Midjourney Medical, AI Talent Wars 2.0, Jake Paul Joins | Derek Thompson, Rene Haas, Robert Slaughter, Rob Reid, Thais Castello Branco, David Senra, Jake Paul & Geoffrey Woo

25:11It's much more complicated than that because curing cancer or actually reducing cancer rates is like a process. It's like an industrial process more than it is a like one neat trick. And do you remember what happened on March 21st back in 2024? March 21st, 2021, 2024. 2024. Oh, was he posting about this? Yeah, David said, TBH, I want to open up a medical imaging division at MidJourney to work on stuff like this. That's so cool. Call the shot. And here it is. Very exciting. Anyway, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches.

25:50What did Noam Shazir see? What did he see? Because Noam Shazir, the legendary AI researcher, formerly of DeepMind, has joined OpenAI. Very exciting news for Noam and OpenAI. He says, I'm excited to share that I'll be joining OpenAI and look forward to working with the exceptional team there. It was a difficult decision to move on. I'm incredibly proud of the amazing team at Google and everything we've built together. It has been an honor and a pleasure to work with all of you. Everyone is very, very excited about this. And Yaxin shares some interesting details here. He says, Gnome Shazir is 6-4.

26:27I don't know if that's true. Just getting right to the important stuff. But I like that we're apocryphally building up our heroes. Yeah, remember the Metis list. Number one on the Metis list. You remember the Metis list, which we released summer of last year during the height of the Talent Wars. Yeah. Co-author of the Transformer T5 Switch Transformer papers, one of the pioneers of sparse MOE models, leaving his VP of engineering, Gemini, co-lead role at Google DeepMind to join OpenAI. Lisan Al-Ghaib says, this is likely the most significant AI talent move of the year. It makes you wonder what's going on at Google.

27:03Only mashed by the next day, Dean Ball joins OpenAI. Tyler, you've been at Ball Nour for a long time. We've had him on the show multiple times. We love Dean, and he's been in the complete opposite camp. He's not an AI researcher. He's policy, a lot of experience there, and had a really even keel, I think, on a lot of the analyses. I think the main thing is he really cares about getting this right as a country. Totally. Right? And he's been critical of almost every company in the space, but only, again, because he cares. What does Jim Cramer think about these moves? Yeah. He posted at 3 a.m. this morning, Noam Shazier, top AI thinker, goes to AI from Google.

27:51Big win for AI. And... Drop the O. Drop the open. Just AI. It's cleaner. It's cleaner. There's close source models anyway. Just call it the AI company, I guess. In other news, Riley Walls did it. He did the unthinkable. He bought a street in San Francisco and auctioned it off and Notion bought it. Now the Notion Way is officially born. I'm so happy that Notion won this. It could have been some crypto thing. It could have gone so odd. It's like high risk. Whenever you turn something loose like this on the internet, it can go a bunch of different ways. Notion Way is not something that I think would be annoyed.

28:34I personally wouldn't be annoyed if like a street corner in my neighborhood was Notion way. It is an ad, but it's a term. Well, you certainly wouldn't be annoyed. I would love it. But it's just a term that feels like it could just be a street name, not something that just feels totally like an ad, like with a.com in there or something. So fantastic performance. Yeah, I remember when Perfect Execution from Riley Walls, I remember talking with him about this idea for the first time. absolutely loved it we we told him like they painted the street too we told him that we'd backstop it yeah basically like if no one bid on it yeah then then we would yeah we were like we're good for like a thousand bucks or something like that no i think it was like i think maybe 10k or whatever the cost was i remember it was like 20s 20 something but we were like we'll backstop it we'll be like the the buyer of last resort if you need that and uh wasn't necessary at all 40k very very interesting they got the blessing of the mayor yeah yeah Daniel Lurie that's very exciting very exciting so go check it out if you're in San Francisco go to the Notion Way and you can also walk on the beautiful mural which turned out fantastically as well like faith in humanity restored here a street in San Francisco painted with what is effectively anonymous internet graffiti and yet everything looks very inoffensive very beautiful It collages very well together.

29:58I think it looks good. I was worried about that too. I was like, ah, if somebody like, you know, just paints it in like, you know, even if it's just like chaotic, messy colors, that's just not fun to have next to you. But this looks like a beautiful quilt of patchwork of interesting designs. It feels like everyone that participated took it seriously and wound up with a really great result here. So good news for everyone involved. Good news for Riley Walls. Our next guest is here, but what do you want to talk about? Before we go to our next guest, Aiden Gomez accidentally became important at work.

30:28I love Aiden Gomez. Can we get him on the show? Ruining his life. We haven't had enough Death Grips fans on the show. Let's throw down so you can see what he's quoting. Really funny thing to post from. Also on the Transformer paper, by the way, Aiden Gomez. They call him Aiden Goatmez for a reason. He's coated. No, I love him. He's fantastic. And he did a podcast episode with 20BC wearing a Death Grips t-shirt. and that was incredible. Anyway, a bunch of other funny things happening at the G7. Apparently Donald Trump had to ask Sam Altman how to adjust his chair up and down, how to use the chair.

31:05And that's got to hurt because you're Sam Altman, you've spent billions, tens of billions of dollars, years of your life, a decade of your life, building a machine that can answer this exact question. Almost any question. You take a picture of the chair, it tells you how exactly to operate it. So to do that right in his face. Right in his face. Just completely reject the premise. Yeah, yeah. And you know on the tip of the tongue, he's like, actually, this is a great opportunity to use ChatGPT. You can use images, upload a photo of that chair. It can go and agentically pull the actual diagrams, the manual from that chair.

31:41It's chair super intelligence. It's chair super intelligence. Mr. President. And Mr. President is just not interested. He's just like, I'm going with a human on this one. And that's why diffusion takes so long. That's why we're in the slow takeoff. Anyway, we have Derek Thompson, co-author of Abundance, host of Plain English, contributing writer at The Atlantic. Derek, how you doing? Good, man. How are you guys doing? We're doing fantastically. Welcome to the show. I'm talking chairs. This is cutting-edge technology. This is what I want. Do you care much about chairs? Are you the kind of guy who, like, obsesses over...

32:16Are you a chair maxer? Are you optimizing your ergonomic workflow? I noticed there's no, there's no, no, no neck support. You could be sitting on a stool. No, no, no. Yeah. No, you got to keep your neck strong. I'll say this. I remember I was in London when I was 18 years old and my best friend and I went there after we graduated from high school and we went to like all the museums and we were looking at like all this like old British shit. And I remember seeing this chair that claimed to have been made in like, I got it. It was like 500 AD BC. And I remember thinking in that moment, it's kind of crazy that chairs have always looked like chairs.

32:54Like, is that a stupid conclusion? Or is that like, like, is it? Like, chairs have always looked exactly like chairs. We haven't really changed the general contour of the chair. There's something about just like the shape of the body. It's like, okay, well, the chair just, like, chairs just have to look. Is this beanbag arrangement? What do you have wrong with big beanbag? I think beanbags are like a cul-de-sac in the history of chair innovation, right? Like we went in the direction of beanbags and then we got up. We actually have a friend who has a beanbag company. From an industrial standpoint, we collectively got up from the beanbag and left it.

33:27I think we've tried to push it. You've seen those setups where you're basically reclined and you're in like a globe. Yeah, it has the screens here and then it leans you back. That's what I'm saying. Why don't we have more chairs that look like circles, right? That's all I'm saying. We've got chairs that look like chairs that are shapes that aren't just this thing that's been the shape of the chair now for thousands of years. I feel like we did that. Like we've done chairs that have those classic right angles. It's time to, you know. This is a big thing. I think it's time to reinvent the chair and the wheel.

33:57Yes, reinvent the wheel too. I mean this is a big like stagnation thesis thing where, you know, it's like where's the new umbrella? Like there's like we – like even not even – And Tyler Cowen traveled to the UK and he looked at 3 ,000-year-old chairs and he was like, that looks like a fucking thing I could buy from Ikea today. Is stagnation a thing? And then suddenly it's the word in all of our lips. Yeah. Anyway, you know what country is not stagnating? They clearly read abundance. It's North Korea. North Korea built 10 ,000 new homes in Pyongyang just last year. That's more than Los Angeles or Chicago.

34:34go, did you airdrop abundance to North Korea? Like, are you behind this? What's going on? Leaflets. There's a lot of conspiracy theories out there about all the various people that are bankrolling abundance. I haven't heard the North Korean dictator conspiracy theory of abundance. I have not spoken to Kim Jong-un. And Un, thank you. I haven't spoken to that administration. But have you looked through the newsletter? Have you checked your sub stack? Give us the link. Where can people sign up if you're a dictator in a foreign country and you want to get the latest? I know exactly what I'm doing after this 30 minutes is over.

35:18You've got to turn on crypto. Search by whatever the etch surname is for North Korean website domains. I'll do that immediately. Okay. Staying on abundance, more seriously, has there been any uptake from American legislators, politicians at the local, state, federal level? Because when abundance dropped, it felt like this is potentially a book that's going to be the foundation of a new political platform and people are going to be running on this and quoting from this. And I'm interested to know if there's been little pockets of action where someone's taken an idea and actually tried to implement it.

36:01Maybe it hasn't passed yet, but you can see the gears are turning. Yeah. I mean, the way that I think I put it on Ezra's show when we did a sort of like one-year retrospective on abundance is like, you know, and other people can disagree, and I'm interested if you disagree. I feel like at the level of nomenclature and vibes, like what one wants from a book, right, you spend a year essentially in isolation hoping that the ideas that you come up with in a dark little room end up infecting a discourse of millions of people that live outside of that room that you'll never meet. And from that standpoint, like people talk about abundance, like for better or worse, right?

36:37Like the concept of an abundance liberal makes sense to people who are both abundance liberals, who are conservative, who are on the socialist left. Like there is an understanding of what the term means. And that is its own kind of mimetic success. So you have that layer of memes, right? And that's not what you asked about. You asked about like real world outcomes. And there I think the record is, I would have to say, honestly, it's mixed. If you were looking for the individual, the elected individual who was the ascendant political talent associated with abundance, it's not entirely clear to me that that person exists in a way that everybody on, say, an abundance group text would name the same person.

37:19Right. Like, obviously, there's aspects of people to judge their abundancy. Gavin Newsom signed a law called the Abundant and Affordable Homes Near Transit Act. Like he not only signed a law that had abundance ideas in it, making it easier to build houses in downtown areas, especially around transit, making it easier to build clean energy without passing through all sorts of NEPA hopscotch efforts. He not only signed it, he named it after the book. So there are success stories like that, and there are absolutely governors like Hochul in New York who I think are not only doing abundancy things but also kind of flying under the radar in how much they're trying to press forward the policy agenda.

37:59On the one hand, those examples exist. And at the same time, I think that in politics, because what gets attention is not just law, it's people, there is a sense that what abundance needs is its champion on a public stage. It's elected champion or presumed to be elected champion on the public stage. And I think that's where, you know, when you write a book, all you control is the book. I can't write a book and make a person. And so I don't know who that person necessarily is yet. But there's a lot of possibilities. And the last thing I would say is this. Why not you? There's no fucking way I'm running for profits.

38:39No way. A couple of things. I'm very short. and I think that especially in a telegenic age I don't think short people can win national elections post-clav era though what about leg extension then I gotta look at a leg extension okay see now we're talking leg extension and I gotta bring my wife into this I'm not entirely sure that I want to be like laid low by whatever kind of recovery process is inherent yeah but you settle down for abundance too before i answer your question seriously can we pause on leg extension do you know people who weren't in the movie materialist who got actual leg extensions like in the oh oh i have somebody that i suspect yes yes yes yes we actually do know someone and you can see it in their gate how can you see it in their gate uh it they walk you know it when you see it you know it doesn't look fluid it doesn't look athletic anymore uh and they're like four inches taller than they used to be do you think overall this person uh would say i do it all over again or would they say i fucked up my gate and i can't run okay probably because for a lot of lifestyles like i mean it's like skipping leg day like it's the more extreme version of skipping leg day it's only doing leg day permanently skip leg day but you gain but in many in many social interactions uh shoulder like like the the shape of your shoulders like is your chest filled out those even like the bicep when you shake someone's hand that's going to be more a more recognizable sign of strength and athleticism than are you are your quads in shape so that you could do a box jump because in a meeting in a business context or even at a bar or even at a concert like you're not presented with an opportunity to show off your explosive leg development, but you can show off your biceps or your shoulder.

40:37I would almost say that in some ways, given how important clips are, podcasts, et cetera, there's actually an opportunity more than any point in the last 50 years to become the short king president. This is the age of shoulders. James Madison was 5 '4", shortest U.S. president. 5 '4", like 95 pounds. James Madison was like Prince. Prince was like Shaq compared to James Madison. It is crazy that that name was the president. I'm just saying, you on a generational podcast tour, your podcast, you're sitting down. I can't tell right now. You could tell me you were John's height. and I can believe it.

41:28All right. 5-8. But we're going to shut the door on me running for president or running for any kind of public office because that is never, ever, ever happening. But the last thing I would say, seriously on the topic of abundance in American politics, is this. It's not lost on me that if you look at some of the more public elections across the country, Democratic Socialists are... They won mayor in New York City. There's a former slash DSA associated. candidate who's in the runoff in Los Angeles. A DSA candidate just won the Democratic primary in Washington, D.C. Democratic Socialist just won in Seattle.

42:06So there's a way in which you can say, looking across the country, like, wow, like, socialists are really having a moment in American cities. But something interesting is happening, like, behind the scenes, which is that I've either spoken to or spoken to, like, meeting advisors for all these people. Like, I've spoken Mamdani personally, I know people who are on his housing council, have met with and been at events with the mayor of Seattle. And like, there's ways in which I think abundance is winning arguments behind the scenes, even if the people that we see elected are like, what's the headline?

42:41Democratic Socialists, Soren Mamdani won the mayoral election in New York. And so there's a way in which I think optimistically you could say abundance is killing lots of people, even if the general public wouldn't identify those people as abundance liberals. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I think that there's been some consensus that like the, the, the aesthetically socialist has tacked to more of like the abundance agenda when elected, because maybe that's just more pragmatic. Maybe there's more of an alliance there that people thought you spar as you lead up to the election. And then when you get in, you're more pragmatic, which I think is probably good for everyone.

43:21What's the old Cuomo line? You campaign and poetry govern in prose. Yeah. If campaign and populism govern in abundance turns out to be the reality for certain Democrats, that's certainly not like the worst and darkest possible timeline. The North Korea way. I'm just kidding. You're not going to endorse that. Campaign on complete totalitarianism and run on abundance. No, self-enhancement. America's Cult of Self-Enhancement. There's been, it feels like Clavicular really like broke through to the mainstream and introduced a little bit of this. But how have you processed the latest run of this? Because self-enhancement has been going on forever.

43:59Like what's new? What's now? What sparked your recent essay on it? Like why did you want to write about it at this moment in time? Well, it's just a lot of things are happening at once. A lot of things are happening at once, and I wanted to draw a circle around these things and try to name it, right? You've got the Luxmaxing phenomenon of clavicular width, which there's a way in which I almost see that as a microwave that's crested. Like clavicular, I bet, like Google Trends is not exactly on the right side of that mountain. But you think about like peptide stacking. You think about GLP-1s, which are going to go crazy when retitrutide, the third generation GLP-1 drug from Eli Lilly, comes out.

44:37You think about the fact that TRT, testosterone replacement therapy, is going berserk, that preventative plastic surgery like Botox is getting younger and younger in terms of its average age of user. You look at the fact that according to both the American Time News Survey and gym associations, the number of people who are members of gyms is at an all-time high. And the amount of time that people self-report working out every week is also at its highest level in any period in American history. Like something's clearly happening in terms of America's changed relationship with health. It's almost as if health itself, which used to live or has in various periods of American sort of cultural history, lived a little bit outside of pop culture, is now becoming like an integral part of culture itself.

45:31And I'm really interested in this for a couple reasons. I'm interested in what drives it. I'm interested in its extremes and people like Brian Johnson, who say not only do I want to live longer and be healthier, my goal is to not die at all. But I'm also interested in what it does to us as people, how it changes our relationship to our bodies. So just two observations here. One is that I have an Oura Ring right here. I like it. I think it's improved my health. It's improved my fitness. And it's helped me sleep better. But I also sometimes can't help fall into this relationship with my Oura Ring where I am making decisions about my daily activity to optimize my Oura Ring scores rather than to do things that can't be measured.

46:12So if I have a really good time with a friend at 9.30 p.m., that can't be measured in my Oura Ring data. There's no dashboard I can look at on my phone and say I had a really good time with my friend and he appreciated my presence. But like the Oura Ring will say, you stayed up too late and now your HRV sucks. So I think there's ways in which sometimes these technologies, this sort of biometric dashboard we can build for ourselves, replaces the hard question of how should I live with the easy question of what should I optimize that is observable? It's a little bit of Gerhard's law. Make number go up, precisely.

46:46So that's one thing I'm interested in. But the other thing I'm interested in that I think might be, you know, certainly I think of your audience as being the bullseye of this. Let me get this from a kind of weird angle. Alfred Chandler is an historian who wrote a book called The Visible Hand about the invention of managerial capitalism in the 19th century. And he said what happened is the telegraph and the train created enormous information flows that couldn't be managed by 18th century corporations. And so we had to invent this job to manage those information flows. And the name of that job was the middle manager.

47:21And so it was the telegraph and the train and the profusion of information that was created by the speed of product moving around the country that created the need for managerial capitalism. In a similar way, I think biometric capitalism, as you can think of it, creates the need for individuals to essentially serve as the chief executive of the self. We are faced with all of this data about what we're doing every day, how we're sleeping, how much calories we're burning, what our VO2 max is, how much zone two time we spent training yesterday. And what role does overseeing all this information cast us in?

47:59It casts us in the role of the manager, just like in the 19th century. And so in a way, I think when I say our approach to health is changing things that are more complicated than just, oh, everyone's talking about health these days, I do think it changes our relationship with the body to essentially assume this role of like the CEO of the self. And finally, and I'll stop, it changes our relationship to leisure too. Because typically in a sort of traditional setup, you go to work and you think about being productive. And then you leave work and you have downtime. And you don't think about downtime being productive until you can see on your dashboards exactly how you spent that downtime.

48:37How did you sleep? How much VO2 time did you spend? Excuse me, how much zone two time did you spend during your workout? So suddenly this productivity mindset that used to be contained to work is now leaking into our downtime as well and getting us to think about, again, our bodies as this kind of machine that we are, in which we're cast in the role of a CEO to optimize. I just think that's like an interesting way that we're alive today. I think it's just interesting to think about how our experience of life is different than in previous decades. And I think that these trends in health do make the experience of life different than it used to be.

49:15Did you see the Nat Friedman talk where he describes using OpenClaw and an AI agent to monitor his water intake? And it uses cameras, which apparently he has inside of his house, which is not very common. Most people have security cameras outside. He has cameras inside his house. And it told him, go to the sink and drink a glass of water right now. He did it. And then it sent him a message saying, like, good boy, basically. but it's just very funny because in that scenario, it's like, he's not even the CEO of his life anymore. He's like, he's like the line worker. I don't know. Yeah. Well, he's, he's, he's delegated the job of the CEO to the, to the AI that then just tells him like, you have to go to the gym.

49:59He doesn't even make the decision. I would say he's a very modern CEO. Okay. You guys have talked with all these people about how like the modern executive or modern manager's job is sandwiching. Right. So it's like you give the large language model or whatever AI system it is. You are the bottom layer of the sandwich. You give the AI model an input, and then it gives you an output, and then you act in that output. So you are the bread that is sandwiching the work of the AI model. It seems to me, without talking to Nat in this particular case, that's what he's doing. He decided, I'm going to design an hectological system to optimize my water intake.

50:34He designed that system, and now he's on both sides of it. So in a way, I think he is acting as a very modern chief executive, even using this sort of AI sandwiching function. Yeah, I was talking yesterday or maybe the day before on the show around when I was, I got to a point when I was probably 19 or 20 that I felt I was using up all of my executive function budget on my own health, right? I'd wake up, I would have a protein shake, I would go to the gym for two hours, I would sauna, I would have like the perfect breakfast, and I was like cramming all of this like really high effort activity into this period before 9am when I had ultimately coming out of that had accomplished like nothing that actually moved my life forward, right?

51:25I could have just like gone around and like walked, you know, a couple miles and, and it would have had the same sort of impact on my life. And I think that that is, um, that's certainly a trap that I think you could argue that a huge amount of the world is falling into right now, or at least like certainly in like Los Angeles and California, New York, coastal cities where, you know, how much of your, how much of your intelligence are you putting into something just to make modern life bearable, right? Just to make sending the five, just so you have enough energy to send the five emails a day that really matter, that move your work forward.

52:07I just think some people are certainly in that camp, but then there's the other side of it, which is the optimization is this game that is rewarding in and of itself. And so it's the min-maxing. The maxing is enjoyable in the same way that you can max out stats in a video game or even in business or optimize whatever. But people enjoy these optimization games. So I'm not surprised to see that people get the enjoyment today from optimizing a life that they never really put to use. They might have the most incredible athletic performance. Are they ever going to go out and hunt a deer with their bare hands?

52:46No, but the process of maxing was what was satisfying to them. Well, the word game, I think, is apt here. And it's funny that in this case, to extend the metaphor, the game board is the body that we're playing on. The philosopher C.T. Nguyen, who was on my show a few months ago, had this lovely line where he said, I used to think that there was no difference between a goal and a purpose in a game. But then I realized that if you're playing a board game with friends, the goal is to win, but the purpose is to have fun. The goal is the thing that's measurable. The purpose is the thing that might be ineffable, but is more important.

53:28To win but not have fun is an experience that on reflection, a minute later, an hour later, a day later, you're going to regret. And so I do, writing this essay is a part of my trying to reconcile an experience that's very much like the one Geordi described, where on the one hand, I do want to optimize my health. I don't want to die early. I mean, on a personal note, both my parents died of cancers when I was in my 20s. So when, you know, they didn't live to see, to meet my wife. They didn't live to meet my sister's husband. They didn't dance at our weddings. And so I am not one of these people who looks at folks like Brian Johnson or Andrew Huberman and says this obsession with health and life extension.

54:14It's inhuman. It's like, no, what's inhuman, what's truly terrible is the premature death that means that my daughter knows her grandmother as a photograph rather than as a grandmother. That's terrible. So this is progress. The focus on health is progress. But I do think it's just worth pointing out that this generation of personal, individuated health obsession is not like other generations of health movements in American history. The prohibition movement, the temperance movement, a movement in the 19th century in the UK that I learned about called muscular Christianity, which is basically just what it sounds like, New Testament values, huge biceps.

54:57El Segundo. El Segundo. Those were movements about national change. Love them or hate them, they were trying to change the world. When you're playing a self-optimizing game around getting those aura numbers, the only game you're playing is to raise the numbers for yourself. And that's an important distinction. Well, yeah, I do wonder if this health obsession will further reduce the birth rate. I was about to transition to that. Yes. Phones are clearly like cigarettes for your mind. They have some utility, just like a cigarette does. A cigarette can kind of make you relaxed or a little bit focused, whatever it is.

55:47But it's certainly bad for you overall. phones to be seem to be bad for a number of reasons um and i do think it's funny you know like biohacking and you know making the number go up is like totally at odds with like parenting in so many ways like you could be i'm on a six like you'll never meet a parent that has children under five that's like oh yeah five nights six months old so let's let's not even talk about my or a sleep switch for the last six months. Yeah, so I had a... But that's not the purpose. A friend of ours texted us over the weekend and said, after having a kid, it's just so funny to think about single people taking a vacation to unwind.

56:32Unwind from what? Sleeping in? No, but I do, but, you know, when you think of, and I think back to the Stephen Bartlett viral moment where he's talking about having a couple glasses of wine. The drink he got that knocked him out for three days, yeah. And just thinking like, wow, parenting is going to be really rough for someone that gets that thrown off from a couple drinks because you don't really get to decide. From midnight to 2.30 a.m., you might be up like three times a week. And people have built their lives so that that never happens, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, I, you know, I, I remember I was interacting with some tweet from, I don't remember if it was Brian Johnson or someone else sort of of that ilk.

57:20And they were talking about, you know, all the various things in life, staying up a little too late, you know, flying across time zones that had some effect on their cardiometabolic data. And I said, you know, there's, there's a version of this approach to life that is literally anti-human because imagine doing this analysis of childbirth. You know what happens when you have a one-month-old at home? I mean, you ask who you do because you're reciting it. Your sleep goes to shit. You don't see people the same way you used to. So your social life goes down. You eat like crap. The risk of depression, anxiety, even postpartum psychosis skyrockets.

58:02If you just looked at the biometric data of new parents and your only attitude in life was make number go up you would have to conclude you would have to conclude that having children is horrendous for the human race but like life is complicated and yeah the other thing psychologists you've seen the data that shows that i think women that have uh kids you know later in their 30s uh are much live live longer like significantly longer is what i was getting um the psychologist darby saxby had this really interesting point in her new book, Dad Brain, where she pointed out that new parent brains tend to suffer trauma when their kids are born.

58:41But if you look at parental brains decades later, they tend to have more neural connections and they tend to be richer. And in fact, there's been research done out of Northwestern University that found that so-called super-agers, people in their 80s and 90s that have the memory of someone in their 50s and 60s, The thing that correlates most strongly with being a super ager and having great, great attentional capacity and memory in those later years is social connection, which evolutionarily makes kind of sense. Like maybe early memory, early language was just for gossip before we were inventing calculus and artificial intelligence.

59:16And so it would make sense that the strongest brains were the brains designed to keep track of who in the tribe was nuts and who in the tribe was helpful and who was an asshole and who was kind. And so I think it's, if you're going to think about this scientifically, if you're going to go the science route to sort of science your way toward a theory of the purpose of life, like pay attention to the whole body of research and don't just look at the dashboard on your phone because that's capturing such a tiny, tiny amount of the bigger picture. Yeah, I completely agree. We got to do this more often.

59:48This is so much fun. Needed more time. We needed more time. But thank you so much for taking the time. I'll see you guys. Have a great rest of your week. Have a great weekend. Thanks. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. Our next guest is the CEO of Arm Holdings, Rene Haas. His first time on the show, but we're very excited to have him on to talk about expanding the Arm's business beyond the CPU IP that they're known and loved for.

1:00:22Everyone's used an Arm-based CPU. for one thing or another, probably everything in their life, but now they're getting into chip making and designing their own chips. ARM partners have shipped more than 350 billion chips. So many, more than 22 million developers build on the ARM platform. Rene has been with ARM since 2013, so very interested to hear about his journey over the last 13 years. You have to imagine this is the most exciting moment in probably his entire career, certainly the arm story, but we'll bring him into the TBP and Ultradome and ask him directly. Rene, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.

1:01:04Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, my pleasure. Yeah, thank you. I'm doing well. How are you both doing? We're doing great. Fantastically. It's an incredibly exciting time. Shout out to your team. This audio video setup is perfect. We talk to a lot of people. people like to go hard visually something that looks great but then they'll miss the audio you did both quite well so I appreciate it we have a great team here we hijacked a conference room and turned it into a little mini studio here so glad to see it's paid off I love it we were just reflecting on the fact that it's an exciting time for us we cover the news, we cover AI there's so much going on you've been with ARM for 13 years is that correct?

1:01:48That's right. Is this the most exciting year? Is this the most exciting moment of your career? How else are you contextualizing what it means to be in this particular moment? Gosh, I would say, having been in the tech industry my entire career, it's probably the most exciting time. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, artificial intelligence and the idea of machines that can think like humans, that's Star Trek-type stuff. So if you grew up watching science fiction, and I remember I think one of the very first movies my dad took me to was 2001, A Space Odyssey. We're kind of living that life now. And it's one of those things I know my compatriots have said the same, that you knew it was coming, but you didn't know if you'd had a chance to work on it in your lifetime.

1:02:33So, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, yeah. Now it's here. Talk to me about how you process the AI boom. There's been a couple of distillations of the progress. You have the ChatGPT moment, the reasoning moment, the coding agent moment. As each of those moments happened, how did your business change? How did your perception of the AI boom change? And then at what point did you realize that you needed to expand the strategy, change the strategy? How deliberate were you along the last three years, four years, as we've seen these sort of tectonic shifts in the capabilities of AI systems? Yeah, one of the things, you know, in our industry that has been almost like a force that you cannot stop is the need for more storage or more memory or more compute, right?

1:03:25There's just something, whether it's an end application, a new product that just drives that need. AI is almost the monster that can eat almost unlimited amount of memory, unlimited amount of storage, and unlimited amount of compute just simply because of the raw amount of computation that's required, the amount of data that's needed, the amount of intelligence that you're generating, and the tokens, et cetera, et cetera. So what we've seen over the last just number of years, as everyone in our industry has, is this sudden huge tailwind of how much is enough. And we don't seem to be hitting that point yet.

1:04:04And I was in Computex a couple of weeks ago and met with folks in the industry. And I remember talking to some of the guys at TSMC. And they said, we've never seen a cycle where it's this good for this many years. Something's got to change. but we've never quite seen artificial intelligence at the level we're seeing it. And it still feels very, very early. I know a lot of people say that in the sense of, to your point, the chat GPT moment, the Claude Kud moment, the co-work moment. But still, there's lots and lots of industries that haven't even scratched the surface. So it's still, amazingly, even given all the tailwinds, still seems very, very early.

1:04:41I can intuit or at least guess at what the crunch at TSMC feels like. It's incredible demand from every supplier, sharp elbows from probably everyone who's trying to get line time, and a lot of people working late nights making sure that the machines are running, that the fabs are delivering at high quality consistently. But what is the shape of a crunch at ARM during a boom like this? Is it different? And then I imagine maybe take me through what the next couple of years will look like and how different pieces of the business will scale to react to different bottlenecks, different opportunities, different supply, just demand increasing broadly.

1:05:29Yeah. So it's a very, very important question because it's changed a bit for us. When we were seeing all of this growth and demand in the prior years or in previous growth periods, we would feel the crunch in terms of our end customers saying, we're limited by this, we're limited by that, demand is really strong. Our business model on the IP side is all about a licensing fee up front, and then we collect the royalty on chip shipped. That all kind of changed for us at the end of March when we announced our first product. So now we are in We are in that soup as well. We have huge, huge demand for the product, which is an ARM AGI CPU, driven by, somewhat selfishly, it's a great product.

1:06:17It's 2X to performance at the same power as the competition. But also with all this takeoff of Vigentic demand and all these agents that essentially spawn off workloads, CPUs do a lot of that work. There's been a huge demand for CPUs. So we were fortunate in terms of timing of announcing that product. But yes, just like everyone else now in that world, we're looking for all kinds of avenues to find increased supply because demand is extremely strong. So, yeah, to your question, we feel it on both sides. We feel it from our end customers on the IP side who are trying to ship as much as possible.

1:06:54And then ourselves because we've got our own end customers that are really, really pushing us for supply. So when you're getting into your new own chip business, what changes for you? Are you a fan of founder mode? Is this something where you're clearing your schedule so that you can spend more time on that new growing division, that new opportunity? Are you bringing in a new team? Are you shuffling folks around in the organization who you know can deliver on this new initiative? What is your managerial philosophy for delivering on that? Yeah, you know, I've had a fortunate opportunity in my career to work for a lot of founders directly.

1:07:36Probably, if I just think back now over the last 25 years, I've kind of, I've not been a founder myself, but I've worked directly for founders, whether it was early startup companies, then a bunch of time at NVIDIA working for Jensen, and then at SoftBank, who owns Arm, you know, Moss is a founder. And what I found for myself personally is that is probably the style that resonates best with me personally. So what does that mean in terms of data activity? Am I in the meetings with the operations guys figuring out where the supply is coming from? Absolutely. Am I thinking really, really hard about what we want to do next in terms of product and can we get the supply and can we be strategic to a number of different customers?

1:08:18Absolutely. Did we bring in new people with new skill sets and new capabilities to help us there? Yes, we had to. You know, building chips is not the same as building IP. You need people who can do back-end design, customer validation, supporting customers. You need operations folks that can work downstream. So we knew we needed to do all that. I had done a lot of that in my past and previous jobs and careers, so I had a good sense of what was required, and as importantly, I had a really good team around me that also folks who came from that world. So, yes, high degree of focus, and I don't know if I would say I've gone into full founder mode, but that's kind of how I operate, I think, intrinsically.

1:08:59And as you get on in your career, you start to find out what are the environments that not only resonate with you, but you can thrive in. And then, for me, that's definitely one. We talked about this interesting phenomenon in AI where with 2020 hindsight, you can look back and see that the Chachapiti moment was a turning point cloud code, as you mentioned, reasoning models. There's these unlocks that feel binary in hindsight, and they sort of blur together as they're happening. But a couple months later, you can see that there's some sort of takeoff. Do you have a vision of what we're waiting for for the next one?

1:09:38Or are you more zoomed out looking at broader trends, sort of straight lines on log graphs, and you see that capability will come as compute scales? I think it's a little bit the latter. I mean, people like to look at the chat GPT moment or the Claude Code moment, and maybe that's mile marker six in the marathon or mile marker eight. But actually what they are is proof points of scaling, that the more compute you can apply to the problem, the more sophisticated the level of problem that you can solve. And that's what I think we are seeing on all levels. So I don't think there's another aha moment.

1:10:18You know, people talk about AGI or ASI or things of that nature. I think what you're starting to see is for some of these models, for example, or some of these applications, we don't have the data sets in the Internet to solve them. And these are like science problems, right, engineering problems. Yet using the compute and models to create synthetic data to help you solve these complex engineering problems that you can't find on the Internet, that could be the next thing, if you will. So I don't know that there's another end quote moment ahead of us. I think what we have seen so far is that the law of scaling has not been defied.

1:10:58And the more compute you can apply to these problems and the more power that's required for that and everything around it, we get greater and greater benefits. I'm interested to hear how AI is changing chip design specifically, like the actual work that your team does on a day-to-day basis. but I'd also like a little bit of a primer on just computer-aided design through your tenure, because it's not like it was pencil and paper three years ago, and now it's a single prompt, make a great CPU. So I imagine it feels probably a little bit smoother to you, but there's a lot of excitement about AI actually designing chips.

1:11:40Where are we on that trend? Where were we 10 years ago? Yeah, I remember, I was smiling when you said that. I think I remember my first job out of TI, we actually had, I think, four-foot-by-four-foot tables where we would actually lay out printed copies of the actual chip itself to look at the layouts from a transistor level, trying to figure out exactly what we had done from a design standpoint. And that was before the workstations really had a lot of sophistication to do automated design. People talked about CAD and CAM of that nature. Now, when you get to the billions of transistors on a chip, there's no way you're printing that stuff out, et cetera, et cetera.

1:12:19You know, chip design is pretty interesting. You know, on one level, it's code. In other words, when you write a piece of software to describe what a circuit's doing, that's a piece of software we use, or the industry uses something called Verilog to describe what RTL is, which is a different version of a Python or C, if you will. But chip design is a multidimensional problem. You can write RTL and Verilog, and it can be functionally correct. I can do an adder or a multiplier or a certain level of circuit. But to get that to operate at a certain frequency, consuming a certain level of power, and then occupying the smallest set of millimeters on a piece of silicon, that's still a very hard problem.

1:13:07So the industry isn't there yet in terms of being able to use those tools. Essentially, the nirvana would be I come up with an idea, I press a button, and I can go tape it out at TSMC, right? That is sort of the nirvana. And will we get there at some point in time? Most likely, we will. We're a ways away because the data sets aren't quite correct, and we don't have the good closed-loop systems, but we'll get there. But where it's helping in chip design are things like, let me back up and just say, in chip design, a lot of the work actually is not in designing the circuits. It's actually in verifying the circuits.

1:13:45It's in bug checks. It's in validation. And AI helps a lot there. AI can do a great job in terms of triaging bugs. Engineer will do a run over a weekend and come back on a Monday and see where the bugs are and triage them and fix them. In the AI world, that can all happen automatically. AI can not only order the bugs in terms of the high-priority bugs, but in some cases can fix them. So we are seeing that today. We are absolutely seeing the benefit of AI helping us design chips faster, to get bugs out quicker, to help us in the validation process, which is super important because these chips are getting bigger and bigger.

1:14:31The bigger they get, the more complicated they are to build, the longer it takes. So it's a little bit like running uphill against a treadmill. We're running fast, but the chips are getting hard, so it's not like we've shaved chip development times in half yet. But without the tools, I think it would be longer to develop. So we're certainly seeing benefit. A bit of a more anodyne question, but where else is AI permeating within ARM holdings? I'm interested to know, like, you have license fees. Are there AI agents making sure that invoices get paid appropriately, like customer support? Even just, you know, you probably have a ton of documentation.

1:15:10Have you wrapped that in an LLM? Like, there's a bunch of, like, you know, very basic use cases for AI that you see propagate through all sorts of businesses. How have you thought about adopting AI outside of the core context? All over the place. I would say probably 85 % to 90 % of the company is using it in some way, shape, or form. We use it in legal, for example, to look at contracts, to do inputs and checks against our standard terms and conditions. It's very, very fast. finance teams uses it for all different kinds of functions. One of the more interesting ones that we use it for is, so on our IP business, we collect a royalty for every chip shipped.

1:15:53We have a quirk in our financial model in that we have to every quarter accrue for the royalties that we think will come in the next quarter. So it's a forecasting tool. And that forecasting tool is almost like a GDP hedge fund where we're trying to look at macroeconomic indicators, what's going on in terms of certain markets. We use AI to help us rationalize what our predictions are. And it's very, very good when we report the royalties at the end of a quarter. And then the following quarter, we do something which is called a true up. In other words, where we were wrong and where the error bars were.

1:16:31And I tell you, AI makes the forecast really, really well. And then And just something anecdotally, you might be sitting in a meeting where you're brainstorming about different ideas and you're trying to figure out what's the size of this market or who's shipped this much volume into this area or is someone using this type of substrate. You know, in the past, that would be, we'll go look this up offline and get some answers. People are using ChatGPT or Claude or any of those tools real time in a meeting, and you just get answers much more quickly. And by the way, it's not necessarily that it's 100 % right answer each time, but it's 80 % to 90 % close enough that you can start making decisions.

1:17:09So we use it everywhere, and I use it all the time. Of course. How are you thinking about more farther out opportunities or technologies? I'm interested to know if you have a view on these wafer scale ASICs or even quantum computing. Is there something where you're starting an investigatory R &D process to see if there's at least an integration in the future, if not an indigenous R &D effort? Yeah. We were talking earlier about, is this the most exciting time in the industry? And there was a time 20 years ago when semiconductors were not seen as the next growth engine, and a lot of the investment and growth went into other areas.

1:17:51Because now, not only is there amazing opportunity for what you just described, whether it's wafer-scale compute or in-memory compute or different computer architectures, but everything around material sciences, different components, whether it's co-packaged optics, whether it's a different type of copper. The system is the computer. And you have to think about everything that goes into it relative to how you maximize performance. So even things, believe it or not, like efficiency of turbines and efficiency of gas engines and everything goes into building out power plants because everything in the supply chain suddenly matters.

1:18:36And the resiliency of the power matters. Everything can't come off the grid if you're using alternative power sources. What does that mean in terms of interruption of supply? What does that mean in terms of reliability and sustainability of the systems? So it's probably a long way of saying that there's investment opportunities not just in the chip space, but in everything that surrounds it. Because now the entire system becomes an opportunity for innovation. And at Arm, yes, we have an investment profile. We also work very closely with our parent company, SoftBank, in terms of looking at the investment opportunities there.

1:19:14On SoftBank, what was your first meeting with Masa like? That was back in 2016 when they just had announced the purchase. So, gosh, that was 10-plus years ago. And his vision for Arm at that time was a little different than what we're doing now. But he had a big belief back then in terms of the world is going to need a trillion connected devices and everything needs to be connected on security and software and such. But my first impression of him, and I had not met him before, but obviously had known and heard of him, was he has a lot of big ideas. And he's been consistent on that for the last 10 years.

1:19:53So is part of your role like the translation layer between that unbridled optimism and the pragmatism that needs to keep a business running? Like how do you see your role in the SoftBank organization? That's a good description of it, I think, at a high level. I think the reason it works well is that I share Masa's ambition. I admire the big, bold views. I like big bets myself. He's really, really good at looking around corners and thinking about what are the big trends 10 years from now, and then how do we act on it quickly. So where I think I fit in is I align with that, but I'm also an operator.

1:20:41I'm on the ground running a company and have put out products and solved engineering problems, et cetera, et cetera. So it's thinking about, okay, how do we take those and make those into realistic plans that we can execute on?

1:20:56Where should we go next? Jordy, do you have anything you need to move on to? Please.

1:21:04I'm interested to hear more about your path to becoming CEO. Yeah, that's a good advice.

1:21:13Was it always on your mood board? What were the key steps? Just advice for people who want to be in this position one day. We meet a lot with new employees, and I do get that question a lot. Was the CEO job something that you always aspired to? And I would say that was really probably not the case. Again, having in the last 25 years worked really closely with founders, if I kind of look back in terms of what that experience was and how it got me here, first off, I was always interested in not only doing something that made a big, big difference, but I always had an intellectual curiosity to doing lots of different things.

1:21:55So I've done probably almost every single job that exists in kind of the semiconductor world. I've been an FAE. I've been a design engineer. I've been in sales. I've been a GM. I've been in marketing. I've done kind of all these jobs, not because I was trying to fill out a checkbox and said, okay, here are the eight things I need to become a CEO. It was more a function of I'm really curious to learn about these disciplines and learning more about how things all kind of come together. So what turned out is I was gaining more and more experience and more and more of those skills and working around great people like Masa and Jensen.

1:22:31I just started to learn a lot and became a sponge for all of that. So when the time came for me to take this role, I felt very ready for it because I had watched CEOs do the work. I had done a lot of different work. Clearly, it's a different job. When you're the CEO, your jokes are a lot funnier. People always say hello to you in the halls and stuff. Sure. And you feel a different sense of responsibility, accountability for what's going on. But more broadly speaking, I think I was very, very lucky in that everything I had done up to my becoming a CEO had really kind of helped me get there. And then what I tell young folks is get as much exposure as you can to as many things as you can.

1:23:12The one thing that I've always found that was a trait in great people was curiosity and never stopping to learn. Because if you're never stopping to learn and you're quite curious, you'll probably land in a pretty good place. What is your approach to creating your own sort of model for what the world will look like in two to three years? The pace of progress over the last three years has been, you know, really aggressive. But at the same time, you can consistently go back and look at people's predictions, a handful of people's predictions in 2023 and let's say 2024 that have turned out to be almost perfectly accurate.

1:23:55And so I'm curious how you kind of curate information sources to try to build an accurate model of what the industry will look like in two, three, four years. beyond that, it's probably much harder, but what's the approach? Because everyone's sort of like selling something that you're interacting with, and your job as CEO is to try to actually figure out what the world will look like so that you can build against it. We're in a very fortunate place in the business that we run in that we're sort of at the center of the universe. What do I mean by that? ARM's core business is compute. We do CPUs.

1:24:40CPUs are table stakes. Every digital product needs a CPU, no matter what it is, whether it's the smallest device that fits in your ear or wearable or these giant data centers. ARM is the most ubiquitous CPU platform ever invented. You guys were chatting to being the platform, over 350 billion devices have shipped based on ARM. So what we have inside our company is almost like a control tower view of the entire industry, right? We see everything, we talk to everyone, and as a result, we have kind of an amazing perspective in terms of where the direction of travel is going. And I think back maybe to your question in terms of how do we do and think about that.

1:25:31Because we have that view and vision and the products that we are working on, the stuff that's in the roadmap, it's not unusual to be sitting in a meeting and we're talking about the product that's going to be coming out in 2030, 2031, 2032. It's just the nature of what we have to do in terms of the business. So, we have a really good view on that. And what we tend to try to look at is these gigantic macro trends. But some of the things always tend to stick, right? In terms of people, efficiency matters. Low power matters. Compute matters. And when I say low power matters, it doesn't mean everything needs to run out of battery.

1:26:12But ultimately, you can't continue to have all these parameters go up and to the right because the costs get into play, thermal economics get into play, et cetera, et cetera. It's almost like a Bezos approach where he has some line, he can't predict the future, but he knows that customers are going to want things faster and cheaper. Yeah, I think that's a good way to describe it. Those macro trends don't change. If we were having this discussion in 2000, that's still a valid comment. Now, 2000, we'd be talking about, oh, the internet is going to explode and we're going to have to build all this fiber, we need all these lasers, et cetera, et cetera.

1:26:56It's subsided, but the internet obviously is foundational in everything we do today. And AI is kind of the same. I mean, it's almost a utility, right? It will be something that will be used by everything, everywhere, by everyone. But gravity will still apply, right? People are going to want to make sure it's efficient. They're going to want to make sure it's economical, and they're going to want to make sure they're getting benefit from it. So when you think about product development, you have to have that kind of sensibility that makes sure that you're delivering on that. What are you expecting from robotics broadly over the next two to three years?

1:27:33I imagine you're able to look in some of these customer segments and maybe see areas that represent less than 1 % of revenue starting to maybe grow at a faster clip. But I think people are asking, like, when are we going to have the chat GBT of robotics, which I think people just bucket like a humanoid that can be economically valuable or have some like utility. But it's probably much more likely that it's possible it's already happened, like in an industrial setting and it just it's going to look different. But what are you kind of predicting before 2030, let's say, in robotics broadly based on what you're seeing?

1:28:182030 might be a good tipping point. I think it's going to take a little longer than we think, and it'll be bigger than we think. And by that, I mean the business models I think will need to be worked out. I think robots as a service is probably more viable than buying fixed$100 ,000 robots. The bill of materials on those will come down, but at the end of the day, there's just a lot of parts. There's motors, there's actuators, there's computers. You're not going to be able to make one, I think, that's going to be$4 ,000, for example. But can you provide them at a cost where it can be a very, very good replacement in certain areas for human labor in terms of what you're paying per year and have it subsidized?

1:29:04Yeah, I think that's quite real. And I do think, you know, it's a hard problem to solve, right? Because one of the hardest problems around robots with AI is our fingers, right? Our fingers are unbelievably good at what they do in terms of sensing, applying the right level of pressure, being able to pick up a phone or pick up a 20-pound weight or picking up a needle to thread a needle. That, for a robot, is a lot of work relative to sensors. It's a lot of work relative to motors. It's a lot of work relative to ambidextry. But it will be a solved problem. And when it becomes a solved problem, it's going to be transformational.

1:29:48I mean, you think about infrastructure projects, right? Just looking at the amount of time it takes for road work or putting up bridges and anything around those spaces. You know, just look in the United States, the amount of infrastructure that needs replacement. And you can't find the people to do the work, right? They're very, very hard skills to go off and do that. Once you start to put real automation in place around that, it's going to be hugely transformational. So I think it'll take a little longer than people think. We see a lot of amazing stuff with humanoids and dancing robots, et cetera, et cetera.

1:30:23But it will be bigger than people anticipate. I think it will be gigantic. Staying in the control tower of the AI build-out, the global economy, Where are you focused on outside of your core business in terms of potential bottlenecks? We've been going back and forth on is it fabrication? Is it energy? Is it permitting, powered shells, memory? There's been so many different bottlenecks that have sort of popped up, and there's been a lot of excitement. And that feels like an opportunity for America or the world to focus on alleviating a bottleneck when it comes out. You're helping a lot with what you're doing.

1:31:00But what else is top of mind for you as you view the potential bottlenecks to just scaling AI? You hit on all big ones, and they're all challenging, right? I think logic is a challenge. Memory is certainly a challenge. All the things that you mentioned. I think it is a fantastic opportunity on the flip side for the United States to be able to invest in manufacturing and support of these infrastructures. I know there's been a lot of backlash, for example, about these giant data centers being built and communities not wanting data centers in their area. And then some people look at the data centers and say, oh, these data centers are so giant and they don't actually employ a lot of workers.

1:31:46They're just giant Costco's with whirring motors inside. But I would argue that while that may seem to be true in terms of when the operation is completed, the ecosystem that gets created by building out these data centers is immense. And if you can have the entire supply chain, whether it's, again, around the motors, the turbines, the air conditioning, the chillers, the chips, if the United States can put that all in such a way that it's going to be all vertically integrated, that's huge, huge job opportunities for us. I read some of this in an op-ed about 71 % of folks are kind of against data centers.

1:32:32And I was thinking to myself, gosh, this reminds me of almost back when the U.S. had most of the semiconductor fabs in the world 30, 40 years ago. And people weren't complaining about fabs per se, but there were a lot of complaints about the chemicals and things of that nature. And then you had labor shortages. And next thing you know, 35 years later, every advanced fab, whether it's memory or whether it's logic, is not inside the United States. And I would say just on these supply shortages, which we have now, which are real, I think it's a great opportunity for the United States to really boost up domestic manufacturing.

1:33:09And not just, again, like I said, around the data centers, but the ecosystem around it. If you think about the automobile industry, one of the powers that that drove for the U.S. industry was the huge supply chain around automobiles that created lots and lots of jobs. I think data centers are similar. Yeah, yeah. It's always been— Yeah, good point. People point to Flint, Michigan as a place where water was contaminated. But if you trace back through the Flint, Michigan story, it is the departure of the General Motors plant in Michigan that actually led to all the renegotiations about where the water would come from and ultimately the degradation of the local water supply.

1:33:48It's sort of the flip of once the businesses pull out and the local economy stagnates, then you wind up with the environmental problems in an odd twist. And it's super hard to bring them back once they go. Yep, 100%. I like it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. We went over time, but this is a great conversation. Yeah, thanks for hanging out. We really appreciate you taking the time. Have a great rest of your week. We'll talk to you soon, René. Cheers. Thank you so much. Goodbye. Let me tell you about console.com. Console builds AI agents that automate 70 % of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets.

1:34:26And without further ado, we are going to re-industrialize. We couldn't be there in person, but we have a correspondent on the ground. How are you doing? Welcome back. I'm doing great. How are you guys? Good to see you. Take us through it. Quick reintroduction on yourself, the company, but then tell us about how Reindustrialize is going. We were just talking about Michigan, actually. Yeah. So I'm Rob Slaughter, co-founder and CEO of Defense Unicorns. Defense Unicorns, what's a big idea? It's all about getting software to war fighters. People don't realize how hard it is to get modern software capabilities on a lot of the military assets.

1:35:00And what we've done as a company is build an entire tech stack from the ground up and just made it easy. Yeah. What's the mood on the ground like? Take us through Reindustrialize. How long have you been out there? What's been the highlight? What are the key themes? Yeah. So we're out here today. Actually, the goings in the background just to give you guys a sneak peek in place. So we are actually at the Navy's War Hacker event. We recently announced our product launch, UDS Fleet. And so we happen to be here in San Diego, super excited about the Andrel 250 that's coming up here. But today, actually, and all the folks around me, there's 350 builders across the Department of War all working and hacking on cool problems.

1:35:46And so we're excited to work side by side with the military and government and building solutions here. Is this a new trend, just a new era for software defense technology? Because it feels like a lot of the defense tech energy was around new systems. You're building boats. You're building drones. You're building counter drones, counter boats or something. A lot of hard tech getting unlocked. A lot on the back of the Anduril story and a bunch of other successful companies. But this feels a little bit new to me. Are we in a software boom these days? Yeah, so a couple things. Nature of warfare is changing.

1:36:27And so I think people realize that a little bit. But to give you guys some perspective, when I was active duty Air Force, when I was deployed, there's 4 ,000 airmen managing 70 aircraft. You can imagine in the not so different distant future, there's going to be 70 airmen managing 4 ,000 or 40 ,000 autonomous systems. And so the sheer nature of warfare is changing just based on the sheer number of systems. Also, the demand to get updates out faster has never been more important because of a capabilities perspective. And so that's the advantage side. On the national security side, the scary side is you have new foundational models.

1:37:04I know Anthropic had their model pool due to national security concerns. I mean, those concerns are very real. We need to obviously secure our systems. The ability to patch and update your software has never been more important. And so, honestly, shout out to, you know, what's changed. The threat is real. Modern warfare is here. You know, shout out to the Trump administration and honestly, the entire Department of War to just take new approaches to doing business. And so, you know, this hackathon that we're at today, you know, which is, you know, Department of War, you know, effort, you know, it's one of many things that the Department of War is doing to just take kind of new approaches.

1:37:46And really just like the big idea here and what we're trying to get after is like, you know, you have a team full of industry people. It's hard in industry to actually sit side by side a warfighter. You might develop a product and be guessing at to what their issues are. You can actually sit side by side with them. You can get real feedback and vice versa. As a former military member, you really have no idea what industry is capable of. And something that you might think is a hard challenge, somebody can actually solve overnight. And so, you know, I think this is one of many things that the administration has been doing.

1:38:18You know, I can't, you know, as a citizen and somebody who spent the last two decades in the Department of War, I really love to see the bureaucracy just like totally get out of the way. I think this is a new vibe. I know you've got a lot of tech companies like ourselves really entering the ecosystem. And I think the reason why it continues to grow is because companies are finding success. And why are they finding success? It's because the military members on the other side are open to new approaches. They see the demand. They know that they need to be operating a different way. And I think there's a whole industry of startups that are eager to work with those customers.

1:38:53Do you think there's more pre-seed stage companies that re-industrialized this year than two years ago or less?

1:39:04Well, I would say that it's, you know, for me, this is my first one. So I don't know between this year and last year. But I'll tell you what, we got a startup over here. It's like four people. It was three people a week ago. And I can't go on exactly what they're doing. But I've been blown away. You know, like I said, being a former Air Force member, they're working on some awesome things. There are small companies here. Right actually behind me, we got a small group of, you know, small company, about 10 people, building a drone live, integrating with some new software capabilities. And so I think the appetite for smaller and smaller teams, because as you guys know very well, AI has lowered the barrier to entry.

1:39:47And so as AI lowers the barrier to entry, there's an appetite for the Department of War and the government to work with these smaller and smaller teams. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to hop on the show. Yeah, thanks for calling in from the hackathon. We'll talk to you soon. I'm sure the energy is awesome. Have a good rest of your day. Great to see you. Awesome. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Mr. Slaughter. Let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents, whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish.

1:40:21Our next guest is almost here. I'm not sure. I guess not yet. Fully in the waiting room, we have Rob Reed, the author of After On and Year. VC Braggs hit the timeline and said, I want to sincerely apologize for poking fun at the most marginalized and victimized group in our society, venture capitalists. Yes, the Streisand effect was fully out on the timeline over the past few days, going back and forth with venture capitalists over something that wasn't quite a brag, but it was more just a reflection on the time in San Francisco, how much money is flowing around, how many people are raising different funds.

1:41:03But VC Braggs, of course, takes a screenshot, posts it, and that was not well received. But if you're getting dunked on, you've got to lean in. I think Jason Calacanis learned this and has done a fantastic job negotiating with VC Braggs to the point where the whole first investor in Uber, third investor in Uber thing, has become part of a sticky brand. If VC Braggs takes a shot at you and you're an investor, you've got to lean in. Yeah. You can't. You've made it. You're worth taking a shot at. Yeah. People are talking about you. You're not a nobody anymore. Anyway, we have Rob Reid in the waiting room.

1:41:44Let's bring him in to the TVP and I'll call him. Rob, how are you doing? Good now. Hello, gentlemen. Thank you so much for taking the time. It's great to have you. We wanted to talk about all the advancements in bio, biosecurity, what's happening there. But since it's the first time on the show, I would love to know a little bit about your background and sort of introduce you to the audience. Could you take us through some of your earlier journeys, some of the companies that you've worked with and what you're doing now. And then we can go into the hot topics of today.

1:42:12Rob Reid:Absolutely. So I came to the Valley right out of school and I'm chronologically advanced enough that it was during the first wave of the internet boom. So I was at a big company that got very aware of the internet sort of oncoming tide early, I'd say, got into the internet group there, became an internet person in 1994, which is very, very early. And as a result of that, I saw a lot of things coming. I ended up writing a book about the rise of the internet as a commercial medium, kind of as it was happening. And that got me widely known, and I became sort of a junior VC at a junior firm. And then I took off and started.

1:42:52What year did you publish the book? Sorry to interrupt.

1:42:54Rob Reid:The book came out in 1997. It's called Architects of the Web. And I profiled eight entrepreneurs. I think this could be a good business opportunity. There might be some commerce that happens on the World Wide Web. That's amazing. Yeah. That was one of my theories. There might be commerce. People might create stocks. Yeah. Video. Crazy stuff. How much pushback did you get at the time? Because we've covered it before on the show, but there was this almost, if you look at the doom and fear that people had around the internet, It almost aligns one-to-one with AI. There was the Y2K moment. Yeah, Y2K, cyber.

1:43:35Putting all bookstores, all retail, the mall apocalypse, retail apocalypse. Yeah, the SaaSpocalypse was the retail apocalypse. Almost there's basically a one-to-one example for each.

1:43:46Rob Reid:Yeah. This was in the honeymoon period before the panicking started. So 97, it's still primarily a tech-forward thing. and there was wild optimism about what was going to happen. Although we didn't have the vocabulary yet, I think if you ask people what the internet would do for information and informedness, people would describe a combination of Wikipedia and Snopes, if you remember Snopes. Oh, yeah. Nobody ever imagined that disinformation would spread rapidly, that it would be divisive. It was a real kumbaya vibe early on. and people were obviously a little bit over optimistic on that front but boy were they right about the economic opportunity and the degree to which it would change our lives and and the way we do business and so at that time with that book you know it was it was celebrating that moment and really taking a deep deep look at what was happening right then at the outset and it was a small enough industry and i had been a part of it just a few months before i started writing it that I had access to everybody and I got to know everybody of any consequence.

1:44:53Rob Reid:I mean, this is when, you know, you could go over to Netscape and get a meeting with Marc Andreessen if you had a good reason to with relatively little difficulty. And through all the relationships that I made through that, I ended up getting this sort of field promotion to be a VC far sooner than I thought I would. Did that for a couple of years, learned a ton, started this music. I started a I was the solo founder of a company that created a music service called Rhapsody. But tell us the domain name of that company. Oh, listen.com. Fantastic domain name. We love these amazing domains. They're so rare these days.

1:45:28But back then, everyone had a great domain. What was the entrepreneurial journey like? Was it a tough transition? What was the whole journey? How do you reflect on it today?

1:45:38Rob Reid:The toughest thing was that I'd never really managed prior to that. I'd been a mid-level marketing ground at a big computer company and then a VC. You learned a lot of lessons as a VC, but had to be a self-taught manager. That's hard enough when you're doing it for the first time. But when you have people who work for people who work for people who work for you, that's a lot to rocket through. We got up to about 200 employees before we sold. That was the trickiest thing. And it is lonely being a solo founder because there's no one person. You may have great investor relationships, great board relationships, even great relationships, obviously, with your team.

1:46:19Rob Reid:There's nobody that looks at things through precisely the same lens as you. That said, every co-founder that's added to an equation or every co-founder relationship, which scales quadratically if you go to three, four, et cetera, is an axis upon which a startup can break. And so that's sort of the trade-off that you face. And, you know, I'm glad I did it as a solo founder for a whole bunch of reasons, but that's tough. Yeah. Interesting. When did you start thinking about bio-risk? Generally, that seems like a second-order effect of technology at this point. But what piqued your interest? What was your process to get up to speed and start actually thinking through tactical implications and forecasting risk?

1:47:06Rob Reid:In a way, it connects to that startup Rhapsody. So most of your listeners may not remember Rhapsody. For all intents and purposes, we were the first Spotify. We created the unlimited on-demand streaming model that everybody else later adopted. We were the first company to sign full catalog licenses with all the major labels, even before Apple did for their MP3 start. and when I came out of that I wanted to take a little bit of time off and I wrote, I'd been a writer, I'd written a couple of books but non-fiction and so I wrote a book about a crazy alien civilization that was so into American pop music they accidentally committed the biggest copyright infringement in the history of the universe and bankrupt the entire universe, yeah, based on a true story I like to say.

1:47:52Rob Reid:And so that I thought I was doing for myself, bizarrely enough, it briefly and barely, I want to put those words out there, became a New York Times bestseller. And I was living in LA. But that's forever. I know. You said briefly, but it's forever. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I was like a little prairie dog coming up to the bottom of the list and looking around for a couple of weeks, but you do get to say that. Forever. And I was living in Los Angeles with, we were just nearly married. My wife was hosting a TV show that kind of had us marooned down there for a long period of time. So before starting another company, I leaned into more writing and doing a bunch of deep science podcasting.

1:48:31Rob Reid:And this is where it all sort of comes together. Often, I mean, generally interviewing world-class scientists all the way up to the Nobel level about, you know, very deeply about their work. And I would spend 30 or 40 hours of prep before each interview because I was mainly doing it for the fun of it. And that was a great way to learn about a bunch of different things. Through one of my novels and then through my podcasting, I got more and more concerned about synthetic biology risk. And, you know, this probably started about 10 years ago. And at the time, you could see that synthetic biology, like computing, was and is an exponential technology, which means that the things that are incredibly hard or indeed even impossible to do today, today, unless you're one of two or three people, are the types of things that freshmen in college will be able to do with the passage of time.

1:49:21Rob Reid:And when you think about the bad things that can happen on the edges of synthetic biology, and this is before we got to the AI intersection, you could really imagine catastrophic acts of bioterror or bioerror, you know, seven, eight years in the future. And, you know, I started diving deeper into this, speaking about it, writing about it. And then right before COVID, I gave a TED talk about the dangers of an unnatural pandemic. And of course, a few months later, we had COVID. And so I've gotten deeper and deeper into this. It's my public service side. I have made one investment that is connected to this as a VC, which is what I do now.

1:50:01Rob Reid:But it's my public service side. And I've at this point, probably put, you know, at least a couple thousand hours into it over the years. There's been some movement, at least like open letters signed by AI lab leaders. The most recent was around basically record keeping and sort of KYC rules at companies that manufacture DNA, RNA sequences, if I understand that correctly. Is that the right hinge point to focus on? Are you a fan of an ensemble approach where the models have guardrails baked in? And then also, if you're using the model through a SaaS product, then the software also is tracking things.

1:50:44Then the company that makes the actual sequence might have guardrails. And then maybe the equipment is regulated with licenses. Do you have a prescriptive approach that you're advocating for at this point? Is it evolving? How are you thinking about that?

1:51:01Rob Reid:It's always evolving, but there are a few very, very simple and incredibly inexpensive things that we can do as first steps that would significantly improve the situation. So, first of all, all of the foundation model companies are very, very aware of this risk. They all have what's called classifier models that are there. We've all probably experienced versions of them that are there to prevent people from doing dangerous biological research or try to create dangerous bugs. Every frontier model, every model has what's called a system card, which they describe the model and its capabilities. And every system card I've ever seen has acknowledged that classifiers, classifier models, which are like smaller models, almost like bouncers that sit in front of the big model.

1:51:45Rob Reid:Classifiers can and are always fooled. So they are doing everything they can. They will continue to. We should be grateful for that. But we know that that's only the beginning of it. The next issue is securing our DNA supply. So at this point, practically anybody who wants to make a long strand of DNA goes to a service bureau to have that done because the experts are better at it and researchers would rather do research. There is a consortium called the International Genome Synthesis Sequencing Consortium or something like that. It's called the IGSC. It's a voluntary consortium that does very good work.

1:52:22Rob Reid:They put together what they call sequences of concern. And if somebody tries to order one of those things, you know, traffic light, red, yellow will go off and they'll dive into the order. This is expensive for companies to comply with. And it's also voluntary. The IGSC claims that they speak for 80 percent of the synthesized DNA in the world. But that was kind of a out of the, you know, you know, kind of blue sky guess that they made over 10 years ago. And they don't have very many Chinese members, so that's no longer true. But even if it was 80%, I can confidently say that if there were a town in which 80 % of the bars enforced the drinking age, that would be a town without a drinking age, right?

1:53:06Rob Reid:So it does nothing. A bad actor is going to go to a non-IGSC shop, obviously. And it's even worse than that. It'd be almost like you had security lines at the airport that were voluntary, and it was actually cheaper to fly if you didn't go through the security line because you save money by not, you know, this adds to the cost basis. We need to take that mandatory. And there was actually an open letter signed by a lot of folks, including from AI Labs, just a few days ago pushing for that. This is a dead simple thing. And by the way, it's as much in China's interests as it is in our own. because if anybody can order any strand of DNA that they want, and we'll get into what they can do with that DNA once they have it, if you'd like, the two entities that have the most to lose are the United States and China.

1:53:57Rob Reid:And this is something that we can team up on with them and say, yeah, there needs to be an international regime. It has to be mandatory, and it also has to apply to benchtop synthesizers where people can make much shorter strands without having to go to a service bureau. If a bad actor gets a hold of or is working with somebody that's not voluntarily being, I guess, regulated, what can they do with it? Well, in a worst case scenario, let's think about something that's not just hypothetical. Let's say that there is a really deadly genome that's in wide circulation online. Everybody knows what it is.

1:54:40Rob Reid:1918 flu happens to be just such a genome because our government put it there. They put it there a long time ago when very few people could do anything with it. But the passage of time always happens. And it was a very foolish thing to do because we now live in a world in which 30 ,000 people, roughly, perhaps a little more, have the tools and the know-how which would allow them to basically animate that virus just from the DNA if they felt like doing it. And the last time that thing came around, it killed a staggeringly high percentage of the people in the world. And we don't want that to happen again.

1:55:14Rob Reid:There's reasons to think it might not turn into a pandemic this time, but let's skip the rabbit hole. This is just a hypothetical. There is a brilliant professor at MIT named Kevin Esvelt, who stress tested the system with this in mind. And he basically cut up a whole bunch of orders, which collectively added up to Spanish flu and sent it to a whole bunch of different labs. Most of those labs actually knew that this was a sequence that was part of the Spanish flu. But although the Spanish flu virus is very, very tightly regulated by our government, it's one of the very most regulated biological, you know, critters or sequences or whatever you want to say in the world, because it's called a select agent.

1:55:56Rob Reid:There's fewer than 100 of those. They didn't stop themselves from sending the DNA because it's only the entire genome that's regulated. And so this was a scientific paper he did. He did it with the knowledge and cooperation of the FBI. It was a red teaming exercise. And even going to IGSC compliant labs, he could pull this all together and somebody like Kevin and about 30 ,000 other people could then animate the virus. And the number of people who can do that is only going to go up. It was probably fewer than 30 when that genome was first posted to the internet. At some point, it will be anybody in freshman biology.

1:56:33What do you, I feel like every six months, there's a very concerning headline where like some illegal biolab is like raided by law enforcement. And then it just sort of like goes away. What do you make of that? I'm sure you've kind of tracked a lot of these stories. how I'm assuming if law enforcement is consistently finding them that there's a lot more out there that aren't found why do people why are they created in the first place what is the United States doing to crack down further all that stuff yeah I mean we can rely on the fact that we have

1:57:16Rob Reid:not found each and every one of these things and this all keys off of proliferation so again I'll go back to the notion that synthetic biology is an exponential technology like computing. With something like that, you have very, very, very rapid proliferation and very, very, very rapid drops in cost. So just think about transistors. I forget the statistic, but it was in the late 50s that one very brilliant person in the entire world developed the ability to play checkers with a computer. He had one of five machines that could do it. He was one of two people who were smart enough to program or whatever.

1:57:52Rob Reid:And with the passage of a couple decades, you know, anybody can play chess. And then it gets to the point that any, you know, street kid with a tiny budget can do that. We'll go through the same thing with SynBio. Now, these labs that we're discovering have not been terribly capable yet. But because, particularly when SynBio meets AI, the level of expertise that you need in order to achieve really powerful things that perhaps nobody even could achieve right now will become increasingly achievable in a very, very low budget with the passage of like a single digit number of years. And so these labs are, we're hearing more and more about them because it's becoming cheaper and easier to create them.

1:58:34Rob Reid:And, you know, this needs to be something that we as a society think about and invest in as much as cybersecurity. We spend tens of billions of dollars a year on that, as we should. But the consequences of the human genome and therefore the human species being taken down by a cunningly engineered virus are so much higher than that in cyber that we should be rationally making at least as much of an investment. And at this point, we're making a vanishingly small amount of investment. And I should point out, part of this investment needs to be about preventing bad actors without hobbling our ability to get incredible gains from Symbio and from AI models.

1:59:16Rob Reid:And so that has to be done very deftly and very intelligently. And so simply passing a law and saying we've passed the law ain't enough. Not that we're in any danger of passing a law that makes us more secure on a bio level. But the objective, the urgent objective needs to be to allow creativity and technological and scientific advance to run rapid and bring incredible benefits to us, but not allowing ourselves to get taken down. And this thing that I mentioned with secure DNA, that would cost, you know, virtually nothing because there are tools that do this that are actually open source. It's just not required to anybody.

1:59:53Rob Reid:There just needs to be a requirement in that case and some enforcement. and we haven't yet had the social willpower to even do that. Hopefully that's going to change with all these powerful signatures that are starting to accrue on these open letters.

2:00:09It seems pretty straightforward that AI's ability to find software vulnerabilities, basically sending a model and saying, hey, just figure out vulnerabilities in this infrastructure or this piece of software. Do you believe already the models have that same ability to effectively find vulnerabilities in the human species?

2:00:37Rob Reid:Yeah, there's no question because we are not as robust as the Mac OS, for instance. There are lots and lots of known vulnerabilities that we have already that have not been patched, will never be patched, cannot be patched. And so, yeah, we're a much softer target than Linux or Mac OS. And so how does, it seems like the solution needs to be, like you've been talking about, focused on actually making it more difficult to procure DNA. Yes. If you assume that open models, you know, a bad actor is going to be able to have an open model with no guardrails, with access to enough compute that they can send the model on, you know, basically a goal, which is like find as many possible, you know, known vulnerabilities as well as potentially net new vulnerabilities in, you know, the human species.

2:01:37And so that it feels like cats out of the bag there maybe already or will be within the next 12 months.

2:01:46Rob Reid:But do you think hopefully 24, 36, but perhaps already? Sure. Yeah. Last question for me, you know, as as as guns proliferated society, so did metal detectors. is there an opportunity for more diffuse early warning detection around sickness? I'm just thinking if a whoop or an aura ring or some other connected device can tell every individual, you're getting sick, you should get checked out, you shouldn't go to work, you shouldn't go to that population, you shouldn't spread anything, it feels like that could make quarantining more targeted and potentially more of an early warning detection system.

2:02:29Are you optimistic about that?

2:02:31Rob Reid:You've actually hit on a couple of really interesting things for that question. Let's go to metal detectors and guns first. In 1972, astounding fact, there were over 50 hijackings of large commercial airliners in the United States. That started being true in the late 60s. Why? There was literally no airport security at all in the United States. And who was lobbying against it? The airlines. because they thought it would be expensive and it would make people think seeing those security gates would make people think that airline uh travel was dangerous i'll tell you what would make me think it's dangerous 50 hijackings a year um wait and i'm sorry go ahead that people would hijack a plane and enjoy hostages so there was there a lot of like ransom payments being made was that like the primary we got to do a whole deep dive yeah i guess we're going to do three hours tomorrow on hijack.

2:03:28Rob Reid:There was everything. There was everything. So there's a great book called The Skies Belong to Us to tell the story. But this was kind of the late 60s. And there were a lot of radicals. And the most popular destination was Cuba. Somebody would have it in their heads that they're going to fly down to Cuba with a hijacked plane. Fidel's going to become their best friend. And it's just going to be, you know, rum coladas and beaches for the rest of their life. It literally got so bad that they started a dormitory for wayward American hostages, and I'm not exaggerating, in Havana. And they would send the plane back and just have to deal with these entitled college or post-college kids.

2:04:04Rob Reid:Anyway, the security guards' gates go in, and we go from 50 hijackings in 72 to zero in 73. And then there's kind of a very occasional thing in the 9-11 hits. And after 9-11 hits, we take security much more seriously than ever. And there has not been a single one in the United States in 25 years. What does this tell us? It means that you don't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. A lot of people say, well, gee, securing the DNA is only part of the solution. It is. But you make a major speed bump in front of people. It becomes a much higher bar, much higher intent. something you don't do on a whim because you're pissed off that your girlfriend or boyfriend broke up with you.

2:04:48Rob Reid:And then it becomes much more difficult to get over that bar. And you can really, really plummet the level of ambient risk down to the point that it's really only determined actors who are out there who become much easier to detect using intelligence and law enforcement, all the things that we want to use. And then in terms of your question of surveillance, yeah, we're pretty far off from when Oura Rings could necessarily do that. But we should be thinking about improving them and tying them into the primary care system in the U.S., if only because we're worried about sick days at work. Like there's lots of benefits to that.

2:05:23Rob Reid:But the other thing we can be doing is what's called biosurveillance, which is getting a global detection system out there. The best place, believe it or not, is airports where everybody comes in and all the waste products from all of those planes goes into a single place where you can sequence parts of that wastewater and see if there is a genetic sequence that's never been seen before that is suddenly starting to grow exponentially in various points of the world. because that would mean it's either something with a long incubation cycle or it's what some people call a stealth pandemic, which is something that is engineered to have an extravagantly long incubation cycle.

2:06:01Rob Reid:So everybody's asymptomatic, but it's spreading and spreading. If that ever happens, we want to know pronto. And the budget for some very, very powerful plans for biosurveillance has been as low as$50 million set up and$10 million a year thereafter. These are not expensive things. Yeah, we got to do it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. Let's do this again soon. We got to do this again soon. This is fantastic. Also, there's a bunch of your fans in the chat hoping for more podcasts from you because they love it. Your podcast. Yes, from your show. I'll talk to them. Well, thank you so much, Rob.

2:06:39Great to hang out. Have a great rest of your day. We'll talk to you soon. Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in-store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces. now with AI agents. And without further ado, we have the founder and CEO of Taste Labs. We talked about it yesterday on the show. Sorry for keeping you waiting. Thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us. How are you doing? What's happening? I'm doing great. How are you guys? Thanks for having me. Thanks for hopping on. We talked about Taste Labs, the launch, the back and forth a little bit yesterday.

2:07:11I would put... Did you mean to rage bait everyone with the name i i knew there was going to be some debate about the name but it's actually it's actually funny you know i just heard the company like a year ago with that name okay okay yeah well you get a ton of points for that for sure um what about this uh what about if i boil down the core debate it feels like a lot of people are very optimistic about your business like there are just a lot of models that where the outputs even if you just put aside taste like they're just not satisfactory to the user and providing more data, more signal there.

2:07:48That's valuable. Great, good business. But then there's this other discussion over like, can taste ever be something handled by a machine? Is it so human? We'll never touch it with the most magical godlike super intelligence. Those are the two angles. How reasonable is that as a framing as is that of a framing for this discussion? I think that's very reasonable. But by the way, I almost went to even do the exercise of not even using the word taste to describe what we're doing, because I think people got very caught up in the terminology. But ultimately, I think one thing that everyone can agree on is sloth is a problem.

2:08:23Sloth is everywhere. It's not going anywhere. It's just getting worse. And so that's really what we're ultimately trying to solve is how do we raise this bar of quality first? And how do we just allow us to even be able to create better things with AI? But it's not a substitute for human taste. And it's not trying to determine like one taste, if that makes sense. Yes, yes, yes. I think another thing people are worried about is like the idea of monoculture, which happens in Silicon Valley every once in a while where someone says like, serif fonts are tasteful, sans serif is no longer tasteful. Therefore, everyone must use sans serif or vice versa.

2:08:57And we're all like, wait, everything looks the same. This is actually bland. This doesn't feel as rich or tasteful as what you'd see in a thriving community that actually has a ton of culture to it. I'm interested to know, though, about the actual process. Congratulations on the finding round. But how are you thinking about actually imbuing models with taste? How much of this is about data labeling? How much of this is bringing on experts with particular backgrounds? Is this a very high skill ceiling effort where you're finding artists and people with art history backgrounds? Who is the ground truth?

2:09:35Where is the ground truth coming from? Very good question. So I think first on the monoculture piece, I think that's exactly what we're trying to solve. Like the whole problem with SOF is this repetition that you see, right? Every site now looks the same. Every site looks the same. No one wants that. And so part of what we're doing is building this community of experts that is at the heart of everything that we do, that are a lot of designers, front-end engineers, art people that can exactly bring this whole range. I think we don't even as a team want the company to be a reflection of our own personal preference.

2:10:06I think it's much more how do we map this whole range of preferences that exist and select the best people in the world at this so that they can bring to the table all their opinions and discussions of when is something good, when is something bad. Because also none of this can really happen in isolation. I think, yes, first we have to really raise this floor and figure out what's the minimum bar of quality. But then I think there is this multitude of preferences and that's always going to be the case. So I always think of like, I always think of in text, it's not this, it's that it's the parallelism.

2:10:37Antithetical parallelism is the name of that term. And by itself, I probably read that exact phrase in actually somebody pulled up an old Paul Graham essay that had that exact phrase, the forbidden AI slop phrase from a decade ago. And it's probably been in New Yorker articles and famous books, but it was only when it became so repeated that it was in every paragraph of everything that was ever generated that it became a tell and it became somewhat, I don't even know if it's less tasteful, but just annoying. And I think that I'm interested to know how much of taste in your mind or just the quality output is driven just by variation.

2:11:19I think that's a very good point. Like the feeling of repetition, it will lead something to be less tasteful over time. Right. That's why you have these cycles of trends, because you have kind of the people that are early. But then the soon that it becomes too ubiquitous, it kind of loses its power. And so it's this moving target. And I think that understanding how do you force diversity in an intentional way? Right. It's not just, for example, turning up the temperature of a bottle and having it produce more randomness, because that wouldn't be like intentional. And so it's like, how do you understand?

2:11:46Yes, how to force that diversity, but in a way that that's more intentional. off uh time what are your uh aesthetic super intelligence timelines do you think we can one day uh because it feels like it feels like we're we're i mean even just the latest revision of the models the like if you interact with the frontier the it's not this it's that like is actually gone i haven't seen it in a long time and a lot of these things like six fingers just went away and no one talked about it because it was only fun to talk about when it was sloppy and terrible And now people are like, wow, the victory lap was like two days in tech Twitter.

2:12:22And then everyone moved on. And they found some new bone to pick, which is maybe the human condition. We'll always find something to complain about. But yeah, do you have some end state or do you think this is a life's work? Is this something that we're going to be pursuing? I do think it's a bit of a life's work situation because I think you'll have this phase now. To your point, how do you fix the problem of six fingers? That's equivalent in design, right? That's equivalent in writing. But once you're over that, then I think it's like, how do you actually raise the ceiling of that too? And that's a moving target.

2:12:53So I think part of this that's very different than training a model to be amazing at something like coding or math is that it's not like you can train that capability once. It's something that you need to consistently retrain. I think a lot of the things the model right now is bad at is even these fundamentals, like things like vision, alignment, typography. But once that's solved, then I think it becomes much more of this problem of personalization, moving trends, localization too, right? So, yeah, honestly, I think within like a year, a lot of the capability problem will be solved in terms of what we can actually produce.

2:13:20But then the bar of ceiling, I think, is a much, much longer end hour. Talk about transfer learning in taste, where taste applies more broadly. We were just talking to the CEO of Arm Holdings, chip design firm. In labs, they talk about research taste. I imagine that there's a lot of chip design that can be done just with a deterministic like Verilog model, Verilog fine-tuned model. But I would imagine if I actually went and talked to the best you know designers at ARM they would say yeah there is a lot of taste in what we do and I'm interested to know if you think there will be knock-on effects because everyone probably goes to images, front-end design, you know the the visual taste of a visual designer.

2:14:05But I'm wondering if you see yourself as doing something that is in the path of solving challenges outside of visual taste. And maybe there will be implications in things that maybe people outside the industry can't see the taste that goes into the design of a CPU. But in fact, there is. Totally. So I think it's funny. It's funny you say this, because whenever I'm even explaining the company, a lot of people are like, there's a case in code, right? Like I am very opinionated about the way that I write code. So I think how can you develop really a framework and almost this like infrastructure to be able to print something that is so objective and something that's more objective that can be codified.

2:14:46And that logic, I think, will apply to many things way beyond just aesthetics. I think aesthetics is a super important one that we care deeply a lot about as a team, which is why we started there. But creative writing is another one to a point. Like anything really where there's multiple opinions applies the same logic. Yeah. What does demand look like just this week? Sounds like you started the company around a year ago or at least incorporated it. I imagine that the haters would be in shambles if they got a look at your pipeline, just given how much attention the launch got. But what's demand been like?

2:15:25the the inbound of the last 48 hours has been absolutely insane don't get me wrong it's actually the reason we took so long to launch um the reason we took so long to launch is actually because we already had more demand than honestly i think we could serve before even the launch and so it's been a very low sleep week for me uh trying to catch up with all the the demand but yeah i think both on the side of the labs and of the appler companies it's been kind of kind of bocker still trying to wrap my head around it and then and then meeting that demand uh creatives uh creatives i i've i've had the pleasure of working with so many amazing designers photographers creative directors over the years and uh oftentimes i've found that many of them are not, their life is not guided as commercially as many other kind of domains, right?

2:16:21Like software engineers, lawyers, accountants, et cetera, where, you know, if an accountant has an opportunity to work with a company for a great salary and the company is doing something, you know ethical or or not even just not illegal they're like cool sign me up uh whereas like create create creatives that i've worked with i've i've at some points just offered to make an intro hey there's this company and they'll just be like no i don't vibes yeah yeah there's no price to work with that how uh how has it been talking with uh creatives who many of them are are already like i've met plenty of creatives that love ai that are like this is amazing this is like a new tool but certainly many of them are also maybe they wouldn't even admit that they enjoy it as a tool so how's it been building out the network so i think there's still definitely a lot of division maybe within the creative community like people that are really leaning into it and others that are very like anti uh i think what's been really cool is actually finding these creatives that want to be that bridge they're like hey like i i do agree that ai is inevitable and And why not make it better, right?

2:17:33Like, why not be part of the solution to make this actually something good and that we can also use? And so that I think has been really cool. But you're right that they're way more picky, which they should be. Our founding designer actually had, we made her a hat that says picky because I totally agree with this. It's like, we have to create a community that actually people want to be a part of and are excited about. But of course, I think you're always going to have people that are anti-AI especially, and that will be against it. And I think we have to find the ones that are pro. how uh predictions how many years until we see someone affectionately and nostalgically embrace ai slop like the slop core aesthetic they're bringing six fingers and they're prompting the latest and greatest models the nano banana seven and they're like i want you to add six fingers because that has a retro feel that takes me back to dolly two and i want that 25 i want Yeah, maybe they just go back to the model if they're really authentic.

2:18:31It's like running the iPhone photo through the VHS recorder so you get the film grain in there. Something like that. How long until Slop becomes affectionately loved and reminisced about? I think it's going to be kind of like the taking photos on a film camera because it has a specific vibe. I do think that people do gravitate to these specific aesthetics and vibes. And maybe I need a little bit of distance so that you're not traumatized by the Slop. more so maybe like five years yeah we'll be like oh i really miss those like fonts and purple gradients all over my my page yeah i'm looking forward to time we had so good in 2026 i just want to go back to that era well do you think uh last question uh anyone that is uh you know worked on building a brand or a product i think early on in their career they can have this like frustration around the gap between their ability and their taste level do you think that's going away already because I even noticed like historically if I wanted to try to create like let's say 10 years ago I wanted to create like some type of render for for a product or design for a product I could go into Figma and like make a version of it very very quickly and now like with a let's say I have an idea for a joke consumer product I want to send to to john now i can basically one shot a version of it that's like pretty easy and it feels like that gap at least initially has closed um do you think that's do you think that's the case or are people's expectations just like already much higher yeah i think so i think people that love this mastery of the craft of design and that are like the peak of tastemakers i think will always want to keep improving even their ability to create to like keep up with their taste but i think what we really don't realize is, especially not with AI, any person on earth can suddenly create, right?

2:20:23Like you, anyone can prompt anyone and build something. And I think that group is a very large group that is producing a lot of volume. Um, and if we can, again, both actually raise the skill to match people's tastes, but actually even help to maybe improve people's tastes and like show them, understand their tastes better or improve the things that they can create. And so their bar will get higher. I think that would be awesome. Uh, I think the craftsmanship will never go away of the people that are like at the peak of that field. But I do agree with you that I think you're going to see this ability for you to suddenly match the level of taste that you maybe had as a consumer, even though you weren't like an expert or professional like before.

2:21:01Yeah. Last question, are you having to hire, are you having to convince people with taste to move to San Francisco or are you setting up satellite offices in New York and LA. Korshwick and Austin. I'm trying to convince a few to move. There is an amazing concentration of creatives in New York. And I'm actually from Brazil originally. Brazil is also amazing, like aesthetic city. So, yeah, we have a couple of people that are spread out, but convincing a few to move. That's great. Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, congrats on the launch. Congrats on the round. How much was it? How much did you raise?

2:21:3518 and a half million. There we go. Congratulations, and thank you so much for taking the time. Sorry we couldn't do this yesterday, but I'm really glad we got to digest the story in the chat. I'm going to have to convince Jordan out to like the name eventually. That is my one mission. No, no, I think you won him over just with the fact that you trademarked it a year ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was entirely memetic to the discourse. If it was a week ago, it's a discussion, but a year ago, you created a taste. And I also like that I don't hate tasteful rage bait, you know? You just have to deliver an actual product.

2:22:07But you have to deliver on what you're selling. And it has to be aligned. And I think that every lab, every AI company, they want tasteful outputs. And I think you're going to do quite well. So great to meet you. Hi, Alex Smith. Raise the bar. Thank you for having me. This was great. Have a great one. We'll talk to you soon. Let me tell you about Figma. Jordy mentioned it. Agents, meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. And let me also tell you about Railway. While our guest sits down, Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider.

2:22:44Use your favorite agent to deploy web apps, servers, databases, and more. Gal Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security. Our special guest today, we have David Senra here with us. How are you doing, David? Good to see you. Good to see you. You need to totally adjust this. What am I doing here? I think this is fine. We're doing them low because of the camera. We'll move this over here. yeah first podcast what was your most recent episode you did i catmull oh yeah oh one of the best yeah uh break it down what was the biggest lesson ed catmull the founder of pixar yeah founder pixar i mean he's also like a graphics legend catmull clark algorithm for subdividing meshes i'm familiar damn i love it i didn't even know that yeah catmull clark yeah yeah it's an algorithm if you have a box and you need to create more dimensions more fidelity you can use the Catmull-Clark algorithm.

2:23:35He was cool enough to invite me to his house, which was really cool. And so that's what we recorded. What I would say is the weird thing that I shouldn't have been surprised at is you ask me a question and every answer is in this beautiful, full story. Oh, yeah. And so after, I was like, oh, of course. He's one of the greatest storytellers of all time. Why wouldn't he speak that way? That's great. What do you learn about founders from being in their homes? That's a good question.

2:24:02do you go straight for the bookshelf yeah that that i do automatically i don't know that's a good question i don't know you gotta learn about architecture do you like the straussian reading of you you walk into someone and it looks like a you know castle and it looks like vlad the impaler lives there that's going to tell a different story than somebody who lives in a little farmhouse his house was a lot more normal than than i would expect okay i thought it was going to have like weird shit everywhere and like little cartoons and stuff but no yeah yeah yeah you got to think about like what what's on the walls what do they choose to to put on their on their walls the type of art and how self-clin and how uh how like reflective they are in their careers there's some people that put up like their movie star they put up their own movie posters other people even though they rise to the highest heights they might still be fans of other creators or other people or their contemporaries or uh they might have you know roman statues because i'm obsessed with the so that's a good i've hung out at jimmy ivine's house a bunch of times and he famously says like he's like he doesn't have a trophy room he doesn't have a rearview mirror he doesn't even like talking about his past yeah there's nothing in his house you wouldn't even know what he does other than he's very fucking rich

2:25:16what's the latest on the podcast industry podcast growth are you seeing any uh do you think there'll be any knockout effects from like have you been tracking what's going on in hollywood where they're digging through reddit to adapt stories from youtubers have you said have you been trying so there's three breakout movies this summer uh obsession backrooms and iron lung all three created by YouTubers, independent creators, sort of like, you know, Hollywood sort of turned their back on these folks. Like they didn't have direct pipelines into the traditional media world. And yet they all had blockbuster films in the span of a few months.

2:25:56And I'm just wondering if you're seeing any hints from like the Spotify's of the world, the Netflix's of the world, where there might be more appetite to take what we started here, independent creators, and start funneling them into the traditional workflows. God, I hope not. You hope not? Yeah, right. Why? I think one of the cool things about podcasting is just how independent and almost like punk rock it is. I've spent, obviously, a bunch of time with the Spotify guys. I was just with them in New York because I just recorded one with Gustav. And then a few days later, I had breakfast with the co-CEO and the head of podcast, Roman.

2:26:34and you know they've told me multiple times when their initial podcast strategy i think they wound up firing the lady that was running it her idea was like let's take this thing that is you know uh doesn't cost any money and the people who started it would do it for free and they did it when no one was listening and let's like get michelle obama or fucking prince harry to do this and it's like turns out one it was super expensive two no one listened because they didn't even care yeah so yeah um actually a couple days ago i was in new york and no disrespect to this guy but There was like this investment banker, I guess, who's like trying to like, I guess he sold a few podcasts and he's done a bunch of media.

2:27:05And I was just like, I left the, we didn't even eat, kind of like disgusted with, he took, he was talking about something that I love that I care deeply about. Something I think is genuinely a miracle. And it's just like, well, how do we like package it together and like sell it to PE? And I wanted to vomit. Extremely bearish for the slat wall. Oh, and they brought you up too. And like, I was like, you don't have to tell me about them, those guys. I happen to know them. Extremely bearish for the slat wall industry. What do you think about podcast aesthetics, designs? If I'm starting a solo show, should I put a bookcase behind me?

2:27:37No, you know what we might do? What? You know the guy that does my clips, Maxim, right? Yeah. He wants to start doing like a brand identity and video episodes for founders. Sure. And I think we're going to do a pixel-by-pixel recreation of Steve Jobs' home office. Oh, that's fun. I've seen that image. Yeah, exactly. It's like kind of messy, and he's standing up. He's got a big computer there, but he's got shit on the floor. It's like something you actually use. Yeah, that story is sort of apocryphal, right? Because it's a picture of Steve Jobs' home office. And people compare it to a picture of Tim Cook in the Apple office.

2:28:11And they're like, this tells you everything about how different they are. But the nuance there is that you haven't seen Tim Cook's home office. You don't know what it's like. And of course, if like Vanity Fair is coming in with a team of photographers, the Apple PR department's probably gonna tidy up Tim's office. But also doing a pixel by pixel recreation, and it's like if you know, you know. You have to be deep into the lore of business history. I feel like the Acquired guys are doing well on that path. The In the Garage episode, I don't know if you saw that. With Michael Lewis? Yeah, exactly.

2:28:40And so that idea, I think that they have a huge amount of untapped upside in the set design of those worlds. If they actually build a world around Nike when they're doing the Nike episode. So I think they're going to have a huge video opportunity. I have a little different perspective on some of this. For, I think, normal people podcasts, this heavy investment into sets could make a lot of sense. Because normal people are sitting around watching. What I would say is for people building business podcasts, if you have an audience of entrepreneurs and investors, what do they actually want? Do they want useful information that they can then apply to their business or some kind of inspiration?

2:29:20like so get that part down first for the first nine years of founders there was there wasn't any there wasn't video at all and it like thrived uh obviously on my new show like we you actually played a huge role for this we started shooting at three cameras and john's like what is this bullshit you should do five and we just recorded one with mr beast that won't be out for a few months but we did six cameras and a drone why not 11 no i mean yeah i guess you could but i think five i think five seems to be like a thing turn it up so like you can make them beautiful but i'm saying like you have to nail we have 11 cameras here we have gone cam you have i was like in the production you have eight nine back there i noticed i was we have 10 or 11 cameras when i'm sitting behind your production crew there's three different cameras on me yeah standing back there yeah so yeah this i was saying have you guys ever seen the um the the picture of when steve jobs convinces bill gates to give apple 150 million yes yes we're gonna put and i was like i was like hey this is This is the first time I've been here since the big screen.

2:30:20I'm like, what do you think? I go, I love it. I go, but you know you can go bigger. I just showed them a picture. This is modular. You can add panels to this without actually needing to buy a whole new system. You can keep doing it. History of talent wars. Is anything, you know, the iconic, it's the email exchange between Steve and the CEO of Adobe, right? saying like, you know, we have different policies on this, one of them needs to change. Is anything else come to mind? I can imagine a number of history's greatest entrepreneurs that were willing to just become enemies with another one of the greats purely because they realize that talent is everything.

2:31:08Yeah, I would say like if you're the kind of person that gets to the very top of your profession uh you're highly likely like have some degree of ruthlessness to ruthlessness to them uh joseph politzer is the basically the inventor of everything that we're kind of doing now um i'm actually just reread his biography it's like he he tried to merge his newspaper with his little brother's newspaper and his little brother's like no i don't need to do this and joseph's like well you have to understand you're not even making your own newspaper so you shouldn't be so cocksure is the word he used and he goes because what happens if to the people that are like actually making the newspaper?

2:31:41What if they go away? And his younger brother's name is Albury. He's like, they're not going to. That night, Pulitzer raided his little brother's entire staff and recruited them all. And do you remember what happened after that? Yeah, I think the larger, we can go into this one second. I think the larger point here is just like I'm not saying like you should, it's very clear like when I'm especially when we're making Founders Podcasts, like I'm not saying you should have these traits yourself. You should just know that these people do and you can choose to, if you want to work with them or compete with them or whatever the case is, you shouldn't be surprised at what they're doing.

2:32:15He would literally do anything to win. He would sacrifice relationships, ethics, morals, anything. He wants to win. The surprise about Pulitzer is most people learn about Pulitzer from the Pulitzer Prize, which is awarded to the best journalistic efforts, the most groundbreaking investigative of journalism, but that's not how Pulitzer made his money, right? He was a muckraking journalist, a tabloid newspaper guy, is that correct? Him and William Randolph Hearst get into this huge circulation war in New York. Same thing, William Randolph Hearst idolized him, he was like 15 years younger. He did the same thing that Pulitzer did to his little brother.

2:32:50He raided, Pulitzer went blind, and now you're competing with somebody that is blind. And so William Randolph Hearst is like, I'm taking all your shit, man. Steve still works for you. Would you just go to the office and just kind of sneak around and just whispered? No. I should not be laughing at this other than everybody knows I have a giant head. And so this part was hilarious to me where later in life, the last two decades of his life, he's blind. I never really noticed you had a giant head, but now that you say that, really up here, it's tremendous. Well, where do you think all this information is stored?

2:33:24So anyways, when he'd meet, when you're blind, he'd come over here. He would want to feel your face, right? And then eventually he goes up the cranium and then this one guy goes, my God, you have a giant head. sir. I left that part out of the podcast, but it was in the book. But the quality of his work, he was not. Yellow journalism. He's the inventor of your overly sensational. Yep. Clickbait. It's fucking social media. It's like sex, violence. You're worried about stuff that has no effect on your day to day life, but you know, it can spread everywhere. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. What entrepreneurs do you think could be defined as cult leaders?

2:34:06Are all of history's greatest entrepreneurs cult leaders? Or are there some that are just humble merchants that like making better products cheaper? I think that's funny. I actually just, when I was with the Spotify guys, they said they pull all my data. and I never, you guys know, I don't look at data. I don't care how many people listen. I just want to make. I like what you said about taste. Let's go back to that next. I saw the clip yesterday. I thought that observation you made yesterday was very astute. And so they wound up pulling the data and they compared the two shows and then what happens when people listen to both shows.

2:34:43But basically they're like, you don't have a podcast, you have a cult. The retention is fucking crazy. I think anybody that gets really good at what they do and has a differentiated point of view, like James Dyson, I spent time with him, right? He's maybe my number one hero. Personality-wise, he doesn't come across like messianic in the way like a Steve Jobs would, but his products have a cult-like following. Sure, sure, sure. So there's that example. And then there's just people that have just unbelievably god levels of charisma, like Steve Jobs or Henry Kaiser or people like that. What about a family business?

2:35:15Is that less cult-like in the organizational design? No, it's probably more because I'm obsessed with these people that own 100 % of the business. you've never heard of them I've met a bunch of them in many cases they'll print hundreds of millions for themselves every year or like billions just cash it's like oh what was your paycheck this year? fucking three billion dollars and you've never heard of these people but they have entire worlds like a world within the world mid-journal yeah maybe birth of the next one maybe he's like oh oh oh it only made a couple hundred million no no that's not what I mean I'm reserving judgment that's not what I mean No, no, it's not a dynasty.

2:35:55It's not a dynasty. Yeah, these people have been running their business for multiple decades. Longer than most of the founders we know have been alive. It's just a different thing. It wasn't a derogatory thing at all. No, no, it's just funny because I know you have an extremely high bar for these things. Taste, good or bad? Do you like taste? No, I... Where do you stand on this? I think Jordi's observation about people misunderstanding what it is, It was something that was personal to you and differentiated to you. I think I went on somebody else's podcast recently. I went on Brian Halligan's podcast, and he was asking me about you guys.

2:36:28They came into this industry that I love, that I think I study more than anybody else in the world. It wasn't like they were 10x better marketers. They were like 100 or 1 ,000 better, the next best fucking marketer in podcasting. That came from your personal taste. And then what happens is like when people copy it, you see like poor imitations. They can copy what they see, but they don't actually understand it. Yeah, something's only tasteful once. Yeah, it's hard. And I think, again, it should be like tailored to this person. I think in like seven days, I wound up recording conversations with, I think it was seven or ten days, something like that, Dana White, Ed Catmull, and Rick Rubin.

2:37:09Rick Rubin. And think about it. It's like one built the largest combat organization in the world. one is the top of his profession essentially like the consigliere to musicians and all kinds of people essentially gets paid to be himself and then Ed Catmull is making movies and the theme through all of those when you talk to them and I didn't understand that going in even though I've studied all of them in many cases made multiple founders episodes on all of them too it's like oh they're just building the product they want to use that they want to see like Ed Catmull is making the movies he wants to watch Dana Wise wants to put on the fights that he wants to watch and Rick Rubin makes the music he wants to listen to Yeah.

2:37:43And I think that that is like a key to having taste. It can't just be like, oh, like I'm going to get taste to an API or something. It's just like, well, what, like, what is James Lyson has a great line about this? Like the root principle is to do things your way. This is what drives me fucking crazy about podcasts. When you, the question you said earlier, it's like, oh, I want to make podcasts because now you can get really, really rich making a podcast. So I'm going to go scour Reddit for an idea. It's like, you don't have an idea in your head. Like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I think it's very important to like ask people why they're doing what they're doing.

2:38:13It's another Steve Jobs quote He's just like the older I get the more I understand that motivations matter Have you read the latest Tim Ferriss blog post about His nonfiction sales declining. Have you tracked this at all? Do you think I did? It's interesting you know me really well. Do you think I even see all this? I know you I know you watch the the fight on Sunday. No, what? No, I was like on a I can't remember where it was Sunday No, no, I'm gonna watch them now. Yeah, I'll rewatch them. Yeah, you watch them at your house. We're live Yeah, you were there. I was locked. No, okay live with no no, I was like flying or traveling I don't remember where I was Sunday, but there's a reason I couldn't see it.

2:38:50It's very upsetting to me. Mm-hmm What we saying before that though before the fights Tim Ferriss just shared some data on his he has multiple New York Times bestsellers and he's been seeing a sales decline. And he sort of framed it as like some of the books that he's written, he describes as a lookup tables for information. Like one of them just has like a lot of recipes. And so recipes are obviously for our chef. That's right. Yeah. Tools for of Titans or tools for Titans was like, you can get that as a content from a prompt right now, which is like, okay, what was Steve Jobs' philosophy on product?

2:39:33Yeah. Is this just for like how-to books? Or is like, I'd be very curious if the trend of people buying books is also going down. Well, the number of books published is tripling. Why? You're helping. I buy a ton of books. I know, I know. But you're doing such good summaries that sometimes I'm sure people listen. No, I sell a ton of books. Yeah, you sell a ton of books. And you service books that are out of print and stuff. Over 10 ,000 a year just for people using the link. like yeah yeah yeah you service books that are uh like it's not a substitute for the product but well i don't know i mean i'm friends with morgan housel and like his books his psychology money book has been out for like five years i think it's selling more now than it ever has i can imagine that yeah there's some sort of divide there because you could go to an ai system and ask for like teach me about the psychology of money you could go tell me a fiction story now maybe it's not as good but when you're compiling information into a book uh this was sort of uh tim ferris's reflection as well he was saying that like a book that that categorizes information collects information specifically might not be as competitive in the in the in the future i like tim i've been reading his the four-hour work week i read when i was like in college or like when it first came out um i went on this podcast recently and i think that conversation we had but i would also say it's like i would want to see data when it's not tied to like your audience oh so like he took a break from his podcast for a little bit his it might like his audience might be different than it was yeah that's true you see what i'm saying yeah in a sense that we're like a just pure author like a morgan house well i guess he has a big audience on x2 yeah like i'd be curious also it's interesting that the the four-hour work week was like a meme and an idea and maybe it was a strategy or just somewhere that you got you know this is the first time i've seen dylan in person oh really yeah well here he is are you moving to la or what come on he never knows he never sorry but but i don't think i don't think uh i don't think if you asked a bunch of you know young people today like do you think working four hours a week is going to get you to your goals i don't think anyone i don't i don't think that i think like the meme is now like you have two years kind of thing, you know, like you got to lock in and like locking in is like somewhat at odds with just working for four hours from the tropics.

2:41:48I would say this is again where I think nothing we're doing is new. So if you go back and like, why do you guys have this like cult like following? Why do you have so many people that root for you that love you? It's like, they don't look at you as like a public figure or God forbid a celebrity. They're like, oh, these are my friends, John and Jordy, even if I've never met them before. Like I was hiking this morning and this guy was coming down and like i thought he was talking to himself but i have like obviously i'm not i'm like locked in i have headphones in and he like waves and stuff but i was like maybe he's just waving to somebody else or whatever he chased me up the fucking hill i got to the hill and like he wanted to come and talk to me because he's been listening to the podcast for years um so i think again i get a lot of my information from lms now right i definitely think it can be a substitute or a threat or diminish the amount of people listen to your podcast.

2:42:38But I also think podcasting done right for people that actually love it, it's much more relationship-based. And the reason I bring up Oprah is because I did this episode on her a few years ago and she realized she was onto something weird because she had Tom Cruise on her show. And people were like, oh my God, you're my favorite movie star. But they'd come up to her and they're like, hey, you want to come to my house for lunch? It's like that's not the same relationship that you have. It's a very deep, almost like friend relationship. Yeah, we saw her do an interview and it was electric. It was like watching LeBron James do it.

2:43:07Did you? Yeah, it was crazy. At Katzenberg's thing? Yeah. Okay, I saw her at Dell's thing. What's your process for getting better at your craft? It's just reps, reps, reps. Consistency? Yeah, yeah. I do think there is something to do with like, I've been trying to essentially say, okay, I don't want an episode of Founders, for example, to be longer than an hour. And even the new show, some of the conversations I was having were like two and a half, three hours. And I'm like, I kind of want to see if I can just like get all the stuff that I want out of this person's brain in like an hour, hour and ten.

2:43:39So now I have like the guy that's running my camera, he gives me like an hour warning. Now if the conversation is still going or if there's still stuff I want to learn and understand, I'll keep it going, but I try to keep them really, really tight. That was something that Pulitzer did too. I remember because I first read his biography like five, six years ago, is they used to have these newspapers that were bounded by page length. and it was like, you got four pages, buddy. So you better put the best news on these four pages. You can't go above four pages. So I think designing and constraints, I think reps.

2:44:08You were just on the phone with Rob. Rob told me because I saw him in Italy. And the team is over there for a wedding and obviously flew back as soon as I could. And he said you called him. He's like, David, he's like, Senra has to be going crazy for not podcasting for two weeks. Yeah, I feel the difference. difference uh i've been like so busy that sometimes i'll let founders slip instead of every seven days it's like every 10 or every god forbid like 14 and i feel the difference so like it really is just reps reps reps and just staying in the pocket over and over again and again doing it because you actually want to do it like uh you know on the new show like i feel very sad when i don't podcast i could easily if i had an entrepreneur in front of me and this is what we're working on now is is stuffing the top of our funnel you put me with an entrepreneur that i'm just intensely interested in.

2:44:53I could have a conversation like that every day for sure. It's not work. It's like something I'm like completely obsessed with. So I think that's, that's really it. What have you learned about podcasting from Andrew Huberman?

2:45:08I don't know. Um, I don't know if I've learned anything from Andrew. The only person I've ever come across where that I'm like, fuck, this guy knows more than I do is Roman, the head of podcasts at Spotify to the point where like, I'm like, dude, I will fly to Germany once a quarter just to have lunch with you. Interesting. Yeah. Like he, and we were like completely, he doesn't have a podcast. No, but he's really the person running their podcast before again, this is like your motivations matter. It's like, what's that famous Josh Kushner quote where he's just like, if you have to pick the person that has the most experience, the most resources, or who wants it most, you always pick the person that wants it most.

2:45:47This guy wants it more than anybody else. He's an unabashed podcast fiend, and then he's got this God-level view of podcasting. And so I just fucking... The only Josh Kushner quote that I know off the top of my head is, what if it all goes right? That's a great one, too. Default optimism. It's a great one. Yeah, default optimism. It's electric. I think Rob Moore would be a better person to ask that question to because he's now working with both me and Andrew. Of course, of course. And what he says, he's like, there's only two people in all of podcasting that can do a solo episode, can crush as a guest and interview.

2:46:22And he's like, it's just you and Andrew. Patrick. Oh, Patrick won't. Oh, yeah, Patrick doesn't do solo episodes. Maybe it was Colossus. No, no, I'm just saying hat trick. Oh, I said pat trick. Oh, no, pat trick. So did I. Wait, wait, what is the second one? Solo episode, can crush as a guest and do an interview. Oh, as a guest. Yeah, as a guest. That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's rare. Yeah, as a guest. The triple threat. But no, I think a lot of this is what Jordy was asking when you just went to the bathroom. Part of it is like, I mean, I think you guys are like this. Like, you don't really look around to other podcasters to like what you should be doing.

2:46:56There's a line by the weekend where he's just like, competition, I don't even listen. It's just like, because then you want to limit. I spent time with, you know, the company Benning Spoons? Yeah. So I spent time with Luca Ferrari in Sweden. He's been on the show. And yeah, yeah. He's a, what you realize about him is like, and let me get to Dana White too about this. I see a large IPO on the horizon. The way he. They're going out in the next couple of weeks. I just texted him. He's coming on the show, but he's like, I can't do it right now. I'm in my quiet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't record though.

2:47:29But he's a friendly IPO. He literally doesn't pay attention to anything else. So he's got like a Galapagos Island version of company building. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like the way he approaches it and the conversation we had that one night was just like, oh, you're an interesting dude. And Dana White, I would say, is the exact same. So we got along like amazing. And then we hung out a bunch afterwards. And, you know, he said the funniest thing because somebody texted me. They're like, dude, I love the episode, but you like missed a big opportunity. I'd love to know like what books influenced Dana. And I was like, I screenshotted this text between me and somebody else.

2:48:06Dana told me after we started recording he's just like I've never read a book and I've never listened to a podcast never read a book again go back to taste he was obsessed with boxing before he got into combat to MMA and then he was managing fighters and then he saw the opportunity to buy the UFC for 2 million dollars out of bankruptcy and then all he did is like I'm the biggest fan of this like I should just make what I want to see and he said i think on the episode he's like we never did production i didn't know what had a camera i didn't know anything he's just like i just figured okay what do i want to see and let's just work backwards from that yeah yeah i was talking talking to a buddy who spent 20 years in in cable tv and uh he was asking like what is our routine and uh the the traditional cable route to do you know a few hours of television is so wildly different than at least what we do they typically if they're going live at 4 p.m they have a 7 a.m meeting where they're going over uh they're going over what the show is going to look like everybody's kind of aligning and i was like well we show up at 9 a.m and then at 10 55 the production team says five minutes and hits a countdown and everything has to happen basically in that sub two hours.

2:49:30Yeah, I think this is another thing. If we had gone and like read the book on television, we probably would have started that we would have been starting the show. I listened to the Johnny Carson episode, Founders. I know, but that didn't influence like the schedule of the show. And that, that like, to me, that's understanding like the, the person. It influenced me in the sense that I was more comfortable with you permanently living in Malibu because Johnny Carson did. I fucking called this. Do you remember a year and a half ago? I was like, most people make generational wealth and then move to Malibu.

2:50:08I go, Jordy, you're going to create generational wealth from Malibu. I called, did I not? Do you remember that conversation? I forgot about that. I did when I moved there. I was like damn I retired too early I told you I seriously went through like a one year period where I was like what did I do I remember I'm like there's like because everyone all my friends in Malibu I love them dearly they'll be like they'll text me like Tuesday 11am going to the beach like you down to surf right now and I'm like brother I'm still trying to work I gotta tell you what happened to me there the other day it was people say stuff to me on the street all the time but this guy in Malibu said the funniest shit I ever said or ever heard I'll get to you in one second.

2:50:49I want to say about your process where you just said comparing and contrasting how like corporate TV it is and you guys do it. Sure. Another thing that Ed Catmull would talk about and him and Steve Jobs is like he understood that the creative process was in large parts an absence of process. And so if you think, okay, this is how TV is done, 7 a.m., 8 a.m., 10, 15, I have to do X, Y, and Z. It's just like that's too much process. Yeah. And it's like the creative, if you want to be really creative, it's like in the absence of process. So I was walking across the street, maybe around Malibu, maybe I wasn't there.

2:51:18and this entrepreneur who sold his company. Like you said, everybody there has already exited. So he's driving his truck. His windows are down. He's got his surfboards in the back. He's going to surf, and he slams on the brake in the middle of the highway or the middle of the road, and he just sticks his head out the window, and he goes, Senra, you dog. And the rest of the day, I said that for like 10. I kept saying it over and over. Senra, you dog. You dog. That's great. It was hilarious. That's funny. Dude, I forgot about that. Yeah, you created generational wealth, and you're still going. Yeah, I'm still going.

2:51:53You're still going. Still going. It's a good time. Still going. No, that was very rough. In the first year moving there, I loved it, but I was constantly on Zillow looking at places that weren't there. Where? No, I just felt like I was shooting myself in the foot by not being around people that were in the same state of mind that I was in, which was very much like on the hunt. Do you have that belief still? No, I mean, part of the beauty of TBPN, it was like the only business in technology that I felt like I could actually build while having that as my primary residence. Not even like venture capital.

2:52:36Like, do you really want to back the, would you want to back the VC who's going to tell you I'm going to spend like 100 and 200 days in Malibu next year? Or the company, the company. Yeah, because like... No, no, no, VC too. VC too, because like there are, I know plenty of VCs that have a place in Malibu, but many of them have a place in SF or New York. The larger point, maybe let me refine my question. It's like, do you feel that you have to be around people that are chasing the same thing as you are? Or do you think there's a benefit to actually being separate from that?

2:53:12Not anymore. I like going and going to a barbecue with my family and like our friends. No, no, no. I'm not talking like you specifically. Like, do you think that's necessary? Not just for you? Always go where the action is. Like if you're a first time tech founder, move to San Francisco, live really close to all the big companies because that will be your employees. Those will be your friends. Those will be your investors. Like obviously go where the action is. Like almost always. Yeah. I think just my personality type is more like loner kind of thing where it's just like. You have a unique business.

2:53:48You don't need to hire. You don't need to hire. You don't really need to hire people. You're not trying to poach from the labs and the big tech companies constantly. Like there's so, you know, you heard that story about Mark Zuckerberg, like making soup for AI researchers or something like that. I didn't hear that story. It's hard. Yeah. If you're not like the reason Adobe and Steve Jobs were going back and forth, Apple was because they were right across the town from each other. It'd be a lot different. if one of them was asleep at the wheel. Yeah, I think if like, if like power laws rule everything around us and differentiation is like key, I think maybe like separating yourself from that.

2:54:22Like, I mean, Microsoft started in a strip mall in Albuquerque, you know? Amazon, like he drove cross country from New York after quitting D.E. Shaw and set up in Seattle. Like there are a bunch of historical examples. Like I don't think there's like a hard and fast rule. Yeah, of course, not a hard rule in general. And I think there should be like, I think the weirder the idea is I mean, James Dyson owns 100 % of a company that is one of the largest, most valuable privately held companies in the world. And he did it in a carriage house in Bath, England. Oh, really? Yeah. I thought it was all Santa Barbara.

2:54:54Am I wrong about that? Dyson? Dyson's fucking from the UK, brother. I'm thinking Sonos or something. Yeah. I don't know. Somebody's on the beach. Yeah. What's the oldest entrepreneur you've ever covered? Have you ever done anyone from like the 17th century? Oh, I thought you meant oldest age. Not age. That's probably Henry Leland. Sorry. So Henry Leland founded Cadillac at 60 and founded Lincoln Motors at 70. You got to do Workday. Yeah. Founder Workday was maybe 60, 65. Really? Yeah. But yeah. There was a guy from the 1500s. His name was like - You did an episode about a founder from the 1500s?

2:55:27I don't think it's that good. Did they do a loom or something? No. His last name was like fucker, but it's not. It's Fuger. Jacob Fuger. Okay. Jacob Fuger. Today we're profiling the founder. Can you find out the name of the book for me? I think it's like the richest man ever lived or something like that. You had a profile of the founder who created the wheel. F-U-G-G-E-R. The richest man who ever lived. There you go. Wait, really? The richest man who ever lived. Yeah. No way. Yeah. I wonder if that's what's up. But he's more of like a financier, and I think those kind of – I think you might have to update the title.

2:55:54Elon's on a run right now. Yeah. Might be any day now. Yeah, maybe so. But yeah, that's like less interesting to me than somebody like building a product. Yeah. Than just some guy like figuring out ways to turn piles of money to bigger piles of money. Yeah. So how valuable is it for the new show interviewing founders who are sort of like on to the next thing post exit a little bit more free almost pseudo retired. I'm just thinking about between like Ed Cuttmull, Rick Rubin, Dana White like Dana White has like a schedule. He has a book to talk. He has a plan. He has a next fight to promote versus Rick Rubin and Ed Cuttmull can sort of reflect on a body of work a little bit more.

2:56:39I mean, Rick's still working every day. I mean, he had that great, there's a clip from there that went on fireball called like lazy workaholic. Yeah, that's a great pointage. I think, I don't think in those terms. I just think of like, is the person sitting across from me? Like I've invited and recorded podcasts with some of our mutual friends and their response to me is like, they're not out. I've done like, I don't know, like 14 or 15 that I've recorded, haven't put out yet, something like that. Maybe 12. And they're like, why? Strategic reserve. No, no, no. Just I'm addicted and I have to do this more.

2:57:05No, I know, but it's good that there is a strategic reserve of founder interviews, God forbid. But originally they were like, oh, I don't fit in with like, you know, the Dell or Eck. I'm like, not everybody's going to be a deca-billionaire. It's just like that's not the rubric. It's like do you have like a singular career and am I intensely interested in having a conversation with you? Because I'm doing these for selfish reasons. It's just like I'm trying to – there's like shit in your head that I want out that would benefit me. And I just assume that everybody listening, there's like 10 million me's out there or a million me's out there that are interested in the exact same things that I'm interested in.

2:57:43Like, you know, Ravi Gupta? You don't have Ravi on the podcast. We've had him on. The Guptinator. Yeah, I ran into him in Miami. I think this is right after – I forgot which episode dropped. He was really buff in Invest Like the Best cover art. You remember? Yeah. Yeah. But they made him like yellow. I remember. I was in a group chat with him and Patrick. He's like, what the fuck is this? But anyways, Robbie. I think John is joking because we. You made a version of him. I saw it. Maybe it was enhanced. No, he's talking about his skin color in the one I'm talking about. But I ran to Robbie randomly outside a restaurant in Miami.

2:58:15And he had mentioned just listening to or watching one of the episodes of the new show. And what he said was interesting. He's like, man, it really annoys me how good you're getting at this. because you know exactly when to interrupt and ask a question for your audience. That's interesting. And I go, thanks for, I guess, the compliment. I go, I don't think about the audience at all. I'm interrupting and asking a question for me. And I just assume that you have the exact same interests that I do and you're going to want to know the answers to that question. Yeah, yeah. Again, it goes back to taste and having a perspective and a point of view.

2:58:49And there's some people that hate the fact that interrupt. Yeah. Okay, there's 464 ,000 other podcasts in the business category. Take a hike. Go grab one of those. Take a hike. Do any of the guests get annoyed by that or give you feedback about that? Because you've got to care about them, right? The guest experience matters. No. Yes. But no, they understand. Most of the – especially for the first ones, they were fans of mine. They listened to founders for years. And they know that we're both obsessed with the same thing. which is like learning from history as a form of leverage. And no, in many cases, they've texted me after the fact.

2:59:29They're like, I've been on a ton of other podcasts, and you met my nerdy enthusiasm. He's like, they're not used to somebody being so into what they're talking about. And so no, I don't think so. Yeah. It's interesting. We talk over each other all the time when we're just hanging out, and sometimes we get comments like, I'll stop talking over each other. but we that was authentic but it was and it was purely enforced from the audience it was like like we didn't know that we were doing it the first time we got called out for talking over each other and we were like wait who are they talking about is john talking over geordie or geordie talking over john because we both do it because we both do it and so we were like we and we took a very different approach we were like okay this is feedback from the customer customers the audience like we probably should think about this and now at least be aware of it At least be aware of it.

3:00:19You guys still talk over each other. Yeah, we do, but we're a little bit better. We're a little bit better. No, I would say like having like when we hang out, you guys do that too. So like just do that. Yeah. Because somebody will – you cannot listen. Dana White would talk about this. This is like you can't listen to the comments. It would be like this fight was awesome. The same exact fight. This is the worst fight ever. It's like your audience is big enough that you're going to hear conflicting opinions on literally every single thing you do. Yeah. Like I have a good friend of mine who did the How to Take Over the World podcast and he started wanting to add sound effects to it And he loves like very dramatic music and stuff And and so he goes hey, can I get your advice on this and he sent me this like Twitter thread of People commenting on the fact that now he has He has sound elements people complain about this There you go.

3:01:09No one complains about the flashbangs. No, we there's there's some people out there that that every sound effect we have, there's someone out there that wants it off the board. No way. I pay attention. Are these just smoke grenade heads? Are they just smoke grenade fans? No, there's people that hate the laugh track. Okay, yeah. That's fair. I could see some situations. But there's probably people out there that will also come and say they love it. Yeah. Yeah! Is that Lil Jon? That's great. I got one over there. But my point being is like in Ben's thread, it was like the music's awesome, keep doing it.

3:01:51The music sucks, stop. It's like, so what do you do there? What is this? Do you have a check mark? Dude, why the fuck do I look so tan on that? What's up with the lighting here? We got lighting, we got color grade, we got all sorts of stuff. Yeah, that's a swear jar. I've given up, man. Every time I come on here. You're the only guest. Yeah, you used to try pretty hard not to share. We need to lock this behind an age-gated paywall. We need to do KYC on the center episodes. Oh, so, okay, that's another complaint I get all the time. Why do you push so much? I make podcasts for entrepreneurs. You ever talk to one?

3:02:23Yeah, yeah, I swear. Most of them are mature and adults, but, you know. No! Elon said in the Isaacson biography, his favorite word is fuck. That's in print. Yeah, but you can't, I mean, Elon is singular. He also has sort of a different framework for what is, I think that's, I think a normal entrepreneur shouldn't be like, well, Elon does this thing where, you know, he does something that's maybe not politically correct. So I can do it too. It's like not necessarily going to work as well for you as it does for the singular. is an 80-year-old gentleman. And the clip that we just put out there, he's like, most companies say they want truth and they're full of shit.

3:03:11He's not. It's just how you talk. It's how you speak. Yeah. I had something else. Oh, GTA 6. Cover art has been revealed. Team's excited. Releasing on November 19th. Can you put it up on the big screen or no? It's on the timeline. We can put it up. You can see that. When was it released? The release, the reveal was today. The funniest quote from the Strauss Zelnick That's what I was going to ask you about First of all, I used your PowerLaw podcast episode Thank you for sending me the prep, by the way It was very, very helpful The funniest quote I saw from that Or the funniest comment I saw from the Strauss Zelnick episode I did Was, those eyes have seen GTA 6 You know, he caught salmonella poisoning So, like, within three hours of us finishing the interview he was like de-habilitated and seconded by.

3:04:02Oh, he told me about that. Yeah, he was talking about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, thank God it happened three hours later. It came out really well. I saw a whole 20-minute reaction video to your interview with him, praising him for being like the only sane CEO right now in the world of AI because he gave like very logical, very inspiring answers to the questions of how they'll use AI, but they're still a role for this and that. And it was like so balanced. and it's not what you're getting from a lot of AI leaders these days or a lot of CEOs. What did you think of his, he definitely has a different opinion on it.

3:04:36What did you think of his take on that? Oh, I think he's 100 % right. But I just think that a lot of people see the stock market as unfairly punishing them, and if they needed to do some layoff from overhiring a couple years ago, they can do it and say, oh, it's because so much AI. We already saw this with the whole Klarna saga, where there was like a, oh, we're not using Salesforce anymore, And then you watch and you see like Anthropic literally hiring Salesforce admins. Clearly there's some revealed preference going on there. And yeah, I think he's the one that he just doesn't have to talk that specific book.

3:05:12He's appealing to creatives, gamers, his customers, you know, the executives that he works with. He's not as beholden to like some broad narrative. He actually did go through like a Saspocalypse for a little bit. everyone was you talked to him about this how everyone would say oh you're just going to be able to one one shot prompt a game and uh and he's like that's not what makes the games profitable and so a lot of the business leaders maybe even if they do understand they have an economic incentive not to reveal like the truth about their business which is that maybe their mode is something completely different than what people think it is and maybe they don't want to reveal that and so they don't want to let you know uh how they really make money or how how locked in the customers.

3:05:56I mean, this is the famous, uh, what is it? Teal line? Like the monopolist says the competition's never been fiercer. And then the entrepreneur in the perfectly competitive market says we have a monopoly where, you know, no one, no one can compete with us. Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of CEOs and founders I've talked to privately and what they say publicly about AI is completely different than what they're saying. It's like, it's job creation. It's like, that's not what you said last week. Do you keep a list of people that you meet now that you think will have biographies about them in 20, 30 years?

3:06:34No, no. Because I think you should. Because I assume you're going to be... This is an interesting question. How far ahead do you guys look? What? Like, in your life, your career, like... I'll talk to some people and they're like, what's your like 10 year, my plans are measured in centuries. People say that you should have wildly unprofitable companies. They should just get past the next fundraise, brother. No, like I, maybe I'm like retard maxing and Patrick definitely thinks I do. But like, I literally just thinking like the next day, the next, like, what is it? That's not a curse word, is it?

3:07:11Yeah. Low class. That one, never, never say that one. but um uh no but but i but i get your point you're just kind of like focused on the next yeah the idea that i know what's going to take place five or ten or 20 years from now i think it's like i know but i i just think it'd be interesting you know you're sitting down for an interview with someone you know in 20 years and if you can show them a note and say like hey the first time i met you i thought you were you know special the idea that i would keep anything for 20 years like i have almost no possessions like i don't i don't like i don't tend to like look back or like linger.

3:07:45Like I literally just think about the next 24 hours and design like did this 24, did I design a 24 hours I like? Cool. Let me do that again and again and again. I think one of the worst things I could have done, it's like, especially at the beginning of founders when no one was listening, it's just like, what's my one year plan? It's just like, I don't know. I'm going to make another podcast and I got to figure out how to get listeners and get better at doing this. And then just never stop doing that. This is, I think time carries most of the weight. Like this is one of the most, I think like reoccurring patterns when you're reading all these biographies of history-based entrepreneurs.

3:08:13Just like, you have someone smartest, most productive people ever live, constantly getting the future wrong. And in many cases, like, just staying in the game long enough to get lucky. Just keep doing it over and over and over again. And trust in yourself that you'll figure it out and you'll make the right decision. I mean, think about it. You guys have been around for, what, 17 months, right? And even in that short 17-month period. You're kind of closer than I am. Wow. Right? Am I right or not? I've been able to say a lot of the time. Okay. Yeah, so that sounds right. In that short 17-month period, you've probably made 10 ,000 little decisions about your business, 5 ,000.

3:08:43Like whatever the number is, it's a lot. And just these little ways. Henry Singleton, I guess, had the best way to put this. So Henry Singleton is the guy that Warren Buffett said that it's a crime that schools, business schools don't study him. Charlie Munger said that Henry Singleton was the smartest person he ever met. Never heard of him. Yeah. Are you serious? Yeah. Okay, Teledyne Corporation. It was a conglomerate back in like the 60s. Singles did ever go money spread? Did he have chrome? Yeah, did he wear chrome? I don't know. What is this? Chrome hearts? No, I'm joking, but I said I don't know because I want you to explain.

3:09:22So his whole thing was just like, you know, he doesn't have a master plan. He's like, I like to come to work every day and steer the boat like a little bit every day. and this guy was like you know again Munger said he's the highest IQ person smartest person you ever met and he's just like I don't have a grand plan he's just like I'm just going to come to work and like make little adjustments every single day I just know I'm going to keep doing this for you know decade after decade and I think he ran his company for like 25 years or something like that

3:09:48we have Jake Paul joining us in just a few minutes he's running late can you hang out for a bit? yeah you want me to? yeah hang out like until we get off? yeah for sure cool Well, great catching up with you. We've got to talk about the Shrek. The Shrek. It's a Shrek-themed truck. They did it. Oh, my God. It's breaking news. Thanks for hanging. We've got to cover it on the show. Let's pull up. See you in a bit. Can we pull up the Shrek? This is important news. Everyone needs to know. We were talking about the GT3 RS from Porsche that is Buzz Lightyear-themed. We were joking about a Shrek-themed Ferrari Luce, but it turns out that some entrepreneur, some enterprising young man on Instagram Reels created a Shrek.

3:10:28It's a Shrek-themed truck, and we have a video here in the timeline, right after the GTA VI cover art that was revealed earlier today. GTA VI, of course, is releasing November 19th, but let's play this video. I don't even need the IEMs. We can hear it. There you go, the Shrek. You want to watch Shrek tonight? Absolutely. The Shrek is going strong. See, the ears are what make it. Green truck doesn't do it until you put the ears on there. Look at that. I might need to get one of these. That's a good Malibu daily. I think you need it. Just an everywhere daily. Hey, we got Jake Paul. He's here. Come sit down.

3:11:05Jeff Wu, too. How you doing? Let's run it. What's up? What's up? I hate it. How are you? Good to see you. Good to see you. What's up, bro? How are you? Good to meet you. Tell us the news. You raised a bunch of money. Bro, we just want to smack that gong. 100 million oversubscribed. There we go.

3:11:24Wow, come on. Great to see you. Great to see you. Thank you. Well, it's about the fun. Who do you raise money from? Are you talking to endowments now? Are these your friends? Is it all your money? What's going on there? You're good. Yeah, a lot of our own money. We have a 10%, maybe even more. It's like 10%, 12%, 13%, 14 % GP commit. Getting in the game. Yeah, our lead investor is Aquarian Holdings. So shout out to Rudy and Eric. They've believed in us for a long time. They doubled down into our growth fund, and it's been a great relationship with them. And then, yeah, just like other people that we know in our network.

3:12:04Yeah. Highlights from the fund so far. Sorry, I was going to say, like, I think going from more of just investing our own money, I think we are going more institutional, right? So Aquarian, they manage$27 billion plus as an insurance holding company. So I think we're just proving our sophistication as fiduciaries, as investors to be like, hey, endowments, institutions, we can compound money faster and better than other VCs can for you. How is the strategy changing with the new fund? Is it changing? I think like number of checks, check size, ownership, all that good stuff. Yes. Time has gone on.

3:12:41I think the barbell approach for us has been very successful. I think going big with bigger checks into growth stages in companies that we believe in with the best founders. You know, you don't bet against Palmer, Lucky, Elon, Sam, the big names like that. And getting to fast DPI, you know, going into SpaceX and XAI, working with Jared Birchall to get into some of those rounds. And then, you know, you're liquid very quickly. And so I think that's very attractive and putting bigger checks into companies like that. And then on venture one, early stage, you know, and getting in, betting on founders from day one sometimes and yet taking that more venture approach on that side of things.

3:13:31We've deployed our full venture one. This is our growth one. Going into venture two now, raising for that. and then pretty much fully deployed on growth one. We've been working on it for the past, you know, eight months, getting into a lot of these big companies and actually going into growth two already. And so we've just had tons of great access. And I think that's obviously the key. And just we're hustling and in all the right rooms, providing marketing support, consultant support on that side of things, which a lot of these companies need. That's what we've realized in every room that we go into, whether it's, I mean, I won't say names, but pretty much everyone needs users.

3:14:11Sure. And so distribution. You'd be surprised at the level of marketing knowledge that these companies have. It's like day one, very basic. These are the most technical companies in the world, right? But they're not the best at breaking through to grow their users. And so we've just been able to really help on that side of things. And the most basic 30-minute call about marketing is extremely helpful for these companies. Yeah, take us through it. Like, what are you actually talking to a tech company that might have their pitch dialed for investors or engineers? Or even customers once they get them on a call.

3:14:49Customers. But, like, it's just that whatever story they're telling, it's not resonating with just the normal person. And I feel like you've gone so big with everything that you've done that you've touched every part of America, the world globally. And you can probably offer more feedback and advice on just like how to tell a story as a company that resonates outside of this tiny little enclave in San Francisco. Yeah, no, correct. I mean, I went from Vine to then it was YouTube, then Facebook popped off, then Snapchat was the thing. Me and my brother were the first people making Snapchat stories, like a full content.

3:15:31Evan Spiegel invites us out asking us like how we like the app. What could we change in Venice? And then it went, you know, to all these different platforms, TikTok, Reel. So it's been however many years, like 14, 15 years of knowing exactly how to talk to the audience and be relatable and grow brands and my own brands from Better, W, Anti -Fund, MVP, becoming the biggest boxing company in the last four years. and so I could do it from a personal side but I also understand it from a corporate side and I think a lot of the times you know these companies raise all this money they have a big balance sheet they're printing cash and they get really corporate with their messaging and they want to create like a one two three four million dollar commercial and I think oftentimes that doesn't reach the audience and so it's actually just a lot of times telling them to be more relatable and to scale down and to tell their story in a easier to understand way and obviously I'm summarizing and it depends on like what the company is right we've helped companies market you know towards engineers because that you know there may be just an engineering product and And so it's like, how do we appeal to that side of things?

3:16:57So each case is different. But, yeah, it's just second nature. And I think it's been pretty helpful on the cap table. Do you remember the first piece of content you ever created? I was born on camera. And I didn't know that until like two years ago. My mom's like, look at this footage of you being born. I was like, oh, great. You've never shown me this. It's like, what are we doing, mom? Like, this is a great part of the story. The face of the whole influencer era, you know. What about the first time, the first platform that you were on, or the first series, or the first, like, the first content where you're like, okay, this is, I'm taking this seriously?

3:17:39Yeah, I would say it was Vine. So I downloaded Vine the first day it came out. It was promoted through Twitter. I was like, oh, this is super interesting. and I just started making videos in like my cafeteria and school and just doing random stuff. I was like the class clown. I loved making videos. Me and my brother had been on YouTube before that, just messing around, cooking up edits with our video camera and posting it on YouTube. So we were naturally kind of like good at making the content. And when Vine came out, I thought it was super cool. I got to like 40 followers. everyone in the high school was like this is hilarious your videos are funny um and then me and my brother got into an argument about like how to film a video and i was like bro i have more followers than you like shut up and i had like yeah 40 followers and he had like 20 and i'm off him so hard that day and that's what that's actually what changed everything because the next day he started like putting a ton of effort into his vine videos and i was watching him i was like oh that was really good oh oh he's really doing this and then he got to like 80 followers i was at like 80 and then we just kept on putting more effort and like two weeks later one of the videos that we made went viral and once we tasted that success we both gained like 5 000 followers we were like oh my gosh we're famous like this is it we're the coolest people ever um and once we figured out that recipe of like the level it took to make a viral video we just kept on cranking that level out and it just one thing led to another and once we realized we could make money from it I got paid like$200 for my first brand deal and I was landscaping I had my own landscaping company and I was making$10 an hour and I was like$200 for a six second video I don't have to be in the hot sun exactly and that was the motivation to just like take it even more serious has the nature of the competition between you and your brother changed yeah i think when we were younger it was like very intense and still there and we were just like young and it was actually good because there was no one else to compete with we were the two biggest vloggers in the world.

3:20:06And so I was, it was inspiration and competition at the same time. And then as we've gotten older, we're just like collaborative now. And we're on the same team. Obviously he's a general partner in Antifund and we work together on a lot of things and everything that he does benefits me and vice versa. And so it's like building out a, we're the testosterone Kardashians essentially it's just like i any given day of the week you got to see one of our faces somewhere so the kardashians of testosterone how do you how do you think about uh capacity uh you've got a great partner and jeff with antifun but you know multiple businesses it feels like there's always some ceiling maybe you haven't found it yet but uh yeah where what's the limit yeah it's a good question I mean, every year I've just continued to compound since I was 16 years old.

3:21:08And I think it's just a testament to scale, team, having great partners on all different sides of the business and the best in class. From Gus, the best videographer in the world, to Laura and all these people around are just top notch. And I think that's been a massive part of it. And then just continuing to see ahead and know where the ball is going. I think that's one of my best attributes is being a visionary and being able to pivot, move, change, adapt, and continue to grow my career that way. But again, I think it just goes back to team. And I'm inspired by people like Elon, where it's like, how do you have, you know, four or five, six of the biggest, some of the biggest companies in the world?

3:22:05I mean, obviously, he's a machine and I don't stop. I work all the time around the clock. And it's like, even if I'm doing something fun, I'm filming it to be posted as content. So like it's just nonstop grind for the past, you know, 14 years. And I just love hard work. What's the future of boxing in America? Yeah, that's an interesting category because it's not you're going up against, you know, the biggest the biggest names, the biggest balance sheets in the world competing over a market that historically hasn't been a monopoly. But maybe, you know, there are some efforts to try to create a monopoly in that space.

3:22:48Yeah, it's not going to work. I think so many people have tried to take over the sport of boxing, and it's just too diversified, too many sanctioning bodies with the belts, too many fighters and promoters and managers involved. And it's a sport that is always going to be scattered across the board. and I think our strategy on that was essentially we're the WNBA of boxing because we've cornered a market in women's boxing and believed in Amanda Serrano since day one and that was really the test case to say okay we can make a woman a massive star and take her from making$500 a fight to five million dollars a fight and no one is pushing women's boxing they deserve to be pushed their fights are arguably more entertaining especially than floyd mayweather for sure without a doubt and we saw that and we were like all right let's go after women's boxing because it's it's untapped and now we have you know seven out of the 10 pound for pound best women fighters and uh 40 overall some of the best up-and-coming talent and that's where we found a little bit of a niche as well as being the leaders of working with Netflix.

3:24:18I think pay-per-view, there's so much piracy and so many issues with that. And so I was the first one to be like, all right, there was the TV era of boxing. Then there was the pay-per-view era. And then I was like, now we're in the streaming era. And so realizing that we had to pivot the business model to be accessible, where it's like if you have Netflix or one of these subscriptions, you're not going to want it. You don't care. You're going to pay the$7 a month or$10 a month or whatever it is now. And getting distribution that way, obviously I'll probably still do pay-per-view fights here and there, but we're definitely moving into the streaming era of boxing.

3:25:01How do you think the Tyson fight broke Netflix, right? Oh, yeah, it did, right? That literally broke the platform. For such a storied engineering team over there for decades. How have you approached negotiating with platforms like a Netflix? What does your team look like for that? Yeah, so my business partner and most valuable promotions, Nikisa Bedarian, is one of the best negotiators in the world. But he was the CFO at UFC when they sold to Endeavor. And he helped lead the sale. and was a part of their organization for many years. So you think Dana took that personally? Oh, yeah, that's a whole big part of the beef.

3:25:48It's not just me. It's the fact that, yeah, Nakisa and I have teamed up together. So, yeah, definitely a sore subject for Dana. and yeah, I think it's just having the relationships and making the right fights at the right moments and we've also put on amazing events and have great relationships with so many fighters and so we're able to pull together the Ronda Rousey's, the Francis Ngannou's, the Nate Diaz's, the Mike Perry's because we've always been fighter first. So people love working with us. We came into the world that was, I say it was like taxi and we're Uber in the fight world. The way we run things is like a startup professional treating fighters, right?

3:26:40We're on time. We're pay, you know, instantly. All these little details, production, fighter kits, helping them, instant communication, social media tips, the list goes on. These things are all like super basic to me. and the kisa but in the fighting world it's like fighters will fight and then like not get paid for like a year and the just like there's so many issues in the sport so just by running it like a proper sf startup we've amongst many other things but we that's where the why we've been able to become the number one promoter in the sport in four years when a lot of these other people have I've been doing it for 30, 40, 50 years.

3:27:25I mean, Bob Arum, I don't even know. That guy's like 100 years old. He probably was alive when the T-Rexes were running around. So it's like just these small little changes are why we've risen to the top. How do you think the results of America 250 are going to impact the UFC? On one hand, the Gaethje story of coming back from this really brutal knockout a couple years ago to then getting the belt is amazing, but at the same time, in the process, he took out a rising global superstar. And so I can make an argument that it's good or bad for the UFC, but I'm wondering how you processed it. Yeah, look, I think the event overall was great and great for fight sports in general.

3:28:16And it was such an entertaining show. So I think overall for all of MMA, it's a net positive. And I think it just depends how Aaliyah comes back, right? I mean, I think Conor McGregor has lost so many times, but his brand has, you know, stayed up there because he just keeps on fighting he keeps on coming back he keeps on trying and so I think it's up to Ilya on that one but yeah Justin Gaethje is like overnight superstar legend and we'll see you know how far he can go from here at at his older age but overall what's the mindset of a of of a fighter that's rising you know through the ranks when you have a fight like Ilya just had you're taking damage that's gonna probably stay with you in some capacity forever are fighters like pretty acutely aware that at any point you could take a beating that like you makes it a lot harder to come back from I'm sure you've gone through yeah look I think they're definitely aware of it.

3:29:27I think the thing is, is that they're just addicted to the sport and it's really all they know. Um, and they're willing to sacrifice for that thrill and for that entertainment, for the love of the game. So, um, I don't think they necessarily care. And you know, that going into the sport, that it's, that it's brutal and tough and rough on the body, and it's going to affect your health potentially in the long run. I think people deal with the effects of injuries differently, but to each their own. And I think a lot of fighters know what they're signing up for. How did you process the enhanced games?

3:30:15I always thought it was dumb. Yeah, from day one. Why? Why? It sounds like a good idea. You take something, Olympics is entertaining, you add steroids fuel to the fire. Like, this is Jordy's team. The best people in the world, like, you could take something, but the best people in the world are the ones who are the most dedicated to it for 20 years straight. So there's no replicating that 20-year dedication just because. Yeah, you take somebody that's, like, fifth best in the world, which seems not that far away from number one, and you give them all the PEDs, but the gap between five and gold is actually so big that you can give them, again, give them a horse worth of testosterone, and it's not going to make up the difference.

3:31:06Yeah, no, and again, I believe that's what happened. I didn't watch it. I saw some clip outs, but I heard the production was bad and that no one beat any records. And I think there was some, but there were some like people who weren't on PDs that beat the runners. I don't know. But my fiance is Olympic gold medalist. And she was like, if anyone, she just won in Milan. And she was like, if anyone tried to, like, do the enhanced games to beat her, like, she was like, no one's beating me still. So. Well, what about more broadly, health maxing, looks maxing, peptides? Do you have a take on the current trend?

3:31:54Yeah, look, I think it's amazing, right? Like you see today, you know, they just launched the new imaging. Yeah, mid-journey. Yeah, mid-journey. It's like the world we're living in is so exciting. And I've told my friends, you know, we were in SF with the Merge Labs guys. And Alex Blania was like, yeah, we're all going to live forever. Like we're just going to like transfer our mind into some robotic body. And so I think this whole like health wave. Do you believe it? Yeah, a thousand percent. Yeah, 100 percent. Do you think that'll be good for the fight game? Because I feel like there's a lot of insane athletes out there that would be incredible fighters, but they're just not willing to take that level, to make the sacrifice, to take that level of damage.

3:32:43And if we can solve, you know, CTE and, you know, some of these other things, it could actually make the most violent sports on earth. I don't think so. I think if someone's afraid of getting hit in the first place, they're not going to be a good fighter, even if they transfer into a robotic body. But also I don't think it would be entertaining. I think I'm very long on traditional human sports in terms of a business model because the story is what matters and everyone's on the same playing field. So when you put in, like, robots and all these perks and extra things and blah, blah, blah, I don't think people will enjoy it as much.

3:33:29What's your timeline to a humanoid being able to beat you in boxing? I'm sure very soon. I mean, bro, if I'm going up against a metal robot, I'd probably lose. I know, but speed matters. There's the will, the human spirit, human spirit. You're long the human spirit. Yeah, I think a computer spirit, there's no spirit. They just don't even feel the pain. It's just like straight up robot. It's like I robot in real life. It's happening right now. What about on the investing side? How much of your current thinking is like software only singularity, invest in the token path versus stuff like bio, health, defense, tech, hardware, robotics, all the next-gen stuff that's maybe not product market fit, not billion-dollar ARRs yet, but interesting.

3:34:23Yeah, I think it's really both, right? So we're pretty AI maxis here, so we're in open AI and then going down that stack, right? So you go down the inference providers like the modals, and then you go to the semiconductors. So we're in Etched, which is an inference ASIC. I love it. We just did Hellion, which is a fusion company. So I think in some sense, I think the software game is going to be won by an open AI, Anthropic, SpaceX, Google, maybe about cognition and some of these like second tier. The power law is being realized. Yeah, because I think there's just so much capital for just all the compute, all the models are getting bigger and bigger.

3:35:06So I think, I mean, partly we're here to just visit Al Segundo as well right after the show. So I think it is like defense tech, robotics, manufacturing. I think getting to atoms is more and more important. Yeah, going forward. And then secondly, I think BioCross AI is also very, very new. I think we're just texting with Sam Altman. He's like, yeah, we're like, it's still really early. He wasn't like, hey, there's obvious winners there yet. So I think in terms of finding that next wave, I think that will be robotics, hardware bio. What about celebrity brands? What's your framework for a successful celebrity brand?

3:35:45Yeah, I mean, I think we're not as excited around those often. I think it has to be like, leave it to me, buddy. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I think it's unless it's like the Kardashians or someone at that level, then it's, you know, very difficult. So we've been way more selective. And And then, you know, there's just way more upside on the tech and software side of things versus like CPG. And that's where we're spending our time, right? We're fiduciaries. So at the end of the day, and for our own money, so at the end of the day, it's like where is time best spent? And that's really how we think about it.

3:36:29I think to me, like Celeb is just like a solve for distribution. But it's not a full solve. because distribution is a flywheel. It's a half solid distribution is not, is not convert a million people over to this one time. It's how are you going to continue to grow? And hence like, I think product is actually most important. I think choosing the right market and the right product is everything. Distribution is just gasoline on that fire. Um, and then I think second, I think Jake is actually very special as a celeb entrepreneur, right? Like his story of just like you know being a landscaper right like i think a lot of celebrity folks that we've crossed paths with right they were really good at singing or dancing or playing a ball sport yeah since they're like 13 yeah so they never actually had to like actually like hustle their first brand deal actually think about business yeah tell a story yeah or or they or they or they're well known but they don't have an an owned audience right correct like it's very different like somebody that's posted every single day for you know 15 years to launch i think that's why like nfl players are very hard to cross over because like one their face is not even recognizable because they're in helmets all the time and then two the nfl owns their distribution right like nfl is their distribution channel they don't have an audience that they're used to speaking towards on a daily basis so i think the internet generation folks are interesting because they own that distribution and i think i'm lucky to work with jake because i think jake has the hybrid of both Like he's mainstreamed on the Netflix platforms as a professional athlete and has a respect of actually being good at a craft and an art and a sport.

3:38:04Plus he comes with like a what, like 200 million followers across different channels. So I think that's where it's like like an experiment for us where it's like, OK, we have a touch into mainstream, a touch into Internet. And I think there's also just like a hardcore capitalism, like heart that we're like, hey, how do we monetize the opportunity set? Are haters a source of strength? We were talking to Alex Karp about this. He says all the AI leaders have only haters, no fans. And he was saying, I at least have fans. I have a lot of haters, but I have fans. Are haters a source of strength? In the fullness of time, are you glad you have both fans and haters?

3:38:46Yeah, 100%. You know, I don't think anyone who does good things in this world or big things in this world doesn't have haters. I mean, it's the it's the day one story. And I honestly, you know, since day one, when I first went viral, the video I was talking about, like, I instantly. Yeah, instantly people in my school started hating. So, like, I don't even I don't even remember life without haters. Yeah, your mom took that video when you were born. I'm sure some of the nurses were like, yeah, this kid. They're like, yo, fuck this guy. Yeah, yeah. No, you have to have it. And good news travels fast, bad news travels faster.

3:39:29And the haters actually will talk about you more and say bad things. But at the end of the day, people don't really remember what was said. They just remember your name and your face. And so you could do with that what you want. And, you know, it's really they're adding to the algorithm at the end of the day. So it's really just math. And if you just have fans that are saying things, you know, let's say that's 10 ,000 people, but add 10 ,000 haters in there. And now 20 ,000 people are talking about you. And it just adds to clicks, views, talk, trending. So that's the way I've always looked at it.

3:40:08And, yeah, the biggest and best people in the world all are also the most hated. Ferrari Luce has a lot of haters. Will you be getting one? Say it again. The Ferrari Luce. Oh, bro. New electric vehicle from Ferrari. Are you in the market? No. You've got to be careful because if you want any of those halo cars, you know, this is going to be permanent. This is permanent. I know you might want an F80 at some point. You've got to be really careful. I just want you to be really careful. This is a political answer. sir. No comment. Okay. That shit's ass. No comment. No comment. No comment. That was a lot of fun.

3:40:46Well, thank you so much for coming on. Yeah. Congrats on the new fun. Have fun down in El Segundo. Hopefully give our best to everyone. The South Bay. I'm sure you guys are going to be spending a lot of time there post SpaceX IPO. It's just going to be more and more action. Let me close out by telling everyone about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. We were off for a couple days. We'll see you back at 11 a.m. next week. Is an IPO on the list? We got some ideas of things. We're cooking, dog. We're cooking. Flashbang out. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

3:41:24Sign up for our newsletter at tbpn.com. And thank you for tuning in today. Goodbye.

3:41:31Nice. Perfect.