The World Reacts to Sora 2, Slop vs. Farming Debate | Reece Chowdhry, Jim Gao, Fan-Yun Sun, Carl Pei, Shehzan Maredia, Victor Riparbelli, William Fedus, Jayanth Madheswaran

28:46And then others have said, hey, just pay me if you monetize my work, like what happens on TikTok, like what happens on YouTube. Others might say, don't put me in at all. Others might say, hey, I didn't get a chance, I didn't get the memo, just train on me, do whatever, just go wild, profit off of it entirely. You get 100%. And then I imagine that there's a second filter that's happening on top of all the prompts and all the content to say, is this acceptable based on content policies? Is this explicit? Is this adult content? Ban that if so. And then also, is this infringing on IP that we don't want to infringe on?

29:21Let's pull that down. And so I don't exactly know. Yeah, one thing that OpenAI broadly is world-class at is style transfer. This is why the Studio Ghibli moment happened. It was perfect very, very consistently, right? And we saw this again yesterday with people doing their own versions of South Park, right? South Park is one-shotted. It looks, you could convince me. Rick and Morty. If the dialogue wasn't too crazy, you could convince me that that was a real scene. especially on the video fidelity it looks fantastic uh there are others that we're going to react to today uh that clearly didn't get opted out of the of the training set and so they're in there and who knows how that develops but this is the story of all social media like youtube was was you know not really on top of copyright holders as they grew that business when they got acquired by Google, Google had a massive settlement and I believe paid almost a billion dollars, like maybe more than the actual acquisition price to settle those lawsuits and get in good with the - We need a prediction market on how big the ultimate settlement for the class action.

30:34Yeah. There might be a one-time settlement. There might just be a rev share agreement. I mean, that's what happens on YouTube today is that if you go and steal my content and you upload this and you start getting AdSense revenue, Google will just route that to me. If you steal some of this video, you take a TBPN clip, you put it up there, and if it starts getting views and starts generating ads, it'll be automatically claimed and come over. I will also have the opportunity to take it down, but by default, I'll just get the revenue share over here. And there's a whole niche business of shuffling around these payments.

31:09And you can imagine the same thing. I mean, the same thing happened with TikTok, where TikTok was abusing that 15 second preview in the Apple Music preview. Do you remember this, Jordy? I do. So yeah, like in Apple Music, in the iTunes app, you could preview 15 seconds of any song because they were like, well, you pay for that. That was genius. Pay a dollar for a full song. Credit to ByteDance for that one. It was a genius hack. I don't know if it was Credit to ByteDance. I think it was Musically, the company before. Okay, same thing. Eventually the same thing, yes. But that was something where it was very unclear how that would pencil out.

31:48And ultimately, the record labels got in a good spot with TikTok, I think. And they're happy with the promotion and rev shares that they get. And it doesn't feel like there's active lawsuits. So there's something going on here where either OpenAI is moving fast and breaking things and will pay a big settlement. or they already have contracts in place and will be sharing revenues over time with how much likeness goes. You can already see this with the cameos where if you upload your cameo and then someone uses your cameo to generate a ton of views, they go viral with it. There's a bunch of ads associated with that.

32:25It would be pretty easy to flow, okay, this video generated$10 ,000 of ad value. We're gonna, on YouTube, you get 5 ,000 of that, basically half, it's like 45 % or something, 55%. So you take half of that, put that into the creator payout, and then from the 50 % rev share, you could also slice it up even more. So imagine if you upload a YouTube video. Yeah, and this is something that we were talking about earlier off the air. How does open it, like right now, Sora is a great AI. video creation tool. That's undeniable. If they can build a network, they'll have to create durable incentives for people to build audiences, invest in making audiences on Sora and not just creating the content and taking it to other apps where they already have a big audience.

33:23The incentive now is to make it on Sora, share it elsewhere. That didn't matter on YouTube, right? Or on Instagram. Instagram was a photo filtering app that bootstrapped a social network on the back of it. Sure. I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. I'm just saying they have to create an economic incentive over time. Like, sure, it's great that you need supply before you can have demand, right? But I think that what TikTok did well, what YouTube did well, what all these platforms did is they ultimately became a place where creators could get attention, they could get money, right? Tora needs to drive user minutes in the app watching.

34:07Yes, I agree with that. I think it's maybe an act two. Yeah, an act two. What I was going to say is if IP holders, like if people can create John Coogan content and get a rev share or something and then you get a split, that can create an economic engine that will just drive more activity. Right now, if you look at faceless accounts on other platforms, they historically are very, very difficult to monetize. So if you have a meme account on Instagram, good luck making money on that. You can have a million followers and it's really tough to get much value out of it at all. Totally. And same thing for totally faceless, non-personality driven YouTube channels, right?

34:54Same thing with X accounts that just share breaking, right? and they're pretty much worthless. Yeah, I think Act One bootstrapped the network on the back of a creative tool. You go there to create a video that you might share elsewhere, but it's shared by default, so there's liquidity in the system, and there's content there for those who do want to scroll it. Yeah, the challenge right now is I go on the app. I hate it. I want to leave. maybe I go on later today to try to create a video and I stick around for a little bit maybe the content gets better and better over time but they got to make it so that it's not disgusting to look at and can't be understated the timeline absolutely yeah the timeline absolutely hates it they could not hate it more I think people this is a this is kind of the first time that I feel like people are really impressed with the quality of the outputs from a model, but hate it.

35:59With Studio Ghibli, it was like, okay, this is really impressive. You can one-shot this incredible style transfer. It's magical. You look at it, it sparked joy. Some people are getting that a little bit, but at the same time, it's rough, right? Andrew McCallop said he was quoting William Fettis, who's coming on later. Yesterday, William announced Periodic Labs. Their goal is to create an AI scientist. William's coming on the show later today. We're excited about that. But Andrew said, I'm embarrassed for the existing AI players. Imagine sitting on compute empires yet not operating a Bell Lab-style effort to discover new physics or materials.

36:40This is infinitely more valuable to humanity than another video slot machine. Slot machine. Slot machine. And of course, Sam Altman, already responded to some of the various frustrations that people had. Let me try to pull this up. Yeah, it said, so this came from Runner Tushar, said, Sam Altman two weeks ago, we need$7 trillion and 10 gigawatts to cure cancer. I remember I was saying. Sam actually said we have to cure cancer and educate the masses. No, he was basically saying there's a world in the future where we might have to choose between free education for everyone and curing cancer and basically implying like, you know, if give me a trillion dollars or you're going to have to, we're going to have to make this call.

37:29Don't make me make the call. Turns out there's a third demand. There's a third demand, right? So you might have to, you know, he might be in a position where he has to choose between the infinite slot machine and free education curing cancer. He's making the argument. He responded to this and said, I get the vibe here, but we do mostly need the capital for Build AI. There's a typo, but you know it's not AI generated. This is good. This is good. He put a typo in here intentionally to show that he wrote it himself. He said, we do mostly need the capital for Build AI that can do science. And for sure.

38:05For building AI that can do science. And for sure, we are focused on AGI with almost all of our research effort. Incredible that they were able to create a tool this impressive with so little of their research effort. It is also nice to show people cool new tech products along the way, make them smile, and hopefully make some money given all the compute need. When we launched ChatGPT, there was a lot of who needs this and where is AGI? Reality is nuanced when it comes to optimal trajectories for companies. Totally agree there. And, yeah, a lot of people were speculating, did Meta rush the Vibes app to try to be first to market?

38:44Yep. It'll be interesting to see how the Meta's down 1.8 % today. Hard to read too much into it. I don't, I don't, there's a number of other factors, including that people now believe Zuck will spend all of their free cash flow on CapEx. So some various factors here. But yeah, certainly impressive that Sora was able to go number one so quickly. Well, over in the co-generation world, Cognition has announced that they rewrote Devin for Claude 4.5. There's an interesting article we can break down in a minute. But you can check out Cognition. They're the makers of Devin. Devin is the AI software engineer.

39:31Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. um donald boat uh is uh is putting a lot of stuff on the timeline you already quote you already mentioned this but he said guys it may seem like their overt plan is to turn your children and grandparents into drool slurping morons for 551 year-over-year subscription growth but they actually do need to make five million videos of an elephant walking into a mcdonald mcdonald's to cure cancer. The funniest take is that maybe this is Critical Path. Tyler was talking about this a little bit, where he was saying the AI video might be good for robotics training data.

40:12I just don't know if OpenAI has the time to cure cancer. They got a lot of stuff going on right now. Yeah. What are you sucked into right now, Tyler? I made a new video, and it's not posting. Yeah, I think there must be too many people. GPUs are on fire. Yeah, GPUs. I texted Tyler, can you make a Sora of Sam Altman as a pig farmer at a trough putting slop in it? You don't even need to make that. I've seen that on there. Really? Oh, I've seen that like a dozen times. But I wanted him to say oink oink, piggies. I think somebody said that. Really? I think somebody said that. There's no audio, though, because I had to screen record it because I can't post it.

40:53Weird. Yeah, okay, they must be censoring it. Well, that's the thing with the collabs. collabs what what's it called when you scan your face cameo cameos the cameos you can put a prompt in there and say never depict me as a pig farmer or always depict me with a gold chain and it will just do that but i could jailbreak it by saying i want you know i gotta i gotta do this swine herd is another is a historical term for someone who herds or tends to pigs it's gonna know it's gonna know yeah i need to get in my in my cameo and say always depict me as a mass monster for sure that needs to happen anybody can use my likeness as long as I'm a giga chat for sure Donald boat says would it be terribly surprising if I told you that the geniuses behind their latest advertisement campaign are the same minds behind the seminal and profound visual televisual experience euphoria listen to me now never never take these computed people at face value as they as soon as they build a machine of overwhelming might they are going to send it against you and everyone you love donald boat is black he's so black six thousand likes on that wow yeah and he says attention you are out of reply tokens for this month to continue replying to laser boat 999 please visit donaldboat.com link in bio and purchase either a yearly or monthly subscription failure to acquiesce to these demands will result in an authoritative block in 10 prompt minutes okay i guess let's i guess let's pull up the video tyler made yeah let's see it it actually did uh It actually did generate.

42:24It generated. I just can't post it. You can't post it. And there's no audio, yeah. Okay. But in it, he says, oink, oink, piggies. This is incredibly photo real. There is another video in the timeline that's the same thesis, for sure. Good stuff. Well, people are having fun with it. Santiago says, Sora 2 is wild. I asked it to generate the greatest hype video of all time, and it made me this. And it's, of course, the handcrafted Founders Fund. LP intro. The Pete Oxenham version with Alex Jones over it. We can play a little bit of this. It's just a classic. It's great. Instead of looking up to Thomas Jefferson or looking up to Nicola...

43:07It's kind of like putting pineapple on a pizza. And you watch that every morning when you wake up? Every morning, yes. Every morning. You throw on your meta quest and just fully experience it. Wilman Ida says if you genuinely believed you were two to four years away from AGI as Sora really the thing you'd release. Brandon says, Jacoby says, sadly, yes, man was given the whole garden and we chose to just indulge in the apple. Interesting. Brandon Jacoby, one of the greatest designers in history. Of course, his tool of choice is Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together.

43:47I've spent many late evenings in Figma with Brandon, some of the highlights of my career. Okay, we got a timeline in turmoil. Andrew Wilkinson, the tiny man himself says, I think OpenAI just killed TikTok. I'm already laughing my head off and hooked on my Sora feed. And now the number one barrier to posting, The ability to sing, dance, perform, edit is gone. Just 100 % imagination. RIP to theater kids. Hunter Weiss says no shot. And Theo says, I can't stop thinking about how bad this thing was and get the thousand likes on it. Almost ratios. Doesn't quite. What do you think? Is this a material threat to TikTok?

44:34Is TikTok now overvalued at$14 billion? A minute ago you were saying, oh,$14 billion is too low for TikTok. Maybe TikTok's a$200 million company now. Maybe. Maybe they just killed it. Well, I think, I mean, we got to talk about TikTok again because something I wasn't even thinking about, I feel silly now, is that they're probably just going to take TikTok public and it will immediately trade up. TikTok is not going to trade. If TikTok U.S. is public today, it does not trade anywhere near$14 billion. Where do you think it trades? I think, I mean, so they do around 15, they're at roughly a$15 billion run rate.

45:18For revenue. If you assume they're going to be around for a long time and can get quite profitable if they stop doing this TikTok shop mumbo jumbo, that feels like it could trade at 10x revenue. Yep. And so it's possible. That's where it was trading in the private markets beforehand, although that was not just the US business broken out. But most people were expecting this deal to land at like 50, 60. ByteDance always was valued far less than the metas of the world. So the new entity is, I think, sharing 50 % profits with the Chinese entity. There's some flow back of cash flow. So you can't - Well, the public markets don't care about cash flow, John.

46:03But you know what is interesting? So Sam Altman is building Sora. He needs an endless trove of training data. Larry Ellison just bought TikTok. Larry Ellison runs Oracle, which has a massive deal. We need some red string. Get the red string ready, Tyler. But Oracle has a deal with OpenAI for massive data centers. How are you going to justify burning all those GPUs? You need valuable services on top of them. There's a world where there's a TikTok OpenAI data deal, a la the Reddit deal that happened that kind of empowered ChatGPT, right? What do you think, Tyler? I think it's also not that insane to just imagine that in one to two years when the tech kind of trickles down, you just see TikTok release their own version that's just trained on their own feed.

46:49Yeah, maybe. That's fairly possible. I mean, at$14 billion also, it's an acquisition target for OpenAI. If they're at$500 or something right now and they're buying Love From in the billions, Why not pick up TikTok and then have a huge audience to bootstrap a new network with? Tons of training. Well, why not buy Snap, too? There is an argument for that. Snap, TikTok. Just aggregate them all. Probably, I mean, they're private, so it's got to be easier to get deals across the line. But you know that there's going to be some lawsuits and there's going to be some people fighting that in the antitrust world.

47:23but it's hard to justify if your two biggest Foundation Lab competitors are MSL and Google DeepMind, and they have YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels. It's not that crazy to say, hey, I'm Sam Ullman. I run another lab, and I want a play in vertical video. Give me this. I don't know. I don't think OpenAI just killed TikTok. I think I disagree with this Andrew Wilkinson take. Yeah. I mean, he obviously structured this post to rage bait, so we shouldn't read too much into it. In general, I mean, I think... And just another reason why it's overly dramatic is that, you know, social networks, while scale is critical, are not, you know, TikTok didn't kill Snapchat.

48:17Yes, yes, yes. Instagram stories didn't kill Snapchat, right? These are still used and loved. The one hard post they did comment on this. There was some reporting that ChatGPT is referencing Reddit less. Yes. Probably because Reddit is just becoming entirely ChatGPT-generated. Maybe. They are down 11 % today on that study. Well, you've got to get on profound. Get your brand mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover products and brands. profound. Yeah, my definitive take on the Sora thing was people vastly overestimate the amount of brain rot that will happen in a year and underestimate the amount of brain rot that will happen in a decade.

49:04I think that it's good to have these conversations about the slop farm and avoiding brain rot and searching out Lindy formats for content and not wasting all your time consuming sugar and candy, essentially. But I do think some people are debating me in the chat. But I do think that I would be very surprised if the Sora app has a... No, I think they're talking about Andrew Wilkinson. Oh, Andrew Wilkinson. Okay. Well, you're free to disagree with me too. I don't care. Healthy debate. But the idea that the Sora app, I think this was your point, was that the Sora app will not be like a major, major consumption vehicle for content in the very near term, right?

49:51That it could grow. And again, we've seen it now. Remember, ChatGPT has an insane amount of users. They can continue to push users to Sora now. They're not having to acquire them all organically through people sharing content, et cetera. And we saw this with Threads, where Threads had an initial pop, fell off dramatically, and now has climbed and reportedly has more weekly actives than X now. And the only flywheel there is that they surface some threads on Instagram. You have to click in. And then you just click one button just to go back and forth. You can only see the first, like, ten words.

50:31Yep. You're like, ah, I want to know what this person says. And it just brings you over, and they just do a little bit of that every day with a billion-plus users. And when you have a massive, massive user base, you can just grow it, grow it, grow it very slowly. Yeah. Akshay over at Notion says, why do we keep dedicating our brightest minds billions of dollars and the most powerful gpus on earth to build yet another app that optimizes for attention decay i was hoping chat gpt seemed to reclaim time from tiktok and i don't have um he says uh reclaimed time from tiktok and instagram it felt useful even nourishing but now we see disposable video same engagement treadmill and path to ads if even our non-profits can't resist this gravity what does that say about Of course, Soar was released by the for-profit arm of the nonprofit.

51:18Yeah. Signal has some pushback on that. He says, unfortunately, ads fund research. Google ads funded DeepMind. I would say fortunately. Fortunately, yeah. Meta ads, billions poured into AR, VR. OpenAI needs massive cash flow to bankroll AGI. The treadmill sucks, but it's also the only mechanism society has ever found to subsidize frontier science at scale. I say this as someone who despises ads. Eric Sufert, fantastic analyst, mobile dev memo, you should go subscribe, says, digital advertising is the most positive sum economically expansionary technology summoned by humanity. No other technology has created more consumer surplus or stimulated more long tail economic activity.

52:02Digital advertising provides consumers with free access to products that would otherwise be out of reach to all but the richest segment of society. The existence of the internet itself is dependent on digital advertising. And absent that commercial engine, it would cease to exist as a freely accessible commodity and would instead be a luxury good reserve for moguls and despots. I say this as someone who loves ads. Let's go. Thank you, Eric Sufert, for saying the hard part that no one else had the bravery to say. You're on our side. And we should have Eric on the show. He is a fantastic interviewer, fantastic analyst.

52:37have not spent enough time reaching out to him to get him on the show. Anyway, speaking of ads, Vanta, automated compliance, manage risk, prove trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process. If you think it might be SOC 2 time, it probably is. Just do it. Anyway, continue. Peter Gostiv says, what are the chances that Meta found out about OpenAI's AI video social app plans, got a partnership with MidJourney Black Forest Labs, and rushed out a similar app just before OpenAI did? Nathan says, that's what happened. Yeah, the Vibes app always felt rushed.

53:13It felt, it felt to death. I mean, if you go to midjourney.com right now, I think that's their domain. If you just go to the Mid Journey website and you don't log in and you scroll, like it is just MetaVibes. Like it is the same thing. It's like Mid Journey images with Black Forest Labs video animation on top of it, like eight second clips, just extending one frame. And it's the exact same thing without music on top. And so I would love to be able to see inside what the Vibes project team was because it does feel like it was just a couple developers really, really fast, like just a few features in there.

53:52Tyler, you have any other context on Vibes? I mean, even like the UI, if you're just looking at the UI of Vibes compared to Sora, Sora is like, it's so much better. It's so much better. Just like the buttons just look nicer. Totally. Like it feels bad to use Vibes. Yep. Sora has, they actually have a few unique UI features. I mean, the cameo thing is something that we hadn't seen elsewhere. Makes a lot of sense. We knew that like fine tuning on a particular person was possible. And we've seen that with that, with those magic avatars. But have you noticed that if you double tap on a Sora video, it will automatically, it'll show like a little like explosion of like confetti, but then it picks an emoji that it thinks relates to the underlying content and shows that emoji.

54:39So if you're on a video about dogs and you double tap, it will show you a dog emoji or footprints emoji. And they do a really good job of kind of like mapping the videos to emojis. And that's just like a unique UI experience that I've never seen. Similar to when the ChatGPT app came out and there was, you remember when it was typing, it would like kind of thump in your hand. Do you remember that in the app? We kind of stopped. It would like vibrate a little bit? It would vibrate a little bit as the tokens were streaming in. And it was just like, okay, someone over there at OpenAI on the iOS team is doing novel things.

55:13And that's exciting to me. Yeah, but I think the emojis are actually good because like sometimes, I mean, the videos are like nine seconds long. I'm not going to sit through nine full seconds. I want to see what the video is about right when I go to it. So I immediately get the emoji and I can see what the video is about and then I can scroll faster. Yeah, yeah. I'm consuming more. I think that's the big criticism. The videos are just too long on Sora. Someone should make a Sora competitor that's just like half a second every video. Well, like genuinely, I think people would like use it more if the videos, if they just basically sped up every video like 1.5x.

55:46Really? I think people would. You want to watch the Sora app on 2x. That's so deranged. I hope we don't lose you, Tyler. It feels like one of these days we're going to give you an intern challenge that just takes you off the deep end. To his credit, he's got to be ready for questions for three hours a day. Randomly. Randomly. So he doesn't have the same time to slop it up as others. Let's pull up this post from Joe Weisenthal in the timeline. He's sharing the video of, did we play this already, of Sam Altman stealing GPUs in a CVS, or it looks kind of like a Target. This is from Gabriel, who works at OpenAI.

56:24He was having fun with Sam's video. I think the research lead on Sora. Yeah, he says, I have the most liked video on Sora 2 now. Oh, he was. Wow. I will be enjoying this short moment while it lasts CCTV footage of Sam Altman stealing GPUs at a target for Sora inference. Let's play the video. We don't have it? Okay. Well, we do have an ad for graphite.dev. Code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. We will go back to the timeline. So Joe says, anyone who sees this video can instantly grasp the at least potential for malicious use. And yet nobody with any power, either in the public or at the corporate level, has anything to say, let alone do to address it or even acknowledge it.

57:08This isn't even a criticism per se. The cat may be completely out of the bag. and it may be reality that there's literally nothing that can be done, particularly if open source models are only marginally behind. The thing that I don't think people are ready for is for a fully jailbroken, a website that you can go prompt to Sora quality, Sora 2 quality with anything, no rules. Yes. Like John, but he lost 60 pounds and he's frail and he can't even bench a plate. Heartbreaking. If somebody sent you failing to even rep out a single rep, you would be devastated. I would be devastated. And you've got to be ready for that.

57:51Yeah. Tyler, what do you think? I feel like I kind of disagree. When you see the headline from The Onion, you know it's a joke. It's not real because you trust the source it's coming from. So it's like a video. Right now, you can just trust a video if it looks real. but soon it'll just be like oh it's from a person I don't know it's like non-reputable and then you just don't trust it I don't think it's that big of a deal but there's so many instances when you don't have a choice like let's say you get a DM from someone randomly and it's a video it looks like a normal account and then it's a picture of your dog being run over by a car how's that going to feel?

58:31and let's say that only happens once every three years that's still pretty that's still pretty rough that's pretty bad but I'm saying like in the sense of like persecuting someone for like if someone was stealing from Target like you're not going to use the video if you don't know that the video is from the Target store you know what I'm saying sure yeah and I don't think I just think he's talking about the broad implications of not being able to trust like you we already can't trust text right yeah we've never been able to trust text because anyone with a typewriter could go and type up Jordy Hayes accused of murder.

59:06The chat just noticed Tyler's Marlboro's reds on the desk. You got to actually stop right there. Yeah. Yeah. The cigarettes are AI generated. Yeah. But we already can't trust text. Right. Because anyone can go and get a typewriter and type up Johnny Jordy Hayes accused of stealing at Target. Right. And publish it on the Internet or print it out and post it on a on a billboard right or or they can stick it to a to a telephone pole people people have have have still built up like these trust networks and institutions maybe this i'm just saying like video could be traumatizing for people yeah i'm not i'm not really a a trauma bro yeah but imagine seeing some terrible event and it looks photorealistic and now that's in your brain.

1:00:02Yeah, I agree with that. There is going to need to be more control for the networks and more control on, I mean, there are, like, if you go to Netflix, you can set parental advisories and say, I don't want to see any R-rated content. Netflix, by default, doesn't show any adult content. But you can go in further and say, I only want to see things that are G-rated and PG-rated, right? And I would imagine that most of the platforms allow you to do that. They do a lot of it by themselves. So I think a lot of the platforms will handle that. Also, I don't know, people have just built up trust in all sorts of accounts, institutions, identities in the idea that if I'm following this person or this organization or this website for years and they've built up years and years of trust that they will call it out when they're using an AI image or something like that.

1:00:54I think that holds for longer than we think. Yeah, and remember, I watched my first movie, Mountain Gate, or my second after Borat, and I thought the plot was pretty weak. It was entirely around this idea that the world is actually collapsing and extremely chaotic. So I'm less worried about the, I just think content is going to be made that should never be made, and it's going to be dark. Yeah. It's just going to be dark. I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying like. And most importantly, there's going to be more of that dark content. Because you can open up. Because it's just so much easier. You could have made a.

1:01:35You can open up After Effects right now. You can open up Photoshop and draw a man stabbing someone else. But, you know, it's going to look like a maiden MS paint. Yeah, and you could have spent a million dollars to make a photorealistic CGI of an event. Yes. But nobody would ever do that. Yes. And now it'll cost nothing to do at scale. Anybody will be able to do it at all times. Yep. and it's just, and yeah, it's going to take a while until it's actually free. Like the, like every Sora generation is very expensive to actually marshal all of the GPUs. Like even, even if you're like, okay, I'm just like a Neo cloud and I need customers.

1:02:12I'm going to let someone do some inference. Like there's going to be pushback on, Oh, you, you're the one that's hosting this sketchy site that lets you generate celebrities killing each other or something like, Like there's going to be pushback across the whole stack, the whole supply chain. And I do think it will take another couple of years for Sora 3 to pass the uncanny valley. It took CGI a long time. It'll probably take a few years. Then it'll take another year, a couple of years for like per generation cost to fall. And then it'll take another couple of years. A couple other examples gave in the chat says the Ukraine war was all over the X feed, right?

1:02:49Yes. I personally don't follow any of those accounts. Videos would pop up. I'd say I'm not interested. I just don't want to be reading about technology through my friends and then suddenly see somebody get blown up by a drone. Yet I saw it a bunch. Charlie Kirk assassination, same thing. We were live at NYSE. I opened my laptop, and I immediately saw the video. A lot of people saw the video that wouldn't have, you know, if you gave them a choice, do you want to see an assassination or not? They would have said no. But those people still saw it because of the way that content gets services. Yeah.

1:03:30Quick update on the TikTok sale. Polymarket has the announcement. The market only resolves to yes if ByteDance announces their intention to sell TikTok. It has to come from ByteDance. It's at 48 % by December 31st, by the end of the year. It jumped to 84 % and now is falling. So maybe there will be some retrading. Maybe the sale will be delayed. But we will keep tabs on the TikTok situation. There are some more videos. Do we want to react to more Sora videos? There's one of Minecraft plus GTA V with Sora 2. Sort of cool to be able to mix prompts. This is a great example of what you were talking about.

1:04:141 ,000 likes, 60 ,000 views on X. Who knows what it did in the... Also, underrated that Sora 2 can generate horizontal and vertical video. VO3 is only horizontal. Vibes is only vertical. And so being able to do both, I think it's more of a creative tool than we think. But let's watch this Minecraft GTA 5 video.

1:04:41one way tomorrow santos let's mind some distance before they respond man the city ain't ready for man that is rough that is rough we're never gonna get that time back i'm sorry to everyone i'm sorry i i thought we were gonna be i thought it was like yeah we'll do like a little reaction stream we'll watch watch a bunch of videos and uh kind of give our reactions and my reaction to every single video is like oh not quite there and this is different than the Dali or the Studio Ghibli's. I feel like that crossed the chasm. It crossed the Uncanny Valley, and this hasn't in some way. I would love to understand open chat GPT's most active user type because it feels like new technology, new product.

1:05:30It's probably heavily in that teenager to 40-year-old range. And maybe Sora's their way of going after the Facebook user. You know, the 50-plus, you know, maybe retired. Well, if you want to generate some video for something that's not slop, you have a business use case, head over to Fall, the generative media platform for developers, the world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place. There are a bunch of other interesting ways that you can use these tools. You can develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and on-demand clusters. Let's play this video from Vittorio of Mario.

1:06:11boarding a SpaceX rocket and Bone GPT says a Japanese lawyer just made generational wealth off of this clip and I'm one and the question I want you to answer Jordy is does this make you want to spend more money with Mario or less is this a substitute for Mario content or is this an ad for the real deal let's play the video

1:06:42Here we go, to the stars!

1:06:48Oh, it's photo real, it looks like Mario. It doesn't look like a SpaceX rocket. When you see examples of videos like that, I do believe that somebody could string enough of those together to keep a five-year-old heavily engaged. Oh, 100%, there's no question. So bearish, bullish, I don't know. What does that mean? Yeah. Well, Mario bought his Tesla before Elon went crazy. I mean, if you're running a kid's YouTube channel right now, you have got to be so excited, right? Because you can just generate so much more content that you're putting ads for actual toys in, and then you can have an affiliate link to go and buy the Mario stuffed animal or something, and you're getting a cut of that.

1:07:37This feels like a huge, huge unlock for that crowd. I don't know. What do you think? If you're running like a Cocomelon type channel. I just think it will be completely competed away really quickly. And the real IP, the Miss Rachel's, what's the other one? What's his name? The Kid. Lippy. Toys. I don't know. I don't know this stuff. Yeah. I stick to the Lindy Pixar stuff, the craft. David Holes hit the timeline. We did. What did he say? We need Lockheed Martin to build us a truth-seeking missile. He's like the most in the conversation right now, and he's just posting about Lockheed. Anyway. And Matt Mullenweg replies, to attack the truth?

1:08:25I guess. That's not what we need. Who knows? Sterling Crispin says, infinite high-quality media generated on a per-user basis will erode our shared world model and narratives. This is what we were talking about earlier with trust in institutions and crazy stuff happening on the internet. Expansive yet hyper-niche culture bubbles forming around handfuls of people. The next generation may only have a few ideas they agree exist, a few nations and corporate entities. Everything else will be content produced just for them, unseen by anyone else. This will be accelerated by high-quality AI bots that act as their friends and long-distance lovers.

1:08:59These bots will form lifelong relationships with individuals, getting to know them in deeper ways than any other person could. They'll create online social communities around an audience of just a few or one person, reducing people's need to share their experiences elsewhere. The music shows, movies, memes, and in-jokes shared in these bot-based social communities will be generated on demand and entirely unseen by other people and vice versa, each person literally in their own world. And these content bot streams will be hyper-focused to each individual's impulses and desires, giving them exactly what they want to see next, the ultimate firehose of dopamine.

1:09:33It will be both extremely isolating and pleasurable in unimaginable ways. It's going to be the ultimate internal war between brains. You know he posted this in 2023. Wait, what? Wow. So Sterling quoted this question in 2023 and said, reposting this now that Meta and OpenAI have shipped the product this tweet is about. The end game is just in time per user generated content, leaving everyone hyper addicted and isolated with little to no shared cultural references between us. He's not a fan. This difference in ability to influence and control these systems. You should have an affiliate link for black pills.

1:10:08Between those shaped by these systems and those shaping them, training and fine tuning the models is one thing. But using them versus being used by them is another, are you the pig or are you the farmer? I suspect this skill will become the primary focus of higher education, somewhere between prompt engineering, pattern recognition, and being a kind of neural network whisperer who's able to shape their reality through sheer willpower. Interesting. What do you think, Tyler? I think, like, maybe a steel man of, like, going against this is, like, you still see with, like, even though there's, like, you know, insane brain rot.

1:10:42like there's so many videos that there's like infinite videos you can watch there's still like even within brain rot there's like distinct characters or something that people still like to come back to because a lot of like the reason people like these things i think is because you can share them with your friends yeah and like if it's if everything is completely customized to you you can never share it because it will be like completely unintelligible yep so there's some maybe there's still some kind of like shared you know cultural yeah thing going on despite it being completely like custom to each person there's still some something you can kind of share around the haze paradox i think yeah haze paradox i think about maslow's hierarchy of needs this idea that like i i have i have content and i basically have a social network that's just for my family which is like the i message group chat and the photo feed that goes in there it's like you can share family photos with other people and extended family but it's not i'm not really like my kid photos don't really hit with other people.

1:11:42I'm not really in that world. But then I have, we have, Jordi, we have in jokes with our group chat of guy friends, basically, that's a very tight circle. And then we have, we have, you know, larger group chats that are maybe a couple hundred people. There's Dunbar's number, 150 people. Then there's the TBPN community and everyone on X. And then there's when we get something that really hits, it goes viral. And so there's like these, there's these layers of abstraction that you can operate on that, I don't know, they keep some sort of semblance of relevance. And I don't know if there's anything that only I find interesting.

1:12:20Maybe that is the true Hayes paradox. Maybe we're going into a world of more Hayes paradox content. Yeah, the concept, obviously we're joking around a little bit here, but I propose the Hays paradox, which is the more funny you find something as an individual, the less likely that the masses will find it funny. So it's inversely correlated, which is when you maybe have a funny idea for the post that for a post that's cracking you up and no one else. Because it's too niche. It requires too many niche references. Yep. We saw this with, we were joking about like Ben Thompson being on vacation a particular day.

1:13:00and there was some joke about that. And like, unless you're, you know, unless you understand our context and then also the Ben Thompson context, there was like a hundred people that would get that joke, whatever we posted. And so it just didn't do well. But I did notice that a few people who liked it were like my friends, my real friends, people in real life. Like, and it would hit my audience. Well, I like finding a video or a meme that I know I'm not going to send to anybody but you. Yes, yes, yes. Or just a six person group chat or just the family group chat or just the small niche community on X or the bigger, broader community, and stuff goes viral all over the Internet.

1:13:37Brian Lovins says, Sora 2 looks impressive. What's even more impressive is how little I care to watch anything made using it. The Notion team is just firing shots. They're going hard today. Well, is Notion? They are Notions on Turbo Puffer. Search every byte, serverless vector, and full-text search. built from first principles and object storage, fast, 10x, cheaper, and extremely scalable. I knew I had to lay up there because it's such a logical partnership between those two companies. Alex Albert, who we had on the show yesterday, says over these next few years, it's going to become more and more important that you resist letting slop consume you.

1:14:11Keep creating, keep learning, keep thinking. There is a wild, wild divide between the slop farm video apps and then the coding agents. Like, no one's really leveling slop complaints about coding agents. And it's something about, like, I don't know, you don't just consume it? Or I don't know. I think there are some people who are, like, vibe coding apps just produce, like, slop code. But there is definitely still a difference. Yeah, I guess there's still so much of a human in the loop. And most of the code that will be written with Claude 4.5 is doing stuff that, I don't know, it's just like it's automating manual processes.

1:14:59It's not something that you're looking for crafted necessarily. Tom Osmond in the chat says hog engineering. Just post-engineering, post-hog engineering. No, hog engineering. It's the slop vibe coding app. Yeah, I don't know. There's a bunch of great memes in here. Parham has a photo of an image loading in images in ChatGPT. We need more compute to cure cancer, right? It's like a Bart Simpson or Lisa Simpson image loading. Casey Neistat had a good summary of Sora. It's TikTok, but all AI, but with real people. Yeah, very interesting. Can we play the Casey Neistat video of him reviewing a giant nicotine pouch?

1:15:45Size of a slider. I'm going to try it. Oh, my gosh. It's like a pillow in my lip. It's crazy it allowed. This is allowed content because did he make this? Did someone else make this with him? Did he upload his avatar or his cameo and allow that? And then in general. With Zin too? Yeah. I mean, yeah. You think PMI is on top of this? How is our IP being used in? I don't think PMI would mind that at all. No, not at all. And so there's this weird. Free ad for Zen. Totally. And they can't advertise on typical social media platforms. So yeah, very, very odd times. Odd trade-off if you're a CEO of some legacy company with some IP with a brand and you want to know, well, what has Coca-Cola thought about Instagram over the past three years?

1:16:35It's been like, how do we get Coca-Cola in every Instagram influencers' mailbox? Like, we need to be on that platform. What's our strategy? We need to buy ads. We need our own hashtag. We need to get a private plane, put all the Coca-Cola influencers on a plane and have them post about it, right? Like, we talked with Emily Sundberg about this. Like, the name of the game has been, like, get your brand on Instagram. And now there's going to be a question for a lot of brands. Like, how do they get their brand mentioned in Sora? That'll be an interesting thing. Maybe James from Profound will chime in on recommendations for strategy for brands, for creators, for folks that aren't just deciding whether or not to consume.

1:17:13Tyler? Maybe an interesting idea is like once these models kind of get out, like at least to some extent in like open source stuff where you can make your own model. I think it would be cool if some like big company basically does free inference, but they fine tune it so that every video has like their product in it. So Coca-Cola releases some platform where it's free inference. You can do any video you want, but every single video has the bottle in it. I think that could be an interesting idea. Yeah, I'd like that. That would be potentially abused to degrees never before. You know what people are going to go and do.

1:17:47They're going to try and degrade the brand that's providing that free inference immediately. 4chan would go. It's like when 4chan tried to send Justin Bieber to North Korea. It's the best. The internet is creative beyond all imagination, which is maybe the bull case here. I don't know. Seek says, not even excited about the new cloud or open AI stuff today. Kind of lost its hype. Wow, benchmarks are 2 % better. Wow, Shopify can now be used to show products. Who cares, man? Where is the cool stuff? We hit AGI months ago, and nothing functionally has changed since. Wow. We hit AGI months ago. And that's what I was saying.

1:18:25You show a major advancement in the technology, innovative stuff at the product level, and people are sad about it. Yeah. Very odd. Well, people aren't sad about linear because linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps, and start building. The anti-slop. Geiger Capital says, I've seen enough reacting to SOAR2. I am raising my probability that the entire AI bubble is going to produce nothing but Facebook slop and TV commercials to 20%. That's crazy because of coding and knowledge retrieval.

1:19:08I don't know that produce nothing but is kind of crazy because people are going to be doing deep research. Anthropic comes out of the last week and a half looking great. Yeah, the race is on. uh they apparently anthropic had an image model and they decided not to ship it because of like you know concerns it was also weird uh someone in the chat yesterday was asking about like oh why did we press anthropic on uh the the hunger strike person i still need to dig into that story because i don't understand how they picked why they it's like of all of all the labs that anthropic seems like definitely like the most say you haven't studied the lab am i crazy like i gotta interview this person because I got to know like how'd you pick that one when we have Annie over here and Sora over there and Vibes over there and VO3 like the the the the moving fast you know memes are not the strongest at Anthropic they're like very carefully like how do we write better code how do we write better code uh I don't know what do you think you think it's reasonable to go protest outside of Anthropic uh no it kind of doesn't make any sense but maybe maybe the the reasoning is like maybe they think Anthropoc is the most AGI-pilled company at which point then you should be protesting them right?

1:20:23If like other companies are going into consumer and doing AI video like it's like oh Do you mean most AGI-pilled or most AGI likely? Like if there's a AGI breakthrough it will come from Anthropoc because I think both yeah yeah yeah yeah it is very strange considering like how it does seem like they're the least reckless of all the labs? Yeah definitely I mean I don't know they're that book settlement so you know, RIP to the authors, but they got paid. So good news for the, for the authors, uh, sign in with chat. This is an interesting underrated feature that, uh, opening I kind of shipped. So when you, when you, when you, when you download the Sora app, you're prompted to log in with chat GPT, you get portable identity for all of AI.

1:21:04It doesn't feel like they bootstrapped the Sora feed. There isn't enough content right now, but in theory, there is a world where if If we were a couple months down the road, there was a lot of content in there. The Pulse feature from ChatGPT, I think, is fantastic. I haven't been a DAU yet, but when I went on Pulse, it was pulling really interesting articles about CapEx and AI labs and even some production equipment that we're using here. I liked it. I felt like it was properly fine-tuned on me. I didn't feel like my Sora feed was that. It was all the same Altman stuff. but you could imagine a future where you've been using chat gpt for a while you just find out about sora in december you're at thanksgiving or something in november and your cousin says oh are you using chat gpt and then yeah i use that every once in a while at work and they're like well you should check out this new app and then when you go and sign in with chat gpt the first sora feed is quickly looking at your chat gpt history understanding that you have a dog, understanding that you have a particular type of dog, understanding that you have kids, understanding that you like to travel to France.

1:22:11And so it puts all that together and routes you to a particular corner of the Sora feed and gives you more customized content. And you can imagine Sora going pretty hard over Thanksgiving just because it is optimized for entertainment. Yeah. Tyler, I'll let you respond, and then I have another thing. Yeah. I was just going to say, I think it's even more natural, instead of just putting you in some corner of the algorithm that it just actually just writes the prompts for the videos? Totally, yeah. You can already see that that's what it's doing in Pulse. It's clearly looking at what I'm searching and then writing new prompts for John's search for AI CapEx, write a new prompt for what he might be interested in, go find new sources, piece all that together, generate an article, even generate an AI image as a header for that article.

1:22:59And you could just generate a video that summarizes that or entertains based on that. It is a further step because it's basically just firing off an, uh, like an O3 pro or like a GPT five pro query for me. Um, and those are great. And whereas these are clearly still in the uncanny valley, not really delivering value, but you can imagine that I open up my feed. And if I look on my YouTube, like my YouTube shorts feed is like Dylan Patel clips and like, it is like meat and potatoes. Like I like the content that gets serviced to me. Um, and you can imagine that source generating that stuff. And that would make the positive reception, like the more customization, the more personalization there is, people will love that once that happens.

1:23:40And it moves out of this just like, it's all demo clips of like Sam Altman. Like people don't, the people will get sick of that. They'll want something special. Anyway, numeralhq.com sales tax and autopilots. Finally. Five minutes per month on sales tax compliance. If you're selling something online, you gotta get in. Let numeral worry about it. Meanwhile, in the real economy, things are bleak. Oh, yeah? Things are bleak. ADP revised down September payrolls. It's now negative 32 ,000. Worse since March of 2023. And certainly a barbell out there right now. Where are we? Oh, I just pulled that up randomly.

1:24:25Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, you're not lost. Really far. But I just think it cannot be overstated how detached the AI hype cycle is from the real economy. It's true.

1:24:42We will see where it goes. I don't know. Where should we move to next in the real economy? There are a lot of different things in the real economy. Let's just get out of Sora 2 land. Okay, sure. our partner Adio was running some ads in London Nicholas Sharp posted some photos and they're beautiful photos of these billboards, we love billboards we love Adio, custom relationship magic Adio is the AI native CRM that build, scales, and grows your company to the next level this is interesting, San Francisco got inspired and built the Elevated Salesforce Park a true downtown jewel this was apparently is that real?

1:25:22inspired by the line Wait, no, what's that one called in Manhattan? Oh, I forget what it's called. See, my immediate reaction is, is this real? Because it looks incredibly beautiful. It is real. It is real. This is Salesforce Park. This is Benioff going off. Credit where credit is due. Yeah. Benioff cooked. He did. This is amazing. This is not what, this looks like, you know, this is what the future would look, you know, that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, have you been to the High Line in New York? Yes. The High Line's interesting. It's over a mile long, elevated park. Former rail train went on it, and they decided to.

1:26:08It was a former New York Central Railroad on the west side. Brought in some people, built it, and now it's just a place where people walk around. A lot of fun. Some sort of nonprofit. In 1999, Friends of the High Line advocated for preservation and reuse of a public space or an elevated park or greenway. Celebrity New Yorkers joined in on fundraising and support for the concept. Repurposing the railway into an urban park began in 2006 and opened in phases from 2009 to 2011 to 2014. The spur, an extension of the High Line that originally connected with the Morgan General Mail Facility at 10th Avenue and 30th Street, opened in 2019.

1:26:52The Moynihan connector, extending east from the spur, opened in 2023. So they're still building stuff out there. Finally, a white pill on today's show. We can still build beautiful things. We can. We can. It looks like the world if me. Yes. In other news, Brett Adcock is assembling a capital formation team. What does this mean? My companies have raised$4 billion in the last five years, and now it's time to reaccelerate. Brett Adcock is the founder of Archer Aviation, correct, and Big Ear Robotics? Yes. And this team will raise tens of billions to bring SyFy into the present, reporting directly to him.

1:27:33DMs open, no remote candidates. It's in San Jose, California. You want to go allocate some capital, head over to his days. Raise capital. I don't know if you're going to be allocating. Lomez. Should we go back to Sora? No, we've got to get out of Sora. You're done with it. I'm sick of it. You're done with it. Let's get into, so Dylan Patel went on. Fantastic episode. Best like the best. Highly recommend it. Really breaks down. OpenAI, Anthropic, AMD, XAI, Oracle, Meta, and Google. On OpenAI, Dylan said, super awesome. on Anthropic. He said, I'm actually more optimistic on Anthropic than I am OpenAI.

1:28:09The revenue is accelerating way faster because of what they're focused on is more relevant to that $2 trillion software market versus OpenAI's split between software, AI for science, AI for consumer. They're also doing hardware, et cetera, et cetera. Anthropic is definitely executing on the software side better. AMD, I love them, but they're pretty mid.

1:28:31XAI, they're in real danger of not being able to raise capital. Again, XAI had to come out and say, we have plenty of demand. If you have to say that to a journalist that's digging, probably something to the story. Of course, everyone's going to give Elon capital, but the scale of capital required for him to keep up, he can get the next bet. XAI can get to the next stage of compute. They won't have more compute than OpenAI. They don't have more compute than any individual company, Google Meta, et cetera. But they will have the biggest individual data center. They'll have a very focused team. And what they do with that, they have to do something really big.

1:29:12Otherwise, they will fall behind in the race. And Elon will not let that happen. He can subsidize and fund this round. But as rich as he is, he can't go to a three gigawatt data center unless he gets capital, which he can't do unless he gets revenue and fundraising. Again, you know, XAI has government contracts. They have romantic companions. They have romantic companions. They have knowledge retrieval on X. Like, Grok is this real? That whole thing. I do wonder, it's funny to reflect on the mood around the romantic companion launch, Ani and Valentine. People were definitely like, this is bad, but it'll be popular.

1:29:53Which is the same that we heard about Vibes. vibes and it's the same that we're hearing about Sora, right? And I wonder, like, is it popular? Like, we were kind of debating and one of the ideas that was kicking around was like, okay, maybe this is weird. Maybe it's Black Mirror. Maybe it's dystopian. Maybe it should be avoided as a recommendation if you want to live a good life. But it's possible that this generates a billion dollars in free cash flow because people love talking to their AI girlfriends and then and they wind up buying their AI girlfriend's virtual items that are 100 % margin, like the CSGO skin that I purchased for myself, which I still enjoy.

1:30:30And you can imagine a situation where you fall in love with your AI companion, and you're spending not just$200 a month for Grok 4 Heavy Pro, but you're spending, yeah, millions. And you get the whales that you see on mobile games. Which sounds crazy, but people have actually done that. It happens on OnlyFans, and it happens on mobile games, right? There are whales that spend a ton of money, because they have a ton of money and they love the product. Has that happened? I don't know. I haven't heard any stories about Ani whales or Ani companions or Ani even getting a lot of traction. It's not like we've seen.

1:31:05Yeah, popped on the charts in Japan. Yeah. But. Yeah, how are we tracking? And then also, it's rolled into so many other products. It's like there isn't a standalone metric that we can be tracking because it's not a public company and it's not pure play. And so it's not like we can be tracking DAUs and time on site and average ARPU month by month or quarter by quarter at this point. But it'll be interesting. I don't know. But I mean, it does feel like if they can get that flywheel going, that's something that could be a catalyst for marshalling the capital, regardless of what you think about it morally.

1:31:42If there's demand for that inference to chat with Ani and Valentine, and that's something that OpenAI and Google and Meta are staying away from, well, that's an opportunity. So we'll see where it goes. Oracle is going to make so much money if you believe OpenAI is successful. Meta, Dylan Patel thinks Meta's got the cards to potentially own it all, the only company in the world that has the full stack from good hardware. That's what Meta just showed with their glasses with the screen, plus good models, plus capacity to serve them, plus the knowledge and know-how around recommendation systems to know what content to put in front of the user.

1:32:16It's all four of these that you need plus the capital. I think Meta is close to being the only company that can do that. Google, Dylan Patel was pretty bearish on Google two years ago, but he's super bullish Google. Now they're waking up on every front. They're taking the TPUs. They're selling them externally. They're taking their models, and they're actually competitive on them, and they're training much better and better. They're being aggressive on infrastructure investments. There's a lot of dysfunction throughout the company, but they do have the hardware business that they can pivot into this.

1:32:44They do have Android, YouTube, and all these IPs. They have search that can come together when we turn to the next interface of consumer. But they also can dominate the professional sense, too. And I think Google is well-positioned to capture both markets or a meaningful share of both. Well, interesting they didn't cover Microsoft in here. No. And they also didn't cover Fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service. Number one in performance benchmarks. Number one in competitive bake-offs. Number one ranking on G2. But we'll have to get Dylan Patel's take on that. In other news, we mentioned it earlier, but the team over at Cognition rebuilt Devin for Claude Sonnet 4.5.

1:33:27I don't think we'll have full time to dig into this whole write-up, but it's interesting that they dropped in Sonnet 4.5 into the old Devin, and they did see a higher score, but it took more time. And so they rewrote it and they got both an even higher score with even more time saved, which is obviously valuable. They said the new version is twice as fast and 12 % better on our junior developer evals. And it's now available in agent preview. And they're keeping the old Devon alive. It remains available. Yeah, Alex, we didn't get into it a ton, but Alex in Anthropic yesterday was very excited about 4.5's potential on the agent front.

1:34:13Yeah. Nick Carter has a good little deep dive. I was going to call it a mid-dive. It's pretty deep. You want to hop in this? We got a guest joining in six minutes, but we can try and rip through this if you want. We can come back to it. I'd like to have Nick on the show to talk about this, But let's go through it. It's an interesting question. A few points here. He says the stablecoin duopoly is ending. He's obviously referencing USDC and USDT. Circle and Tether. The Circle equity is currently worth$30 billion. Tether's TopCo is reportedly raising capital of$500 billion, which would become, if they could get that done before OpenAI, that would be the most valuable private company in the world.

1:35:00Isn't that more than SpaceX? More than SpaceX. Wow. More than OpenAI. Why do bank robbers rob banks? That's where the money is. Tender at 500. But yeah, again, this is, I think, the most profitable company in the world on a per-employee basis. Extremely profitable. Together, the two stablecoins boast$245 billion in supply, or about 85 % of the stablecoin market. Since inception, only Tether and Circle have maintained meaningful market share. No one else has even come close. Dye peaked at$10 billion in early 2022. Two, Terra's Doom UST did surge to$18 billion in 2022, but accounted for only 10 % of the market.

1:35:37And that was only briefly. The most ambitious attempt to dethrone Tether and Circle was Binance's BUSD, which peaked at$23 billion. So he goes into some of the new market dynamics. One, we had Zach on from Bridge yesterday talking about how anybody can now sort of quickly originate stablecoins. So expect to see a lot more banks do this. They're not going to just give up the yield that they currently get from dollars. So, yeah, I'm interested to see what the legacy banks do, credit unions, et cetera, how quickly they'll move here. because they're certainly all paying attention. Yeah, I still don't fully understand the full chain of value accrual because if you need cross-chain interactions, there could be attacks there as you're trying to get from one stablecoin to another.

1:36:37Why is this market not monopolistic? Why hasn't one just run away with it in the way that Bitcoin has with that digital gold narrative? Why are we seeing a proliferation of stablecoins? It is an interesting topic to dig into. But anything else you want to cover from the... No, do we have our first guest yet? Not quite. A couple minutes. How'd you sleep last night? I got a new phone. I wasn't logged into my 8 Sleep app. I should have been because I got a 98. 98, baby. I got a 79. Last night I got an 87. Barely tracked six hours. So I still beat you. Play my song, Jordy Hayes. There you go. Let's go.

1:37:17Thanks. Buko Capital shares Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Meta, and Oracle are now spending 60 % of their operating cash flow on CapEx. It's time to build, baby. I expect it to go higher. Where do you think they'll get to? Yeah, why not spend 100 % of it? Why not spend 100 % of it and then go raise debt and then spend more? Like, I don't know. What's the efficient frontier? If CapEx is valuable, if it returns profits, go higher. Liz says it's going to go even higher. Well, we've talked about it. We've talked about it. But, you know, if you have the leaders of these companies that don't care about ROI, that could take us into quite dangerous territory.

1:38:00Potentially, yeah. What do you think, Tyler? I just have some other news. Yeah, what else? Thinking Machines has released a product. I mean, it's not really a product. It's an API. It's an AI video app. And it's adult-themed. they took the reins off thinking machines what do you think the machines are thinking about thinking about but um it's basically it's an api okay um they you can basically do like training so it's like they have a couple supported models i think it's just quen and llama a bunch of okay of those series um but they basically it's just like we handle the infrastructure you just give us the data and then we'll you can fine-tune is this uh i remember the narrative around thinking machines being like it's RL for business.

1:38:43So if I want the fine-tuned version of the most cutting edge open source LLM, thinking machines will allow me the infrastructure to do that, to fine-tune, to reinforcement learn on top of my data. I don't know if it's, oh, I think it actually is RL. I need to read through the whole announcement. They haven't released a ton of it, but yeah, pretty interesting. I mean, it seems like kind of very competitive with, I think OpenAI offers is the same thing. They do. A fine tuning of the big models. But maybe there's value in focusing and being known for that specifically and then having a really clear divide.

1:39:18I mean, OpenAI with that product, obviously, if you're on the enterprise plan, they won't train on your data, but there's still like this, you know, you're dealing with a show golf with multiple product lines. You go to Mira, maybe you get a more focused team that's really, you know, not AGI belt at all, I guess. Right? Does this update your timelines, your P-Doom? I don't think so. I mean, this is kind of expected of what they were like. They kind of said that they were going to do. RL for business. They're doing fine tunes. This was our riff. What did Mira see? You know, everyone asks, what did Ilya see before he left?

1:39:52But what did Mira see? Maybe she saw business value creation. And that's what I like. Let's hear it. Let's hear it for value creation. We love it. Fine tuning. It's essential. Who else is going to do it? uh there's 6.2 million dollar fundraise for nozomo why i cannot pronounce that arlen we interviewed arlen arlen that's right at yc demo day yc demo amazing well congratulations to arlen crv's in box groups and local globe some good names hit that gong for arlen Congratulations on the progress. Congratulations. There's some other cool stuff. Mr. Hafner here, Donajar, is announcing Dreamer 4, an agent that learns to solve complex control tasks entirely inside of its scalable world model.

1:40:46This is what Tyler was alluding to with some of the value of world models besides just playing Minecraft, actually teaching, just serving as a reinforcement learning environment. And then there's a bunch of other stuff in here. Intern says, hey, man, just wanted to reach out and say how much I loved how much you drank at the networking event last night. you're not gonna get that on sora you gotta go to that uh there's also not gonna get that from grok apparently no not not yet uh you're also uh there's also a wonderful ranking of energy drinks here notably missing is andrew huberman's year of mate mateina of course but uh goth says the gold can is elite if you don't believe me or don't get it i don't have time to convince you sorry and that's the caffeine free diet coke i do the caffeinated diet coke but uh interesting i don't even this post is claiming that the gold can diet coke the caffeine free and sugar free diet coke it's just forever chemicals apparently is is uh the drink of men who are destined to find eras change history and who will be remembered pure forever chemicals carbonated forever.

1:42:06Well, if you're bullish on Coke or bearish on Coke, head over to public.com investing for those that take it seriously. They got multi-asset investing, industry-leading yields, and they're trusted by millions. We have our first guest of the show, Rhys Chowdhury from Concept Ventures. Welcome to the show, Rhys. How are you doing? Yeah, it's good. How are you guys? Big fan of the show. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Thanks for hopping on the show. Give us the news. Break it down for us. What's happening today in your world? So, uh, today or yesterday we launched, um, our latest fund.

1:42:39It's$88 million. Yes. You can ring the gong. We have a bell in our office and we put it in many years ago and people, people would always bring it as well. So I thought that's a, I love, I love the analogy. So let's go bigger. Let's get you a Liberty bell. I don't, I just, from the way you described the bell i can tell it's not taller than you and it's got to be huge i want to mask well 88 million you have the management fee fees to have a bell guy yeah just stands there ready to people think two or twenty you get two percent for the fee you don't get two percent if you get two percent over 10 years 20 you might you could spend two million dollars on a bell tomorrow and i think you should that's it that's the first order that's going on amazon so so give us give us the pitch for the fun give us the strategy a bit of a contrarian take you're hunting for value in Europe.

1:43:30Yeah, we are hoping to give a value. So for us to be, obviously, we're based in Europe, we're based in London. So, you know, contrarian to many guests, you may be having Australia. Awesome that you've got some European founders on. And Carl and Victor, I saw that. So again, two contrarians there as well. And so we really focus on that earliest stage of investing, the concept stage or that pre-seed stage. There's not many pre-seed funds in Europe. And, you know, we've got the largest as of as of yesterday and you know we're focused exclusively on investing in the people themselves so we go very very deep in in you know everything about people from like their childhood to the how they met their co-founder and you know what they spike in and you know do they have like are they like a chess champion and we you know we break it down into kind of four kind of archetypes which most unicorn founders um specialize in so we have no sectors basically so either you're a first first time founder that maybe worked at big tech you had a first time founder that you've you know been at a unicorn like you know we've got a company that spun out of synthesia a company called anam which is backed by redpoint or you're a second time founder or a phd spin out and so like within the team we all kind of specialize in one group of people and that like really gives us an insight and traits having like work with i don't know second time founders yeah are they learning all their lessons before so we we often take these very contrarian bets in really rogue sectors from high-frequency trading to robotics to commodities marketplaces.

1:45:00Let's give it up for high-frequency trading. Question for you. How does having less competition at pre-seed, obviously every stage is hyper competitive now, at least in the U.S. Basically, every pre-seed allocator that we know is moving up the stack in the U.S. At least that's what I can tell. It feels like I'm hearing that from so many American pre-seed investors who are like, well, people are moving down the stack to 15 years ago. It was super uncompetitive. I was the only one I do explain what a pre-seed firm was. Now I'm doing series Bs. Well, well, it's also, even if you're still doing pre-seed, you oftentimes have, you know, a pre-seed lead.

1:45:38If you really want to lead a pre-seed round, which maybe call it a 500K check, you often have to make a decision in 24 hours. Like you need to move quick. You you might be comfortable and so having a little less competition at that stage i don't know does that change your process at all do you are you do you have more time to get to know founders are you still feeling um you know that that urgency yeah look i think um i think in in in in europe we're traditionally maybe a little bit more conservative than the u.s and you know we love you know when i when we started concept everyone was like you're crazy literally you're crazy for doing this because you know you really needed a mark you know market or a product or you know and in europe you know traditionally we all come from outside we're we're not insiders to bc at all like we haven't come from those top names we all the team are not not from that background and i think that gives us a real edge in kind of like evaluating but also taking that risk and i think what we see if there's no product or markets typically to go after the underwriting process actually a lot quicker because you're literally evaluating people so typically our process takes like we call it like five hour energy it's because it's like you know five hours of founder's time and you know we go through our process and we're looking for very specific traits and things in those individuals and we when we get that we we're happy to lead we lead 90 of our rounds we don't care what other people do you know we don't care about FOMO you know it's a very kind of set deal typically we're investing a million dollars at kind of the start and you know we don't need anybody else to kind of make that decision and i think you know generally europe needs needs more of that i mean you had matty on the show yeah you know we'll see that was that was our first investment out of the last five oh let's go that's amazing i want a banger that jordy you got a dude yeah it's just every if you're getting a off the ground just back one founder like 10 more of them at least you know you know one time of fund you'll probably be pretty in a pretty good spot where's your what's your lp base look like for the new fund are we are we uh uh like you know what what's the mix european lean more italian supercar owners or british supercar owners no we're only allowed to talk about golf now given given the last uh you know obviously europe's won something so we've got to focus on that but no but no to answer your question we've actually got um most of the institutions we've onboarded in this fund i think 80 of them are u.s actually okay let's go keep it in the family thank you for thank you for working for our alligators secret american secret american over there doing work for us uh okay thank you for supporting lightning round question please like please i want to i want to hear about sourcing you have uh you have three places is where you can go to source the next great pre-seed founder.

1:48:36You can go to a Cambridge student union meetup, meet young new grads. You could go to a pub outside of DeepMind after they just failed a training run. You can try and poach someone from there. Or you can go to Monaco during F1. Which one are you picking and why? I'm taking the DeepMind, DeepMind every day. Hang out at the bar. Get the disgruntled DeepMind. Oh, the training run just failed. I want to start a company. I got to get out of this bureaucracy. Yeah, I think I'll tell you that. And last time, I think we invested in three ex-Palantir people. So we love a good forward deployed engineer.

1:49:16And so I think that's something, you know, we think that talent generally gravitates to places that have amazing cultures. And we spent a lot of time looking in the cultures of those companies, particularly in Europe. And I think you've had this one wave of, you know, the ui pass the spotify you saw you're at the kleiner ipo obviously and that was kind of like one way which has happened and like you know gone public and now you're having this new ways you've got carl and victor on the show you've you know you've got matty and there's others like you know granola in london and i think these are like people are just going bigger right they're just thinking bigger because they're learning more from these kind of repeat successes and that's coming from all parts of the ecosystem if you're working in a company out of a company you're seeing these success stories.

1:49:59And I think there's a lot more to come personally, but having, you know, boots in the ground and that partnership with our American LPs, I find that, you know, typically the American firms eventually get in, right? Like every IPO, every exit, you'll see, you know, you win in the end. They're not always comfortable making that bet. So I think that's where we can play a role of like kind of making that conviction early and, you know, going forward. Fantastic. I'm super bullish on you. Congratulations. And the fund, if I was an American multi-stage VC, I'd be trying to, yeah, take down a good piece of the fund.

1:50:35And, yeah, I'm super, super excited to see companies you back. Thanks so much for hopping on the show. Thanks for having us, guys. Cheers, Reese. Congrats. Bye. Cheers. I want to pull up this post by Sherwood. Sherwood says, may I suggest a different tagline? You can feel the diff. Posting an image of a graphite billboard. Graphite is, of course, a sponsor on this show. and the billboard is not even using all the billboard space. It's so over minus and then plus is we're so back. It's clean though. It got 5 ,000 likes. And this is the interesting long tail of less flashy out-of-home ads that wind up still going viral.

1:51:16That's the benefit. That's why you've got to get on adquick.com. Out-of-home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out-of-home advertising. Only Adquick combines technology, out-of-home expertise, and data to enable efficient, seamless ad buying across the globe. Do we have our next guest already? We have our next guest. You can see him right there on the big board. There we go. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. How are you doing, Jim? Good to meet you. Hello, John. Hello, Yordi. Doing very well over here. How about yourselves? We're doing fantastically today.

1:51:42A bit of a crazy day with Sora 2 taking over the news. So we spent a lot of time talking about that. But what's new in your world? Yeah. Well, we raised a Series B, which is, of course, the big news. in our world over here. How much? How much? Yeah, so he raised a bit north of$50 million to build new AI agents or AI factories. AI agents for AI factories. Let's go. Let's go. We've been waiting for this. What does that mean? Yes, Jensen says AI factory is a token factory. It's just a data center. Or do you mean AI factory as there's robots walking around making iPhone cases or something like that?

1:52:18Yeah, we mean it in the Jensen sense, right? So purpose-built, mega-scale data centers, that exist to convert electricity into tokens, right? They exist to generate intelligence. That's what it means. So concretely, we make AI agents that are capable of autonomously operating and optimizing physical mission-critical infrastructure. What are the top things that kind of break when you're running a large data center that normally a human has to step into? Normally it's time-consuming. Now they're leveraging an AI agent to maybe just work while they sleep or kick off a problem solution so they can have the agent go and work and solve some of the problem for them?

1:53:01What are some examples of problems that you're solving concretely? Yeah, yeah. So you have to pardon me if I get a little bit nerdy. I'm a mechanical engineer. Go to town. Get nerdier. Go to town. Yeah, so I think one of the important things to realize is that AI factories today look nothing like traditional data centers, right? Like when I started in the industry, I joined a much smaller Google back in 2010, right? And our concept of a large data center were these 30 megawatt modular data centers. And at the time, we thought to ourselves, who's ever going to use 30 megawatts to compute, right?

1:53:34And now, obviously, the industry has changed a lot. Now we talk about gigawatt-scale data centers that are purpose-built for AI workloads, i.e. AI factories. The most important thing to realize about AI factories is that they're orders of magnitude more complex. There's a lot of stuff in there to orchestrate, a lot of pumps, a lot of chillers, a lot of liquid cooling CDUs, right? And they have very nonlinear interactions with each other. So what our AI agents do is they have a global view of everything that's happening across the AI factory. They can absorb tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of sensor trends in real time, and they act like a general on the battlefield, right?

1:54:08They're issuing AI-generated command signals that are sent to the local control system for automatic implementation execution, right? So it's really what we would call AI-enabled supervisory control for these very large AI factories. Where do you think the – so if you're doing the orchestration and management, where is the physical work going to come from? Is that being met by somebody that's just on call in a data center today? Do you think that robots will eventually do that work? Data centers are great in that they're sort of a flat, controlled environment. It's kind of a good setup for not necessarily a humanoid robot, but just a robot on wheels that can go around and make adjustments.

1:54:53But what's your kind of vision for once your agents decide what needs to be done within the system? If it can't be done purely with software, how does it get done physically? Yeah, totally. It's a good question. So to be very clear, the agents are not capable of replacing the physical labor that needs to happen. So things like turning wrenches, right, taking a chiller offline, cleaning it, that's stuff that, you know, you need humans for today, right? Maybe eventually we'll see robots, right, taking care of that sort of stuff. But what we do is more of the software level orchestration of all the equipment, especially the mechanical cooling systems, right, that happen in these large AI factories.

1:55:34But I think one of the important things to also recognize is that the industry is growing so rapidly right now that there is just a massive, massive, massive shortage of skilled labor expertise in the industry. Jensen talks about how electricians and plumbers are going to be two of the hottest trades moving forward because of the scale of the AI factory build out. In the industry that I come from, you see a lot of folks with white hair and you don't see a lot of folks our age in the industry. So there is a massive shortage. A lot of people are retiring. They're taking knowledge with them. Our hope is that these AI agents, in addition to providing optimal functionality, these AI factories can also augment the labor force, right?

1:56:13We communicate our AI agents as virtual plan operators, right? They're virtual members of the operation staff. You can't see them or hear them, but just like me, they're permanently working from home, right? And doing a lot of stuff in the background. Can you explain to me what the software stack looks like for all the different pieces of a data center? Like we've talked to a lot of folks who are building software for traditional manufacturing, and they talk about Siemens has a control system that has some sort of archaic API. And then they write, you know, a wrapper for that API, and then they can create a dashboard or they might be able to trigger some things on that.

1:56:54But does a chiller have an API that can be accessed over Ethernet or something? How do all these systems tie together? How open is it? Whenever you're building an AI agent, people will comp you to Cursor. But Cursor is a fork of VS Code, open source software. And then all the code is stored in GitHub. Very easy to scrape in and download and work on. I imagine some of these tools are either closed source because that's part of the business strategy of that industrial company. or they're just so old that they haven't gotten around to actually writing an API. So walk me through all that. Yeah, yeah, it's a great question.

1:57:31So, you know, frankly, the data center industry hasn't seen a lot of innovation a really long time, right? Until NVIDIA came out with, you know, the latest generation of chips. And now all of a sudden, right, there's real innovation, you know, real creativity in the data center industry again. Before it was really just copy and pasting the same old stuff over and over again, right? A large part of that is the closed ecosystem effect that you were just describing. If you look at what the traditional incumbents are doing, like the Siemens, the Schneider Electrics, whatever, yes, there are protocols that exist like Modbus or OPCUA, NQTT, whatever protocols that exist that act as the APIs that enable these large mechanical equipment to coordinate with each other.

1:58:16However, that tends to exist within a walled garden. So each of these major automation vendors, right, like the Schneider Electric's of the world, they make it very difficult for you to integrate, right? There's no such thing as, you know, an easy way for third parties to access the data and analytics that are coming off of these mission critical systems. So a large part of what we do is integrating with a large variety of these building management systems or these data systems to ingest that data and make intelligent decisions off of it. This seems like something that you can't just pick up from a couple of Google searches.

1:58:50Like, what were you doing before? How did you actually learn that this problem existed? How did you get up to speed on all these different systems? Yeah. So in 2010, I was a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed college grad joining Google. And back then, Google was still small enough and young enough that new college grads had outrageous amounts of responsibility, right? So I was fortunate enough that I actually helped design some of Google's first large cooling systems that go into their data centers. Then in 2013, I became the person responsible for Google's energy efficiency programs for its data centers.

1:59:22The primary metric is PUE or power usage effectiveness. Even back then, Google was already consuming billions of dollars in electricity. So it is in our incentive to optimize the energy costs, right? And that's grown by orders of magnitude since. Then in 2016, something called AlphaGo happened. If you remember, that's kind and what made DeepMind famous. My co-founder, Veda, was one of the AlphaGo engineers. I saw what happened and I thought to myself, if we can create AI agents that beat the smartest, most intelligent humans at complex games like Go, then surely we can teach these same AI agents to play other games like let's reduce the energy consumption of Google's data settings.

2:00:02Power management. So, yeah, so I reached out to a guy named Mustafa Suleiman who was the co-founder of DeepMind, right? Just a guy. Let's go. Just a guy. Chad is loving you, by the way. Yeah, they said, this guy's cracked. This guy rips. This guy rips. Everybody loves you. Thank you for joining the stream. Everyone's going crazy. It's almost like your entire life was leading up to this moment. Overnight success. So it was, I mean, it was just a cold email. I was totally not expecting anything of it. But I pitched this idea of, like, what if we take DeepMind's reinforcement learning agents and use them to control big-ass infrastructure like Google's data centers?

2:00:36So we did it. It worked. It worked surprisingly well. I actually ended up joining DeepMind for three years. I led a business vertical called DeepMind Energy. We applied reinforcement learning for all sorts of things, like commercial building, HVC. Then my co-founders and I realized reinforcement learning is actually really good at industrial scale control and optimization. So we started Phaja. Well, congratulations. What a run. Very excited for you. And glad to see you have a nice Series B to go put to work. I got a feeling you'll be back on the show for the, in not too long. So congrats on all the progress.

2:01:12I hope so. Great to meet you. Have a great rest of your day. Thank you very much. Have an awesome day, you guys. We'll talk to you soon. Well, if you want to optimize your wrist, head over to getbezel.com. Your bezel concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch. We have our next guest from Moon Lake in the TBPN Ultra Dome. Son. Coming in from the Restream Waiting Room. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? Welcome to the stream. Hey, what's up? Thanks for having me. What up? Not too much. Welcome. We got to be fast about this because I want reactions to all the stuff that's happening in the timeline.

2:01:47But kick us off with an introduction on yourself and the company. Yeah. I'm Fanon. So I tend to go by son. I'm the founder and CEO of Moonlink AI. We're really spun out of Stanford AI Lab. A couple, around six months ago, we started this company really to build AI that can generate real-time interactive content. Think simulations and games. Yep. So, yeah, I mean, what are your reactions to SOAR 2, Vibes? There's all these different paths that people are testing. Is it a tool? Then there's also this interesting take about maybe we won't even be consuming. It's all reinforcement learning data for robotics.

2:02:26Like, how are you viewing the market play out just in AI-generated content, video, virtual worlds, all that? Yeah, I think it's very apparent that there's a lot of people going through this space and it's really just because the potential is unbounded. Being able to model the world, let alone any other virtual reality, is going to be the next biggest wave in AI, no doubt. Now, what we're doing is actually very different. Yeah, I was going to ask. A lot of people playing an image in video, we haven't gotten a lot of pitches around creating these interactive media, something more like you could imagine a mobile game built on Moonlight.

2:03:08Am I going in the right direction? Totally. Yeah, you can imagine games being built, simulations, and really the main difference when it comes to simulations and games compared to videos or images is the interactivity, right? User outcomes change the trajectory of the world or the game or the environment that you're acting in. And that's what really differentiates us from videos or image generation companies. How do you think about tool use with ChatGPT, just the knowledge retrieval app? We went from GPT 3.5. It was okay. GPT 4 was great. Then we added tool use. And there was a moment when it was like, just keep scaling it up and it'll learn the answer to every math equation.

2:03:56And then the engineers in OpenAI just realized, wait, let's just teach it Python. And it'll just do the math in Python. And then you'll get the right answer. and you don't need to memorize everything into the weights of the actual underlying model. And when I see these virtual worlds, these generated worlds, I feel like we are in the GPT-3 moment and we haven't yet given them a database to store your inventory or given them the ability to, even a notepad, to write down what happened in Act 1 of the game. How do you think tool use comes into these generative worlds? and will it track with what's happened in the ChatGPT app?

2:04:36I think tool use is exactly the right paradigm that we should go about thinking about creating virtual worlds. You know, computer graphics has been around for decades, if not like hundreds of years, right? And we have the tools that enable us to create the highest fidelity virtual worlds already, right? Look at all the movies, look at GTA, right? It's just that these things are hugely expensive and manual to create today. Like GTA costs$2 billion to develop, right? So really what we believe is that we should use reasoning models to reason about the representation, the tools to use, the models to use, and consolidate all these things into a platform that allows anybody to be able to live code their interactive worlds.

2:05:27worlds right these are the things that are historically just barred by um just complicated tools and and domain expertise but it doesn't have to be that way do you think uh how do you feel the legacy game studios have been reacting to the opportunity in generative ai so far have they been yeah like have they been i i you know i don't follow gaming super closely but For example, like the EA Take Private, you could imagine they start. Huge opportunity, for sure. They have a lot of IP. They could, if they're private, they could have the potential to take a longer term view on AI and try to reinvent themselves.

2:06:07But I'm curious how you view it. Yeah. No, all the studios that we talked to are stoked about it. Right. So we were actually talking to a team that owns F1, and they were talking to us about the possibility of being able to create racing games that ghost races with F1 cars in real time. right and i think what's what the way we should be thinking about this is that what we're building at moon lake allows things like so many more things to be built or things that are historically cut or just made um impossible due to the time and resource that entails to create these things right and so really all the studios and um folks that we work with on the gaming side are stoked about what we're building in there a lot of them are you know looking to collaborate with us what are your what's most rate limiting to you right now is there enough data out there is there enough compute out there is it just do you need to you know just go and have really smart scientists think and think and think and come up with an entirely new uh you know technical paper and algorithmic innovation like what is on your critical path there are definitely a couple of algorithmic breakthroughs that we are still working on we have some of the best scientists here to work on those problems but really even without just like significant breakthrough i'd say the technology today, if you just consolidate them with reasoning models, the upside is already unbounded.

2:07:49Right? Look at Roblox. It's a$100 billion business with really more traditional graphics approach compared to like all the generative world model techniques. Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with this Ben Thompson take, but he was saying that like ChatGPT is so successful that at this point, OpenAI could stop training foundation models and it could be clawed under the hood and it would still be a fantastically amazing business because ChatGPT has won the application layer in knowledge retrieval. It's the app on everyone's phone, right? Like, do you see yourself becoming an application layer company, staying in a foundation model layer company, like doing some sort of blend?

2:08:31Like, how do you see your business developing? Yeah, we are actually an applicational company. So we are going to build products that allows anybody to be able to create interactive experiences. Yeah. Right. The way we go about thinking about, oh, whether we're product or model company is really that product is first principle. Yeah. But a lot of the times, given what we're building is at the frontier, we need to do a little bit of research and some model training in order to power the best product experience. Yeah. So the analogy that I like to make is Cursor, right? Cursor didn't start off training their own foundation model, but they had their top completion model.

2:09:07They have these smaller modules that come together to form an amazing product that people love. And that's what we're doing. How crazy is the inference cost right now? It feels like Sam Altman's setting the GPUs on fire with Sora 2. Obviously, per token, inference cost is declining by 1 ,000x every couple of years or something like that. But for all the demos that I've seen in world generation, they've all been somewhat limited. It hasn't gone super viral. I haven't seen, oh, yeah, there's 100 million DAUs on Genie 3. It's like Genie 3 isn't even available. And so how GPU constrained, how crazy is it to actually go and release one of these things into the wild?

2:09:52And what's the path for actually bringing down the cost of inference here? Yeah. So I would say inference is definitely something that we think a lot about and a computer is definitely something that we use a lot for. So if you're a GPU vendor, I like to talk. But I would say our unique approach of using code to represent the world provides persistency and it consolidates all the tools such that we can use client-side compute to calculate next state of the world. And that actually allows us to not have to spend an insane amount of compute on just generating the next frame of the world. And that's because of our unique approach of combining cogeneration models and diffusion models.

2:10:40The way we're building this product is using a representation or a hybrid representation that allows models to choose what representation to use to represent this particular problem in this particular environment. and that actually allows us to be very computationally efficient compared to existing world model companies or video generation companies. There's been a ton of pushback against AI video generation. Like the reaction to MetaVibes on X at least was very negative. People were pretty amazed by Sora 2, the model, but then there's been a lot of negative takes about Sora, the app. How do you think this will be received once we have a Vibes or general availability, just an app that anyone can download and start using really early.

2:11:31Do you think people will be more optimistic about it? Do you think there'll still be this pushback and then you have to get through it somehow? How are you thinking about it? My view is the viscerally negative reaction that I have to a slop AI video is because of the character inconsistencies and something about it just feels very wrong to look at. whereas with moon lake i imagine you can create this like gent you know if you generate a a consistent world that's interactive and it's beautiful something like being in a mid-journey yeah prompt that i think would be it's about the experience the user has when they actually are playing around with it yeah like today soar can be entertaining but still you can have a negative reaction to it yeah whereas i can see this done correctly yeah how do you think people will react to when this technology broadly, probably from you, hopefully, becomes general availability to the point where every, yes, I like it, bet on yourself, to the point where it's just an app, anyone can download it, and we're seeing millions of people on board.

2:12:33What do you think the reaction will be? I think people will love it, right? Because what we're doing is not like we're generating the content that people consume. We're just putting great tools into people's hands and allowing them to create and craft the experience and worlds that they desire, right? And we're just making it 10X easier, 10X faster, 10X more accessible. Take us through the round, and I also want to hear about the uses, but give us the numbers. What did you raise? Also, is this your first company? It is. Nice,$28 million seed round. You're in the big leagues. Straight to the big leagues.

2:13:08Yeah, who did the round? How much was it? Yeah, so we raised$28 million from personal ventures, AIX Ventures, NVIDIA Ventures, and alongside 10-plus Unicom founders and angels, and some of the most influential AI researchers, too. That's great. We're super grateful for their support. I can't wait to see what people build on top of Moon Lake and play around with it, and I'm sure we'll see you back on here soon. Thank you so much for joining, and congrats. Congratulations. Thank you for having me. Cheers. We'll talk to you soon. Up next, we have Wander. Find your happy place. Wander. The Wonder and Inspiring Views, Hotel Great Adventures, Dreamy Vets, Top Tier Cleaning, and 24-7 Concierge Service.

2:13:50It's a vacation home, but better. You know, one day you're going to snap when I cut you off. I still think it's funny. I think some people are getting sick of it with the ad transitions. But we're having fun out here. And we have some news in the chat. People, they said the circle table is growing on them. And the horse in the background is growing on them. There we go. They say never make a change. Can we get a shot of the horse, please? our beautiful horse cam this massive horse this this uh you really have to i really have to stand next to the horse to get the scale well uh we have carl pay from nothing uh in the restream waiting room we'll bring him into the tbpn ultra dome let's do it and get the update on nothing for this carl how you doing wow long time no see this view looks fantastic no see it's good to be back it's great to have you welcome to the show give us the update give us the news what's the latest in your world?

2:14:45Yeah, there's a lot happening over here. Last month, we just announced a$200 million Series A raise. We're very excited.

2:14:56We got Henry on the drums. Thank you so much. Congratulations. What was the biggest catalyst for that? Is that just growth, adoption, churn? Is this the AI narrative? What was the big catalyst? Yeah, I think it's just growth. Like last time I was on the show, I told you guys that we're approaching a billion dollars in revenue just this year. In the last couple of years, we've been really focused on building the foundations because we all know, you know, making hardware is pretty tough. There's so many things you got to get right. So we created this like smartphones. It's one of the most difficult products to make in hardware.

2:15:34And we're seeing a lot of traction in the market. So I think this fundraise is more about all the traction we have in terms of growth, but also with an eye to where we're going in the future. Because I think in the next couple of years, we're going to see an explosion of new hardware and software products based on all the advancements we're seeing in AI. And I think we're just pretty well positioned to this opportunity because on one hand, we're not too small. Like if you're too small, it's hard to ship like really high quality products. we are a consumer business so people actually like real people spend real money on our products and we're also not too big right if you're too big it's kind of you're already super profitable it's a public company and it's hard to really latch on to these you know opportunities so i think we're in a sweet spot where we can still move fast and be super creative but also have the infrastructure that we build from engineering perspective supply chain perspective and also go to market perspective.

2:16:29How quickly are you in the team shipping features and functionality that you just want to try yourself that's maybe not ready for users? I mean, I can't imagine. There's so many people building an AI that wish that they had unlimited access to their hardware and could do whatever they wanted, right? Let's try a new model in there. Let's try this open source model. Let's try this new transcription. He demoed that exact feature that I was begging for. And so I just feel like you guys are, yeah, have that incredible advantage of owning the full stack. Yeah, we're definitely cooking up a lot of products right now.

2:17:05And I think, you know, having built a team that can make phones, making other form factors is a lot easier. So we're going to be shipping our first AI devices beginning, starting next year. Let's go. What can you give us? Give us something. Is it larger than a bread box? Is it bigger than a phone? Is it smaller than a phone? Well, like, you know, we're in a phase for the entire tech industry where we're looking for a product market fit for the next form factor. Totally. We don't think anybody's going to get it right on the first shot. So we're really gearing ourselves up to iterate quickly, take feedback quickly and ship stuff with great taste.

2:17:46So I think that's the kind of winning strategy if you don't have like products with pre-existing product market fit to build towards. We were at MetaConnect, and I heard an interesting take from their head of hardware devices. He was saying that he's a big fan of technology that mimics things that we've been wearing for, like, centuries. So he wants to do glasses, a necklace, a chain, a wristband, a watch, a hat, you know, but not try and create something that no one's ever interacted with before. The exception is obviously the phone. I guess we were carrying around notebooks before the iPad or something.

2:18:28But do you ascribe to that belief that it's easier to bootstrap a new hardware device off of replacing a ring or replacing a hat or something like that? Do you like that framework? I do because the product market fit risk and the kind of user education risks drops significantly. But I think the real catalyst to these new devices getting adoption is actually consumers finding value in them. And the reason why I believe they will find value in them is over the next couple of years, as people find that these new devices with these new sensors can capture more context on them, then the product will become more personalized and more capable for each individual.

2:19:09Is that just cameras and audio? I was laughing to myself about is Smell-O-Vision a prerequisite to AGI? And I don't know if there's any progress on getting smell sensors. but it's probably not on the roadmap for next year okay good luck hopefully you have some we have one guy in r &d breaking carl pay says that he's not entirely against smell of it okay um the other thing i wanted to mention was um our announcement yesterday we announced something called essential apps and basically it's a platform where every person every creative person can just use natural language to type what kind of apps they want on their on their phone and then they click deploy and it shows up on their phone, on their nothing phone.

2:19:57That's the kind of thing that how many people that are building Vibe Coding products wish that they had even the ability to do something like that without having to make it work within Apple's ecosystem. It's just, it's pretty, you guys have such an advantage in terms of experimentation. Yeah, that's the fun part about owning the full stack. And today, we just launched, yesterday we just launched the Alpha. So the capabilities are still quite limited, but we're already seeing just after 24 hours, almost 10 ,000 people sign up for the waitlist. And it's not just like any waitlist because you have to pitch your app idea for us to accept you into the waitlist.

2:20:36So I'm super excited to see what people build and deploy. If you were to build a humanoid robot, would you go with clear plastic so you could see the innards? and do you think that would be more dystopian or actually more uh more like you'd be humans would be willing to embrace it because it's not pretending to be a human i know exactly what it is and i think it would get us away from like the uncanny valley of a humanoid robot that's trying to look like a human it has some sort of skin mask on and looks kind of creepy versus like if you're just seeing the guts that's maybe better. What do you think?

2:21:16I think it needs to be even friendlier looking because all this new technology is very exciting for us in the tech industry, but out in the real world, a lot of people are super scared of what's going to come. So it has to be disarming, has to look friendly. There has to be a warm feeling interacting with that technology. So it should probably look more like a toy or something. Did you see what DoorDash did this week with Dot? It's such a cute little robot. They absolutely crushed it. I think that's the way to go. I love it. More friendly robots, more friendly, creative hardware devices. Very excited for everything you're doing.

2:21:51Thank you so much for stopping by the TBP. Always great to get the update. And congratulations on the progress. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. Up next, we have Shazan from Lava coming into the studio with some exciting news. He's in the Restream waiting room. We will bring him in to the TBP in Ultrodome right now. Let's do it. Play some sound cues. How are you doing? Good to see you. It's been too long. Great to catch up. Great to see you. Give us the latest news. I got to warm this mallet up. What you got for us? Camera is always pretty horrible when I'm on TBPN for some reason. Yeah, we'll get Ben and the production crew to give you the guide to your first TBPN.

2:22:35It's especially rough car pay. Maybe a VHS camera wired in so you're in 1980s. But you're too locked in. You're locked in. There's nothing wrong with a laptop call in. We love it. Yeah, I'll have to get something better next time. So today we announced a raise. But even more importantly, we announced the first way for people to earn yield on their USD backed by Bitcoin. so basically historically in crypto you've been able to earn yield on your cash or stable coins but you've had to engage if you really wanted to do it you have to engage in all these complex crypto financial engineering schemes you know terra luna which was a big blow up that happened a couple years ago or you have to lend your money on these platforms where the collateral is a basket of altcoins that you know could get they're not as liquid they're very volatile Lava is the first way for you to earn yield on your cash backed only by Bitcoin.

2:23:35So the way it works is you can deposit USD from fiat, from stablecoins to Lava, and you earn yield by Lava then making Bitcoin-backed loans on the other side of that. And unlike banks, basically, this is what banks do with your money, right? You give them cash to make loans. Lava's loans are all over-collateralized by Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the most liquid asset in the world. that trades 24-7. It's very safe. All loans can be instantly liquidated in the case of default so that you as a lender are always protected and safe. Banks basically take 99.7 % of the returns they get for themselves. Lava just gives that back to you.

2:24:13So that's why our yield is so high. It's double the next best savings account that you can get right now. And the nice thing about Lava is that it's available all around the world. So even if you're someone in Brazil, for example, you can use lava get cash and earn seven and a half percent yield on it obviously lava that has a lot of products are bitcoiners but this is mostly for people on the other side who have dollars and are not all exposed to bitcoin but want to earn a safe um and high return on their dollars what's uh what's pushback have you gotten any pushback from from users yet i think when people see yield that's higher than the Fed's funds rate?

2:24:56They're starting to get a little wary. Just intuitively, when I see 7.5%, I think 7.5 % risk. I think 7.5 % gain, but also 7.5 % risk. I feel like risk and return should be directly correlated in a functioning system. But how do you think about it? Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm here. There's a lot of education that we need to do. And there will be a lot of trust that we'll need to build with users over time, right? So I don't think that exactly just because it's 7.5%, that means it's a lot more risk than the Fed funds, right? I think it also shows that on the other side, the Bitcoiners are willing to pay a higher yield for bargaining.

2:25:34It's the Bitcoin in the market. It's absolutely efficient right now. You know, the yield might compress over time as well. The yield, you know, might, but here's some things I can talk about the safety, right? Like one, the loan book has never had any losses. When you lend your, when you deposit your money out of cash, There's some level of FDIC insurance, but if you get past that, then you're also just taking on the risk with the bank, right? The bank is making under-collateralized loans. With Lava, you're making fully over-collateralized loans, double-collateralized. And because Bitcoin is so liquid, as a lender, you know that the Bitcoin can be sold at any time so that the cash that you're lending, it will never go underwater.

2:26:13So there's a lot of things that we're also going to release over time that can help people feel way more comfortable with the safety. So on one side, we've had a lot of Bitcoiners that recently saw this product that are not all in on Bitcoin. They totally get it. You know, Bitcoiners have been saying for a long time that the best risk adjusted rate of return you should be able to get on your cash is by lending against Bitcoin. So for a lot of these people, these are early adopter user bases. They've already just been like, you know, we've had a ton of signups that have been coming into this product.

2:26:43They already get it. They already understand the security. They understand Bitcoin's liquidity and how Bitcoin market structure works, how selling Bitcoin works, how liquidation works. So they've been really excited because there are Bitcoiners that understand Bitcoin that might have 60 % of their net worth in Bitcoin, but the other 40 % in cash. And it's almost like this barbell strategy, right, where your long-term assets are in Bitcoin. It's like the best long-term savings asset. But then with Lava, now you have this short-term liquid way to deposit and earn yield on cash. and you can always instantly withdraw as well.

2:27:18Is your business helped by a lack of volatility in Bitcoin or are you hurt if Bitcoin becomes really volatile? It's been really stable this year, it feels like. It's just kind of hanging out around 110 or so, I think. And it certainly has felt like a lot less volatile time with Bitcoin specifically. is that good for your business or does it not really matter? Walk me through the relationship of volatility to your business. I mean, our business changes in different, maybe I can just explain how our business looks in different worlds of Bitcoin. Right now, I think if Bitcoin were to go down in price over the next, let's say, few months, we actually might see a lot of increased borrow demand because when Bitcoin is down, people don't want to sell their Bitcoin because they're like, well, it's kind of down.

2:28:13I predict that it will appreciate over time, right? So they actually will borrow against their Bitcoin. And when Bitcoin is up, maybe in a couple of years, if Bitcoin really gets to where I think, there might be a time where people might actually, I mean, I'll never sell my Bitcoin. A lot of our users never want to sell their Bitcoin. So they'll probably still borrow against their Bitcoin. But there might be some people who might say, let me take some, you know, let me sell some of my Bitcoin. Then some of those people, instead of borrowing against their Bitcoin, they might actually sell their Bitcoin and then maybe even use that extra cash they have and deposit into this yield product, right?

2:28:47So we've kind of built this system where no matter how you feel about Bitcoin, Lava is a place for you. If you're more cash heavy, you can use our yield product to earn yield on your cash. If you're more Bitcoin heavy, you can use Lava to hold your Bitcoin and borrow against it. So we have a feature for both views that people have about the world and about Bitcoin. Okay. Anything else, Jordy? How's kind of the growth of the loan book been overall over the last few months? I know last time we talked, it sounded like it was pretty insane. I mean, yeah, it's been growing exponentially. And I think over the next few months, this next month is going to be big.

2:29:28We're making a big loan upgrade as well and lowering rates. So anyone who borrows against their Bitcoin today will see a substantial decrease in their interest rate this month automatically. So we're about to release a big announcement. Maybe I'll come on back on TVPN for that as well. I'd love it. But it's been great. I think there's been a lot of people who have barred against their Bitcoin to do a lot of things that I didn't expect, you know, buy houses, buy cars. The home buying use case has been one that I was particularly surprised to see. Yeah. is there more uh is there a rough way to think about the interest rate and uh over collateral realization requirements is there sort of a back of a back of the envelope that you give people who are thinking about onboarding so i tell people to start their loan with 50 ltv so if they're borrowing a million put up two million dollars of their coin yeah right and um with lava you will we guarantee you the best rate so you if you come to lava you know you're getting the best rate across any other platform on the market so confident on that one thing is if you actually really look at the rates on lava today and kind of consider like capital gains tax to you really have to believe that bitcoin will just appreciate five percent compounded for it to make more sense for you to borrow against your bitcoin versus selling your bitcoin which i think anyone one holding Bitcoin probably believes it's going to appreciate more than 5 % or compounded.

2:31:00That makes a ton of sense. Well, congratulations on the progress. Thank you so much for stopping by. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers, dude. Have a good rest of your day. Up next, we have Victor from Synthesia, another AI video generation company. First AI company we've ever spoken to. Yeah, it is the first. I've actually seen these ads. Synthesia is the world's largest AI video platform for the enterprise. And so we'll see how this is all taking shape. Welcome to the show, Victor. How are you doing? What's going on? I'm very good, guys. How are you? I'm great. Why don't you kick us off with an introduction on yourself, the business, kind of give us a lay of the land as it stands now.

2:31:46Sure, yeah, I'm Victor. I'm one of the co-founders and CEO of Synthesia. Started the company in 2017, so it's kind of a while back before any of this stuff actually worked. And we kind of endured three or four. Yeah. We endured three or four years of pretty painful just like sitting in the proverbial garage trying to make this stuff work. And in 2020, we were the first company to launch Avatars, the technology, right? which essentially is technology that allows you to create talking head style videos like you're kind of watching right now, but instead of recording it to camera with a microphone, et cetera, you simply just type out the script and we generate an AI video of someone saying that, right?

2:32:23Back in 2017, everything kind of started with the idea of like creating Hollywood films on laptops and going much more down the kind of creative route of, you know, just like you can publish and write a book from your bedroom, you should be able to do the same thing with Hollywood films. Since the founding of the company, you know, and kind of where we are today, We kind of took a fork away from that and essentially went into enterprise knowledge. So what we figured was that... Let's give it up for enterprise knowledge. Thank you for doing it. They tried to... The big Hollywood, the creative world, they tried to pull you in.

2:32:51You said no. I am loyal to Sass. I love it. I grew up dreaming about working cross-functionally and making videos for enterprise. Yes! Let's go! Hit that gong.

2:33:06the whole team's fired up making corporate videos for employee training that's why we do this show thank you and it's i mean it's just really smart right it's ai is clearly good enough to make this form of video and clearly not good enough to one shot you know feature films or even most often eight second videos struggling yeah um wait so uh sorry jordy do you have stuff or you want yeah i mean i i i wanted to jump in briefly because we we spent the first uh half of today's show talking about sora kind of reacting to it i thought it was a great product for entertainment purposes right the cameo functionality everything's very memeable but something about when you're going in the field going through the feed it's it's kind of hard to look at the videos like yeah i have this like very negative reaction just something about these these videos uncanny valley yeah that and then and then the distortions and character inconsistencies is is still rough to look at even when you're curious how you guys specific thing it's still there's a vibe or feels off and so you guys have somewhat of a cap i'm assuming a lot of the use cases you have somewhat of a captive audience people that need to watch videos to learn about their role and their companies and things like that but still you want to avoid people watching watching the videos that you guys generate and having that sort of negative reaction of oh this is ai right so how do you think about avoiding that what what makes that possible i think there's fundamentally like two types of video right this kind of video you watch because you want to and this is mostly stuff you'll find in feed so like when you're scrolling tiktok you're on netflix just like thinking like what movie to rent whatever, right?

2:34:48That's something you actively choose to do. And generally, you have like a lot of choice, right? Like you could watch like a thousand different action films, but you choose to watch this exact one. And I think that's your point before. I think AI will be a huge part in creating lots of this content in the future. But it still feels like the reason people mostly watch this stuff today is because it's fun, right? It's novel, it's cool, it's AI. It's kind of weird. It's not because it's necessarily like amazing content yet, at least 99.9 % of it. There's still some good content out there, I think.

2:35:16The space we operate in is much more around knowledge. It's not really around creating storytelling content. It's not advertisements. It's generally content that you wouldn't... It's not content that competes for your attention, right? It's content that's very specific and helps teach you something. That could be product marketing as a company, right? You want to teach your prospects why your product is better than the competitions. There's only that one video to watch, right? And the reason people create these videos is because it's better than text. So I I think the first category of videos, you're generally competing against like high quality video recorded with cameras and people who really know what they're doing.

2:35:50I think the thing we really uncovered back in 2020 when we started building towards the enterprise was that what we're actually replacing is text or slide decks. And in 2025, most people, especially your average consumer, want to watch and listen to that content. They don't want to read. And for some people, probably other people listening to this podcast, I'd much rather prefer to read a page of text and watch an AI-generated video. but it turns out that that's not the preference for most people right and when people have a problem with their bank and they're trying to figure out like how to do something they don't want to read a long page of text they're trying to figure out how their mortgage works how much they have to pay in their mortgage they don't want to read a whole page of text that much rather watch a video and so what we're going down the path we're going down is just much more around like knowledge video right it's it's much more of like replacing text with video then it's about replacing video with ai video and that's a really really big difference where i think you know when You look at Zara, Runway, a lot of these other models, they're much more competing to actually replace real video with AI video.

2:36:47And I think that's also a big market. It's super exciting. But we think that there's a much, much bigger market, actually, in enterprise knowledge and turn that into video. And with that, I should also say, I think, a lot of the talk around AI video is always very much about the models. The AI hype at the moment is like there's a new model every second week that's even more impressive than the other one. And that's awesome, right? That's a big component, of course, of making these technologies work. But I think we have this mantra called utility over novelty, which really is about like, you know, it's not about cool demos, it's about bringing value to the customer.

2:37:20And when you think about why do you make a video, the actual generation of the pixels is a part of that, but it's a smaller part of a much bigger process, right? So what we've been doing over the last five years is really building out a workflow. We help replace the camera with the AI models, but we also give you kind of a Canva PowerPoint-style editor to finalize your video. We enable someone who's a PowerPoint user, not an Adobe user, to make their own video. It's a collaboration platform. It's a content management system. It's a translation platform. We have our own video player that's made to work with AI video.

2:37:51And so for us, it's always been about building for the entire workflow of like someone has an idea or some piece of knowledge that they want to communicate to an end consumer. How do we make that entire process as frictionless as possible, right? And I think what it just turns out is that, yes, the AI models are really important, but there's so many other components of making a product that does this workflow really well. I think that's what we're much more focused on at Cynthesia. Very cool. And very impressed that you were able to crack 90 % of the Fortune 100. That's remarkable. Last question.

2:38:23We'll let you go. Do you see yourself as being a foundation model company and an application layer company over the long term? Or is there a world where you partner with the foundation model companies to let them, you know, suck up all the capex to generate frontier models? Do you already do that? How do you think about the shape of the business long term? Sure. I mean, we try to be very intentional about, like, what kind of company we're building. Yeah. And I think every company should be. And I think it's increasingly clear that competing on the foundation model level is very difficult unless you raise a shit ton of money and you hire extremely expensive people.

2:39:04And I think there's just a game that very few companies can play. We still train our own models. I think there's lots of use cases where that still makes sense for us. It's, again, if you work backwards from what are people trying to do with our models, right? It's not just like an eight-second clip, for example. It's not very useful. It's also not very useful that the identity doesn't get preserved across multiple. because there's a lot of these asterisks that you don't see when you watch the cool demo videos of these new models that are coming out. But we just started also aggregating other people's models in.

2:39:31So that both means you can just use Vio3 inside the platform if you want to create content that's outside of what an avatar model can do. We're also beginning to chain these models together in different ways. We can create A-roll, B-roll, do lots of cool things with these models. But LLM is a huge part of our platform as well. We have a co-pilot product, help you write the scripts, put together the design, the visuals. So we train models when we think it makes sense and we think that it gives us a competitive advantage. But, you know, we're definitely also aggregating the market. And to the extent that we can avoid having to do massive training runs, I think that's the only rational choice to do for a company like us.

2:40:06That makes perfect sense. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to stop by the TV. Congratulations on the overnight success. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. Thanks, guys. Cheers, Victor. Our next guests are already in the Restream waiting room. We'll bring in William and Dogus from Periodic Labs. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Welcome to the show. Welcome. How are you doing? Hey, good. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it. Fantastic. We have been so excited for this. This feels like the antidote to the timeline today. Yes. So, yeah. There's a lot of negativity about certain AI products.

2:40:42And a lot of positivity about Periodic. What you're building. Yeah. I mean, first of all, that's very important technology, too. So, like, don't want to, like, pile on the hate over there. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we've talked about the good and the bad. The good is that it's very entertaining outputs. There's logical business reasons why you would do it. Clearly, there's demand. All the economic flywheels. And, yes, world models for training robotics, training, you know, who knows? Maybe a robotic surgeon in a decade will be trained on AI video in some way. But anyways, let's talk about you guys.

2:41:15Let's talk about you. Quick intros. on yourselves and then the company. That'd be great. Hey, guys. My name is Dosh. I have a background in using machine learning to study physics. And after my PhD, I joined Google to do deep learning research. And that's where Liam and I met. So that was eight years ago. And at Google, I did some deep learning research, but I continued to do my PhD passion to kind of move all the advances from deep learning into solid state physics. and then in 2020 I actually started a team to just focus on material science because I felt like LLMs were getting really good and we could probably really benefit from porting these advances to the physical R &D and then I've been doing that until you know six months ago when Liam and I left our jobs and started this company.

2:42:05Amazing. Yeah and I go by Liam, I have a physics background academically, spent many years at Google Brain, worked on a mix of generative models, reinforcement learning, and created some of the first trillion parameter neural nets. These are sparse models, really fun collaborations with Jeff Dean, Noam Shazir, and others. Then in late 2022, went to OpenAI, and a group of us took precursor chat products, and we turned that into ChatGPT. Like I've told many, many people, it was legitimately a low-key research preview. I mean, there's like the prior up to that point was there'd been no successful chatbot.

2:42:45So there was a poll as to how many people would use this thing. And people were guessing numbers like 10 ,000, 50 ,000. Someone's like, oh, maybe a million people will use ChatGPT, which we exceeded in like a week. And I mean, reflecting back on that, I think obviously there's good luck, good timing, but also boring things done really well. Like we're really focused on training details, data evals. There's no novelty to it. Like ultimately people have been building chatbots for many decades, but just crossed a critical boundary. Yeah. And so left six months ago to start periodic. What do you think of that Gwern idea of you just need to generate random ideas and look at connections between them to find scientific insight?

2:43:32Do you think there's anything there? Is that directionally correct? Is that a path that people will go down? Are you going down that path at all? I mean, I think it's incredibly promising. Like I think linking these disparate ideas is really promising. However, unless you actually have experiment in the loop, you're just sort of thinking. So you can imagine like, hey, here's a really promising thing to try. But as every scientist know, it's like until you actually take that idea into like to try it to act, you're really no further along to like building up a scientific understanding. So for periodic, that's our opinion, which is we need to have experiment in the loop.

2:44:10That's super key. There's so many different experiments. Are you selecting for a few different environments? Are you going to get a large hadron collider or a wet lab? Science is very broad, so have you narrowed it down at all? One way of thinking about it is the LLAMs today are really good at math and logic. So the next obvious frontier is theoretical physics. And there are different energy scales of theoretical physics, but we wanted to take the part that is very relevant to human life, which is quantum mechanics, you know, Schrodinger's equation. So this affects all the inorganic materials, organic molecules, drugs.

2:44:51So we're starting at the level where we're just designing how atoms come together and how their properties can be utilized in devices. Just start with the simple stuff.

2:45:04Yeah, so just drilling in deeper, what does success look like for you guys as a team over the next even, you know, I can imagine the five-year, what success looks like five years, ten years, right? These sort of massive ambition. How do you sort of make, you know, immediate progress now that you guys are heavily funded and have the resources to really move on these opportunities? I think you can kind of describe it along technical and commercial goals. From technical goals, the highest level way to describe it is have a system that can intentionally design the world around us. So right now we've built systems that understand the internet.

2:45:49They have been trained on math and code. We want to take these same type of techniques and build a system that can produce things of like properties of interest. So you're trying to optimize for a new material for a semiconductor industry or a space company or a defense company is looking for something for like a new heat shield for a missile or anything. It's like, how can we intentionally design the world around us? And that's sort of a goal. Some of our higher risk goals are around novel discoveries that Doge can talk more about as well. Yeah, and even before you get into that, you guys are coming from organizations that were totally okay with years and years and years of just deep research and not worrying about immediate commercial applications.

2:46:38From you guys with the new company, I'm assuming you're open to having much longer kind of commercial timelines and just basically experimenting, right? Some of this stuff is unpredictable. You talked about ChatGPT being a research preview, and it turned into a hit product. So, yeah, there has to be some takeaway from that process. I mean, one comment on that is we can basically produce through this technology, through experimental data, a foundational understanding of physics, of chemistry, of atoms, just the world around us. And you can sit at different levels of abstraction. Some levels might be more kind of like scientific exploration and others might be more towards advanced engineering, advanced manufacturing, engineering.

2:47:30And we're going to have both pieces as part of periodic. So the labs allow us to produce deeper understanding of different physics, chemistry, material science systems. And our guidance there is like, are we able to produce new discoveries? Are we able to advance science? But however, that data also gives us a better foundation when we're actually working with customers. So we want to make sure that our labs, our prioritization, the tools we're teaching our agents do have some grounding in sort of the commercial opportunities. Exactly. Yeah. Like technology and capital are very intertwined. It's not like technology doesn't develop in a bubble and we can accelerate science maximally when it's like a very commercially successful enterprise.

2:48:18I went on a serious emotional roller coaster with the LK99 saga. And then there was a proposed breakthrough in superconductors, room temperature superconductors. I was very excited on the Internet for a few days. Then it was found not to be such a breakthrough. And then I kind of fell out of that news cycle and stopped tracking it. Get me up to speed on where we are on superconductors. What's at stake if we can have a breakthrough there? Is that something you're interested in working on? Do you think that this is actually even a tractable problem that you can make any sort of prediction about where we are in terms of progress there?

2:48:57I'm super interested in that. Yeah, you know, we're very excited about superconductors. And being able to discover a novel, exciting superconductor requires us to do well on many dimensions of physical sciences, which we're very excited about. So one of these is being able to synthesize materials reliably, being able to characterize materials reliably, being able to predict their properties, design their defects. And for us, it's also a very important scientific goal. So currently, the highest TC superconductor at ambient pressure is about 135 Kelvin. and under pressure you can make it a lot higher temperature but then it's not very practical because you can't really apply that kind of pressure.

2:49:41And it's very interesting to wonder, can we bring that up to 200 Kelvin, for example? And if we can, even before it impacts products, I think it teaches us a lot about the universe because it's a very large macro scale quantum property. So we have real good characterization tools in the lab And that immediately prevents us from an issue like LK99 because we can actually measure its properties at different temperatures. And for us, the LLM being able to use the characterization tools and infer the relevant physical insights is crucial. So we're teaching our LLM agents the ability to synthesize, the ability to characterize, the ability to hypothesize the next step.

2:50:23So it will be really exciting, I think. Yeah, that is part of this is so key, right? The lab is providing our grading function. So again, that keeps us grounded. That makes sure. And it's sort of a very interesting objective to put a lot of optimization pressure against. Yeah. Have you stack ranked the impact of room temperature superconductors or even higher temperature superconductors in terms of the impact? I remember people talking about quantum computing. but then I also saw a demo of just some like hoverboards and like skateboards that were using magnets and superconductors to kind of, or super cooled, uh, magnets to kind of like float.

2:51:04Uh, where do you think the impact would be if we get a breakthrough there in the next couple of years? I mean, the impact is huge. Like whenever you think about a futuristic technology, like fusion, you know, low loss, energy transmission, quantum computing, as you said. And even, you know, when you talk to chip companies, like think about the chip design of 10 years from today, superconductors always come up because it's such an important quantum mechanical property. But at the same time, it's just very easy to understand. It lowers your resistance to a point where losses are very low. So for us, it's probably one of the most impactful things we can do on the South State physics side.

2:51:46Can you guys give us a white pill, like a pump-up speech? I feel like so much of, you know, there's been common chatter about, you know, all this CapEx, all this compute that we're developing as a country and a human race. A lot of it's obviously going to go to image generation and memes and things like that, and that's fine. But you guys are doing the thing that has been promised by the AI community broadly for a long time, how excited should people be about the potential? I think you guys are both very modest, but talk about the impact in your words because I take it means a lot coming from you given that this is your scientific discovery is the entire focus and commercializing it versus labs historically that are maybe working on some of the same stuff, but they're also working on a million other things, right?

2:52:45They're also working on, they could be working on CodeGen. They could be working on new versions of search, et cetera. But this is your guys' whole thing. So I'd like to hear, yeah, just that optimistic vision of what's possible. I mean, ultimately, science is unbounded. That's one of the biggest drivers of progress for humanity. It's not like we optimize and we can now match the performance of a human on some task. It's you're just creating new technology, new abundance by being able to kind of control the physical world around you. And we think that the technology is at that stage where we've seen incredible things on models from mathematical reasoning, code reasoning, also the ability of some of these agents to start doing like real valuable work.

2:53:33But the world around us still kind of like largely looks the same. It's like not really moving too quickly. And I think as the cost of intelligence decreases, Doge and I are thinking the bottleneck increasingly becomes contact with the real world. Bring data, bring atoms like into this end to end system. And that's going to lead to this new ability to just accelerate scientific progress, accelerate the technology around us. And I mean, it's like the applications of scientific developments are endless, right? Like, you know, becoming more of a space traveling society, like, you know, new computation.

2:54:13It's, you know, it's unbounded. I think that's what excites us. Yeah, there will be no end to this, right? Like, it's not like we can finish science. Actually, the more jobs never finished. That's exactly. So it's a really fun place to be because of that. I love that. Well, congratulations. We're going to ring the gong for you. 300 million. Last question I have before you guys jump off and you can keep it to 30 seconds. What's your philosophy around building and sharing your guys' work? We've seen different approaches from the labs. Thinking Machines has been experimenting, sharing some of their progress.

2:54:46SSI been very silent. Some of the other labs are also constantly sharing just small products, etc. But how do you guys think you'll approach it, given your focus? Yeah, so we're building tools in the physics space. We're building tools in LLM space. And we will definitely share whenever it seems like it will enable the community. We also have an academic grant program where we want to support academic groups that are also passionate about this space. Because we feel like science is endless. So there's so much to do and we'll do it together. Amazing. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on, breaking it down.

2:55:22I'm sure we'll have you back on again very soon. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, guys. Congrats. Our next guest is in the restroom waiting room already. Legal ATI. Fundraising announcement. Let's do it. Let's bring in Jay from EVE. Jay, how are you doing? What's happening? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on, guys. Busy week for you. Give us the news. Give us an introduction. Give us an explanation of the company. Give us an update on the news. Absolutely. And I can't wait for what's coming next. Oh, yeah. You know, you know. Get that mallet ready. But we are EVE. We're AI for plaintiff law.

2:56:01And we just raised$103 million at a billion. Boom. There we go. Fantastic. You know, we've talked to various players in AI legal. goal. We don't follow the space nearly as close as probably many of the investors do and you do. But I first time hearing about you guys was yesterday. Give us the backstory on the company, because you're not obviously just coming out of nowhere. I'm sure you guys have been cooking for a while. No, absolutely. So we we took an unconventional approach, which is, you know, we basically took time to understand what plaintiff and defense law means and how they're different, which maybe a lot of people don't know.

2:56:47But plaintiff lawyers, these are the ones that you would typically find fighting on behalf of individuals. So they typically don't charge billable hours. They make money when they win for you. Think labor and employment issues, personal injury issues, family law, things like that. On the defense side, you get the nice benefit of retaining a company and kind of cashing it in every year. And then you have to typically they charge by billable hours. So on the two sides, there's very, very different business problems and opportunities. On the plaintiff side, they care about how do I represent more customers with the best of my ability to win as much as possible for them, right?

2:57:28Either changing conditions or money, right? In civil litigation. And on the defense side, it's like, how do I do more for the client, you know, for the same amount of time or maybe more time and delivering value. So on the plaintiff side, what we've found is there's actually a really good merger between AI and the efficiencies you get from AI and their business model, because you're able to go deeper and actually benefit more clients. Is that because you're charging on a value basis, right? You're taking a fee based on the value that you capture for the client or the, or the whatever, like, you know, if they're, sorry, the plaintiff, if there's a settlement, whereas Whereas on the defense side, you're charging billable hours and you can do a calculation as a client and say, how much value am I getting?

2:58:15Do I feel like this is a good deal? But because it's based on billable hours, it's less value-based pricing. Yeah, you nailed it. So we typically charge based on how many clients they represent. So there's a very clear alignment of incentives between what we provide for our customers and what they provide for their clients. So we're kind of aligned. Yeah, plaintiff law, you're incentivized to use more and more and more and more AI so you can have less time to serve each individual client and generate more revenue, which is, yeah, again, maybe different than on the defense side where it's like, oh, I like AI because it makes my job easier.

2:58:57but I don't want to be perfectly efficient unless you're just have overwhelming demand. You nailed it. And this is the really cool part about right now is our customers are using this to level the playing field and flip it in a way that's never been happening before. Right? So if you think about the average insurance company, they employ so many lawyers. And when you have a personal injury attorney showing up, it's oftentimes one person in court versus like 10 or 20. They just have endless resources to run you down. Typically, if insurance paid out, the industry wouldn't exist at all. That's what they're there to equalize and fight for on your behalf.

2:59:39What people are doing with Eve is actually using it to now... act as though they have a million-dollar attorney backing every single step of the way from intake to resolution resolution of anyone. right so now you can actually do all these complicated legal workflows specific to plaintiff law and we go deeper into these workflows than really any other tool can and deliver that to the high level of bar that you would want it to have as a client right you don't want as a client to worry about how many cases are they working on do they have time to spend on me uh and you know the law firm has the same problem how far away are we from just AI on AI, just violence in every case.

3:00:26It feels like... Sorry, I'll let you answer, but I've heard a story like 10 years ago about a law firm that set up a automated system just using not AI, just normal software to run through the line items that they were billing their client on the corporate side and detect what the client would say, hey, we're not paying for that. We're not paying for your two-hour lunch. So don't write that in. And so anyone who was writing their billable hours would know that it got flagged. They'll take it out. And then the other party got software as well to detect what was going to be maybe debatable in the billing.

3:01:03And so they did have this software on software fight in legal specifically, but just at the billing level. But now we're going one layer up. But I'd love to hear your answer on how it all plays out. You know, this is actually a really interesting question. and one we're seeing play out live is, again, the value alignment incentives. So on the plaintiff side, people are using it and they're coming up with tactics because they know the other side has to bill hours. And the other side doesn't want to really reduce the hours quite yet. So what's happening is one of the common ways defense slows you down is they kind of start discovery requests and responses.

3:01:39These sometimes take up 48 hours for plaintiff law firms to go fill out. and our customers using Eve are able to come back and return back right away. Right. And then the other side is like, what W, you know, what is this? What's going on? And they want to spend the time to respond. And that's actually raising the settlement value of firms because you're basically eating into what the lawyers would be charging their clients right on the other side. What are some of the downstream impacts of what you're building? You know, assume that you can get to, you know, 50%, you know, or some meaning double-digit percent of plaintiff law firms using EVE or comparable software, if there is a comparison.

3:02:27What are, you know, is that going to impact the insurance industry? Like, are they going to have to, you know, if every plaintiff has this super lawyer, you know, what are kind of downstream effects? Great question. There's a few different downstream effects I foresee happening, and we're seeing a little bit of this already. So, for example, let's take labor and employment, right? So I think you get fired, harassed, et cetera, you're getting representation. In this industry, typically a lawyer would want to see at least$5 ,000 in fee before even representing you. Because, again, they're doing it for free until they win.

3:03:04So they're baking that into how they think about it. and what we're seeing with eve is actually a lot more pro bono cases or them going down the value chain to take on cases they otherwise would never have right and now let's hear for more lawsuits we're getting more lawsuits yeah so our lawsuit is going to go exponential or we're going to see exponential i mean this would be very american if if we used ai to just 10x the amount of lawsuits annually but it feels like great great question what's interesting and maybe most people don't know this is very few cases actually get to a lawsuit perspective yeah right so in personal injury about 70 or so of cases actually get resolved before yeah a like at the demand letter stage exactly they would get resolved demand letter stage or some form of mediation before might even just be like hey yeah like you didn't pay this invoice you know we but we both know that this could turn into a lawsuit very quickly with ai so we're just going to settle quicker and we're going to get to like the median outcome where both people are happy.

3:04:01And that's exactly right. Because once a lawsuit starts, you know,$700 an hour, accounting hours. Arbitration, right? Arbitration, essentially, is like what's the maybe the long term result of a lot of like these AIs battling it out. Let's give us some numbers. How I mean, you raised it a billion. So things are seemingly pretty good. But what kind of traction have you been seeing so far? How many times have you been saying? One of the interesting bits is usage as well. And we've been fortunate. I mean, one of the really crazy things about this industry is I was just in a conference probably three weeks ago.

3:04:37And I ask this question every year. Last year I was there, I asked how many people have used AI every day or, you know, in the last week. 10 people out of 200 raised their hand. This time around, personal injury attorneys, 90 % of them raise their hands. Wow. So the amount of awareness and traction it's seeing is crazy. But what they've always been scared about is like, how do I use it? And this is kind of the problem we're solving, right? Because if you're just using ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever, you're spending a lot of time fixing things at the end. And that's not good enough for lawyers. They lose trust very quickly.

3:05:11So we had to go. Yeah, if you have an associate that just constantly makes every single time they make, you know, one or two mistakes, those associates don't, you know, eventually they get churned out. they get let go, right? So you want to hold the AI to a higher bar. Yeah, exactly. And then like when we hit that, you know, extra nine of accuracy, which I'm sure you two are very familiar with, our usage and adoption rate kind of blew up, right? So we've been from, I think, around 13 customers or so start of last year to now more than 450. I think we're approaching 500 now. And, you know, dollar signs are increasing very rapidly as well, which helps us invest even more behind R &D, which I'm super excited about.

3:05:54The Cognition team just rewrote all of Devin on the back of Claude 4.5. Are you in a similar world where a new model can cause like a fundamental shift in how you think about building the product? Are you sort of model agnostic? How closely are you tracking what the foundation labs are doing? This is one of the key decisions we made early on in the architecture is we worked very closely. Actually, funnily enough, we were one of the first productionized apps, I think, on Cloud 2 back in the day. And they actually expanded context window just for us. So you have multiple modality of increases, right?

3:06:33So model capability gets better. Context window gets better. You know, agent functionality gets better. all of these have a pretty drastic implication on how deep into a workflow can we actually go and what gets enabled so somewhere somewhere out there there's a there's a defense attorney who isn't online not using ai just doing everything the old-fashioned way and he's probably just getting his world rocked like month over month like how did you respond to that in an hour I was expecting that to be three weeks. That's great. Walk me through this thesis. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. Anthropic's been incredibly focused on the flywheel of code, coding agents.

3:07:20They're hoovering up tons of data, reinforcement learning on top of the code, developing a really dominant code model. OpenAI has been less focused on API, but Chachapiti's dominant. I've talked to, I bet if you polled those lawyers, a lot of them are using ChatGPT. If they're not on the enterprise plan, ChatGPT and OpenAI are going to be able to train on that data. And so you might have a data flywheel that actually makes OpenAI's APIs better for legal work. Is that a reasonable thesis? Well, I mean, according to the agreements we signed with them, they're not supposed to. That's because you're on the enterprise plan.

3:08:00What I'm talking about is like if I, a person, don't have an agreement with ChatGPT and I get a contract for an advertiser or something and I just uploaded that to ChatGPT, they're going to train on that. And I'm not saying that's your company. I'm saying me as an individual, I'm just putting extra data in ChatGPT. They're getting more data. It makes the bottle better. And then you benefit on the API side, even though they're not training on your data. Yeah, I think one of the interesting bits for us is we benefit from the general training, OpenAI, all these providers do. Yeah. Mostly because actually law is weirdly touches everything.

3:08:38Yeah. You know, when you get into a lawsuit, sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's technology, right? Sometimes it's like quantum computing or something. And these lawyers have to somehow be up to speed on these things, right? And the general training actually really helps. So that's one part of Data Flywheel. There's another part that I don't think people are thinking enough about, which is the one we benefit from in how we build Eve, which is all these intermediate tasks are actually not captured by anyone. An example of this is like, you actually can't even go Google, how do I write a really good demand letter for a moving vehicle accident for, again, State Farm or something?

3:09:16It just doesn't exist. And what they're doing internally is they're coming up with multiple artifacts to produce that final output. So everyone has a workflow, produce this document, this document, this document, and pull information from these three to make this final document. And they've all come up with their own workflows. And one of the things that we've been, I think, fortunate to do in EVE is we actually allow them to kind of teach EVE to do their workflows, kind of like how they teach a new associate or a new hire. And then after that point, it just follows it diligently without fail at a high level of bar.

3:09:53right this doesn't miss things like a person would because it it finds everything instantly so that's one of the ways in which it's changing and maybe i'll be a little spicy like what i kind of predict will happen here is i actually think these law firms will will basically transform into software companies over time right so think about early amazon or something everyone started being able to offload their hard disks and all these things into APIs. And what is happening with Eve is now, instead of relying purely on human labor to scale, you can start offloading these very crucial tasks that were previously not APIable into Eve.

3:10:37And you can view yourself as now, hey, I'm not just servicing one client one-on-one anymore. I'm figuring out a way to service everyone that I'm an expert in. So if I'm an expert in dealing with traumatic brain injuries, I'm going to take on every single traumatic brain injury case and do the best I can for them and be a rock star at it. And this is like the main benefit that software companies benefit from. They've consolidated the R &D efforts to make a really good product and sell it at incrementally lower additional costs for a net new customer. I think it's super exciting. I think the best lawyers are your friends.

3:11:15They're expensive friends, right? But they help you. You know, they're just they're they're there to think through problems. And I think that's just going to continue to be I think that's going to continue to be valuable for a long time, especially for the market that's paying for legal services today. But they're going to be able to be a one person. You're going to have a one person, hundred million dollar revenue, you know, plaintiff law firm, I imagine. Right. Because you just have this massive, massive efficiency and one person who's just great at. yeah, what's the doctor's bedside manners, basically, like guiding somebody through a potentially challenging part of their life.

3:11:51So super bullish on what you're building. Congratulations. And thanks for breaking it down for us. Got to come on anytime there's stuff in law. This was a fun conversation. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, guys. Cheers, Jay. Have a great one. I want to close out. We got to hop on with Taipei soon, but first I want to close out with this video from Elena or Lena. She's introducing Taya, AI you'll actually want to wear. I want to get your reaction to this launch video.

3:12:25Another AI wearable. They said it couldn't be done. We worry so much about tomorrow. We forget about today. It's an aura ring on your neck. It is remarkable how much you can pack into a ring these days. I'm always in shock. Is it an aura ring, though? Is it actually give you bio? No, no, no. It's not technically an aura ring, but it's just the aura ring form factor. It's a ring. Lindy form factor. Lindy form factor. People wear necklaces. I haven't seen a device company go after this market at all. It seems obvious now that you're seeing it. And I notice you can turn it on or off, so it's not just default on recording.

3:13:02And so it is an AI pendant. It is in the lineage of humane and friend.com, but it's less about saying mean things to you if you're a journalist. And instead, it's more focused on note taking and remembering things and being an opportunity. You pull out your phone to make a note. You get lost in the slop feed. Instead, you can just make a little note and it will remind you to go to this restaurant or that you want to pick something up from the grocery store. Joey Brady in the chat says, I pre-ordered a tie. I will probably give it to my mom. It's like Avi's friend thing, but actually novel and framed as jewelry.

3:13:41I imagine this would go, yeah, they should ship this before Christmas because this would be a great Christmas gift for sure. I agree with that. It's obviously a more refined. Yes. You can see even at the software layer, it seems like they've done a bit more to not, they're not trying, they're, what I'm not clear on is how much are they trying to be your friend? Do they care about that at all? Is it just about function? It does have a human name. Taya sounds like a name that you could wind up interacting with as an AI friend or AI companion. All right. Diffused in the chat says might have to propose with the Taya.

3:14:19I don't know about that. I think the non-IoT device might be Lindy, but I mean, it's cool. I think we've seen so many shots on goal with the AI devices, and it's good to see another one. We should work on our own, an AI device that's a full-size, life-size horse statue. It just has an entire H100 rack inside of it. You need a forklift to bring it around. It can inference GPT-5 locally. Horse cam is looking great. Look how massive this thing is. I was going to say, what about, Jordy, what about a smart cigar that you smoke to the filter? And as you smoke it, it gets less and less compute. I love this horse so much.

3:15:08I can't wait for the literal unboxing of the horse. We need to make more videos about this. The uncrating. In other news, Elon is building Grokipedia with XAI. He says it'll be a massive improvement over Wikipedia. People have been going back and forth on how valuable Wikipedia is. I think the founder of Wikipedia was not a fan of it anymore. Kind of the creation, sort of a Frankenstein's monster situation, I suppose. Well, I have a little white pill to end the show. Let's end on a positive note. Gwart says, doesn't matter who you are or where you come from, crypto provides the opportunity for anyone in the world to make it.

3:15:44It's true. And of course, Forbes reported yesterday that Barron Trump is worth$150 million and has made an estimated$80 million from token sales with an additional$2.3 billion in locked-up tokens. So he has been busy. Get him on the show. You remember when people got mad that Hunter was selling his paintings for maybe more than they were worth or being on a board here or there? So much more efficient to remove the paintings and just need tokens. Hunter Biden's got to be pissed that he didn't get into cryptocurrency. Yeah, missed opportunity. You missed 100 % of the tokens you don't want. I really missed out on, you know, Bill.

3:16:26I don't know. It's hard to imagine. I guess Hunter Biden token launched by Hunter Biden would probably. Might move. Who knows? Probably. Be safe out there. Yeah, be safe out there, everyone. The chat is asking us to name the horse. They're also asking for the backstory on the horse. It's a monument. We'll bring that to you tomorrow. We can do a whole deep dive on equestrianism tomorrow. We've along been fans of equestrianism. monostrianism but we got to hop on with taipei thank you so much for tuning in leave us five stars on apple podcast and spotify and stay safe out there in the trenches folks we'll see you tomorrow have a great rest of your day goodbye