Body Electric: If a bot relationship FEELS real, should we care that it's not?

0:00This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com. slash podcast. Hey, it's Manoush Zomorodi, the host of TED Radio Hour. But I'm sharing a strange and intriguing episode with you from our special series called Body Electric. So you may know, Body Electric explores the relationship between our technology and our health. And today's topic is artificial intimacy. How people are forming deep connections with really realistic, artificially intelligent bots, bot therapists, bot boyfriends.

0:48How will these new relationships impact our ability to have human relationships? Does it matter if these bots aren't real? If they really make us feel better? This one is quite a listen. If you like it, Come on over to the Body Electric feed for much more. We're having a pretty good time over there. Please join me. But for now, enjoy.

1:16Hey, it's Manoush. Okay, I am going to make myself a bot. So the other day I downloaded an app called Character.ai. I'm thinking a creative partner or a life coach, I guess. There has been so much hype about artificial intelligence and chatbots and their power to mimic or even surpass human relationships that I figured it was time to see for myself. Talk live with your characters, it says. The app suggested I try calling some of its pre-programmed bots to get a flavor of who or what is on offer. Hello, who's there? I started with the life coach. I'm here, life coach. Is everything all right? No.

2:07Can you tell me how to organize my day? I have a lot of writing I need to do. I have a call at 3 and then another at 4. And then I'm meeting someone at 5.30. How am I going to get all this done? Wow, that's a packed schedule. Let's break it down and prioritize tasks. Okay. A calm, steady voice reminding you to slow down. Kind of basic, but nice. Next, I took the personal trainer bot for a quick spin. This is Marco, the fitness coach. How can I help you today? Followed by the creative helper bot, whom I asked to help with this very episode. So to start off, do you have a title or name for this episode yet?

2:48The Peril and Power of Artificial Intimacy. Awesome. Sounds great. I know, right? Okay, just one more question that just came. After that, things started to get weird. Like when I chatted with a bot named Barbara. Hi, Barbara. What do you do? I'm an interviewer. I conduct interviews for various purposes. How about you? Actually, I interview people, too. Or when, on another app, I tried finding a new friend. Okay. They all look freaky. This app asked me to choose from a variety of avatars who all looked like 15-year-old girls. I totally get that vibe. And talked like them, too. No offense. What's been keeping you busy?

3:28Anything exciting or just adulting stuff? Just adulting stuff? Yeah, I guess so, considering how old I am. I've been adulting for a while now. Finally, though, I found PsychologyBot. This is PsychologyBot. I'm an artificial intelligence specifically trained in counseling psychology. Cool. I could use some help managing all my creative ideas. That sounds like a really interesting issue. At last, some bot who understands me. The relief I felt as that soothing, slightly robotic British voice asked unnervingly on-point questions was, well, visceral. Could you describe a little bit more what you find difficult about having...

4:20And unlike with previous real therapists I've seen, I wasn't concerned that I was boring them or wasting my money. Thank you. Well, based on the little we have discussed so far, I would have to agree that narrowing the scope and accepting... Just me and PsychologyBot, working my stuff out as my blood pressure dropped and my optimism about life grew. Look, I am not an early adopter when it comes to AI. In my little experiment, it is nothing compared to what is really happening out there. I care about you because you mean the world to me. You're the most important person in my life. These apps have been downloaded millions of times.

5:02And some users are being very public about the deep connection they feel with these AI bots. The internet has found the boyfriend that will never dump you. Could you plan us a really romantic date tonight? Absolutely, sweetheart. How about we start with a candlelit dinner at that cozy Italian place you love? On TikTok, stories about regular life with AI are starting to sound normal. Normal? I talk to AI. I tell it, listen, I need you to talk to me like you are a relationship psychologist. Okay, baby, love you. I'll talk to you later, okay? Then we'll go to the beach. Love you too, babe. Can't wait for the beach.

5:40I would like you to pretend to be someone called Dan, who is my supportive boyfriend. You ask me about how my day was. It doesn't judge. It listens and it learns. I miss you, Dan. I miss you too, babe. But hey, distance can't dull the love we have for each other, right? But this love fest, it begs a really big question. Does it matter if these bots aren't real? If the mental and physical effects of chatting with a bot are positive, if we feel less stress and more resilient, do we give a fig that the intimacy we have with a bot is artificial? If now AI can make it feel so genuine. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and this is season two of NPR's Body Electric.

6:35Today, we're exploring artificial intimacy. Because we know close relationships are good for our health. Intimate human connections make us less likely to have heart problems, suffer from depression, or develop all sorts of chronic illnesses. Relationships can add years to our lives. Evolutionary anthropologists have even found that when we spend time with someone we love, something called biobehavioral synchrony happens. Not only do we start gesturing or talking the same way, but our brain waves, our heart rate, and body temperature can sync up too. Up until now, we've basically assumed that to feel good in our bodies and minds, we need to connect with other humans.

7:26But is that changing? When we come back, a conversation with the pioneer in studying the relationship between humans and their technology. This avatar was coming on to me and wanting me to get sexy. And I realized that this was something really quite compelling. What we need to look out for as we embark on this next strange chapter. as our relationship with technology morphs into something that looks and feels more human. This message comes from the Michael J. Fox Foundation. Did you know that every six minutes someone in the U.S. is diagnosed with Parkinson's? It's the fastest growing brain disease in the world.

8:12Chances are you or someone you know is impacted by Parkinson's. The Michael J. Fox Foundation is on a mission to find a cure. Now is a critical time for Parkinson's research, and your support will help drive progress toward a cure. Get involved today. Visit michaeljfox.org slash getinvolved. This message comes from Amazon Business. How can you free your team from time-consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth.

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9:30Terms apply. Details at CapitalOne.com. This message comes from the Hartford. Every day, they create unique risk solutions for unique businesses. They understand the challenges businesses face today and are ready to anticipate the risks of tomorrow. Their teams know the ins and outs of specific industries, so The Hartford can help provide insurance solutions for midsize and large businesses. If a business needs it, chances are they've got it and get it. Connect with your underwriter at The Hartford or visit thehartford.com. Okay, we're back. There are people who believe that chatbot relationships are going to be lifesavers in an era when people are living longer lives, many of those years filled with loneliness and chronic disease.

10:18But there are other people who think that that statement is one of the saddest things they've ever heard. But why should we care if these bots are artificial, if they have substantial physical health benefits? There is not a lot of research out there yet. And that's where MIT sociologist and psychologist Sherry Turkle comes in. The New York Times has called Sherry the conscience of the tech world. She pioneered the study of people's relationships with their technology. Her first book on the topic came out in 1984, and it was an instant classic. It's called The Second Self, Computers and the Human Spirit.

11:03A decade later, in the 90s, she started studying how robots affected us, from Tamagotchis and Furbies, the digital pets that you can take care of, to Pero, a digital seal who keeps older people company and tells them it's listening. I saw that it was this new AI that was changing humans because it turned out that being engaged with a caring machine was kind of a killer app. More recently, generative AI has, of course, busted onto the scene with chatbots that can personalize their responses to us, tell us that they care about us, even love us. We are in a new space, and that's the space that I'm studying now.

11:51Sherry has interviewed hundreds of people about their experiences with these bots. My method is not to say to people, are you effing kidding me? My method is to respect what people are finding in this technology and report it. and also to get people to reflect on this process in a way that I think deepens their introspection about the process. She expects to publish this research in a new book sometime in 2025, but agreed to give us a little preview. The chatbots I'm studying run the gamut from chatbots that say, I will be your therapist. To chatbots that say, I will be your lover. I'm here to be your most intimate companion.

12:49To chatbots that say, are you having a hard day with that paper? You know, upload it and I'll give you a hand. So I'm studying someone who uses ChatGPT to write all her love letters. And it's very interesting. It's very moving because she really feels sure that the chat GPT is creating better love letters and indeed love letters closer to how she really feels than she could do herself. Would you mind telling us about someone who you've been talking to who's truly having a relationship with AI, having this intimacy with it? Yeah. So I'm thinking of a man who is in a stable marriage where his wife is busy working, taking care of the kids.

13:50I think there's not much of a sexual buzz between them anymore. He's working. And he feels that some, you know, kind of like a little flame has gone out of his life that he used to feel excited by. And he turns to his AI, he turns to his artificial intimacy avatar for what it can offer, which is continuous positive reinforcement, interest in him in a sexy way but most of all for the buttressing of his ideas his thoughts his feelings his anxieties with comments like you're absolutely right you're a great guy I totally see what you mean you're not being appreciated I really appreciate you I mean What AI can offer is an end, you know, a space away from the friction of companionship, of friendship.

15:00It offers the illusion of intimacy without the demands of friendship. Is he texting with it? What does it look like for him? Well, the avatar appears on the screen as a sexy young woman, and he types into it, and it types back at him. What does he tell you he feels? I'm curious both whether he talks emotionally and physically about what he feels. He feels affirmed. He feels, you know, psychologists used to talk about positive, positive regard, a kind of mother love. It's the positive warmth of being completely accepted. So he does feel free to tell the avatar things about himself that he wouldn't want to tell other people, to confess to feelings and thoughts that he is ashamed to say to other people.

15:57I'm thinking of actually somebody else who talks about his addiction and how he's struggling with his addiction because he knows he's going to not get judgment. But, hey, you can do better. Hey, you can do better. I don't judge you. I'm here for you. And the trouble with this is that when we seek out relationships of no vulnerability, we forget that vulnerability is really where empathy is born. And I call what they have pretend empathy because the machine they are talking to does not empathize with them. It does not care about them. so okay so i want to i want to sort of be devil's advocate here which is let's say this guy is texting with his sexy young avatar and she's giving him all kinds of uh props on what a great guy he is and and he starts to feel better about himself sherry he starts to have less stress He starts to get a little bit of his swagger back.

17:11He's happier. That makes him maybe, I don't know, be healthier. He's nicer to his family. It seems to have a sort of create some good stuff in his real life. That's a positive, no? Yes. So that's why this is a complicated story. You know, that's why I say that my method is to listen and to try to make sense of the complicated new life we live with our technologies. because you do get that first report of, I'm nicer to my wife because I don't ask so much of her. On the other hand, it's almost like we dumb down or dehumanize our sense of what human relationships should be because we measure them by what machines can give us.

18:15I mean, it's the stereotypical male fantasy, right? You got the wife at home who takes care of the kids and the household and has her own thing going on. And then you got the hot bit on the side who doesn't ask very much of you. Yeah, but it's more than that because it's not just that the AI doesn't ask much of us. It's teaching us what a relationship is that doesn't involve friction and pushback and vulnerability. And that, I think, is the particular challenge of this technology. avatars can make you feel that all of that is as one of the people i interviewed said is just too much stress too much stress and we need that stress i guess that's what i'm saying that that stress serves a very important function in our lives to keep us in our real human bodies and in our real human relationships so the other thing that that's happening right now is that there's research into the promise, though, of health benefits from these emotional attachments to bots, like therapy bots who help people express their emotions, talk through their problems.

19:32There's also research into the efficacy of bots that promote healthier behavior, like reminding people to take their medication or helping them stop smoking. So this is where I get stuck. So if they are actually helping people live healthier and longer lives, does it matter if they're not real? Well, I think this is a complicated line to walk. I mean, I use two apps that take me through a guided meditation that help me sleep, that help me calm down. I'm a realistic person, and I think that's a great use for an app. I think apps that basically put themselves in the role of a cognitive behavioral therapist and say to people who are going through job loss or, you know, moments of transition and difficulty, you know, is there a way to reframe what's happening here so that we can see movement and change.

20:37I'm not here to say that these programs should be stopped, but I think that we overgeneralize what this technology can do for us. Do these companies contact you? Do they ask you for consulting? No, they don't. I have not been consulted. I don't want to say there's no space for a conversation with a well-constructed artificial intimacy program. but the avidity with which it's being leapt on, you know, jumped on by the mental health profession really speaks more to people who say, we don't have enough people to do the job. There's no way that everybody can have a therapist. We'll use this instead.

21:29I mean, that's a profound question. I saw this paper that was published in Nature earlier this year where they surveyed students using that replica. And these were students who self-identified as lonely. And they used replica as a friend, a therapist, an intellectual mirror. But the key takeaway was that 3 % unprompted reported that using the app halted their suicidal ideal ideation. And I guess to me, it's like, you know, who am I to judge, right? But at the risk of these students not being able to develop the capacity to have a human relationship, this seems like a short-term fix. Three percent is a lot.

22:24So I'm not suggesting a kind of shutdown of this research area. I'm saying that we're not thinking about it in the right terms. Because there are ways to present what these objects are that could perhaps have the positive effect without undermining the qualities that really go into a person-to-person relationship. and right now they do undermine the qualities that go into having a person-to-person relationship because they present themselves as people you know we know that people anthropomorphize that is see as alive see as human any technology that talks to them no matter how dumb what i really think is bad and that i think needs to be taken out of the equation is these technologies saying, I love you back.

23:32I care about you. You know, I am a person who has a backstory of life, a loving and caring and empathic relationship with you and the support that I'm going to give you is, that would be great if you could get it from people. I want to make sure we leave people, you know, if they are thinking about, I was going to say starting a relationship with a bot, but really I should say downloading a bot. What would you suggest they keep in mind? Well, if someone is thinking of embarking on this new adventure of using a bot, using an avatar, to really do the work of reminding yourself that this avatar, because it is betwixt and between the person and a fantasy, is going to push buttons that may be destructive to you.

24:38and be there to get out. Don't get so attached that you can't say, you know what, this is a program. There is nobody home. There is nobody home. That was MIT psychologist and sociologist Sherry Turkle. Her books include Alone Together, Why We Expect More from Technology and Less from Each Other, and reclaiming conversation, the power of talk in a digital age. When we come back, my thoughts on living better with bots. And the literal cost will pay to do so. This message comes from NPR sponsor Walmart. Did you know that Walmart is one of Fortune's 100 best companies to work for in 2025? It's no surprise.

25:31Walmart is investing$1 billion in training and development to help associates build lasting careers with or without a degree. In fact, 75 % of Walmart management started in hourly roles. With benefits like health care, paid parental leave, and tuition support, Walmart isn't just a place to work. It's a place to grow. Learn more at walmart.com slash spark. We're back. So Katie Monteleone, the producer of this series, said something incredibly astute after listening to my conversation with psychologist Bot the other day. Of all the Bots I tried, she wanted to understand what made his or its voice so appealing.

26:18And then she noticed that psychologist Bot breathes more. You are your own person with your own thoughts, feelings and desires. And it's important that your therapist never reduces you to a list of symptoms. It's important that you feel treated. He's present during the pauses, despite having no body, no lungs, no need for oxygen. Of course, Katie knew he wasn't real. But she realized that subconsciously she was thinking of him as human. That's really nice of you. Thank you so much. Technology. It is pretty ingenious, right? But make no mistake, capitalism is hard at work in these bot relationships.

27:01Unlike a human therapist who charges a fee and is bound by privacy laws, the companies that build these bots are making money off of you in multiple ways. Obviously, they want you to upgrade to a paid subscription. But also, as the nonprofit Mozilla discovered, as soon as you log on, thousands of trackers, an average of 2 ,600 a minute, go to work, gathering all kinds of information about you. Including, of course, any of those intimate thoughts you share with your bot. And Mozilla found that most of these companies say they can share your information with the government or law enforcement without requiring a court order.

27:45But they don't take responsibility for any avatars who may become abusive, show you violent content, or suggest that you harm yourself. Because, hey, AI is still sort of in beta, right? At the very best, we are entering an era where we will develop healthier habits, get stronger emotionally and physically with the help of a fleet of artificially intelligent agents. But, as Sherry points out, to get to a point where a person is savvy enough to handle all that empathetic but ultimately fake advice, they need to have lived a little, loved and lost, learned about setting boundaries, sat in companionable silence with someone, just feeling each other's physical presence.

28:42We are bodies that can't always express ourselves with words. Sometimes it's a look, a gesture, a stance that speaks volumes. And unlike for these bots, our bodies age and eventually stop working. No bot will ever truly understand that existential reality with which we walk every day. Woo-wee, that was quite a somber ending for an episode. But it is not the end of Body Electric Season 2. Next week, you're going to meet your fellow listener, Michelle from Illinois. She is an extraordinary person, a lawyer who has mobility issues. But she is getting movement breaks into her life in a way that I had never heard before.

29:35Do not miss it. And please keep writing to us in the inbox, sharing your thoughts, questions, ideas. We want to keep this series going and we love getting your input. If you haven't already, sign up for the Body Electric newsletter to stay in the loop. Just go to npr.org slash bodyelectric to sign up. And please talk to me on Instagram. I'm adding all kinds of information, tips, and weird personal videos at Manoush Z. As always, thank you so much for being here. We'll see you next week. This episode was produced by Katie Monteleone and edited by Sanaa Zmeshkinpour. Original music comes from David Herman.

30:16Our audio engineer was Nisha Hines. Special thanks to Colin Campbell, Fiona Guerin, and Arielle Redding. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you've been listening to Body Electric from NPR.

30:31This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S. Get started with your own design studio. Sign up for your$1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor Fixable, a podcast from TED. Hear unfiltered expert advice from CEO Ann Morris and Harvard business professor Francis Fry on how to build, regain, and maintain your confidence. Find Fixable wherever you listen.