In short
Coexistence—how different beings, ideas, and emotions can live side by side, sometimes peacefully and sometimes with conflict.
Guests (backgrounds)
- Philip Johns: biologist and geneticist; studies animal behavior; associate professor at Yale-NUS College.
- Avi Loeb: Harvard astrophysicist; tenured professor; former chair of Harvard astronomy; searches for extraterrestrial technology via the Galileo Project.
- Laurel Braitman: writer; grew up on an avocado ranch; author of What Looks Like Bravery.
Key claims + notable examples
- Singapore’s waterways cleaned up after industrial pollution; otters returned and now coexist with humans despite territorial fights and occasional bites. Example: a rush-hour downtown otter confrontation; also koi fish losses and a “man attacked by a pack of otters” case.
- Loeb argues for evidence-based search for alien artifacts rather than waiting for radio signals. Example: the interstellar object ‘Oumuamua’s unusual acceleration; his “artificial” hypothesis and later “dark comet” explanations.
- Braitman reframes grief and fear as teammates of joy and bravery. Example: learning to let grief and joy coexist after her father’s suicide-assisted death; using grief-support activities and daily practices to stay open to love.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Fascinating World of Urban Otters
1:01 to 5:36
Discover the unique behavior of otters living in Singapore's urban landscape.
“These are the sounds of a family of otters.”
Human-Wildlife Coexistence Challenges
5:36 to 9:50
Explore the conflicts and coexistence between humans and wildlife in Singapore.
“Ideas about what we can do to adapt, make peace with, maybe even find pleasure in conflict.”
The Importance of Nature Connections
9:50 to 12:32
Learn how personal connections with nature can foster coexistence.
“And so people who might start otter watching because they want to get photographs of cute pups might continue to do other things because they've formed a connection with nature.”
Tree Planting for Disaster Recovery
14:00 to 14:35
Learn about the Arbor Day Foundation's efforts in tree planting post-Hurricane Katrina.
“Disaster recovery work involving tree planting can take years to do right.”
Avi Loeb's Background and Research
16:00 to 17:44
Discover Avi Loeb's journey and his quest for extraterrestrial life.
“With other humans, animals, and whatever is out there in space.”
The Search for Extraterrestrial Signals
17:44 to 19:47
Avi discusses the scientific method in searching for evidence of alien life.
“Why go on a quest that to some of his fellow scientists sounds ridiculous?”
The Oumuamua Phenomenon
19:47 to 24:19
Learn about the discovery of Oumuamua and its impact on the search for alien technology.
“And for 70 years, we've been searching for radio signals.”
Public Interest in Alien Life
24:19 to 25:38
Avi shares how public interest has changed his career and led to new projects.
“Because the only way you define a comet is by detecting its cometary tail.”
Continuing the Search for Evidence
25:38 to 28:00
Avi explains the ongoing efforts and technology used to search for extraterrestrial objects.
“Thanks to all this attention, in 2021, Avi co-founded the Galileo Project at Harvard, a research program dedicated to searching for alien technology on and near Earth.”
The Controversy of Public Attention in Science
28:00 to 28:54
Discussion on the challenges faced by scientists in the public eye and the emotional impact of criticism.
“It's polluting good science, conflating the good science we do with this ridiculous sensationalism and sucking all the oxygen out of the room.”
Show all 21 chapters
The Search for Evidence of Extraterrestrial Life
28:54 to 30:21
Exploration of how we could confirm the existence of intelligent life beyond Earth.
“And, you know, I borrowed the approach from the research on dark matter that I worked on early on in my career.”
Shifting Perspectives on Humanity's Place in the Universe
30:21 to 33:17
Reflection on how discovering extraterrestrial life could alter our self-perception.
“What would be the moment where you could tell the rest of the world, Yes, we are not alone.”
Avi Loeb's Insights and Current Research
33:17 to 33:30
Avi Loeb shares his theories on interstellar objects and their implications.
“And we better find other actors that will tell us what the play is about.”
Laurel Braitman's Journey of Understanding
37:18 to 39:29
Laurel Braitman shares her childhood experience and family life lessons.
“On the show today, we are exploring coexistence.”
Navigating Grief and Hope
39:29 to 42:00
Discussion on the impact of her father's illness and the lessons learned.
“And so from that day forward, we lived between scans.”
Navigating Grief and Regret
42:00 to 43:30
The speaker reflects on the last conversation with their father before his death and the feelings of guilt that followed.
“And so that added another sort of dread layer, I'd say, to the everyday where I knew he had this, but I didn't know when he was going to take it.”
Thriving Despite Loss
43:30 to 45:40
The speaker shares their achievements after their father's death and the internal struggles they faced.
“That was your senior year of high school?”
The Burden of Expectations
45:40 to 47:30
Exploring the impact of parental expectations on personal growth and happiness.
“Those feelings were so big, I worried that if I let myself feel them for even a minute, I would never, ever feel anything else again.”
Finding Peace with Emotions
47:30 to 49:38
The speaker discusses the journey of understanding and accepting complex emotions after trauma.
“I mean, what happened was a little bit harder to understand.”
Lessons from Grief Support
49:38 to 51:58
Insights gained from volunteering at a grief support organization for children, and realizing shared pain.
“Just because you feel regret does not necessarily mean you should have acted differently.”
Embracing Coexistence of Emotions
51:58 to 54:05
The speaker learns to accept the coexistence of joy and grief in life experiences.
“So like I have this thing that I can't add someone to my favorites list on my phone or something terrible will happen to them.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Avi Loeb:This message comes from Middlesex County, New Jersey. Here's why companies are actually making the move to Middlesex County, New Jersey. It's ranked in the top 2 % of U.S. counties for talent and knowledge creation and is more innovative than 98 % of the nation. The opportunity is real and it's right here. Visit biz.discovermiddlesex.com to set up a meeting with a business advisor today. This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks. Our job now is to dream big. Delivered at TED conferences. To bring about the future we want to see. Around the world. To understand who we are.
0:37Avi Loeb:From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.
0:42Laurel Braitman:You just don't know what you're going to find.
0:44Avi Loeb:Challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy? And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading. From TED and NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. These are the sounds of a family of otters. They're in a river, some adults with their pups, chattering and playing. And then they start to form sort of a line, a chain of otters, corralling the small fish swimming amongst them.
1:25Laurel Braitman:They herd fish with their pups. They technically corral them because they're often corralling them against a fixed surface like the side of a canal.
1:32Avi Loeb:This is Philip Johns. He's a biologist and geneticist who studies animal behavior like those in these otters.
1:41Laurel Braitman:And I think what's going on is the pups are following really simple rules that might go, swim next to mom, if there's a fish in front of me, eat it. And the adults are coordinating things through their vocalizations. So, you know, there's one vocalization that somebody's saying that's like, OK, dive, you know, here we go. And they all dive together. That's really cool.
2:08Avi Loeb:Otter behavior is, of course, fascinating. But what's more surprising, perhaps, is where exactly these otters are. Not off the Pacific coast or in North American rivers. These otters are living and thriving in the middle of one of the busiest, most modern cities in the world, Singapore.
2:31Laurel Braitman:It's got this crazy, enormous architecture, and it is kind of a city in a jungle.
2:37Avi Loeb:A city-state home to 6 million people and all kinds of high-tech companies, all surrounded by trees and waterways. And because of this geography, the city is a mix of steel and glass skyscrapers and wildlife.
2:54Laurel Braitman:Some of that wildlife is extremely charismatic. We have pied hornbills, these birds with really, really large bills. We have things like flying lizards. They're in the genus Draco. We have Colugos, which is one of my favorite. These strange nocturnal and gliding mammals. And then there are tons of snakes in Singapore. Some of them are quite beautiful. I remember when one of my early outings, somebody said, oh yeah, when you walk over there, just keep your eyes open because there's a cobra that hangs out around there. Yesterday, I was walking home and, you know, I walk home between these brand new giant condos.
3:32Laurel Braitman:You know, they're over 30 floors high. They're glass and steel. And I look up and there's a white-bellied sea eagle, you know, this very large bird circling one of the condos. And it's just incredible because it's kind of like this juxtaposition of nature and modernity.
3:47Avi Loeb:Which brings us back to the otters that live here too. The Asian small-clawed otter and the more common and larger smooth-coated otter.
3:59Laurel Braitman:This is a really social species of otter. They have multiple broods that live with the dominant pair, the matriarch and the patriarch. And so you might have a family of 20 animals. And this might be, you know, three successive broods of offspring that are still living with the parents.
4:15Avi Loeb:Harmonious, large families of otters sound lovely. But here's the problem with all these otter families prospering side by side.
4:25Laurel Braitman:They defend territories. They defend them violently. They fight. And the fights are injurious. You know, otters get hurt. Sometimes otters get killed. It's not pleasant to watch.
4:36Avi Loeb:Philip remembers one particular beef between two otter families that played out downtown.
4:42Laurel Braitman:And by right downtown, I mean right downtown at rush hour. The otters would swim toward each other and they're screaming at each other and they're swimming around. They're biting and the water is beat to a froth. And you look on the banks and there are literally thousands, tens of thousands of people who are on their way to work, you know, walking along the banks of the rivers. And it's just incredibly dramatic.
5:06Avi Loeb:Every day we hear about nations, different groups of people struggling to get along. Humanity seems unable to overcome its differences. But what can we learn from more unusual examples of strange bedfellows? How are different species or provocative scientific ideas, maybe even conflicting emotions, finding ways to live in harmony? Today on the show, coexistence. Ideas about what we can do to adapt, make peace with, maybe even find pleasure in conflict. When biologist Philip Johns first arrived in Singapore, he learned that this wasn't the first time that rowdy families of otters had made their home there.
5:56Laurel Braitman:All of this was just incredible to me.
5:58Avi Loeb:Here he is on the TED stage.
6:00Laurel Braitman:And part of the reason it was incredible to everybody is that the otters were returning after a long absence. So we know that there were otters in Singapore sometime before the mid-20th century. But then Singapore started to change. It modernized, it started to industrialize, and all of a sudden the waterways got filthy. What happened was they started to fill with sludge, industrial pollution, and dead animals to the point where they stank. And otters live in water. They eat fish in water. And they couldn't eat and live in waterways that were that dirty. So they left. But things changed again.
6:39Laurel Braitman:Singapore enacted policies to clean up their waterways. And they were really, really successful. So all of a sudden, instead of having waterways that were filled with filth, we had waterways that were filled with fish. And from the otters' points of view, they were feeding troughs. So they came back. and now we have lots of otters all over Singapore.
6:59Avi Loeb:How many otters are we talking here? Are we talking like you turn a corner and you look at water and there's an otter there?
7:05Laurel Braitman:Yeah, the otters live in the waterways and the waterways typically have some kind of park around them. I think they're probably 20 families and if you're an otter, being an otter is pretty cool in Singapore because you wake up, you fish, you roll around in the dirt, you play, and then you go back to sleep. And it's kind of awesome. And so I can be on one side of the river, looking across the river, watching a family of otters do its thing through binoculars or a camera. And they're absolutely unfazed.
7:38Avi Loeb:So they don't take any mind of you. But I have to ask you, like, if you put in the words otter and Singapore, there's some crazy headlines that come up.
7:49Laurel Braitman:Yeah. So not all the interactions have been benign. There have been a very few incidences where the otters have bitten people. And I think all of those were cases where either somebody was behaving unwisely or where the otters had pups. And when otters have young pups, they become defensive. They're less likely to be sort of sanguine about people getting close to them.
8:15Avi Loeb:Yeah, because I have to say, especially the British press seems to love picking up stories like this one. Man attacked by a pack of otters in a Singapore park said he thought he was going to die.
8:28Laurel Braitman:He suffered 26 wounds on his buttocks, legs and fingers while on his usual 6 a.m. walk in Singapore. That case, as I understand it, was a case where the man was very close to a group of otters. And it was a big family. And another man jogged directly through the group of otters. And in this case, the guy who got bit, it was kind of an innocent bystander. But the otters got confused. You know, it's hard to think of a situation where running through a group of wild animals is acceptable. And the otters aren't small. They can hurt somebody. So that's been one issue, and it has been an issue. And otters also have eaten a lot of fish.
9:12Avi Loeb:In a private home and killed more than 50 fish.
9:15Laurel Braitman:You know, people keep fish in Singapore. People keep koi, and these koi are large, they're expensive, they're long-lived, they're pets. And when I say expensive, I mean a koi pond might have tens of thousands of dollars of koi in it. Those kinds of human-wildlife conflicts are things that we can't kind of sweep away. We have to be realistic about them. But within that context, I think there's room for people and animals to coexist, even in someplace that's as urban as Singapore. And so people who might start otter watching because they want to get photographs of cute pups might continue to do other things because they've formed a connection with nature.
9:59Laurel Braitman:And we see this all the time, that people care about nature when they form some connection to nature. Whether that connection is to otters, or to a pair of hornbills on campus, or to a bird that visits them on their balcony. We need these personal connections, and we see them all over the place. Singapore has enacted a lot of policies that make these kinds of connections a lot easier. There are over 300 parks and nature reserves. Singapore has a plan that no one should be more than 10 minutes away from some kind of park. One of the effects of this is that people will have more chances to interact with nature, and they'll have more chances to care.
10:40Laurel Braitman:I think we're trying to get away from something where nature is over there on the other side of a fence or a wall or something like that. Nature is something that's around us and above us and beside us, and that's true in lots of places, including in cities. So I think this also raises other questions, such as, can cities be wildlife refuges? Is this something that we can protect and maybe foster and grow?
11:07Avi Loeb:As cities grow and there are more humans on the planet and we spread and take more space, what are some of the lessons that other city dwellers or urban planners can take from how humans and otters are figuring out ways to coexist?
11:28Laurel Braitman:We have to be realistic that we can accommodate all wildlife, I think. Having said that, we can be remarkably accepting of a lot of wildlife. You know, one of the most amazing things to me was the mountain lion that lived in Griffith Park in Los Angeles for years. And, you know, not everybody is thrilled about it. And there's good reason to be concerned about having a large wild cat living inside the city of Los Angeles. But I think for the most part, people were kind of proud of it. If you go to social media sites of people who have things like camera traps in their backyard, a lot of people are thrilled that they have bobcats periodically in their backyard or that they're coyotes that come and visit in their backyard.
12:11Laurel Braitman:And again, there is the potential for human wildlife conflict. Coyotes eat a lot of cats and dogs. You know, we have to be clear-eyed about that. But I think in many cases, we can make some very modest concessions. And when we do, coexistence is certainly possible. and it's maybe something that can be encouraged. So, you know, that's my hope. It really is kind of wonderful to do things like walk to work and see gliding lizards, seeing lizards that are literally gliding from tree to tree. So cool. Right. You know, just amazing things like this. Or to see, you know, eagles flying among the skyscrapers.
12:50Laurel Braitman:You know, just crazy things like that. You know, if familiarity breeds empathy, then I think it helps us to have more familiarity.
13:01Avi Loeb:That was Philip Johns. He is a biologist and associate professor at the Yale National University of Singapore College. You can watch his full talk at TED.com. On the show today, ideas about coexistence. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. We'll be right back.
13:35Avi Loeb:This message comes from the Arbor Day Foundation, planting trees with intention and scale to support a greener future. For more than 50 years, the Arbor Day Foundation has connected local experts with the support they need from passionate people and companies who care to plant trees in communities and forests around the world. They use data and mapping to ensure they're focusing efforts in high-priority areas where trees will make the most impact, like places affected by natural disasters. Disaster recovery work involving tree planting can take years to do right. In the two decades after Hurricane Katrina, the Arbor Day Foundation has planted hundreds of thousands of trees in response.
14:16Avi Loeb:And the work continues to this day as the foundation is working with partners on the ground in New Orleans Lower Ninth Ward to help rebuild a greener community through trees. Most recently, they've brought that same spirit to Los Angeles, planting at several sites throughout the city impacted by the Eaton Fire. Learn more and see how you can support their work at arborday.org slash NPR.
Read the full transcript
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15:24Laurel Braitman:Call, click Grainger.com, or just stop by. This message comes from WTTW. Join Jeffrey Baer as he tells the story of how railroads shaped Chicago. Riding the Rails with Jeffrey Baer premieres April 13th at 7 p.m. on WTTW.
15:44Avi Loeb:It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
15:47Philip Johns:One, two, three, four, five. Can you hear me?
15:50Avi Loeb:I'm Manoush Zomorodi. Hi, Avi.
15:52Philip Johns:Hi, good to speak with you.
15:54Avi Loeb:And you, and you. Today on the show, coexistence. It sounds like it's clicking in and out a little bit.
16:00Philip Johns:Okay, let me see. Maybe the connection here. With other humans, animals, and whatever is out there in space.
16:09Avi Loeb:Would you mind just introducing yourself? Tell us your name and what you do.
16:15Philip Johns:My name is Avi Loeb, and I have the privilege of being a scientist, meaning that I can follow my childhood curiosity without pretending to be the adult in the room.
16:26Avi Loeb:If you know a lot about astrophysics, then you know who Avi Loeb is. For the past four decades, he has been a leader in the field.
16:36Philip Johns:I'm a tenured professor at Harvard University, and I was also chair of the astronomy department at Harvard for nine years.
16:44Avi Loeb:Avi has published over a thousand scientific papers on black holes and how the first stars and galaxies formed.
16:52Philip Johns:I've been the director of the Institute for Theory and Computation at Harvard. I was the founding director of Harvard's Black Hole Initiative.
17:00Avi Loeb:He's written nine books.
17:01Philip Johns:I chaired the board of physics and astronomy of the National Academies. I chaired the advisory board for the Breakthrough Starshot Initiative. Yeah, he's a big deal.
17:11Avi Loeb:But over the last decade or so, he has put that reputation in jeopardy by searching for something else in the cosmos.
17:21Philip Johns:I think it will be the biggest discovery in science ever made in terms of its impact on the future of humanity.
17:30Avi Loeb:Signs of life.
17:31Philip Johns:We are searching for artifacts that may have been manufactured by extraterrestrial civilizations.
17:38Avi Loeb:That's right. Avi is looking for aliens.
17:43Philip Johns:Yes, that's my latest hobby.
17:46Avi Loeb:But why? Why go on a quest that to some of his fellow scientists sounds ridiculous?
17:53Philip Johns:You know, one reason I search for higher intelligence in interstellar space is because I don't often find it here on Earth.
18:01Avi Loeb:As far as Avi is concerned, the scientific method requires us to ask questions and seek answers. So why is he doing this? He says, why not? But exploring the possibility of extraterrestrial life has created a huge rift between him and many of his colleagues. They are questioning whether his ideas should even exist within their scientific community, just as Avi wonders whether we humans coexist with other life forms.
18:36Philip Johns:Space is vast. It's measured in tens of thousands of light years just within the Milky Way galaxy alone. So to imagine, you know, there are other beings like us on similar rocks far away is very natural.
18:51Avi Loeb:I mean, you're right. Everyone, we love to watch movies about other beings that might be out there in the universe. We love to think about this idea that we might not be alone. It is fascinating to people. And you are saying, well, you know, let's use the science to see if there is a way that it might be. Sure.
19:17Philip Johns:Exactly. Let's use the scientific method, which is basically let's not imagine anything the way Hollywood does. Let's not assume anything. To make progress, we need to collect data. And, you know, new knowledge does not fall into our lap. And so you have to put effort, money, time in order to design instruments that will detect those very challenging signals.
19:47Avi Loeb:Here's Avi Loeb on the TED stage.
20:16on evidence, not based on prejudice.
20:20Philip Johns:And for 70 years, we've been searching for radio signals. This is equivalent to staying at home and waiting for a phone call that may never come, because nobody cares that we are lonely. A much better approach is to check if there is any object in our backyard that may have arrived from a neighbor's yard. Like a tennis ball that may tell us that the neighbor plays tennis. People often say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but they are not seeking the evidence. So let's just look around.
21:08Avi Loeb:To understand why Avi began his search for alien life, we need to go back to 2017. when scientists spotted a strange object in the sky.
21:19Philip Johns:This was an object called Oumuamua, which means a scout in the Hawaiian language. It was discovered by a telescope named the Pan-STARRS in Hawaii on Mount Haleakala.
21:31Avi Loeb:Oumuamua was unlike anything Avi and other astrophysicists had ever seen before. And it raised a lot of questions, namely, what was it and where did it come from?
21:42Philip Johns:At first, you know, we just knew that this is an object from outside the solar system because it moved too fast to be bound by gravity to the sun. And so it was clear beyond any doubt that it came from outside the solar system. So everyone assumed that it must be an asteroid or a comet, the type of objects we find within the solar system, rocks or icy rocks. But there was no cometary tail.
22:11Avi Loeb:Even more perplexing was the way that the object moved through space.
22:16Philip Johns:The object showed a push away from the sun by some mysterious force. And so it's as if there was something pushing it away from the sun. It's a non-gravitational acceleration. But there was no cometary evaporation, no gas or dust around it. So the question was, what is exerting this force on the object?
22:38Avi Loeb:Scientists looked for an explanation. any explanation.
22:42Philip Johns:You know, some of my colleagues argued, maybe you can explain these anomalies by imagining a hydrogen iceberg, a chunk of frozen hydrogen. So then someone has said, well, maybe it's a nitrogen iceberg. And then someone has said, well, maybe it's a dust bunny.
22:56Avi Loeb:But Avi wasn't convinced. He suggested another hypothesis, that perhaps Oumuamua was not naturally occurring. Perhaps it was produced by something or someone from another planet. Perhaps it was alien technology.
23:14Philip Johns:And just the suggestion that it might be artificial got me into trouble because I was not supposed to consider that possibility. How dare you even think about that? It's a rock of a type that we've never seen before, period.
23:29Avi Loeb:Avi published a paper about his hypothesis, which launched a slew of criticism from his colleagues, who said that he was leaping to the conclusion that Oumuamua was proof of aliens without exhausting every other possibility.
23:45Philip Johns:All of the alternative explanations had issues. And I just said, let's keep the artificial origin on the table because we are producing space trash and other civilizations might have done the same.
23:58Avi Loeb:Then in 2023, two scientists published a paper in Nature with a new explanation for Oumuamua, that it was simply a comet with no tail. Scientists now call this a dark comet, an object that moves like a comet but looks like an asteroid. The explanation does not satisfy Avi.
24:22Philip Johns:Because the only way you define a comet is by detecting its cometary tail. That's what a comet is. So if you say that an elephant is an unstriped zebra, you know, that sounds strange because it's not the same animal. OK, and so my point is, when you don't see a cometary tail, don't call it a comet.
24:44Avi Loeb:In 2024, researchers found more objects that move like comets but look more like asteroids, calling them dark comets. By now, most scientists have moved on from the Oumuamua debate. But the public has not. Ever since his suggestion that Oumuamua could be a sign of alien life, Avi has gotten more attention and funding from people outside the world of astrophysics. He may have lost favor with his colleagues, but he's gained a whole new audience.
25:16Philip Johns:Yes, on the one hand, the public really was extremely fascinated by this possibility, and I got a huge amount of attention from the media, something that I was not familiar with before. And I was also contacted by a literary agent to write a book, which ended up being extraterrestrial, became bestseller. And I participated in about 3 ,500 podcast interviews. Netflix is producing a documentary.
25:47Avi Loeb:Thanks to all this attention, in 2021, Avi co-founded the Galileo Project at Harvard, a research program dedicated to searching for alien technology on and near Earth. Avi and his team have received millions of dollars in private funding from a long list of uber-wealthy donors.
26:07Philip Johns:We built an observatory at Harvard University. It's a unique observatory. Usually astronomical observatories are focusing on a small portion of the sky and looking at very distant sources. But here we are looking at the entire sky all the time, and in particular searching for objects near Earth that are just overhead. And we are using infrared cameras, optical cameras, radio sensors, audio sensors, and analyzing the data with machine learning software, using state-of-the-art algorithms to figure out if there are any objects that are not familiar. are. I'm not trying to imagine what might be out there.
26:52Philip Johns:I'm just saying we know about birds, we know about airplanes, leaves, clouds, satellites, balloons, drones. These are things we know about. And is there anything else? And if we find an object that is maneuvering in ways that does not mimic the flight characteristics of known objects, we will write a paper about it and share it with the scientific community. And for me, having more data is really a bliss because once you have a lot of data, it will become clear whether we're dealing with a rock of a type that we've never seen before or maybe some artificial object. And at some point, it would be impossible to ignore it.
27:40Avi Loeb:There are probably going to be people listening who are saying, why, and these are scientists on Earth right now, who would say, why are you giving Avilob the mic? You have become a bit of a pariah in your field. I want to quote one astrophysicist, Steve Desch, who said, people are sick of hearing about Avilob's wild claims. It's polluting good science, conflating the good science we do with this ridiculous sensationalism and sucking all the oxygen out of the room. There's a lot of ire towards you, a field that embraced you for the longest time. And now what's it like having them call you names?
28:22Philip Johns:Yeah, I really don't like that. But one thing I learned is that, you know, if you don't want to get dirty, don't mud wrestle. So I don't respond to those. I am still the director of the Institute for Theory and Computation. I work with students. I work with postdocs. I just gave a lecture at the Black Hole Initiative about primordial black holes. So I continue to work on other subjects as well. And the people who know me, you know, are very supportive because they know that I'm doing it not out of any other reason than advocating for something I believe in that should be studied. And, you know, I borrowed the approach from the research on dark matter that I worked on early on in my career.
29:12Philip Johns:You know, we don't know what 85 % of the matter in the universe is. So billions of dollars are spent on the searches for dark matter. Specific types of particles that were proposed by theorists like myself were very much rewarded by attention and so forth. So I have that experience. And for me, it's no different. But for some reason, this particular subject is making some people very upset. And those are people who are upset about the public attention that I'm getting. You know, when I gave my class at Harvard, in the opening lecture, I asked the students, what is the strongest force in academia?
29:54Philip Johns:Is it gravity? Is it electromagnetism? They were quiet, and then I answered the question myself. I said, no, it's jealousy.
30:06Avi Loeb:Ha! Can I ask you, how would you know? You've given us several examples of all the data and specimens that you're collecting and sort of sifting through all of this. How will you know for sure? What would be the moment where you could tell the rest of the world, Yes, we are not alone. We are coexisting with something else that is alive.
30:34Philip Johns:Well, that's relatively straightforward if you have good enough data. For example, if we had an image of an interstellar object and you see bolts and screws and you see that it looks like a technological object, there is no doubt that it's not a rock, that would be clear evidence.
30:54Avi Loeb:Let's say this did happen. How would it change things for us? You must have imagined this scenario in your mind.
31:04Philip Johns:Yes, I think it will change our perspective because, you know, when you find a partner, it changes the meaning of your existence. We know that from our personal lives. And here I'm just talking about finding a partner in the global scheme of the cosmos. these are all the Earth-Sun systems. You know, there are hundreds of billions of them in the Milky Way galaxy alone. We see so many houses like our own. And to me, it's very natural to imagine that there are residents that we can learn from. So just paying attention to our cosmic neighborhood, you know, will allow us to mature and realize that what we usually care about is not as important as the bigger scheme of things.
31:52Philip Johns:And we could do better by paying attention to our neighbors. When I look up at the sky at night, I see 100 billion stars of the Milky Way galaxy. They look like lights in cabins of a giant spaceship, the Milky Way, sailing through space. And I wonder if there are other passengers in those cabins. There are a hundred billion of them comparable to the number of people who ever lived on earth. It would be arrogant to think otherwise, that we are alone, that we are unique and special. especially if you read the news every day, we are not the pinnacle of creation. There is room for improvement. And so the next Copernican revolution would be that we are not at the intellectual center of the universe.
32:59Philip Johns:Not only that we are not at the physical center of the universe, but actually, you know, we arrived to the play relatively late. We are not at the center of stage. the play is not about us. We should be modest. We keep thinking that it's about us, but it's not. And we better find other actors that will tell us what the play is about.
33:26Avi Loeb:That was astrophysicist Avi Loeb. He is a professor of science at Harvard University's Department of Astronomy. Since we spoke, Avi has put out similar theories about another interstellar object called 3-I Atlas, which was discovered in 2025. It is still being studied, but for now, NASA and the majority of the scientific community maintain that its origins are natural, not alien. You can see Avi Loeb's fulltalk at TED.com. On the show today, coexistence. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Stay with us.
34:15Avi Loeb:This message comes from Middlesex County, New Jersey. Have you ever given Middlesex County, New Jersey a look? You probably should. It's got everything your business needs to thrive. Talent, customers, innovation, and opportunity. You don't need to be in the biggest city to be the biggest business. Middlesex County has a world-class workforce, access to global markets, plus 40 % of the U.S. population within a day's drive. It's basically the everything bagel of the business world. Visit biz.discovermiddlesex.com to learn more.
35:00Avi Loeb:This message comes from Middlesex County, New Jersey. If you've been thinking about where to grow your business next, Middlesex County, New Jersey should be on your shortlist. It's got a world-class workforce, easy access to U.S. and global markets, and one of the most resilient supply chains in the country. Add 40 % of the U.S. population within a day's drive, and you've got every advantage in one place. Visit biz.discovermiddlesex.com to set up a meeting with a business advisor today.
35:38Avi Loeb:This message comes from Middlesex County, New Jersey. Ever wonder where innovation really happens? Not just in Silicon Valley or Boston, but somewhere that's got real access and affordability? Try Middlesex County, New Jersey on for size. With industry talent, solid infrastructure, and 40 % of the U.S. population within a day's drive, it's got everything your business needs. You could call it the everything bagel of the business world. Visit biz.discovermittlesex.com to see why businesses that move here thrive here.
36:13Laurel Braitman:This message comes from Grainger. For the ones who get it done, Grainger offers the professional-grade products you need to get the job done. with fast delivery and access to technical product experts ready to help you meet any challenge. Call, clickgrainger.com, or just stop by. This message comes from WTTW. Join Jeffrey Baer as he tells the story of how railroads shaped Chicago. Riding the Rails with Jeffrey Baer premieres April 13th at 7 p.m. on WTTW. Support for this podcast and the following message come from E-Trade from Morgan Stanley. simplify your finances and discover the convenience of investing in banking all in one place plus get up to fifteen hundred dollars when you open a brokerage account with a qualifying deposit today learn more at etrade.com slash offer banking products and services are provided by morgan stanley private bank national association member fdic terms and other fees apply investing involves risks.
37:13Laurel Braitman:Morgan Stanley, Smith Barney, LLC. Member SIPIC.
37:17Avi Loeb:It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. On the show today, we are exploring coexistence. And our next speaker tells us the story of her family, a warning we do talk about suicide.
37:33Laurel Braitman:We really can't have happiness without sadness. We can't have joy without pain. We also cannot have bravery without fear. instead of being opposites, those things are teammates.
37:47Avi Loeb:It took writer Laurel Braitman decades to understand this lesson. But the seeds were planted in her childhood. Quite literally, she grew up on an avocado ranch outside of Los Angeles.
38:01Laurel Braitman:We are about 20 miles inland in a really gorgeous canyon that is lined with fruit orchards. So you can often smell avocados blooming or lemon trees blooming.
38:17Avi Loeb:Her earliest memories are of her parents teaching her and her brother how to work on the ranch.
38:22Laurel Braitman:You know, pulling out orchards that were failing and planting new orchards, rebuilding the main ranch house, restoring the corrals, and really just rehabbing the landscape in a lot of ways. We helped spread fertilizer and prune, and we would just kind of take breaks and play and then come back and help them.
38:42Avi Loeb:Alongside those farming chores, Laurel's father also taught them some other life lessons.
38:49Laurel Braitman:But they were really specific skills to like what my dad cared about. So like all the member nations of the UN, how the Dewey Decimal System worked. He really wanted me to like beat men at things that were stereotypically male. That was like a thing, a point of pride. So he wanted me to be able to, like, outfish any guy who might dare underestimate me or repair a carburetor or be really good at pool.
39:15Avi Loeb:These were skills he wanted to pass on because when Laurel was three years old, her father was diagnosed with bone cancer. It started in his knee, then metastasized and spread to other parts of his body.
39:30Laurel Braitman:And so from that day forward, we lived between scans. So sometimes we would get, you know, six months. Sometimes we would have six weeks. The longest we ever had before he had a recurrence was about four and a half, five years. Oh, wow. So that was a great period of time. But that's how we lived. We tried to fit as much life and memory making and togetherness into those periods of time between therapy or surgery or treatment or scan.
40:01Avi Loeb:So for most of her childhood, Laurel grew up with a constant feeling of dread, knowing that every one of those lessons and memory-making moments was her father's attempt to make the most of the time he had left.
40:19Laurel Braitman:So another thing my dad did was that he taught himself how to be a beekeeper. And he knew that ancient Egyptians had used honey to treat wounds and for other medical applications. It's a really good natural antibiotic. And because of that, honey that the Egyptians put away is still good. Like in some cases, thousands of years later. So he started putting away a lot of honey, like buckets and buckets of honey. And he knew that the honey would outlive him. And I think he hoped that, you know, we would stir it into our coffee or our tea long after he was gone. And we would think of him and we would know how much he loved us.
41:02Laurel Braitman:He was so scared and heartbroken that he was going to have to leave us before we were ready, before he was ready. Amazingly, he lived 14 years with this disease. So he outlived his prognosis many, many times over. And, you know, he always used to tell us, like, when I can't enjoy life with you and your mom and your brother, I'm going to die. And then I was a junior in high school, and I found a pill bottle. And there was a little note tied around it. there was dosage instructions on the note. And I kind of immediately knew what it was. Suddenly everything clicked into place and I realized my dad had a lethal prescription.
41:49Laurel Braitman:You know, right to die medication was not legal in California, though, at the time. And so I knew I wasn't supposed to know about this. And so I just wrapped it up and I put it back in the cabinet And then I never spoke of it again. And so that added another sort of dread layer, I'd say, to the everyday where I knew he had this, but I didn't know when he was going to take it. And he didn't know when he was going to take it. Tell us how it finally happened. About six months later, he and I got into a terrible fight on the phone. I wasn't at home and I had called home and he was hassling me about my college applications of all things.
42:35Laurel Braitman:They were due in a few weeks and he was telling me I had to get them in and, you know, I was a surly teenager, you know. And I yelled at him and I was like, I don't know why you're giving me such a hard time. Like I was so mad and I hung up on him. And as I was hanging the phone back in the cradle, I could hear him say strongly through the phone, I love you. And I was just like, I am not saying that back. He needs to know he's being unreasonable. And I slammed the phone down. And unbeknownst to me, that was the last time we would talk. And the reason he was hassling me was because he knew he was going to take his medical aid in dying medication.
43:15Laurel Braitman:And he knew I was going to be upset and not be able to apply to college. And he wanted to make sure I did it. And by the time I got home, a few hours later, he had taken his medication and he was unconscious and I would never hear his voice again. That was your senior year of high school?
43:35Avi Loeb:Yeah, I was 17.
43:39Avi Loeb:I mean, it's kind of amazing what happened next. You, at least on the face of it, absolutely thrived. You went to Cornell University. You played Division I sports after being an All-American lacrosse player. You were class president. You were a summa cum laude. You wrote bestselling books. Like, you went to MIT for a PhD. Like, you, again, on the face of it, did your father proud.
44:10Laurel Braitman:Yeah, you know, I did. You know, in the wake of his death, I felt so guilty. I lived with a crushing sense of guilt that, you know, someone who was good would not have hung up on her dying father, would have said she loved him. Here was somebody who had sacrificed everything for time to teach me things, you know, like how to beat a man at pool. I felt because of that, that when it really mattered, I had let him down. And so I took his dreams for me. And rather than seeing them as like a parent's dreams for their child, like I took them as a literal to-do list. And I went down the list and I was like, okay, he wanted this for me.
44:55Laurel Braitman:I'm going to do this. He wanted that. He didn't get to see this place. I'm going to make sure I get to see this place. And I really approached his dreams for me as like marching orders. I dealt with his death by doubling down on the things he wanted for me. And then in my mid-30s, I realized I was just completely exhausted. Laurel Braitman continues from the TED stage. I had been living my entire adult life in a way to prove to myself that I was good. I was using achievement and all of the shiny things that come along with it as a way of anesthetizing my own bad feelings of shame, regret, and fear.
45:41Laurel Braitman:Those feelings were so big, I worried that if I let myself feel them for even a minute, I would never, ever feel anything else again. But you cannot kill negative feelings, sadly, with work and avoidance.
46:01Laurel Braitman:And mine came back with a jolt. On the outside, I was successful and thriving. And on the inside, I was anxious, terrified, and questioning my worth. by avoiding all of the negative feelings. I was muting the fantastic ones too. I was so scared about missing out and losing more of the best things in life, joy, awe, love, wonder, that I couldn't even let myself experience them. I needed to find a new way to be. I wanted to find a new way to be. I had learned that when a young person has a trauma, they can get stuck developmentally at that age of whatever age you were when the hard thing happened.
46:50Laurel Braitman:So I was kind of like, you know, a Pleistocene aunt in amber, but as a 17-year-old. So I got sort of developmentally stuck in some ways at 17, and I felt like I needed some help moving past that and opening myself up
47:06Avi Loeb:to feeling everything. I mean, how did you come to that realization? Because you say it took you years to understand that your father expected himself to be superhuman. And by extension, you too. How did you figure out that, like, I mean, that could be the end of the story. And my father died and I took everything he taught me and I had this amazing life, but, you know.
47:29Laurel Braitman:Yeah, if only. I mean, what happened was a little bit harder to understand. And I reached the end of the list. And I wasn't happy. Immediately, you know, what I noticed kind of first was that it was getting really, really hard for me to be in relationships. And I really wanted to be in love. And I wanted partnership. And when I got close to people, I got really uncomfortable. I think I was just, you know, scared. To this day, I hate falling in love. You know, it's terrible to love anyone or anything because it can be taken from you. So I did a bunch of stuff. I interviewed a ton of grief specialists and therapists.
48:19Laurel Braitman:But what hit me the hardest was becoming a volunteer at a grief support organization for kids. So many of them thought they were bad, too. they'd been out of the room playing when their mom died, or they'd said something in anger to an ill parent that they regretted. And I could so clearly see that the painful things that happened to these kids were not their fault. For the first time, I was able to see that that was probably true for me, too. By blaming themselves, the kids were making their losses make sense. even though it hurt to blame themselves, it gave them a reason for the terrible thing that happened, like losing someone they love for no reason at all.
49:10Laurel Braitman:Maybe some of you can relate. Often, when we feel difficult things, we blame ourselves because it's easier than admitting we have no control. That's what I had been doing for the 25 years since my dad died. But just because you feel guilt and shame does not mean you did something wrong. Just because you feel regret does not necessarily mean you should have acted differently. It sounds very simple, and it is very hard to accept. But life is nothing except one long sushi conveyor belt of things that are going to test you and teach you at the same time.
50:03Avi Loeb:What struck you about the way these kids were processing or dealing with losing someone in their life that was different from what you had gone through?
50:13Laurel Braitman:At a center like this, the kids are around other kids who have had similar experiences and was a really powerful thing for me to watch. One activity we would do is, you know, draw your grief. And I remember sitting next to one child who was drawing a sneaker wave of grief, kind of like a tsunami. And I remember them getting pretty sad explaining it. And then two seconds later, like they're on the jungle gym, you know, shrieking with joy. And watching that really affected me profoundly because I realized I could do the same for myself. That the hard things could live alongside my joy. That I could be working and I could take a beat and I could let myself have a moment and then I could get right back into it.
51:08Avi Loeb:But what did happy, sad, or this coexistence of two vastly different emotions, or we think of them as being vastly different, what did that look like for you?
51:19Laurel Braitman:I had to learn how to do it. I think I saw the depth of my despair, and it scared me so much that I needed to bury it. And it really wasn't until I realized that that grief that I had tried to lock away and that was masquerading as self-doubt and as shame and guilt was going to keep me from what I wanted most in life, which is to love other people well and to be of service and to connect with people and places and things. But I will say it's like a daily practice and it comes up in the damnedest ways. So like I have this thing that I can't add someone to my favorites list on my phone or something terrible will happen to them.
52:08Laurel Braitman:And I finally like, I think we'd been married for like a year. I like finally added my husband to my favorites list on my iPhone and was like, you can do this or it's going to be fine. And guess what? He is still with us. You know, I live in an area too, for example, where wildfires are now a constant threat and I have to make peace with that, you know. So I was so scared that if I hung the things I loved on the wall, that they would burn down, that I, you know, it would slow me down from grabbing them as I left the house, you know. So this is a daily, daily practice where I have to live with the anxiety and the fear and somehow let my enjoyment and pleasure find a way in around it and through it.
52:56Avi Loeb:That was bestselling author Laurel Braitman. Her latest book is called What Looks Like Bravery, An Epic Journey Through Loss to Love. You can see her talks at TED.com. By the way, in 2017, a wildfire did reach Laurel's childhood home. The ranch burned down, and she lost many of the structures her father had built to pass on. But...
53:24Laurel Braitman:Miraculously, the chicken coop survived, which was incredible. And a few other things, including one small shed. and I was going through it and we found a bucket of honey, like a five-gallon bucket of honey. And it was fine. It wasn't even smoky. You know, even in the wake of, like, the devastation of the wildfire, the million other kinds of losses that come for us and had come for me, the honey itself was just perfect, as if it had just been poured in the bucket yesterday. And so now, you know, I don't have any family photos left or very few,
54:09Avi Loeb:but I have honey. If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Thank you so much for listening to our show today. This episode was produced by James De La Housie, Katie Monteleone, and Harsha Nahada. It was edited by Sanaa Zmeshkenpour, Rachel Faulkner-White, and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes Fiona Guerin and Matthew Cloutier. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Our audio engineers were Jimmy Keely, Becky Brown, and Zoe Vangenhoven. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Erablui. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hilash, Alejandra Salazar, and Daniela Ballarezzo.
54:59Avi Loeb:I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. This message comes from Middlesex County, New Jersey. If you've been thinking about where to grow your business next, Middlesex County, New Jersey should be on your shortlist. It's got a world-class workforce, easy access to U.S. and global markets, and one of the most resilient supply chains in the country. Add 40 % of the U.S. population within a day's drive, and you've got every advantage in one place. Visit biz.discovermittlesex.com to set up a meeting with a business advisor today.
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