Going incognito, where nothing is as it seems

26:44That's something I've been really obsessed with for a very long time now. And it's an incredibly beautiful feeling on stage when I can sing into a microphone and I can rumble an entire auditorium with a huge kind of like engulfing sub bass that I've mapped to my voice. That's a really wonderful and beautiful, empowering feeling. So I think it can be really transformative in that way.

27:13That's artist Holly Herndon. If you want to hear what else Holly can do with her voice and computers, you can find all her music online, like this track chorus from her album Proto. You can, of course, watch her full talk at TED.com.

27:37So you may not realize it, but there are companies that go incognito. So that they can smoothly and swiftly help you get through the day. So let's imagine you're running late to a meeting or trying to get home and, you know, too far to walk. Maybe you don't have public transit. This is anthropologist Mary Gray. And so you decide to order a Lyft or an Uber or some, even a taxi. And after a few seconds, your driver accepts your request for the ride. Let's call him Sam. Unbeknownst to you, Sam shaved off his beard last night. And this only matters because for a company like Uber, for example, it has all of their drivers verify their IDs with pictures.

28:26So the picture verification that a driver like Sam might send in the morning may not match his photo ID that's on record. That's going to set off an automated alarm bell for Uber. Sam doesn't know it, but before he picks you up, halfway across the world, a woman named Aisha is quickly checking his ID. And in front of Aisha is going to pop up those two faces, a photo of Sam that's on record, and the photo he just took where he doesn't have his beard anymore. And her job is within seconds, quite literally, as a timer is ticking down, to identify, is this the same person? She squints at her screen with just moments to decide, is the clean-shaven guy really your Uber driver?

29:17Or Aisha decides, yep, that's Sam. When she clicks yes, it's funneled into Sam's account. And he's none the wiser. He has no idea that his ride could have been rejected. And then you're on your way to the meeting. Sam's behind the wheel. You're both completely unaware that Aisha's actually facilitated you being able to get back to the office or to get home in time for dinner. This work, this micro job that Aisha did is what Mary describes as ghost work. For the past decade, she's been researching how millions of people like Aisha make our interactions with companies like Uber, Amazon, Google and Microsoft appear seamless.

30:02In many ways, it's the people behind the screen who are doing content moderation, data labeling, and a host of other activities that, for the most part, we have no idea are integral to making the Internet work. so me in this scenario i trust that the app is not going to send a you know axe murderer to come pick me up why why doesn't the app want us to know that there are these humans doing really important work to keep us safe why do they keep it under wraps well the hard part is that in most cases the assumption is as the consumer you don't want to be bothered but there isn't a way to have this kind of what seems frictionless, smooth experience as a consumer without having also a process that verifies who's behind the wheel.

30:56There is no computational system that can identify a person with 100 % accuracy every single time. And so Aisha becomes necessary just for a moment, But we're sold the magic that Aisha doesn't exist at all, that it's just the algorithms doing the work. To be clear, it's not as though everything on these apps, like when you call a car or you get food delivered or whatever the case might be, it's not all invisible humans working behind the scenes. It's this crucial combination, right, of algorithms, artificial intelligence, and humans. Where does the line get drawn? So the dirty little secret of the past 10, 15 years is that there is no way to automatically update information and verify its accuracy.

31:55So we've always had people involved in a moment of looking at information and saying, yes, that's the accurate spelling of a book. Yes, that is information that is still living on a website. It's not just a dead link. There's some of that work that can be automated, but there's quite a bit that cannot. And so it's a moving target for computer science and engineering to figure out what can you automate.

32:30I wonder, you know, it feels like smoke and mirrors a lot of the time. And I guess it feels like ghost work and not telling us that there are humans doing a lot of the things that we take for granted as when we use our phone and computers. It feels like deception. Yeah. So I think tech companies are pretending to be something they're not because they're kind of faking it until they make it. As long as it seems like we want things done for us through robots or through AI, they'll keep trying. So this is really important because we haven't had the general public aware enough that artificial intelligence cannot solve all of the problems.

33:16But I think also we are just coming to grips, both the engineering parts of the house and society, with, wow, this is intractably hard to fix. When we come back, more with Mary Gray and about what it takes to be an on-demand online worker. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. We'll be right back.

33:52This message comes from NPR sponsor Walmart. Did you know that Walmart is one of Fortune's 100 best companies to work for in 2025? It's no surprise. Walmart is investing$1 billion in training and development to help associates build lasting careers with or without a degree. In fact, 75 % of Walmart management started in hourly rolls. With benefits like health care, paid parental leave, and tuition support, Walmart isn't just a place to work. It's a place to grow. Learn more at walmart.com slash spark. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. And on the show today, going incognito.

34:37And we were just talking to anthropologist Mary Gray about the mostly invisible workforce that keeps many of our apps and services running. It's the people behind the screen who are doing content moderation, data labeling, and a host of other activities that, for the most part, we have no idea are integral to making the Internet work. These companies hire people to do short, quick tasks, ghost work. And this workforce, Mary says, is growing quickly. 2016, there was a research study that was done by McKinsey, and they estimated that in the U.S. and Europe alone. There are around 25 million people who have done some form of this on-demand gig work online.

35:27At that rate of growth, if you combined the current trend in contract staffing temp agency services, that's like 60%, 6-0. 60 % of today's global employment could likely be converted into some form of this kind of on-demand gig work by 2055. Whoa, that's a lot of people. That's not that far out. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like these are easy jobs. You have found that people are often paid cents per minute and they have to work incredibly fast, but also be extremely accurate. Yeah. The intense pressure in low pay is fairly common. And that's because this is, I would argue today, it's unregulated work.

36:15I mean, this is contract labor that is constantly changing. It's like a steady stream of what's next that you need to vet or classify. or sort. And at the same time, it's cognitively draining. I think the irony here, let's take the example of content moderation. When we started this work, I think most people imagined that that was work that would go away once we automated identifying content that should be removed. Right. I mean, that's what Mark Zuckerberg told us, right? I think that's what he believed. I mean, I think if you're a techno-optimist or someone who's just relentlessly committed to fixing something with technology.

37:01It's awfully hard to see problems that are perhaps beyond the reach of technology. Okay, but we have to say there is a plus side to some of this work too, right? I mean, it fits in with people's lives. In some cases, they may not be able to work at all if they don't take these tasks. Yeah, it's appealing. And I think it's important to see why is it appealing. It's a response to what's not working in employment today. We met people who were doing this work because they had no choice. There were no other good job options. They were trying to control their schedules that often had to do with family care.

37:46So for many people, it's about controlling their time. The other thing they're trying to control is what they work on. You know, they wanted to be able to pursue interests. So, for example, Natalie was someone we met, an African-American woman who was living with her parents in Queens. She was in her late 20s, early 30s. So for her, for Natalie, this was a chance to be able to do the work that could generate an income and also balance her interest in music and choreography. So she wanted to balance her, what she was working on, that in a way that would give her room to do what she really wanted to do, which was her art.

38:30The theme of our show is incognito. And I was trying to think, I'm like, so who is incognito? Who is in disguise? Is it the ghost workers themselves, that they are disguised by the technology? Or is it the company? who are saying, here's where we are. We're amazing. Look at what we can do. And it's so fast and it barely costs you anything. Use Uber. It's only$5 for you to drive, you know, all the way to Midtown in my case. Who is doing the disguising? Who is incognito in your mind? This is where it is really important to say the workers are not incognito. Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they aren't carrying out really valuable work.

39:15And importantly, they see each other every day. online. They connect with each other. I would say right now, it's the tech companies that are incognito that have, whether with intention or not, put off recognizing, seeing the value of the people who are critical to their contributions, to their services, to consumers. To a lesser extent, in some ways, consumers are just asleep at the wheel. And now that we are learning to pay attention to how many people have a role in us having an experience online or being able to have an app whisk us away or bring us food, now that we know that involves even more people than we realized before?

40:10Are we ready and willing to pay our fair share? So if you're saying that these jobs aren't going anywhere, that they're absolutely needed by these companies, why don't they build this workforce into something that is reliable and high quality? Well, I think we could. Most of the labor laws that we reference as the things that create security, that create safety on the job, they come from the 1930s, literally. Like we have no good laws in place that have recognized the current relationship we have to technology and how it mediates all of our work lives. We haven't even begun to think about what that means globally and for a globally connected workforce that works around the clock through the Internet.

41:10That was anthropologist Mary Gray, and she wrote her book, Ghostwork, with computer scientist Siddharth Suri. You can see her full talk at TED.com. Today on the show, Incognito. So far this hour, we have mostly explored strange and unusual ways that people and companies disguise themselves. But it's something we all do every single day when we get dressed. Why do we wear clothes? So first of all, you need clothes to protect yourself, obviously. But how you choose your clothes, how do they look? This is fashion. And this is part of your identity. And this is how you want to be perceived. This is Croatian fashion designer Gala Maria Vrbanic.

41:58And a few years ago, she started a company called Tribute Brand. And she wanted to debut her work in a big way. Our first dress, it's like a huge dress, golden dress with a bow and a corset. It's very simple, but it has a lot of volume. And when Gala says volume, she means volume. This dress looks like a huge balloon bent into a dress. It's made of gold with a humongous bow. Massive. It's big. It couldn't fit your wardrobe or room. It's very big. The other part is the material. So it has this very metallic, golden material added to it. And it's very shiny and smooth. So it could be only done like if you look at like Jeff Koons' sculpture or something like that.

42:46But it's a dress. And if you're thinking who could possibly wear this dress? Well, that's a rather analog question. Because Gala is a digital fashion designer. And this golden balloon-like gown, it only exists online in the virtual world. Meaning you can't wear it on your actual body. But you could put it on a photo of yourself on Instagram. It looks real in a manner that it looks perfectly fitted. So it looks real and unreal at the same time because you see a digital garment. You see there's something different. You see that this is not possible and then you see it fitted on you like it was there.

43:25Designing digital fashion has opened Gala up to wild creative possibilities. Like pants made of fire, anyone? Now you have so many possibilities to create something totally crazy and never seen before. Other virtual outfits that she's made include a shirt made of butterflies, a dress that shoots lasers. and people are spending millions of real dollars shopping for virtual clothes online. Our community are people who actually follow trends, like to set trends, but are at the same time tech savvy. So they like to also experiment with the new technologies. And, you know, of course, it's younger people.

44:07We need fashion where we express ourselves, where we socialize. and this is currently happening and it will happen even more inside online spaces. So from what I understand, part of your inspiration for creating cyber fashion came from noticing that young people were buying and then immediately reselling expensive physical streetwear brands. So who was doing this and why were they doing it? so those are those kids that are buying streetwear like supreme off-white and you know all of those brands that supply very limited amount of clothing so what i realized they were gathering in those facebook groups and reselling the garments they've just bought like two hours ago they bought the garment and then they're reselling they just took a photo of themselves wearing that garment posted it on their instagram and then they didn't need it anymore because they've shown i got the garment and then they resell it because they wanted to buy something new.

45:11And I just realized they just need an image of a garment in a virtual space. Okay, so you saw this Instagram fashion trend happening, but you had also experienced dressing up virtually yourself because you're into video games, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was a fan of the game and I still am GTA Grand Theft Auto. Out of my car! Not my wheels, man! That's my wheels! I spent all of my childhood playing that game. And this is actually what brought me to digital fashion because my background is in traditional fashion. And my mom is a fashion designer, so I was always surrounded by fashion.

45:49But I was spending my time since childhood in those virtual spaces playing games. And I realized, like, all of the time I was playing that game, I was just going to, like, shops and buying clothing for my avatar. And then I realized that I cared more, like, how I look in those games than how I looked in physical world. And then I also realized that I'm not probably the only one because there was a reason there were so many stores in those games. I know that some people, like if they are playing video games, they will spend money to buy, you know, a special cape or a special sword. Is that considered digital fashion?

46:28It is. Everything you use to express your identity is fashion or digital fashion. And, you know, when we were young, what was very, you know, wrong, I think, with the games back then, that all of the characters were male characters. And you couldn't, you know, choose. This is why I like the clothes, because this was how was I able to change my character and do whatever I want to do. I've heard that from a lot of gamers, especially people who, because of their gender identity or sexuality, that maybe they don't feel safe in the real world. and that they really appreciate the freedom that virtual worlds can give them to be whomever they want.

47:12Yeah, it's easier. People feel more safe and people feel more confident. It might be also a reason that online they are creating that persona they want to be. They are not constrained by their own physical persona they can't move away from. And there in the online spaces, they can be 100 % what they want to be. So it's what we've been noticing. It's very welcoming. It's very inclusive. And now they're totally free. Okay, so cyber fashion is happening in gaming. It's happening on social media. But the place that I've been wondering about is augmented reality, like Google glasses or other wearable devices that are allegedly going to change the way we see the world around us.

48:04I think AR glasses will bring us there very soon. Because right now, if you want to wear digital fashion in AR, you have to take your phone and you have to film it. So it's kind of, you know, it's not very convenient. With AR glasses, you'll just put those glasses on yourself and you look at around you and you'll see that added layer instantly. and you'll see everything through it. What is it going to be like? Are we going to have an entire digital wardrobe? What if I decide I don't want to be a human? What if I want to be a hawk? Like what will be possible? That's the most exciting thing to me because there are, I think, many, many people who don't want to look like humans.

48:48Once people realize they can be whatever they want to be, they can be a box, they can be a bear, they can be themselves, They can have multiple different identities. This is where I think, you know, it's kind of this, I would say, mindset shift is needed for people to realize. And of course, the tech is also needed. So it will happen with time. I think there are some people who might think that this is actually terrifying to them. That being a real person in the world who gets dressed every morning is hard enough as it is. the thought of having to do it for the virtual version of themselves seems exhausting and maybe a little scary.

49:28Of course. Of course. Yeah. I think like each time I'm speaking, you know, about fashion, I always say we are not doing anything new. We are just using a new medium, but basically the principles that work inside traditional or physical fashion, like the whole psychology around the product and why would anyone buy it and why would anyone need is the same in the digital space. And I think human psychology will always stay the same. Just the medium where we are is different. And regarding fashion and identity expression, which is like, I think the most beautiful thing is you'll be able to choose to whom and how you want to present yourself.

50:10So you'll be able to choose to wear multiple different outfits at the same time. Right. Right. So let's say I'm walking down the street and I see my kid's teacher. She might have chosen to look to me like she's wearing, you know, an old fashioned, beautiful outfit. Clothes, though. But if maybe she's made it possible that if she runs into her friends, she looks like a peacock, like an actual bird. That's right. Exactly. I mean, it's mind boggling. And this is, you know, this is just the surface right now we've been speaking about. You know, it can go in many different directions. I'm just scrolling through your Instagram and there's a woman wearing a beautiful ball gown that looks as though it's electrified.

51:00There's another guy wearing what kind of looks like a superhero chest plate, but it's fitted to him kind of perfectly. there's another gown that's made out of sort of metallic, puffy material, like those Jeff Kuhn's artworks. And her dog is wearing the same dress and also looks amazing. Yeah, you can be anything, you know. You can be anything. Yeah, and your dog too. That was Tribute Brand founder and digital fashion designer Gala Maria Vrbanic. You can watch her TED Talk at TED.com. Thank you so much for listening to our show this week about being incognito. This episode was produced by Katie Monteleone, James Delahousie, Fiona Guerin, and Catherine Seifer.

51:51It was edited by Rachel Faulkner, James Delahousie, and Katie Simon. Our production staff at NPR also includes Sanad Zmeshkenpour and Matthew Cloutier. Our theme music was written by Ramteen Arablui. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Colin Helms, Anna Phelan, Michelle Quint, Sammy Case, and Daniela Belarezzo. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S. from household names like Mattel and Gymshark.

52:33Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor Fixable, a podcast from TED. Hear unfiltered expert advice from CEO Anne Morris and Harvard Business Professor Francis Fry on how to build, regain, and maintain your confidence. Find Fixable wherever you listen.