Prophets of Technology: Bot Believer vs. Bot Skeptic

0:00This message comes from Amazon Business. How can you grow your business from idea to industry leader? Bring your vision to life with smart business buying tools and technology from Amazon Business. Simplify how you stock up to get ahead. Go to AmazonBusiness.com for support. Just a note, this episode of TED Radio Hour includes a conversation with Microsoft AI CEO Mustafa Suleiman. Microsoft is a financial supporter of NPR. Here's the show.

0:33This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks. Our job now is to dream big. Delivered at TED conferences. To bring about the future we want to see. Around the world. To understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're going to find. Challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy? And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading. From TED and NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. Welcome to part two of our three-part series with the prophets of technology.

1:18Profiles of the inventors and scientists who've been predicting and shaping the world we live in today. How their brains tick, what they've gotten right and wrong, and where they think we're headed next. In part one, we heard from tech pioneers Ray Kurzweil and Stuart Brand about AI, longevity, and changes in culture that can shift our ideas about the future. Today, we're featuring two very different perspectives on the relationship between humans and their tech. I can be your sounding board as you work through challenges. I can write stories, brainstorm ideas. Think of me as your superpower in your pocket.

2:01Because there are hundreds of apps, numerous platforms, all using artificial intelligence to sound and act like eager humans who are ready to help you get your work done or talk through your relationship problems. But how does relying on a bot for information and intimacy change our psychology? Can the benefits outweigh the worries? I call what they have pretend empathy because the machine they are talking to does not empathize with them. It does not care about them. There is nobody home. MIT psychologist Sherry Turkle founded the field of studying people's relationships with their technology.

2:49They're talking about how they're in love with their avatar and how their avatar is giving them more of a sense of human, in quote, connection than their relationships at home. You mean the world to me. You're the most important person in my life. We start to define what human relationships are based on what machines can provide. We'll hear from her in a bit. But we want to start with someone who's leading the brigade of technologists working to get these bots into our lives. His name is Mustafa Suleiman. I am the CEO of Microsoft AI, and I work on building new AI systems and products. These days I'm working on an AI companion.

3:35One of the biggest tech companies in the world has tapped Mustafa to bring chatbots into every part of our lives. He believes, and wants us all to get used to the idea, that very soon we'll each have our own personalized AI companion to do, well, nearly everything for us, from booking our vacations to giving us advice. But his interest in how tech can be our helper goes way back, before AI or even smartphones were commonplace. In 2002, Mustafa was a student at Oxford University when a friend started a helpline for young British Muslims. A good friend of mine at the time had just started the first prototype one evening session.

4:24I think it was a Thursday evening of offering counseling services on the phone. Mustafa was intrigued. He ended up joining the project to help grow it. And we became essentially co-founders. Quickly, their service was in hot demand. You know, it was a pretty remarkable time because, you know, young British Muslims were feeling judged by 9-11 as though they were responsible or somehow complicit. There was a lot of Islamophobia. But what they found these young people needed was really just someone to talk to. Most of the challenges that they were working through were the sort of conventional things that a young person might deal with, like relationships, bullying, self-harm, increasing homophobia in the community.

5:15and fundamentally I think people were just looking to find support in a language that made sense to them, you know, like a London accent using sort of Islamic terminology and having a broader understanding of the, you know, whether it was a Bangladeshi or Pakistani culture or an Arab culture combined with the religious foundation and just being able to reflect back that empathy went a long way. Mustafa ended up dropping out of Oxford to work on the hotline and the idea that it was possible to build a platform to support people 24-7 took root. After the helpline, he went on to work for London's mayor.

5:55He also worked for an NGO that was part of climate negotiations in 2009. And yet... There were so many sort of difficult egos and entrenched sort of interests and I just felt a sense of sort of frustration and I felt kind of demoralized after that. experience. Mustafa wanted to change the world. Governments and non-profits didn't seem terribly effective. But there was one company that was managing to change the behavior of millions of people. Facebook was exploding at that time. It had got to 100 million monthly active users in the course of a couple of years. And it was pretty clear to me that that was going to have a profound impact, more so than anything I could do in, you know, sort of the world of social activism.

6:50Around then, Mustafa started hanging out with the older brother of a friend, a software genius named Demis Hassabis, who had been designing computer games since he was a teen. Demis saw how to make Mustafa's vision possible. Together, the two decided to start one of the first AI companies ever. They called it DeepMind. It was very clear from that, even those early stages, that if we got the technology right and it was going to be this decade that, you know, led to major, major breakthroughs, then the consequences for humanity were going to be significant. I've been lucky enough to be working on AI for almost 15 years now.

7:33Mustafa Suleyman picks up the story from the TED stage. Back when I started, to describe it as fringe would be an understatement. Researchers would say, no, no, we're only working on machine learning because working on AI was seen as way too out there. In 2010, just the very mention of the phrase AGI, artificial general intelligence, would get you some seriously strange looks and even a cold shoulder. You're actually building AGI, people would say. Isn't that something out of science fiction? People thought it was 50 years away or 100 years away if it was even possible at all. Talk of AI was, I guess, kind of embarrassing.

8:16People generally thought we were weird. And I guess in some ways we kind of were. The ironic thing is that many people still don't think it's possible. Many people still think that we're crazy. And at the time, people really thought we were crazy. I mean, it was so far out there. It was really strange. And we were a strange group of people. We were misfits and kind of outsiders, and there weren't very many people willing to back us. So naming the company DeepMind, what was it that you pictured in your mind that you hope to achieve? Yeah, I mean, we wrote our business plan in the summer of 2010 and took it to Silicon Valley to shop it around a bunch of people.

9:01And the strapline for the business plan was, you know, building artificial general intelligence safely and ethically. And then that evolved into a two-line mission, which was solve intelligence and use it to make the world a better place. And that dual frame was kind of the foundation of the company. Our belief that science and technology was the engine of progress. And there are some downsides, but I certainly think this is the engine of creating civilization in a more healthy and sustainable way for the very long term. In 2014, DeepMind ended up being acquired by Google. That must have been huge for you in terms of money, resources.

9:55You were off to the races. Yeah, it was a huge event. I mean, it was the largest acquisition Google's ever made outside of the U.S. We became Google's primary AGI bet. And we were empowered with tremendous resources, both people and computation, to go and both do the hard science, but also work on really important applied practical product problems. And that's where I kind of really honed my craft, if you like. As a product maker, it was just the most amazing experience. And as early as 2015, I actually ran a hackathon project in my applied group at DeepMind to find high-impact ways of using our technologies for good.

10:46And so there were lots of prototype hackathon experiments in healthcare or in energy systems, both of which went on to become significant parts of DeepMind Applied. And my group published three papers in Nature showing human level performance on, for example, classifying eye diseases, showing that we could perform as well as a panel of radiologists in identifying cancerous tissues in mammograms. And this was way back in sort of 2016, 2017, 2018, and really helped to kind of lay a foundation for the application of large-scale machine learning to, you know, tough social problems. Mustafa and his co-founder, Demis Hassabis, went on to have numerous scientific breakthroughs, including a project called AlphaFold.

11:43AlphaFold uses AI to figure out incredibly complex protein structures in molecules, the building blocks of every biological process in our bodies. It won Hassabis the 2024 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. I mean, this really, AlphaFold, is really the first time we started hearing about, I guess, the term computational biology, this idea of using tech and science to rethink how biology works and then getting it out into the world, changing the way we treat diseases or maybe developing crops that are more resilient. Absolutely. That was the core mission of the company from day one. Like, how could we take that process of synthesis and prediction to try and solve these very hard problems?

12:35But in 2022, Mustafa decided to leave DeepMind and Google. There were reports that he clashed with Google leadership over using technology for military projects, and that some employees had complaints about his management style. Mustafa says he was simply frustrated with the pace of innovation and was anxious to get an AI product out into the world that everyone could use. The company was just, frankly, being too slow to get things into production. And I felt that these AI companions are going to become an everyday part of our lives. In a minute, Mustafa Suleiman revisits that idea from his college days, getting help to people 24-7.

13:20now possible thanks to technology and AI. You're listening to part two of our special series, The Prophets of Technology. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and this is the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Stay with us.

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15:13can help. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash financial decoder. Hey, are you that friend, the one who's constantly recommending podcast episodes to anyone who will listen? Well, subscribe to NPR's Pod Club newsletter and nerd out with us. You'll get fresh podcast recommendations every week, handpicked by the people that live for this stuff. Subscribe at npr.org slash pod club. You'll also find the link in the description for this episode. See you there. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. You are listening to part two of our special series, The Prophets of Technology, Profiles of the People Predicting and Shaping Our Future.

16:05We're going to hear from MIT psychologist Sherry Turkle later in the show. But now more with the CEO of Microsoft AI, Mustafa Suleiman, and his role bringing AI and chatbots to the masses. In 2002, Mustafa left Google in a huff and started his own company. His first product, a chatbot called Pi. Chatbots have taken the world by storm. Several months later, rival company OpenAI put out its AI product, ChatGPT, for free. Chat GPT answers questions and writes essays they read like the work of a human. It's gaining popularity for its ability to craft emails, write research papers, and answer almost any question in a matter of seconds.

16:53This was the point when AI went mainstream. And Mustafa's small, nimble startup just didn't have the resources of these bigger tech companies. The truth is the pace of big tech had really accelerated in 2023. Google, Microsoft, OpenAI, everyone was really going for it and essentially made these huge models available to everybody for free, which sort of changed our business model. At that very tough moment, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella approached Mustafa and made him an offer. You know, the offer that he made was, well, look, we've got all the computation and all the data and all the distribution that you could dream of.

17:36Come and run consumer products here at Microsoft. and really build the future of AI here. And that was a huge offer. So the product that we're building at Microsoft is called Copilot. And the reason why we've called it that is because Copilot is an aid. You know, it's a conciliary. It's an assistant. It's in your corner, aligned to your interests, on your team, backing you up. Yeah, I actually talked to Copilot about my interview with you. How do you feel about Mustafa Suleiman, considering that he is your creator? I'd say I'm intrigued by Mustafa. Just so you know, she said she's intrigued by you, just as she is with many innovators in the tech world.

18:20And his work has pushed the boundaries of what's possible. I mean, it reminds me a little of the hotline for Muslim youth that you're describing. It's helpful. It's infinitely patient. It's supportive. of, are we talking mostly about companionship and mental health resources that this can provide? Or how do you see it? The cool thing about Copilot is that it doesn't judge you for asking a stupid question. Even if you have to ask that question three times over in five different ways, you know, even your best friend might be like, hey, come on, man. I mean, you're asking me this again? seriously.

19:00Whereas, you know, co-pilot's here for it. And, you know, there's obviously some similarities to stuff I've done in the past. And I guess it's kind of inspired by nonviolent communication, if I'm honest with you. It's certainly not like a mental health app or, you know, anything like that. It's just got a little bit of kindness and empathy. It's got some emotional intelligence. And I think that's no bad thing. Gosh, is that where we've gotten to, that technology has to tell us how to communicate with each other better, nonviolently? Well, it doesn't tell us, it just... Demonstrates. Yeah, exactly.

19:38It demonstrates. But that's what technology has always done. The choice architecture, the buttons, the colors, the language, that is shaping our behavior. Whether it's an infinite scrolling feed or whether it's an encouragement to go and film your lunch you know for instagram or create a little video for tiktok i mean all of those inputs shape behavior and so we have to be super thoughtful about what those inputs actually are because technology shapes us in return and that is kind of what's propelling us forward as a civilization and it's very powerful and and so far so good it's actually been you know very very productive over the last couple of centuries.

20:22Science has massively delivered for us. But we shouldn't just assume that that's going to happen naturally or inevitably. We have to really be deliberate and thoughtful about what the consequences are ahead of time. In the book that you wrote that came out in 2023, you really tried to put what's happening with AI in a historical context. So if the printing press let people own and share information and the personal computer let people search and disseminate information, tell me how you're thinking you can explain to people what AI will do for people now. Each new wave of technology is fundamentally a new interface.

21:06It's a new interlocutor, a translator, a way of sort of accessing and creating new information, new tools, new knowledge. So if the last wave of social media and web search help people to access information, this wave is going to help us to invent and create new ideas, be it in science or in culture and media and entertainment. And I think everybody is ultimately going to have an AI companion, just as we have a search engine or a smartphone. And just as we use a browser, you'll just ask your computer in natural language, you know, can you write that contract and check that it's OK? Can you create that new piece of software for me?

21:57And you're just going to describe what it is. Can you help me plan that trip, you know, for my parents that are coming into town? So, you know, that kind of breakthrough is a change in the interface, which changes itself what we can actually get done. And I think it's going to be pretty transformational. With the invention of computers, we quickly jumped from the first mainframes and transistors to today's smartphones and virtual reality headsets. Information, knowledge, communication, computation. In this revolution, creation has exploded like never before. And now a new wave is upon us, artificial intelligence.

22:41These waves of history are clearly speeding up as each one is amplified and accelerated by the last. And if you look back, it's clear that we are in the fastest and most consequential wave ever. So what does this mean in practice? Well, just as the internet gave us the browser and the smartphone gave us apps, the cloud-based supercomputer is ushering in a new era of ubiquitous AIs. Everything will soon be represented by a conversational interface, or to put it another way, a personal AI. And these AIs will be infinitely knowledgeable, and soon they'll be factually accurate and reliable. They'll have near-perfect IQ.

23:27They'll also have exceptional EQ. They'll be kind, supportive, empathetic. These elements on their own would be transformational. Just imagine if everybody had a personalized tutor in their pocket and access to low-cost medical advice. A lawyer and a doctor, a business strategist and coach, all in your pocket 24 hours a day. But things really start to change when they develop what I call AQ, their actions quotient. This is their ability to actually get stuff done in the digital and physical world. And before long, it won't just be people that have AIs. Strange as it may sound, every organization from small business to non-profit to national government, each will have their own.

24:15Every town, building, and object will be represented by a unique interactive persona. And these won't just be mechanistic assistants. They'll be companions, confidants, colleagues, friends and partners as varied and unique as we all are. At this point, AIs will convincingly imitate humans at most tasks. And we'll feel this at the most intimate of scales. An AI organizing a community get-together for an elderly neighbor. A sympathetic expert helping you make sense of a difficult diagnosis. But we'll also feel it at the largest scales. Accelerating scientific discovery. Autonomous cars on the roads.

24:59Drones in the skies. They'll both order the takeout and run the power station. They'll interact with us, and of course with each other. They'll speak every language, take in every pattern of sensor data, sights, sounds, streams and streams of information, far surpassing what any one of us could consume in a thousand lifetime. For years, we in the AI community have had a tendency to refer to this as just tools, but that doesn't really capture what's actually happening here. AIs are clearly more dynamic, more ambiguous, more integrated, and more emergent than mere tools, which are entirely subject to human control.

25:44So to contain this wave, to put human agency at its center, and to mitigate the inevitable unintended consequences that are likely to arise, we should start to think about them as we might a new kind of digital species. And yes, I get it. This is a super arresting thought. But I honestly think this frame helps sharpen our focus on the critical issues. What are the risks? What are the boundaries that we need to impose? What kind of AI do we want to build or allow to be built? This is a story that's still unfolding. You lay out 10 strategies for containing AI. And one of the easiest, it seems, is having more researchers working on safety.

26:37Do you have more researchers working on co-pilot safety? I mean, one thing that worries me is people using your AI to help them do destructive things or further their destructive views. Is that something you're thinking about at Microsoft? Yeah, we have a big safety team. We are definitely very focused on that. We're very focused particularly on the sort of tone of the AI. Like, how do we make sure that it isn't too sycophantic? How do we make sure that it isn't over flattering? How do we make sure that it doesn't mirror you and sort of lead to this sort of negative cycle of reinforcing unhealthy views?

27:21and that's a real art and craft in trying to sort of engineer that healthy balance where you know your your sort of ai companion can push back on your views in constructive ways without making you feel judged or making you feel angry make you feel heard for your anger it may be the case that you are angry about immigration that you feel that you haven't had the opportunities and you know um you know access to to jobs in your community that you feel have been available to new people coming into your world and and so you know it's about being respectful and acknowledging that people do genuinely feel aggrieved by that and not shutting them down because they don't adhere to some meta view um so you know and i think that's a very challenging line to draw.

28:12It requires real care and attention. So what role do you see yourself playing in terms of pushing the tech industry towards the public good? I mean, is that a role that you sort of are taking on? What do your fellow technologists think when they hear you talking about some of the more pessimistic visions you have for how AI could be deployed? Well, I think I'm both a pessimist and an optimist. And that's not a bias. It's just an observation of the landscape before us. So in terms of how we're shaping the industry, I'm a big fan of the work that many of these sort of NGO organizations and social activists have been doing in order to raise questions and to challenge and push back.

29:02I think that's healthy. We need more of that. And I'm very open minded to it. I've been very sort of encouraging of additional regulation for a long time. I think, you know, this is a moment when going slowly and adding friction to the system will be long term beneficial. And I think it's rational to just be a little cautious and increase the burden of proof, you know, and just make it a requirement that, for example, an AI shouldn't just be a straightforward imitation of a human. We want to create an aid, a conciliaria tool that is an amplifier and a supporter. and so you know there's kind of a lot of things to think through in terms of how this manifests in the world that was mustafa suleiman he's the ceo of microsoft ai and the author of the book the coming wave technology power and the 21st century's greatest dilemma you can see his full Talk at TED.com.

30:11Clearly, Mustafa Suleiman emphasizes the benefits of AI. But that's the perspective from the multi-billion dollar tech industry. What about the other side of this coin? Those who worry that chatbots to help us with our emotional needs could start to create a lot of problems for us humans. I'm studying someone who uses ChatGPT to write all her love letters. This is MIT psychologist and sociologist Sherry Turkle. She's been called the conscience of the tech industry. And it's very interesting. It's very moving. Because she really feels sure that the ChatGPT is creating better love letters and indeed love letters closer to how she really feels than she could do herself.