The Future of Sustainability: Repair, repurpose, reimagine

0:00This message comes from AT &T. Staying connected matters. That's why AT &T has connectivity you can depend on. or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT &T Guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com slash guarantee for details. This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks. Our job now is to dream big. Delivered at TED conferences. To bring about the future we want to see. Around the world. To understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're going to find. Challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?

0:44And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading. From TED and NPR.

1:00I'm Manoush Zomorodi. Getting a fancy new phone or computer can feel so exciting, like you have a superpower, until it inevitably slows down, freezes, or stops working altogether. It is so aggravating. But there are some people who actually find it thrilling if their stuff stops working. Oh yeah, fixing things is a puzzle. I just find it enormously satisfying. This is Gay Gordon Byrne. Gay does not have the latest iPhone. I think I have an iPhone 8. Okay, so how old is your phone then? I don't know how many years it was in use before I bought it. I bought it two years ago. Used. What about your laptop that you work on?

1:51Pretty sure that's about five years old. Have you ever needed to fix it? Yeah, several times. It was overheating, and I suspected I needed a new fan, So I ordered a fan. I opened it up, saw the fan was clogged with cat hair. Gross. I've also had to replace some keys on my keyboard. I've replaced the battery. I just enjoyed every minute of it to see how these things work. So gay is unusual. Don't feel badly if you've never pulled apart your laptop. because the companies who manufacture our products, they purposely make it hard for us to fix them. When people started getting personal computing equipment and cell phones and things like that, they were told these things are so complicated and so difficult.

2:43Only the manufacturer is capable of making these repairs, and people largely bought into that whole idea. Look at all the old companies that used to be in our towns. There was always an appliance repair shop. There was a TV repair shop. There was a computer repair shop. Those places are gone. And they're gone not because people didn't want to fix stuff, but because they can't repair things if they can't get the essential parts and tools. And as you can see, with the success of companies such as Apple, they have made a killing by making it impossible to repair without help from the Apple store.

3:21Gay worked in the tech industry for decades. And this corporate behavior ticked her off. So in 2013, she founded the Digital Right to Repair Coalition. And because that's a mouthful, we are also known as Repair.org. Their mission? It's to fight for repair-friendly legislation, standards, regulations, and policies. When I first heard it, I was like, what do you mean the right to repair? That's like the right to fix something. Well, duh. Yes. I mean, but what you're saying is we are at a point where we need the law to tell these companies that we should be allowed to repair the things that we buy.

4:08Right. When you first started talking about the phrase, what was the response from lawmakers, from manufacturers? What did they think? Oh, they had exactly the same reaction you did. They said, what is that? And we were able to explain it mostly in the context of cars because everybody understood that they need to be able to go to the local mechanic. And we say, well, those problems exist now for everything else. We are stuck with whatever the manufacturer feels like doing because we don't have the consumer protection laws to require them to do what we need them to do. People need to fix their stuff.

4:47And if they can't, there are some really bad consequences. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Since the 70s, that's been the slogan for the environmentally conscious. But today, we often feel unsure if our daily habits make any difference at all. Are the items we toss in the recycling bin really recycled? Why are we getting new phones and laptops rather than fixing them? And does clean energy or eating sustainably truly have to be a political issue? Well, on today's show, ideas that put a twist on reducing, reusing and recycling and could upend entire industries. We'll meet people working to radically change what we consume and what we see as disposable.

5:37Let's get back to Gay Gordon Byrne. If we are going to have any control over our e-waste problem, we have to talk about repair. Here she is on the TED stage. Back in 2013, the EPA estimated that the average U.S. household already owned 28 digitally driven gizmos and gadgets. It was everything from garage door openers and hot tub controls to smart toasters. If we just do a little math and multiply 28 times our roughly 123 million households, we come up with a pretty staggering three and a half billion pieces of e-waste that don't belong in our landfills and they are costly and difficult to put back as raw materials.

6:23When we look a little more closely at what's even possible with recycling, I think we've been ignoring some really ugly truths. By the time a laptop or refrigerator or even an electric toothbrush gets in our hands, almost all of the environmental damage has already been done. All the costs of mining and refining and smelting and transportation. And we don't see these costs when we go to the store. And we don't see the human costs of terrible labor conditions and exposure to toxic materials. So fixing more and throwing away less just makes sense. Let's talk about where we are then in terms of the law and legislation.

7:09The law says that they're not supposed to be monopolizing repair. They do. So more enforcement would be helpful. But enforcement is not the same as making a requirement that they sell parts and tools. And that can only be done in states because states have the power of general business law. And states can say, Mr. Manufacturer, if you're going to do business in my state, you must do X, Y, and Z. And those laws are very powerful and they work. There was a successful wheelchair right to repair bill that we finally got passed in Colorado. Wait, why would you not have the right to repair your own wheelchair?

7:48Because they won't sell you the parts. It's a ridiculous situation where the wheelchair manufacturer says, I can't sell you a battery until like three months from now. And meanwhile, you're sitting in a chair and you can't move. That's why it went through so quickly, because it's so absurd. But the same absurdity applies to all these other things. The arguments that big manufacturers make to keep their customers from fixing their things, my understanding is that Apple has said you could hurt yourself. In other states, tech companies have argued that will create hubs for hackers. Are any of those things true?

8:27What are some of the reasons that you've heard? There are no reasons. There's only excuses. You are responsible for your own personal safety from the moment that you purchase something. That's in every contract I've ever seen, and I've spent 40 years in commercial contracting. The responsibility for safety, and cybersecurity, by the way, transfers at the cash register. I think a lot of people don't even know a world where they could take something to get fixed, right? They think, well, every two years, my carrier says that I'm available for an upgrade. They go to the store and they get a new phone.

9:03Where does the old one go? The phones that are taken back in trade tend not to reappear on the used market. They tend to be shredded or pulled apart very prematurely. And the parts that they're pulling out could be used for repairs, but that's not their business. Their business is to sell new phones. So that is what happens when a manufacturer controls the secondary market, is they want to keep as much used equipment off the market as possible. You mentioned earlier that most repair shops have gone away. If we get the right to repair our stuff, would there even be enough people to repair them?

9:42So these jobs that have gone away will come back, and they will come back in droves because there's a heck of a lot more equipment out there that needs repair services. There's hundreds of thousands of people that have the capabilities and the qualifications, and there will be jobs in towns that will support a family because these are not low-level factory jobs. They're great jobs, and they don't require an advanced degree. I'll give you a new example. There's a charity in Minnesota called TechDump, and they take in donated electronics, and then they hire adults that are hard to employ, many of whom coming out of the criminal justice system.

10:21They train them to make repairs. They then take the repaired goods, sell them, and use the proceeds to fund more training. And secondary markets are why used equipment is so affordable, because the used seller has to compete with new. So if a new gadget is$1 ,000, we expect a pretty big discount to buy that same item used. Let's start with 50%. So now we have an affordability capability that is central to crossing the digital divide. We had 5 million students that went to virtual school this past year that didn't have enabling technology. And that's because parents and school districts couldn't buy new.

11:07we still have a lot of chip shortages, and these are going to be with us for a while. And I think we have to think very seriously about doing more repair, not just to make things last longer, but also to be more resilient as an economy. The work that you do, do you find that your supporters fall along predictable party lines? Actually, there's almost no partisan divide at all. It cuts across every possible socioeconomic, political or geographic line. I'd say the only real divide we seem to see is almost an age divide. I see that the older the legislator, the less familiar they are with A, technology, and B, with the limitations of modern technology.

11:52The last kitchen remodel they did was 20 years ago. All of those appliances still work. But if they've done one in the past five years, they will have already experienced some pretty severe problems. That's so depressing. You're saying that the newer your appliances are, the more likely they are to crap out sooner. Absolutely. You put a computer in a refrigerator, it's not going to last 20 years anymore. So bottom line, I need a new refrigerator or phone. What should I keep in mind? Buy the least high-tech product you can in a home appliance. Don't buy the one with the fancy screen on the outside because the screen craps out way faster than the compressor.

12:37Don't buy the bells and whistles because they don't last and they won't be supported. And one day they might drop support on it altogether. And now you've got to replace and reprogram your entire household. So low tech, as low tech as you can get. I think we've been told that we want bright and shiny more so than we actually want bright and shiny. Cell phones, tablets, whatever. People do want to buy things that'll last. And repair is the way that you get to long, useful life of the product. That's Gay Gordon-Byrne. She's the executive director and founder of Repair.org. You can see her full talk at TED.com.

13:20Today on the show, repair, repurpose, reimagine. We'll be right back.

13:36This message comes from the Michael J. Fox Foundation. Did you know that every six minutes someone in the U.S. is diagnosed with Parkinson's? It's the fastest growing brain disease in the world. Chances are you or someone you know is impacted by Parkinson's. The Michael J. Fox Foundation is on a mission to find a cure. Now is a critical time for Parkinson's research, and your support will help drive progress toward a cure. Get involved today. Visit michaeljfox.org slash get involved. This message comes from NPR sponsor Fixable, a podcast from TED. Hear unfiltered expert advice from CEO Anne Morris and Harvard business professor Francis Fry on how to build, regain, and maintain your confidence.

14:21Find Fixable wherever you listen. This message comes from NPR sponsor, Sierra. Ever found yourself waiting on hold, losing patience, and then hanging up? It's frustrating and all too common. That's why they're Sierra, the AI platform that makes talking to businesses easy. No stock answers, no hold music, just real solutions, fast. Visit sierra.ai to learn more. This message comes from NPR sponsor, Walmart. Did you know that Walmart is one of Fortune's 100 best companies to work for in 2025? It's no surprise. Walmart is investing$1 billion in training and development to help associates build lasting careers with or without a degree.

15:04In fact, 75 % of Walmart management started in hourly roles. With benefits like health care, paid parental leave, and tuition support, Walmart isn't just a place to work. It's a place to grow. Learn more at walmart.com slash spark. Before we get back to the show, I want to ask you to please consider becoming a member of TED Radio Hour Plus. You'll get extra advice, stories, and expertise from TED speakers every other week and no ads ever. And you'll be supporting public radio. Listener support is crucial to keeping us going. Go to plus.npr.org slash TED or give it a try right in the Apple Podcasts app.

15:54It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. Today on the show, repair, repurpose, reimagine. So, Andrew, where are we going? We're heading to the library. The other day, I took the subway to Lower Manhattan to go to a library. It's just through here. But this isn't a library for books. Housed on the sixth floor of a skyscraper right near Wall Street is a library for materials. It's innovative and sustainable stuff. So things which is new, different, materials that perhaps you wouldn't have expected. My guide, the librarian, is scientist Andrew Dent. I work as a material researcher for a company called Material Connection.

16:39The company acts as a kind of matchmaker. Yes, yes. We like to match the innovators, the people who manufacture these materials or create these materials, and the people who use them, whether it's an architect, designer, or a manufacturer of the product themselves. We do, of course, have resources for the more standard materials, the stuff that you make shampoo bottles out of or the leather for your couch, but designers kind of want to see what's new and what's next. So this is like walking in the future. The materials library is a large room filled with movable walls. each with dozens of samples of different materials mounted on display from floor to ceiling.

17:16Okay, I'm following you. Go through the wall after wall after wall of materials. And some of these are just like little boxes. Watch this one. This is a method for turning eggshells and tomato peels into automobile tires. Oh my God, this is 100 % vegan leather made of apple peels. That's so cool. I mean, just in front of me here is a sound absorbing panel made from natural handpicked Scandinavian reindeer moss. Is it okay if I touch it? Yes. That's okay? It's very soft. It's soft. I would love to have a wall made out of that. What's the criteria for something to make it into the library? We have a panel that judges the materials.

18:02You know, we of course want to include as much stuff as possible. We want to ensure that our designers have access to as many different options as possible. But for us, we want really just the stuff that will be wow, but also the stuff that will offer a more sustainable, lower carbon future and will resonate with consumers. When you throw something away, it typically goes into a landfill. Andrew says we need to reimagine how we make and build things and use materials that will never end up as garbage. Here he is on the TED stage. The industry that's not doing so well is the architecture industry.

18:41One of the challenges with architecture has always been when we build up, we don't think about taking down. That's a challenge because it ends up that about a third of all landfill waste in the U.S. is architecture. We need to think differently about this. There are programs that can actually reduce some of this material. A good example is this. There's actually bricks that are made from old demolition waste, which includes the glass. Includes the rubble, includes the concrete. We put it up, put it all together, heat it up, and make these bricks we can basically build more buildings from. But it's only a fraction of what we need.

19:13My hope is that with big data and geotagging, we can actually change that. And we can be more thrifty when it comes to buildings. If there's a building down the block which is being demolished, are there materials there that the new building being built here can use? Can we use that ability to understand all of the materials that are available in that building that's still usable? Can we then basically put them into a new building without actually losing any value in the process? Okay, so let's say I'm one of your clients and I arrived here and I said, you know, Andrew, I have looked at my beautiful design for, I don't know, a sneaker, a new fashionable sneaker.

19:53but I definitely want to market it to a conscientious consumer. You would then take me into the library and show me what? We would show you two types of things. We would show you materials. We'd also show you new manufacturing processes as well. Ew, Andrew, that looks like a box with somebody's old chewing gum in it. Exactly right. So there's a company in London that is taking, well, basically has put containers around the city. So when you finish chewing your gum, rather than leaving it on the floor, which is in itself not a good thing, you can put it into one of these receptacles, and they will collect it, they will clean it, and then they will take that material, because it's basically a rubbery material, and they'll synthesize it and manufacture it into products.

20:37Like what? Coffee cup lids, coffee cups themselves, even the soles of shoes. Because the material, it's just a chemistry. So, yes, it's been inside my mouth and I've been chewing it, it's got bacteria from my mouth, but once we clean that off, the raw material itself has value as basically a rubbery, durable, and colorable product. So is this a proof of concept or is this actually... So what's this? So this is a rigid panel material, perhaps used as a countertop, 100 % from fish scales. No way. Fish scales? So, okay. Tell me where this... Okay, explain the process here. It looks, by the way, it really looks just like maybe quartz, quartz countertop.

21:22Yes, or something like that. So, yes, it turns out that chidosan, which is what fish scales are made of, is a very wonderful engineering material. So they're going to clean it first, so it doesn't smell of fish. Do you smell it? It doesn't smell like anything. Okay, exactly. Because we're not able to clean these sorts of things very effectively. So it doesn't smell of fish. There's no salt. So we just take the raw material, clean it well, press it together hard with a binder, and it becomes a viable, valuable material. Is this going to happen soon? Are there, I don't know, fish canneries in Alaska also turning into kitchen countertop companies?

21:55This company sells kitchen countertops. You can purchase kitchen countertop from this company, which is 100 % fish scales. Do I get a discount? So let's keep going. Okay. This one I thought might be interesting. Merda Cotta. It's actually some rough looking cups and bowls that are manufactured out of cow manure. Really? Okay, so it looks like a terracotta mug. Oh, you're taking it off. Yes. Can I touch it again? Yes, of course. Okay. Give me a drink out of it as well. It was more of a concept. Okay. But this is poop. This is cow poop. This is cow poop, yes. But it looks really nice. Well, it's also very functional.

22:35The thing was, you had a farmer, a dairy farmer, who basically was worried about the amount of manure they were producing. They had to discard it somehow, and there wasn't any other use for it. So they thought, okay, well, since it's mostly just cellulose fibers, it's still usable material. So they decided that, okay, well, let's fashion it into cups and then just fire it and manufacture these products out of it. But I'm guessing that's a hard sell, right? I mean, right? Well, it doesn't need to be a cup. It can be floor tiles. It can be something else that perhaps you wouldn't be drinking out of.

23:13I have to ask you as a consumer I mean it's really depressing everything I read basically says that's very nice that you're recycling your milk jug or your laundry detergent jug but the chances of it actually being recycled and reused again uh is pretty limited what do you feel that way too Is that true? I feel like we don't even know what to believe anymore when it comes to recycling as consumers. It is confusing, yes. And our recycling rates are abysmal. If we take the most easily recyclable and the most valuable material, say a water bottle or a soda bottle. So that material is amorphous polyester.

24:01It's clear. It recycles very easily. We've got a very efficient system to recycle it. It ends up as chairs or as clothing. So it's got a second life. It has value. And we still only recycle about a quarter of it. Compare that to other plastics. Let's say the polyethylene used in milk cartons or in shampoo bottles. That number gets down to sort of 5 % or 10%. But it is possible to do it efficiently. There are some Scandinavian countries. Yes, I know they always do it better than we do. Where their recycling rates are up in the 80s and 90%. So almost everything that they are using then gets recycled back into something else.

24:37We have a unique challenge here in the US, but it is possible to improve. And yes, it can be sometimes that you lose faith in it, but there have been so many new methods of recycling and our efficiencies of actually repurposing that material once it does actually get recycled are so good. I believe that there is still hope.

24:59I just want to have you think about if you make anything, if you're any part of a design firm, if you basically are refurbishing your house, any aspect in which you make something, think about how that product could potentially be used as a second life or third life or fourth life. Design in the ability for it to be taken apart. In the meantime, it sounds like we also need to consider changing the way we manufacture things. so that they are, is the right term circular? Is that the right term? Yes, that is the ideal, that everything should work in circles, because everything in nature works in circles.

25:37The water circle, the circle of life. Nature basically finds a second life, a third life, a repeatable life for everything it has. There is no waste in nature. And we are thinking about designing products so they have the potential for a second life. So, trying to remove glues, which make it very hard to pull things apart. Trying to make things which are what we call monomaterial, so all from the same material. So, therefore, you can put it in the same recycling bin. So, this design evolution has tried to approach design as a way of ensuring that any product can have a second or third life. I just want to ask you what comes to your mind as a material scientist when I say, I mean, it's a phrase that's been said an infinite number of times, reuse, repurpose, recycle.

26:30Is that still the right message or is there a new message that we need? It's still a viable message. I think reuse for me is possibly one of the most valuable ones because no matter how sustainable you can make a product, if it can last two or three times the length of another product, then that is always going to be the better choice. but I think the standard three of reduce reuse recycle are iterative. They are steps we can take for existing solutions. I think for me it's very much about reimagine. I know it's a tired old example but from CDs to iTunes we've just reimagined and now it's a process that uses no material at all.