We Contain Multitudes

0:00This message comes from Somni, the award-winning smart sleep headband aimed at helping you fall asleep and stay asleep with neurotechnology. developed by UC Berkeley scientists, including Dr. Matt Walker. Try 45 days risk-free at SomniSleep.com. This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks. Our job now is to dream big. Delivered at TED conferences. To bring about the future we want to see. Around the world. To understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're going to find. Challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?

0:43And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading. From TED and NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and we're going to start with a story about a superhero, Marvel Comics' America Chavez. Okay, so here we are, right? America Chavez is kidnapped, she is attacked, right? And she wakes up, and where is she? In the middle of a boxing ring. This is the series author, Gabby Rivera. She knows that the last thing that she remembers is that she was kissing her ex. Dun-dun-dun. And who's across from her but that same ex, Magdalena La Sirena, ready to box her out, ready to punch her out.

1:36And what happens? Bam! Magdalena throws the first punch. And America's like, but wait, we can work this out. And Magdalena is like, nope, they've got my dad. America tries to dodge, but Magdalena is landing right and left hooks. Then all kinds of other bad guys show up. All this chaos ensues. You got folks, like, whipping out their chains. Is this the end of America Chavez? Crash! Heck no. Because America's grandma, the luchador Madrimar, land in the ring to save the day. America and her luchador grandma lock arms and leap into the air. Boom! for the power stop. And it flattens and decimates, and they save the day and each other.

2:36Woo! Go America! Go Grandma! I love it! Oh, Gabby, this scene makes very clear that America has superpowers. But should we also add that she is the first Latina queer superhero in the Marvel Universe. Yeah, but what makes her stand out is people want to say it's like the identities, right? The queerness, the Latinidad, like all, you know, the identities. But America Chavez is about like heart. She is about discipline and her own way. She wants to do things her own way. Like, America, Chavez is, like, sharp on the outside and so soft on the inside. We all wish we were superheroes, able to fight off the meanies, protect our loved ones, and be true to ourselves.

3:31But for many of us, that's just a fantasy. Dealing with self-doubt is a constant battle. And openly talking about identity can quickly turn into a polarizing political debate. How can we embrace the nuances of being human? Today on the show, we contain multitudes. Stories and ideas from mere mortals who've managed to reconcile their conflicting emotions and circumstances to make art, find joy, even break Olympic records. Back to Gabby Rivera. As a child, the world was a scary place. And she felt like she was an easy target. At no point did I think superheroes would become such a huge part of my life.

4:18Here she is on the TED stage. As a kid, I looked at them and I saw everything I wasn't. They had big muscles, supermodel good looks, and phenomenal cosmic powers. And me? I kind of look like this. Except shorter and with frizzier hair. and I never felt powerful. I was always just one big ball of nervous, soft energy and superheroes, much like the bullies at school, didn't seem to have a lot of room for that, for me. So I stayed away. And besides, who needs superheroes when you're surrounded by Puerto Rican women from the Bronx? My tías were cops and paramedics. My abuelas were seamstresses and sold jewelry up the street.

5:11And my mom got her master's degree in education and taught kindergarten in New York City public schools for over 30 years. So my superheroes were sitting around the dinner table with me. And I don't know how much time you've spent with Puerto Rican women from the Bronx, but we're also some of the world's greatest storytellers. and I'd sit there at my grandmother's dining room table and I'd listen to the women in my family tell these wild, rambunctious tales about navigating their lives in the Bronx and I wanted to be them so bad but I wasn't tough like them either so mostly I listened and I soaked it in and I found myself gravitating to the soft threads in their stories and I wrote those down The funny, the goofy, the gentle.

6:05Those were my end of storytelling. So much so that I wrote a young adult novel. Yeah. So, Gabby, you started writing in your teens, but it wasn't until 2016 that your first novel came out. It's called Juliet Takes a Breath. And the main character, well, it kind of sounds like how you describe yourself, a chubby, queer Puerto Rican girl. I know. What a stretch. Right? Well, write what you know. Was it an autobiography? biography? I mean, sure, right? Like, for me, I write what I know. I mean, maybe with America Chavez, I was able to, like, go bonkers, right? But there's still a lot of what I know in that story.

6:48And with Juliet, it was just kind of, it's almost like a fictionalized memoir of sorts of what it was like coming out and finding feminism and coming from the Bronx and being at odds with my mom and feeling also free. At 18, 19, if you're able, if you're lucky, you finally get a handle on yourself and you're out in the world in a way that you've never been. You don't have to report back to your parents for the most part. You get to make your own choices. And so there's something really sacred and special and beautiful about that moment in all of our lives. And Juliet Takes a Breath is like a love letter to that time in so many of our lives, you know?

7:38So yeah, it comes from my experience. When you start to understand that it's okay to be complicated, and that's what being a grown-up is in some ways. Yes. So your novel does really well. author Roxane Gay tweets about it. It totally takes off. People love it. It kind of changes your life. Oh, yes. And then you get a call. I got an email. What did the email say and who was it from? This email was from Will Moss, an editor at Marvel. And was just like, Hey, Gabby, we read Juliet. Would you ever consider writing for Marvel? That's it. That's the email. And I'm at my like little LGBTQ nonprofit job working, quote unquote.

8:29And I get this email and I just was like, what? Like, is this real? You want to talk about changing the life. Marvel and America Chavez changed my life. And people were so excited because finally someone who shared her identities, queer and Latina, would be writing her story. And I saw that, right? And also when I looked at America, I saw a young Latina in survival mode. See, because her moms had sacrificed themselves to the universe when she was a kid, and she'd been on her own ever since. No wonder she had to be tough. And that link, that link of having to be tough, that rested heavy with me.

9:15Like I said, I'm from the Bronx, and the Bronx is tough. Tough like walking past sidewalk memorials and dodging cop towers on your way to the train type of tough. When stuff happens that's bad, people are like, yo, you got to keep it moving. You got to keep trucking. Don't cry. Don't let it get to you. And my mom and my tias and my abuelas, I never saw them take a moment to rest or to invest in self-care. And they're soft. It never left the house. and so that was the first thing that I wanted to give to America the thing that I wished I'd been able to give to my abuelas and my tias the thing that I'm trying to give to my mom now permission to be soft like it's okay to sit in silence and go on a journey just to discover yourself and your pain will make you crumble and you will fall and you will need to ask people for help.

10:13And that's okay. And that being vulnerable is good for us. And so when it came to America's story, I wanted to give her the space to be human, to mess up, and to find soft on her own. So she kind of had to quit her day job. You know what I'm saying? I had to give her a superhero sabbatical. And the first thing I did was enroll her in Justice Sonia Sotomayor University.

10:48Because where else would she feel safe and represented and liberated but a university dedicated to the first Puerto Rican woman nominated to the Supreme Court of the United States? and her first class is intergalactic revolutionaries and you and America is so excited she's ready to show off her strength she's ready to show off her portal punching skills and I stripped that safety net from her right away and I limited her powers and I changed up her location and shook up her world because that is what college is like, especially if you're alone. So when you got the assignment from Marvel, you went away and worked on it.

11:34But what was their response when you handed them your first draft? Were they like, yeah, abuela time, softness, and the first Latina Supreme Court justice? Or what did they think? Yo, listen, this is like my favorite part to the Marvel story because that editing team, like Will and Sarah were so game for all of it. They loved it. They ate it up. Especially when I was like, I want Storm to come in and mentor America Chavez because I had mentors. And without them, I wouldn't be where I am. They were like, we love that. Here's 40 PDFs of Storm from the 1980s. Let's give her the Mohawk. See what we've done and then see what you can do to build upon it.

12:25Right. And I am super thankful for that. And I feel like any team or company or creative entity that is hiring someone based off of like their work, their identities, their queerness, their race, whatever it is. When you bring them in, you got to support them like that. In a minute, the mixed response that Gabby Rivera got from Marvel fans for her America Chavez comic series. Literally two types of fans, right? Fans that love the series and were just happily enjoying the ride. And fans that were so obsessed, what they hated, what they didn't think was right. With every bit of My America Chavez that they spent so much of their lives writing comments and making videos about it.

13:11I'm Anoush Zomorodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Stay with us.

13:28This message comes from LinkedIn ads. One of the hardest parts about B2B marketing is reaching the right audience. That's why you need LinkedIn ads. You can target your buyers by job title, company, role, seniority, and skills. All the professionals you need to reach in one place. Get a$250 credit on your next campaign so you can try it yourself. Just go to linkedin.com slash nprpod. That's linkedin.com slash nprpod. Terms and conditions apply. Only on LinkedIn ads. This message comes from Superhuman, the AI productivity suite that gives you superpowers everywhere you work. With Grammarly, Mail, and Coda coming together, you get proactive help across your workflow so you can outsmart the chaos.

14:14Experience AI that proactively helps you go from to-do to done faster. Unleash your superhuman potential today. Learn more at superhuman.com slash podcast. That's superhuman.com slash podcast.

14:37This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new idea every day. Learn what's transforming humanity, from balancing AI and your critical thinking to surpassing discoveries about the adolescent brain. Find TED Talks Daily wherever you listen. Hey, TED Radio Hour listener, before we get back to the show, I want to let you know that we are working on a very special series investigating the relationship between our technology and our bodies, looking at how our digital habits affect us physically. It is coming this fall. You're going to get it right here down your TED Radio Hour feed in addition to our regular Friday episodes.

15:19I'm very excited about it, but I really need your help. I want to hear from you. How do you feel after a day spent working on your laptop or your computer? Does it affect your shoulders, your neck, your back, maybe your mood or your energy. I have to say that I have to describe my days as a cycle of type, tap, and collapse. I would like to know how you would describe your body. Use the voice memo app on your phone. Record yourself. Tell me, how does your body feel after a day of being on technology. Be specific and email it to us at bodyelectric at npr.org. Don't hold back. Give me the dirt. I want to hear from you.

16:07And thank you. Stay tuned. Body Electric, a special series coming out this fall. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. And on the show today, we contain multitudes. We were talking to writer Gabby Rivera about her comic book series following the adventures of Marvel character America Chavez, the first queer Latina superhero with her own series. So America Chavez is essentially like this intergalactic, like, orphan who can punch portals into other dimensions. She has, like, super strength. And here she is, like, on her own. This series was a big deal for the comic book genre and a big deal for Gabby, too, because Gabby is also queer and Latina.

16:57What can I offer her? So much has been taken from her. And yet here she is like super powerful. Gabby was thrilled at the support she got from Marvel Comics and most fans. She was horrified, though, by some of the hate and threats targeting her online, even before the series debuted. people who told Gabby that someone like her had no place in the Marvel universe or even on planet earth so I'm a masculine presenting like Bush tattooed Latina dyke essentially and that's the kind of lesbian that ruins the party you know what I'm saying and so people are always gonna pick on that people are always gonna fight that men always not all men obviously but like men predominantly will be more aggressive when I walk into a space.

17:47And so me doing America Chavez was essentially me walking into a very like white male dominated, all American type of space. And that like ruffled people's feathers. You sound very calm about it now, Gabby, but it was more than just ruffling feathers, right? I mean, you were doxed, your address was put on the web, you got death threats. I mean, it sounds like the attacks online were pretty relentless. Did you think about quitting? Oh, yeah. I 100 % thought about quitting, writing altogether, not just America Chavez. But I was like, I'm done. I tried my best, and this is what happens, and the world doesn't want me here.

18:34like these people represent a great majority of this country and they don't want me and not only do they not want me they want to like violently eradicate me from the earth why would i even bother doing this ever again and you know that was such a like hard place that was such an ache and i honestly don't know how i made it through to the end of the series Like Joe Volpe, my agent, just wrapped a huge blanket of protection around me and was like, whatever you need, we are going to help you get through this. And if you actually do want to stop, then we will figure it out.

19:16But you didn't stop, obviously. And the comic did come out. And it was mostly really well received. Like, what kept you going? Actually, this is like one of the best parts of my writer experience was all of a sudden, right, kind of towards the middle of America's run. Mom and pop shops and comic book stores across the country started inviting me to do in-store signings. And it was beautiful. I'll never forget this one family like tattooed. I think they were Mexican. And the dad hands me his baby and is like, I just want my son to be a feminist and be a good person. And your America run is part of that.

20:06And I was just like, oh my God. It hit me with such a like burst of joy. And it was like, no, remember your people are right here from the white boy comic fans to the little nerdy, non-binary, like mixed race kids who had never bought a comic before in their life and have bought America for the first time. The like chubby, effeminate Latino men who are reading America and living for her. Right. Like all these points in the comic book shops is where I fell back in love with what I was doing. Yeah. So I know you just had a baby who we just are hearing squawking. Oh, my little mama. Do you think it's going to be different for her?

20:57Do you think like who gives a crap that she's Latina, gay, all these like labels that we put first before we talk about what someone can offer to the world? Like, are we getting to a point where this is a generational thing that's shifting? I hope so. I hope so. When I have done work and when I'm in community with LGBTQ youth and even just youth that is focused on justice, coming up in the world, fighting for truth and what's right, I believe that there is a greater world possible. I believe that my little baby, who is like screaming her head off out there, will at least know that she is loved, right?

21:39She will know that she is loved and that she can be anything she wants to be and that just as she is, is enough. That's writer Gabby Rivera. You can see her full talk at TED.com.

21:58On the show today, we contain multitudes, which can refer to the various ways we identify ourselves, and also to how we see the world, personality and perspective. It's something that psychologists have been trying to understand for decades. Of course, that is the introvert. That's the introvert is always afraid of the external world. Back in 1910, for example, the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung introduced the concepts of introversion and extroversion. The world in general, particularly America, is extroverted like hell. The introvert has no place. Because he doesn't know that he beholds the world from within.

22:45And the world latched onto these binary terms, taking them to mean that we each fit into one of these two boxes. Either you are an introvert or an extrovert. But that's not what Jung intended. There is no such thing as a pure extrovert or a pure introvert. Those are only terms to designate a certain bonchant, a certain tendency. So why do we do this? Why do we find comfort in labeling? ourselves. It's such a difficult thing because as humans, you know, we naturally kind of sort people into categories and types just as a way of making sense of the whoosh of information coming at us. This is author Susan Cain.

23:28She's best known for her 2012 book, Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. It offered a modern analysis of Carl Jung's ideas. Quiet was a book that looked at the bias that we have in our culture in favor of a very kind of extroverted self-presentation and the way in which that is a colossal waste of talent and energy and happiness for the third to half of the population who are actually introverts. So you explore this idea that two conflicting labels or emotions can both be true in your new book, which is called Bittersweet, How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole. Yeah.

24:17So what bittersweetness is, is it's this deep recognition of the way in which joy and sorrow in this life are forever paired. And that everything and everybody we love most will not be here forever. but that what comes with this deep recognition of these truths, there comes a kind of piercing joy at the beauty of the world and a kind of gateway to creativity and to human connection, like the sense of us all being humans together who are all in this sort of strange situation together, and then occasional moments of transcendence. I mean to me it's very similar to quiet in that you're saying um you you are not one thing or the other you are not an introverted or extroverted you are a mix you are not experiencing just sadness or just happiness that there is so much nuance to the human experience and to each of us who we are.

25:30We contain multitudes. Yes, exactly. We contain multitudes. And the problem that we have had in our current situation is that we're not supposed to contain those multitudes. There's a very strong message that's delivered to all of us that we should be perpetually smiling. And if that's not how we feel, we should act as if we feel that way. and we should only express the most optimistic points of view and really only talk about that side of our emotional ledgers. And my argument here is that there's no human who feels that way all the time, number one. And so when we're not telling each other the truth, then we can't truly be connecting with ourselves and with each other.

26:23you spend the book exploring this idea of experiencing these two things at once longing sorrow and the beauty and creativity even that that can spark but i wonder if you could talk a little bit about this paradox of tragedy as the philosophers refer to it you write and and what they've been puzzling over for centuries. Yeah. So the paradox of tragedy is the question of why it would be that we listen to sad music. Why do we watch movies that make us cry? Why is there a tradition of tragic drama where you actually get yourself out of your home and go to watch performed on a stage very difficult and tragic events.

27:16Why would we do that? And I in particular had been puzzling over my extreme, intense, positive reaction to sad music that I have felt all my life. I dedicated this book to Leonard Cohen, who I love beyond all reason and have always experienced when I would listen to that kind of music, a kind of sense of uplift and joy and love and connection, you know, and not sadness at all.

27:49Here's Susan Cain on the TED stage. Why do we sometimes welcome sorrow when the rest of the time we will quite naturally do anything we can to avoid it? There's actually a scholarly debate raging over this question, but I have come to believe that really what we are craving at bottom is that state of longing, that joy that's laced with sorrow, which is often triggered when we experience something so exquisite that it seems to come to us from some other world. And this is why we give painters and rock stars such exalted status, because they're the ones who bring us the breath of magic from that other place, except it only lasts a moment, and we really want to live there for good.

28:34Because we know that we live in a deeply flawed world, and we have this stubborn conviction that we come from a perfect and beautiful one that remains forever out of reach. And maybe that sounds depressing to you, but this state of mind, this longing, is actually the deep source of all our moonshots and our loves. It's because of longing that we play moonlight sonatas and build rockets to Mars. And it's because we're all in this same strange state of exile that we have the capacity to empathize with each other in the first place.

29:11You trace it back to the ancient Greek and Plato who called it pathos. Is that the same as empathy? Is that what that is? It's a a deep empathy for the humanity, the eternal struggle. Yeah. One of the really cool things is that this longing impulse that we were just talking about, you see it expressed across time and across cultures. So for example, with the ancient Greeks, that meant the longing for everything that is most good, most beautiful, most true, and that is fundamentally unattainable, and yet we long for it. But the lesson that's embedded there is that the very act of longing for it is what brings you a little closer to that for which you long.

30:04And so, for example, in Homer's Odyssey, the whole epic adventure starts with Odysseus weeping on a beach out of homesickness because he's longing for home. That's the fundamental human state, is longing for home. And it's understood that he's been away from his home for 17 years, and it's the longing to return there that propels him on the adventure in the first place. I mean, when you put it that way, and once you talk about it, you start to see it everywhere and in movies and music and books and art. And yet we're in this sort of denial about accepting the sadness with the joy. Is that an American thing?