Building Success through Customer Experience W/ Brad Cleveland

0:00Welcome to the Big Success Podcast. Cutting-edge conversations on business and personal success, as well as how to level up. Here's your host, number one business coach in the world, Brad Sugars. All right, this week on the Big Success Podcast, we're diving into the customer experience. And Brad Cleveland, look, he's built customer experience with companies like Apple. He's worked with U.S. government, Australian government. How do you work with federal governments teaching them customer experience? You must know what your stuff is. American Express and Apple are just two examples. But what I think you'll get today is a unique perspective on the way the customer movement or the consumer movement has shifted, what it is and how you can build success.

0:47Actually, his take on success is one I've never heard before either. I think that's kind of unique as well. But ultimately, it's when he gets to the stuff about good being the enemy of great and how to actually fight off the good and go for the great, especially in the customer experience. I think you'll love today's episode. I think you're going to get a lot of notes from it, a lot of takeaways. This is The Big Success Podcast. And this is The Big Success Podcast with Brad Cleveland. Brad, how are you doing, my friend? Great, Brad. Thank you. Now, it's true to be said, you didn't just write the book.

1:20You literally wrote the book on the customer experience, and we'll get to more on that in a moment. But I want to take your thoughts on success here on the Big Success Podcast. How do you define success in your life? You know, Brad, there was a time in my early career I probably would have defined success as health and wealth and discretionary time. And those things are fine. They're important. I've come to believe that success is finding your calling and pursuing it with everything you've got. So that could be building a great business that makes a dent in the universe. It could be teaching middle school and inspiring those kids for a lifetime.

1:57And just to mention one more example, it's close to home. I have a sister-in-law and her husband on my wife's side of the family who have a daughter who has severe cerebral palsy. She'll always need full-time care. They've been there for her every step of the way. She's in her 20s now. And they've been this incredible example to everyone around them. And there are three other kids who are accomplished young adults now that have this incredible compassion for others. So that was a calling they didn't wish for, but they've pressed in and been so influential to others in their example. So what's your calling?

2:34Go out with everything you got. How do you think that shifted for you over time, like from as a young man with the focus on those things to finding your calling? How did you learn that definition or come up with that? I think observing people that I really admire, you know, when I just instinctively, who do I, who do I really hold in high regard? And it's, it's that, that character that they're true to themselves and they're true to their calling, whatever that is. And sometimes we don't wish our, how our calling materializes, but coming to peace with it and being everything we can be, I think is super important.

3:17Yeah, I love that. So where in your life did you choose success? Was it a young boy? Was it a young man? Where did you make the choice that you were going to be a success? Yes. That's a fun question. I can remember a humbling moment. So my first real job was part time back in my college days with a company that provided telecom and computer systems. And I was the lowest ranking employee. I was tasked with installing cable. So that meant most of my days were underneath buildings, inching my way through crawl spaces that were dusty and dark. And I'd come home looking like I'd been coal mining all day.

3:55There's that old expression, and you're starting your career on the ground floor. I just wanted to work my way up to the ground floor. But I got that opportunity one day. I was assigned to do customer-facing duty above ground. So I'm installing computer and phone terminals in offices. And I got scolded. And Brad, I mean, really dressed down by my supervisor who pointed out that I'd left fingerprints on monitors. We're trying to install a bunch of offices. And I'm just trying to get it done. And he's like, look, they spent all this money on this system. They've been excited about it. Their first thing to see are your fingerprints.

4:32And I felt about this high, but it was something I needed to hear. Yeah, all that investment, all the engineering that went into that system, but also those fingerprints were a part of and not a good part of customer experience. So that kindled my interest in this whole customer experience space. And I promised then and there to study, learn, practice, you know, really be everything I could. So when I go in and consult and train today at organizations, it comes from a very humble beginning. Yeah. You know, I love that it's almost always we have a moment that sort of says that's when success thing.

5:15So do you have a formula now for how success works in your life or in business? What is your thoughts on how success happens? I think there are three big things. One is we need to find our passion, that calling, that nagging that, you know, we got to get out there and go for it, whatever that is. Secondly, build big, exciting goals around that. And for me, there's a third. This one is probably most critical in my case. What needs to happen today? You can't write a book today, but you can do 500 words. You can't revamp your health today, but you can just do that workout. Just do it. So all of that adds up massively over time.

6:01So I think we have to do the hard yards to think, what do we need to do in the daily cadence of our schedules that's going to move us towards those things that matter the most? And if you go back in your time and you look at it, finding your calling, then defining the big goals. Was it easy to define the big goals in the beginning or was that a process for you? How did that work for you? It's been a process and I think it can evolve over time. I know it could evolve over time. So I was CEO for many years of an institute that provides training consulting. We were working in 40 countries and we would get some inkling that we needed to, We needed to be elsewhere.

6:48We had someone reach out and, hey, your training's great if you could only provide it here in Sweden or here in Australia or whatever. So just by putting our antennas up, those opportunities begin to become available. And our goals would then change. Like, how do we make an even bigger impact out there? What's our possibility with all of this? Do you have any strategies then for step three for like the daily thing for you? Is there any way you keep yourself on that? That's a great question. I've had to make to-do lists that are very specifically tied to goals. So there's the to-do lists that we all have that we need to clear the deck and run the errand and make the call and all that.

7:37I've had to be very intentional about how does that tie to my biggest goals? And some of those things on my to-do list, without that thought process, need to get moved off. There's a don't-do list, I suppose. And I know I certainly need that don't-do list, so I've got the bandwidth to do what matters. Yeah. I still remember as a kid learning the do, dump, delegate, the three Ds. Do I do it? Do I dump it? Or do I delegate it? So let's take that a step further. How does failure teach success? I feel very strongly about this topic, Brad. And I can think of a moment where it really hit me how important that question is, that topic is.

8:25I had a chance to meet the late Dr. W. Edwards Deming. This was some 30 years ago now. I was in my early career and he was in his 90s. He would pass away the next year. But I had a chance to have a conversation with him. And, you know, he's someone that not everyone recognizes today. This was 30 years ago, but he was this iconic global figure in the quality movement. So, you go into any manufacturing environment, most service environments, you're going to see his principles at work. So, I'm this young guy having this conversation. I asked him, Dr. Deming, what's one thing you would change? All the organizations you've worked with over your lifetime, if you could snap your fingers.

9:10What would you change? I'll never forget. There was no hesitation in his response. He had this booming low voice. He said, Brad, drive out the fear. Drive out the fear. And I nodded my head like I got it. And handedly, I really didn't at the time. And my consulting work with organizations since then, I've sat with thousands of employees. I'll hear these great ideas and I'll ask them, hey, that sounds great to me. Have you brought that up? No, I'm kind of new here. Or I think we've got a team that does that. So Brad, there's a fear. There's a barrier. And I'm convinced that's what Dr. Deming was referring to.

9:51The most innovative organizations, there's this intentional mindset that if we're not failing, we're not trying. That's true for us individually. It's true for our organizations. And I've even seen awards in the most innovative companies around the biggest failure of the year. You know, not the dumb kind because you didn't do your homework, of course, but the kind where someone put themselves out there to really move the ball down the field. And that's the drive and initiative that fuels our future. So failure is critical. And I was I've been so grateful for that conversation early in my career because I've had a different perspective on it than I think I probably otherwise would have.

10:34Yeah. Deming, such a genius. His whole thing around most failures are system failures, not people failures. Totally changed my perspective on business. We're on the Big Success Podcast. We got Brad Cleveland. We're going to get into the customer experience stuff in a moment because that's where he's a genius. Let's keep it. Keep learning. Keep listening. We'll be back in a moment. In 30 minutes a day for 30 days, 30X Business will take you through the exact hard-won business principles that Brad Sugars has personally developed over the past 30 years as an entrepreneur, investor, and business advisor.

11:08Join Brad and his team and 100 other entrepreneurs who want to start building a successful business today. All right, we're back with Brad Cleveland leading the customer experience. Brad, can I first ask, when did we shift or did we shift from customer service to customer experience? that's a great question customer experience has always been the the biggest envelope big umbrella um every um everything we do as an organization everything our customers hear about us their their perceptions of us how they feel about our brand customer experience is the big umbrella customer service supports customer experience it's not in and of itself customer experience, but what we can learn from customer service certainly fuels customer experience.

11:58You know, how can we improve products and services and all of that? So I think the shift's really been in terminology, but the principles have always been there. Yeah. One of the things you said, it was either on an interview or on a blog somewhere, was that it's sort of that customer service seems to be reactive, whereas customer experience is really about being proactive. Teach me more about that. Yeah, the idea with customer, so customer experience, some would say it's a failure. Anytime we need to provide customer experience or customer service, rather, I don't see it that way, Brad. We're always going to have a need for customer service, but we definitely need to learn from it.

12:41So I work with a company that provides consumer products. They're like, well, customer service can't do a whole lot for us. We have commodities. You can get this stuff from a lot of sources. So their customer service team began to challenge that and look at drivers. One of the things they found that 11 % of the contacts they were getting from customers on one of their spray cleaning products was because the cap was hard to remove. So you buy it, you take it home, force the cap off, and all too often shear off the spray nozzle. So they took that out to their packaging supplier and said, hey, here's what we're learning.

13:16Can we fix it? And so they redesigned the cap and those contacts went away. They've since inspired their customer service team has inspired new product lines. They're working with marketing on messaging. So customer service is after the fact unless we learn from it. And then we can be on the front end of things, really, really be impacting customer experience. Love it. So how do we succeed at the customer experience? we've got a we've got to have a vision first of all that that we all um as a team can get behind so there's some great visions out there i rei come you know i could mention a whole bunch of them but the the outdoor equipment supplier rei has the mission to educate inspire and outfit for a lifetime of outdoor adventure and stewardship that's pretty close i'm you know So I'll summarize that a little bit.

14:11That's exciting. Wow, I could be the newest employee and I've got a pretty good idea what we need to do. So got to have a good vision. Then we've got to, and this sounds like a cliche, but we've got to put a process behind it. We've got to listen. I mean, like really listen. And that goes way beyond surveys because we're also over-surveyed as customers. So what are we learning as we interact with customers? What are we seeing them post on social media? What are we seeing in our operational data? You know, wait times and where they engage with us and repeat business and how much of an advocate they are for our brand.

14:54All of that's available. So we've got to really listen. And then we've got to do the hard work to design a journey. And in the long run, it's like so many things. It's a lot easier to do it this way, but we've got to initially roll up our sleeves and do the hard work to get the journey right. Just think through how are they progressing through their experience with us? There's no magic to it. I have to ask you a question there because I know for us, mapping out the customer journey for us, did we do it wrong? It seemed to take months of thinking to get that thing. You're not alone in feeling that way.

15:32You know, journey maps can be a rabbit hole. And I always encourage the Pareto's principle, get as far as fast as you can. They don't have to be perfect. In fact, perfect can be the enemy of success in this case. You can just drill down and go further and further. You need to drill down in the right areas, but your team will have a pretty good sense of, yeah, that's a pain point for customers. We really need to get that one right. That area is going pretty well. And it evolves over time. Yeah, yeah. So one of the things you teach is how to see things from the customer's viewpoint. How do we succeed at that?

16:13How to cast a wide net. So surveys, they're not going away, but we've got to look at operational data. I see, Brad, a lot of leaders, those I tend to admire most, They're out there actually rolling up their sleeves and doing the work. So including in the largest organizations out there, the late John C. Bogle, who was founder and CEO for many years of the Vanguard Group, largest mutual fund, I think, today in the U.S., he would help handle customer calls. And he's like, I never got very good at it, but wow, do I learn. So just those experiences of being out there, working the counter, handling customer calls, having those conversations, you learn so much.

17:06And definitely involve your team. I mean, especially those who are working directly with customers, they're close to what's happening. They can tell you with no hesitation where the opportunities are and where maybe some of the pain points are. Love it. You talk about the customer culture and you go through the traits of that. Give me some of those traits and why they're important to us. Yeah, you know, a big aspect of culture has to be that we're working off quality standards that we all recognize and understand. So just to use an example, running a theme park is inordinately challenging. So think Disney launching the first theme park in 1955.

17:56They came up with five quality standards that are still at work today. Is my area show ready? Am I in character? They just laid out these very simple descriptions of what we need to do to create what they called the happiest place on the planet, whatever their mantra was. so culturally we've all got to know what our quality standards are and then that's got to play out in every job role you know so many individuals feel like yeah i see our mission on the wall but what i do i'm not quite sure how that fits and and you know right away there's there's a disconnect so culture has to play out in in everything that we do as as individuals And if that disconnects there, we've got to do some hard work to get rid of it.

18:51You know, is it a misunderstanding or do we have the wrong metrics or, you know, what do we need to change? Love it. I'll tell you a quick story, Brad, on that. I was with an organization recently that their director mentioned to me, like, you know, one of my employees used to be a star with us. She's just not performing as well. I'm like, what do you mean by that? Like, how do you know? Well, she's not handling as much work. And it was in a customer service area. Her first contact resolution, what she resolves first time isn't as high as others. Well, come to find out, it didn't take a lot of digging.

19:30She was the one doing the hardest, you know, handling the hardest customer issues. And her peers were happy to transfer those things to her. So they took more time. First contact resolution wasn't as high. So the director's like, culturally, that's on me. We've got to change how I think about some of this. Yeah, yeah. The measure often is the opposite of what we need it to be. So you talk about employee engagement too with this whole customer movement. What are some of the key drivers to that employee engagement in making this a reality? Yeah, do we know how we're truly making a difference for our customers and our colleagues around us?

20:20That sense of purpose. And leverage. Does the work that I'm doing translate into some bigger decisions and some bigger innovation in the organization? So in a customer service setting, what am I learning that I know we're using to innovate with our products and services and processes? That's pretty cool. So I know I'm making a bigger difference than just that work I'm directly handling today. And I think having the right metrics, the blocking and tackling that supports us, all of that adds up. Yeah, I know when I read your book, it made me think of so many different areas. And if you could give people a bit more of an understanding of what is the consumer movement and how is that shifting in society today?

21:13You know, the expectations customers have, and I've studied this for years. Very interestingly, they aren't changing in the sense that they want us to be accessible. They want us to meet our promises. They want us to have a team that knows what they're doing and be equipped. They want us to be courteous. But the definition of what those things mean is evolving very quickly. So just being accessible. They want to interact with us in any channel, in any way that's easy. You know, make it quick, make it easy. So we've got all the, you know, mobile apps and now AI and all the capabilities around that.

21:58just make it easy for me. Courtesy is another, you know, we used to think of the social norms around that, that probably immediately come to mind. Today, it's more around, you know, do you know my history with you? Do you know what I've been through and why I have this need right now? So anticipating where things need to go to really create a great experience for me. So the good news is what customers are saying they want isn't changing so much. The more sobering part of that from a leadership perspective is we really got to make sure we're defining those things well. Yeah. Yeah. So finally, then, if we look at bringing social media and tech into the customer experience, what are you finding is the most important things we need to focus on there to be a success?

22:49social media is a great opportunity and a lot of organizations view it as as um a threat it we it is our friend if we're truly delivering great experiences you know we're going to create customer advocates who have a very big platform to share their experiences so that's true um with With AI, with any of the technology tools that we're bringing into this, view them as your friend, but definitely roll up your sleeves and do the work with your team to make sure you're creating great experiences and harnessing these tools. Don't go after the shiny objects. Do go after how can they enable your brand to shine through and for you to really create differentiated great experiences for your customer.

23:43Perfect. You're with Brad Cleveland. We're going to be back in just a moment. We're going to look at how we go from good to great in that customer experience. Brad Cleveland is known globally for his expertise in customer experience, customer service, and leadership. He has worked across 45 states and in over 60 countries, and his clients have included American Express, Apple, the University of California, the federal governments of the U.S., Canada, and Australia, and others. In fact, Brad has consulted or facilitated training in over 70 % of the companies that have the top net promoter score in their sectors.

24:17To learn more about Brad Cleveland, go to bradcleveland.com. All right, Brad Cleveland is the guy when it comes to customer experience. Brad, you said it earlier, good can sometimes be the enemy of great. What do you see as a difference between companies that do good in customer experience and companies do great at it? You know, if there's one word that comes to mind, it's leverage. And I'll give you a quick example. I was working with an organization that makes business software systems recently, and they have a tech support environment that helps customers get unstuck and, you know, anything that tech support does.

25:00and their VP of service was worried that one of their agents had a spent twice as long helping customers as everybody else so if everyone spent that long helping customers we'd go broke we'll come to find out this was the person who absolutely loved his work he had he had customer emails printed out and tacked to his his wall you know thanks for the great service so it's a conundrum. What do you do? And it really came down to what is everybody's understanding of what we're supposed to do? What's our value that we're contributing? What they ended up doing is taking what he was trying to do on a one-off basis and creating processes around it.

25:45Hey, did you know about this feature in our software? Well, now they've got a whole series of videos that go through product features. They've got a customer community that they've launched that their tech support operation helps moderate. All very cool, but it's process-wide, not just what he was doing as an individual. So look for leverage in every job role, everything you're doing. How can you make that go further for you? So let's broaden that subject just a little bit. You've worked with so many companies. What's the difference between someone who thinks good and someone who thinks great?

26:26Is there a difference? What's your perception of that? You can start and run a coffee shop or you can become Starbucks. And you have to think about how much additional work is going to be required to become a global icon. And in a lot of cases, We build the right team around us. You can work your tail off doing that one shop in your local community. So I think the big difference is how can we make the biggest impact? You know, what's our opportunity? And I don't want to say responsibility to be everything we can be and make the biggest impact. And I'm not saying if you have a single restaurant, single coffee shop, you do You've got a flower shop.

27:23You've got something you're passionate about and you want one. That's fine. But if you've got that nagging, you know, could we do more? Could I do more? That's probably something to go after. Yeah. Love that answer. Love it. All right. Let's dive into this. How do you break the cycle of good? How do you smash that and say, okay, we got to stop being good. We got to go for great because it's easy to settle for good. You know, the formula, Brad, that you use for businesses, which is so good at pointing out the levers. How do we grow? I think there's that kind of principle involved. So what are the levers?

28:12We're good at what we do right now. if we were to move this dial a little bit, what would that mean to us? So you start putting out those possibilities for your team and for yourself. You think, wow, maybe there is more that we can go after. And that begins to redefine what good is and what great might look like. Yeah. Love it. All right. Let's get to the quick fire round. I want to ask you for your short, sharp thoughts on this. How do you succeed at goal setting? You set the right goals and so they've got to be anchored in your calling, but then you've got to think really hard about what that looks like on a day-to-day basis, the cadence, the rhythm of your daily schedule.

29:05Got it. How do you succeed at self-development, like growing yourself? you know you hear often do the reading do the do the learning i i agree with that but i feel like we have to be very intentional because there's so much clutter out there you can read till the cows come home and there's a lot of clickbait and clutter that's not very helpful so so put some thought into who are the sources you're really learning from do they have a demonstrated track record. So this one, I can't wait to get your answer. How do you succeed at relationships? You know, people are so, everybody's so interesting. Everybody has a story.