Self Development - How You Can Overcome Self-Doubt and Achieve Your Goals w/ Laura Gassner Otting

0:00When my publisher texted me and said number two right behind Michelle Obama Washington Post bestseller list. All I could think of was number two. What does it take to be number one? Laura Gasner-Otting. She delivers in spades. Success, happiness, wonder. We're going to go through all the different stages of how success happens and how it happens for you. My favorite Eleanor Roosevelt quote is, We would worry much less about what other people thought about us if we realized how seldomly they did. Let's get into success with Laura Gasner-Otting. So, Laura, what's your definition then of success?

0:38So I get asked this question a lot, as you might imagine, given what I talk about. And for me, I think there are two numbers. There is the need to make number and there is the want to make number. And I think the need to make number is how much money we need for our mortgage, put our kids in school, food on the table, vacations, et cetera. But the want to make number is like how fancier the vacation is going to be. How many are you going to take? Are you giving back to your community? How often? So for me, my definition of success is that everything in between the need to make number and the want to make number comes purely out of joy and curiosity and not out of the ego.

1:13Dang. How did you get there? Like, I'm sure as a 20 year old girl starting out in the careers and study and everything. How did you get to that definition? Yeah, well, some of it is because I made my way through the FU 40s, as my grandmother used to call them. So I'm 53 now. So I've been around the block a few times. I've raised teenagers who are now in college. I've raised a husband. I've been around. I've been married for 26 years. I've got some miles on the wheels. And so I think after a while, you start asking yourself, well, I did all these things. I filled in all the boxes and the boxes are all full, but I feel empty.

1:57Why is that? And so often it's because we're doing all of this for other people. We're filling out everyone else's checkboxes on their definition of success. And after a certain time, you kind of realize, well, I could keep banging my head against that wall over and over and over again and have the same result, right? The definition of madness. Or I could change something. And once you start changing things and surrounding yourself with different people who have different goals, you get a bigger and a broader and a vaster perspective. So for me, it just came from starting to do things that actually brought me joy, that made me happy, that were success in my definition and realizing that I actually worked harder for them.

2:37I tried more. I went back to the well over and over again because I actually cared about it. And if you can't be insatiably hungry for someone else's goals, well, what can you be insatiably hungry for? And for me, it was all those things that were driven by joy and curiosity. And I started to notice a pattern. So where do you feel like success became your standard? Like, did you choose success as a kid? Was there, did your family bring up? Where did success become your thing? Oh, see, I think everybody gets handed that definition. Like, every one of us gets handed a definition, the scorecard of success.

3:11And we put it in our back pocket. We don't even know when we get it. Right. But like for me, the first like actual conscious memory I have of that definition was my fourth grade teacher telling me that I was super argumentative and that I'd make a good lawyer. And I remember thinking, well, I mean, the first thing I said to her, of course, was I think you're wrong because, of course, I was argumentative, right? But after that, you know, I went home that night and like L.A. Law's on, Ally McBeal, like there are all these, you know, law and order shows that make law look really sexy and attractive and exciting.

3:45And so I was like, okay, that, like that was the definition of success. Like they're rich, they make a lot of money. They're, you know, fighting crime. They're doing all kinds of, you know, they're helping everyone. It seemed exciting. And then over time, we keep getting handed those definitions. Like you get grades in school. Is it a good grade or a bad grade? If you're dating somebody, do your parents approve of them or do they not, right? Is it a good person for you or a bad person for you? Do you get into a college? Is it a good college, a bad college, So at every age and at every stage, we keep getting handed these, you know, these report cards, if you will, but literally and metaphorically.

4:22And and they seep into our subconscious and we start defining ourselves by everyone else's definition of success. Right. Like I dated a nice Jewish boy. He was a medical student. He came from a good family. My grandmother was thrilled. Like she couldn't wait to tell her Mahjong group about like, oh, you mean my daughter? Laura, the one who married the nice Jewish doctor, right? Like she couldn't wait. But the problem was every time I kissed this boy, all I could think of was like milk, butter, cheese, eggs. Like I had no spark with him. And my grandmother would be like, Laura, you just need to concentrate, right?

4:56But like, so her definition of success would not have worked for me. And at all of us in every part of our lives have these definitions, whether we realize them or not. So what is your formula for success? If you have a formula or what are the things that need to be there for success to happen? Okay, so I think that people should not be pursuing quote unquote success, just success writ large, because we tend to let that be defined by other people. when I spent 20 years in executive search and my job in executive search was to call the most successful people on the planet and recruit them away on behalf of my clients, which sounds like a hard job.

5:36I was calling them because they were super successful, but it actually wasn't that hard of a job because despite all this quote unquote success, they weren't very happy. So they all called me back. And what I started to realize is that the people who I couldn't recruit, and there were not any of them. The people who I could not recruit, they tended to have four specific things. They had calling, connection, contribution, and control. Hang on, say those four for me again. Self-help. Calling? Yeah, so calling, connection, contribution, and control. I'll define each of them. I call that package consonance.

6:12It's alignment. It's flow. It's when what you do matches who you are. So consonants is made up of calling. What is the gravitational force that gets you out of bed in the morning? The leader who you want to serve, the societal ill that you want to solve, the business that you want to build, the family you want to nurture, right? Like what is the thing that you care about? Number two, connection. What is in your calendar, your email box, your to-do list? And does that stuff get you closer to or farther from your calling? Number three, contribution. Connection's all about the work. Contribution's all about you.

6:48So does this work contribute to the kind of life you want to live, the lifestyle you'd like to have, right, in between the want to make and the need to make number, the way you want to show up in the world, how you manifest your values? How does this work contribute to your life? And then control is how much personal agency do you have over how much the work connects to your calling and how much contributes to your life. So do you have a say in the teams to which you're assigned, the metrics by which you're measured, the prospects that you're given, the hours you work, the environment that you work in?

7:20And so all four of these things are necessary components of consonants, which when you have it, then gives you both success and happiness. And the trick is that everybody's definition is different. So your definition of consonants, how much calling, connection, contribution, or control you need will be different than mine. But also your definition today is different than your definition was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 10 years from now. But what happens is when we're 15, 16, 17 years old, somebody says, pick a path, pick a major, pick a career, pick a trade, pick a college. And you go, okay.

7:55But what you don't have when you're 15, 16, 17 years old is a frontal lobe, like the actual part of your brain that dictates good, sound, logical decision making. And so we're asked to make these decisions that are going to affect the rest of our lives. And we literally don't have the capacity to make a good one. But nobody ever says, and by the way, you get to evolve and change and redefine what success means to you. Yeah. I know with my kids, I sort of sit there and say, listen, what do you want the first 10 years of your life to look like? Not your whole life. What do you want to do first? And it makes it an easier decision for them.

8:28What do you want to try? You know, is a big question. with success there's there's all people have different opinions around success and failure what's your theory on the relationship between the two i love that question because we are told we are taught that failure is finale it's like you're gonna fail it's the end of the road it's gonna be embarrassing everybody's gonna see and you're gonna be the laughing stock okay first of all my favorite eleanor roosevelt quote is which is like picking a favorite child right you just brilliant woman, is we would worry much less about what other people thought about us if we realized how seldomly they did.

9:09Nobody is paying attention. Nobody sees. That's why we think everyone is an overnight success because we're not paying attention to the weeks and the days and the months and the years that they're doing the work all alone in the dark when nobody can see. So we think everybody is magical and we're completely flawed when in fact other people are just working harder. So number one, nobody's paying attention. Don't worry about it. We're all a bunch of narcissists with the memories of fruit flies. So we don't have to worry about any of that. So that's the first thing. The second thing is everybody says, do what you do.

9:42What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? That's your passion. And I'm like, no, what would you do if you knew for sure you would fail? And yet you would do it over and over and over until you got it right. Doesn't it feel much more like success if you worked for something you really cared about, and then you finally perfected it than if you just did something easy the first time? I think, I personally think that the journey is really what we need to be focusing on and not the end point. Because, you know, you get to the end point, like I interviewed a woman who climbed Mount Everest and I was like, oh my God, when you got to the top, did you celebrate?

10:20Was it amazing? Do you have a party up there? And she was like, what are you talking about? You literally take out your phone, you take a selfie, and then you get the hell out of there because otherwise you're going to lose oxygen and die. So you have to be excited about the process because the end point is just this one little point in time, whereas the process is really what your life's going to be all about. You're on the Big Success Podcast. We're here with Laura, and we're going to get into what makes happiness and success work together, or do they? business empires are where most people create the vast majority of their initial income and wealth through brad sugars is entrepreneurs event you will learn how to turn your companies into valuable and sellable assets visit bradsugars.com to attend this program as a standalone or as part of brad sugars is entrepreneurial university so laura you achieve something the mount everest thing all of that and you coined a wonderful phrase one to hell Explain that relationship for me.

11:19Okay. So what I talked about in the first part of the show, consonants was really the anchoring idea of my first book, Limitless. How do we create a change in our career, ourselves, our workplace in order to have both success and happiness. And here's what happened. That book debuted at number two on the Washington post bestseller list, which was amazing, Amazing, except for the fact that I did not expect it whatsoever. I had done all of this work to try to launch the book, having no platform whatsoever. And all of a sudden it debuts at number two. And I was so exhausted by the work that it took to go into this launch of the book that the part of my brain that dictated humility was like nowhere to be found.

12:01And when my publisher texted me and said, number two, right behind Michelle Obama, Washington Post bestseller list, all I could think of was number two. What does it take to be number one? Right. Because I achieved something I never thought I would achieve. It was amazing. It was magical. It was marvelous. It was wonderful. And also in that moment, I saw a version of myself. Well, if I got to be able to do that, what else can I do? That suddenly I couldn't unsee. And I wanted it. I really wanted it. Like I didn't even know I wanted it. And suddenly I wanted it. And then I was filled with doubt and uncertainty and imposter syndrome.

12:42Like, am I allowed to want it? Is okay to want it? I'm no Michelle Obama. Like, who am I? Like, I'm just lucky I got this. But I still couldn't get out of my head. So the burden of my potential sat on my shoulders and was like, okay, Laura, what else you got for me? It was amazing. It was magical. It was marvelous. It was wonderful. But it was also kind of hell. I had to deal with the anxiety and the dread and the fear and the exhaustion, the burnout that comes with now, how do I fill out my own burden of potential? How do I live up to that? It was wonderful. It was hell. It was kind of wonder hell.

13:17So I think this is the area where we reach this moment of success and suddenly we're like, okay, I've now found my definition. I'm now pursuing my definition. Why am I still not happy? And it's because we continue to see what else we're made of. And we have to make that decision of whether or not we're going to go for it or maybe let it pass us by. You know, I was chatting with my daughter yesterday about, you know, setting goals and all of that sort of stuff. And she was like, well, dad, I was with the financial planner this morning. I said, what did you learn? And she said, I learned that I don't know very much.

13:53And it was like, it's that thing of what is it about us, Laura, that says when we get to, like, we get to the corner and we see around the corner and now we go, wow, I can also have all of these things that how do we just say, this is great, I'm good? Or is that a possibility? Oh, I think it's absolutely a possibility. So the way that Wonder Hell, which is the book I wrote then when I found myself in this moment, right? I interviewed a hundred different glass ceiling shatterers, Olympic medalists, startup unicorns, everyday people like me and you to figure out how do I get out of Wonder Hell? Like there has to be a way to survive this moment.

14:31And what I learned, much to my chagrin, but also much to my liberation, is that you don't actually get out of wonder hell because every time you accomplish something, you find yourself back in it over and over and over again. So you have to learn not just to survive wonder hell, but to thrive in it. And one of the ways you thrive in it is to say, I'm good right now. So wonder hell is actually designed as an amusement park. and I'll explain why when I wrote limitless it was like okay you've been given someone else's definition of success you need to find your own now that you have your own how are you going to change yourself your workplace your career to get there was a very linear path but with wonder how every one of us no matter where we are in our journey find ourselves in a different place some of us have doubt some of us imposter syndrome some of us fear some of us burn out some of us uncertainty like every time every new level brings a new devil but there was no direct linear path path of which devil came first.

15:26They're all sort of like chaos monkeys. They just decide to come whenever they want to come, some two and three at a time. So it was sort of like an amusement park where you go in and you can decide to go to whatever town you want to go first and ride on whatever rides you want to go on first. So the book is organized into three sections, Impostor Town, Doubtville, and Burnout City, each of which has five rides. And each one of those rides emulates an emotion that you're going to feel in it. And the very first ride of Burnout City is the merry-go-round when you've just decided to like slow it down a little, chill out, like I'm good right now.

15:58And I interviewed somebody in that chapter who said, look, you know, I started my business because I want to have flexibility and freedom. I want to be there for my kids. And every time we achieve something, I had all of the strategists come to me saying like, you got to grow bigger, better, faster, more. And then I would say, okay, what does it look like? And they would say, well, you're going to have to lean in. You're going to have to nose to the grindstone. You're not going to see your family for years, but it's going to be great on the other side. And he was like, nah, man, I'm good. I've got two young kids and kids spell love, T-I-M-E.

16:31And I'm just going to hang out where I am right now for a while. And then when the kids are like, dad, you're an old fart. I don't want to hang out with you anymore. Then I'll grow the business. And so we can all make these decisions depending again on what our own definition is at that moment in time and our own personal lives. Success and happiness, relationship, how do you explain that? So for me, I find myself at my happiest when I feel, when I am trying to master something new, right? Like when I'm getting, Whitney Johnson talks about the beginner's mindset, it's this S curve, where you start in the S and it's flat and it's hard, you don't know what you're doing, you're messing up nonstop, and it just doesn't feel very good.

17:15And then you kind of get this little like upswing where the S, you know, sort of comes up and, and you're figuring it out and you're like, yeah, I got this. I got this. Like, all right, I'm starting to crush it. Like I figured out what I'm doing. And then you get to the top and it plateaus again, and you don't really learn a lot more. You're sort of doing the same thing over and over again. I ran my search firm for 15 years and at the 10 year mark, I was like, all right, I solved all the possible problems. Like there's not that much new. Every client comes to us and is like, our problem is so unique.

17:42And I'm like, it's unique to you, but not to me, which like good news for you, I can solve your problem. But also it kind of got a little boring after a while. And I knew that's when I needed to leave. I knew that's when I needed to sell the firm to my team. So for me, when I'm on that sort of upswing and I'm starting to feel success, I haven't figured it out completely, but I'm pretty close to figuring it out and still innovating on the solution. That's where I am at my happiest. Other people might say, I am risk averse. I like to be at the top. I like to know exactly what I'm doing. Some people like to be like, I love a completely blank whiteboard where I have nothing.

18:18I don't know what's next. Everybody's definition is going to be different. And I think it's at different points in your life. So for me, my kids are in college. I'm an empty nester. I can have more chaos in my work right now because the rest of my life is very quiet. So I really think it's looking at the sort of holistically, like what's happening in your relationships, in your health, in your business, in the world, so that you're getting what you need from the work that you're doing to allow the rest of your life to flourish. It's not this sort of work-life balance, but really work-life alignment.

18:52So how do people answer the debate in their head then of success bringing happiness? I think that we have been told, honestly, I think they've been lied to, right? Everybody has said, if you're successful, I grew up in the 80s, right? Lifestyles of the rich and famous. If you just earn enough, if you have enough, big enough house, big enough car, small enough clothes, right? All of those things, you will finally be happy. Right house, right spouse, all of that stuff. And, you know, when I was coming up, it was sort of like, you're a doctor, you're a lawyer, you're a teacher, you're an accountant, you're a mechanic, like you are a insert box here, check, we can define you.

19:34Like podcaster didn't exist, right? So somebody once asked me the dumbest question ever on a podcast, I think is what advice would you give your 22 year old self? And the reason I think that advice is bad is because it first of all, my 22 year old self would not have listened to an old 53 year old woman at all, right? She'd be making fun of her clothes. But what advice would I give my 22-year-old self who's listening to a podcast on her iPhone and it was recorded on the internet, like none of those things existed when I was 22. So even if we know ourselves, which we don't at that point, the world around us changes so much.

20:13And so I think the people who I see who have both success and happiness do live in this place of consonants where they really understand what is the problem that they want to solve? What are the skills that they have that they can bring to bear to solve that problem? And are they being rewarded in a way that is interesting to them, whether it's financially, emotionally, karmically, whatever, for solving that problem? And the people who are living in that space, that's really where you find people who are feeling successful, feeling fulfilled. And again, whatever way they define it, you know, being successful might be that you're home every night at six o 'clock to have dinner with your kids, right?

20:56Being successful might be that you never work in the nights or the weekends. Being successful might mean that you're working 80 hours a week and you're buying a Maserati and a beach house. Like being successful might be that all that you're working in a nonprofit to cure cancer, or you're making tons of money and donating to cure cancer. It can be anything. And, and I think the problem is that we get, um, we get a little tied up in purpose shaming, right? Like, yeah, you're successful, but like, are you giving back or, well, you're giving back, but are you really making any money? Are you getting yourself out of debt?

21:27Everyone's got a yeah, but. And I think we got to get rid of the purpose shaming because we're giving votes to people in our lives who shouldn't even have voices. You're on the Big Success Podcast. We're going to be back with Laura. We're going to dive deeper into wonder hell when we come back. Author, catalyst, and executive coach Laura Gasner-Odding inspires people to push past the doubt and indecision that keep great ideas in limbo by helping audiences think bigger and accept greater challenges that reach beyond their current limited scope of belief. To learn more about Laura Gasner-Odding, please visit lauragasnerodding.com.

22:02All right, Laura, one to hell. Phenomenally fun book, amusement rides galore. When you found yourself there and you started interviewing everyone around this place, as you'd call it now the amusement park that you can hang out. And by the way, I feel almost like I go back and read Dr. Seuss's Oh, The Places You Go when I'm in Wonder Hell. It's like it's a similar dang feeling type thing. Yes, yes. What was it that led you to this theory that maybe it's just somewhere we got to stay and hang out in and learn through or grow through type thing? Yeah, actually, it's an interesting story. So Wonder Hell was really born out of my need to find my way out of it.

22:49But I didn't even I didn't start with a theory, which I know is how like, you know, most research and science works. Start with a theory. You do some research, you prove the theory or you don't. What happened was the pandemic. And I started just going live on social media, on Facebook to my community every day at 10 a.m. Eastern time. And I would just blather on about something that was happening for like 10 or 20 minutes just to like feel community and just sort of be an upstander and just talk about like what everybody's going through. Here's what I'm going through. I see you. I am you. We're all in this together.

23:21And then after about, I'd say three weeks of it, I got really sick of my own voice. I am just enough of me already. And I thought, okay, I have lots of other friends because of what I do for a living, write books and give keynote speeches, I meet a lot of really interesting people in the green room, people with wildly more interesting stories than mine. And I thought, well, why don't I just talk to them? Because they're busy trying to create content also, so I could just do us all a favor and just interview them. So I started having conversations with other people. And I hate small talk. So I started like a little podcast that I call Big Talk because I hate small talk.

23:59And every Tuesday and Thursday, I just found somebody who was super interesting first female F-14 fighter pilot or somebody who created, you know, a business to, you know, I don't know, to manage rental homes, like whatever the thing was that I found. And I just started talking to them about their story. Again, I spent 20 years in executive search. So understanding somebody's story, why they do what they do, like, I don't care so much about why somebody wants to increase shareholder value. That's like a two minute conversation. but there's always a parent or a coach or a mentor or a disease, a diagnosis, a world event.

24:37There's something that puts somebody on a path. And to hear that story about who they are and why they are and what they do and what they care deeply about for me is like catnip. Like I was like, I want to hear these stories. So I started having the conversations. And then I started noticing that every single person found themselves in this place, this like, and everything changed moment. And that everything changed moment was when they found themselves in wonder hell. And they had to decide whether they were going to live into this potential that they discovered about themselves or whether they were going to let it go.