177. How to Make Your Brand So Magnetic They Stop Scrolling ft. Erica Mallett

27:01Fuck that. Like if I really want to achieve everything I want to achieve and like get my dream life all of that is behind me being cringe on the internet taking my camera to the fucking gym because I'm getting chirped right now for taking my camera big ass tripod my fx3 like I got the whole setup and people are chirping me I'm like I don't give a fuck because I'm I'm blowing this thing up so yeah damn right I mean I think as someone who works in this space I'm probably a bit biased but I can't understand why people wouldn't realize that that's the way of the future You know, like it's only clearer to me as the days go on and there are layoffs of massive companies and AI workforces and not to sound alarmist or anything, but I really do think there's a premium on perspective and taste.

27:47And that is what building a personal brand is about. And if you want to live a life that is extraordinary and interesting and fulfilling and purposeful, I really can't imagine why you wouldn't want to delve a little deeper into your identity and understand how to communicate that. and yeah you're spot on about um the haters who hate from the base camp of cringe mountain doesn't matter what are your thoughts in the next six to 12 months with all of this ai content popping onto our feeds with sora becoming a thing and with you know these videos are crazy these oh yeah these sora feeds popping up do you feel like we're going to see a shrinkage of brand deals and more of an expansion of like a creator business where it's like, you know, I'm going to Erica because she's going to teach me about X, Y, or like, this is her thing.

28:38Or I'm going to go to Kosan Brady because they know a lot about this. Like, and I want to learn from these people, not from, you know, I don't know what other, you know, like if you, you can ask chat GBT, but it doesn't, it doesn't help you if you don't know what to even ask it. Right. What do you feel like that's going to look like in the next six to 12 months from creative people monetizing online or someone trying to monetize what they know online? Do you think that's going to switch up? Do you think it's going to stay the same? I'm just curious what your thoughts are on the kind of the forecast.

29:05I think that content that is purely informational and educational, it will be hard for creators who make that kind of content to continue monetizing in the way that they have because that's what AI tools do really well, right? They take the knowledge that is out there and the dots that have been connected already and then they deliver that in a way that is interesting. so people in that category I think will have trouble in the next 6 to 12 months but I think that people who can differentiate and also really drill down on the emotion that their brand represents and how they make people feel those are the creators that are going to be I think onwards and upwards from here because that is the thing that is hard for AI to replicate at the moment anyway, I'll never say never.

29:55But at the moment, if you have a crystal clear differentiation, an understanding of your unique skill set of your tone of voice, of how you make people feel, that's something that can't at this stage be replicated. You brought up in one of your YouTube videos that you feel like we're moving away from the attention economy and we're moving more into the connection economy. Can you break that down for our audience and like what that actually means in practice? Yeah, 100%. So I'm a big fan of Gary Vee, obviously, but I think he wrote a book called Day Trading Attention. And I love the guy, but I think it's a sign of how quickly the last few years have moved because I don't think attention is the biggest asset anymore.

30:33It is connection. And what I mean is that all of this AI slop on our feeds can get attention. It understands, like people making these things, understand how to grab someone, but how to connect with someone is a lost art. and I can run you through some strategies of what I mean in terms of connecting with people rather than just getting their attention if you like. Yeah please. Okay so what you could call this is like I've seen this term like dark psychology branding tactics online which I guess you could you could say that's what this is but really getting people's connection rather than their attention is a about building a belief-based brand and a belief-based content strategy which I've taken you through.

31:18But B, one strategy that I really love is called the enemy effect, which is uniting your audience against an ideological enemy. And what this does is it creates an in-group and an out-group. Again, it speaks to belonging. If you can make people feel like it's us versus them. I know this sounds very negative, but it isn't only used in negative ways. For example, someone who does use it, I guess, in negative ways is like Andrew Tate. He speaks about the matrix. That's his enemy. So he says it's us versus the matrix and we have to do X, Y, and Z. That's an example of, from my perspective, Andrew Tate using it in a negative way, but a positive way could be someone like Taylor Swift.

32:04Her enemy is the cool girl. and you know this speaks to the feeling of being left out and othered and anyone who feels like they've never been in the cool group this unites those people together and makes them feel like they have a place to finally belong so the first one is the enemy effect it is crazily effective at making people connect with you if you can explain to them that it's us versus the enemy then that's a connection straight away. So that's strategy one. Can you give them like a specific example of how someone could bring the enemy effect if they aren't Taylor Swift or Andrew Tate take, I don't know, maybe a gardener who wants to make gardening content, or, um, I guess like a, like when I think of maybe somebody making fitness content, maybe the enemy is, you know, eating unhealthy and not living a healthy lifestyle, but take, can we take maybe some more like nuanced, um, niches maybe and give some examples for how they can bring in the enemy effect?

33:06Yeah, absolutely. Why don't you maybe name a niche and I'll see if I can find an enemy that would be interesting and nuanced. I like the gardening one. Okay, gardening. So you could choose bugs as your enemy. You know, these little critters that get around in your garden and your whole brand is about trying to build an organic garden that is free of bugs. Or your enemy could be these big corporation gardening stores, because they have products imported from China, none of them are handcrafted, none of them are made with any intention. So your enemy is, you know, the big corporations. Or an enemy could be, you know, wintertime.

33:48And the whole brand is around how to garden in winter, because that is the tension. And how do we keep growing vegetables and eat throughout winter? So you can see that it's it really can be anything, but it speaks a lot to who you're going to attract and the kind of brand and content you're making as a result.

34:08Erica Mallett:Erica, I love this game. This is like it's so eye opening. And going back to your point about kind of having an enemy, I think that that's that's been used by all of our like our NFL teams, our NBA teams, like all of these large, these large scale teams it's like you go into arena when i was working for the lakers and i went to boston i remember walking through the gates and i remember the team on the bus was like it's your first time in boston like the people i worked with i'm like yeah i'm really excited to see the arena it's like the garden it's like very famous very excited and like oh no it's not gonna be fun it's gonna suck and i'm like why is it gonna suck like you know it's the garden let's feel like this is gonna be like a great time like no no this arena is unlike anything you've ever experienced on the road and And I'm like, how bad could it be?

34:53Because you go to all these arenas in the Midwest. People are pretty nice. They're like, oh, what's up? You're with the Lakers. Like, welcome to town. Like, I remember walking out of the thing and there was like a really young kid, maybe 10 or 11 years old. And it's just like double birds right as you walk out the door. And I was like, holy shit, we're here. And you actually do here. I remember walking on the concourse like, fuck you, like go back to LA. and like you're saying it's like you know they've kind of built up these rivalries you know against one another and it's like a tribal thing of like we're with this team you're not here you're not from this part of town like we're from boston we grew up we're tough you know this is like who we are and i think that it's so interesting to kind of bring someone's personality into their content because that is something that would make someone totally be into another person be like oh well they came from a place like I came from, or they came from like a, not like, you know, silver platter upbringing.

35:49They came from a more difficult upbringing. That's why I relate to them. So I, I don't have a question there, just more of a statement with what you were saying. A hundred percent. It's all about the tension. Again, back to the psychology of it. It's how we're wired. We are wired for tension. That's why every good story starts with conflict. Every good TV show starts with conflict. Like you'll never find a book that starts where the characters not in a place of conflict in the beginning. It's just the way that it works. So if you can become an expert at finding the tension and then explaining that to people, that is one way that they will connect with you.

36:26I can guarantee it. Yeah. You almost like, uh, when I think of an enemy, I think of just like a single person, but it's almost like an ideology that you're against. It goes as it's kind of, it's kind of like when we were starting the pod, when we were so focused on cameras i mean our running joke was like shitting on the nikon brand like that was like a running joke right and like i remember meeting people and even this last weekend we were in we were in charlotte and one of the gals that was helping us out his as like a long term listener of the pod and we met someone out in public i would never say this to someone's face because i don't really like it doesn't really matter it's just more of like a funny bit but he's like yeah i use a nikon and she looked at me and i was like don't say anything right now bro I'm like, you're going to make me laugh.

37:11And this random dude's like, what's so funny about my camera? I'll be like, nothing, nothing. But it's like, yeah, we were just jokingly hating on this brand. And a lot of people were, you know, were in on it in like the camera world. It was like a funny thing to like hate on Nikon. Still is funny to hate on Nikon. Nikon still sucks. But, you know, it was like, that's a perfect example of like what you're saying. And it has nothing to do with like, you know, a person, you know? No, it's not. Yeah. And I think that's so good to clarify that. When I say the enemy, I think people do think a person, but that's not what this is about.

37:42It's about an ideology. It's about a concept. It's about something out there that is bigger than you. And by way of choosing something that's bigger than you, you also get to be the underdog, which is another way that you connect to audiences is be the underdog and have them rooting for you. So, yes, I think that when used, it depends who uses this. It can be used for good. it can be used for evil. It is a very powerful strategy. And I'll give it to the people because I think that this is what the big brands and the biggest politicians are using. And I think that more creators who are good hearted and good intentions should be using the enemy effect for good.

38:24From watching your stuff too, like I've been looking, I've watched every single video on your YouTube channel, but from that moment of watching all your stuff, I'm looking at everyone's like thumbnails and titles a little bit differently. And on the topic of the enemy, I saw someone in the fitness space was like, keto is absolute horseshit. And that's another example of like what you're saying. They're taking like a stance where you have so many people that are using keto and really liking it. And they're like, wait a minute, like, why does this person hate it? And then they go and they watch that video and they watch it till the very end.

38:52And then they probably comment and be like, hey, you're an idiot. And they're like, I love it. Bring it on. Like, bring it on. We love this. That's so interesting. That's a really interesting example as well, because you can, you can have an overall brand enemy. So say, let's use this for an example, maybe that person's overall brand enemy is fads, like fitness fads would be the name of the enemy. And then you can have the overall enemy and then micro enemies within that fad. So maybe each of their videos is just taking on a different fad. So we've got keto, we've got intermittent fasting, we've got blah, blah, blah.

39:23And it kind of gives like a bit of a compass for your entire content strategy is finding the tensions within the enemy and then coming at those. And I think also, you know, when I talk to a lot of people about the enemy effect, they go, but I don't want to be negative. And first of all, I don't think the enemy effect is necessarily negative, but I hear that. What I say to that is by way of defining the enemy, you actually get to defined the hero as well. So if back to the gardening example, if we say the enemy is these big gardening stores, these corporations, they're the enemy, then who's the hero?

40:02Maybe it's the little gardening store down the road, the one that is founder owned. So one thing that you can do is instead of coming at the enemy, you can come for the hero. And that is also a way that you connect with people. I want to go back to the underdog thing. And I'm curious because how can someone position themselves and utilize the underdog story if they're also positioned as like an authority in their space and they've done the thing and they've like made it. So they're building credibility by showing that they're an authority in their space. Is there a way for that person to bring in the underdog story into their content or into their brand?

40:48I love this question. And absolutely, there is. If you think about it, Trump is an underdog. He's arguably one of the most powerful people in the world. But it's because his enemy is something that he's chosen to be bigger than him. And that is, I mean, the lamestream media is one of his enemies. Or what does he call it? The deep state is one of his enemies. These are ideological things that are big and juicy and more quote unquote powerful than him. So just by way of the dynamic, he is instantly an underdog by choosing something that is more powerful than him. So the underdog brand strategy is a very powerful strategy because we naturally will root for the underdog in any given situation.

41:31It's again, how we're wired because underdogs tell us something about ourselves. We want to see them win because it means that we could possibly win as well. So what I would say to utilize this strategy is just to choose an enemy that is bigger than you, that is more powerful than you, and that is causing pain to your target audience. That's very important. You have to be able to explicitly say, sit down, write five ways that this enemy is impacting the daily lives of your target audience. And then that is what you come for. Now you are the spokesperson, you're the protector, and you should fight to stop that enemy from hurting your audience in whatever way it is.

42:10It's so interesting hearing you break down all these ideologies because a lot of people who teach about personal brand, it's like, you just got to be authentic and show up online as yourself. And the way that you're describing it, my mind is running while listening to you, you know, listening to you talk. I'm like, oh my God, if I was to, you know, sit down and come up with these themes and select an enemy, it's like so much easier to start coming up with content ideas. And I think a lot of people who are listening to this conversation are, they're probably thinking about their personal brand or how they can go about creating content in a completely different way than they didn't originally think about.

42:51At least I know I am. Yeah. I think that be authentic is the most annoying thing that anyone could ever say. It pisses me off so much. But what is authentic? As someone who I think it took me a long time to understand myself and understand my voice and my difference. I don't know what be authentic. Like me five years ago, if you said that to me, I'd be like, but what is authentic? What am I? Who am I? I don't know. And that's why I think that it's annoying advice because it's like just skimming over the fact that this identity work, as I said at the beginning, we've got the identity and the expression.

43:28This identity work is just so vital. And if you do the identity work and then do the expression work, you'll be ahead of 99 % of people because most people just skip straight to the expression without understanding their themes, their tone of voice, their enemy, you know, their beliefs, all of this stuff. So yeah, it does make it a whole lot easier if you start with the identity and then do the expression. Do you recommend somebody starting with the identity stuff, like figuring out what their brand is before they even create a single piece of content? Or is it I can figure out the identity kind of as I go along?

44:07Can the figuring out the identity be some sort of like paralysis to starting creating content? Yes, I'll answer that. That last question first, it can, if you are prone to perfectionism and procrastination, it can be something that stops you from getting out there if you spend too long on it. But I'll say that doing, you know, the frameworks that I've mentioned And they're helpful. I've worked with creators who have 500 followers and 15 million followers. It's helpful at any stage of the journey. Because what I will say is if you start content and try and figure it out on your own, you'll probably get there eventually.

44:48But it's going to take you a lot longer if you don't do the identity work while you're going through the process. so it's helpful for anyone at any stage it shouldn't be the thing that stops you from starting just do it as you go along it's also okay to have gotten to a million subscribers and then realize that you don't know who you are or what you're doing that happens a lot a lot a lot of my clients have people at that level who want to clarify it more and differentiate what do you i got a million but i got a million but i don't know what what do you notice about creators that have made it past Cringe Mountain, maybe they're, you know, top of their space, they're doing really well, they're making really good money with it.

45:31How do they keep that fuel on the fire from yourself, from other people that you've coached from other people that you've, you know, studied online? Because Gary is kind of one of those people that has stayed very relevant since I was younger. And I think it's really interesting because many of the creators that we all know and love came into a huge popularity. And then it's almost like this bubble pops and maybe they have kids and they're not focused on it. Maybe they've made enough money and this was a means of like, you know, financial freedom. And they hit that goal and they don't have to create anymore on like a schedule.

46:06It's not no more like a nine to five job where they're showing up and posting on this weekly cadence. Right. What do you notice about them that keeps, you know, that kerosene on the fire and kind of keeps them going? I think this is a great question. I think it has a lot to do with how you define your why. And I think I listened, I'm probably going to butcher this, but I listened to a podcast at one point and I can't remember who, it's one of those things. I can't remember who said it. I can't remember which podcast, but I remember the point. and the point was the guest was saying that they had worked with people in the army um and it's a grueling you know first few months in the army you have to get through terrible terrible like training and obstacle courses and things like that and the ones that made it are the ones who had people that they were doing it for like a real reason like they had their kids they had their, they had their wife, they had their husband, whatever it is, they had something that meant something to them, that when it got really, really hard, they thought back to that thing.

47:16And it doesn't have to be a person, it just has to be a really clear purpose. And through doing the identity work, you will find that purpose. Like once you find that thing, I feel so driven, because I'm like, oh, that's my thing. I get it. The clarity, it's like the depth of my reasoning is just there and it will never not be there. And I can keep going back to it whenever I need to. And I think that that's the thing that on days that I'm completely lacking motivation, which is often, I go back to and I go, well, I've just got to do it because of that. It's irrefutable at that point. So I'd say the kerosene is the why, the deeper reason, the purpose.

48:00if someone is making content for a decent amount of time and then they're thinking to themselves like this isn't necessarily aligning with who I am or my life has changed and maybe they want to not fully change up their entire brand but maybe reposition a little bit do you have any advice on that like I'm noticing the person I am and the life that I'm living I just turned 30 now versus me at 23, 24, I was still making content online. But thinking about like the person that I was back then versus the person that I am now and the content that I was making back then versus now, completely different.

48:44It's taken me a while to like get clarity on like what kind of content I actually want to make and how I want to be perceived online and what like message I want to share, but for someone who, as they go on, I also think about myself probably at 35 or 40 is going to look a lot different than I am now. What advice do you have for that person as they continue to create content and they themselves change, but you still want to stay constant with like those themes and beliefs? Like what advice do you have for that creator to like create longevity for themselves, but they're changing a little bit, you know, as they grow.

49:24I think that often your themes won't change, but your beliefs might. So what I find with creators that I work with is if they want to change, you know, years after working together, often it's not the themes that change because if done right, that exercise is about defining the core of your being, like who you are as a person. And I think that very rarely changes. but the way you go about those themes is often what changes so I would say just keep really clued in with how those things are changing like how your beliefs about your themes are changing throughout your career and the other thing I would say is define your tone of voice and a really way an easy way to do this is just to choose three words that you filter all of your communications through.

50:14And these words also, they can change over a number of years, but I've found that they don't really change that much. So my words, for example, are strategic, observant, and irreverent. So whenever I'm creating a piece of content, I'm going, am I being strategic enough? Am I being observant enough? Am I being irreverent enough? And if yes, then that is a piece of content that represents me and it feels cohesive and on brand. So if you get clear on those things, then you can monitor them as you go throughout your career. It's always okay to change, but just change with strategy and intention. That's all I'd say.

50:49I love that. Is there a specific platform that you're really trying to hone in a lot of your attention on right now? For us, it's YouTube. YouTube is our child and it feels like, oh my God, let's just get this YouTube to keep going because it is one of the only platforms that it does pay us a consistent amount of money every month from the AdSense, which is really cool. And it wasn't something in the beginning that we were really thinking about a ton. And now it's allowed us to kind of like grow our operation and hire more people to help us out. And I'm curious kind of where you're doubling down at the end of 2025.

51:24YouTube. I'm bullish on YouTube. I love YouTube. And it's funny because I'm someone who's been in short form content creation for 10 years. And I just moved to YouTube just under a year ago. And I love it. It's like something clicked for me finally. And this is another thing where it helps to have your themes and your beliefs defined. Because once I started on YouTube, I was like, everything perfectly aligns here with like, this platform and my goals and my values, my beliefs, they're all aligned. And I think, you know, for example, connection, as one of my values and my beliefs, how to connect with people and that being the most important thing, YouTube is the way to do that.

52:06You know, I not to say that you can't do that on social short form platforms like Instagram, TikTok, but if you really want to connect with someone and, you know, have them feel something about you, having them listen to you for 10 minutes at a time is what's going to do that rather than just a fleeting, you know, passing by real, not to say that short form isn't important, but for me, I think that YouTube is incredible. I couldn't believe it when I found it. I was like, you know, oh, what do you mean I can elaborate on my points? It was amazing. You're really good at those hooks. Like you are so good at capturing someone's attention right off the bat and those first 30 seconds.

52:49What is the Zagnark effect? Zagarnark, Zagarnik effect. Someone help me pronounce the word. How do you say it? Zagarnik. Zagarnik. I was close. What is the Zagarnik effect? Because it's something that you've mentioned before in your videos. I think it's something that the rocks need to know. What is it? Yeah. Well, thank you for that compliment. First of all, I think that it's down to 10 years of trying to think of the most hookiest angle of things. So, I appreciate that it's coming through. The Zayganic effect is essentially a psychological phenomenon where open loops make us want to come back time and time again.

53:28So, the Mona Lisa, for example, uses the Zaygarnik effect because when you look at the Mona Lisa, you don't know if she's smiling or frowning. You don't know if she's sick, you know, angry. You can't quite get a hold of the expression and this ambiguity makes us come back over and over again. It's why cliffhangers of TV shows do something so crazy to our brain because our brain keeps coming back to try and solve it. Our brains are problem solving machines. So our brains go, well, we need to find the answer to that. We need closure. So they keep coming back. So if the way that this comes down to creators is if you can understand how to leave a loop open in some way, whether this is in your content, whether this is in your, you know, consistent brand voice, maybe you can tell the identity of something in your content, or you keep people guessing with your posting schedule, having some kind of open loop in you in your brand in your content keeps people coming back and obsessing and wanting to get the closure that their brain is asking them for did you just say someone can utilize inconsistent posting to actually grow a magnetic personal brand that's wild you never know when i'm coming back thank god no no see that can be used by the wrong person that can be dangerous advice um i'll put some caveats on that yeah people need to be able to miss you okay if you haven't built an audience no one's going to care if you post regularly then you just post it regularly so if you you know have a million followers and then you keep people guessing can we can we kind of go can we go into this a little bit more you know a creator that me and brayden absolutely love and adore is casey neistat and he has done that so well but i think you have to earn that right to like you put in your time and you build something amazing and then you leave people wanting more and every time he comes back it's like such a treat I know you've talked also about somebody like Frank Ocean right like Frank Ocean doesn't put out music all that often but when he drops people are listening but he's gained that ability because his albums are so fucking good that you're like whenever he drops i'm dropping everything to go listen so And is it just you got to put in your time?

56:00We're also like people who get into content creation, you worry about having to post consistently. And if I take a break, I'm going to be irrelevant. And so how can someone get to a place of I can take a break and people are going to miss me and I'm going to come back when I want? I think it really depends on the platform as well. I will say that. I think that YouTube is more conducive to taking a little bit of a break. Like I don't think posting consistency is as important for the algorithm as somewhere like Instagram. So what I'd say is it is just about building that relationship before you give that distance.

56:39so if you are someone like Frank Ocean who's just a freak of nature he's been good from the jump he didn't have really much of a period of public um you know improvement and I will say that's a rare situation um you can just disappear because people have already made that connection uh with him with his themes with his lyrics he has this innate ability to just connect with people so when he pulls away people care because they're connected so I think this takes a bit of you know intuition from a creative person you have to understand okay is my audience connecting with me do I feel like I've connected to a community community in that case people will care if you have some ambiguity and take a bit of distance but until you're at that point it's probably not a good strategy to use.

57:34And would you say it's a little bit easier for someone more on the entertainment side of things, like an entertainment creator versus someone who's providing a ton of knowledge? I think about somebody like an Emma Chamberlain, right? Like the value that she's providing the audience member is that she's super entertaining and you love her personality. And so you're going to miss that because she is a quote unquote, one of one, there's nobody really else like her. And if people are trying to jock her like editing style or her personality, they're just kind of second best to her. And so you miss that.

58:06Like you love Emma Chamberlain. So whenever she drops, you're coming back. I think about somebody who their brand is around providing value, maybe from a more educational standpoint. If they're not putting out that content, they're probably going to find the information from another creator or from, you know, ChachiBT or something. So would you say that strategy might work a little bit better for an entertainment-based creator versus like an educational? Well, this is exactly why I think that people need to get to the emotional core of their brand because I don't really see it like information versus entertainment.

58:41I think that all creators should have the effect on their audience like Emma does. Like informational creators should be aiming to make that emotional connection and that's completely possible. So, you know, for example, an informational channel about finance, the feeling might be freedom and a different channel about finance, the feeling might be control. So if you can get really clear on the feeling that you're trying to get across, the emotional connection that you're building with your audience through the information, then yes, they will miss you. I think that it will work for everyone if they build their brand correctly and build their identity right.

59:23So yeah, I think information, more value-based knowledge channels should always still be making their priority to build an emotional connection through sharing the knowledge. Sharing the knowledge is a process, but at the core of that is the feeling and the emotional bedrock. You spoke to us a little bit about an open loop framework and how at the end of a movie, you know, if we get left on a cliffhanger, we're a little bit pissed off. You also have a four step loop framework. What is the four step loop framework that you talk to people about? Yeah, so there are four ways that you can leave loops open.

59:57And the first one is the loop of who and this is the identity of people. So you know, MF Doom, Daft Punk, all of these brands that have concealed their identities, DJ Marshmallow, Dream, he's a YouTuber, wear a mask for a long time. These people and these brands have all been able to grow so big, so quickly, I think in part to the fact that there is this open loop about their brand. We are constantly just sitting there thinking, who is this? Even if it's not you know, conscious, it's subconscious. Who is this? Where are they from? What do they think? Like, we're just trying to solve this problem of the loop of who.

1:00:43The second loop is the loop of when. And this is as we were speaking about this inconsistency. So Frank Ocean can drop and then disappear. Beyonce can drop and disappear. There's this creator that I follow named D 'Angelo. He actually hasn't posted for ages, but I still go to his page to check if he's posted. He hasn't posted in about six months. I still go regularly to go check if he's posted because that is the loop of when in my brain. When is he going to post? When am I going to hear from this person again? The next one is how much, and this is about access. So Beyonce is really good at this.

1:01:19Taylor Swift is really good about this. They say, you can't access me unless XYZ. Beyonce doesn't really give interviews. Adele doesn't really play shows. This is about making the presence of that person a really special thing and being strategic about how much presence you give people. And then the loop of why is about leaving stories open. And Taylor Swift is really good at this. She leaves Easter eggs in things where people try and figure out what she means. Why did she do that? Why did she wear that? What's that mean? So yeah, those are the four loops. Just a really simple way of thinking about how to get people triggering that Zayganik effect in their brain.

1:02:03Is there a way that people can bring that into their content? I know we were talking about these like massive icons that maybe aren't playing into the content creation game that maybe a typical listener of this audience is. Is there a way of, you know, creating these loops in a way that actually is effective? Like we said, kind of the how much or when you're posting, if it's sporadic, it might not be the best strategy. Like, is there a way that you think about creating these hooks or creating these open loops that are, you know, more conducive to a regular creator? Yeah, absolutely. So when I think about it on the level of just one piece of content, you want to think about an open loop in the same way.

1:02:49So if the whole piece of content is a circle, what is the thing that you're leaving open? And, you know, I have a love-hate relationship with the idea of hooks, like the concept of hooks, because I think it's a good framework for making people understand that the very beginning of the video is very important for getting people's, you know, attention and connection. but really I like to think of a piece of content in a way of what loops are you opening in the first part or throughout the video so when I make a YouTube video I'm just trying to open loops in the beginning of a video I ask questions I go what is going on here what does it mean and how can you use it in your own brand those are my loops that I open but if you are making you know a piece of content about gardening, what loops can you open that make people very subconsciously go, yeah, what is that?

1:03:42What is the closure there? What is the question? So it could be a visual loop. Like one that I see a lot is influencers make their coffees on camera. And this in itself is kind of like an open loop because we very subconsciously and naturally just want to see the coffee complete. So if someone is making a coffee in the beginning, opens a loop in our brain, we want to see the coffee complete. And maybe we don't subconsciously, like we don't consciously realize that, but subconsciously that's what our brain is doing. So try and open as many loops as you can, whether it's a question that you're asking, something that you're doing on screen, like maybe you're knitting and that you can't tell what it is yet, what you're saying, all these kinds of things.

1:04:29So look at it like your job is to open loops and close them by the end of the video. I think though what you're saying, we're also seeing a lot of creators have shows, like a lot of the YouTube creators that are very successful. I just watched a really great video by Colin and Samir where they were talking about Kelly Wakasa was the creator that they were like hosting on this channel called Creator Support. And they were explaining and showing how different creators are kind of like owning phrases like Ryan Trahan just went and tried all these different Airbnbs and like his phrase is like I tried X and you're coming back to this show to kind of see like oh what did Ryan try like what am I what are we going to see that he tried out or another popular you know little thing that people are doing on YouTube is like blank verse blank and you're like oh I'm kind of curious like how the cheap thing stacks up against the expensive thing and it does start us off in the very beginning of those videos like well I want to see like how it stacks up They'll show you like a little bit of one and a little bit of the other.

1:05:25But you're like, I want to see them versus one another. I want to see like why I clicked on this video is to kind of see that thing close the gap. And I think that that's what we're going to keep seeing on social. And I'm seeing it on short form now with these little micro shows that keep popping up on my feed. Like they're 10 episode shows, you know, and it's I'm coming to it's like TV, but vertical now. That's super interesting to kind of see like that transition happening on short form. I love that way of content creation. I think that it just makes a lot of sense because it's less work from you as a content creator.

1:05:58Once you have a through line in your content, it's so easy to just keep creating content under that through line. Like I tried, that's a through line. You know, someone's content who, like I look at Michelle Curry, I don't know how to say her last name. She also does the I tried and it's like running a marathon versus flying a plane. if there was just someone doing these random things, you'd be like, okay, they're not very cohesive. They're a bit scattered. But because her through line, I tried ties it all together. We go, okay, this is very interesting that you're right. It leaves a bit of an open loop for that.

1:06:34Yeah. There was a YouTube video that you had, and I believe it was called the Ikea effect. No, it was something with the egg. Is this the egg one? Is that the egg one? Right? That was like mind boggling to me when I watched this a few nights ago. Can you tell us about the Ikea effect and how someone can add that into their content? Yeah, I love this one. So I'll start with how it started back in the 70s. Instant cakes were just becoming a thing. So Betty Crocker came up with a genius idea of instant cake mix. And they said, it's just a powder. All you do is add water. Who was cooking at the time?

1:07:13Housewives. So, you know, they launched it to the market going great. This is going to be a huge hit. and it didn't go very well. Sales were nowhere near what they expected it to be and they couldn't understand why because they should have a hit on their hands, right? Like it was saving people time. It was saving people money. It was easy. It was intuitive. So they hired a team of psychologists and they found that the fact that there was no work for the baker to do, for the woman to do, meant that they didn't really enjoy the process. And furthermore, they didn't feel proud of the final outcome.

1:07:54When they had the cake in front of them, they didn't feel like they could say, that's my cake. So what they did is that they said on the packet, add an egg. And suddenly the sales of instant cake mix took off because now they got to add an egg. They got to be part of the process. They had to crack it. They had the sensory experiment of opening an egg and putting it in and then beating it. Suddenly it was their cake. So it's a bit of a metaphor for the fact that we are more obsessed with things that we have helped build. And you can see this being utilized in IKEA because what do you mean I have to pay a lot of money to buy a bed frame that I have to put together?

1:08:42but the thing is when I have that final product I value that bed frame more because I have helped create it so Ikea uses this but content creators are also using this brands are also using this fandoms are using this so really the message is help your audience help how can you let your audience feel like they have built you as much as you have built you. Things like, you know, with K-pop, people build the fandoms and the realities and the mythologies with things like Fortnite. I get to build the skins of the characters with the same with Sims. So how can you make people, how can you make people input something and then by way of inputting something they feel like it's their thing as much as it is your thing what's interesting is anytime i buy something that i gotta build i'm hiring a task rabbit and and my fiance goes oh like i put i got her a vanity and i think it took me like three fucking days to make but it's because i didn't think you could use an electric drill to do it.

1:10:03So I was really doing it manually. And I finished it finally. She goes, don't you feel like a man that you built? I go, no, I really feel like I wish I wasted fucking three days, which I could have just got a Tass Rabbit. But I do also think that you have a really good point. Because I think, yeah, like if you feel like you're a part of it and you like help maybe that underdog win, um, you feel like you had a part in this person's success. So you want to see them win even more, and you're going to support them. Absolutely. And, you know, it goes for fandoms. It goes for, like, I used to make kombucha and I swear it tasted better than anything I've ever tasted shop bought.

1:10:47It didn't, I just made it. Like, it's just the fact that I put the effort in to make it. So yes, how can you make people put effort in and enjoy the process? You're not just getting them to do your work for you. Hey, write the copy for my website. No, that's not the point. It's about making them enjoy the process of being part of the fandom. I'm curious to know about your like content creation strategy. Obviously you have serious clarity on your personal brand and you know what to make content about. What is your day-to-day week-to-week look like as a full-time content creator? Also, I'm assuming you do consulting.

1:11:23Like I'd love to know a little bit more about like how you run your business and what is your content strategy look like trying to balance both short form and long form content? It's something that I'm always thinking about. So my business itself, you're right. I have two offerings and that is I do one-on-one consulting with creators, public figures, and founders. And then I have a course which people can buy and work through my framework with worksheets and things like that. So those are the two ways that people can access what I'm building. And then in terms of what my week looks like, week to week, I've just recently taken a step back from doing so much one on one work, because it is, you know, it is very fulfilling, but it's also time consuming, and quite emotionally demanding, I find because I really care about my clients.

1:12:14So at the moment, I'm focusing more on my content creation. So what that looks like is I try to do one YouTube video every two weeks. And I found that that's a really good amount for me. And basically, I'll write a script for about three or four days. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my scripts. And I don't recommend taking that long, but that's how long it takes me. And when it comes to packaging it, I have a process there. I use a tool called one of 10. I don't know. Have you, have you heard of it? It's a free browser extension. So I will go to, you know, people in adjacent categories or not even just any category of content creation.

1:13:01And I just look at how people are packaging their content. I go, okay, what, what is the open loop? What are the themes here? What, why do I think that people had clicked on this video? I look at outliers, which are above three times what they usually get. And then I package my videos based on my assumptions from the outliers of other people. Sometimes I'll just have a hunch. I'll go, I think people will be interested in this and I'll just go for it. But mostly I am packaging my videos based on what outliers have performed well that's already out there. I think that's a really good tip to go and see like on the homepage, what using one of 10, what has the like three, five, nine X, because you're like, okay, there's something here clearly.

1:13:48And there might be something that I can steal in this video and put one little detail into mine and actually have it really be successful. I think that's a really good piece of advice. Yeah. And you can turn these things into frameworks as well. Like one of my content frameworks is this bracket effect or psychology or method will bracket desired outcome. So the enemy effect will make you magnetic. The rule of opposites will make people obsessed with you. this is a framework that I go back to time and time again, because I've found that it works. And I found that framework on a channel called Charisma on Command.

1:14:36So they had, it wasn't even very similar. It was like something that wasn't related to personal branding. But I just said that's, I broke that down in my head. I said, what's this, what's the framework in this title? And then if that framework were applied to my content, what would that look like? So really, that's something that anyone can do with anything. It's not about copying. It's about understanding what is taking place, like having the mind of a scientist when you're looking at outliers and go, what is actually happening there? Like, what, why did people click? Was it the thumbnail? Was it the title?

1:15:11Was it the combination? And then turning your assumptions into a framework. And that is how I, my first video on YouTube got, what, 200 ,000 views or something like that, because I was scientific about it. I think if you're not scientific about it, you're just playing the game on hard mode. Like, yeah, see what's working for other people and like, don't fucking rip it. But how can you bring that into your own work and your own content? I want to ask you, why is being different better than being better? Oh, I mean, different is so much better than better. And I'll tell you why. It's because better doesn't stand out.

1:15:51we expect everything to be better. We expect good. We don't expect different. So the biggest asset that you can have is a difference. Differentiation is one of the most important parts of your brand, and that's differentiation against your category, but also differentiation against your competitors. And really, again, trying to get in the mind of people, what do people expect and how am I different from that. And that will be a superpower if you can get clear on that. Do you think we're a little different? Please say yes. Absolutely. I think the combination of both of your personalities and the way that you communicate is absolutely different.

1:16:35It's a little bit of a cheat code to have two of you because you're instantly different because it's a combination that no one else can really, you know your chemistry can't be replicated really so i think absolutely you're different in that way it's just about getting so crystal clear on that through line that you're telling people what why do i as a person never heard of you stumble across your content why do i want to join what you're building that's all that really matters in the end good to get some um reassurance on that because me and fig are like i think we got something like i don't know like so to hear you say that makes us makes us feel a lot better i hear okay being different fucking great okay sounds great in concept but also kind of a little bit scary because you are naturally wanting to do what everybody else is kind of doing and if it's worked for them maybe it'll work for me and it's almost like the safe bet it's a lot scarier to be different on the internet, do you have any frameworks or ways that people can find ways to differentiate themselves and find what makes them different and bring that into their content?

1:17:47Can you explain some like maybe specifics in that regard? Yeah. And it's actually so interesting based on what we were just talking about, about finding these frameworks and then plugging yourself into, if you haven't differentiated yourself, you will just end up copying people. And And so you have to understand, yeah, your difference before you're able to do that and do it justice. So what I will say about copying the category leader is that you're never going to beat someone at being themselves. It's just a losing battle. So you can try, but good luck. So how to differentiate yourself? I'd say the best place to start is sit down and make two columns on the left side, write expectations on the right side, write me, and then define your category.

1:18:38So what category you in for me, it would be personal branding. What category would you guys be in? I think for this podcast, I think it is a merge between the creator economy, creativity but also business i think we're kind of trying to merge those two took a little triangle i would say trying to merge yeah yeah i feel like it is like it is creativity and business because it's like creator economy it's monetizing online it's how to make money using an unconventional method that's very new like this is still such a new career that's emerged in the last like you know, seven to 10 years, um, that our parents, like they have no idea what the heck is going on and like how we make money.

1:19:23And when I tell my dad that I'm like podcasting, he's like, still don't understand that. I'm like, it's all good. We will talk about it one day. Um, you know, I, I think though that it is not necessarily like one thing, you know, I don't know if that, if that. Okay. How about this? What do people assume you are when they first come across you when you talk to them at a party and you try to tell them what you do what do they assume about you and what you do they assume that i think we're creators that we like make money using using our phone or using a camera i would say for like for both of us right would you say that yeah it's it's really interesting because me and brayden there's a few different things that we do and the podcast kind of falls into one of those even though it is like a major thing that we do it's like we got the podcast we also make actual video and photo content for brands where we're not in it we also work with brands on our own social media so those are kind of like the three ways that we i guess make money and like support ourselves and it kind of all falls under the brand of 505 slash Brayden and Costas.

1:20:36And what would you be offended if someone assumed you did? Ooh, that's a good question.

1:20:45I think I'd be offended if somebody called me an influencer. Ooh, that's good. Because I think there's a certain connotation with that. There's also a certain connotation with like the term content creator. yeah but I think that yeah I think if somebody okay this is a great example when I was back in the day when I thought building a personal brand or creating content online was me needing to like be in front of the camera posing for photos because I'm like oh that's what these like lifestyle content creators do and people had no idea that I was a photographer and videographer and people like oh yeah you model and you and I'm like no I don't fucking what are you talking about I'm just like posing in front of a camera for Instagram because I need to be consistent.

1:21:28But that kind of offended me. And so then I was like, oh, I need to bring more of like what I do for actually for work, photo, video stuff into my content. And that's kind of when I pivoted earlier on. But yeah, to answer your question, I think the term influencer, like I would not be want I would not want to be called an influencer because I don't think it represents what I do or what me and Brayden do accurately. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I love this. So the reason I'm asking these questions is that for this exercise, you want to select a category that you are in or that you get lumped into that you feel like doesn't do you justice, that you feel like you are differentiated from.

1:22:06So let's just say we choose, okay, podcasting for you guys. So we've got this left-hand column, expectations right hand column me and the category is podcasting now go down each uh of the columns for expectations and what do people expect from podcasters there's a bit of a thing about podcasting right so what do we expect um people who ramble on without much idea of what the audience wants to hear or two dudes just talking or um people who are not very self-aware like we're going expectations, good and bad of the category first. And now we move over to you. What, how do you break those expectations?

1:22:54So if someone's expectations of the category of podcasting is two dudes just rambling, how can you really differentiate yourself from that and come in and go, we have a structure, we have a strategy, we're here to say this, this, and this. And then people are pleasantly surprised. You break their expectations, which makes them pay attention and connect more than if you were just fitting into the category. I like that. I like that. You have frameworks for everything. It's fucking phenomenal. It's phenomenal. That's amazing. And I think you're right though. When I think about a traditional podcast, like, and we've gotten that comment before, like, oh, like people need to make podcast mics more expensive.

1:23:35I'm like, that's awesome. Appreciate that a ton. But we really are trying to provide a ton of value for someone for free. It's like, it's completely free. You don't have to pay to come hang out with us. And it's a show that happens every single week. And I think that the people that have been with us since the very beginning, and there's a lot of them that have been with us for over four years now, and they've seen the progression. They know how much money it takes to run this thing and how we go all around the world interviewing people. We're going to go on a trip to Hong Kong in like four or five weeks.

1:24:05And it's like, we wouldn't do that if we didn't care about helping people and about giving the best of the best information out for free to people um and like it just made education so much cheaper because we're busting our asses and spending a shit ton of money to bring you these guests from all around the world and you're spending your time hanging out with us all the way out in australia like that's a crazy thing that they get that people get access to a person like you for free then it's like you've gotten to hang out with the two the three of us for almost two hours now and I've learned a ton.

1:24:38Costa's learned a ton. I'm sure the rocks have learned a ton. And I'd say like that is our value prop. And like that is kind of our promise is, you know, that this is a free show. Like it'll stay free. If you want to work with us, sure, we can. That's like a whole nother thing. But the show will always stay free. And I think that that is a very cool thing that Costa and I have talked about like a ton of like this is like such an educational resource that we wish we had. And like there's something for every step of the journey. oh I want to get into my personal brand oh I have these four episodes to listen to I want to monetize how do I make money online there's three more episodes for you to you know to go through and yeah when you're saying that that's kind of what I think of and that will continue to pleasantly surprise people when people have negative expectations about your category that's a good thing for you because you get to differentiate from them so people will find your podcast and go holy shit these guys know what they're talking about they go in with a plan They talk to incredible people and they do it for free.

1:25:34Like this is a differentiator that instantly works for you and that you should lean into. So the more of those that you can get out, the more you will learn about your differentiation. Just go point by point, assumption about the category and then me. Assumption about the category and then me. Differentiate yourself from the category and then do the same exercise with competitors. What do people expect from this competitor? Then how am I different? That's funny that you say that because it's kind of like what we did when I was starting my business. We did like a little bit of a SWOT analysis of strengths, weaknesses, threats, and opportunities.

1:26:08And like my production company strictly does social stuff. And when we're pitching against these really big production companies that have been around for decades, it's very easy for us to differentiate ourselves because if it is living on the phone, my argument is like these people haven't produced more stuff on the phone. And it's just a fact. Like I'd be shocked. If you show me their stuff and they've made more stuff on social, like hats off to them, like you should hire them. But I just don't think that's the case. And that is our differentiating factor. And it's really played into our advantage when going up against companies that are like much bigger than us.

1:26:42So, yeah, it's like we've taken a stance of like social is our thing. We love social. And a lot of the bigger companies like social is like whatever, blah, like we do broadcasts, like that's our thing. So it's interesting just to hear it in different contexts, like in the creator economy or in you know someone who's making youtube videos and trying to build their brand the differences and what do you think is your feeling like what do you think you make people feel oh i think we uncomfortable

1:27:12i think like confident and i think that people feel inspired that they can do it because like we're just two regular guys and we're doing it and it's like we've done it for over a decade and i I feel like just now we barely feel like we have steam really going ahead on the tracks and we show people that it's possible. And we bring on people who you would think would be so overly confident and they're doing it. They're making all this money. They've been doing it forever. And they all have like stories of doubt and stories of, you know, chugging up a mountain and stories of second guessing whether this was a career that they should be taking or their family was supportive of them.

1:27:51And I think it's really confidence and like belief, confidence, belief. Yeah, I think those are the two things for sure that come to my mind. What do you think? So that is so important when it comes to differentiation, because, you know, things like it being free, incredible, but other people can also be free. You can't copy the feeling that you make people feel like if I was trying to make a podcast like yours, I wouldn't be able to copy the way that you make people feel. So that is something you should hone into. So if you get really clear on like what, okay, specifically what kind of confidence, what kind of inspiration, and then lean into that, wow, that's how things blow up.

1:28:36With simple animals, it's all about feeling. For the record, I thought we were still talking about Braden's production company with Blue Stripe. I think we make people feel super comfortable on the 5-5-5-5. Should I feel uncomfortable? I was trying to make a cheeky little joke. Oh, man. Early on in the podcast, when we asked you about how you got clarity on your personal brand and more about your personal brand, you talked about stacking skills. And I'd love to go into that a little bit and how somebody can think about stacking skills in terms of building their personal brand and why that is a way to find their like onlyness or to differentiate themselves when they think about those skills that they have and how they can bring them into their content.

1:29:21Yeah, it's another great way to differentiate yourself because no one can replicate your life experience and your skills. So what I'll say about that is maybe sit down and just write down, okay, on the surface level, what are all the jobs that I've had? Okay, and then what are all the interests and hobbies that I've had? Okay, and then the real key is looking for the thing that connects all of those things. Because you'll find one, you will find one, we are all drawn to things that I think are innate nature. wants to do. And in within those things, what did you enjoy? If you feel like you can't actually make any connections, you went, you know, you were in banking, and then you were in marketing, and you're like, there's no connection there.

1:30:07Think about what you liked doing in banking, and what you liked doing in marketing, what you were told you were good at consistently in banking, what you were told you were good at consistently in marketing, and connect those things. So I'll you know I've been a musician I've been a radio host I've been a content creator I've worked in advertising I've been in podcasting random assortment of things right but the entire time all I was doing was trying to understand how to make people feel something and then communicate that clearly everything advertising that's all advertising is making people feel something and then communicating that clearly in music.

1:30:49That's all that is making people feel something and then communicating that clearly. Like I realized that there's just been this theme throughout my whole career, making people feel something and then communicating that clearly. And so I stacked all of those skills to do what I'm doing now, which is helping people make their audiences feel something and communicate that clearly. So what I'll say about skill stacking is, is more than just going, I've worked here, I've worked here, I've worked here. It's about understanding what your strength in all of those things were and what the through line was in all of those things.

1:31:26And then bringing that into what you do now, because that's your superpower. So interesting. My senior year of college, I took a business of acting class because, or business of acting, because I thought I was like, oh, maybe I'll be an actor. I also thought I could maybe be a DJ conversation for another day. Anyways, one of the assignments was to contact a working successful actor and interview them or like ask them a few questions for about like 10 minutes. Had a friend whose dad was a working actor. And I asked him, like, what is the piece of advice you would give me if I want to get into acting?

1:32:03He said, graduate. Don't even try to act. Go travel. Live your life. Get life experience for about a year. then pursue acting. And the reason he gave that advice was you'll have so much more to pull from when you're creating these characters, not saying building a personal brand is about creating a character. But I think the same advice applies in the way of when you're going into creating content or building your brand, having those stack skills or having those life experiences to pull from is so important because then you can relate to a lot of other people and you become unique, but then you can also draw from those experiences and talk about things that are relatable to people, but in a unique way to yourself because you've had those lived experiences and you've stacked those skills.

1:32:58What a wise man. I love that advice. It's super interesting. I think I would 100 % agree with that. And I would also add to that, follow the fun. I think that's what I've tried to do my whole career is just follow the fun. I get a bit woo-woo sometimes about it. Like I think we're all innately programmed to be pulled towards something. And I think some of us listen to it and some of us don't. And the people who are able to tune into that, it's quiet at first and then it gets louder and louder. and then serve it are the ones that really succeed. And whether you want to call that following the fun or I don't know, destiny or whatever, whatever you want to call it, there is something inside of you that's pulling you towards something.

1:33:44If you can tune into that and go, what do I want to do? Like if you're in a job that you hate, great. You can tune into what you enjoy in that job though. Like is your favorite part of the day when you're in the kitchen talking to your colleagues or is it when you're replying to an email or is it when you're in a meeting presenting like there are clues everywhere if you tune in and you just have to tune in and that's the first step it's really hard but i think yes get life experience follow the fun and notice the through line god i really like that i i think coasty when we first got the mics and we sat down i was like this is fun this is super fun it still is fun though no it didn't no i know but i mean like the first time the first time you sit down and you're like oh give me the mic no wait wait give me the first first time we ever we recorded the first ever episode of five five podcast never put it out because we we were like sitting next to each other not facing each other like in a line i forgot about that yeah and it was so bad i remember we're like probably 40 minutes in we're like should we cut this thing can we run this back again and we should be like in a circle damn that's actually crazy i forgot about that but talking about following the fun you know i think going back to like what makes us unique is we try to thread the line of providing value but in a fun and entertaining way.

1:35:16And that was like the only way we were going to do this show. And we understood that like, if it's not fun for us, there's no way we last four plus years doing it. It's like, we wanted to crack jokes. We didn't want it to be serious. Like we felt like we did have a lot of experience to pull from and we could bring that in and we could provide value, but like we wanted to make it fun and not be afraid to you know share things that we fucked up on because it was like us being vulnerable of like we know some stuff but probably not everything um most likely not everything probably not yeah probably not but it was fucking fun and like we're not scared to cuss and we weren't scared to like share funny stories um and i think that is like super important because if it isn't fun, it's going to be hard to keep it sustainable.

1:36:12100%. And your body tells you, you know, like to this day, it's still kind of, again, it sounds woo. It's still how I select my content ideas. Like I know that when something is really exciting to me, I get a specific feeling in my chest. Like I'll get a little fluttery feeling at the thought of making a video about that. And if I have a video that's like, okay, it's passed all the checks, it's got great packaging, it's done well on, you know, other niches, blah, blah, blah. But I don't get that fluttery feeling. I'm not doing that piece of content because I know that I'm not going to be able to deliver it well if it doesn't feel like it's compelling to me.

1:36:50And I think this is also, you can have all the frameworks and all the strategies and blah, blah, blah. But one of the biggest differentiators is just kind of like what your body tells you is what is my body telling me that I should be moving towards? And again, it's really quiet at first. But like you said, Brayden, when you started podcasting and you felt that, you feel it. When it clicks, it clicks. And you've got to pay attention because sometimes it's very quiet. Sometimes it hits you like a ton of bricks. Without a doubt. If you could go back and chat with someone who's like 18 years old and they're getting ready to kind of start this personal brand journey and start making content online, what would you tell that person out there that's in our community?

1:37:36I would say read as much as you can, learn as much as you can. Like you can't form a perspective without first inputting, you know, you can't output without input. It's like you're a sponge, right and you can't wring yourself out until you filled yourself up with liquid so your job honestly in the beginning is just to consume and I don't just mean short form content you know it has its place for teaching you but I mean like do a course or if you want to go to university you don't have to though I did and I'm glad I did because it taught me how to think and it taught me interesting things I never used it for a job or anything like that but it was value because it gave me something to input and just accumulate information.

1:38:26And you can't have a perspective until you've accumulated a lot of information. And don't just accumulate information from one perspective, like try and wherever you hear someone say something, try and look up the opposing perspective, get all perspectives and form your own perspective, because people aren't really doing that anymore. That's honestly how you differentiate yourself is to input everything, think about it, let it simmer, and then output with intention. I love it. I love it. This has been such a fun episode. If you guys are still hanging out with us, please go check out Erica's socials down below.

1:39:04Ladies and gentlemen, this has been episode 175 of the 505 Podcast with Erica Mallett, and we'll see you guys all next week. Peace. Who's on the hit list now, post pod? What are you thinking? still nikon without a doubt 100 still nikon um as someone who is slowly but surely incorporating um running into my content a little bit of lifting i think dude are we kind of enemies on stories you think about that first yeah yeah we are enemies we kind of we kind of are enemies on instagram story yeah um that's funny you know it's interesting because i was thinking about like my own for my own personal brand stuff because i'm not gonna be going near i'm not going down the path of i'm a fitness influencer okay i think more so my enemy would be someone who isn't trying to like get better at in like every aspect of their life right so fitness plays into my life because i'm trying to get better at fitness and live a healthy lifestyle so that i'm able to do the things that I want and so maybe my enemy is somebody who isn't living the healthiest lifestyle but also isn't going after their dreams that's a really good one the people that aren't going after their dreams I think I hope those people like despise me genuinely with a passion like I want them to be like fuck this guy I hate this dude what's interesting uh in hearing her talk about it is like um like not being afraid to lean into that and like be a little bit more polarizing than you might think and it might rub some people the wrong way but i think about the people whose feathers you're gonna ruffle are not who you're trying to attract anyways like like take living your best life and trying to live a healthy lifestyle people who are doing that are gonna be on board and somebody who's maybe a little bit more lazy are gonna say fuck this dude maybe he's a little bit cringe.

1:41:10Like it's not for me. It's a great, that content wasn't for you anyways. I completely agree. And it's funny because I think we're both on the same page with the fitness thing where we really both enjoy it, but it's for, it's not be like, Oh, I want, let me show you what my bench is. It's, this is a lifestyle that I think you all will enjoy, whether it's you're playing tennis, whether you're doing Pilates, whether you're doing yoga, whether you hit the gym whatever running whatever the thing may be I think everyone should have a few of those things that they really enjoy because it makes you healthier it makes you feel better it makes you some of them make you get outside they'll bring you together with different people and like the very first community that I was really felt a part of was fitness and I think it's a great one still to this day because of the transformation that you see in your life You get those little wins that stack up and it goes into all of the little things that you're doing.

1:42:08So I think that was that was very interesting from her talk. And now when I see people posting a lot of these thumbnails and all these titles are just videos in general. A lot of them are meant to be triggering. And because social is this place, it can be a very polarizing place, especially if you find yourself on the wrong side of it, where someone says something crazy. and I hope our audience, our rocks, take a second when they see a piece of content that maybe like does trigger them and maybe makes them feel like a certain type of way to take a step back and be like, that's exactly how they're trying to make me feel.

1:42:42They're trying to make me feel upset. They're trying to get me to send this off. And like, it's unfortunate that the platforms are created in a way to do that. Cause I feel like that is almost like the negative side of social. But, you know, really take a step back and think about, you know, why are you feeling a certain type of way about this person making this thing because that was probably their end goal. Hearing her talk about also creating themes for yourself and having beliefs. Going back to the phrase of you are the niche. I think that can be a lot. I think that can be really like confusing for a lot of people.

1:43:19Like I don't have a specific thing. Like I want to just I want to get paid to like be me on the Internet. And I think if you can think about what are your themes? How can you find the through line between fitness and photography and podcasting and cooking, whatever those things that you're into that make up you, that make you unique? What is the through line? What are your themes? What are your beliefs? And I think that is how people who are kind of nicheless, they're consistent with their beliefs and themes throughout every single piece of content and how they show up in any sub niche that they have within their life.

1:44:01Yeah, without a doubt. Cringe Mountain was also so interesting. That's a term that many of us have probably heard before is like you're climbing Cringe Mountain. But for us specifically, I even remember some people writing reviews. And if you go to our Spotify, there's like a handful of like fucking mean reviews where someone's like, these guys are too bro-y. I tried to show these to somebody and they're just a little too bro-y. and it's like okay then don't listen then don't listen if you think we're the word too bro-y and we talked about this i remember when someone had wrote that comment and we're like we're just not going to be for everybody and like it's almost a good thing you want to weed people out who don't vibe with you because one you're not going to change for some like random person on the internet and two the way i like to think about this right is if if you were in a room of like 100 people one you're not going to vibe with everybody like you're not you're you might vibe with 15 20 of them i have no idea maybe you vibe with 5 of them i don't know and that's like the audience and the community you're trying to build you're not trying to build a group of like you know like oh i don't want 100 of this pie that's not the game that you're playing and you're not going to like attract that those kind of people you're going to attract people that are probably similar to you and see themselves in you in one way or another so when you do end up getting your first hate comment congratulations like welcome to the club it's a fun place to be uh it's just It's part of the game, like Erica said.

1:45:22I also think on that topic, the people who are the biggest, who have the biggest personal brands, have probably just as many haters who are super loud as people who really fuck with them. She brought up Taylor Swift. There's a lot of people who fucking hate Taylor Swift because they think she makes shitty pop music or whatever. She used to be country and now she's more pop. As we know, she has one of the fucking most diehard fan bases of all time. somebody like Gary V. He's super like provocative in the way that he speaks. And that might be for some people and other people hate it. And so if you can remember that, like you might be super into somebody, you know, as a content creator, musician, whoever it may be, and you love their stuff.

1:46:10There might be somebody else who's like, that's not their cup of tea. And you might be thinking, how the fuck do you not like this person? Like, they're so good. Take Taylor Swift. if you were to tell if we were to talk to chloe and be like yo taylor swift is whack she'd be like go off on you right because she's a fucking super fan and it's the same thing like you're not gonna be for everybody and the people who are who have the biggest personal brands and who are the most successful they have just as many haters as they have supporters um but it can be hard especially when you're like not used to getting vulnerable and and maybe having a specific point of view on the internet you're like this worked for this person maybe it'll work for me i'm i'm scared of being cringed it's it's all part of the journey totally and i i hope that people listen to this one and go back and really think about their why for making content on the internet because if your why is just to make money you're gonna hit so many bums in the road and that i that why i just don't think is strong enough because you can make money doing anything you can make money in sales you You could make money doing solar, social media, gardening, whatever the heck the thing may be.

1:47:16You can make money doing it. And your why has to be so much stronger than that. And having a really strong why will help you when the times are tough, when you're sitting and you're stuck and you don't know what to do or you're exhausted or, you know, you've been on a two week road trip and it's 11 o 'clock at night where you're at and you're trying to do an awesome podcast. Like I was so prepared to do this and I didn't feel I didn't feel tired once we started rolling. I was exhausted, like took a flight today. We landed here. I've been shooting for the last like 10 days nonstop. I have four days where they're going to be all night shoots.

1:47:50So four days where I'm not going to sleep. I'm going to be up from like 6 p.m. to 7 a.m., which is insane to think about. But I would never even think about like missing this pod at 10 p.m. at night because I'm doing Are you shooting? Are you shooting DJs? It feels like it. It feels like it. You think I'm in black. I'm at the Kennedy Space Station and it's it's apparently we have to shoot at night and I didn't know that. So wait, where are you? I haven't even like. I'm in Orlando, Florida. Right now, this is the last leg of our trip. We're in Orlando, Florida, and we're about to shoot at the Kennedy Space Station, which is going to be actually really cool.

1:48:23But we have to shoot at night because these lasers that they're shooting out can only be seen at night, like for them to be able to see it with their devices they're using with these infrared cameras and all this good stuff. so it's going to be a really cool experience but it's going to be really late and when erica when we found out erica was in australia like i didn't even i didn't even bat an eye of like yeah we'll do a late pod like this just this is just part of the game that we're in it's kind of preparing you a little bit it is i'm like getting i'm getting used to being up at like 10 or 11 o 'clock at night but i think that to say this story to wrap this in a bow it's like when stuff gets tough or when it's late it's 10 30 11 o 'clock and you're exhausted and you've had a long travel day if you don't want to do said thing it's probably not it's probably not like the thing for you you should probably think about like doing something else because this show fires me up beyond belief to bring you guys great guests and have like really fun conversations like i feel really energized right now i gotta go i'm gonna go sit in the sauna outside and relax a little bit before you know we got to go to bed but she gave so many awesome insights and i think that we both are excited about building out our themes man i'm really hammering into that i felt like i feel like i was in like a college ap lecture class baby i was locked in well it's so nice that she has so many fucking badass frameworks it makes it so much uh easier easier and like more digestible and i feel like somebody will be able to listen to this episode and be like all right i can actually take some pen to paper and do it but the thing that she said at the end about follow the fun like you're saying it's so it's so true like if it ain't fun for you you might have you know a couple videos you might have a couple weeks couple months but you're gonna burn out if you're not enjoying it so i think in anything in life whether it's content creation job whatever what you do for work yeah how you spend your weekends how you spend your time like follow the fun i think that is i might get that tattooed i think that's such a great motto to like live your life by because it makes things a lot more enjoyable and the beauty about building a personal brand and creating content is like following the fun and having that be your job has never been more accessible and more of a thing that you can do if you follow her frameworks and create a strong personal brand for yourself um god i can't what else i can't wait to be home though man you miss your bed i miss my bed you miss your rock i miss my rock so much dude i wish i was home but we're making good plants are looking good though chloe's taking care of your plants or what are they firing dude my plants popping out let me tell you something your fucking bonsai trees i got a plant off etsy for like 90 and it was it's called a monstera it's an albino one it's very specific people can't just go an albino you can't just go buy that one at the store okay you got to have someone that has an albino one and i got this thing delivered didn't have any they sell that at target they don't no they don't not an albino one and it just popped out its first leaf dude so i'm a dad i'm a dad yeah that was pretty sweet that was pretty cool but this is the last leg of our shoot i think um dude i it's funny because i remember when i quit the lakers i was like i'm not gonna probably travel that much anymore i'll probably be in la like for the most part of the time i'm just gonna travel all the time dude i hit silver on delta bro we're on the

1:51:46Erica Mallett:cooler part of the plane now we're in group four yeah wow that's big dude bro you know what's crazy this is actually insane we're gonna hard group six delta delta credit card delta credit card okay free bag silver free bag two free bags bro oh that's huge that's huge it's actually massive it's huge for us because i've been traveling like six bags this has only been like 100 bucks each time and my bags weigh like 80 pounds each that's huge it's massive for the team and now dude i'll bring you up with me in group four you can come hang out with me in group four only nice thing you've ever done for me yeah we'll let you we're getting some free bags and upgrades and free bags we're getting upgrades for free we're going to hong kong i know we've said that like in the last few episodes but now it feels like you know we got to get this rolling we had a few guest cancellations which has been super fun for us to deal with yeah that's the most fun god we love let me tell you guys something we love it and we love the guests that you guys have just know that when they're here they're great people they're great people the ones that cancel it's like holy shit dude what are we doing wait i gotta tell you i gotta tell you something okay not pod related okay this is just separate sarah catherine works for a company called passes and the ceo very successful so she had a birthday and she and her birthday i believe was on i don't know if it was actually her birthday like the day but she threw a birthday party at the hq and their hq used to be the hq of phase it's just like massive like compound it's really sick but they hired mal p the dj to come dj and super fucking fun show it was like two hours long and um it was so intimate i've never been at like a show like that where it was like

1:53:36maybe maybe a couple hundred like probably 150 people watching just raging and it's also funny because sarah kathleen's like i fucking love now p and i'm like hey that's pretty like deep house like we're in the edm space i'm like it's sick that she's kind of getting introduced to it i'm like everybody loves house music they just don't know it they haven't you know they're heard it we'll give her some we'll give her some uh some leeway because she grew up in louisiana this is one of my favorite sets of coachella mr malpy malpy is dancing oh sick malpy is dancing do you know about this yeah yeah yeah some girl commented on his tiktok was like djs never dance or maybe it was him it was like malpy never dances and then he put it up like on the screen it's like malpy is now dancing and he was just like going off dude it's funny because i went to like i went to the bathroom before he went on and he walked in as i was like leaving i was like it's kind of a kind of a unit kind of big dude really size on him but it was sick our good buddy diplo was there really you know do it's doing a set too that's great that's awesome before he went on but they were like going back to back after oh that's fun dude that's fun man this was uh this was a super fun episode though i think that eric has so many amazing teachings i hope that you guys loved those because we did yeah i i can't wait to have these awesome guests keep coming to the show i'll give you guys one little hint okay we have one confirmed pod that i know is without a doubt happening next week which is with dan churchill he's a chef which is going to be awesome based in new york city so this is going to be a very fun episode man you're talking about a guy that's fit just take some notes man me and dan have a lot in common we're like both very fit guys oh yeah yeah yeah the trio dude the three musketeers that's us that's what they're gonna start calling just the trio god it's gonna be fun but that's all i'll leave you guys with i'm super excited if you're still here please go yo go check out our newsletter down below toppling the description writing one of those a week super fun i'm writing those so if you hate let me know and we'll see you guys all next week love y 'all rock so much peace