197. The Quiet Psychology Nike Used to Build a Cult-Like Brand ft. Ex-Nike CMO Greg Hoffman

27:47Greg Hoffman:Because if we're not there when our customer needs us most, they'll just move on. But I don't think time and money is an excuse for why something's mediocre. I actually think you can build systems, creative systems and filters that will lead to more consistency in terms of creating hits, at least around the things you want to be famous for. Give me a couple of those creative filters. What is something that you guys implemented or maybe you yourself personally implemented? Like, I really enjoyed your thing with inspiration and your photo albums because my photo albums are just a complete shit show.

28:32So I need to implement something like that so I could actually because I'll be like, oh, the AI and Apple is not bad anymore where you could like search something. It'll pop it up sometimes. But I need a better system for tracking that stuff. but I mean we were just out in Hong Kong not too long ago like a few weeks ago podcasting and the inspiration that I felt like we got from being in a huge city like that and just almost just dreaming like what's possible for this little show that we started in our apartment living room you know it's it's fascinating to see when you get into these different environments what inspiration kind of comes flooding to you I'm curious kind of what some of those things were for you or your team?

29:12Greg Hoffman:Yeah, again, great question. And by the way, well, I love that you're traveling in this way and it's not just transactional travel. It's so important to soak up everything around you. I'm a bit certainly obsessive compulsive, right? I think I've said, I think I have probably 7 ,000 screenshots currently in my iPhoto on my phone, right? I do try to drop those into organized folders of inspiration that I can draw from. If I'm writing, if I'm going to do a keynote, certainly as a teacher at the University of Oregon, it's super helpful on that. But going back to, well, what are the creative filters?

29:58Greg Hoffman:What's going to create more consistent wins on that? And I want to reiterate, of course, not everything, certainly when it comes to content creation at speed, not everything is going to rise to the level of being worth remembering, being remembered, right? But the things we want to be famous for, we need to make sure we're adding something to the conversation that's meaningful and inspiring. So simple mantra I always used at Nike, and I was really privileged and honored to be able to oversee the creative functions within marketing for quite a while at Nike. And then the mantra was no insight, no story, no story worth remembering.

30:51Greg Hoffman:And what do I mean by that? Oftentimes, we're stuck on observations, right? Right. We we in our case, if we just said, well, Cristiano Ronaldo is fast, that's just reporting the news. That is self-evident. We've added nothing to the conversation. So how do you dig into layers to find a truth that's hidden to the naked eye? And I think the best stories from a brand storytelling point of view are able to dig deep and find a truth and then reveal that with a really profound way. And I've said this before, but the lesson for me early on, which was really helpful, was something that I saw around a team doing with Michael Jordan back.

31:46Greg Hoffman:We're going to take the time machine back to the 90s. But they had spent time with Michael Jordan, who at the time was absolutely the GOAT, right? But the way he was presented by brands was always the same. It was game day in action photography. So back to, is that distinctive in a crowded marketplace, right? And so here's this team that asked more questions. And as they dug deeper into Michael's psyche and mindset, Michael revealed that he had missed 9 ,000 shots, that he had lost 300 games, and that 26 times he had been asked to take the game-winning shot, and he had missed. But he said, I failed over and over again, and that's why I succeed.

32:36Greg Hoffman:So my point in sharing that, and that's from the Michael Jordan failure commercial, is that's an example of not just reporting the news, not just showing simple observations and assumptions, but actually sharing something that shows just how inside the game you are. And I think that's what the best creators do as well as the best brands. And so how can we just make sure as we're trying to maybe deliver more faster to just take a pause to ensure is there something here that's worth sharing that goes behind the curtain, if you will. And the last thing I'll say here is it's not, again, about time and money.

33:26Greg Hoffman:So why is meme culture so pervasive? I don't know about you, but the number of memes and reels I'm getting, whether it's around basketball, my golf game, whatever it is, why are they successful and why are they shared millions of times over? Because they're showing, they're revealing an insight, either in a playful way, a funny way, hey, maybe even a hurtful way, But they're presenting it something that is insider, right? And, of course, they're using the – I guess the advantage anyone has when they're creating memes is no one's actually getting the rights to use all this incredible IP that's been created in movies, TV shows, whatever, to create these funny, memeable pieces of content.

34:22Greg Hoffman:But I only say that it's like, look, if your friend and next-door neighbor can generate this stuff, then why is it so difficult today for brands to do that? I just think, you know, again, there's a bit of a sea of sameness when it comes to brand storytelling right now. and I think getting back to the fundamentals of going from observation to insight, from the insight you need to develop your unique point of view, right, as a brand, and then you get into the medium and the media, right? And so I've always used that five-step process, and again, that's a bit more about how can brands create end-to-end campaigns.

35:11Greg Hoffman:But even for, in my case, working with athletes today through the Beyond Your Limits platform we created, again, I think the lessons apply there as well on that. And in order to make sure you're owning your story and not letting someone else define it for you. Part of that then is kind of looking deep and go, well, what is underneath the surface? What's the engine that has made me successful? And how do I share that in a way that's compelling, soulful, kind of revolutionary? That's up to the individual. Man, there's so much that you're bringing up that I wanna touch on. I do want to take it back to what you talked about a little bit earlier.

36:04Two things. I remember it must have been in fourth or fifth grade for me when I first discovered the Nike ID and you could go on and like customize the shoe. So you bringing up that you guys like brought that into the store. I remember how like mind blown I was because you couldn't do that with any other shoe. And I just remember getting a pair and I was in fifth grade and I love playing basketball. And I remember showing up to school and being like, I feel so cool in like my custom Nike ID shoes and that I wanted so bad. And then the other thing I wanted to bring up is because you brought up Kobe Bryant.

36:40I remember watching an interview talking about, I don't know if it was the Kobe 6. It was the first Kobe that he created that was low cut. And I remember him talking about how most of the Nike shoes or sorry, most of the basketball shoes from any brand were mid or high top shoes. And he was a big soccer fan. And so he looked at a soccer cleat and thought to himself, how are they able to cut through and be so nimble but not hurt their ankles? like how can we maybe bring that into the basketball world and that reminded me of what you brought up of how like looking outside of the typical realm of whatever industry you're in to to get inspiration so that that reminded me of that yeah great lesson your your point about the

37:29Greg Hoffman:the low-cut you know kobe sneaker and and of course today those are i mean still uh some of the highest selling sneakers, uh, most coveted, uh, around that. But, uh, it really does, uh, put an emphasis on kind of looking beyond your own world, right. On that. The other thing I wanted to bring up was taste. And do you think that someone is just naturally born with it? And can you improve your taste over time? Like I'm sure that during your tenure at Nike, you kind of like it kind of started, I'm assuming, become second nature of like, I know that's going to work or I know that's going to resonate versus not, but that's because you had 20 plus years of doing it.

38:20And so if someone is maybe just starting out and they know something is good or they can like tell something is good, but they're maybe not sure of how to bring that into their own thing or they want to improve their tastes. how did you do that over your time at Nike and like what um what advice would you have for someone who's like I want to get really good at something or I want my idea my decision making to be better and were you basing that off of like just pure gut feeling because you had been doing it for so long or were you going off of a lot of data of like past campaigns great great question

38:57Greg Hoffman:One that we should have because I really do feel it's going to be the biggest differentiator. And I do feel one of the most in-demand jobs over the next one, two, three years will be the role of a brand creative director on that. But it's not just taste isn't necessarily just for the chosen few. certainly if you have a culture that allows you to develop it just like you would train a muscle. You mentioned that you just spent some time abroad. And I think part of it is, and this isn't so much about physical travel, it's more your consciousness and your vision and traveling, if you will, digitally or physically.

39:51And so I guess for me and the teams, Nike has another maxim called be a sponge, right?

40:04Greg Hoffman:But part of taste is being hyper aware of what the cultural currents are within the world. High culture, street culture, youth culture. Of course, today it's changing constantly in real time, right? But developing over time an accountability for and a passion to understand what the spirit of the times are, right? Because I think that's going to govern. It's not enough just to present something that has a lot of style, is really clear in terms of what its performance attributes are. You also want to make sure it occupies the pole position within culture. right and it's i feel you have to kind of command those three dimensions with what you put out into the world right otherwise you know as i always say performance uh style without performance is just going to be fleeting and performance without style uh is probably going to be forgotten But when you combine both through taste, right, going through those filters, as well as cultural relevance, if you will, that's, I think, when hits happen on that.

41:39So I think, again, I look like everybody.

41:44Greg Hoffman:I mean, man, the way I was dressing in the 90s was different than the 2000s, which was different than the 2010s. I'm a huge architectural aficionado today. But honestly, those tastes and that fluency and acumen around architecture was built over time. And the most important thing is I was always in rooms or tried to put myself in places where I was around people who were on the leading edge of those conversations, creating that type of work, being responsible as leaders for those types of decisions, right? So I think part of what increases our ability and our confidence to make decisions through our instincts and our eye is being in environments where we're shoulder to shoulder with people that were gleaning inspiration on that.

42:50Greg Hoffman:Uh, so, so yeah, I, I, to, to answer your question, uh, I do think of course there's certain individuals within a brand or an organization who have to play the lead role and be the lead filter when it comes to curating, uh, the world of, of, of that brand. Um, but at the same time, I think you can't be in every conversation in the room all the time. So how are you building those instinctual muscles within your team to ensure that they have equal confidence to say, you know, this is on brand and this is not. This is more of an imitation or this falls short of our standard. And so I really do feel, and what's remarkable though, and I'm talking a lot about bigger brands, but what I do love is technology has given us more, like it would be really difficult today to create a poorly designed website, both aesthetically and functionally.

44:01Why?

44:02Greg Hoffman:Because there's ready-made templates that have been ordained by people who have great talent within those arenas, and now those resources are available to us. So on the one hand, I'll say I think our collective taste level in some ways has moved up because of all of the capabilities and tools that are around us. But you could also say in some cases, let's use an example that I love, is I absolutely love the evolution of the smartphone camera. We just talked about all the photos and screenshots were taken, right? But in some ways, sometimes you could say that it's created a culture where we maybe don't have the same appreciation for the power and the art of creating an image that has staying power, that will truly be remembered.

45:11Greg Hoffman:because maybe photography has gotten so disposable. So again, my thing is we can walk and chew gum at the same time. A lot of what we create is going to be disposable conversation. But let's get back to the things that matter most when everything's on the line and it's do or die, right? We better put it through all those different filters to ensure that it is going to be the thing that is ultimately remembered. The phone photography is really interesting. That's a really interesting point you brought up because in a way, yeah, like the cameras are so good. And there is the famous quote or saying of the best camera is the one that you have on you.

46:00And so now that everybody has an incredible camera at their disposal in their pocket, Like everyone could in theory be considered like a photographer because the photos are of great quality. But as someone who like loves photography, the photos that I'm drawn to the most are ones that have a story behind them or do tell a story. And you can see the emotion in the person's face or, you know, a photo is worth a thousand words. Like a good photo does paint the story and kind of goes back to the world building. and like what is that image actually saying? So that's a really interesting point that you brought up with the cameras.

46:42Greg Hoffman:Yeah, and again, there's two sides of every story, right? In some ways through Apple's amazing shot on an iPhone campaign over the years, you could argue that they created one of the world's largest brand communities, right? On that, where everybody feels that they're part of that community And everybody, you know, Apple's mission in some ways is to unleash the creative genius inside all of us, right? And doing that through the hardware and software they create. And so on the one hand, I just absolutely love that people are powered by tech that is going to elevate their ability to capture the world around them, capture their passions.

47:31Greg Hoffman:At the same time, my hope is that we don't reduce the appreciation of practitioners who are amazing at that craft. And I spent, you know, three decades working with some of the best photographers in the world, right? And there's a difference. You said it best. They are able to capture things that go beyond just point and shoot, right? And I think at the end of the day, I think audiences appreciate that even if it's in the subconscious. Could you talk to me a little bit about competition that you saw with the brand? Because I believe when I was in college at Oregon, I think Nike had about 80 % of the market.

48:21And I could be wrong on that statistic. And I'm curious to now what it looks like with all of these other brands seemingly stepping up their game. Like when I was in school, I felt like it was quite taboo for people to wear, honestly, a lot of other brands. Like you saw Adidas coming into play with their Yeezy campaigns with Kanye. And then you obviously had Asics had a resurgence and New Balance and Solomon. And now I feel like there is such a much more dispersed group of sneaker culture. When, in my opinion, when I was younger, it felt like Nike was almost the only way. And I'm curious what you think the bigger brands have to do to combat what these smaller brands are doing, taking more of this market share, because I'm noticing it in all sorts of different lanes.

49:08Even with my our girlfriends and their leggings that they wear, Lululemon used to probably be like damn near 99 percent of the market for women's leggings. But now you have all these smaller micro brands that are popping up and taking pretty large portions of the pie. while maybe it doesn't seem very big, but when you have 25 of them all taking 50 million here, 100 million here, it ends up soaking up so much that market share. So I'm just curious, now that you're removed, what your thoughts are for the brand going forward, competing against a lot more competition seemingly than it felt like when I was younger in college?

49:43Greg Hoffman:Yeah, this is a great point. And this is something I discuss a lot as the adjunct professor of branding and marketing for the sports product management program at the University of Oregon. And I call this the era of performance culture brands, where you have a lot of these emerging maybe brands that almost feel like boutiques. If you just took running, for example, and you have a brand like Tracksmith or a brand like Bandit Running, and they've built these incredibly distinct brand identities and the voice of the brand is strong. And the signature design language, like the design attributes of their products represent that world as well.

50:37And they have a really clear focus on who the community of runners that they're inviting

50:44Greg Hoffman:to be a part of their audacious journey of growth. And so you could imagine, wow, that's really difficult. So larger brands, I believe, to compete with a lot of these really defined, interesting, and dynamic emerging brands is, in some ways, you have to play small ball. And you have to be able to build these. In some ways, it's almost like a solar system, right, where there's worlds within that solar system, and you're allowing your big categories where you own so much market share to have really distinct edges, right? And in no way can it look like a cut-and-paste brand, right, on that. You see this in golf as well.

51:41Greg Hoffman:I look at how interesting a brand like Malban is, right? Untethered by having to spread itself across multiple different categories. It's just telling really deep, unique, interesting stories with sometimes established professionals, but also with celebrities and even non-golfers. And there's many of these different performance culture golf brands. You see that in running. Of course, you're seeing that in yoga on that, and then sportswear in general. But my advice to larger brands, whether it's in the sportswear space or other where they're incumbent, is you have to figure out how to show the edges and build worlds around a particular product, right?

52:41Greg Hoffman:So I love what Nike did at the Winter Olympics and using that as a moment to launch, relaunch all conditions gear, ACG, right? And having the confidence to do that. And not just doing a standard event sponsorship approach, right, which is just badging your logo around an event. You know, the Nike brand through ACG actually had a ACG train that took media members, athletes, influencers, et cetera, from Milan up to the Alps, right? And within that train built out this immersive experience. And that was just one different, that's just one example on that. But, you know, and what that shows as well is that we're going to invest in these physical activations, but quite frankly, they're digital content machines, right?

53:48Greg Hoffman:They're bringing the world into those locations. So the ACG example is what happens when you kind of allow the teams to breathe creative life into a particular niche within a larger brand. And it starts to feel like something really unique and special, even though it's been here since the 90s, right? You think we'll start seeing the big brands continue to do more in real life stuff because they have the budget and the means to do that, where as the littler brands might be more constrained by that? Do you think that is something that we'll continue to see going into later this year? Yeah, again.

54:37Greg Hoffman:Look, I've seen it. I've experienced both. You know, when I started at Nike, I grew up playing soccer and we were not a soccer brand, you know, and then to think, you know, to go from really not being in the top 10 to be the number one global football brand in the world within 10, 12 years was, you know, I relished the idea of being an underdog. And in some ways, it's back to playing an away game, being an underdog. Or for founders, as they've built these successful companies, they still have that day one mentality. So I think for larger brands, it's don't ever lose the feelings of what it's like to be the underdog.

55:31Greg Hoffman:Because the minute you do, again, it gets back to complacency on that. So in terms of how a larger brand uses its resources, its reach on that, to me it's more just… Making sure you're creating multidimensional campaigns where there's multiple access points to reach new markets, new generations, versus it's just always a content play. Copy, paste on that. So it just all comes down to how, back to, again, resources don't necessarily make you more innovative or more creative on that. So that shouldn't signal who's going to be more successful within the future state. On the topic of multidimensional campaigns, how do you balance story versus spec?

56:41Because I think of somebody like Nike or even Apple. When Apple launches a new product, they have incredible commercials that talk really nothing about how powerful are the new specs that are incorporated into the new iPad or the new MacBook Pro. but then they also have pieces that go out that really go into you know those really in detail specs and so when when launching a new marketing campaign how did you guys think about balancing talking about the specs versus just telling the story because I feel like Nike is so infamous for creating commercials where it's like they're talking nothing about the new technology that's in the shoe.

57:28It's just the athletes wearing it or telling an incredible story. And you want to buy the shoe, not because of how technically advanced it is, or the technology inside of the shoe or what went into building the shoe, but more so because you resonate with the story that's being told. Yeah.

57:45Greg Hoffman:So one of the methods I use or a framework, again, back to the power of three, right? Three dimensions of this and something I think for your viewers that might be helpful as well regardless of the size of your brand, right? Or what you're building is, you know, this idea of overground, on the ground, and underground marketing. And on the ground is your, today of course is you're always on digital product marketing. Some people might call that performance marketing. Some people, a lot of different names, but at the end of the day, it's probably going to occupy 80 % of your entire demand creation marketing budget.

58:33Greg Hoffman:That's on the ground. That's like Facebook ads for people that are listening, right? Okay. It's like our TikTok ads, Facebook, Google. And I think, and, and sometimes honestly, it's, it's somewhat interruptive. instead of building your path with your consumer to their aspirations, you're interrupting their path. You've got to be careful about that, but you're driving the business with that always on the ground marketing. Overground is once or twice a year, you've got to remind people like why you exist, where you're going, and why should they care, right? Back to the idea of, you know, just do it on that.

59:23Greg Hoffman:And so that is like how you do that. And again, this doesn't come down to commercials and ads, but you're pulling up from the features and the rational value, and you're talking about the emotional value, right? Back to, I think, if I understand, one of you's wearing the Air Force One, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, right? So you're talking about a shoe that was designed in 1982 and the rational value hasn't changed since 1982. It looks the exact same. The innovation hasn't changed at all and yet it's more successful than ever because of the emotional value that Nike is fueling to make people feel like there's a currency and status around that particular product.

1:00:15Greg Hoffman:So where that product shows up, who it's showing up on, and what the stories are around that product on that. But in any event, whether it's a product or a collection or the entire brand, the overground is just finding different ways to say, this is our call to action for the season. You know, if it's running, we want you to find your fast. We're not going to talk at all about technology, product attributes. It's just about aspiration. And we're going to generate a feeling back to and create recall and emotional memory so that every time you see our running brand, you want in. And then underground gets back to the ACG train, if you will, or what certain brands do when they host a dinner with influential people where they're not talking at all about product.

1:01:17There's no pressure to transact at that particular dinner.

1:01:23Greg Hoffman:It's just to share the values of a particular company with like-minded people. So some people call that energy marketing. Some people call that city marketing. But it's what only human beings can do. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, right, As you grow, as the head of your brand and your team, what is our standing on the streets in the most influential cities? Or are we not part of the conversation at all? And there's only so much of that conversation that can be driven through digital culture. right? So that's my point about on the ground, above ground, and below ground. If you use that kind of simple three-step framework, it will keep you honest and asking different questions.

1:02:21Greg Hoffman:Because if the entire organization is only doing digital product marketing and never asking the question, is everything we're doing adding up to some bigger audacious vision back to those brands that have built those incredible communities like Harley, Lego? Look at Sephora. I mean, Sephora's marketing is its consumers. The consumers do all the marketing, right, on that. So they're all really intentional about those three layers. Like what is always on through the digital universe we live in? What can we only do when we show up and shake hands in person? And then finally, what's that bigger proposition as to the role we play in the world and people's lives?

1:03:17Greg Hoffman:And I think when you activate on those three levels, you play a different role in the hearts and minds of consumers on that. How would you measure the success of these campaigns? And were there certain campaigns that maybe you didn't see a direct reflection on the bottom line, but you knew this was super strong for brand? Like this was something that this was still a home run for me, but maybe other people internally, maybe your CEO at the time was like, what the fuck happened here? Like we didn't actually hit this marker, but you're like, no, no, no. I promise you that this has such a deeper, you know, a deeper meaning than just what is on this bottom line.

1:04:04I'm curious if you could share any stories from, from that.

1:04:08Greg Hoffman:Yeah. I mean, part of it is, you know, your, your, your standard metrics on more of brand campaigns when it comes down to things like share of voice, uh, on that and recall awareness, all those different things. And part of it, too, is mentions in the media. You get back to earned media, shared media, et cetera, where those campaigns that become a vibrant part of the cultural conversation in a voluntary way by culture. So for someone who doesn't know, that'd be like Ad Age writing an article after you guys did a campaign, right? Yeah, it could be something like Ad Age. And it also could be something, yes, that's shared continually.

1:05:05Greg Hoffman:If I thought about, and I'll tell you, I'll put it this way. And I have three or four brands that I think really won the year. But I'll share one of them now to answer your question. And Montclair last year was launching its big puffer jackets on that. And they came up with this campaign slogan, Warmer Together. And within that campaign, remarkably, they used Robert De Niro and Al Pacino, two legendary actors, definitely late 70s, early 80s. They used the legendary photographer Platon to shoot them in black and white. And they were able to deliver on that idea of warmer together without directly talking about the jackets they were selling.

1:06:09Greg Hoffman:It was about the warmth of this decades-long relationship between De Niro and Pacino, right? And that particular campaign, I would say from an earned media standpoint through every, of course, and what I mean by this is not just industry stuff like LinkedIn and AdAge and marketing platforms, but general media started to report on this particular campaign And it was really the first time in a long time I've seen a brand campaign have that kind of gravitas in culture. And none of it, it wasn't paid media on that. And why is this? Because AI can't come to that decision to include those two actors to launch that particular collection and campaign, right?

1:07:12Greg Hoffman:That gets back to human ingenuity and taste. And guess what? The world rewarded it. And I'm sure it shows with the bottom line. So that's just a topical example of something that is hard to measure, per se, in terms of before it launches. because what's happening right now is your commercial partners are saying, like, prove to me from a productivity standpoint that if we pay, if we spend this much demand creation, that we're going to get X amount of sell through and demand creation. And sometimes someone needs to put their foot down internally with great conviction and say, this is what we need to do on that.

1:08:03Greg Hoffman:So that's just one example that I've seen that I've really feel has led the way and led the conversation about what successful brand building looks and feels like within an era of automation. Man, that reminds me of the campaign, the Kyrie Irving Uncle Drew campaign. Were you at all a part of that? No, I wasn't, but I'm well aware of that, right? That absolutely cut through. Yeah, that's, when I think of that, I think of me and my friends were talking about it. I had friends who started tucking in their sweatpants into their socks because of it. It's almost, there's, you can't, what's the word?

1:08:57Like, there's no analytics that can really tell you that. It's kind of just like, you got to be out in the world and you hear people talking about it and the message gets shared. Well, what I would say is just so, again, you've got a lot of listeners who, and I do believe the most powerful culture is one where there's a balance of left and right brain thinkers, right?

1:09:20Greg Hoffman:You know, right brain thinkers, maybe a bit more creative, take the organic road to get to a solution. Left brain, maybe more data and analysis, take the straight line. But you need both, right? And so I think today, modern marketing, and you're going to hear so many different definitions of what that means, but I do believe any brand today has to look at itself as a club. And clubs have membership. And membership has privileges. So anything you're doing, you are absolutely trying to invite people into your club and retain and reward those members. Members oftentimes having 2, 3x the repeat purchasing power of anonymous customers, right?

1:10:15Greg Hoffman:So my point is, if you are doing more brand-level campaign, ultimately it still has to lead people down the road to become – well, first you have to answer the question, why should I be a member of your brand and why would I stay in a logged-in digital state with your brand? Tell me why. And you better have – back to the promise, right? So what is the promise that you're giving people? Today, I don't believe any of us want to be served as an anonymous number. Those days are over. So I think modern marketing recognizes that you have to, in some ways, promise to serve each and every customer one-to-one, right, at scale.

1:11:09Greg Hoffman:And so all of your activities are moving that way. And what I've done, you know, the nice thing is I've learned a lot as I've done keynotes with different brands over the last few years, you know, and get kind of to sit within some of these internal cultures. That's probably the biggest, one of the bigger takeaways is how fine-tuned these teams are getting on how to both inspire, deliver innovation in a meaningful way, but also explain to people why they should be engaged in a relationship versus something that just feels transactional. What are some of those things that you felt engaged the customer base via the app?

1:11:59Do you feel like the drop style of some of these shoes soured people to the brand potentially by them not being available? I'm just curious what that looked like internally because I vividly remember and I'm sure a lot of sneaker lovers have this experience. You set your alarm for 7 a.m. and then you're like sitting in the thing. You're like, damn, I'm not getting this shoe today. Like, I'm curious what those internal conversations look like to keep people coming back to the app and continue to build it because obviously it's been very successful. And I also think the bots had probably a lot to do with it where it's like that's a whole nother issue where it's these bots you're paying.

1:12:40These people are paying a ton of money to have these bots get the sneakers. But yeah.

1:12:45Greg Hoffman:Yeah. I don't have anything new to add that's not already public domain on that. I think what I can tell you always is you have to listen to the voice of the customer, right? And you have to read and respond to the customer's aspirations and criticisms as well on that. But, you know, that is a revolutionary innovation when the sneaker app came out, right? And I think maybe the other mantra that was always a part, again, back that was always up on the wall were these words, evolve immediately. So whatever you're creating, you don't just get to sit back and say, we're good. So that idea of incremental innovation on behalf of your customer and that feedback loop, if you will, where their point of view or their met needs or unmet needs are part of the product creation process, even when it comes down to apps on that.

1:14:07Greg Hoffman:So, and you're, of course, there's, you know, one of the, being a beloved brand, whether it's Nike, whether back to we talked about some other ones like Lego or Harley Davidson, you know, that comes with a lot of responsibility and a lot of passion. And I think if you look at a brand like Lego, for instance, Lego actually has an entire website called the Ideas website where they're inviting the customers to come up with ideas. They have voting platforms where the entire Lego community gets to vote on what those potential product ideas could become. So I think customers, consumers, us, the three of us, and everyone, most likely will play more of a role in how brands create, right?

1:15:15Greg Hoffman:Not just consuming content, but being part of that product creation loop, right? And I think that's going to look a little different for every different product sector on that. And what that doesn't mean is giving away your brand. I want to talk about the Air Force One because I'm clearly wearing them. Brayden doesn't own a pair because he just doesn't understand culture like we do. You talk about or I've heard you talk about how it became unbelievably cool. Like the Nike Air Force One is a sneaker that you see rappers wear it with suits at award shows. Like it transcended like the sneaker culture.

1:16:05I feel like it's just it's such an iconic shoe. Oftentimes you hear people talk about if I had to just only wear one shoe for the rest of my life, it's the Nike Air Force One because it goes with everything. But you've talked about how you can't chase cool. Like, because if you're chasing it, you won't get it. And so how does a brand become cool or create a product that is cool without having that be the end goal?

1:16:32Greg Hoffman:Well, first and foremost, what is your aim when you create that product? And the staying power, of course, of the Air Force One is it was designed for performance, right? It was designed at that time to elevate the performance of the best basketball players on the world. And by the way, then Moses Malone, center for the Philadelphia 76ers, ends up winning a championship in that particular product, right, on that. So it's, to me, a brand's longevity starts with how pure the intent is at the beginning. Is it just trying to chase a trend? Or is it actually trying to solve a problem and deliver a benefit that that particular product category has never seen before?

1:17:29Greg Hoffman:And I think that's what Bruce Kilgore, the designer of the Air Force One and the team, were ruthlessly focused on creating the best possible solution on that. Now, that might seem elementary to some aspiring entrepreneurs, but the reality is when you look at things that are iconic in culture from a product standpoint, whether it's the Levi's 501 jeans, whether it's like the Porsche 911, I'm sure you all have ideas of what iconic products are. None of them were chasing cool. They were born out of trying to create functional excellence. Now, the good news is they're also wrapped. There's also an idea about what stylistically could be a departure from everything else that's happening at that point.

1:18:28Greg Hoffman:back to the Air Force One was such an amazing canvas, right, on this, this seamless kind of canvas, if you will. So to me, I always go back to, like, well, and even how I teach or how I advise is, are we unbelievably clear on what the functional points of difference are for what we're creating or not? Or are we just putting something out in the marketplace that is just really just like everything else? We've just dressed it up in a different way. So that's the first part. The thing that's remarkable about this particular product, Air Force One, it never had a commercial. It was never featured in a traditional advertisement.

1:19:25Greg Hoffman:That's remarkable. And I say that because I just want people to know, again, it's not about budgets and time necessarily and scale. It is about, you know, maybe doing things in unique and different ways in a particular moment in time on that. And just in terms of back to people and places, what are the associations that started to be built around this particular product that would present it in culture in a different way? So back in the day, it launched with one of the most famous posters, right? The Air Force, one poster where you had all the players on that time standing on the tarmac, right, at an airport with the kind of the sun kind of beaming in, right?

1:20:21Greg Hoffman:That was really remarkable and on the wall of many kids' bedrooms back in the day. So, again, I think from there, it's just really the brand did a really great job of creating new editions, not just by name, but each edition of the Air Force One had a very distinct story that it was rooted in reality. like a particular court in New York or a particular player who accomplished something. And so multiple, too many to name, different editions of that product over the course of the last 40 years continued to build emotional value and equity in people's minds on that. And it never felt like it was super commercial, like it was omnipresent as a campaign.

1:21:24I can't recall an actual, you know, evergreen campaign around this.

1:21:31Greg Hoffman:What I can recall is nuanced, intentional, and respectful storytelling that started with the product itself as a canvas for those stories that were celebrating moments, people, and communities on that. So, again, we could spend a lot of time there, but that's just a few things. And it gets back to kind of what I was saying here is that I feel we're, there are, you know, some of us are, we're creating campaigns through templates. You know, we've got, we're able to prompt and ask any question and then we're rushing and creating, we're dumping this stuff out there. I'm exaggerating for a fact. So my call to action for everybody is to just pause and take a breath sometimes and, again, walk through in a very intentional way, get back to the why.

1:22:45Greg Hoffman:You know, what's truly distinct about this product? How is it, you know, and then how do we present that in a more profound way? But we have to respect. So I'll tell you one other brand, a couple others, but there's one other brand on this subject that I think hit a home run over the last year, and that's The Gap, you know, an American heritage brand that, you know, was part of so many people's lives in a big way. Back to going beyond product and you actually, you know, have a relationship with a brand, right? That was really the 90s in terms of the gap. And they had multiple iconic products through their apparel, whether it was their khakis, their jeans, et cetera, et cetera.

1:23:36Greg Hoffman:Then it really lost its way, right? You just really didn't have a sense of its standing and purpose in the world and in your world, right? But the reason I say the Gap is they reintroduced their denim to the world by collaborating with the musical group Cat's Eye. And just like the Montclair Warmer Together campaign, that Gap commercial, right, which was anchored in this incredible anthem music and dance with this particular group. And, you know, it's an example when I say partner with culture, don't chase it. That's an example of that. And so, again, that is a brand campaign. It's really rare for any of us to willingly share brand campaigns with our friends and family, et cetera, right, on that.

1:24:39Greg Hoffman:We're too busy sharing other pieces of content. But that particular campaign became omnipresent in culture and on people's scrolls. And you could imagine the lift. But what I think people saw is a clear point of view around Gap's iconic denim that had always been there. They just stopped respecting it and needed to shine a light back on it. So use that particular example as, you know, you're not doing collaboration as a stunt because that happens every day, right? You're using collaboration more as a bridge between, in this case, heritage and youth culture, right? You're introducing the brand to a younger generation, but it's still connecting to the people that had always had that relationship as well.

1:25:37Did you ever get a chance to collaborate with Phil Knight? And did Phil push you at all during your tenure as you rose the ranks at the brand? I had the opportunity to be somewhat around Phil in the locker room sometimes when we were at Oregon because he was very like into the basketball team and the football team. But I read his book and I felt like he also had this sort of obsession with being great and just beating these other brands that were around. And I know Adidas at the time had like 80 % of the market. And to come in as this little brand based out of Portland and to, quite frankly, kind of kick their ass back into a bottom spot comparatively to where Nike ended up being.

1:26:25What did you learn from being around Phil?

1:26:28Greg Hoffman:Yeah, again, I write about this in my book, Emotion by Design, and where I had the privilege of hosting and moderating a conversation between Phil Knight and Dan Wyden, the late, great Dan Wyden, who came up with the slogan, Just Do It. and it was the 25th anniversary of Just Do It and it was an honor to sit on stage with those two legends and listen to those origin stories on that. And, you know, something Phil said on stage that, again, I just think it gets us away from taking a one-size-fits-all to everything we do from a brand-building standpoint because his advice to the future leaders of the brand, and he used a golf analogy, and he just talked about how you have all these different clubs in your bag, and each shot demands maybe a different approach and a different club to hit, but ultimately, you know, the sum of the parts equal the whole, And all those different shots ultimately are going to construct this powerful mosaic of your brand, a brand hopefully that people feel in the deepest way.

1:27:55Greg Hoffman:And I think Phil, what's amazing is he understands what it takes to create passionate, engaged people of your brand that almost have an irrational love for it. Like, I have an irrational love for the Jordan brand, right? I'm wearing the Jordan 3 black cements right now, in my opinion, you know, arguably the greatest sneaker that's ever been designed, right? So, and I think when you have someone, you know, just in the back of your mind or that voice on your shoulder saying, is this good enough, right? Can we push this further? Never be satisfied. Never be complacent on that. It's quite powerful.

1:28:48Greg Hoffman:So I always just absolutely appreciated to have a founder as well as an ethos within the company that had such a high standard, right? And that everybody that went through the virtual or physical door to work every day knew they weren't just going to do a job, right? Like you had a mission. The mission was really clear, serve athletes. And so that comes from the legacy that Phil built, right? And so what I would say to founders, I don't care if it's a small brand or a large brand, it's really important as you grow to continue to share the stories of failure or breakthrough or overcoming things with your teams through the different generations.

1:29:53Greg Hoffman:Because at the end of the day, those stories showcase the values of your brand. Every Nike employee knows that the co-founder, Coach Bill Bowerman, used a waffle iron to create outsoles for running shoes. So what does that do by making sure that story is told over and over? That's your culture. Those are your values. It's undeniable, and that, by the way, is your standard. So imagine if you're in a company that doesn't share any stories, and there isn't a standard, and people are confused about their values. You know what? Those are companies that produce commodities. They produce things that, quite frankly, are interchangeable, and here today, gone the next.

1:30:48Greg Hoffman:And so I think back to brands that, and this is why I spend so much time, you won't see me in the media talking a lot about the how, how we're going to deploy and distribute content campaigns on that. And that's because oftentimes I'm talking more about culture and the internal cultures necessary to create brands for the long term. And that goes even for personal brands. And the work I'm doing around Beyond Your Limits, which is a platform and a masterclass that's about building strong personal brands as athletes, right? It's not just taking advantage of the moment. It's how do you build a strong foundation and a North Star so that everything you do has a compounding positive effect.

1:31:49Greg Hoffman:on that. And so a lot of those lessons though, come from those, you know, my, my earliest days as, as a Nike employee. I need to know your top three favorite Jordans. You have number one is Black Three Cements. Yeah. And then number two is the, you know, Jordan 11 Space Jam. Okay. Again, it's really tough between those, those two. I mean, they're both designed by the legendary Tinker Hatfield, but those two shoes, I believe, are not just perfect, but the level of personality, back to products having a story and a persona. I mean, Tinker had just kind of mastered that ability to create something that functions, create something that is style leading, and then something that in some ways is living and breathing.

1:32:47That's not easy to do, right, on that.

1:32:51Greg Hoffman:And so I go three, just in terms of the styles, three, 11. And then it gets tough for me, right? And by the way, you can play in both of those products. That's what's amazing. yeah i love the 12 but man i i don't it that that's tough to plan i had no idea that air force one was made as a basketball shoe to start i only that kind of blows my mind yeah this is this heavy but here's the deal i i you you don't know in intuitively or consciously but i think subconsciously, your subconscious knows it was because that's what Nike has always been, is building tools and services for athletes, right? And so I love that you said that.

1:33:49Greg Hoffman:It kind of proves the point. There's a reason you're wearing that, not just because I'm on this podcast, but there's a reason you're you're you're wearing that it's it's like the it's it's wanting to wear the the uniform of sport without having to wear it i mean i remember the first time i tried on the air force one like i if for whatever reason i never thought it was a shoe that i could rock or whatever and then they kind of became pretty popular i was like you know what screw I'm going to go try a pair on. I put it on. I walked out of the store with them on. I was like, I feel different right now.

1:34:27I feel good. You know? Yeah.

1:34:31Greg Hoffman:I mean, look, and no question, the versatility of that product as well, its simplicity, it allows it to be worn in many different situations with many different looks and sets on that. So on the on the topic of building athlete personal brands, because we teach a lot of business owners how important it is to build a brand online for themselves and how it is an unfair advantage right now to be a founder that is forward facing and is the number one spokesperson for a brand. When you think about athletes specifically, what do many of them mess up? Because we have a lot of brand builders that will listen to this show, for example.

1:35:14But I'm curious, with the athletes that you're teaching this stuff to, what is it that they need to be thinking about early on when it comes to building their personal brand online?

1:35:25Greg Hoffman:Yeah, well, it's a great point. And I think you would think, right, with all of the information available, the tools available, that anyone can jump into this. And certainly within the athlete universe, whether you're high school, pro, college, or international, quite frankly, it can be a bit intimidating because there is so much choice. And you're only seeing the loudest voices certainly online on that. So, again, I think what we're trying to create is, like, let's just take a breath here for a second, right? And let's first start to, again, as we talked about with the Air Force One, define emotional value and define what it means to make people feel and make people feel a connection to you and your journey and your aspirations.

1:36:26Greg Hoffman:And that's kind of starting to think about the power of building a community. That's their step-in-step with you. So some of it's just a philosophy around that. But really the first, and again, it's a seven-episode series at the center of this, right? But I call it building your brand arena where we take you through some simple exercises back to build a foundation and a North Star. Now, does that mean you need to actually write down what your mission is and vision and values? Not necessarily, but it is about creating a mindset so you understand what you're going to say yes to and what you're going to say no to and why.

1:37:10Greg Hoffman:What are those filters? We talked about Kobe Bryant. the Mamba mentality. He was 100 % in tune and had fully, you know, dimensionalized, you know, the method, the philosophy, and the approach of the Mamba mentality, whether it was in business or in play. The fact is we all have some sort of mentality we approach the game with, but we rarely take a breather to define what are the tenets or the attributes of what that is, right? And so the other thing is, and then practical things like building a visual identity, right, as well as building a brand personality. So look, the pressure right now in terms of it's not that people get this wrong, but there's such a rush to deliver content as fast as possible and with great frequency, but there's little conversation around what's going to be authentic and unique to you and what you believe and what your approach is to the next person so it's not just more noise.

1:38:31Greg Hoffman:So we're just doing some of those classic branding and brand building approaches on that. And then, yes, we do get into the tenets of great storytelling and world building right on that. And I think sometimes if we think this is only about creating a content engine, we're going to miss the longer-term play, which is building a world with multiple revenue streams, multiple different platforms to do this. So we do have a part of this which we call passion to profits, right? But we don't want to get there because if the conversation starts with start creating reels, build up your audience, brands will start to incentivize you.

1:39:27Greg Hoffman:And that will be a part of this. But we need to master the fundamentals of brand building, in my opinion. When I think of, and there's so many people to take inspiration from. I think someone who's done a great job of, you know, when we talked about Kobe Bryant, part of this is naming and claiming it. Naming your franchises, if you will. I look at Bryson DeChambeau, the golfer, right? And the fact that he's created this kind of IP in this franchise property called Breaking 50. where it's adjacent to what he's doing as a professional in competition, but he's also off competition and going to all these courses around the world to try to break the course records.

1:40:21Greg Hoffman:Oftentimes he's doing it with another athlete or celebrity on that. You look at people that have started to create their own signatures. You have athletes like Cole Palmer, who's a footballer for Chelsea, and his celebration is the Cole Palmer, where he scores a goal and he acts like he's shivering on that. Or Holland for Man City, who does a lotus pose. But they're actually trademarking this. And so we're kind of, you know, we talk about someone like Lando Norris, who, in my opinion, has the best athlete website on earth right now. Why? Because he's not just selling merch, right? So there's more than just creating content and selling T-shirts.

1:41:18Greg Hoffman:Like we can create robust, enduring brands by arming ourselves with some different frameworks that, again, can just be top of mind as we're being asked to make appearances, as we're being asked to represent or post about someone else's product that we might be associated. and also associate ourselves with different people that is either on brand or not. On the topic of profit, athletes get thrown large sums of money and it's oftentimes a partnership with like a major brand. And a lot of times it can be a partnership that really elevates them if done correctly. However, with NIL now a thing with high school and college athletes, there's a lot of kids who are being successful as athletes, they're seeing success, maybe they're gonna get drafted high up or they're like at a very prestigious school and they're gonna get drafted.

1:42:25Like what advice do you have for young athletes who are building their personal brands and they're seeing success and they're getting potential large sums of like family changing money from these NIL deals with the caveat that if you partner with the wrong brand, It can also be super detrimental to your brand, similarly to partnering with the right brand can actually elevate your personal brand.

1:42:50Greg Hoffman:And you're right. Through my career, it's always been really clear that what we say no to is as important as what we say yes to when it comes to building a brand. You can spend years building a powerful brand and you can erode it in a day. right? I think we know that. We've seen that on that. So the point is, even at a young age, what are going to be the governing factor, right? And that's why I still go back to product places and people in terms of what you say yes to and what you say no to will ultimately define your purpose and your mission. So let's go back. If I'm in the high performance business as a high school or college athlete, meaning I am not in any way leaving it to chance in terms of how much time I spend preparing my mind and my body and my focus so that when I show up on game day, I'm ready.

1:43:57Greg Hoffman:So obviously there's going to be some brands that I'm just not going to engage with. It could be soft drinks, high sugar content food and beverage that doesn't align with if what I am and what I mean to people that believe in me is someone who is living a high performance lifestyle, shouldn't that act as a filter to everything you evaluate, right? So versus all of a sudden, you know, because today you might get a gambling app company might ask you to partner with them. And you have to, and that's why I say it's like, it can be a simple process of just saying, okay, if this is my craft, If this is ultimately at this moment in time what I'm known for, which is what I'm doing on the pitch field or core, then how do I lean into that and add even more equity and value into that?

1:45:10And it means aligning myself to ensure that the products I'm going to, you know, associate with and partner with are all going to point back to this high-performance position.

1:45:24Greg Hoffman:Now, with that said, someone else might say, well, I'm high-performance, but I take a lot of pride and time in my personal style, in the fits that I wear every day. And so I am going to say yes to certain fashion brands, certain brands that, you know, have that same sense of premium standard when it comes to design. So again, it's just look at your daily life and your daily ritual and the things that you're most passionate about make you you, and you will find these different adjacent product categories that seamlessly fit. Because at the end of the day, what I mean by don't chase cool is we always want to make sure that the audience can see the connection.

1:46:19Greg Hoffman:Otherwise, it just looks transactional, and therefore, it's a turnoff on that. And so make sure that you can articulate what that authentic connection is between you and the said product opportunity on that. So, again, it's not just product. It's also places. You're being asked to show up in all kinds of different places. But by now, you've probably in your head are pretty passionate about giving back in a certain way through a particular nonprofit or the way you volunteer your time. Right. And so that's also going to define what you say yes to and what you say no to. I think that's a really good frame.

1:47:08I want to leave us today with what is the legacy that you hope to leave behind with all of the work that you put back out into the world?

1:47:18Greg Hoffman:The legacy, especially in this moment in time, is to, again, help people unleash their inner creativity and ingenuity within themselves, within teams, and within brands, right? And I do have this thing where I want to see us build a more human future. And I want to see us build brands that value humanity both within and outside the business. And so it does mean that we have to then lean into those human characteristics. And I am pro-technology. I'm pro-AI. But use that as the kind of fuel and rocket fuel, if you will, to take our brands and take the world to new places. At the end of the day, how can we expect to take our customers and our followers someplace new if we're not willing to go there first ourselves?

1:48:26Greg Hoffman:So let's go first. I love it Greg this has been such a fun conversation one of my favorites ladies and gentlemen this has been episode 197 of the 505 podcast if you're still here please hit the subscribe button drop us a comment leave us a like and we'll see you guys all next week peace you made it to what some say is the best part of the episodes I can't believe they're still letting you into this after party I keep making it past the door it's a weekly thing they must know you at this point they do they do know me at the front I talked to them they were like yeah it's this charity thing this dude claims that he knows those people in here my dad owns this bar yeah okay this was such such a fun episode one of my favorites ever I I completely agree so many interesting learnings I want to start us off with something that I found to be very impactful and it's that brands aren't just selling a product they're selling a promise for like a better version of yourself with the thing that is the vehicle.

1:49:23I found that so interesting. And I think it shines through with all the things that they did while Greg was at Nike. This was a masterclass in marketing and in building identity within your brand and direction. Because the last thing that we all want is to be doing things that are meaningless or without direction. It's interesting too, he talked about this at the very end briefly about athlete personal branding, but it's very similar to the things that we talk about with people when we coach them on just regular, like regular personal branding, not being an athlete, right? And how you have to know what it is that you want to be known for.

1:50:03You kind of have to have an idea of the impact that you want to have or what you want to be talking about, the lanes of which you're going to be hanging out in. And I found that to be very interesting because he's been at the forefront of athlete marketing and athlete branding for three decades. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. did you see it was a co-founder i think of youtube okay he tweeted i was kind of going viral for his tweet right now he said that he had a tweet that said enjoy the last year of meaningful work oh did you see this wow no i didn't see that but that's a crazy crazy like hot take and statement and i understand what he's saying but i i disagree because i think that like regardless of I think regardless of how you make the work whether it's you know using AI or not I think that like your North Star and like your purpose behind creating the work and why you're making it serves meaning I think we're going to crave regular creators I genuinely believe towards the end of the conversation yeah he brought it up he was like I want to move towards a more human world and I really think that I think that's where we're going and I think that's what we're going to crave I think there's going to be a world where like yes there's a bunch of you know platforms and tools that we can use to be able to create things quicker but I think people are really going to crave the world where people are putting time and energy and craftsmanship and using their hands and their minds to actually make stuff I agree.

1:51:46I think we will crave this sort of like, it's going to feel analog using a camera and actually editing is going to feel analog. I mean, people kind of already are craving that. I mean, it's definitely what we're both gravitating more towards. Well, it's interesting because we brought up photography in the podcast. I know you aren't really a photographer. You're obviously more so heavy on the video side, but you enjoy taking photos. Yeah. Have you ever shot film? yeah it's a different feeling for sure yeah it's um i had a i actually bought one of those little kodak camera kodak cameras the other day for a shoot and there's just something really special about having to wait to get those images back it's funny because they are by far when i took it to salt lake city or park city to go snowboarding me and chloe had like a film camera that i got it developed there's something special about having to wait and not knowing what the photo looks like are they getting them back it's like oh let's see what i got on christmas day yeah and it was cool i think that i will definitely invest into some sort of really nice film camera later this year because i think it's a it's a fun medium but i totally get what you two were both saying about how photography feels like it has been just made so accessible which it has like every like you're saying everyone's a photographer but there's still a certain thing that some photographers can pull out because I was hiring someone for a shoot that I have with Hoka this weekend and this gal shot Sam Newton's film festival and I saw the photos I immediately was like there's something special about whoever shot these like they aren't just event capture yeah feels like you're really right there in on these intimate moments and they still are very fly on the wall-esque but I feel like you're really getting emotion with these shots and I don't think most people can do that like you're saying right like the what separates the thing that you see through your eye versus what joe schmo sees with just their iphone it's different yeah and also he brought up an interesting point that um everyone now has access to make like really good stuff like there used to be the moat of their quality or something quality like this person's not a natural graphic designers or they so there's a moat there where you're either you have to either have you know incredible design skills or you're gonna have to pay a premium to like make a really good looking website and now it's so accessible um and the moat now more than ever is taste and it's what's interesting is he said that one of the most important jobs moving forward is actually going to be the creative director because i don't i don't think we'll move into a world where it's like AI fully takes over and replaces everyone's job.

1:54:34It's just like, who can like prompt AI the best and you still need taste in that. And then the Montclair example that he brought up with, I forget the two actors. Who are the two actors? De Niro and Al Pacino. Yes. Boom. and it's like maybe chat gpt could come up with like that idea or whatever um but not to the full extent i think that montclair was able to pull it off i think that storytelling is always gonna win yeah and i at the end of the day we all forget this is uh i think it's moving so fast everything around us especially if you're like in this world everything feels like every day there's 27 new updates and all this crap to keep up with i mean i sent you two twitter videos last night mind-blowing with meta ads and i saw a new thing where it's you screen record something and then you upload the screen recording and it turns the screen recording into like this 3d render insane looking screen recording that's pretty crazy and i'm like what the fuck yeah it seems like every day it's just getting noisier and noisier and more difficult to stand out if you are a brand especially because more a person yeah building a personal brand either both of those you know um but i i think what with silver lining and all of this we are always going to be the buyers we're the buyers like we are the consumers of the product and we have the or we have the ability to curate what it is that you're getting fed like a little bit by pressing not interested or certain things like that.

1:56:19So I wonder if in the next three to six months, if we do see a new feed pop-up that is... You think? I don't know. There's a possibility. There's a possibility. I know for a fact that right now YouTube is dealing with a problem where a lot of the recommended videos on shorts are 100 % AI-generated content to kids. And so they're seeing a massive problem with that and they're trying to figure out a workaround around it to combat it being just like basically slop that's being fed. It's super interesting though. Man, yeah, that is crazy. Another thing he brought up that I thought was pretty interesting was finding inspiration outside of your own industry.

1:57:04I think especially in like the content world as content creators, we're oftentimes looking for inspiration and we're following certain creators where we're like, I like their style or you see a piece of content and you're like I want to try to emulate that but in my own in my own way and I personally have felt the most inspired when I get out of my own routine when we travel have certain conversations with people maybe not even in our industry some of the most some of the most uh inspiration i have felt is like through some of these conversations on the podcast where it's like i still remember talking to ross mckay and he's not a quote-unquote traditional creator like me and you he's like an entrepreneur who happens to be forward-facing but thinking about or talking to him through his decision-making process and how he thinks about branding like that gave me inspiration or when we went to hong kong or going i just recently went to panama like getting out of your i guess bubble or niche to find inspiration pick up a book like i when's the last time you read a fiction book that wasn't like personal development i've never read a fiction book so besides like elementary school Yeah, I haven't read a fiction book.

1:58:32The last fiction book I think I read was The Hunger Games. And I'm tempted to start picking up and reading more fiction because I think that there's incredible stories in fiction books and maybe I'll find some inspiration from that. I like that. I won't be doing that because I don't like fiction, but I think that's cool that you're going to do that. You don't like fiction? No, I like business books. Those are the books that I find really interesting, but I get why people like them. And I think it, uh, I think it'd be cool if you brought, dude, share some of those stories with the rocks. What's, what's interesting.

1:59:09I think the reason that's held me back from, okay, I'm so interested if someone's like this deep into our, in our episode, I'm curious to drop a comment or send us a DM. You know, they make books that are under a hundred pages too. So they're as intimidating. that's great um those are too too small for me i really like to you know get my teeth into something but for a very long time i think i avoided fiction books because i i had this preconceived notion or like this thought process that like if i'm reading it needs to be about personal development and how to better myself and i'm almost like i don't have time to waste to read some like fake story, but I almost think that that's an ass backwards way of thinking about it.

1:59:52And maybe if you do get lost in this like incredible book, incredible story, maybe it sparks another, or maybe it sparks some inspiration that you can then bring into your own work. I like that. So I'm curious to see or to hear from you guys if you have felt that same thing or if it's just me. I also love what he was talking about being curious about the work that we're doing and looking into these different things for the inspiration. I love like he brought up the architecture and all these different things that he pulls into their work. I remember even in his book too, they talked about how they made a shoe.

2:00:25They'd went to Japan with the leadership team and went to an origami exhibit and then ended up creating a shoe that resembled origami in the way that it had a bunch of different triangle shapes that were a part of the shoe. And then it also collapsed down, which is very interesting. So I think the creativity, or I think that we would be shocked to where we can pull creative inspo from. Another thing that we didn't get a chance to talk about was on those leadership trips, they would go to experts in their field. They brought up the one about suits going to like the nicest tailor in London. But when they were in Japan, they went to a swordman or a swords, what's the word I'm looking for?

2:01:10A sword maker? Sure, that works. They went to a sword maker's shop and this guy was the top of the line. It's been passed on for generations and generations. And he's like the most elite swordsman of that area. And they just saw the dedication to the craft that he instilled onto every single member of the team to make these one of one swords. And how they pulled that into what they're doing with their shoes. And when they go back to design, you know, all of these different elements that make up a new Air Max or a new Jordan or things like that. I found that really interesting for like how he's going about and pulling these different things and it seems like From all these people that we've spoken to on the show that are very successful and have done really big things in their industry They all obsess over the thing.

2:01:55He even said himself. He's like i'm a very obsessive person I think that these people that we've spoken to all of them are obviously really great at what they do they love the game they love finding different paths to the same answer they love diving deep into different different things that we wouldn't expect to come out with a beautiful composition of a shoe or a silhouette or something along those lines so i found that to be very interesting yeah i think it's just so cool that we were able to talk to like a former c-suite executive of one of the most recognized brands in the entire world it is it is crazy the conversations we've been able to have because of this podcast and thinking about who we'll be able to get to connect to in the future is going to be awesome what's also interesting about him is he spent 27 years at nike and he could have just retired and been good and he like he's kind of just obsessed with it and loves the game he loves the game like loves building brands and now he's you know transitioned more into helping athletes build their personal brands as opposed to working with a brand like nike like a regular brand um and i i could see that like for us too where You want to teach and give back until like you can't.

2:03:19It doesn't matter. Like if we're going to be 70 or 80, like we're going to be continuing. You need to post that YouTube short.

2:03:26Greg Hoffman:Yeah. It's so funny. Any other insights that you liked from him? I loved what he said about volume creating better ideas. Yes. Especially for beginner rocks who are just getting their feet wet, creating content or anything for that matter. about how volume does create great work. And it's something that in the beginning, you feel so tied to the first things that you make. But you'll look back in about 30 or 60 days with pure disgust for like most of the things that you make in the early days. That's a really good sign that you're growing and that you're learning and that you're getting better.

2:04:02It's not a sign that, oh, like I was bad then. It's like just the rite of passage for making anything creative. and I really like what he said about they would ship a logo you know they come up with a logo he was he's like has a design background right elite designer the first logo that he or his team would come up with he would always urge them to come up with a totally different sample instead of just a slight variation or slight tweak because that's like the very easy thing to do oh what if we just change this one element or change these two elements to come up with something that's totally different to bring better ideas to the table.

2:04:39And I really liked that. And I think that that's something that I need to remind myself of in the creative work that I do to not just take the first thing that I think is like, that is my way or the highway or that is the correct answer. There might be something deeper if I sink my teeth into it more that I can make something that's way better than my first idea do you do you feel that you often think the first idea you come up with like you have to be married to or do you find yourself like leaning on like holding on to that yeah i think you hold on to it i don't know if i'm necessarily like married to it but it is definitely like uh oh this is i thought this was good in the moment i'll give you an example the horse doc the first minute i did it i was like i'm done this is it and then after i watched it like 76 more times.

2:05:28I was like, this could be made a lot better. And then I just completely scrapped the first minute, which was realistically about 14 hours of work, which is awesome. And I scrapped it and completely redid it. And then I really liked it better the second time. But I think that just, uh, that happens, I think with creative work, especially because with, but you have, I almost like you have to, you couldn't get to your second version. It's not like you could skip those 14 hours of work no uh and you also you kind of gotta like battle with it yeah to get to the get to the end spot that was it was a very interesting relevant revelation from this pod i'm excited to edit it and kind of like listen back to it because there's certainly things that within a two-hour conversation of like trying to listen to what he's saying and then think of a question to follow up it's you're never like a hundred percent present you know what i'm saying and so i always find that like when i go back and edit these episodes i always find nuggets that i'm like oh fuck i forgot you said that like i didn't catch that the first time around that's incredible so this is definitely one where i'm stoked to go back and when you went to the bathroom briefly like after we wrapped the team that he used to oversee is the team that me and sharif are going to talk to at Nike in like three and a half weeks.

2:06:44That's awesome. So that was pretty crazy that got to talk to him about a lot of these ideas. What insights did he, or did you ask any insights of like how to pitch? Not how to pitch, but like. I asked him about my idea going into it of what we want to do. And I don't want to say anything else about it, but he said it was a good, it was a good idea. He's like, I think that'll do well. so that is that is going to be a fun conversation a month i'll let you guys know how it went but we're going to beaverton i'm about to get dripped out in all nike and go in there are you gonna go or do you have enough nike gear are you gonna go i'm gonna go i'm going shopping we got an employee store pass i'm gonna go oh you're gonna go shopping beforehand oh yeah i'm gonna buy so much shit i'm definitely i'm gonna go to the nike store here in la and see what i can pick up but i don't want to just come in in like a tech sweatsuit i want it to be like cool pieces and i think i'm gonna go get a hat made that's like blue stripe x nike or something no you're not gonna do that yeah it'll be tough for the day you know it'd be cool i thought you said you wanted to win the pitch we're gonna win the pitch i might even give out i think we're gonna get matchbooks made which would be cool and maybe like potential hats which would be kind of sick matchbooks to hand them out town them out little little matchbooks little cool matchbooks a little remembrance of like hey these guys are cool and nice as a light a candle you know what i mean that's kind of what I'm gonna try to brainstorm some good ideas for you brainstorm some good ideas for me man match custom match matchbooks are sick you don't like custom matchbooks I love custom matchbooks that'll be fun custom water bottles Saratoga X Nike X blue stripe maybe that'll be cool something something I need gifts dude I want cool gifts remember remember the rocks he's someone who I want to have on again yeah I dude they were so he also like 14 hours.

2:08:31It's so awesome when a guest has so much insight into just like one question. I feel like we asked him maybe a tenth of the questions that we had written down. I know. I know. I'm pulling up because I want to get this correct. Who was the rock? So Big Rock Jack, shout out to Jack, the U of O, for connecting us. Thank you. It means a ton. We would have been shit out of luck without you, man, because that was such a fun episode. And I learned a ton. I hope you guys learned a ton. And it feels like it's only the beginning. Really does. 190. He was 197. It's crazy. It's insane. We're approaching 200 episodes of doing the show.

2:09:13Who's going to be 200? I have no idea. Zero clue. Us. It might be. I know. I think it might be us for 200. That's a crazy accomplishment. Wait, that is kind of crazy. yeah because if this is and then we have greg veckia from bloom we have omar altacrari coming back on again we have a solo yeah i think it will be 200 we're gonna have to record a new intro for that we need to record a new intro for that for sure damn okay people fired up dude 200 is crazy let us know what episode you guys have been listening since like where'd you find us what episode i'm actually super curious about that because i met a rock like i said it was at three it found us at three when we had mitch mikes that's insane also shout out to galco from podstar he helped set us up with the the matt gray episode so that was uh that was super fun you guys have been helping us out big time with these guests it means a lot because we need yeah we need you guys man so help us let us know if any forward-facing founders that you guys know that are building on YouTube.

2:10:22I have really cool brands. Love to talk to them. Love to have them on the show. I think this is where we wrap this bad boy up. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been a phenomenal episode of the 505 Podcast. If you're still here, please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, leave us a like, let us know when you found us down in the comments. We'll see you guys all next week. Peace.