How to ACTUALLY Work with Big Brands (as a Solo Videographer) ft. Evan Tanaka

25:15And that makes things really different. Now it was necessary to make things work, but man, it is, the secret sauce that I think a lot of people are looking for, especially like, I always watch the directors. And I didn't really get to work with the main unit director on this one. So I didn't get to see him work or anything. But from my experience in the past, for other productions, productions you know i'm i'm looking to you know steal learn i want to adapt what they're doing because man they've been doing this for years it's not that much difference there really isn't the prep i don't get to see that there's a lot of prep that goes into this that maybe we don't get to see but when they're on set the cool calm collected like things that you would already think makes a good director you're right that makes a good director if you when you're on those bigger production, the million dollar shoots, and you see, you know, the team, everybody just knows their role, they're ready to work.

26:10And then there is no secret sauce. Everybody's just working really fucking hard. And they know exactly what they needed to get done. You brought up that there's a DP that you work with. Yeah. I'd love to talk about building your team. Yeah. Trust within building your team, and how you started to build out your team. Because a lot of questions we get is, you know, I want to work on these bigger sets, bigger brands. I want to start forming my team. I don't really know where to even look at. Do I just tap into my network? So I'm curious to see, like, how did you connect with the people that you're working with now?

26:46And how has it been building your team? Building your team is probably one of the hardest things to do. Like it is, I've, I've, I work with a lot of different people and I, I mean, I've been doing this now for like 10 years almost and really, really professional work in the, probably in the past five, six years. And like, it is still something that's ongoing, still trying to find those people. Now I was really lucky to get introduced to the DPI I work with now, Matt Rowe, you know, shout out, shout out my man. But like when I got introduced to him, I was working with a different production studio and they were like, they just said, you need to check out this guy, Matt.

27:27He happens to be off his feature and he's going to be here and wants to work with you or wants to work. Would you be open to having another work with somebody? I was like, of course. So I just think it's more of just being ready for those opportunities and saying, yes, even if you're uncomfortable or you have a natural person that you gravitate towards. I'm not saying that who you're working with isn't right for you, but you still need to be open and there's going to be different DPs that are going to be better for different projects, different, you know, photographers, different prop stylists, all of that.

27:58And I still build my team. I'm still looking for the right people. But I think if you can find those core two, three people, if you're a director and you find that DP, maybe a prop stylist, they're way more valuable than you realize. Wardrobe stylist. If you find those core people in your team and that you can always call on, you're in a really good place to just be able to have trust in at least one major department. And then you can go focus on the rest. And I think that's what I'm trying to work towards now is, can I just trust the people that are in charge of all my different departments when it comes to set?

28:34So I don't have to worry about that. And I can get to a place where I truly just worry about the creative and the narrative that we're the story we're trying to tell and make sure that that can get done. All of the finer details in terms of like how the lighting is going to look, how the styling is going to look, that can be handled with, you know, approvals, obviously, but that will be handled by the people that I've built and brought in. But it's hard. It's really difficult to find those people. On the flip side, if someone's listening to this and they're like, I don't want to start my own agency or production company.

29:04I just want to be a DP or a director and I want to work or AC, whatever it may be. How does that person get connected with production company agency. You hit brothers like us.

29:18Call us. Yeah. Call us. Yeah. Yeah. Call me. Here's my number right here. Have you been, have you been cold emailed from a, another DP or some, somebody else? Yeah. Emails, DMs. I mean, again, there's no secret to how to get in touch with those people. It is truly, if you want to build that relationship and you want to start building in and have that core, make whoever you're working for or reaching out to make their life easy. And again, very basic, but it's commonly just overlooked. It's when you, okay, here's an example. Let me loosen up for this one. So here's the example. Like if you get hired by, okay, let's say you're a director and you're a DP, or excuse me, you're getting hired by the director and you're the DP and you get brought on.

30:10And as the DP, you start giving pushback or you miss a meeting or, you know, something limited to that. Or it's just, there's always seems, you always meet the director's ideas with a little bit of hesitation. And then when it comes to, you know, building gear lists and things like that, or if you need additional crew, if you're stopping that train from moving, but you're just slowing it down, it's probably not going to be a great relationship. If you're, like, again, if you're still looking to make it and you're building that relationship and you're trying to find your director or whoever it is to work with, and you get reached out by them and you're like, I'm going to build this, make their life easy.

30:54Just, it's so simple. If you feel something, if you're like, hey, I'm going to anticipate this because I know you're going to need it, they're going to appreciate it like beyond. If you have a relationship with a rental house, like I got a relationship with a rental house, do you want to go there or do you have something existing? They may have something existing, but great. At least he sees or she sees that you're already taking the steps to get the production moving in the right direction and you're aiding instead of just like taking orders and marching orders. And then if you meet those marching orders with a bit of resistance, oh, I don't think I can do that.

31:28Oh, well, how long is a day oh it's i'm i'm only gonna be on for a 10 are we gonna be like 30 minutes after how long is lunch is lunch gonna be a long time uh it's like little things like that that really i'm dealing with that right now fucking drives me crazy and and look you everybody has the right to want those things but if you do that and you have the right to people will take that shit personally and they're gonna feel it and they know like okay so and so is good at their job but fuck man they just they always complain they're always complaining on set of the crafty's not good enough oh they they they didn't get me a coffee on set like that that shit happens all the time and it's just like it's an eye roll moment but those things add up and you're like i don't want to work with that person again well especially difficult especially in a city like la where there's so many talented there's so many talented people it's like you can find someone who's really good at their job and doesn't fucking yeah like and it's crazy and then okay here here's other smaller things renegotiating prices during your shoots, like that's wild to me.

32:29So like, I've had that happen to me. No, really? Yes. No. You hire somebody and like, here, this is a scope and you're not changing scope. And like changing scope is totally understandable. You need to like do that. I'll hire somebody and I'll be like, Hey, I heard you're a thousand dollars. We're going to hire you for a thousand dollars. And they're like, cool, I'm in. And then you start going into production two days, day before they're like hey you know what i just realized that uh this is you know it's gonna be a long day for me so can i get like maybe 1300 and you're just kind of like dude like it's the day before what am i gonna say no or yes so then you're like if i say no are you just gonna not work with us now and like we've you've known the creative you've known the prep and now day before you're just like hey can i get a little extra because it's a long day for me it's like it's a long day for everybody, but like, and so those, those things, you're not going to work with that person again.

33:23So keep that in mind. That's actually insane. You're, you're also, you're one of the few creative people who has an MBA and I want to know if running your business now today, if you've taken a lot of those things from the greatest alma mater, University of Oregon over Wisconsin. Yeah, your NBA must not be shit. Or if you felt like you could have just built the relationships from running it and learning it and figuring out or if you felt like a lot of that stuff that you ended up taking. Dude, that's a great question. I'll give you a tap on that. I appreciate that, guys. That wasn't even in the notes.

33:59I would say a little. And being completely honest. It's the same with advertising. I think there's no school better than experience, right? There's no school better than Oregon. There's no school better than Oregon. With that being said, didn't learn too much. Didn't learn anything. Yeah, I think if I can attribute the MBA to anything, it is more of understanding that this is a business, not a hobby. And again, that seems to be very obvious. I feel like this is the title of this podcast, like the obvious podcast. But it's like, it's, it's one of those things. Like I understand that there's a business that I'm running, but a business that they're running and a business that the brand is running there.

34:50Everybody is trying to better themselves. And since I have that understanding, it's like, okay, again, what can I do to make their lives easier? But like apples to apples of like, Oh, you know, my finance degree or the finance class I took here is being off here. No, I don't remember that shit. It's truly what grad school does for you is the relationships. And now I'm starting to see that benefit a lot, actually. So on that point, that'll be the answer is the relationships from grad school where the people that, and I think this goes for any college degree or anything. Not Wisconsin. Not Wisconsin, obviously.

35:27Yeah, but like a duck thing. And a duck thing because, you know, we're more creative. But do the ducks fly and the ducks hire ducks, man? Exactly. And every time, and like no joke, anytime that I work with an agency or anything that's up in Portland and, you know, 90 % of them came from Oregon. If I'm on the call and they don't know that I went to UO and I'm just like, oh, by the way, I went to UO. They're just like, oh, fuck. And everybody just rips it off and the O just tattooed on their chest. Fuck yeah, this guy. I'm now fully torqued. I'm ready. I'm ready for the job. I'm ready for this. No, but they have.

35:58The Ducks have hired me a lot. They're like, yeah, tons, tons of Ducks. And I think what really benefited me right out of grad school was I went to finance. I'm sure, again, I'm sure I talked about this last time, but I went into finance, worked there. And when I wanted my first creative job, my first production video photo job, a duck put me in touch with somebody else who was a former duck too, and they knew each other. And then I worked with them for a while. And that got my foot in the door in actually having a full-time creative production job. College is a networking tool, man. It is. And now I see like my classmates like are all doing some great, great things.

36:37And like tomorrow, I literally have a call with one of them for an upcoming project. And I haven't talked to her in, you know, five years professionally. You know, we talk here and there, but she's like, hey, I'm in a position that now we can bring you in. Let's talk. And that's how it works. So it's like putting in the time then have a good reputation at your college or whatever you're doing so that when they get down the road and they can do the hiring, you're ready. Has social media been probably one of your best investments for time to building out the business? Yeah. A thousand percent. I would not be here if it weren't for social media.

37:14There is, you know, it goes back to say there's so many talented people that do this now that you need to get in front of them in the right way. Like it is, if you don't have that marketing tool and getting in front of people, it's really difficult. It's hard. So it was definitely the best investment in my time to get to me in a place of like, okay, we see that he exists. Now let's see what he can do. Dude, I'm just laughing because... I see you chuckling over there. Yeah, what the fuck's he laughing about? Nobody knows. So me and Evan... If you're thinking about the highball, what was it? The can thing that you, Chris, and I were doing?

37:54Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like one of the first things that happened. I was just, I'm laughing because I remember Evan was hopping on TikTok. and this was after we I had met him for like this was maybe like the third time us hanging out or something and he just scams over and he opens up TikTok and goes man just plus 99 every time I open up

38:15plus 99 it can't even equate that dopamine hit dude there's nothing like 2020 TikTok 2020 TikTok was absolutely insane what a good time it was funny because when we The first time we ever hung out, and this is such an LA thing in my opinion, it was like we hung out, but it was like, let's make some content. Yeah. I know we went to your place and then we went to my house. Remember it was empty and vacant, had no furniture. I had just moved in there. And then we were, you, Avey, and I were shooting content out there. Yeah, that was great. That was good times, man. Okay, staying on the business topic.

38:53Sure. Let's talk about building out margins as a company and actually making money. Sure. Because I think that a lot of freelancers, they're just like, okay, yeah, this is the shoot. It's a thousand bucks or 1500 bucks. And it's like, this is what it costs to come to shoot and edit. And that's just like what it is. They're kind of just pulling a price out of their ass, honestly. I mean, that's production in general. I mean, that's like half the battle. Like it is just pulling it out of your ass. What are you worth? What do you feel like you're worth today? Like, and then tomorrow you're going to feel like you're worth less.

39:27or more. It's just how it goes, man. Like I've had people send me their rate cards. I'm just like, this is cute. Like this rate card is going to be, it's all over the place. And like, it truly is up to the person that wants the job is what they're willing to either be flexible because some jobs are going to be paying more. Some jobs are going to be paying less. It's up to you to decide, are you going to stick to your rate? Are you going to stick to something else? Or if you're going to be flexible to something else and that's that's hard take hard take on that well it's fair though i mean if they come to you and they're like it's 10 000 you were like this should be 30 000 but i want it yeah exactly i'll do it i mean we've all been there right it's not like uh i i agree we should all be paid our worth and we should you know work to that but i mean it sometimes the i'd rather be shooting than not shooting man exactly yeah and like the industry right now it's tough in terms of the commercial spot, the bigger commercial spot world.

40:26It's tough in LA. So I've seen DPs who are cinematic shooters that have worked on features shooting with iPhones just to get the job. Wow. So it's like when I get faced with people that are so hardcore of like, this is my rate and nothing less, good luck. And I appreciate you on sticking to your guns, but it's going to be a really hard time to build those relationships that I'm talking about. Because my rate will fluctuate so much that I'll be making, you know, 50 % less on one shoot. And then I'll be making 100 % more on the next. Because it's such an up and down battle based on the brands, based on their budget, based on the ask, the deliverables.

41:12And it's up to you. Do you want the job? Do you want to build a relationship with them? Do you want to prove your worth? or you're just going to stick to what your rate card says and that's it. So it's a hard game to play. We talked about this on the pre-show call, but on the topic also of you running a business and pitching more ideas, can you talk to a brand comes to you and they have a certain scope, they have an idea of what they want out of this production, but then maybe you throw out some ideas that is going to allow the budget to increase a little bit, but you do it in a tasteful way. It's not like you're telling them or offering ideas of something that is not a value to them or like they don't need it all or won't want it all.

41:55You know, adding, finding ways to add money to the budget that isn't already scope for is really tough. Because usually, at least in my world, when I'm going into, so like a commercial spot, even though let's say it's a million dollar production. by the time they're already doing the hiring, they've already gotten the budget to where it needs to be. And they've allotted different departments with that budget. So if I come to them with an idea of like, hey, I know that we're going to be shooting, you know, this certain concept, but then let's say I want to, what if we brought in a slow motion camera and we're going to have things falling from the sky and it's going to look super sick?

42:36Yeah, it's going to look sick. Great idea. But now you're talking about bringing in a phantom, a phantom tech. You need the drives to be able to hold that. And then you're talking about a post-processing process that's not already budgeted for. So you just expanded their budget by 10, 15 grand and that ain't going to fly. So I think where it, so my point is adding money to a budget post them already figuring out what that is, is really hard because nobody wants to go back to brand and ask for more money. But if you can find ways to get them more content, that's going to get you more jobs. So, and I think, you know, something that's really important on that note is give them more without making your lift heavier.

43:20If you can figure that out. Now, there's a secret that I think a lot of creators can take with them is what can I give you that's give you that you're going to feel like you're getting more without making my workload heavier? And I'll give you an example. um let's say you're a photographer and you're doing a tabletop shot and it's a pouring uh you know we're pouring the smart water into a glass of water and the the deliverable the scope is they just want one still of that frozen liquid going into the into the glass you can give them a gif gif whatever you can give them that and that takes no extra effort in terms of your production now if they want it edited different but if you're just going to hand them over the photos what that takes you an extra minute, two minutes to export.

44:04And in terms of the actual workflow on set, no extra time because you're going to have to burst shoot anyways. So that right there is a perfect example of you're increasing your worth and your value to the brand, to the agency, without making your job really that much harder, if not at all. So that's something that I think is more important than trying to find ways to add money to the budget. I'll give you an example of something I recently did. I went and shot a hotel and I gave them four videos. That was like what the scope of work was. I gave them five still videos for a carousel post. I didn't shoot anything more.

44:43And I basically just took moments from the already edited reels and I exported them as single frames. So they asked for four pieces of content. I got them five and it really did me, or it really took me not much longer. Not much longer, 10 minutes. You're just doing the exports, you're pulling them out. And I think that's such a perfect example. Same thing with Pan Express, going back to them. I'll do a tabletop shoot with them. And we have like, for a tabletop day, we're looking at anywhere from nine to 11 shots that we can get on a day. And for like the slow motion stuff. And we shot with an ember on this last one.

45:17But we have our final spot, but then I can offer them, hey, if you want individual clips of the walk toss, because that's a cool moment and that could be a good teaser. Let me just give you the string out of that. It's colored because it's colored already. And I can give that to you and maybe give you a 9x16, a 16x9, whatever you need. And that's an extra asset, that extra deliverable. You're also giving, you're taking the initiative to understand what their needs are. And that goes a long way. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that's the difference maker. Are you typically, because you're shooting a lot of stuff for social, Are you typically shooting vertical or do you find a lot of these brands are wanting a wide version?

45:57It's everything. You're just like shooting for the vertical in mind. Vertical in mind. It is still, it's so rare that we get to flip camera and shoot solely 916. It's always 16.9. Then we crop for 916. Yeah, I'm trying to think of like the last professional production that we've done that only required 9 by 16. If it's social and we're shooting with phones, that's one thing. But anytime we pull out the big camera, it's rare that we're locked in. Everybody wants that 16.9 safety. Yeah. Are they using it, though? Beats me, man. Beats me. I honestly think it's the crutch of the industry right now of the what if.

46:40Maybe YouTube. Maybe YouTube. And that's usually the go-to is we might run it as YouTube ads. And if we want to do that, then we need a 16.9. but I have been in the situation where I shoot something 916 and then I get asked for the 16.9 version and I go fuck and then I do a up res topaz and then or you do like a cool social edit and you have like individual frames that the three frame thing yeah yeah yeah we use a nano banana to generative expand oh yeah I've done that oh yeah I've done that do they have that for video yet? well you'd have to get the still and then you'd make it a video yeah so in the tabletop world a lot of the times not on purpose but a lot of times a camera doesn't move unless you're getting like a moco arm or something like that sure um but if it's if i can do a shot without moving camera you're so safe and i've done that many times of having to just build out the this left side or the right side or both i was doing a food shoot i'm not gonna name the brand because it's already out there um and it was a top-down shot of all the food and we were dropping a package into there now i'm sure somebody could find that what brand i'm talking about but we shot that 916 and they need the 916 or the 69 version yeah so i did use some some uh some other help to expand that scene and it worked out great can't tell that's how it's done yeah before we started rolling brayden you and brayden were talking about tripod costs yeah and how expensive gear is bro it's crazy what gear have you found that you've invested in that has been worth it versus like have you invested in certain gear that it's a really unique thing that you think you're going to use a lot and you think it's going to elevate your production and you really you've opened it once used it and you're like ah just haven't really touched it i'm sure i have i know i know i buy so much gear I got an extension on my 2025 taxes.

48:41And so we're still, I just sent it over to my accountant. And it's like, that's how much money I spent on gear last year. Oh, my God. How do we eat? I know that I have the slow motion camera that I bought, the FreeFly Ember. I love that camera. I'm probably one of very few people that use it for food, which I don't know why they haven't reached out to me. But they will now. That's why I'm here. Yeah, that's the whole point. No, that in itself, it was such a value add that I can give to brands because it is expensive. I mean, it's 20 grand, 25 for the full build out. So it's not cheap. There is a bigger barrier to entry versus like getting an FX3 or something like that.

49:27It's also harder to use and you have to have the right kind of light, the right kind of people that are involved with it. Yeah, you need a ton of light for it, right? You need a ton of light. It is, it's a bigger, it's, it's a lot more to it than just buying the camera. So I'm not recommending people just go out and buy an Ember and invest that money. But for me in my world, I can say, Hey, do we want to shoot this in slow motion? And this is like early day talk and I can get them excited about it. And I'm like, Hey, I got this camera. Nobody else got this camera. I got this. This is going to be fire, baby.

49:58And they're like, what is it? This is a free fire Ember. And, uh, and they're like, Oh, what is that? And this is so special. Nobody else has it. And they get really excited because then you can show them the sexy pores and the food falling. And that's what they want. They just don't have access to it. And they don't know how much money it's actually going to cost. And now it's the baby brother of the Phantom. But we can get them a lot of cool stuff with that camera. So that's been a huge one. And then I park it at a rental house, Rare Breeds. And it gets rented out by a lot of people. So that camera's probably paid for itself by now.

50:31and then you know that one that i thought was a huge investment piece and it hasn't really worked out too well is fx6 really you didn't you didn't think it was a good investment no because i used it a lot early on i was like i got super excited like with the bigger cinema camera now i'm more legit and then i just found like man the fx3 really just gives me that same quality that I'm looking for. Now the built-in NDs and all that stuff. But for what I do, when it calls for a nicer camera, we're going to get a nicer camera. We're going to go into the reds. We're going to get into the REs, like the higher-end Sonys.

51:10And the FX6 rarely gets used anymore. That's interesting. And because if it's going to be quicker things, I opt for the FX3 with the ND on it every time because it's just like, I know that camera. It's small. also the ISO on the FX6 is weird the dual base like it still has no it's I mean same at the FX3 it's got some noise but it's noise at the 12.8 and it's weird like I always take it to 12.8 back it off to like a 10. FX3 I've never seen that issue ever so it's that was like a big one for me of like this is I always opt for the FX3 yeah so FX6 is one of them and then there's like little pieces of gear.

51:48I remember I was shooting multi-cam stuff at the same time. So I bought a big monitor that was going to have multiple like images streamed to it. Used it once. Nice like four grand monitor. And I was like, no, don't ever use that. Anybody want to buy it? That'd be great to get rid of that one. Has the studio been a good investment? Studio has been awesome. Studio without a doubt one of the best so i own that studio uh it is it is constantly working it's a fucking mess dude you've got a real estate portfolio you're you're you're fronting as a production company he's a real estate investor yeah it's like mcdonald's you know what you're going on the space yeah own the land uh yeah i mean that's that's the goal right it's uh i think that's something that I did early on in my career is, I mean, I've thought this way since early on, maybe this is NBA, I don't know, maybe it's just me being worried that my back's going to give out and I can't hold a camera at some point in my life.

52:52But I, early on, when I was like running around the streets with Threadbeast, I don't know if you remember that brand, like early on subscription box, streetwear brand, I'm running around literally holding clothes on my back, I have one camera in hand with a gimbal and it was an R Sony R2 and I'm shooting video on that thing as well and you're not supposed to do that but whatever I didn't know the difference not even fucking coloring the footage because I had no idea what a what coloring was but it was so it was all log that I was sending over to them that's perfect like this is what the camera says and they loved it was like this is street so vintage man uh and it was so bad uh i remember too like on the streets of fairfax i was walking along this is early on and somebody was like yo man what kind of glass you got on there and i thought he was talking about a lens filter so i was like oh it's annd it's a it's a variablend and he was just like okay all right yeah cool bro um yeah that was a had no idea what I was doing.

53:56But even back then, I saw what my future was. I was like, I know in 10 years, I can't do this. I can't be rolling around the ground. I can't be doing holding cameras like this. And just this can't be my workflow for me when I'm a bit older. And I've approached every situation like that for my career of, yeah, social is fun here. But what am I going to do in 10 years? Am I going to be doing the same skits or same type of BTS? Or is it going to evolve? How is that going to evolve? So it's something that's constantly on my mind of all that. And that goes into the real estate play. Not that I'm like a real estate tycoon by any means.

54:34Not even close. I shouldn't even say that. But it's just like, okay, if I'm going to invest in a studio, am I going to rent it out? Or can I go a little smaller and buy something to build a foundation? And I'm always foundation guy. Build your foundation. Build on top of that. don't stretch out and overreach and then have to backpedal later on it always is a level up game for me not a backpedal the studio is so handy though and i feel it with here because now that we have a space that's set up it's like you could never not do this yeah this is a bitch and it's your it's a it's a fish tank right i'm sure you know the uh the fishbowl uh metaphor or whatever thing is, you're only going to grow as big as your fishbowl.

55:20And so it's the same thing for me. It's like, yeah, I've moved into that studio and it was great because I had come from the garage. It was time to get out of the garage and move into something a bit bigger. I went, I think my garage was 250 square feet, something like that. Now my studio is 1200 square feet. So still small in the relative eyes of other production studios. But for me, it was great. now it's i'm filling out my fishbowl and now it's time to start looking at something else interesting and so because now it's we've we've done so much there it started it's starting to feel like a workshop because i have so many like props and surfaces and uh all the gear is there and now we just now we just need to level up how big do you want to go oh great question uh as big as we can baby like i would love to get like 3 500 oh wow you want to triple yeah 4 000 square feet if we could get something that size uh we're in the place that we need you know offices and uh like war room and conference table and stuff like that war room war room yeah um kitchen like that would be great to have an actual kitchen for all the food that we do sleep there yeah that's the whole player so moving the family into the studio like that's what we were doing i was gonna say you know you just you never took anisa back yeah see she sticks around man she's gonna lose it on me uh no yeah it's like having the kitchen have all that so yeah big dreams ahead so hopefully we get there someday do you do you feel worried at all with ai in the space of what you're in or do you feel like because of the limitations around food that like it's safe solid question um so i i do think with ai and food this is not backed up by any research this is all this is all this is all here yeah this is what i think and how i'm coping with the situation this is the oregon yeah this is oregon mba speaking right now we just throw shit out there and it's like that's right right yeah that feels right um but there are so many rules and restrictions around food and what you can and can't do in terms of advertising like you have to use the right products and you have to if you're going going to be selling something that is, if you're selling the food that you're showing, you can't be using non-ingredients on it.

57:39So my take on this with AI is, one, since that's already in place, food is going to be really hard to touch. If you're making fake food and you're selling fake food and it's not real, you're not going to be able to do that. It's very similar to toys. Like you can't show, you can't sell toys to kids when in a commercial spot, it has to be a certain percentage of real toys to any animation. So the kids don't get into their minds that this toy can, you know, walk and talk and do something like that. cost us you know so that's you know i don't want to mislead yeah yeah and so like same with food it's the same thing you you can't mislead mislead the consumer um and then on top of that you know we're such in a society of organic and health like we how to me in my mind the way my brain works it's how can a brand who preaches organic community authenticity like all of these things and then they use AI to show their product.

58:40Like how does that make any sense for your brand ethos? So I think that world, if they're doing that, I think that's a problem because you're already showing a disconnect from your understanding of who you are as a brand and a product. But the brands that are going to realize that, yeah, I think AI is not going to be able to touch at least the product itself for a long time. What other industries, or what industries do you feel like will be heavily affected by... In production world. Yeah. In production world? So below the line type stuff? No, more so like industry, like a niche. Different niches.

59:19Yeah, yeah, like hotels or sports or whatever. I think hotels is relatively safe. I think sports are safe. I think sports. That was one that I've always said too, is I'm an advocate for that, because just live entertainment in general. Live entertainment, yeah, yeah, for sure. For event capture and that kind of stuff. there's going to be areas where AI is going to help it and elevate it. But I think in terms of like boots on the ground, it's safe for a while. Weddings. Weddings ain't going nowhere. The wedding peeps are set, dude. They are set. They're going to own the world there. I feel like for...

59:53Fashion, I think, is going to be tough. Yes. Because I think there's just a lot of... Shit, you can't even tell. You can't even tell. You can't even tell. Like fashion's interesting. So my mom has a girl's clothing line. And she's been... Plug it. She's been using... Malbo Sugar. She's been using a lot of AI images, though. Yeah. But it's just because she's like, we're about to launch this new thing. I don't have... I'm actually about to go on a trip. I don't have time to do a new photo shoot. Something's better than nothing. Yeah. And also, she'll sell not just clothing, but... My question, though, is what did they do before that?

1:00:29Your mom said she didn't have time to do the shoot. What would she have done before AI? just not have the content just not have it yeah she she's also um this is a whole different conversation but like puts you in the hot seat how you like it there's uh there she hasn't done a ton of like marketing she's built her really great business from doing trade shows in person building the relationships with the actual brands so she's been stepping more into the social stuff um but yeah we started doing i started helping her with more lifestyle shoots uh a little over a year ago um which have been great but yeah she's been using ai to you know with uh with some of the accessories like bracelets and all that kind of stuff is um maybe she'll take a photo and then she can use ai to kind of build out the world um but yeah it's i think that i think ai is going to get so good yeah because right now some of the images you look at and you can you're like it's good but you can tell that it's ai for sure i could see where it could get scary i think it could get scary but i think there's going to be some type of control on it that allows people to know that this was shot using ai i think it has to be has to be and they're already kind of doing that in certain circumstances there's definitely going to be a fucking stamp and it's going to be big i think location-based shoots are going to be kind of tough coming up here like there that's going to be something kind of what you just said how she'll take a picture of the product and build it out yeah so i think like i i literally just saw something where uh they did a photo shoot and this you know woman was a fashion brand she was sitting on a white cube in a studio and that was it there was nothing put her somewhere they put her on a train and it was epic looking now i'm not saying that it was just like a prompt and then there you go totally I'm sure there was a lot of finessing there but that shot that they probably would have had to get on the train because she's like looking out a window and that hammer had to be out there that's a$100 ,000 production if more they probably did that for$10 ,000 and then the editing took maybe$3 ,000 I think it's going to be hybrid like you're saying you'll shoot it on the nice camera maybe or you'll do it on a stage and then you'll have the LED thing and then you'll put it somewhere else if you want it to be somewhere else.

1:02:53And you'll save$100 ,000 for the permits, all the stuff like that. And you can do it inside. And you'll still have humans doing like the – I think the human aspect, I'd be shocked if we just totally eliminate the human aspect, especially in like fashion and stuff like that. If we're eliminating the models because we're using AI, full AI people too, that would be insane to me. but maybe I was having a conversation with someone about this the other day and we were trying to interview someone who does the planet earth docs and something that I think about that specifically why I think it's so fucking cool is it's so hard and difficult for them to get those shots yeah so it's like there is that aspect of this was so hard for you guys to get that it makes it that much cooler yep it like diminishes it yes it's a story behind it I mean that's like how photography is totally it's not necessarily just the shot it's the fact that you're in the right place at the right time the right moment like the uh i just saw who's the photographer i'm gonna get just freaking raked for not knowing his name that shot the famous muhammad ali shot and he's like standing over uh we met him at sony condo um i don't know yet oh no you didn't oh you get the invite oh god god damn it dude brayden's never got god damn was there got that plus one on the gang, baby.

1:04:15Come on, dude. I would be fucking pissed if I didn't get the invite. And I went. Because that means you got X from the list. I heard it wasn't sick. It was so sick. It was crazy. Different when you never make it on. But to go and then get X'd? Crazy work, bro. Dude, it's crazy to get... This is like... It doesn't matter. You never got invited in the first place. It doesn't matter. I get that. It's just like they made a mistake. Exactly, bro. No, no, no. Whoops. Exactly, bro. A lot of talking. A lot of talking from the 300 section. Dude, up in the nosebleed. Brain's in the fucking 500 section at SoFi.

1:04:53No, this guy's wearing an owner's club shirt. I didn't want to go, though, bro. Brain didn't even have a ticket to the game. Didn't even have a ticket to the game, dude. Did not even mean it for you to go that way. But yeah, anyways, time, place, that's what makes the photo sick. That's what I was trying to get at. So I threw on Planet Earth the other night, and Sarah Catherine is just like, what are you watching? I go, I don't want to watch any more reality TV. I don't want to watch. Love is blind and shit. No, no, no. What's the one that? Love, love is blind. Perfect match. I'm like, babe, can we watch some good fucking TV?

1:05:30I haven't gone that low, bro. But to your point, if I was to watch that and it was an AI generated movie, I'd be like, something's off. Like, I want to know that this is real. Yeah. I mean, like, that's, you know, now we're on this topic, but like Toy Story and all that, the reason why it was so impressive is that people created this using technology, but it was like the painstaking hours that went into it. I think there's still not an understanding of like the prompting world to get it there of like actually how hard that really is. No, it's a bitch. But you go into watching Toy Story knowing that it is animated and it's not trying to front as being real.

1:06:11Yeah. Well, because it was like, it just elevated an already existing art form, which was, you know, the 2D world. And then now they're doing the 3D thing. And it's like, okay, I get that. It's still people creating this. How impressive. Now it's kind of like getting rid of a lot to get there. But still, I mean, prompting is not, I think that's the issue that a lot of people see with all the advertisements out there about AI and prompting. It's like, oh, I just went in there and I made this prompt and there it is. And here, look at this final thing. And so, so great. It's hard. It's not that easy to create something that actually makes you think that looks real.

1:06:49Like, holy shit. I want to transition a little bit and talk about licensing because you're working with these big brands and I want to know how you go about licensing, charging for licensing, how that works in your world where you're working with these bigger brands, where it's living a lot of different places and maybe it's something just for social or maybe it's something for website or maybe something for broadcast. How does licensing work in what you do and how does that, how do you charge for that? Yeah. Is there a standard fee or is it, does it vary so much per project? It varies so much for per project.

1:07:27I'm still not the best at licensing. I'll admit that that world is really tough because it's so objective yeah of like what should i get paid again depending on the brand the brand might be a huge brand but they're not going to pay you a bunch of money because sometimes they're like you should be excited just to be working with us type of thing right like that's the vibe you get yeah and they might give you something but it's not like you're not retiring it's not like it used to be it's where the photographers would make the photographers would make like yeah exactly they would get like a twenty thousand dollar licensing deal for the year and then they'd be offered a buyout for like 60 grand.

1:08:03Like that's not unheard of on a full scale commercial project, but that really doesn't exist unless you're a top tier, top, top tier. I mean, I think the best thing that I've done is I let them, especially on early on, I let the brands lead the conversations a couple of times and I, you know, I like to ask them. I'm like, oh yeah, great. You know, I have a licensing fee or licensing structure. I don't. And this was early on. And I'm like, but if you have an idea of what you're trying to keep within, because I know you're working with the budget, you know, you play the nice guy. I like to play the nice guy with clients and everything.

1:08:37See what they come back with. And then you can build it off of there. And like, oh, that's what I was thinking, but that might be a little low. So let's, what can we do this? You know, like, that's, that's funny. You said that I was thinking. It's typically a little below my rate. Yeah, exactly. And so work with that. But then from there, you're like, okay, here's my, I did this work with X brand. And then, you know, another brand comes to work with you and you have something at least based it off of. And now you're like, this is my standard right here. I've only done licensing once, but this is my standard.

1:09:06And here, let me use that on the next one that I go on. Licensing is difficult, but definitely get a renewal, set up a six month, if you can, year at the most. Total buyouts are tough if you're going to do a total buyout, but sometimes that's what the brand needs they just want everything and they just want to own it and again it comes down to you do you want the job or not yeah that's how it goes man it's interesting i remember um get an agent you really care get an agent they'll take care of it all for you when i was shooting you have an agent now no okay no i've i've thought absolutely not yeah uh i've thought about it and you know it's something for photography i've really i want to explore.

1:09:49But it's a weird game. I've had a manager in the past for social and everything, and it just doesn't work out. I think the best thing I have going for me is personal connections, going back to that. Personal connections, working with a brand, true story. I worked with White Claw for many years, many years, three years, for three years. And I was doing one-off social projects with them and then started doing a little bit more here. Like I remember I did the white claw one with you, right? You jumped in the pool, we splashed and everything. I don't think you got any licensing fee for that. I was a big value on that shirt.

1:10:25I was the one doing the cannonball in the pool. That was a sick image. The way that came out was awesome. But I was working with them and then I got a manager and I was exclusive with them. And they were, they asked like, well, anything you do, we get a piece of. And I was like, okay, this is how it works. I gave them White Claw because we were going to South by Southwest gave them that contact after South by I never heard from White Claw again and it was just like that got rid of that relationship and at that moment I just went maybe this just isn't for me because I lost that personal connection even though South by went great I met the brand out there I met the agency oh you were working with White Claw at South by yeah and I like I went out to dinner with that.

1:11:10Like it was great. But then they hit that roadblock of the manager agent person that they had to go through. And they went, oh, we can just work with somebody else that's easier to work with. So it's like, I think you have to be at a certain level to really start thinking is a manager, are you trying to get a manager to get more jobs? Or are you trying to get a manager to level you up or an agent to level you up? And now in photography, I would only explore an agent to level me up, not to get me more jobs. What percentage of your jobs are you getting referral-based, network-based versus doing outbound?

1:11:44Are you doing any outbound? 100%. No outbound at all. I'm very, very fortunate. Social media was a great marketing tool for myself. I haven't done outbound in maybe three years. wow um everything again like i'm so sorry relationships yeah uh relationships relationships we should have it right here dude so you don't forget it here's okay here's what i want it yeah here's what i want to say about relationships because i think you hear uh you got to go out and network and you want to build these relationships i think before you can think about that you have to be good at what you do gotta back it up because with networking right no one wants to network with the no one wants to network with someone who isn't interesting yeah or isn't good at what they do and no one wants to go grab coffee with someone who's just like can i pick your brain and buy you coffee like no i'm a little bit for that and my networking i'm terrible at networking sure i don't like networking i don't like going to grab coffee i'm i grab coffee by myself um like i'm just like i'm not that guy to reach out to somebody or when they reach out to me i'm awkward in those types of scenarios give me three three four people in a group scenario fucking crush you're gonna say give me three four shots i'm a good time i'm a good time after four shots i am i am really good not awkward at all but yeah three four people strong like there but one-on-one networking sure no no thank you it's too much too much pressure Yeah.

1:13:23So when I talk about networking and relationship building, I'm really talking about how what your demeanor is on set and how you handle yourself in those emails and how can you make it personable. End of the day, ton of other people out there that could give a job to, but who do they want to work with? Who's a friend? Like who can and don't go into it like that because people can smell thirsty. And if you are like, hey, you know, what do you need? I'm here like this.

1:13:51It's about have confidence in your work but don't make it strict business and i think if you can strike that balance you're going to make a lot more long-term relationships than that and that kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier of there's so many good people out here yeah and so just by being a good person being personable it can feel maybe a little bit awkward because i think a lot of people they like to be behind the camera because they're maybe not like they're a little introverted um but yeah i think the the building relationships is is so important it it it can be a little bit difficult to hear because it's a little bit not like you can't tell someone what to say in a conversation no but you guys you guys are right i got a dm this is like last week random i hadn't heard from this person forever like we just said i don't whatever they dm me would you like to support me on a monetary thing for didn't send me any work i was like but what do you want me to just fucking send you money what is this what does this dm mean crazy like i do you guys ever get like the coffee invites i'm sure you do all the time do you do them no i'm i'm getting i'm getting this is interesting unless there's mutual thing there unless i'm like oh this person is insanely talented yeah we could work together on some shit i think that like i've had that happen a couple times yeah but that makes sense though because it's like you're doing this at a really high level.

1:15:15There's synergy here. It's not just like this is a waste of an hour of my time and this is only going to help you. Yeah, exactly. It's the same thing for me. I wouldn't hit someone up and I'm like, I can't really help this person. They're doing crazy shit. There's nothing here that I could like give to them. Or like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, no, I get it. I think, what's it, Gary V? Or there's no friend. They're like, you don't have a bunch. We don't have the same group of friends. It's like, it'd be like random of me to. But it's a value that you're adding back and forth. It has to be an exchange.

1:15:45A perfect example. On Wednesday, I'm getting breakfast with a guy named Dane. And he just does photography for interiors. That's cool. And my agency is focused on video. And so I'm like, it makes sense for us to connect. We also have a mutual friend. They can link and build. Our mutual friend, Brian, I was talking to him. He goes, he's not interested in building out the agency. He just wants to be kind of a freelance photographer. And I'm like, great. I could see myself down the road connecting with a hotel and them wanting photo and video. And I know I can do both, but it's like I'm not going to be shooting both.

1:16:25So it's like having someone like him in my network and vice versa. I'm sure he gets hit up by a hotel and they might want video as well. So we're at similar levels. We both do good work. there's a mutual beneficial there's something mutually beneficial that can come out of exactly yeah it's not just like hey dude let me pick your brain see it's different though but i'll say dm me on ig with any questions i invite questions yeah i'm down to help yeah i'm just not gonna drive an hour stuff you know what i'm saying but like i'll answer questions all fucking day like you ask me a question i live i will respond far away yeah you live here you live in you live in yeah he lives deep thank god it's memorial day yeah right now i know it was easy to get over bro it usually takes an hour to get over i was like this is a piece of cake but yeah and it's a big time commitment to go and get coffee the one time the the times that i make an exception is if it's for like school and they want to do like an interview and a report oh yeah and that's i'll do like a zoom call or something yeah for sure there but help the younger generation dude help the younger gen i think it's also like i feel like we all feel like the uh imposter syndrome too when people ask just to like pick my brain sure i'm like about what you know like i'm just i'm in the thick of it i'm still figuring it out i'm i'm fighting every day to figure out what my next job is going to be how i'm going to better myself like i'm still i don't feel like i've made it i'm just trying to so when you say pick my brain i'm just like oh hopefully i can give you something you know was there a shoot that was a big level up for you where you were like doing the social stuff still working mainly in your garage and then you got an opportunity oh that's a good one um one comes to mind but i'm trying to think if there was one earlier than that you have to say the name of the brand but more like what was the lesson yeah that i that i knew more than i realized i think that was that was the it it goes to that secret sauce when you're worried about crossing over into the professional commercial world and for me it's like what are these guys what are these girls know that i don't that got them here and a lot of the times it's not anything it's just hard work and experience um so i think that was it but it was probably the big one for me two ish, probably two and a half years ago is when I felt it.

1:18:53When I walked on the set, I was a director and I walked on the set and it was a multi set location. I didn't realize how big it was. I just, I kind of went into the same scrappy mentality. And this was, you were just a director. I was just directing. And that was also a good feeling of like, I don't get pulled into 15 different directions. I'm just solely here for director. my call time was later you know like you're just like where's the town man yeah like the pre i remember getting me coffee they were yeah where is the truck the pre-light like on the pre-light they were like oh crew call time is 8 a.m and i was like okay be there at 8 and they're like oh no you don't need to come until like 12 and i was like why why am i coming at 12 when everybody else is coming at 8 don't you be there yeah exactly i don't have to put stands up and lights up or something and that was like a big realization to me of like oh this is this is a this is different And the reason for it isn't to just like, isn't an ego boost.

1:19:48It's you need to focus on what you're getting hired for. And that was a big moment for me of like, this is great. I can focus on my job and not have to fulfill 10 different hats. How did you go from being the person who is shooting the thing using the camera to then I'm just directing? That like, was that again? Was that a relationship? It's not an overnight thing. One brand gave you a shot. You proved it. Keep crushing. Boom, boom, boom, boom. But it also is based on the work that you're doing. Yes, totally. It's not... No one's going to just hand you that fucking job. I heard this actually in Vancouver from another cam op that I was working with.

1:20:30And I'm going to butcher what he said, but it was along the lines of you can't become a DP within your own city. and what that meant was is when you're starting out in this world as a PA as you're and that's usually the route right you start a PA and then you move into like maybe you're a gaffer or a grip and then you want to be second AC first AC and then maybe you get your shot to be a DP because the people that you're surrounding yourself with at that early stage see you as that yeah and it's really hard to move up so unless you build a really strong relationship with those people and they see and you're all leveling up together and they bring you along for the ride, you're going to have to explore different opportunities.

1:21:11And then that body of work you're building, they will see it and then they'll start attributing different things. And then they see you can handle a camera or see that. And then that's how you're going to get pulled into these bigger productions. So similar to me, it's not like someone just one day was just like, oh, you're a director now. Now I had directed things, but usually it was ran under my studio that I was self-titled director because it was my production. Then finally, with all of that body of work, they saw Evan Naka, director, and this is the crew, this is the work, great. He's a director.

1:21:48Let's hire him as the director. Let's hire him as the photographer based on the body of work. So it is not an overnight thing. It's also put your, don't surround yourself, especially when you're first starting out. When you're more established, it's a bit different. But when you're first starting out, take on all the opportunities you can, and then also start building yourself into whatever role you want to. If you're only taking PA jobs, you are going to stay a PA. If you're only taking second AC jobs, you will stay a second AC. Start doing the other jobs and start challenging yourself to get to that next level with those other people, and they'll start seeing you in the light you want to be seen in.

1:22:27I think that's such a great point, because when we had Brady Bissett on, he said the same thing. He was like, oh, I was gaffing everyone's shit. So then everyone's hit me up to gaff. And he's like, I want to be a DP. Well, I had to like, I had to go find these clients myself or like go outside to get DP roles. And now I'm a DP. I'm not a DP. Everyone else is calling me for gaffing jobs. He keeps taking me, keeps posting about the gaffing jobs. Yeah, he was also like, I was networking with all DPs. Yeah, he's like, all my boys are DPs. He's like, who isn't going to hire me? I mean, solid point.

1:22:58if you're surrounding yourself with the position you want to be in sounds like a smart thing but it's like they're not going to hire you because they are themselves what you want to be you need to be buddies with directors and producers exactly this has been such an epic conversation I can't wait to see in four years where the next pod with Evan Tanaka goes in Naka Studios ladies and gentlemen this has been episode 208 of the 505 podcast if you're still here please hit the subscribe button drop us a comment leave us a like and we'll see you guys all next week peace