The Rise of the Exponential Organization

24:51Yeah, especially in a world of massive amount of data and your crowd, your community can be feeding you all of this data, right? And we'll talk about experimentation later, but you know, AI and algorithms are the means by which you manage that crowd and community gather the data, make sense of the data. The fourth one is the L, which is leveraged assets. This is Airbnb leveraging other people's bedrooms, ways piggybacking on other people's GPS devices, Bitcoin leveraging other people's compute power to do the nodes. Apple tapping into Foxconn as a manufacturing partner not owning the manufacturing capability itself, but outsourcing it.

25:28Essentially leveraging assets that you don't own. Cloud computing was probably the most relevant here. and how we considered the birth of an EXO when Amazon Web Services launched. Because now you can take computing off the balance sheet and make it a truly variable cost. And so now everything becomes scalable, which becomes really powerful. So that's the L. And the final one is engagement. And this is where Peter talked about in center prizes for X Prize, gamification in the community, all the digital marketing and digital connection you have with your user base. And now with crypto economics and token economics, all of these NST projects are basically EXOs.

26:04They have a big purpose. They create cryptoeconomics and they reach multi -billion dollar ecosystems incredibly fast just by incentivizing them in the right ways. We're entering a massive attention economy, right? The more and more information we're generating on the planet, the more and more we need to be able to get people's attention. Gary Vaynerchuk is running his V -Con conference right now and the best description I've heard about him as you day trades attention. You're like, it's just amazing. The people can navigate that world. So those are externalities that most of these EXOs use one or more of.

26:40That allows people to keep a very small resource footprint and very quickly scale outwards. And then we identify five internal mechanisms that map to the acronym IDEAS. The first of those is interfaces, apples interface to its app store developers or Uber to its drivers. It's actually a form of IP allowing you to automate the interaction to Google's ad sense, whether you're a demand side or supply side. You could automate both sides. You can scale very very fast. All platform business to basically fat protocols in the web three worlds are essentially interfaces. APIs is the classic example. Yeah, APIs would say, how do you allow individuals to build businesses on top of you in a way that utilize your services without humans in the loop?

27:22I mean, Let's get those pesky carbon life forms out of the way so to speak. Well, I was just gonna say it may sound silly to some folks, but you can imagine the human equivalent, right? So for Uber, it was literally calling up someone who then would dispatch a taxi, right? Or you know, even Google Maps way back in the day like before we had digital maps, you might even call someone or look up, you know, a physical map and say, hey, how do I get here? The staff, one of my favorite examples is I'm a pilot and I fly a few different airplanes that Dear friend, my Richard Kane built a company called Verajet and uses the VisionJet.

27:55And the traditional aircraft chartering business is literally whiteboards and sticky notes where I'm taking this pilot and this airplane here and the fuel is here. And it's like pathetic. So Richard is a brilliant computer scientist, built a platform on Verajet where everything is optimized. He'll go to quantum compute later for doing it even faster. but where the airplanes, the pilots, where the person is being picked up and dropped off, all of it is fully digitized. And he used the vision jet, the SF50, because it is massively connected when the airplane lands. It sends all of its data of its systems check back to the AI.

28:37So you get humans completely out of the loop. That's beautiful. It's efficiency, it's safety, and it's speed. and God help us, the whiteboards and Post -it notes should be automated. Oh my God. That's a trap. That's the TV right there. There you go, Daster. So the first one is interfaces. And we actually think it's one of the most under -recognized aspects of business in the world today. We think books will be written on the richness of what's needed there. The second is dashboards. And there are two types of dashboard. This is the external metrics that you've tracked your business on in real time.

29:10And then internally the use of OKRs to manage team and performance. We worked out that only three and a half percent of big companies around the world use up hairs So this is a long way to go to do better team and performance management going forward and try using dashboards to track everything becomes absolutely critical If you're an EXO and if something's going right or something's going wrong, you want to know very fast Right, and so having real -time feedback in fact what we're finding does the whole section we have in the book called depth to the five -year plan because for big companies, by the time they finish their five -year plan the seven day, and what we're finding is big companies now are operating on an MTP and a one -year operating plan with a dashboard and using that to steer the company.

29:53Next is experimentation. And for me, this is one of the most critical and important. And entrepreneurs who are building any kind of companies today, especially if they're part of the Andreessen Harowitz community, know this, right? You're beginning from the beginning as an experimental based company. It It used to be the tyranny of confidence, right, that you'd have an expert and someone who you would hire a consultant to tell you what it should look like with the marketing and so on. And today, you know, I don't care about human opinion, right? Show me the data, right? Run the experiments, iterate on everything from taglines to colors to font sizes to whatever experiments and build from the beginning.

30:31We talked about this. Jeff Holden was a friend of mine. and he was the chief product officer at Uber and at Amazon and talked about this experimentation engine that they built called Morpheus back then, teaching your team how to run experiments. And if you're starting a company now, you need to begin from the inception as an experimentally minded organization. When someone raises an idea, it needs to be okay. Here's the experiments we're gonna run, not this is what we're doing. The problem is large corporations. are terrible at this. They have a hard time navigating it. Yeah, if you run an experiment and your failure occurs over, right?

31:09So there's every distance incentive to do that. And we think of experimentation as having kind of two pieces. One is like the lean startup constantly testing assumptions and running them. And also inculcating a culture of taking risk. So that the organization is constantly learning. We saw, for example, an Amazon that every team is measured on how many experiments they ran this quarter, how many succeeded, how many failed. If you're not running enough experiments and not enough or failing, your bonus gets dain't, right? So they're constantly learning on a non -stop basis what pricing models, what customer return policies, or work or don't work, et cetera.

31:44And that's always gonna keep them ahead of the game. Like you both said, it's a cultural thing. It is also an operational idea, but I think most people listening have probably been in different companies, some which have an experimental nature to them, where to your point, it's like, We are open to other ideas and in fact we want to be wrong. We want you to bring a new idea that proves our assumptions incorrect. Peter tells us, Terry Master of Teller at X, where he goes, show me the assumptions you've made, and pick the ones that you think will have the product fail unless do those first. Then it's learn whether it works or not and then cascade down the list.

32:22I think it's just a great way of thinking on a non -stop basis. That's experimentation. Then we have A, which is autonomy. me. And this means decentralized org structures, decentralized decision making, leading all the way to DOWs, right? Eventually where you programmatically have everything completely decentralized, because you in a highly flexible volatile world, you not want as much decision making done at the edges as possible and empower the individuals and employees like Valve Software and Seattle that has no CEO reporting lines, job descriptions management meetings of any kind. They're like a be high.

32:57And so more and more companies we think will be taking on this attribute. This is again, very hard to implement in legacy organizations. I'm possible. I mean, talk about like, okay, you don't report to anybody more. Here's your budget. Elitonomy requires having a really clear, massive transformative purpose in an organization. So everybody knows why they exist and why they're doing something and requires having dashboards. If you've got an MTP as your North Star and you've a dashboard measuring how you're moving in that direction and you trust your employees and they're brilliant and they care about this, let them go and let them do their work.

33:33Really hard to do an orange organization. You guys are both speaking my language. I've worked remotely for almost a decade now and I completely believe in this idea, but you're also noticing right now through this downturn, many companies are laying a lot of people off, they're kind of removing that manager layer. And so just any thoughts in this particular point in time as we speak to this idea of autonomy, setting organizations up for success. If you have proper dashboards and you have motivated people that believe in a big purpose like an MTP, you essentially can just let them do their thing.

34:07I'll give you the most extreme example we ever came across with this is a Chinese company called Higher. They're a applying spending factor and they make 55 million fridges in ovens a year. There were 80 ,000 people in a classic pyramid structure, a command and control top down, etc. CEO one day wakes up and goes, can't make my corporate goals using this structure blows it up turns 80 ,000 people into 2000 teams of about 40 people each. Okay. Each team has a P &L target, each team elects their own leader and each team decides to do whatever they want to do. Right. And you're like, wait, how do you make 50 years?

34:40So you got to any business school in the world and say, I want to make, I want to set up a structure to make 55 million fridges. And they'll design for you incredibly centralized, you know, supply chain product definition, demand forecasting, all centralized, right? And here this guy is doing it on a decentralized basis. And the quality suffered for the first couple of years while they got there together. But once they got the machine working, GE actually gave up and sold GE appliances to them because it couldn't compete. Like when they wanted to decide what features should go into the new fridge, the team's vote.

35:12And because you have two thousand team interfacing with vendors and customers as a suppliers, they do a much better job, and get a much better result than some product strategy team hunkered away with market forecast and market research. Yeah, with four layers of managers. And so we're seeing the power of this to an incredible degree. It does a Canadian bank called Tangerine Bank, which used to be ING direct, which actually operates like this. So in a regulated bank, there's no CEO reporting lines, his job descriptions, et cetera. And you kind of go, wait, how is this working? When they do an online promotion, everybody goes to the phone banks.

35:44And when it's ready to turn reporting time, the chief risk officer goes, hey, I need help and everybody floods to help him. And everybody has a ton of fun. They naturally find a way they fit the best in the organization. And they have more of a say, and they feel more control, they feel more ownership. You know, during this time of a rapid change and including downsizing, including competition coming out of no place. That's what your competition has no longer the company you thought it was. It was a startup coming in from this crazy idea that's now a breakthrough. And so that agility is key. I think going back to your question around the downturn, if you're going to reduce your headcount and flatten your organization, you need these tools.

36:23You need the dashboard. You need to give autonomy to your group and you need to fully incentivize them with clear objectives that are tied back to your MTP. And sometimes you're going to see just massively increased performance. But it is the CEO and the board of directors. If they're doing something different, that's unlike what they've done for the last 10, 20 years, especially if they're a public company. They need their board of directors to give them top cover. It really is throughout the organization, it's a choice to transform. Now you've had companies and incredible leaders like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk or Larry Page who from the beginning had this vision.

37:01and Jeff Bezos has classical shareholders' letters in the early days saying, listen, I don't care about profitability, I'm talking about scale. And if you don't like that, don't invest in us. I mean, the cajones to go in that, but that's what it took and he was right. Yeah, if you build the right MTP, the right goals, the right dashboards, that's effectively what a manager does, right? When you think about like they're checking to make sure that you're working on the right things that you are experimenting towards those goals and then you're meeting them. And again, that's represented through the dashboard.

37:35We find that the culture of trust gets built in as an intrinsic outcome of building an EXO. So that's autonomy in the final attribute, which is S in ideas, is social technologies. So these are all the peer -to -peer, cloud -bird -of -technologies like Asana, Slack, Zoom, Yammer, Chatter. We have really good evidence today that peer -to -peer collaboration and communication is much more valuable than traditional top -down your manager, telling you what to do and how to do it. And so the more you can enable that with technology, the better. If this is of interest to you, if you're an entrepreneur at the beginning of your journey, building your company, or if you're a large corporation trying to figure out how do you make sense of this, our new book is coming out.

38:16And it's basically going to be available for free. It's called Exponential Organizations 2 .0. We're going to be doing a three hour workshop on June the 6th and it's a free workshop. Suleimanye are going to be basically showing you how to build and create your MTP and your moonshot. Talk about each of these 10 attributes of the interactive. We'll be answering your questions. If you go to dmandis .com my lastname .com slash EXO, you can register. And there's another part we built in, a genera AI overlay. Yeah, because we have to eat our dog food. So over the last three months we've been building an AI chatbot to interface with the book.

38:53So you can literally go to this chatbot and type in, here's what I do with my company, how do I turn it into an EXO? Or how do I apply dashboards? Because this is what I got right now. And it literally researches the entire purpose of the book and all the interviews we've done and all the tapes of recordings we have. So this is now a living book. We're going to load up into it 700 case studies that we have of EXOs. I think the AI is so important because we've talked about how the world is changing. And the idea of a book itself is changing. How you can interface with it, how you can have it customized to your specific questions related to your specific organization.

39:30And any business book today is pretty much out of date by the time you read it. That's so true. Oh my God, it's so difficult to write a book that. It's like the difference between a traditional car and a Tesla for you, how to hunt a Civic. It was an engineer 10 years ago, designed seven years ago, built two, three years ago, and by the time you get it, the design and the technology is 10 years out of date. Right, where's the Tesla is up to date on the spot because they're constantly updating the software and we think the future of books is going to be like this. A book that took a few years to write, etc., will be added data if it's not being constantly updated and refreshed.

40:02I want to give you some data that we just came across, staff, about the validity of this place. When we first came up with a model in 2013, 2014, we did initial test. What we did was we went and ranked the Fortune 100 by this model. We looked at every one of the Fortune 100 IBM Hula Packard Walmart, and said, okay, to what extent, one before the purpose driven, or what extent are the using lead startup thinking, to what extent is their decision making decentralized, et cetera, et cetera. We came up with an index. I did a segment on CNBC SquawkBox, we presented the index. Here are the Fortune 100, basically ranked by the flexible will be agility, purpose driven nature of the org structure.

40:42So that was 2015. A few months ago, we did a seven year trail analysis. How did these companies do over seven years? And what we did was we tracked over seven years, the top 10 that you continued to use they attributes the most, and the bottom 10, the least linear, the least flexible that used the attributes the least. And we said, all right, let's compare the top 10 and bottom 10 in our index, and how they did over seven years. Over a seven year period, the top 10 and debed in the bottom 10 by three acts on revenue growth. Six point four times on profitability, 10 .9 times on return on assets, but shareholder returns, compound annual growth rate, top 10 outperformed the bottom 10 by 40X, over 70, 40 times.

41:2540X. And you're like, I should have created an index fund. Like, oh, we completely went down a wrong business model. We looked at it and said, we've got to see if the R -square is the correlates here. and it absolutely does. So now we have a very, very clear data grounded thesis that if you're not architected in this way, you just won't deliver the returns going forward. I mean, it really represents that order of magnitude, just like your earlier story of saying, five employees versus 50 or 500 or 5 ,000. And what was really incredible was when the pandemic hit, the top 10 did five times better than the bottom 10 in responding to the pandemic, right?

42:04because as the external world gets more volatile, your ability to adapt is going to drive market value. And now we can measure that. It seems obvious in retrospect, but it's incredibly important. Now, the challenge is, again, the majority of our large corporations are built for building a wall garden. It is a scarcity mindset. We're going to own this asset and piece it out a little bit. One of the concepts we talk about that was in an earlier book I wrote called Bold, had to go big, great wealth, and impact the world, is the six Ds of exponentials. Your job as an entrepreneur is to digitize any element of your business that you can.

42:45Seems obvious, but when you digitize something in the beginning, the growth of that is slow and deceptive. So digitization is the first D. Deceptive growth is a second. When we double something, 10 times, it's a thousand times better, or double it 20 times, it's a million times, double it 30 times, it's a billion times, and it becomes disruptive. And it dematerializes, demonetizes, and democratizes. The classic example is Kodak, right? So Kodak in 1996, the top of its game, the $28 billion market cap, 140 ,000 employees, what people don't realize is that 20 years earlier, Kodak had invented the digital camera in their labs.

43:26Guy named Stephen Cesson had invented it. and he brings a digital camera into the board of Kodak and goes, here it is, the future of Kodak, it takes .01 megapixel images in black and white on a tape drive. And of course Kodak laughs and says, no, no, no, we're in the paper and chemicals business, right? That was their profit area. And this is a challenge because companies forget, larger companies forget their purpose versus his their profit centers, right? George Eastman, the founder of Kodak, didn't build Kodak to be in the paper and chemicals business. He wanted to preserve memories. That was what he did.

44:03That was his mission. And rather than hopping on the digital camera, they didn't. And 20 years later, they were bankrupt by the technology they had invented. In the same year, they go bankrupt, going back to our friends at Instagram, right? Instagram gets acquired for a billion dollars by Facebook with 13 employees. And then now it's worth $100 billion on Meta's balance sheet. And so it's this notion that as an entrepreneur, you need to digitize, dematerialize, right? The cameras have gone away. They're now an app on your phone. That allows you the marginal cost of replication of that app is zero.

44:41So it's dem monetized and it can go everywhere. So it's democratized. And this is over and over again. and you're not working to dematerialize demonetize and democratize your products and services, someone else will and they'll put you out of business. Well, let me ask a question on that. I feel like a lot of companies, if they're listening, are probably like, yeah, okay, I should probably get some shared assets. I should probably get rid of some W2 employees and have more flexibility in my workforce. I should probably automate a dashboard. I should probably build a platform so that I don't have humans in the loop instead, the algorithms are running things.

45:16And so some people are like music to my ears. Other people are probably like, but what about my employees? What about the humans that, you know, I've employed for years, if not decades? And so I guess my question is, is this just the reality that we're in or how would you think about maybe some of that push back as people think about the transition to an exponential organization? So it's a combination of both of those. It's the reality that we're in. And it's like if you were in the 90s and you didn't adopt cloud computing, right? You're not going to last very long. You have to take on the world is changing.

45:52So that's just a reality. If you're not building generative in your products and services going forward, you're not going to last. So this is a fundamental reality of adapting to the new world. The second part is how do you then transform the legacy organization into something different new, and we've not worked with dozens of big companies from Procter and Gamble to Unilever, or TB Ameritrade, the Black and Decker, etc. And we found there's a threefold path. Step one is run a 10 week, what we call an EXO sprint, which hacks the immune system and hacks culture at scale. The default answer in a big company if you try and do anything disruptive is no.

46:29And so I had you switch that to it, yes. Step two is do not do disruptive things in the coordination, because you will have this immune system response. was their geared and architected for efficiency and for predictability. Just keep looking, Duda. Take the crazy people in your company, the edge and let them build in the exo off the edge. So Google X does this, et cetera. The master of this technique, by the way, is Apple. And yes, Apple has a great technology supply chain. And yes, they have a great design capability. I will argue that Apple's real edges are organizational. Because what they will do is they will form a small team that's really disruptive.

47:03They will put that team at the edge of the company. They'll keep them secret and stealth and they'll save them go disrupt another industry. Whether it's payments or watches or retail or whatever. So they have a portfolio of teams looking at different industries when they think something is ready for destruction They go into it and fold it into the broader ecosystem. There's no limit to their market cap And we think as we move forward more and more companies will have to adopt this type of a model Because doing disruptive things at the edge gives you the upside and then you fold it into an ecosystem and a platform play And we're starting to see that happening.

47:37And we think most big companies won't make it, but there are companies learning, look at the recent Chachi PT thing. Google was basically the foundation of LLMs, right? They were too nervous and careful and risk averse to launching, and so they got careful. Microsoft went, let's just go for it. And they did it and boom. And so you can't afford to sit back on your laurels today and less so if you're a big company. So let's talk about the humanitarian side of this, right? because people are saying, hold it, hold it. You're talking about having my company disrupting and reducing number of jobs and, you know, what about my family or have to feed and such.

48:15First of all, the reality is this is going to be happening. And what you really need to do is make sure that a company is going to be able to survive and thrive during these times. It's not like if you choose to be, we're going to employ everybody and not change organization. That organization, you're going to lose your job anyway, because the organization is going to be bankrupt soon enough. Now, we have another tsunami coming. I track these 20 metatrans of what's happening. AI is one of them, but humanoid robotics is another, right? We have at least a dozen humanoid robot companies that are in development.

48:48You know, people might know about Optimus, that Tesla or figure, but they are coming and they're going to become a massive workforce. And so there's going to be a transformation in culture and employment. and we have to be ready to deal with this. I want to touch on this, because I go crazy when I hear this. When we look in the past, when we've had disruptive technological innovation coming in completely clean up, we found that we don't lose jobs. What we do is we increase capacity. I'll give you a very clear example, which is in the 70s, we created bank ATM machines, and you could automate banking to a large degree.

49:23And there was lots of hand -wringing going on, oh my god, what will we do with millions of bank tellers, they'll all be out of work, et cetera, et cetera. What actually happened was the cost of running a branch dropped by 10 times and the banks when we created 10 town -grown branches and the number of bank tellers has not changed at all since the 70s. Same thing with truck drivers when we automate trucking we'll just be doing a ton more trucking because we just don't have drivers right now. And so what we found is when you automate for the most part you increase capacity the most roboticized countries in the world that have the highest penetration of robotics or South Korea, Sweden, Germany, which have the lowest unemployment.

49:59And so it's very clear from the data, but our minds go straight to, oh my god, we'll lose all the jobs, right? And we've never seen it happen. But this is where Peter talks about scarcity versus abundance. I was just going to say the idea that these jobs, these specific jobs, potentially being automated as more productivity to the system, which then allows more to be created. Exactly. I run a program every year called the Bunnings 360 and I coach 360 CEOs and entrepreneurs throughout the year through this. And this year we took a look at UBI, right? And so we probably will have some version of universal basic income coming down as more robots and AI come online.

50:38It will be jobs disrupted, but what we're gonna enable is for people to level up what they do. A lot of people who have jobs didn't dream without waiting tables or cleaning bathrooms when they were kid, right? what did they dream about? And you're going to all have an AI co -pilot that helps you learn and do and actually pursue your dreams and will probably end up splitting work for income and work for purpose in the future. Not the subject of the book, but something that from a societal standpoint we need to be thinking about. But companies have an obligation to fulfill their massive to transform it to purpose and to do it in the most efficient way possible in all of this uplift's humanity.

51:21And that's the ultimate game here. Yeah, and it is just the reality. It is the market dynamic that exists that if you don't innovate, someone will out -innovate you. And just because we've been touching on AI, I'd love to just hear from both of you interesting ways that you've seen companies start to integrate this new technology because it is so ground -shaking and it impacts just about everyone. But at the same time, a lot of people are familiar with chat GPT and using that on an individual basis. So how have you seen this really be deployed effectively within exponential organizations? So I think what we're going to see for an EXO, there's a very clear place.

52:02You basically say to a generative AI and chat GPT equivalent stability diffusion, whichever, you say here's my MTP, here's what I'm currently doing. what experiments should I be running? Right? And we think the AI will then come back with, here's the 55 things you should be considering, et cetera, et cetera. And that performs a great tick list to go off and think about that. I think that's one. There's a clear, huge area in education and training. Right? Go learn this job, go learn this function, go learn how to program, whatever. Because the best benefit is will place most of the lawyers. There's a lot of lawyers out there.

52:36Because you can just say generate me a contract that has these characteristics and it'll throw in the clauses and et cetera, et cetera, it'll go, wow. So I think that's for me the most exciting one. First of all, one of the things I advise and talk about a lot to a company is every company needs to have what I call a chief AI officer. And this is not someone in the organization who is writing code. It is someone who understands what's going on in the AI universe and is sitting next to the CEO as a strategic advisor to say, We need to be injecting it here, here, and here, and here, and partner with this organization, this organization.

53:13And the challenge is, and I talk about this openly, so there can be two kinds of companies at the end of this decade. Companies that are full utilizing AI and companies that are out of business. And these will be that black and white. And so if you are a large company CEO or an entrepreneur and you're not sure on how to be utilizing this, It's even more reason for you to go and hire someone who's going to sit next to you. It's like a call to the Strategic Officer, but it's your chief AI officer. And their job is to be injecting platforms, partnerships, capabilities at every level. I talk about at every board meeting, every management meeting, I want chat GPT open as another member of the team.

53:55It's like when I'm asking questions, I want people using it as a thought partner. We don't know how to think other than the way we know how to think. It's obvious, but when you bring in this other perspective that is bringing in the world's knowledge, you get orthogonal thinking. And again, that's where breakthrough has come from. If you limit yourself to your leadership team, you've got a very narrow window. The last four presentations I've done to big CPG boards in C -Sweets. I've said, how would I disrupt this company? and it gives me a list and then I show that on a slide and it looks on their faces, you know, and I go, that took two seconds to generate, right?

54:35How would I attack this company if I was a startup? And I think what's really powerful about today is when we were having this conversation when we first put this model test load nowhere, Uber and Erbeen we were just kind of getting started, et cetera, et cetera. Now we can point to 50 things and say you have to adapt. I mean, my favorite thing about interfacing with these AIs is exactly what you said about it kind of extending your own ideas. And I had an experience yesterday where I was thinking through a tweet, actually, and I was just thinking, you know, cities are designed around cars and offices are designed around meetings and just, you know, how our current society has been designed around things of the past that are changing.

55:14And I asked Chatchy B .T. I said, hey, can you come up with a few more of these? I just wanted to see what it came up with. But the fascinating thing was not only did it come up with a bunch of them, it had this altruistic view where my original ones were a little more negative, right? Like, oh, you know, we need to rethink cities so they're not designed around cars and they were beautiful. They were like parks are designed around families and I was like, oh, I never really thought about that. It was so surprising. And then I said, hey, Chad, GPT, thank you so much for this. But like, these are really altruistic and could you give me a few that I think are maybe more grounded in reality.

55:49And it also spat out like the exact same 10 things, but with a totally different viewpoint. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so clever. And I guess to that end, I agree with you that having someone within the organization who was solely focused on this is so important. And we're seeing that across other dimensions as you know, you mentioned Peter, maybe 20 metatrons that are happening. And I wonder, you know, We've seen a couple companies higher head of remote who are thinking about, you know, what staff on demand should I be bringing in? How do I incorporate a sink into my organization? Are there other roles that you both see emerging due to these exponential trends?

56:28One of the things I think about staff is ahead of mindset in an organization, which is a really weird and woo thing to talk about. But your mindset is the single most important thing on the entrepreneur any organization has. If I said to you what made Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, you know, Haunt McGonney, Martin Luther King, successful, was it their money, their technology, their network, or was it their mindset, I think everybody would argue it's their mindset. And if in fact your mindset is the most important thing that makes you successful as a leader or an organization, my next question is what mindset do you have?

57:03And I list off a number of mindsets that I think an EXO needs to have, on the East Epic curiosity mindset and needs to have an abundance mindset, exponential mindset, a moonshot mindset, a gratitude mindset, an up -purpose driven mindset, most importantly. And these are mindsets that drive behavior. And here's the thing, the world is speeding up. And as a result of that, the way you react to problems and opportunities is a instantaneous reaction to it, right? It's instinct in this regard. And that instantaneous reaction is shaped by your mindset. And so if you have a dystopian negative mindset and you see a problem, it puts you back on your heels and you're cowering and you're in fear and scarcity mindset.

57:51If you've got a abundance mindset and you see a problem, it's like, oh my god, what's the opportunity coming out of this? How do we navigate this? How do we bring in new capabilities? And so I haven't really thought about this before, but a chief mindset officer that's really training your employees and your organization. And how do we train ourselves, same way an AI does? You know, neural net is trained by showing it example after example after example. And I train my own neural net, my own brain, by not watching the crisis network, seeing that and getting, you know, distopian news all the time.

58:24It's by the books I read. I built an AI called Futurisco that search of the world's information and brings me the that's within my parameters of positive, abundance -minded, exponential in all of these industries. So the news is out there. It's just filtered by editors who want clickbait for their advertisers or filtered by what actually serves me. There's a company in Australia that I came across. They read the book a few years ago, and they have every quarter 10 projects running on the 10 attributes, a staff on demand autonomy. and every quarterly just reu projects and everybody has to pick something they're going to drive the initio picked all drive dashboards this quarter and figure out how to implement dash wards into some new domain and they just keep doing that.

59:13If an organization is at a place where it's assessing these different attributes, the 10 attributes. Is there a framework or a way of thinking in terms of where to start? Because I assume even not just large companies, but some startups would look at those 10 and say, oh man, there's like eight of these that we are not doing well or we are not tackling. We actually have a diagnostic survey where you can score yourself and see where my week is strong. Once you kind of have the as is you can kind of go, okay, how strong do we need to be an AI or an autonomy or in community and crack? Like for example, most big companies in the world don't leverage community, right?

59:49They build the products and then they try and push it into the marketplace. Then you have Xiaomi and China, the second biggest phone company, and they're successful That's why because they have a thousand super users that vote on what features should go into the new phone. And they get the phone early and can boast to people, look, I voted. And the older water mouth product development is taken care of. And they have no marketing or promotional costs at all. That allows them to keep the cost low just by leveraging community. So once you know this is the baseline and the diagnostic is also free to take us how we score the Fortune 100, you can then say where do we want to be and then start feeling in the gaps and building that capability.

1:00:25I was going to say every attribute you add losing that direction and it's important to realize you don't need to do everything at once but you need to have clarity on where you're strong and what to add next. And it's easiest by the way when you're doing this at the beginning when you're a guy and a gal and you've got your MTP. And one of the places I've seen people fail is when they start with a massive transformative to purpose and then they bend to the marketplace and deviate from it and follow path of least resistance. And you end up with something that, yeah, maybe you've got some revenue in markets, but it isn't inspirational anymore.

1:01:02And it's going to die slow and painful death. Kilti is charged. We've done it a few times. Yeah, we've all done it. Yes, we've all done it. I mean, Codex, a great example where you said they literally got lost. They hadn't MTP, but based on their killer product for a period of time, they got lost. right? They got lost in what their MTP was. Look at Blackberry as well. Blackberry got to the biggest phone company in the world. They didn't have an MTP to sustain what they were going to do next. Right? And then eventually they just imploded. Also a great example of building a platform that other people can build on top of, right?

1:01:38That's one of the ways that Apple has succeeded. And I had a Blackberry back in the day. I remember they had maybe like one or two games on the phone and anything that went on a Blackberry had to be built by Blackberry. So it wasn't scalable, it wasn't exponential. Biggest problem, right? You really want to create your APIs, your interface that allows the world to build business on top of you, the most successful companies in the world. And if you have something that's extraordinary, open -source it to share the cost of the operations, is what Amazon did with their cloud services, which was so brilliant.

1:02:10And I want to hit again, you know, Google had Google videos. And I remember meeting Chad Hurley after Google just bought them and it was like why did they buy you? They had Google videos and it was like well, you know Google videos had a whole bunch of lawyers approving what you'd go on what could be done and YouTube just had none of that and it just took off and so you know it gets bought for $1 .65 billion $1 .18 months after startup and this agility of a small nimble mammal compared to the large lumbering dinosaurs is going to only be amplified in the world ahead and you'll have companies like Disney that have an engine and then they'll buy Lucas and Marvel and put those creative products through their engine that goes out to movies and theme parks and so forth the large companies.

1:02:59You know what we're finding also is that this EXO model is extending away past just companies into government departments non -profits that's impact projects, et cetera. I came across the Minister of Oceans and Mauritius. He was like, oh, I'm really happy to meet him. I met him at an express dinner that Peter put together and he goes, I run my whole ministry based on your book. I'm like, wait, what? He goes, yeah, we have a massive ocean area that we can't possibly cover effectively using hostile thinking. So we built old community and all the fishermen and tell us what's going on. We gather all the data, we have dashboards.

1:03:30And I'm like, wow, this is like, that's amazing. Let me just say again, please, if this is of interest to you, If you're a large corporation that wants to understand how do you implement this and hopefully slow or prevent a disruption or you're a startup at any stage. This is a three hour workshop to access this. It's deamandis .com, backslash .exe. So, I mean, we're bubbling with excitement to share what we've been working on here and get it out to the world. Yeah, and I think it's worth mentioning again, you guys wrote this book originally in 2014, right? And maybe we could just close out with one question.

1:04:03And I mean, we've talked a lot about finding a big moonshot, a big purpose that others can buy into. Given that both of you have been in technology for so long, are there any large grand challenges that you'd just love to be solved or have founders, you know, take a stab at? What's kind of catching your eye in terms of potential MTPs? So I do this for a living with exprises, right? Right. Exactly. All we do is launch exprises. We just launched an exprise for wildfires. You can monitor 1 ,000 square kilometers, detect the wildfire, add ignition, and put it out 10 minutes automatically. Right? We're getting ready to do an ex -price.

1:04:39My biggest area right now is reinventing disrupting healthcare, a health span ex -price, reverse your biological age or your functional age by 20 years. Those are areas I care about. Selim. I think there's two or three big areas. One is education, which desperately needs massive transformation. Yes, for sure. But it turns out our institutions have their own immune system, right? God help you if you're trying to disrupt academia journalism, etc. We have institutional immune systems as well that need to be disrupted. I think the biggest and most important one is that in our general institutions, we don't have a feedback loop and there's no mechanism to update the UN or the healthcare system or the legal system or the education system.

1:05:20And we need to build those. And I know many of your companies attack those areas, but we need to figure out a way jumping past all of that and going to a completely new model that's actually working for people. I think this is where AI can really help. So for example, we've been chatting with EMAT Vostak with Stability AI and Stability Division. We're like, why can we just use an AI to load up all the data in a country and give every child a tutor, a doctor, a lawyer, and in the system? And a link for each one. And just letting go of that. You'll just instantly transform that country. I think that's the kind of thing that we're really excited about seeing tons of.

1:05:54And by the way, you might as work in on that right now, right? He's looking to provide every child in the nation of allowable to do a countrywide experiment. Amazing. And imagine the data you get from that. Yeah. I mean, it's just fundamentally different.

1:06:11If you like this episode and you'd like to learn more about exponential organizations, check out our workshop on June 6th. You can learn more at dmandis .com slash exo or check out the link in our show notes.