In short
Lee Sung Jin and David Chase discuss A24’s podcast episode themes: backlash and online criticism, writing as “channeling” vs age, spirituality and afterlife (Bardo, Christianity, Buddhism), and how Sopranos-like storytelling informs their current work. They also get into practical craft: score strategy (wall-to-wall synth/percussion, John Carpenter temping), needle-drop endings, and VFX perfectionism (a recurring freeze-frame issue). They connect these choices to tone, fate, and “something bigger” pushing characters together.
Guests (hosts)
David Chase (creator of The Sopranos; discusses venting, collaboration, and needle drops) and Lee Sung Jin (creator/writer; discusses casting Asian actors, writing process, and MKUltra/LSD projects).
Key claims
online critics “seek trouble” and misunderstand collaboration; inner self-talk may be learned early; writing becomes less “muse” with age; needle drops should invite interpretation; Carpenter-synth music creates looming dread; Buddhism frames death as training across lifetimes.
Notable examples
Sopranos episodes “Pine Barrens” and “Columbus Day”; “Don’t Stop Believin’” needle drop; Parasite/Minari actors; MKUltra/LSD movie and HBO series; John Carpenter temp; “The guy’s a Czechoslovakian…” joke; “Western therapy doesn’t work on Eastern minds.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOCultural Connections: Koreans and Italians
0:05 to 0:20
Discussion about similarities between Korean and Italian cultures as peninsulas.
“We talked about this with Steve and Young last season.”
Fixing Olivia's Head Scene
0:20 to 1:11
They discuss the backlash against a visual effects issue and the reactions to fixing it.
“Should we save some of this for the pod?”
Navigating Public Criticism
1:11 to 2:10
Exploring the challenges of facing public criticism and personal responses to it.
“The hardest thing for me was between seasons, everyone was like, oh, he's abandoning Asians.”
The Psychology Behind Self-Talk
2:10 to 3:05
Discussion on how childhood influences affect adult self-talk and its implications.
“I'm self-important, blah, blah, blah, blah.”
Revisiting Controversial Episodes
3:05 to 4:06
They reflect on a past episode and its relevance to current societal issues.
“I feel like the Columbus Day episode too is something that's so funny to me because I feel like back then there was such an uproar, right?”
The Writing Process: Collaboration vs. Solitude
4:06 to 5:32
Lee and David discuss their writing processes and how they approach collaboration.
“Well, I had a friend when my daughter was a little kid, and we made friends with another couple who had an elderly child.”
Aging and Writing: A Personal Reflection
5:32 to 8:01
Reflection on how aging impacts writing and creative inspiration.
“You know, my brain doesn't function the same way.”
Death and Perception: The DMT Theory
8:01 to 9:05
Exploring theories about death, consciousness, and potential experiences after life.
“So imagine like the most amount of shrooms your brain is just like pumping into you.”
Bardo: Transitioning Between Lives
9:05 to 10:59
Discussion of the concept of the bardo and its implications for the afterlife.
“The bardo is a stage between incarnations where you're waiting around until it's decided, are you gonna come back as a cockroach?”
Spirituality in Sopranos: Christianity and Buddhism
10:59 to 14:00
Examining the spiritual themes in Sopranos and their connection to personal beliefs.
“An ex-cop, and the other was going to be a Dylanologist.”
Show all 28 chapters
Exploring Spirituality in Creativity
14:00 to 15:00
The conversation dives into the intersection of spirituality and creativity, discussing the experiences of channeling inspiration.
“And then you sort of gaslight yourself into thinking like, well, maybe that was real.”
The Essence of Writing and Channeling
15:01 to 18:00
The hosts discuss the nature of writing, the feeling of channeling ideas, and the challenges of maintaining creative flow.
“And obviously towards the back half, especially the later seasons.”
Understanding Critics and Reddit
18:01 to 20:30
They share their thoughts on criticism, the impact of Reddit comments, and the struggle of handling negative feedback.
“Like almost the way people speak feels like I'm in a different reality, you know?”
Navigating Creative Conflicts
20:31 to 22:50
The discussion covers the dynamics of creative partnerships, healthy debates, and conflicts in the writing room.
“It's like truly the most humbling thing.”
The Humor in The Sopranos
22:51 to 25:50
The hosts reflect on the humor found in The Sopranos, discussing its evolution and how audiences perceive it over time.
“Like, people get like, people walk out of the room because they get uncomfortable because of how much he and I are debating.”
Balancing Humor and Reality in Writing
25:51 to 28:00
They discuss the balance of humor in writing realistic characters and scenarios within their shows.
“Were you, when people didn't get that it was funny, was that disappointing?”
Exploring Favorite and Least Favorite Jokes
28:00 to 29:04
The hosts discuss their reactions to specific jokes from 'The Sopranos' and personal preferences in comedy.
“I mean, Pine Barrens just blew me away at the Egyptian.”
Collaborative Writing Insights
29:04 to 30:24
A conversation on the dynamics of collaborative writing and the surprises it brings.
“and I didn't hear how stupid Pauly sounded.”
Choosing Music for Episodes
30:24 to 32:28
Discussion on the selection process of music and its impact on storytelling in episodes.
“there's definitely lines where I thought it wasn't gonna hit as hard like there's a line that people love that didn't come from me it was it was one of the writers There's Alice Jew, really smart, younger writer.”
The Role of Score in Narrative
32:28 to 35:20
Exploration of how the musical score enhances emotional depth and narrative tension.
“some people are just like staring at the scene in the edit and then just something comes to you inspired and then you try a song over it.”
The Use of Synths and Tone in Music
35:20 to 37:44
Insights into the decision-making behind the choice of musical elements and their influences.
“And even as we were doing the first three episodes, we kept telling Phineas, hey, this is feeling too serious or too funny.”
Defining Needle Drops in Television
37:44 to 40:01
Discussion on the innovative use of needle drops in storytelling and audience engagement.
“You put Carpenter under there with those scents, you just felt like this is a normal scene at a country club.”
Personal Journey and Music Aspirations
40:01 to 42:00
David Chase shares his personal history with music and its connection to his career in film.
“And I'm so curious what your process was like when you're – were you just kind of like – you know, obviously the biggest one that everyone talks about is Don't Stop Believin'.”
From Drummer to Filmmaker: A Personal Journey
42:00 to 44:36
Learn about the early influences and decisions that shaped a filmmaker's career.
“and four guys, and all of them were my friends, and I played the drums, but I wasn't picked.”
The Role of Music in Storytelling
44:36 to 46:40
Discover how personal musical preferences influenced show soundtracks.
“And I don't know 60s and 70s rock as well.”
Reflections on Past Work and Visual Effects
46:40 to 48:56
Explore the challenges and regrets associated with past projects and VFX.
“When you look back at the show, I mean, I have to give credit also to Martin Bruce Lee, who was our post-production supervisor, who picked a lot of the music.”
Current Projects and the Themes of MKUltra
48:56 to 51:10
Gain insight into upcoming projects exploring MKUltra's historical themes.
“I know you don't want to probably talk about two in depth, But I'm just so fascinated that you keep circling and coming back to MKUltra and that era and LSD.”
Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
51:10 to 52:07
Listen to concluding thoughts and reflections on the conversation.
“I usually watch it on my TV, but then I don't know if you find this.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00David Chase:Hi, I'm David Chase. And hi, I'm Lee Sung Jin, and this is the A24 podcast. We talked about this with Steve and Young last season. It was just why we put in the show that we think Koreans and Italians are alike, because we're both peninsulas.
0:18Lee Sung Jin:And there's a north and a south.
0:20David Chase:Should we save some of this for the pod?
0:22Lee Sung Jin:Well, you were talking about the Egyptian.
0:28Lee Sung Jin:the famous scene where Olivia's head doesn't work you know the vis effects people mocked that and complained about it for since forever and then when we said we were fixing it how dare they do that
0:48David Chase:how dare they monkey with something
0:50Lee Sung Jin:you can't win
0:52David Chase:It's the same people too, usually. I know. But I don't know why that, I feel like it does, I do seek it out. It is a chip on my shoulder. It never changes what I do, but it just makes me, I don't know, want to show them. The hardest thing for me was between seasons, everyone was like, oh, he's abandoning Asians. He's abandoning Asians. but I already knew that I had I had in my back pocket I had cast two of the greatest Asian actors of all time the dad from Parasite and the grandmother from Minari and I knew that there was going to be more Asian cast this season than even
1:36Lee Sung Jin:the first but then I just have to
1:38David Chase:bite my tongue you know so as to not give it away to not give it away and then also you know I keep people around me keep telling me to you know not engage don't answer them
1:50Lee Sung Jin:I know, and it's very hard.
1:52David Chase:Well, over the years, I feel like, especially during the Sopranos runs, I noticed in interviews you can't help but fire back a little bit. Yeah.
2:03Lee Sung Jin:It's not good. And they hate me. They hate me.
2:07David Chase:I don't know that anybody hates you.
2:09Lee Sung Jin:They do. They just hate me. You know, I'm a prick. I'm self-important, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you feel like saying, well, you guys antagonize me.
2:21David Chase:But see, the response to that would be, don't read it. Why do you think it is that we seek it out? I read something that they did this study with kids, or with adults rather. they discover that everyone's self-talk is actually exactly how their mother or father talked between like the ages of like four through seven or something like that you mean your inner dialogue yeah really yeah i was like oh wow that makes a lot of sense and i wonder if that is why we seek it out where we're like so that it has nothing to do with your conscious mind
2:58Lee Sung Jin:yeah you're just literally it's how you learn yeah it's not actually you yeah
3:05David Chase:I feel like the Columbus Day episode too is something that's so funny to me because I feel like back then there was such an uproar, right? But now I feel like it's more timely now, maybe more than back then.
3:20Lee Sung Jin:Well, strange you should say that because I want to watch it again. Yeah. Because I don't remember the ending. And boy, did they hate it. and I really felt like I was getting my guns off and I also thought I don't remember the message of it but it was like Tony delivers this sermon that you're you, you're not part of anything
3:46David Chase:I think that's what it was that could be a fun screening you know what, that's a good idea when you say that you wrote that with her I'm curious your writing process with other writers because you're so specific well
4:01Lee Sung Jin:actually now that i think you know it's a long time ago it's hard for me to remember some of this i think she got story credit oh i see okay i believe she didn't really write anything
4:11David Chase:yeah uh but she we discussed things that she like she got story credit so then usually there's someone like like her she she gets a story by there's some parts of the idea that that she came up with too yeah but then you go off and like as most of your writing done solo like you you have to go off into a room and just drown out everybody and then you come back with it. Well, I had a friend when my daughter was a little kid,
4:38Lee Sung Jin:and we made friends with another couple who had an elderly child. And she was a psychologist at UCLA, and she used this phrase, field dependent.
4:52Lee Sung Jin:And I realized that being a TV writer, it was kind of my job not to be field dependent that i'd not have to go into a little room by myself that the pages have to be done by tomorrow morning at 6 a.m and so if you're going to do it um what during an earthquake that's what you have to do um so that's i've always taken pride in that that i could write anywhere i'm not sure it's true yeah but do you like writing uh I don't know. Less and less, I think. Less and less because I'm getting older. I'm not as good at it. Oh, that's, I don't know. No, I'm serious. I'm not being humble. You know, my brain doesn't function the same way.
5:38Lee Sung Jin:It doesn't function as fast. I don't find words. And what I really don't find as much is the muse feeling. Like, you get finished with the page and you realize, holy shit, where did that come from? Wow. that's really good but i didn't do that that's that's another that's a higher power do you find
5:59David Chase:though i feel like i mean i know for me like as i get older uh the writings change like the way to write too and like almost like you feel like you have more to say i assume because you've lived more i think it's harder to get it out i may have more to say and the subject matter is different And, you know, there's a whole thing about aging, especially the age of 80, that everything changes, especially in Asian thought.
6:33Lee Sung Jin:Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. It's not about the approach of death. It's a chapter that's built in that's supposed to happen. It is about approaching death, but you've been in training for this period, and you have to have this period.
6:49David Chase:I think the Dalai Lama once said, like, his whole life is preparing for the death moment so that he can be able to enter it as unattached and, you know, free as possible. But that if he were to die suddenly in a plane crash or a car crash, that he's kind of screwed. Because it's just, you know, you're not ready. I have this theory that, you know, your brain keeps going for 10 minutes after your heart stops when you die. Does it? Yeah. And some people say that there's anecdotal evidence that when you die that your brain floods you with DMT, which is inherent in a lot of plants and animals. And so if that's true, then we can kind of surmise that the death experience is kind of like the craziest, most hallucinogenic trip you'll ever go on.
7:48David Chase:And so I almost think that death is just like our perception of those 10 minutes, which seems like eternity. Like if you do too many shrooms, then like it feels like an eternity. So imagine like the most amount of shrooms your brain is just like pumping into you. you think it lasts forever but probably to us it's just 10 minutes and whatever you're going through you're going to wrestle with for that 10 minute eternity and so so that's a whole other life that 10 minutes is a whole other i think so i think it's just you know this is so interesting to me especially since i'm getting there um and i find that like you know if you like when you have a bad trip on shrooms or a psychedelic, then if you feel guilty about something or if you hold a drudge with someone, that consumes that trip.
8:43David Chase:You're just almost trapped in a hell of your own making because you have all this baggage. And I find that if it is true that our brains keep going for those 10 minutes and we're probably going to be wrestling with all these things that that we haven't processed. In those 10 minutes. I think so.
9:01Lee Sung Jin:Is that, that's not the same thing as the bardo. As the which one? The bardo. What's the bardo? The bardo is a stage between incarnations where you're waiting around until it's decided, are you gonna come back as a cockroach? Or are you gonna come back as another, let's try sunny again? Let's see how that works out. So the bardo is like this waiting room. Oh, that's interesting. To be reincarnated.
9:30David Chase:I wonder if that is. I mean, I would like to think it is part of that, like, 10-minute eternity. And I think that's also why so many people have gravitated towards Christianity. Because to me, that's actually, like, the best marketing gimmick of, like, what better gimmick than when you enter that space and you're like, oh, my God, I'm not prepared to wrestle with all my demons. that if you're like, oh, if you genuinely believe that someone else took all this emotional baggage and sins and whatever and took it for you, if you just believe it in that moment as you're freaking out during that 10-minute eternity, then you're good.
10:09David Chase:So if I'm having that crazy trip as I die and I don't know how to wrestle with all my demons, if I can convince myself to actually believe that some guy just is going to take it all away but then i think buddhism is like no you're you're if you if you can't just hand it off to another guy you spend many many life cycles getting it right training trying to yeah to be really free of it and you can be demoted you can we come back as a cockroach oh for sure or a dog yeah i'm pretty sure i have multiple times
10:42Lee Sung Jin:you can be busted i mean i've tried to write a michael imperion only and i wrote a screenplay about two guys who die at the same instant. And they meet in Rome, but it's not Rome. It's the Bardo.
10:57David Chase:Oh, that's so cool.
10:59Lee Sung Jin:Yeah, it became too big. It was kind of a comedy, really. I'm sure.
11:05David Chase:One was an ex-cop.
11:07Lee Sung Jin:It was going to be Steve Sharippa. An ex-cop, and the other was going to be a Dylanologist. A guy who writes about Bob Dylan. and written some books about him. And they get stuck together in this story in Rome in the afterlife. I mean, that sounds amazing.
11:26David Chase:It sounds expensive. Did you introduce Michael to Buddhism or vice versa? No, Michael's a serious Buddhist. But not during Sopranos. No. But you were already, at least from what I could tell, grappling with Buddhist principles during surveillance? Well, that's a good question. I mean, it's really peculiar because,
11:59Lee Sung Jin:I mean, what I knew about Buddhism is like what most people know, and especially if you grew up in the 60s, you know. And so when I got the idea of doing this gangster story, a mafia story, I thought, but maybe he's a Buddhist. Now, why would I say that? I really don't know what that means. And I said, no, that doesn't make any sense. And so I forgot about it. But I'll be damned if that show didn't go that way 10 years later in some way. It wasn't intentional. It wasn't an attempt to make Tony a Buddhist. Thoughts about the afterlife and Buddhism crept in there. And I don't know why.
Read the full transcript
12:43David Chase:Yeah, I think a lot of my stuff ends up that way too, like the finale of season one and then this season's finale, which you haven't seen yet. But I think anytime you're grappling with time or meaning, it kind of all goes to the same questions over again.
13:02Lee Sung Jin:Now, you were raised Christian, right?
13:04David Chase:I was very involved. The Korean church is sort of the hub of the Korean community, even if you're not Christian.
13:13Lee Sung Jin:And like you just go there to hang out with other Koreans. Yeah. Yeah.
13:16David Chase:For some reason, like Koreans, that became our sort of place to commune. And yeah, I was like deeply involved with like, you know, I used to be up there, praise band, like playing the songs and stuff. And I think I told you about one church I went to in Texas where it was like a summer camp and they were like really out there. And would do the laying of the hands and the speaking of the tongues. and I'm like watching my friends like literally like collapse and faint and start like speaking in tongues and then they come to me and they put do this and I like faked it. You know? I just started babbling because you feel this pressure too, you know?
14:01David Chase:And then you sort of gaslight yourself into thinking like, well, maybe that was real. Maybe that was the Holy Spirit speaking through me. Maybe that's all it is.
14:10Lee Sung Jin:I mean, did you ever talk to your friends? Did you fake it? Did you fake it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did they say?
14:14David Chase:Well, some of them genuinely believed that they were overtaken by something else. And then some people were like, no, yeah, I faked it.
14:26Lee Sung Jin:But only, you know, there's only one entity that knows whether it was fake or not, right? Well, yes. And that's still you, I guess.
14:36David Chase:I find all this really fascinating. I think that's why Sopranos to me remains like just the thing that I keep coming back to. Because aside from like the incredible writing and acting and just the themes and the propulsion, everything like underneath it, there is an actual like deeper layer of spirituality that just kind of like it's just like simmering underneath. And obviously towards the back half, especially the later seasons.
15:04Lee Sung Jin:I agree with you. And I don't know where I'm saying I don't know where it came from.
15:07David Chase:Well, I think it came from clearly you thinking about those things.
15:12Lee Sung Jin:Okay. But I do believe in the muse. So it came from outside me. See, I believe, I sort of sometimes believe that we're just agents. You know, we're just trying to, we have the hands and the laptop.
15:31David Chase:That's true.
15:31Lee Sung Jin:But something else is happening.
15:34David Chase:Do you find that you can kind of tell when you are channeling something? Like you feel it after you've written it?
15:42Lee Sung Jin:Yeah. That's what I mean. I feel that less. I feel that less now than I used to. When do you think that started to subside? Because I feel like... Maybe when The Sopranos was over. Really? Maybe.
15:56David Chase:No. Maybe the last couple of years. Do you feel like that's something on your end or the universe's end? I don't know.
16:06Lee Sung Jin:I mean, I can say very, obviously, very easily, well, it's age. You know, your brain isn't the same. It's not as fast. It's not as. But I don't know the answer. Obviously, I knew the answer. I'd feel a lot more comforted. Yeah. What about you?
16:23David Chase:No, I definitely agree about the channeling thing. You know, just something like when it hits, you just feel it. Yeah.
16:33Lee Sung Jin:It's an amazing, then it's the best job in the world. It really is. And even to me, even looking, if you look back on it, or not back on it, but if you think about writing, okay, and you have this job, you're quote unquote running a show, and it's all that responsibility, and all the stupid questions, and all the good questions, but you're creating a universe. not a world, not a town, a universe. And it's like, oh. I don't mean there's feelings of power. I'm not talking about that, like I created the universe. You have your own universe to go to. And I don't know about you, but while I was doing that show, I found it hard to go to the movies.
17:26Lee Sung Jin:I can't watch anything while I do it. I would go to the movies and I'd go, I don't get this. This isn't right.
17:33David Chase:It feels like a foreign language a little bit. Yeah.
17:36Lee Sung Jin:Well, it's someone else's universe, not yours. And you think about you're in your universe all the time, even when you're not working. It's in your head. And so when you see something else, it's like, well, this is the mark.
17:52David Chase:Yeah. No, you're like. So you feel that too. I definitely, when I am in it and I turn on something else, it feels like it's very foreign. Like almost the way people speak feels like I'm in a different reality, you know? And I'm just so used to the way that everything's speaking in my head and in my world, you know? But I think that, you know, I think that's what's tough about when you're so locked into your show. that it does become all-consuming. And there's so much about this job that I truly hate. Yeah, but that other aspect of it is what keeps you going.
18:37Lee Sung Jin:That's the only thing. That's what keeps you going. And you say, you know what, I'm going to try something. I'm going to try. I'm going to try. I'm going to try. Because you're curious in a way.
18:47David Chase:Yeah. And so then once it hits, it's like golfers. It's like so much of golf just sucks and it's like the worst. But then you hit that one shot that feels clean.
19:00Lee Sung Jin:Yeah, I mean, I've always wondered about golf.
19:02David Chase:Like, what?
19:03Lee Sung Jin:What is it called? A walk, a good walk ruined or something like that?
19:07David Chase:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which is like the funniest way to describe golf.
19:10Lee Sung Jin:Yeah. I mean, and what we're saying, I'm sure it sounds arrogant. Oh, you created a universe and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the only place you're comfortable. It's not arrogance. It's just, you can call it a reflection if you want.
19:25David Chase:Well, I think you and I, we relate to each other because I think what we're feeling is so similar. It's really not an ego thing. It's not a self thing. It's actually, that channeling only happens if you dissolve your ego and dissolve, you kind of get out of the way. and so it's even it's not about me it's about whatever yeah this is I know which is and I think all those people on reddit who are bitching about you just don't understand that but then the people on reddit are also this yeah that's true yeah yeah I I I find that that's the only way I can like calm down from the reddit comments is like I have to remember that it's It's a mirror.
20:15David Chase:It's just.
20:15Lee Sung Jin:Yeah. Okay. I just wish. Well, I could say, what do I care? What do you care what they say? What do you care what they think? But I wish they understood this is what we're talking about. This is not arrogance. Yeah. It's the opposite.
20:33David Chase:It's like truly the most humbling thing.
20:36Lee Sung Jin:Yeah.
20:36David Chase:Yes. Do you still read Reddit comments?
20:41Lee Sung Jin:No. No, I don't. Not today. I don't know. Just cut that.
20:49David Chase:I find that.
20:51Lee Sung Jin:See, because that's all they want to hear.
20:52David Chase:That is. Oh, we got it. Yeah, we got it. But that is very comforting and relatable for me to hear that you read them too.
21:00Lee Sung Jin:Well, I go looking for it. I go looking for the trouble.
21:02David Chase:Oh, I literally, if you, I don't have my phone on me. If you go to my Reddit now, the only saved search is my name in quotes. Yeah, like I made it like saved so I don't even have to type it now. I can just click on it because it's like the only thing that I look for is I have my name in quotes and beef Netflix as my two like saved Reddit searches. So I just it's like I'm like Pavlov's dog. I just like go and I click it and then I feel bad and then I love it and I go do it again. I know. It's so crazy. I think that is the hardest part about this job is that there's so many naysayers constantly throughout the process, right?
21:46David Chase:Like, you know, there's this one particular writer in the room who, incredible writer, but just pretty consistently was always opposite of what I wanted. You know, even like casting wise, oh, that'd be a horrible choice. No. Or like, oh, that will never work. Or like, I would do the opposite. Well, that's true.
22:06Lee Sung Jin:There are people like that.
22:07David Chase:And it's just like, so you, you, it's just constant, like I already have a very self-critical inner dialogue, but then it's just like constant that even around me. So then it becomes so hard to quiet everything and listen to. But you keep them. Some of them, you know, some of them, sometimes I like having like some, I mean, there's, if it's, if it's overly negative, I, I, you know, I don't bring them back. But, you know, one of my closest collaborators is Jake Schreier, who directed half of season one. He did two episodes this season. You know, we do Marvel stuff together. He and I just bicker constantly.
22:52David Chase:You do? Like, people get like, people walk out of the room because they get uncomfortable because of how much he and I are debating.
23:00Lee Sung Jin:Really?
23:00David Chase:And I'll just straight up, you know, I'll tell him he's wrong for this, this, and this reason. I'll bring up other things he was wrong about and then he'll find ways to throw things in my face he's your partner what I like about it I think we have a healthy amount of that because it's never personal it's always it's just purely about the craft or we don't ever dig at each other it's always just like why would you do that you know like why would you have the camera there like you're gonna have to do this this and this like you should have blocked it this way. And then we could have like saved ourselves a setup.
23:35David Chase:Like, you know, and then you're like not so cutty this scene. And I'm like, well, maybe I wanted it cutty because it's a fast pace scene and I don't want to do your slow pans all the time. And like, and so, but like, I feel like that back and forth is healthy because there's actually like, it feels like two people playing the same sport, you know? There's some like marksmanship to the way that we're engaging. But when it's the other thing, when they're like, oh, I would never do that. I'm like, okay, well, tell me why. And they can't back it up or their reasons are insane, just that their taste is, you know, that's the thing that I can't engage with, you know.
24:13David Chase:This job can be very like isolating. I find that I start to like, you know, if not for therapy, I'd be so screwed because you have all these things that keep building up and bubbling up and you have no one else to share it with because no one else... Very few people do what we do. Well, you know, I did that.
24:33Lee Sung Jin:I'm sure you're familiar with it. Silvio says to Tony, or Tony says to Silvio, you've got no idea what it's like to be number one, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Was that you venting about Sean? And it was Stevie because, you know, Stevie and I have had conversations about his relationship with other people he's worked with. yeah that was me venting I know it doesn't sound like it but also I thought some people will get it and they'll realize it as being funny I hope
25:09David Chase:I think people do I think more and more it's been interesting to see people's reactions even at the Cinematech screening that we did where I had the pleasure of moderating you Terry and Steve that it was just nonstop laughter both episodes I found. Both episodes? Yeah, I thought so. It was just like certainly more laughter than my premiere last night for Beef. No, there's a lot of laughter. Oh, no. Those two episodes, I mean, Pine Barrens was just nonstop.
25:39Lee Sung Jin:Pine Barrens is just funny as shit. It's just really funny. And so compared to it, of course, I felt that Proshay Labushka was not funny.
25:49David Chase:No, there were so many laughs. But all that to say, I feel like when I just remember when watching it you know 25 years ago that you know on a Sunday in front of the TV I don't remember laughing that much because I think at the time it was felt very
26:06Lee Sung Jin:dramatic it was very propulsive it's a strange thing with that show because I don't think it took a while for people to say oh this is funny yeah it took it took a while for that to catch It took 20 years, actually.
26:21David Chase:Were you, when people didn't get that it was funny, was that disappointing?
26:27Lee Sung Jin:No.
26:28David Chase:No, you're just.
26:29Lee Sung Jin:No, because I wasn't trying to write a comedy. I was just trying to write that show. I was trying to write life. Yeah. And it was also very difficult. No, it wasn't very difficult. The reason that show was good was because of the cast. And what it was about them, none of them were trying to be funny. Exactly. they were just saying the lines as they felt them but you but you were writing those like you know
26:56David Chase:for example when tony uh you know i think it was season five maybe where he he doesn't cheat uh for the first time with the real estate agent and then he he comes home and then the first thing
27:09Lee Sung Jin:he does is he opens the fridge and he's like what does a guy gotta do to get some turkey around here
27:14David Chase:You know, like that's – I'm sure when you're writing that, that's supposed to be funny. Is it funny or humorous? To me, it's the funniest.
27:25Lee Sung Jin:But see, that's the kind of thing that went on in my house. Just these abrupt changes of mood and everything's going fine and then you got to bring that up. That was happening all the time. So to me, it was only just writing honestly, whether it's honestly or not. That to me, it felt like reality.
27:48David Chase:So do you find that you also find that psychology that you're of these characters funnier as you get older? Was it less funny to you earlier on?
27:59Lee Sung Jin:I think so. Yeah. I think they're funnier now. Yeah. I mean, it blew me away. I mean, Pine Barrens just blew me away at the Egyptian.
28:07David Chase:It was incredible. Yeah. I mean, I've seen that episode maybe, I can't even count how many times now. Just always discovering new things too.
28:17Lee Sung Jin:You know what my least favorite joke is?
28:19David Chase:What?
28:20Lee Sung Jin:The guy's a Czechoslovakian. He killed 17 Czechoslovakians. He's an interior decorator. Yes. His house looked like shit. That's my least favorite joke. Why? I don't know. It's so good. It seems so easy to me. I mean, listen, it's funny, but there's, I don't know. It's just so easy to me. And I've talked with Terry about it. I think I have.
28:43David Chase:Yeah.
28:44Lee Sung Jin:I mean, I love the episode. I love Terry's writing. He's a genius. He's better than me. But I don't know. That's why I said to you, you know, my least favorite is what everybody else's favorite joke is, is my least favorite.
28:57David Chase:So then when you have a joke like that where it's your least favorite, why do you keep it in? I guess I didn't hear it.
29:05Lee Sung Jin:I read it on the page. And I didn't hear the delivery. and I didn't hear how stupid Pauly sounded. Both of them sounded. It was like, they were, it was over the top to me.
29:22David Chase:But there must be a part of you, and I'm very curious, because this happens to me too, where like, I'll really not like something. And then either Jake or my editor or someone will be like, you got to keep that in. And I'll begrudgingly do it. Like if I really hate something, it's not going to be in the show. You know, like I'll blow up the shot structure to make sure that we can edit around something. But if it's like, I wouldn't do that, but other people seem to love it. You know, I'm just like, all right. Who am I to say? Yeah.
30:04Lee Sung Jin:I mean, do you have a favorite line or a hated line? in I don't what I don't hate that line let me get that straight I don't hate that line about the interior decorator it just
30:16David Chase:I don't know I I think I have a I mean definitely in B5 there's I'm trying to think of season one there's definitely lines where I thought it wasn't gonna hit as hard like there's a line that people love that didn't come from me it was it was one of the writers There's Alice Jew, really smart, younger writer. She's got her own show now that's coming out on Peacock. But she came up with the line, Western therapy doesn't work on Eastern minds, which is a great line. But sometimes when it's like writing so perfect like that, that's like a very clever line, right? Like it's like someone really smart came up with that.
31:05David Chase:Well, it seems kind of studied. It feels very studied. It came from the mouth of Stephen Young, who's playing this lower class, you know, hustling character. So part of me bristled where I'm like, that doesn't feel like something he would say.
31:21Lee Sung Jin:Lower order, whatever you want to say, hustling people come up with brilliant things. Yes, exactly. And you got to have that stuff in it. Otherwise. Yes.
31:32David Chase:So I justified it in my head that he probably read that somewhere. loved it and now like says it over and over and over again so that's how like i was like okay we can keep that in but then i'm so glad we did because people like that's probably i don't have a lot of quotable lines from the show i found like beef doesn't have people don't seem to quote it uh that much but um that's the one thing that they do quote is that line so you know it's a great it's a great line yeah i'm glad we kept it but it was one of those things where i'm like Like, I want to write that, but I'm going to just trust that other people seem to really like it.
32:08David Chase:Well, that's why it's called a collaborative medium, you know? Yeah, exactly. I've always wanted to ask you, and I haven't gotten a chance to yet, how did you go about picking the needle drops in your episodes? How did I go about it? Yeah, do you, like, you know, some people have, like, a collection of songs that they pick from, or they're like, oh, I know I'll kind of want to use these songs someday. some people are just like staring at the scene in the edit and then just something comes to you inspired and then you try a song over it.
32:39Lee Sung Jin:Well, before we talk about that,
32:43Lee Sung Jin:let's talk about the score. Okay. Obviously, you felt that was necessary. That amount of it was necessary. It was a lot, yes. Very good score, but a lot. Yeah. But a very good score.
32:53David Chase:Thank you.
32:54Lee Sung Jin:And you're happy with it.
32:55David Chase:Extremely happy with it. It was very tough. we had much less score season one because season one was more about two really lonely isolated people that didn't even their relationships were kind of like one way streets and so I found that anytime we tried to do any score with like melody to it it just didn't it got like weird and like cheesy feeling so most of season one score is very percussive it's just like kind of tension building percussion and I knew pretty early on when we were writing season two because it's all about love and marriage and and that's so much emotion and all their relationships are two-way streets like we do hopefully care that these people end up together or not uh that I I knew I needed uh to switch composers and go with Phineas because I was just obsessed with the way he writes music.
33:53David Chase:It's so emotive and he's able to just pull at your heartstrings very elegantly and simply. We early on were like, I know this is going to have a lot of wall-to-wall score. You did know that. Even Jake and I, when we were shooting the cold open for episode one, that's like a nine-minute cold open, which is way too long. And you're intercutting between the two couples constantly. the like we didn't tell anybody but jake and i like kind of both like without even having to tell each other knew like oh this will be wall-to-wall score for the cold open oh really yeah you know we tried it without it just there's almost like what was it like without felt like it was missing almost like the hand of god you know i think there's a lot of fun of that there's something bigger looming above these characters or under these characters tying the hand of god or the brain of the creator of the scene?
34:57David Chase:I think truly I mean more like that there is a, you know, outside of the four characters, these two couples, you're kind of missing the fifth character of fate. Fate. Yeah. That there is something bigger than them kind of pushing the two cars together to crash.
35:20Lee Sung Jin:Mm-hmm.
35:20David Chase:And even as we were doing the first three episodes, we kept telling Phineas, hey, this is feeling too serious or too funny. We kind of need to like, the score needs to almost feel like God knowing that there's other stuff coming. There has to be like something ominous. Oh, other stuff coming. That's interesting. Yeah, like a feeling of dread. And even if it's like a scene that we, there's no dread to it. It's just like a minutiae scene about, you know, two characters.
35:55Lee Sung Jin:But if you go da-da-da in that scene, you're going to say, well, something's going to happen. Yeah, exactly.
36:00David Chase:Like, I don't know why. That's why we use a lot of arpeggios. Just kind of this like looming melody that goes up and down of like, I don't know why I'm feeling this way, but something's not good.
36:11Lee Sung Jin:Now, I wasn't paying attention to it this way. So, was it an orchestra or was it electronic?
36:17David Chase:It was mostly synths. It was. Yeah. Because, you know, I don't know if you did this with Sopranos much, but like, or on your film, like, I always had the grand designs of, oh, I'm going to get the composer started early, and we'll have our own original cues to use when we edit. And then that never works out. And so then you end up temping with, you know, other existing score. And when we were trying to temp our first two episodes, like, nothing was working. I was just like this show's a disaster like I don't know it's unscorable because it was like you know like if you put too serious of music on there then everything feels so melodramatic and then if you if it's if it's too light then it feels too broad like the comedy's too zany and I'm you know it just makes you feel like I'm a terrible writer trombone lover yeah and then something worked when we put John Carpenter underneath some of the stuff really yeah it felt like Like it made me as an audience feel like, oh, I am in good hands because it feels like whoever's making this knows that the tone of this is a little bit heightened.
37:26David Chase:John Carpenter. Yeah. The John Carpenter. The John Carpenter. Boy, that's interesting. So that's why we landed on synths because we were like, oh, for some reason Carpenter's working on here. Like let's go like heavy on the synths.
37:38Lee Sung Jin:You used John Carpenter and it pointed the way. Yeah.
37:42David Chase:Yeah. Wow. And I think it is because of that ominous thing. You put Carpenter under there with those scents, you just felt like this is a normal scene at a country club. It's just like someone texting while their general manager is watching them. But now that there's scents under it and it's Carpenter, you felt like, oh, I don't know. There's no monster, but there is something looming. And it felt like the right amount of wink at the audience too.
38:10Lee Sung Jin:Okay, so you had no violence and killing. So you had to do something. Yes, exactly.
38:19David Chase:So it's a little bit of a cheat. No, it's not. Then what was weird is once we got to the back half with actual high stakes going on, the carpenter stuff didn't work anymore.
38:31Lee Sung Jin:Isn't that amazing?
38:32David Chase:So then we actually had to pull that back and then we ended up going more percussive in the back half because, yeah, it's like a weird balancing act, you know?
38:42Lee Sung Jin:See, I don't really understand score that well.
38:45David Chase:I don't really either, clearly, because I tried everything. It took me a long time to find Carpenter. What an idea, though. That's great. Oh, thank you. I mean, you, in my head, really created the idea of needle drops ending shows. Needle drop endings. Yes. Like, I don't know that I ever clocked that in television until Sopranos, how to use it. And in the room, I constantly told writers all the time, like someone would pitch a song to end the show and it'd be like too on the nose. And I kept telling people, no, what we're chasing is what The Sopranos did, which is what I love. It's like I was always so surprised by the choices.
39:28David Chase:I'm like, this is, I don't know how David landed here. This is the last thing I'd ever imagined for the scene. But it felt so – it made me want to lean in and interpret and get in your brain of like, I wonder why he's using this right now. Wow. I mean, that makes me feel great to hear that.
39:44Lee Sung Jin:Thank you. Thank you. See, I wonder, is that over? Should I forget that now? Have I done enough of that? What do you mean? The needle drop ending.
39:56David Chase:I don't think it's – I'm doing it every single episode, you know? I think when it works, it works really well. And I'm so curious what your process was like when you're – were you just kind of like – you know, obviously the biggest one that everyone talks about is Don't Stop Believin'. Like, it's such a wild choice. There's so many other things, but it's – I can't imagine it any other way.
40:25Lee Sung Jin:I don't think we ever used any crappy songs. No. Which would be a way of going. Sure. Well, I mean, I could tell you how it all, the whole thing came about is that, it says here in this notes that I was given that, I think that's in here, it says that I want to be a musician, a professional musician. That's not really the case. I was in a band when I was, well, after the Stones came out. I had been, you know, I took drum lessons and drum, you know, jazz drumming, I was really into that. Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Max Roach, I loved all of those things. So like a lot of guys my age, I wanted to be the Rolling Stones.
41:17Lee Sung Jin:And my friends and I formed a band. We never played one date, not one. Why not? We were too good.
41:28Lee Sung Jin:And we're not going to share this. it has to be better before we have to really get it all worked out. On some way, that's kind of where we were at. We were more comfortable living in this fantasy that we already were there. So my friend Donnie, he was like the king of rock and roll in our town. And he had had a band before this, an instrumental band like the Ventures called the Earthquakes. and four guys, and all of them were my friends, and I played the drums, but I wasn't picked. So in 1967, I told him, you know, I'm thinking of going to film school. That's what I said to him, the other guy, the other guitar player, Pete.
42:20Lee Sung Jin:He said, well, okay, but I don't think you'll ever be anything more than the drummer in my band. And, well, number one, it's not your band.
42:33Lee Sung Jin:And thank you because that's more inspiring than anything my parents ever said. Then I said to Donnie at some point, I said, you know what? I'm not going to use classical music like they do in movies. That's what I thought score was. He said, no, what do you mean? He was the king of rock and roll. I said, no, I'm going to use rock and roll. He said, don't do that.
42:56Lee Sung Jin:i said what do you mean he said don't do that don't use rock and roll but see also they had used rock and roll in easy rider uh-huh um then i went to see mean streets and like that motherfucker he had be my baby started it on boom boom boom ah well i was in heaven yeah Oh, I went crazy. Then there was a song from the 50s called You by the Aquatones. A very sad, almost religious kind of song. And it was never running on any oldie shows because there was some legal problem with it. So halfway through the movie, he's one great track after another. On comes You. And I'm just like. I think I did start crying.
43:49Lee Sung Jin:Wow. And then I got to be a producer in TV. I used you three times in three different series. Anyway, that's how it all. So when you say, what is your instinct? I just, I don't know.
44:04David Chase:So it really was just songs you loved that you just found spots for.
44:12Lee Sung Jin:I didn't love all of them. Most of them I did. Most of them I did. And I can see why they... Some of them were really great.
44:25David Chase:It's funny you say that because when we were working on season one, I kept telling the writer's room, I'm like, I want to get that feeling that David got with the Sopranos with those needle drops. And I don't know 60s and 70s rock as well. And should we use this song and this song? And then, you know, because originally I did have a, I had like a bunch of 90s songs that, you know, set for season one. And one of the writers, Alex Russell, he was like, Sonny, just stick to your 90s thing. Because 90s music to you is what those 60s rock songs were to David. Yeah. So you're just, you don't have to go do the 60s rock, just do the thing that you grew up with.
45:10David Chase:Yeah. and that like turns the knot in my head yeah and i was like oh okay i'm just gonna go dive deep into my teenage years and just pick stuff that i i love it's weird right so you're how old are you
45:24Lee Sung Jin:and you're using your favorite songs as a teenager yeah uh in this career bending show or maybe you'll
45:29David Chase:get fired you know yeah it was very and at the time too i i uh you know 90s hadn't really like become hadn't come full circle back yet and i did have some people in my life because i was like i was rediscovering like all my old like you know favorite albums i was just playing them non-stop and just like you know people in my life were like why are you listening to so much 90s music right now like oh like can you turn it off and i was just like no i think this is this is it like i'm like feeling like myself again you know wow and so yeah it's great it's a great oh it's
46:06Lee Sung Jin:you know when it works it's it's my favorite part of the whole operation yes is putting the song on the you know throwing things on it and trying it when it hits it's it's it's it you know it yes and what happened with us they started sending us stuff record companies yeah started sending us stuff people you've never heard of and haven't heard of since there was some russian band group a girl group and i said that's great let's use that because it worked you know yeah And that was like 2006 or something. When you look back at the show, I mean, I have to give credit also to Martin Bruce Lee, who was our post-production supervisor, who picked a lot of the music.
46:48Lee Sung Jin:He picked more of the, and I always get confused, source music.
46:52David Chase:Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One last thing I wanted to ask you, which I think it's like I relate to so much because I'm the same way. like when we were doing the Cinematech screening, you talked to the audience about how the VFX in the second episode of season three has driven you crazy for quite some time. And similarly for me, there's this one VFX in the finale of episode one that didn't get - This year? Last year that didn't get uploaded correctly. And so the plants freeze. Like you see them moving and suddenly they freeze and it drives me nuts and I need to open it up again and try to upload it.
47:33David Chase:When you watch old episodes, like are there things that you really, really wish you could go back and change? Or things that you feel like either?
47:43Lee Sung Jin:Yeah, sure.
47:43David Chase:I don't watch it much.
47:44Lee Sung Jin:I don't really watch it. I would say most of those episodes I haven't seen since the Sunday night they broadcast. Oh, wow. How do you - I mean, sometimes I've gone back to see who was, if I'm like trying to cast somebody, what was that guy? Who was that? I mean, I've done some of it and I've done it at these events, but I haven't seen Christopher and now I'm thinking oh yeah
48:05David Chase:do you find that when you watched it the two episodes at the screening my head when I watch stuff back it's hard for me to enjoy because I'm like that camera lens was wrong or that I think the further away you get from it I mean this
48:27Lee Sung Jin:is like 20-25 years for me So when I look at it, I go, oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Because I'm not in the process anymore. I'm not in the process where I'm thinking, God damn it, three more frames. You know, and all those stupid things you're thinking. Yeah. They go away. You're just watching it because you don't remember it.
48:47David Chase:Oh, God, I can't wait for that. I'm telling you, it's good.
48:50Lee Sung Jin:You'll like it.
48:52David Chase:The one last thing I wanted to ask you too about is about what you're writing now. I know you don't want to probably talk about two in depth, But I'm just so fascinated that you keep circling and coming back to MKUltra and that era and LSD. And it just feels like almost a spiritual next step, given that where Sopranos ended and some of the existential deeper themes that you were examining. that really feels like the companion to carry forth those themes. I'm curious, is that sort of like your main passion project right now? I mean, well, it's silly.
49:38Lee Sung Jin:There's two. There's a movie that I've been working on for six years, a movie about MKUltra and some other things, and then there's the series for HBO, which I thought to myself, how did I get myself into this jam where I'm doing two projects about the same thing? And I blame my agent, because he made me go down and talk to Casey Bloys about it. So you can't option that book. You have to clear, you have a deal at HBO. I went down there and I thought, so he said, I'll buy it. So now I have two. But now I'm really excited about it, because it can be completely different. Yeah.
50:20David Chase:I can't wait to see what you do with that. There is so much there. Oh, my God. I feel like it's such a fertile ground for you to talk about and express even more deeply some of these deeper life questions. Yeah.
50:39Lee Sung Jin:Well, it starts in 1954, and that was America at its top. Right? We'd beaten the Nazis. The economy was great. Our science was better than anybody's. We had everything going for us. And then you go into the 60s and...
50:55David Chase:I mean, it's so funny how things are cyclical.
50:58Lee Sung Jin:Yeah. Yeah.
50:59David Chase:Yeah, here we are again.
51:00Lee Sung Jin:Well, this, you know, I can't wait to see yours on the air. Thank you. It will be different, right?
51:07David Chase:I hope so. But no.
51:10Lee Sung Jin:What do you watch on home?
51:11David Chase:What do you watch it on? I usually watch it on my TV, but then I don't know if you find this. Because we spend so much time color grading the show, it's so hard to get that TV to replicate the color grade properly. And the only thing that replicates it exactly is an iPad Pro. So I sadly watch the episodes mostly now on the iPad Pro because my eye is so used to it. It's so depressing.
51:43Lee Sung Jin:It's sad.
51:44David Chase:It's just all that work, and it's like me in a room with a little iPad. That's great. Yeah, 2026, that's where we're at. That's incredible. I mean, I think we covered a lot. That was delightful, as always. Same here. Yeah. I could do this for hours. I could do a little bit better with you.
52:04Lee Sung Jin:Okay. I'm joking. I'll do whatever David wants.
From the publisher
Topics covered include: Learning to write everywhere, Lee Sung Jin's after death theory, the Bardo, David’s screenplay with Micheal Imperioli, Buddhism, the process of selecting iconic needle drops, bonding over created universes, comparing writers to golfers, Pavlov's dog, realizing The Sopranos was funny, favorite (and least favorite) lines in their shows, selecting Finneas for the wall-to-wall score of Beef season 2, the fifth character of fate, using John Carpenter as temp score, finding inspiration in the rock and roll of Mean Streets, rewatching old episodes, and David’s current passion project. (edited)