Episode 389: Bridging the Recovery Gap: How AI is Transforming Treatment Admissions with David Sichel

0:00All right, everybody, I want to tell you about today's sponsor, Wired for Addiction. And honestly, I am so excited about this partnership. You might remember Dr. Evelyn Higgins from when she came on the show to talk about the biomarkers of addiction. That episode landed in such a powerful way for so many of you. And I really believe in the work she's doing. Here's the thing. If you or someone you love has been caught in chronic relapse, addiction switching, or treatment that only works for a while, the issue may not be behavioral. It may be biological, and that changes everything. Dr. Higgins and her team actually measure the underlying biomarkers driving these patterns, dopamine, cortisol, inflammation, mitochondrial function, and then build a personalized plan to bring your biology back into balance.

0:53She put together a free guide for you. The Biology of Addiction 10 Core Biomarkers. Download it at theaddictedmind.com forward slash wired. That's theaddictedmind.com forward slash wired. There'll also be a link in the show notes. And I want you to know, you are not broken. Sometimes your biology just needs to be understood. And I think that brings a lot of hope. All right, on to this episode. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Addicted Mind podcast. I'm Dwayne Osterland, and I'm so glad you're here.

1:30Reach out. We get it. We're not going to shame you. We're not going to look down on you. Reach out. Just call anybody. Anybody, a priest, a treatment center, whoever you could call that knows this, or somebody else in recovery, reach out. We need you and we want you. Today, I'm talking with David Seychelles. David is in long-term recovery, 12 and a half years, and he's the founder of Blue Shirt Media, an AI call answering platform built for addiction treatment centers. And before that, he ran a sober transport business, driving people to rehab in his own car with his dog in the backseat because he's seen what happens when someone in crisis gets handed off to a stranger who doesn't care.

2:17And here's what makes this one matter to me. Think about the moment you finally decide to ask for help. That small window where you pick up the phone. If nobody answers, that window can close. And David knows from the inside. He's been the guy sitting in the dark waiting. So we talk about what happens at two in the morning when a treatment center's phone rings and there's no one there. We talk about how you hold that business side of treatment and the humanity of the person calling at the same time. And we get into his passion project, reaching out to the people who called once, didn't get in, and didn't hear anything after that.

2:58But before we jump in, if this podcast has been meaningful to you, take a moment to rate and review The Addicted Mind on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Even better, write a review. Those reviews help people who are struggling find this show. And don't forget, follow us on social media so you can stay connected. All right, let's get into this episode. All right, everyone, welcome. I've got David Seichel with me. and we're here to talk, I think, about a unique part of the recovery ecosystem. And that is when people call treatment centers. How do they get into the treatment center? How do we help those people get services, the marketing piece, and all of that.

3:49So Dave, I'm glad you're here to talk about this because I think this is really important. So I want you to introduce yourself, share a little bit of your story, a little bit of what's going on for you, and we'll go from there. Yeah. Hi, my name is David Seychelles. I am glad to be here. First of all, thank you for putting me on. I always like to share about recovery and also how that relates in business, in my business today, and how I can get satisfaction on helping people and also in my, you know, make it operates as a business too. But just a quick background on me. I actually had surgery.

4:32I was in the hospital all week. I had a pacemaker. So we're just testing her out. So don't talk too late. No, I'm kidding. But I did have surgery. So anyway, but. Well, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you got that. I'm going back as soon as they. No, I was really needs to help. So I'm glad. I'm just grateful. Like I am grateful for most things in my life and I owe it all to recovery. That's where I feel that we're all everything that drives me and also everything that that I I live to do. So anyway, we were talking a little bit before, and I'm going to go quick on this, but I originally got sober at 16, and I stayed clean for 17 years, and I thought weed was a good idea at the time, and I don't have to get to the rest of that.

5:24But within three days, I was worse than I ever was at that life. Because I believe the lie. I believe, like people used to joke it with me, that you're too young. This is 1980s, in the 80s. So, you know, it's different. More young people are around now. But people used to joke, you know. And, you know, when you want to relapse, I could tell you a thousand things. But when you want to relapse, you're going to relapse. You know, I stopped going to meetings. I went backwards. So anyway, I had some issues. I got clean a second time and I stayed clean, whatever, for five years. And crazy enough, you know, like the insanity is doing the same thing time after time again, expected different results.

6:09I actually thought weed would be a good idea part two. My wife, I was married at the time. My wife smoked it. She looked fun. We could laugh, eat ice cream. It's all good, right? because my addiction talked to me, and I didn't have the skill set. I didn't have the people around and support to reach out. So that is the same as part one. That's how it ended. Third time in treatment, 12 and a half years ago, February 17th is my date, and went to treatment. And this time I wasn't there talking about all the other times I was there. When I came back the second time, it was like I knew all this stuff, and I knew all these people.

6:50And I basically, I see sometimes too, people live off what they did. And I was just, this time I was just grateful to be back. So, you know, I went to meetings, got involved, went to detox for five days. 21 days later, they let me out and went to treatment for a couple weeks and going from the youngest guy in treatment to one of the oldest guys in treatment. It's different getting clean at 50 than it is at 16 and in near 30. So, but anyway, so, you know, I did everything I was supposed to do and I have been doing everything I was supposed to do. You know, two years clean, I got cancer bypass surgery, lost 145 pounds.

7:31For me, the fork, that's a rough one too. Right. You gotta eat, right? Yeah. Stay clean, no medication, which people could do what they want. Just for me, I played that song before and I know what it sounded like. So I went straight, you know, so I just dived in. I started a home group. We're celebrating 12 years in July at 10 years clean, which people don't talk about a lot. I fell into a really bad depression. I didn't want to live anymore, you know, and it was bad. It was dark, you know. That's all I could describe it. But I held on. I had a small network of people that I checked in. I had checking with people every day.

8:09They were ready to take me to, you know, to a place to get help. But I didn't. thank god through medicate in my case through medication that worked for me right you know it's been you know over a year so so that's my recovery story in a nutshell whatever the meaning i could speak for two hours but we're giving you the uh compact version so anyway uh when i was about four or five years clean i started a business called sober transport are we up to this part Yeah, you can go into that. I was just going to ask you one question before we get there. Just this kind of last time, what do you think really changed for you that said, okay, this time I'm really going to throw myself in.

8:56I'm really going to put everything into my recovery. Everybody, except my sister, everybody was gone. My kids, my wife, it was dark. I don't know if I was depressed, but I couldn't stop using it. I didn't hit a bottom like you hear about all the time. It was just another shitty, can I curse? yeah it's a recovery uh podcast again yeah so it was just another shitty day in my life you know what i mean texted a friend said what are you doing i said nothing but using we can't stop he said there's a one o 'clock meeting near me he said come to the one o 'clock went to the one o 'clock and they they cornered me in the morning to get a detox right and i had every excuse in the world you know how it is i got to do this i 12 everything i told them 12 years later i haven't done any of those things right but it was right he's talking to me so it was just you know like you had a you had a network of people around you that could support you i mean i mean that's a sign of recovery too when you create that and people can like pull you out of your own stuff your own shit right they they kind of corner you and say look you need you need help i mean that's people that care about you That's great.

10:14To your point, I don't know if that would have worked if I wasn't around. So I believe higher power God, however you say it on your show, I believe that there was another life for me. And I'm blessed because people drive by every day when I'm in a meeting. They're kinkically. They don't know about fellowships. And, you know, so I'm involved in the fellowship, really involved. one of the happiest things besides my kids one of the happiest things I do is I have the commitment to take the meeting into the prison up here once a week, Wednesdays at 12 and it was weird because we were on Zoom for five years they wouldn't let us in.

10:58I don't think they want us there I hope they don't watch this podcast, but I don't think they want us there not because it's us, because they don't want to do more work but we go there, meet another guy every week We started with one person. Now we're up to seven. When I go in there, it's serious recovery. People that, you know, what I'm saying is if you have a chance to do any recovery, you know, any service work, whether it's, you don't have the x-rays anymore, whether it's making coffee in the beginning, going speaking at a rehab, chairing at a rehab, there's a million things. And it always seems like where I am that there's never enough people to cover it, right?

11:40We tend to forget. So wherever you are sitting right now, we need you, too, because this is where our people are. And what kind of message do you say to somebody if you can't meet them there? Meet them where they're at. Well, that's where they're at. And it's a pretty, it's no question what got them there. So that's really what keeps me motivated. Yeah. So. And so let's talk about, you know, as you're doing this, you started a sober transport business. What is that? What do you, you know, for someone out there, sober transport, what are you talking about? Yeah. So I drove over, you know, when you can't clean, you're trying to find your life.

12:25I never had a thought. So I've been an entrepreneur since I've been 21, and I'm always, you know, I like the next thing. I think that's part of the addictive personality, too. I agree with that. ADHD, the addictive personality. But anyway, so I started this business, Silver Transport, because I was driving Uber, and people were coming into the car high and actually going to rehab. And I thought to myself, what if this guy needs to be Narcan? What is Uber going to do? Right? Yeah. Okay. So I got certified as a recovery specialist here in Pennsylvania. And I got, became, you know, took a course for intervention.

13:05I started to go to the house before when they called. It's a, you know, you know, it's a big thing from just, yeah, I'm coming to getting in the car. So I talked about my dog barking before. And I brought him. Me and him are the business. We've been in newspapers. There's articles about us, you know. And I would talk people into getting into the car. But crazy enough, as people know in recovery, like a lot of people just got in because my dog was in the car. And we would drive eight, nine hours. At the end of it, I was doing trips. Like I would go to Maine, fly to Maine, and pick somebody up and escort them to Florida.

13:48I was contract working. And then COVID hit. So that was the end of that story. nobody there was i don't know if you remember there was a lot nobody was sure the protocol of yeah no one knew what to do so i'm like i'm out so i stopped that business but in that business i learned a lot of things first of all i was in the position to help i know there's always a line because you get paid and you know what i mean and you're helping yeah but i really felt like a lot of these people would never go and wouldn't have gone if it wasn't i give a lot of credit to my dog if it wasn't me and my dog you know going and picking people up right and uh you know just give it somebody rather than filling them in a van it was just a good idea to talk to them find out their story meet with them i would reach out to the family after yeah bring the humanity to it right like bring the humanity to it all the time it's not just a ride yeah working you know i'm working here, but we're trying to, you know, I would take, you know, just a real quick story.

14:50I took a guy and he got violent. I mean, that stuff happens too when you're in that business. I can't do it anymore, but the point I want to make out of that business is I worked with admissions departments and I saw how overworked and understaffed they were, you know? So what happened next was, you know, I learned about AI, right? And then I thought to myself, I was with one platform and another platform and now i and i'll get into the specifics but i do all the tech i have a developer but in-house so everything's in house here in the us so i had a thing of thought right and the thought was what happens at 2 a.m and you get a voicemail at a treatment yeah you know what they're done so we so what i've created is an ai that answers the phone that's empathetic that can do live transfers.

15:42So the first myth about AI, right, is it's here to take my job. No, no, no. That's not what we're doing here. What we're doing here is we're making your job more like, for example, we have a client that gets 90 % of his calls are state insurance, and he will take them, but he doesn't want to miss an insurance call, right? So what we do is AI completely takes the intake, does everything with the client, right? And puts them in their CRM. So the need is there. And also, so what we're doing there is we're freeing the admissions agents up to capture the right calls, right? For them. Right. Let's go back a little bit here.

16:26I want to talk about, you know, the role of answering these calls when people are reaching out for help and they need support and you're like it's 2 a.m in the morning and no live person is available how does ai help them in that moment i mean the importance of doing that right the importance of getting people into the right help yeah so if i'm really going to get a second time back i'll actually do a demo but um what what you know i want to get everything in so what it does the answer your question is what it does is it first of all gives a voice it lets the people know it's AI so we're not playing games and confusing them this calls recorded it also says at the beginning of every call if the client wants it we'll send you a text message after every message after every call which is big so they can call numbers they have connections which a lot of the other services I hear and I don't really know many of them don't do that so so to answer your question again is that it's a voice that answers the phone that's empathetic that knows everything that the treatment center wants it to know so we do a knowledge base and we also scan the website if you people have experience in admissions and treatment most of the questions are 90 of the questions are the same question right yeah so right answer those questions but if they have somebody like I've talked to centers that make their admissions people answer the phone at three in the morning.

18:03Just, you know what I mean? So if that's the case, we work with that. If that's the case, then what we'll do is we will just do a live transfer. We'll get the call. We'll screen out any, you know, we'll take all the information. If it's a valid, serious lead, we'll do a live transfer at 3 a.m. if that's what the client wants. But we also, if they don't, if they're not open and they want to go the next day, we'll send the client, the person looking for recovery, a text message reminder. Hey, it's Joe. And it's in their CRM as a new lead. They have the information. I'm not big on holding information.

18:41Everything we do is HIPAA. We follow the HIPAA laws, BAAs we sign. So we do everything there. I know I went in a few directions, but did that answer what you were? Yeah. I mean, one of the questions I have, and I would imagine people listening to this, you know, especially when someone is really, really vulnerable, right. And they're coming in to get support, right. Often the fear of being thought of as, as a customer, not a person. Right. And, and that balancing act. I mean, the reality is, like you said, I mean, there's a treatment centers have to make enough money to be able to stay open and be able to function and pay their staff and all of that.

19:24That's a reality that we live in, right? That's part of it. But I'm wondering, like, balancing those two pieces together so that it's also a person, right? It's also someone who's really vulnerable at the most, maybe darkest moment in their life. Yeah. So, let's talk about, before we get to that, Let's talk about what the other options are for that specific caller you're talking about. A voicemail is dead. There's nothing there. Hey, ABC treatment, we're open at 9 a.m., please come back, whatever. That's not a good, in my opinion, not a good option, right? No contact at all. Maybe a customer service rep that they call, that they work all night, right?

20:07Sometimes people aren't friendly. I'm not saying all the time, and I'm sure most companies go through this. But there's pros and cons to any situation. So where we come in is even with overnight reps, what we come in is we're the first line of defense. We're the first person to go. So the AI is programmed to be empathetic. Oh, Joe, I'm so glad you shared that with us. Well, for example, I'm so glad it takes a lot of courage, things like that. Right. But also the advantage about AI is you and me, we're as smart as we're going to get right now. Right. I know for me, I won't speak for you, but I'm at my max right now, right?

20:48And it's actually going down and drop. So what I mean by that is AI will constantly be ran through AI to learn what's best, to give the client data. Here's another. So I just wanted to make sure. I was going to tell you about one other thing we did because we do two things. But I just wanted to make sure that everybody's cool on how the phone works. The phone is the first line. It can be 24 hours a day for smaller centers that may not have the bandwidth to have somebody do it. It could be 24 hours a day for multi-centers that just get a lot of calls and want to filter certain calls. So we can run the whole scope of things.

21:31We also, at the same time, software does missed calls. we work with missed calls calling them back you know transferring them back to a live line we also deal with long hold times treatment center six minutes hi joe it's mary i don't know i do the phone hi joe from you know just let you know is there anything anything you want to know your rep's going to be whatever however they said it we do we put in design what the client wants So we're not coming in and saying, look, you need to put this in there and that in there. There are certain things we suggest, but you need to run like your admissions department.

22:13We can do anything. We can customize it. I mean, I think what I also think about this is that in our old system, it's so hard to get into treatment. Oftentimes, I know, you know, working in the mental health space, right? People call our offices. And we work really hard to get back to people and help them or direct them or give them where, you know, if they're not right for us here, you could try this or whatever, right? Try and do that. But oftentimes they tell us like, you know, I called four other people and no one returned my call. Right. And that's a balancing piece, too. And I do see the benefit of leveraging technology to help people who are in that moment, at least in that moment, they can get some support, even if it's not a human per se.

23:06But it's still like somebody can start to direct them or the AI can start to direct them in the right way. Otherwise, you know, to call and like just either no one answers or it's just a voicemail. You have no idea if you're even going to get help. Most people, I don't even think, I think they just hang up. They don't even leave a voicemail. So then they don't get the help that they need. They don't get the support. And it sounds like what you're trying to do is create a bridge to help those people. At least that's what I hear you saying. That's a good point. That's a good way to explain it. Yeah, that is what we're trying to do to make it easy, to answer 100 % of the calls, not 80%.

23:44percent not nine the other thing i want to say before i jump over is to the other thing i was going to talk about which is my passion project little cue to the next section is that we that what we do with the calls and is you got to remember a lot of times the treatment center is paying two hundred dollars for that call and it's not getting answered they bought a google ad or facebook ad net ad whatever or it could be a referral from another client so my passion project is really in the same field, but it's the next step. And you really cheered me up for it. You won't even realize you did it, but you file.

24:24Well, first of all, what you were talking about, about the phone, nobody under 50 answers their phone anymore anyway. So, you know, you can call it. It's not going to matter. But my passion project is that what we do is we take the inactive file. Now, what's the inactive file? Exactly who you were talking about. First example is a treatment center goes out and spends$100 ,000 or$25 ,000 on Facebook, meta, Google, whatever, and converts X amount of leads. Who calls the other one? Well, they do three times, and then it's inactive. There's that file. So why isn't it a passion project for me? Because that was me.

25:01I was that guy sitting there in the dark. So what we do is we take the list of people and we send a text message. Hey, Joe, it's Tom from ABC Treatment. Just check in and see how you're doing. The case studies that we publish, we get about a 22 % response rate. Now, understanding that response rate, that's not, yes, I'm coming back to treatment. We don't ask clients for admission numbers. So what we do is the AI, text AI, will actually engage the person to qualify them. If they're qualified, they go to click the call right to admissions. The AI, I like when the AI can hand off. Me personally, it's my preference.

25:45So 22%, and then we give them a click the call if they're interested, right to admissions. And then we work with the companies on the length of the call. So everything's ethical and clean and that. So we don't, like I said, we don't ask for admission numbers. I don't feel like it's my place. But, you know, I'm not, we're not a big, I say we, it's really me, developer and my dog. We're not a big company, right? And we don't have a hundred clients, right? But I care, right? I, my clients get me any time of the day or night. I want to reach those people who, I was just at the show in California I don't know anybody because it's me I don't know anybody else that's doing that or even talking about that file it shouldn't be me to bring that up but you know what I love it I think you bring up an important point I think the hard thing is talking about this topic of bringing leads into a facility and the business side of it can feel at the same time dehumanizing, right?

27:01But at the same time, this is people reaching out for help and needing help and getting them help and balancing that. And like you said earlier, an ethical way to follow like ethical principles when dealing with vulnerable people and keeping that. But we need to be able to help these people when they reach out. you maybe have, in my opinion, a moment to pull this person into the support that's going to change their life for the better. Oftentimes, I think people in recovery, they have that moment of sanity and they make that call. And then if you don't talk to them within the next 15 minutes, they've changed their mind and then they don't get help.

27:47And not because it's just about having a lead and getting people into treatment, but it's getting them the help and support. And so there's that, I guess, that balancing act of those two things. And I think that's the hardest part of this whole piece. Yeah. And I just want to say one quick thing, because I know we're running up here, is that the text message is so underused. And we do it, we get a client approved to be able to send text messages. And they're monitored by the phone companies. I can't take a list of numbers you bought on the web and do that. This is contact that you've already made.

28:26I saw the frustration in your eyes when you were talking about calling people back and treatment. The text message is, John is just sitting at the kitchen table. He's not going to take a call with mom and dad there about treatment. But he gets a text. It's the way to reach people under 50. And I don't see people doing it a lot. Maybe our Texas is or Texas that, but we need to open that up, right? Because we got to get them at using what you were saying. He could be ready at that time. What's going to work? A number he doesn't know is going to answer that call or can it be a text message? So we work with alumni, relapse, you know, wherever the people can't reach.

29:11That's what we try to do. Yeah, I think it's an important part of this work to be able to do that. I mean, it's the first moment when someone reaches out for help. And it's this, like I was just saying earlier, it's just this vulnerable place. And it's like being able to, you know, help people find the support they need. I think that's the biggest, I think that's one of the biggest obstacles for so many people. It's like they go, I know I need help. I have no idea where to go or how to go. And then I take the risk to call and no one either answers or there's a voicemail or they don't call me back or whatever.

29:48That can be so devastating for someone who's like in that moment of reaching out for help and then they don't get a response. And I've also seen that side of it. So I appreciate the balancing act of having to do those two things. Like we've got to get people into treatment. We've got to do it in an ethical way, but we've got to reach out to them. We can leverage technology to be able to get those people in so they can get the support that they need. And there's a lot of great treatment centers out there that can really support a lot of people. Just one quick thing is you're right. It's the person's moment of sanity.

30:31But that person could be somebody that we reach out to could have been in treatment seven times. like me. Keep going back to me, not to be self-centered, but just to say, I know that if I would have got a text, I probably would have responded to it at that point. Luckily, I think at the time, but this is also for alumni. People call, alumni that don't answer the phone. Relapse, people that called in and went through the phone and hung up, it's anywhere where they can't reach them. Yeah, no, I think it can be incredibly helpful, this kind of stuff. You know, I recently went through some medical stuff like you and the hospital and all the people, you know, like I know the texts were automated, right?

31:18And I know that they're not a person, but they still made me feel like, oh, they're watching out for me. I can reach out. They've got, if I need it, it's there, right? It's still, to me, I felt like they had my back. But I know it was it was not there was not a person there writing that text. But it's OK. And I kind of feel like I know this is their system and that feels OK to me because I know they're trying to make sure that I'm cared for. So I like that piece. And I think we can use this technology in a really positive way. Yeah, I agree. And I again, I'll say it again, not to keep repeating myself, but I love it.

31:56I love what I do. I get up in the morning and I really say, how can I, you know, there's personal stuff I do in my own recovery, but there's also this piece, which it helps. People will get, more people will go to treatment, 100%. Absolutely. I think it's an important piece of this whole picture. So, Dave, thank you for coming on. Before I let you go, I always ask every guest one question. Someone out there struggling. Someone out there is in that dark space. and you could tell them one thing, what would you want them to know? Reach out. We get it. We're not going to shame you. We're not going to look down on you.

32:37Reach out. Just call anybody. Anybody, a priest, a treatment center, whoever you could call that knows this, somebody else in recovery, reach out. We need you, and we want you. Absolutely, Dave. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you? Where do they go? What link? blueshirtmedia.com is my website. You can go there. You can see demos on the site, case studies, whatever you want. All I ask people is let's just talk and see how we can help you. Just talk to me. Tell me what you got. Let me show you what I can do. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on The Addicted Mind and talking about this specific topic.

33:22I just don't think it's talked about at all. Thank you, Dwayne. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

33:30All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. What stays with me is something David said almost in passing, that the file of people who called and never came in, that that was him. He wasn't describing a marketing problem. He was describing himself sitting in the dark, waiting for someone to notice he was gone. Reaching out takes almost everything a person has. And when nothing comes back, it quietly confirms the story they already believe about themselves. And that's why this matters so much more than just logistics. If this episode gave you a little bit of hope, do me a favor. Rate and review The Addicted Mind wherever you're listening.

34:07Write a review if you can. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. And follow us on social media. Every review, every share helps someone who's stuck in that darkness find a conversation that might just be the start of something different. So thanks for being here, and I'll talk to you on the next episode.