"Death, Sex, and Money": Talking Smart About Hard Things With Anna Sale

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2:46And honestly, they're all still more relevant than ever. You may hear details in this episode that remind you it's from another time, but I guarantee that the advice you get will be as crisp and meaningful and the stories as resonant as before. If you have a favorite episode of the show, let me know. I'd love to air it again or even re-record it for you fresh. Enjoy this classic Anxious Achiever episode.

3:21A lot of the conversations I have in my own life and the conversations I have on the show aren't easy because talking about mental health involves diving into a whole lot of stigma, guilt, shame, frustration, vulnerability. It comes from the person experiencing the issue and those around them, whether they're family, friends, or colleagues. Well, today's guest is someone who loves these kinds of conversations, and I was excited to grill her a bit as well to learn about her sources of shame, vulnerability, and taboo. Anna Sale is the host of the podcast Death, Sex, and Money, a role she's had for years after being a political reporter in public radio.

4:06Throughout the life of the show, she's also had children, moved across the country, gone through many ups and downs, and written a recent book. here's my conversation with the wonderful Anna Sale about life work and taboo the first thing I just wanted to ask is um have you always liked talking about things that other people don't like where does this come from you know people have asked me that and I'm like it's it's made me feel

4:35Anna Sale: like I'm an alien I'm like huh am I like how out of the ordinary am I um I don't think of my My personality is one that's like particularly drawn to tough things or hard things. But what I do really get fed by is that feeling when you like really lock into a conversation with someone. Yeah. So, you know, I think that often when that's happening, it's because between you and another person, something is being shared that is a little out of the ordinary. That's a little bit more deep. And I, yeah, I love that. That is like what I live for. Yeah. I mean, I only ask not to, I didn't make you, I didn't want to make you feel defensive.

5:17I, I think it's amazing. I am the same way. And, um, I don't really do small talk. I'm extremely introverted and extremely socially anxious, but I do find that people end up telling me things that they don't tell other people because I just, I used to think it was because I was on the internet for so many years and I was a blogger, but like, I don't have filters that other people do in a way. Like I'll just ask people things because I really want to know and I want to connect and I love hearing people's stories. And, and I listened to your show and I think, oh my gosh, I wonder what Anna's like at a cocktail party.

5:55Anna Sale: I'm like the same way. It's yeah. Yeah. I'm like in the corner with someone who I've like had an interesting exchange with. And then we just keep digging in together. Yeah. Have you ever gotten the feedback? So, so I have, I did get the feedback once that it was a lot. Someone was like, you know, it's sometimes it's just a lot. Okay. Like sometimes we just want to talk about like reality TV. And I was like, okay, okay. I get that. Um, have I, I, I get the feedback of like, um, it's most often comes from my husband and it's like, uh, and, and his feedback is when we're hosting, it's like, Anna, I need you to not like go into that tunnel of focus that you go into because I need your help, like making sure people's wine glasses are filled up.

6:42Anna Sale: Because the chicken's burning. Exactly. And I'm like, oh, yeah. But to me, like the reason you have people over is to have that kind of conversation. Do you consider yourself particularly introverted or extroverted? You know, I think when I was growing up, I thought of myself as an introvert, probably because I am, when I'm with my family, which is a pretty big family, I'm not one of the lead talkers. But I think as an adult now and noticing the way I move through public spaces or, you know, random conferences where you have to walk up and talk to people, I feel pretty comfortable doing that now.

7:22Anna Sale: I think probably because being a reporter has made me strengthen that muscle. Right. I guess if you can embed with troops in Afghanistan and ask them questions, you can handle a run-of-the-mill meetup, right? I don't know. I think it's much, it's, I feel more anxious when I'm not working, because then you don't have this sort of excuse to say, I'm coming up to ask you these questions for my job. Instead, it's like, hey, you know, what brings you here, you know? Right, which I feel like is our basic human need to be liked. Yeah, I think so. Or just not feel awkward, feel at ease. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a show about work.

8:02I want to just like start out by asking you, what taboos do you think still exist in the workplace when it comes to our conversations? So much has changed in the past year. I feel like we're in the past decade, you know, So it's Pride Month right now. And, you know, every corporation is draped in a rainbow flag. And things have really changed in terms of taboo. And yet there must be things that are extremely taboo to talk about at work still. What are some of those?

8:34Anna Sale: I mean, I think about this a lot because I think certainly it very much depends on the context of your particular workplace. You know, I think about with my team, which is primarily women. um, some of us are parents, uh, like we just, especially in the last year, but even before then, when, you know, we were cycling on and off parental leave as, as some of us got pregnant, I really appreciate on my team and in work, my work environment that, that it's not taboo to talk about the other pressures and things we have to deal with as parents and as people who live in homes and have obligations outside of our work.

9:15Anna Sale: And I think that that's really encouraging, just for a lot of workplaces, the idea of like being able to time shift to do work when you can get it done, you know, which I think the pandemic forced for a lot of workers who weren't able to keep going into the office. So that's one thing I was that made me think about another thing that's taboo, I think is, you know, I do think like, you know, certainly there's companies that have gone through, you know, taken the approach of extreme salary transparency, whether it's like, you know, startup tech company, or, you know, my husband works for a public institution, and you've long been able to look up salaries of people who work for state government.

9:56Anna Sale: But I do think outside of those contexts, you know, figuring out how to talk about compensation and asking for raises. And, you know, I notice in my own workplace, like people have a lot of different styles that are so just interesting to observe based on how they grew up around money, how they feel about money, how they feel about like whether it's honorable or a little like gross to be really aggressive about asking for raises. I think that's just really interesting to observe and to talk about with my co-workers and colleagues. I agree. I do think that money is something that makes us extremely anxious.

10:38And yet it's not supposed to be taboo to talk about at work because we're all there to earn a living. Right. It's a weird combination.

10:44Anna Sale: Right. It's like we have to talk about money, but we don't really want to. So let's get into money for a little bit, if you don't mind. I have to start with a moment that you had recently. You replayed it on your show, Death, Sex and Money, where you spoke with Sally Krawcheck, who is a famous Wall Street. She was an analyst. She got famously fired. She has become sort of a financial feminist. Right. She speaks a lot. She's very public. And you and she had such an interesting, really uncomfortable exchange. change. And I thought, oh my God, if Sally Krawcheck, whose whole mission is like women need to earn more money, it gets bristly talking about this stuff.

11:31What hope is there for the rest of us? Because I think that there's a lot of shame for people around money, whether they either feel they earn not enough, too much, or they don't deserve it. Right? Like what's the role of shame that you see.

11:44Anna Sale: Well, I, I love that moment on the show because you, you can hear her get really agitated and irritated and pissed off at me. You can't, and she is a smooth cookie. I mean, I have seen her speak many times and I've interviewed her, like she is polished. She's got that thing going on and she just like, yeah, she got mad. And I think what's so interesting to me about it. Like I really, I think she's such an interesting, you know, talk about somebody who Like, you know, she was not surrounded by women who were getting to the highest rankings ranks of the banking industry when she was coming up. So she has I have a lot of admiration for for how she has has built her career.

12:23Anna Sale: And the moment where she got uncomfortable was I was asking her about the context of being a woman who has made a lot of money, talking to an audience, a broader audience of women about how to manage their money. And I asked about just like if that ever feels uncomfortable, knowing that you have a lot and then you are this cheerleader for people in your audience who probably mostly have less than you do. And I think where she bristled was, I think she heard me asking, like, how dare you? And also you should feel ashamed that you have more than the people you're talking to. Because she went on to say, you know, don't you know I've lost a lot of money as well as earned a lot of money and here's how hard I worked.

13:16Anna Sale: And so I think that what that revealed was, you know, she has some ambivalence about having earned a lot of money and to have it pointed out directly felt shaming. And I certainly didn't have that intention. Like, I think it's expected that if you have a successful career in banking that you're going to earn more money than most people who work in the American economy. Um, but, uh, you know, I, I think that that's what, why it became uncomfortable because it triggered that sense of shame. And, and I think it was interesting to hear that because so often we think of money and shame as, um, coming from the other direction, which is like, I'm trying to, you know, uh, pretend that I have more than I have, or, or I have, you know, this secret debt that people don't know about and hopefully they never find out because I have, you know, a house with a two-car garage and hopefully no one ever finds out how much student debt I have, you know, that kind of thing.

14:17Anna Sale: But I think you can feel shame from so many angles, whether you have more than you need or less than you need. It was surprising to me how readily available the shame was for her. And I thought, wow, you know, this woman who is wealthy and who stands for women actually making a lot of money and talking about it is conflicted about what her money means for her. So what does money mean for you? I knew you were going to do that. I am also conflicted. Let me tell you, you know, money, I am, I feel like my money personality is, if I'm going to have anxiety about anything, it's most often going to show up first around finances.

14:59Anna Sale: And that's, you know, everything from like in the middle of the night going to sleep in Berkeley and thinking about, oh, my gosh, if there's an earthquake in the middle of the night and our house falls down, like how quickly would we have to declare personal bankruptcy? Like that kind of worry. Or, you know, oh, my gosh, like what is it going to be like when I have to pay for child care for two kids and not just one? you know that that's that's where I go and at the same time even as I'm like you know that worry the thing that like helps soothe that that anxiety is when I remind myself like Anna you've you've done some planning you're you've got savings you and you know that it's going to be expensive to have child care and then you're going to have a kid in public school like I try have to talk myself down but then I have a whole other set of feelings about like who do I think I am to be earning as much money as I have as a podcast host, you know, and that that's very rooted in growing up in West Virginia, where, you know, there's, there's just this feeling of like, what do you do for work?

16:06And you're making how much money, you know, because I, Is that a real job? I get that too.

16:13Anna Sale: And I think it's also really interesting in media, because I started out in local newsrooms, you know, in West Virginia, where like, you do not go into newspaper reporting or public radio reporting to, to be an earner in your household. And, you know, media can begin to look different when you move into places like New York City or Washington or the Bay Area. But so I feel, you know, I have to kind of, I have all those sets of feelings around success and whether I should give all my money away because it's because other people need it. You know, those those questions. Right. Or you're gonna or you're gonna end up, you know, on the street because of the earthquake.

16:56Anna Sale: Right. So it's, it's both I, I tell myself, you need to hoard every single cent that you make so you can be safe. And also, you should be giving your money away to be honorable, which is a, you know, quite a quite a mix to be carrying around 100%. Is is does the voice sound like anyone that's in your head, your money, your money anxiety voice? I love that question because I talked to my therapist about this and she, it's really good. I didn't, I'd never done this before I met this therapist and she was like, let's just like spend some time with, with that voice. Like what she sound like and what does she say?

17:30Anna Sale: And I think she's really, I picture her like having like a, holding like a ruler in her hand and like slapping it on, on the, you know, the, the, the palm of her hand, like really being, yeah, she's mean and she's strict and she really believes there's a right and wrong way. Um, which like something that has, I have needed to remind myself that has given me great comfort is like, there's not one right way to do your money. Um, and the, the things that I, you know, the beliefs that are based on that are very culturally specific and very class specific and very like, you know, there's a lot of ways.

18:08Anna Sale: I am helped by learning from other people about how they think about money and how they think about sharing and how they think about where they are in their lives and the risks that they take when. That's been comforting to me. I have a new driver in my family. And as an anxious person, who boy, is it testing me? And that's why I love Hey Polo. Hey Polo is the family safety app built on trust. I want to know if my teen has arrived safely. I want to know if he's speeding or driving safely on the road. And Hey Polo lets me do all that. Let's me check in with my family members and make sure we're in touch in the way that we want to be.

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22:36That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. You actually opened my eyes in your book. I'm going to blank on the name of the writer and psychologist who coined the four different money.

22:53Anna Sale: Oh, Brad Klontz. Money styles. Yes. Okay. So Brad Klontz, I can't believe I missed this in all my obsessive researching about money, money and emotions, but, uh, you spoke about, uh, four different personalities and the one that went ding, ding for me was, was being vigilant, like sort of hyper vigilant around your money, knowing where every dollar is. And sort of like, did I get that earthquake insurance plan? And if not, I better write it down right now and call them at 8am. Like, is that, is that you? Oh yes. We share that. So fun. So fun. Yeah. And I think the thing that's such an illusion based on that is like, I mean, anxious achiever, most anxious achievers are probably money vigilant, I would say, because it fits in with this life paradigm, which is like, if I worry about this enough, that means I'm being responsible, which means I'm going to be safe.

23:51I can absolutely worry it away. Yeah. Defensive pessimism. yes exactly is that how you roll like like if you just sort of plan enough well that's that's my

24:07Anna Sale: natural state of being if I weren't helped by other people um I have I have really like this is a way I hope I'm continuing to grow in my marriage to my husband Arthur because what he will say to the defensive, pessimistic part of me is like, Anna, like, why are you taking all the fun out of this? You know? Yeah. And it's like, oh, that is a consequence of really digging into this particular worldview is like, you don't make a lot of space for joy, you know, and for celebrating possibility because instead you're coming up with contingency plans, you know? So I want to ask a little bit about negotiating.

24:54You do a lot of different projects and I would imagine that you have to negotiate with various entities who are paying you for various pieces of your work, right? Whether it's a book or content or speaking. I'm curious what kind of a negotiator you consider yourself and what you've learned about negotiating now that you know how money sort of can trigger you. Oh, that's good.

25:22Anna Sale: I mean, I think of money coming up in my life in two really specific ways. There's, you know, I have worked for companies for all of my journalism career. So it's like negotiating in the context of these long employment relationships is one set of negotiations. And that's, that's can be tricky because if you know that you are going to have a relationship after you figure out what the money arrangement is going to be, you are managing, you know, I hope they think that I'm still cool after I ask for all that I want. Right. And then there's the other context of like sort of the one off thing. And let me do the one off first.

26:01Anna Sale: Like I will say, if you are someone who it's part of your job to reach out to people to ask for them to come to some to an event you're throwing or to do some sort of service for you. I so appreciate and it it it happens so rarely that I think I find it shocking I so appreciate when in that first initial ask when there is some acknowledgement of compensation being involved or not yes and whether it's you know even if it's like a you know a small non-profit to just say like we know your time is valuable and we can't you know so it would be but it would be you know know, we can offer you a modest honorary and blah, blah, blah, blah, and then go on.

26:45Anna Sale: Because it just gives the person who's receiving the ask like a way in and not because otherwise, I will tell you when I get that email, that's like, hey, we would love to have you come do this thing. The event is here and here and here. Please let us know. We can tell you more. Like, why are you putting me in the position of having to gather the emotional energy of saying like, hi, I have two kids, so I don't travel unless it's paid. Let's talk about it. You know, like, Like, it's like we all know that these are transactions, you know, and part of part and it doesn't always have to be a super, you know, it's financial transaction, but there's a transaction of energy, a transaction of labor.

27:19Anna Sale: Like, so let's acknowledge it. And I have found one one secret that I have now used, as I just said, is like being a parent really helps you be really direct about what you will and won't do, because you can be really clear about the value of your time. and especially if it involves travel and blame it on your children. Oh, that's it. But okay, but let me push you. If you were a corporate lawyer, would you do that? If I were a corporate lawyer. Because you have a little bit of, you know, you're your own brand. I guess, well, you know what? I think of that in terms of like if it's something that's beyond what my work is.

27:57Anna Sale: Like if you're asking me to do something that's like. Extracurricular, right? Yeah, exactly. So if I were a corporate lawyer and I was negotiating a billable hour situation and I probably wouldn't blame my children that, you know, I need to pay for college. So you need to pay me a thousand dollars an hour instead of 500. Maybe. Fine. But if like, if like the woman's bar association said, can you come to California and give a talk? Yeah. Then you might say, yeah, yeah. You know what? I can, but here's my rate to leave the state and fly five hours or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's, I think that that's, I don't know.

28:34Anna Sale: Corporate lawyers who are listening, you know, I understand that different work industries have very different cultures around what's acceptable for people to acknowledge as far as family commitments. But I think that's totally reasonable, you know, especially if like, you're gonna have to be gone overnight, and you're gonna have to pay for a babysitter, or, you know, that sort of thing. Like, so that's one way. I mean, the other thing that I have found, I really love, and I should have done this earlier, is like as soon as soon as you start getting requests for doing things that are above and beyond what your regular work duties are, it's really helpful to just ask somebody to help you deal with requests so that they can be the person who's like, here's how this works.

29:18Anna Sale: You know, here's here's what the budget will be. I find that really helpful because it does take so much emotional energy to be like, what are the words I'm going to choose for this email so that they understand that I'm grateful that they reached out and thought of me, but also et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I had a friend, a colleague who's a much more successful journalist than me. He told me he got really good advice at one point, which was like, you know, I know that feeling you have when somebody emails you and asks you to do something that sounds exciting in the moment and you're excited they thought of you.

29:53Anna Sale: He's like, a really good test is to like quickly move to the question, if this were tomorrow night, would I be excited to do this? Or would I feel exhausted by the prospect? And that's a really good, that's a really good, like framing for me, because then it's like, oh, if I would be, if I'm really exhausted by the prospect, then I'm going to say, okay, I'm interested in this, but here's how much you have to pay me. So at least I'm going to get some money out of it.

30:24I think that is great. I think that's great advice for anybody, right? Who gets excited and flattered in the moment as we all do, right? And, but may not be realistic about their boundaries. So I want to close out by asking you to give some advice to some of our listeners who might be just starting out in their careers. I've been getting questions recently from younger anxious achievers. And let's start with the lens of money. what do you wish you had known about your money story and how it would affect what you ask for at work when you were starting out and what advice could you give to people I think I uh

31:05Anna Sale: part of being an anxious achiever for me uh meant that I never it took a lot of work to learn to think about what my wildest dreams could be or to like give myself space for that you know I think the way that I thought about money is always very like, you know, okay, here was my salary when I'm 24 and maybe I'll get a 3 % raise, you know, 25, 26. So then I'll be earning this when I'm 30. Like, like this idea that somehow you can like really project forward really far. Like, I find that that's not really how money works. Because, you know, in a field like mine, like podcasting wasn't a career path when I was starting out in radio.

31:59Anna Sale: So I had no possibility like there's impossible to think about what I would be doing when I was 40 when I was starting in radio at 24. You know, I do feel really proud of my 23 and 24 year old self that like starting from the very first job offers that I got, I would always ask for, you know, a couple thousand dollars more than they initially offered. And that's great. Got it. You know, and I remember like like when you're first in the workforce and you realize like, shoot, like my moment of leverage was right before I said yes. And now I have zero leverage. And I'm stuck. Yeah. And just like really thinking about that leverage idea is an important one for thinking about your money life.

32:48Anna Sale: And that sounds, I think that can sound like mercenary and weird. But like the fact is like we all work in markets. So the leverage you have is like can be about like reminding your employer what value you're bringing to the company. You know, it can be making sure that you are staying connected with people who work in your field who don't work for your company, just so you're aware of how things are changing and what the market, you know, is looking like. But I think that's that's really important. And then when you have that conversation where you do have leverage, like there's a way I I've been kind of like, like, I've had some really positive experiences where I'm talking about, you know, here's, here's, here's what this could look like with with a boss.

33:42Anna Sale: And like, and, and when you do talk about when you can find a way to have an honest exchange about like, here's what I'm thinking about what I'd like and what my, you know, financial and creative needs are over the next three years, like, tell me about what your vision is for my unit or my, you know, how you'd like the company to grow and how can those two work together? You know, you can have really collaborative conversations in the context of a negotiation that feel actually like fun because you're building something together. It doesn't have to have that sort of like gross adversarial feel all the time.

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37:01If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to shopify.com slash anxiousachiever and start your free trial. So shopify.com slash anxiousachiever to hear your first. You know, the other day I was talking with my friend who is both certified financial planner and a financial therapist. We were talking about money and emotions. Money is way more than dollars and cents. It's emotional, right? And I'm trying to teach my kids to have healthier emotions around money than I did. But I'm getting better every year. And part of it is that I use Monarch. Monarch simplifies, identifies, and helps me have a plan for my money.

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38:33That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. So my last question, I want to zoom out and go back a little bit to where we began with taboo topics at work. One of the questions that is an evergreen question from listeners is, I'm really struggling. Do I tell my boss?

38:58Anna Sale: I think that's a really good question. Okay. And I think it's like, unfortunately, there's not one answer. Right. Because it depends on the boss. It depends on the context. It depends on your level of flexibility in your particular workplace. And, you know, I find it's like, I think it's helpful to have a lot of conversations with maybe people you trust, like, you know, whether it's a partner or a friend or a family member, and then maybe a colleague or a coworker before you have that conversation with your boss. Because I do think that it's what I really love in talking to people who I find really interesting when I'm talking to people who are more early career is like, it's really fun to brainstorm with them about like where they're feeling itchy you know and so if it can be in that context of like um you know you you sort of have those early conversations with people who aren't your boss so you can figure out what's agitation and irritation and burnout and like and what actually is like the places where I am hungry to grow you know and then when you have the conversation with the boss, you can say something like, you know, I'm noticing like, you know, I kind of feel like I, I would like to try something, try doing something in this way instead of this way.

40:30Anna Sale: Like, and I, I thought about like, you can sort of like bring it where it's like, what do you think about this idea? Because I think often, and I do this with our managers and employers and bosses, it's very easy to replicate a parental relationship where you're just like, God, yes, I hate my life, please fix it. Or like, stop telling me what to do. I, you know, like, and like, if you're a boss, you're like, okay, what should I do with this information? You know, and, and I get it. Because that's like, I do that. But, but like, you know, think about it from the manager's point of view, which is like, what is the thing that I can do that is going to be a next step after this conversation.

41:12Anna Sale: So if you come to that conversation with your boss, with even if it's like a harebrained idea that you never think they'll say yes to, like, you know, I work in journalism. So I think in like story pitches, like I was, when I first got together with my husband, who's like, he just has like a more, I don't know. He's just a little bit more open at brainstorming. I'm like such a rule follower. were. And like, I think so I can be, it can be really small in the way I think, because I immediately think in logistics and he'll be like, well, what's your objective here? You want to do more of this? Like, let's talk about it.

41:50Anna Sale: So I was really helped. Like when we first got together where he was like, okay, sounds like you're like burned out by going into the newsroom every day. Like, what if you think about a story series where you would have to do a road trip and interview these types of people? And I was like, can I ask for that? And he's like, well, how much would it cost? And I'm like, huh, it would be super cheap because I would stay at like really cheap hotels. And like, it would be, you know, like I could pitch something that's like a$2 ,000 budget for me to get to be on the road for two weeks talking to voters.

42:21Anna Sale: And then they said yes. And I was like, what? You know, like, oh, that's so cool. Like, I never would have given myself permission to fathom that kind of pitch, you know? And then if that's, you know, say you pitch something to your boss and they say, sorry, that's not a possibility. We need you to do these certain things. Then you have an answer about their ability to like help you grow. And like you want to be in a position where you're going to grow or you want to start thinking about where else could I grow? And if the question you have is, I'm in a bad place emotionally, I'm in a mental health crisis, and you're scared to tell them, what's your advice there?

43:05Anna Sale: I mean, that's a really interesting question about taboo because at once the culture is changing in really positive ways where there's a much deeper understanding about how mental health is health. and just like you need to get surgery when your body needs surgery, sometimes you need help to take care of your mental health. At the same time, I think it also is tricky because you have to figure out if your boss is someone who, you know, who is going to deliver a penalty for this down the line somehow. You know, I hate to say that, but I think that's probably something to be aware of. And if you do realize like, oh, I don't think I can tell my boss that I'm struggling in these ways.

43:52Anna Sale: Again, it tells you something about the work environment that you're working in, about whether your whole self is welcome. and you know but I do think I don't know I think it's about like if you're struggling with your mental health I think it's about again talking to people in your life talking to medical professionals like looking at what kind of resources and help your company does offer if they offer any like I know my company offers certain number of employee assistance you know calls, like kind of look at the toolbox of resources that are available to you. And then if it if it still feels like, you know, I need to I need something beyond taking time off and taking care of myself away from work, but I need my work to know that I need medical leave, you know, then then you have to take that step.

44:47Anna Sale: Like I was talking to a friend recently who was had had a real mental health crisis a few months ago and she was struggling with the decision of whether to leave this job that she really loved, but wasn't paying her enough. And I just, and she was like, yeah, but I might go into credit card debt if I leave this job and if I stay at this job because of how, and I was like, well, let's just remember, like, you need to take care of yourself. And if this is making you feel happy, like it won't matter if you have credit card debt, if you were, if you're in a really dangerous place, you know, like, so let's prioritize things like credit card debt is not the worst thing.

45:23Anna Sale: So I think we all need to take seriously, especially now when there's just been so many stresses in our culture and each of our lives individually, like you have to take care of your safety first and foremost, because money doesn't matter if you are not safe. Anna, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and your work. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for your work.

45:52That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Maura Aarons-Mele. Lots more to come in the next episode. Thank you.