Depression Can Be So Funny, With John Moe

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0:42There's a business book that you really need right now, and it's called Life at the Speed of Play. Launch Products People Love by Mark Pincus. He's an entrepreneur's entrepreneur, known in Silicon Valley as one of the most prolific idea generators. I guarantee you've played one of the games that he has invented. And he's going to give you his book, two for the price of one. If you go to getmarksbook.com slash anxious, he will send you a second copy for free. If you're thinking about starting an online business, launch before Black Friday, a time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

1:20If you're ready to launch before Black Friday, just go to Shopify.com slash anxiousachiever and start your free trial. I like figuring stuff out with other people, and that's why I like Notion. Notion is the AI workspace where your team's knowledge, projects, and agents all come together in one place. Teams using Notion move faster, and they cut friction and cost by consolidating tools, and they stay aligned. But Notion is really good for people because you know what? You put your idea down, you put your rough draft down in Notion, your colleague can access it, hash it out, give feedback, and it's all there and organized.

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2:51You may hear details in this episode that remind you it's from another time, but I guarantee that the advice you get will be as crisp and meaningful and the stories as resonant as before. If you have a favorite episode of the show, let me know. I'd love to air it again or even re-record it for you fresh. Enjoy this classic Anxious Achiever episode.

3:21Today, we're going to talk about depression, not anxiety. But as my guest John Moe says, depression and anxiety, well, they're like Hall and Oates. You rarely see one without the other, and neither manage to have a successful solo career. Sorry for the 80s pop music reference. The 80s are very in now, though, at least according to my kids. Depression can have really distinct characteristics from anxiety and can have a much different effect on our work lives. For me, depression is very demotivating, and my work tends to suffer, whereas when I'm anxious, I'm a wreck, but I'm also often sort of hyper-functional.

3:59But depression and anxiety definitely share at least two characteristics that we'll talk about today, both of which can really mess with your head and your career. Magical thinking and unreliable narrators. You know them. John Moe calls magical thinking the if-onlys. If only I could achieve X, have Y, do this, then I'd be happy. And then there are the tapes of negative self-talk that can run on repeat in your head. I'm a failure and I don't deserve anything. And we'll talk about managing disruptive and uncomfortable change when you struggle with these kinds of mental health issues. Because John Moe hosted one of the most popular and well-loved public radio podcasts, The Hilarious World of Depression.

4:44He wrote a book called that too. Moe has had a long and storied career in public radio. And yet, even with his reach and his fame and his celebrity guests and a growing community of people worldwide who care about mental health and talk about it, his show was canceled and he was laid off. So we'll hear about how he approached that change and others with humor and openness. Yes. First of all, you're the only other person I've ever interviewed who has a podcast on mental health and who who seems to sort of love to dwell in the ridiculousness and gallows humor of it all. And I've admired you for a really long time.

5:30And so it's it's just really good to talk to you. Well, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's always been the language I spoke. So I just translated it to the show as well. Did people give you an attitude when you decided to make this very serious topic funny and poke fun at it? I got a lot of skepticism from people, especially when the name came out of the hilarious world of depression, which was originally kind of an exercise in thinking of the worst possible name for a podcast that I could. to kind of test my boss to see if he really wanted to go through with making a pilot of this thing. But yeah, I got some pushback right away from people saying kind of the obvious retort, like the logical retort is there's nothing funny about depression.

6:23And so it was the idea of the show, the idea later of the book and the idea of kind of this whole proposition I'm setting forward is meant to be audacious. It's meant to be kind of brazen. But to me, the humor is just a different way of understanding something. It's a way of seeing the same thing from a new angle and a new perspective. And that's what I've always done. So that made a lot of sense to me. Well, so, you know, I'm an anxiety person. I definitely have had bouts of clinical depression. and it visits, but anxiety is my traveling companion, which I want to hear about your relationship with anxiety.

7:10It's not something you talk about. Do you have, do you, are you lucky enough that you have both clinical depression and clinical anxiety disorders or, or is anxiety not really your thing? I often say that they're the hollow notes of mental illness because you can rarely find one without the other. And they don't have very famous solo careers. Yeah, I've had anxiety, different levels of anxiety that have that have proven to be obstacles, but but not really rising to the level of disorder. But yeah, it's absolutely there. One of the guests I had on said that depression is your fear of the past and anxiety is your fear of the future.

7:54And then you just have to try to, you know, shorten those and get into the moment as much as you possibly can. I was also reflecting because, you know, this is this is a business show and, and anxiety is kind of great sometimes when you're an overachiever, because although it may shorten your lifespan and ruin your cortisol and your relationships, like, it's really, aside from that, it can really make you hyper effective at work. Like I always say that my hyper vigilance is really the key to my success because I'm just constantly like making sure everything is happening all the time. But depression is different.

8:35Depression is kind of like a stoppage when it comes to the drive. Can you talk about that? Well, I mean, I think if you're vigilant and, and you credit your success to that, then I think you're not really hypervigilant. I don't think you have a problem at that point. I mean, I know people with anxiety issues who can't leave the house and who find every day to be unbearable and are wracked with mortal fear at all times. And that's a distinction. I find myself talking about the disorder part of it a lot because if things are working and you're functioning, then maybe you're okay. It's like during COVID, people are saying, well, I'm depressed about what's happening with COVID.

9:25And I said, well, really? What are you feeling? Well, I'm just down a lot. I'm really scared. I'm really worried something might happen. And I always say, well, of course you are, because that's the proper healthy response. You're actually healthy. You're going through terrible times, but you're, you know, you're not deciding to, you know, move out to the ocean. And you're not, I mean, there's a lot of things you're not doing that would indicate a disorder. In terms of depression in the workplace, I found that a creative place to work and a creative job to have is really a benefit because, Because I mean, honestly, there's somebody asked me the other day, well, what if you had never had depression?

10:12What do you think it would be like now? And I said, well, I'm sure things would be easier. But I don't think I think I'd be very reluctant to give up the wisdom that I've earned from it. And the ability to see things from multiple points of view, to be able to see things, to see the trouble in things, to see the warning signs that I think a lot of people miss. And so I feel wiser for having gone through it. I mean, my depression is mostly a dysthymic depression, which is sort of a low grade rumble that continues all the time. And I've mostly been able to keep it under control. I found good therapy.

10:57I found good meds. I learned a lot. I got very curious and buried myself in research. So, you know, I want to caution that I'm doing fine. But, you know, some people who can't predict how they're going to wake up the next day, that's going to be really complicated. If you have a nine o 'clock meeting and you can't get out of the house because of depression, because of anxiety, I didn't see the movie Joker because I thought it would just make me sad. But I'm told there's a line that Joaquin Phoenix says in that movie, which is the worst part about having a mental illness is everybody wanting you to pretend that you don't.

11:40You know, so you just have to go through the day like they do, but you just have to kind of put on an act. I don't really think of my depression as a disability. I see it as a thing in my life that I need to manage, no different than someone with diabetes needs to keep an eye on their insulin. you say that but in your writing in your book and and and I think this is a very common experience for people who who have sort of that dysthymic chronic depression is that you always feel like you're a failure a loser you're about to get kicked out of whatever good thing ever happens to you so you say that it it makes you who you are but how can you be a success when you always feel like a failure inside?

12:31Well, if you're looking to external factors to validate who you are as a person, you're going to come up short. You know, if you're always looking for the promotion, the achievement, the new job, the new car, the more money, whatever it is, more higher salary, there's so many, I could fill several books with stories on people who've been led astray by that. And you talk about the if only or the sort of like, when I have X, Y and Z, it's like this magical thinking of depression, you know, that when I get that promotion, I won't feel this way anymore. I have a new driver in my family. And as an anxious person, who boy is it testing me.

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17:17You can write your own money story with Monarch. Use the code achiever at monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch Core at half off, just$50. dollars. That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. Right. And so, you know, I think that I think a big part of it, though, is spotting that as the distortion that it is and saying, okay, this isn't, you know, here's what I'm feeling. And because I am who I am, I have to stop, I have to examine this, I have to see if this adds up with logic. And then I have to address that going forward. It's much more conscious process than somebody without depression.

17:57And so it's, it's checking back in and saying, okay, performance and achievement doesn't really match, you know, the, the path to happiness, but becoming who I am as a person and saying, okay, I do have intrinsic value. I do deserve love and kindness and healthcare and everything else that, that a human is entitled to. Um, then, then that's where you dig your way out of it, not by trying to achieve yet more. And even since the book came out, I have a couple of friends who are athletes, professional athletes. I was talking to Sean Doolittle, who's a pitcher for the Washington Nationals. And, you know, he thought, well, if I could just make an all-star team, then clearly I'm of value as a person.

18:45And then that came and went and he's like, maybe it's two all-star teams. And then he got a second all-star appearance. He's like, I bet I need to, to win the world series. And then last fall, he won the world series. And it, you know, and he's like, at that point, I just said, this is wrong. This is what, this isn't what's doing it because he was, he was caught in that cycle. And it's, I mean, it's so common and, and somebody like that should be, should be held up as an example to everybody. Like, look, stop trying to achieve your way out of this. Here's Sean. Here's what he learned. Right. I mean, you say that you say it can come for anyone.

19:24The thing about depression, it doesn't care about your career or your big bank account. It just wants to you say it just wants to kill you. And and I think that that it's really important. I mean, God, if you win the World Series and you still have that pit inside you. Yeah. But but I want to go back to the piece about the unreliable narrator. Right. Because I think that a common thread among people who live with chronic depression and anxiety is that they are constantly having a struggle with the unreliable narrator that is their mental illness who's telling them either A, if you only win the World Series, you'll feel great, or also you suck, you don't deserve this.

20:05What is your process for getting past your own unreliable narrator and trying to get to the logic and the reality? Well, for me, a few things have kind of led to some breakthroughs. And I caution whenever I talk about this stuff that my process will be different than everybody else's process as theirs will be from each other. It's an individual journey. I'd make a terrible cult leader. I don't ascribe to the one single philosophy that will lead you to redemption. That said, for me, it began with getting into good therapy with a therapist I really clicked with, and then getting an inventory of what those common distortions are.

20:47Like you say, magical thinking, black and white thinking, catastrophizing, fortune telling, all these things. Spotting when I was doing that and learning how to put on the brakes. I couldn't have done that by myself, just like I couldn't perform a kidney transplant on myself. It took someone standing outside to help me see that. And so that was a big breakthrough. And also kind of there's the phrase depression lies is probably familiar to a lot of people. It does lie. And, you know, it's your own brain. I get it. Depression isn't an actual ghost. But I think a lot of people don't give credit for how clever the lies are and how good depression is at lying.

21:30because it's probably been with you longer than than anything else. It's in a way your most intimate relationship. I always say that about. Yeah. Yeah. And it and it knows you so well, it can masquerade as your own thoughts. Right. And so it can it does a dead on impression of you when it's when it's telling you, you suck or you need to achieve this. Or if you could do this, then then everything else will go OK, whatever it is that you're that you're going through. And so kind of giving it credit, a big part of cognitive behavioral therapy, which has been really successful for a lot of people I know with depression, some it hasn't worked for, but a lot of them it has, is knowing where those distortions are coming from and knowing why you do that kind of thing.

22:19Like, like, it's not enough to just say, oh, you know, I in an uncertain situation, I always assume that I'm going to have the dumbest solution, you know, or that whatever it is, like, okay, let's let's unpack some of this stuff from your past to figure out where that is coming from. And then once you have the thought, it's not a matter of saying, oh, that's a lie. Get rid of that. Throw up the wall. That's not going to work. It's it's a matter of saying, OK, here's what I'm feeling. Here's what I'm going to sit with. Here's what I'm going to almost honor it to a certain extent, even though it can be destructive.

22:57Like, here's what this is. You know, take some breaths, fully feel it, understand where it's coming from, understand that it's a distortion. and then invite the traveler to be on its way down the road, you know, so it's, so it's not a matter of like, you're never going to feel those things again. And because they're lies and you're going to shut them out, it's just like, you're gonna, you're going to hear them, but then you just have to manage them. it sounds like you know that you've sort of successfully built distance from the thing right and that you've almost made it into it is it a character does it have a face your depression I've I've experimented with that I usually just think of it as as a force more than an anthropomorphized thing that's like I debated like do I capitalize depression in this book to capitalize the D, but I, I kept it lowercase.

23:56I mean, what it is ultimately is figuring out what is you if the depression wasn't there. And that's when, and believing in that person as a person of value, you let go of the idea that you're, that you're trash or that you're always going to be miserable or that you're, you're dumb. And you learn to say, well, okay, I'm, I'm worthwhile, you know, I'm a, I'm a human with all the rights that that entails. And, you know, feeling, feeling better about yourself from that perspective lets you see that kind of in relief compared to the, the muck all around your brain that depression is causing. So, so once that, I mean, it, it really does sound like I'm, I'm some prog rock lyrics here, but like once, once you can make that person glow a little bit more, you see all the tarnish all over and you say, Oh, okay.

24:54That's the, that's the stuff that I don't have to live with. I love that. You know, it's like when you get your kids to like excavate your own like dinosaur egg, did you ever do that? And they have to chip away at this clay. And then all of a sudden like, Oh my God, it's a dinosaur femur. right um yes i want to i want to talk a little bit about um it seems like you're sort of in an interesting inflection point like many of us you know you were you were you were laid off right is that the right term that is the right term that's the term they told me i was laid off in June with about 25 of my colleagues due to economic reasons at the public radio company I was working at.

25:43And what did old Clinny D or like the sort of the struggle to build the inherent value apart from the achievement and the security do in that situation? Well, I was sort of prepared for it because I knew that the company was, I was working for was saying that they were in a financial crisis. And so the way I approached it weeks before it happened, months before it happened was to say, okay, well, that could happen. That happens to people in a lot of jobs and in media jobs more often than most. So that's possibility. And I was, I had been worried about it. So I said, let's do some preparation for it.

26:29I started, you know, looking into some other similar places and, you know, people doing similar kind of work. I started to gather a lot of information. So I had some things in motion already. And I was also feeling about ready to leave anyway. But the big thing, and I've had shows canceled before, I haven't been laid off before, But I've had big projects I've been very dedicated to end. And because I tend to make things that a small group of people love passionately, but not something that a huge group of people just sort of likes. Me too. Yeah. Such is my lot. Such is our lot. So when it came, you know, it was it was a blow.

27:17But I also instantly said, this isn't me. I wasn't that show. And that's a mistake I've made on other projects I've worked on because I thought, well, if I just am so dedicated to it, then it'll be strong. If I just take all that is in me and give it to this show, then the show will be strong. And of course, in that process, I would always become miserable because I felt like I should always be working more. I should always be putting more of my heart into it. And, you know, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a swindle that I think a capitalist economy eventually inevitably gives people like, you know, take, take everything you have and put it into this.

28:01Right. And it's funny, you know, I just when you were saying that, I was thinking that people people with with with anxiety and depression who sort of gravitate towards getting enmeshed or being codependent are really good at that. Right. Like giving everything our all and subsuming literally ourselves. And then the blow is very we get rewarded for it for a while if it's good or if it's a hit. But then when it ends, who are we? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always took note of of who I knew who was really great to me when my projects were not going well. And then I took note of people who suddenly wanted to hang out with me when they were going well.

28:43I'm like, OK, I've got a ledger that I'm going to write this down in. But I really like I had therapy a couple of days after I got laid off and my therapist said, well, how are you doing with that news? And I said, you know, I'm waiting to be devastated, but I haven't been devastated yet. Well, I was going to ask because I have a feeling that you may have been preparing for the bottom to fall out at other times because that's what depression does, right? Like when it sort of did end, were you better prepared because of your history, do you think? Well, I think I was approaching the job differently.

29:21My career didn't depend on working at that place. and especially in media jobs, writing books and speaking and doing a podcast, you could do that a lot of places and you could also do it on your own. And I know plenty of people who have very successful careers basically doing it out of their own house. And so I'm like, okay, well, that's always an option. I could always hire myself. But for me, the bigger issue is deciding at a certain point. Like I started this podcast because I wanted to have a show because I worked at a company that made shows. So I wanted to come up with a show and mental health seemed like a good topic.

30:04In the space of the four years I did the show at that place, it became more I'm going to talk about mental health and I'm going to talk about bringing these conversations out into the open. and a podcast is part of that and where I do it as part of that, but it's not the whole thing. Like I'm going to, I'm going to talk about these issues as long as I have air in my lungs. And if it's there, fine. If it's somewhere else, fine. And so I think that's, that's sort of the, like the indirect object changed in the sentence, but that's about it. So I felt, I felt kind of okay. Gosh, that's so freeing.

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33:33Shopify.com slash anxious achiever to hear your first. You know, the other day I was talking with my friend who is both certified financial planner and a financial therapist. We were talking about money and emotions. Money is way more than dollars and sense. It's emotional, right? And I'm trying to teach my kids to have healthier emotions around money than I did. But I'm getting better every year. And part of it is that I use Monarch. Monarch simplifies, identifies, and helps me have a plan for my money. Monarch is like having a financial advisor in your pocket. It has easy to read diagrams that help me visualize exactly where my money goes each month.

34:23And it has investment views so I can compare my portfolio, say to how the S &P is doing. All kinds of great tools that help me frankly take some of the emotions out of money and make it more practical and working for me. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent, but Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases, and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can write your own money story with Monarch. Use the code achiever at monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch Core at half off just$50. That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever.

35:04So another question I have, which is, you know, now that you're sort of a famous professional sad person, as you call yourself. You're a pro. Yeah, I went pro. Do you still? I was so good at being depressed that I went up to the major leagues. Do you still have to perform normalcy? Like, like a feeling for me when I'm in a depression is that I can't talk to strangers. I can't have small talk. I'm bad at small talk anyway. But like when I'm depressed, I can't even pretend to care or smile. And I think that's hard. Like when I go pick up my kids and I'm depressed and they're like, their other moms are like, who is the mother who looks who's sitting in the car scowling at everyone, but it's because I'm depressed.

35:45I cannot. But, but, but now like, do you have, do you have the right to not perform being okay when you're not? Like, how has that changed for you? Like in interacting with, with other people? Yeah. I'm just curious. Like if you reach a certain level of going pro as a depressed person? Like, can you say, I'm feeling really depressed today. I don't think I can do this meeting. Or how do you handle that? Well, I mean, it's sort of like everybody's already seen me naked. Like it's, it's all, it's all out there already. So I kind of can't go back. I'm naturally kind of an introvert. And like, yeah, the, the small talk conversation, I used to do a stage variety show at the Fitzgerald Theater in St.

36:35Paul, thousand seat auditorium, every show was sold out. And then we wanted to keep it really human and connected to the audience. So I would go out and say hi to the audience in the lobby afterwards. That was the part I dreaded most. Like being on stage in front of a thousand people, telling a joke, singing a song, whatever it was, that was fine. Like my heart rate was low, but getting out in front of those people. And so I think lately I've just found a lower gear that I'm more comfortable in. And I'm not compelled to impress people. I'm not compelled to entertain people. You know, I still like jokes.

37:16It's a way of talking for me. So I'll still make the jokes. But in general, like since since really writing down all that I've been through, you know, with my experiences, with my health, with my family and just knowing that and accepting and finding the self value through it all, I'm just a lot more relaxed. And frankly, too, like since I got laid off, since I left the place I was working, my wife says, oh, you seem happier. You seem you smile more. You're you're calmer and you're better looking. And so, you know, if your spouse says you're better looking, then obviously the right thing has happened.

38:02what's your advice for someone's who's doesn't have the the beauty of being a professional sad person and and sort of is starting out in their career and might be feeling depressed but but has to show up at that meeting has to go to that you know networking happy hour with their boss do you have any tips about just getting through it boy um i thought you're gonna say what's your advice for people who aren't as good looking as you. I'd love to hear that too. You know, I just, I don't know. I mean, in that situation, I think it's never a bad idea to return to who you are in a quiet way. You know, like if you're going out there trying to impress, trying to dazzle in order to cover up something that is missing in yourself, I think you're really setting yourself up to to fall on your face.

39:00I think sometimes in some meetings and in some situations in any job, you do need to dazzle. Like if you need to sell people on an idea, you know, prepare to perform. Right. But if it's coming from a place of trying to compensate for some other pain, then I think that's a problem because it's really not going to be you doing it. But, you know, the big thing is really, though, if you're feeling rotten and it's getting in the way of things, go get help. Just go get help. And I know in our health care system, being what it is, you're like, oh, I'm going to get some help. I better call a psychiatrist.

39:40So you work up the nerve and you call the psychiatrist and they say, great, we can see you in nine months. And you're thinking, but I'm crazy now. I need help right away. I'm not going to last that long. And yeah. But yeah, and so if you can't get into the psychiatrist or the therapist, go to a family doctor, go to a general practitioner who can at least help you in that moment and maybe set you on a course that you're going to have to travel, but to feel better. Because if you're not functioning like you feel you ought to, you can feel better. And that's something that I, it took me till like age 50 to realize that.

40:20I'm 52 now because it's another thing that depression gets so deep in. I got through two seasons of making my show before I really allowed myself to believe that because I just thought, well, I'm not getting worse. So that's as good as I can do, which is a distortion and a lie depression was telling me so convincingly that I, by then, somewhat of an expert on depression, couldn't even spot. So, I mean, it's a thing I evangelize now. Like you can feel better if you're if you're roughed up, you can feel better than than you are. It doesn't mean you're going to be happy all the time. You wouldn't want that anyway.

41:01But it just means you can be better than than where you're at. When you when you did your show, you interviewed professional dazzlers. Yeah. You talk to people whose whole livelihood was commanding attention and holding a room and being a star. And yet they were all depressed. What did you learn about how they compartmentalize or how they manage their mental illness through their work and through what they love to do? I think for a lot of them, the work that they were doing was almost a way of talking to the depression and communicating with it and trying to not so much solve it with what they do, but to kind of work with what they had.

41:52I'm always very interested and I have a lot of friends in these jobs. I'm really interested in comedians and musicians and songwriters. And I think what they do is they speak from a sincere and kind of beautiful place, even if it is about pain, a kind of honest place that connects with people on some kind of level that, you know, a textbook about chronic major depressive disorder really wouldn't. And so the people I talk to who are dazzlers, you know, who have the room in the palm of their hand, they're doing that because they love it. You know, and it's it's from a really sincere place. It's not really from a, I'm looking for validation in this capacity, because I think those people don't tend to become very successful.

42:45And, you know, there's plenty of successful people who do that and plenty of unsuccessful people who try the more honest and direct route. But the ones who are trying to solve it through performing, you know, I don't need a therapist. You know, doing stand-up comedy is my therapy. I don't tend to see much of an improvement in the mental state of those people, you know, over over a long period of time. The audience isn't a therapist or your spouse isn't a therapist. You know, the guy at the gas station. Your friends aren't therapists. Like a therapist is a therapist. And the guy at the gas station is probably not an endocrinologist.

43:27People have different different things that they do. And so, yeah, people have managed it in different ways. I will say that the people I've talked to who've been through addiction and are in recovery, who are writers, performers, songwriters, their work tends to get a lot clearer after they've sobered up and are on that path. But for most people, it's more of an accompaniment than a solution. I think it's really powerful. And I want to actually encourage the audience, even if you have nothing to do with stand up comedy in your regular life to go and listen to John's show. Because for me, as someone who just works in business, it's so empowering to hear people who are at the top of their game, who feel like I feel and yet are still at the top of their game.

44:23Not always, they have low points and low points are real. But I find your show powerful because it's hard for me to get corporate people to talk on the record about their mental illness, but creative people and artists somehow have permission. And, um, but I see so many parallels. Yeah. Um, because work is work and the love of work is, is the same no matter what you do. Right. And so it's really powerful. The, the people that you talk to. Yeah. It's funny. I, um, you know, when I first started doing this, I thought, are you always hear about the depressed comedian, the Pagliacci figure. And are there more depressed comedians than there are depressed dentists?

45:07And Patton Oswalt actually told me, no, he thinks that there's about the same percentage by and large in every profession. It's just that if your dentist was talking to you about suicidal ideation when they're doing their job, you'd quickly find a new dentist. But if a comedian is talking about as part of their job, then it's kind of okay. It's just different context. So yeah, so I wonder about that. Well, John Mo, thank you so much. Thanks, Maura.

45:41That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Maura Aarons-Mele. Lots more to come in the next episode.