How to Build a Culture Where It's Safe to Not Be Okay: Jed Foundation CEO John MacPhee

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2:31The Anxious Achiever: I'm Maura Aarons-Mele, and this is The Anxious Achiever. What does it mean to lead with kindness? Not as a value statement on the wall, but to actually do it and create a kind culture? Well, it's about how you give feedback. It's about how you lead meetings. It's about how you make hard calls and show up when things go wrong. My guest today is John McPhee, who's CEO of the Jed Foundation, which is the country's leading nonprofit working to protect the mental health of teens and young adults and to prevent suicide, which is really its DNA. And under John's leadership and that of his awesome team, the organization has grown tremendously to be a$30 million not-for-profit organization, partnering with hundreds of colleges and schools and youth-serving organizations, and with really incredible results, which John will tell us about.

3:29The Anxious Achiever: But John as a leader is really interesting, and his path, like most of us, wasn't linear. He came from industry into the nonprofit world, and as a young person, he failed out of Columbia University. He struggled with anxiety and a years-long feeling that he didn't belong. And in this moment where, as a successful, big-deal executive at a pharmaceutical company, his dying mother told him he had been kidnapped by his own prestige, that conversation changed his life. Today, we talk about kind leadership and practice, what workplaces get wrong about mental health. I think Jed has a model. I wish every workplace would adopt.

4:20The Anxious Achiever: It's so comprehensive. Why belonging is way more than an HR initiative. And what it actually takes to build a kind and psychologically safe culture. My conversation with Jed's John McPhee. John, welcome. Thank you. Glad to be here. I've been, well, I'm really glad to have you. I've been such an admirer of your work and your leadership at the Jed Foundation. And today I want to talk about leadership. I want to talk about young people and the future. I want to talk about trends that you're seeing in mental health at scale. And whatever else you want to talk about. Okay, let's do it. So, yeah. Um, okay.

5:09The Anxious Achiever: Well, I'm going to start with a question that I like to ask people, which is what does leadership mean to you? Yeah. Okay. So I guess a simple, but not so simple question to me. Um, you know, leadership is about how you, um, show up in a way that with a group of people that helps that group of people, um, you know, identify their objectives and sort of move towards the objective. So I view it very much as a, as a service role and a member of the team. I'm not even sure that I really like the word leader, you know? So the way, the way that I view my role when I'm in a leadership position, like I am with Jed is I focus on trying to make sure that everybody understands our goals and that everybody feels like they've had some level of authorship in, those goals.

6:03And if, and if their contributions were not fully listened to that, at least they felt heard and like they, like they contributed. And then it's about communication, communication, communication, like transparency, trying to make sure that everybody has the same information and is aligned so that, that, that team, you know, can work together, you know, in a very sort of high functioning way. And a hierarchy is there and leadership is there when decisions have to be made or when there's earnest disagreement, but it's really about sort of being shoulder to shoulder and working together. And I believe very, very much in this idea that, you know, leadership should be very kind, you know, and I think that I worry that a lot of the messages and the stories that are told in media are, are suggesting that the bully advances or, you know, that, you know, the, the Machiavellian one advances.

7:05And I, I don't believe that at all. You know, I believe that good people do finish first and, and can finish first. And so, you know, leading with, um, with sort of kindness and care and, and you have to earn it, you have to earn that trust and it takes time. But if you can get there as a leader, then I think the whole enterprise is just going to benefit tremendously from that. I feel like I was all over the place in responding to you, but hopefully it makes sense.

7:38The Anxious Achiever: All right. Well, let's do a little case study here. Talk us through, you mentioned two things that are interesting to me, kind leadership, like what does that actually mean? And then helping people feel like they have a voice and and input into decisions. What is a kind way to do that? You just went through a merger. Did you acquire another organization? Okay. No, it's a merger of equals. It's a merger of equals. Okay. How do you as a leader think about a change process, which can be difficult just because change is hard, and the fact that at the end of the day, it, you know, the buck has to stop somewhere with letting people feel input and agency?

8:24The Anxious Achiever: Like, what is the kind way to do that? Well, I think kindness can show up in a lot of different ways, right? I mean, you know, demonstrating, first of all, really caring and believing in people and demonstrating that. Transparently, if you have something to say, or you think that's, you know, somebody could have done something perhaps better, you know, or there's a learning moment that you deliver it in real time. But in from the perspective of learning and always improving, and I suppose I should back up here and say, just as an example, at Jed, we have guiding principles for how we show up for each other and how we work together.

9:07So our guiding principles are not about how we're showing up for our constituents necessarily. It's about how we show up for each other as a team. And there are things in there that like we build trust, right? We recognize that trust is earned. We express gratitude. We are help givers. You know, we practice self-care. So a lot of the sort of kindness things that I'm sort of talking about are baked into our guiding principles that we co-developed as a team years ago and that we talk about regularly we showcase in all of our staff meetings right so um i think in this part of my answer to you i'm trying to say that like it's values driven and if you can name those values and then demonstrate them and then hold yourself accountable you you know to them you're and you're always striving you recognize never ever try to suggest that you've arrived because you never arrive.

10:02You're always sort of striving. One of our guiding principles is that we're always improving. That takes me back to the feedback thing. And because we have a guiding principle that we're always improving, that means we recognize that mistakes are going to be made, you know, and things are going to go sideways. And so when it happens, it's okay, you know, but what, what I think a kind leader does is that they acknowledge that they discuss that. And we say, okay, now we're just going to pick ourselves up and we're going to do it better the next time. We're going to take the lesson we've learned, but there isn't any, um, gotcha, you know, or you screwed up because we recognize, you know, that we're, we're always improving and we, and we need to.

10:43Yeah. Okay.

10:45The Anxious Achiever: But everyone listening is going to say, yes, absolutely. Like we have a value statement too. Like we, my question for you is how, especially with, you said self-care, You said trust. How? It is a logistical practice as much as it is an aspirational value. What have you learned? Yeah, well, I think over time I've learned a lot, right? So I'll go back to when I worked at a different organization. First of all, with self-care, let me say this. Things are going to go wrong in everybody's life. There are going to be challenges, right? every single person in an organization is going to have to tap out at some point because of something that affects them or affects a loved one or whatever it is.

11:36And so from a self-care point of view, we need to view self-care as a team endeavor. Like I've got your back because every one of us is going to go down or need help or need their back covered at some point. So we really try to live that practice of, okay, so-and-so has got to take a leave. Let's, you know, we're going to cover for them with a recognition that sooner or later, it's going to happen, you know, to all of us. I learned this lesson, you know, years ago, my mother was sick. She got diagnosed with cancer and she died five months later. And I was in a very important job. At that point, I was in corporate in the pharmaceutical industry.

12:18And I, my mother was in Massachusetts and I was in New York and I wanted to figure out how to help and care for her. And I was thinking about taking a leave, you know, which would have been a problem for the organization, just given what we were working on. And I remember my manager, she called me in and she said, I want you to move to Massachusetts with your mother. And this was like when tech couldn't support remote. And I was like, you, you want me to, she says, yes, yes. Move to Massachusetts with your mother for as long as it takes and just do whatever you can do for work, you know, um, and we'll figure out the, and we'll figure out the rest, you know?

12:54And I, I remember saying to her, but how can you possibly cover, you know, and how could you, and, and she's like, because you need to do this and, and go and we'll figure it out. And I, and, and I did, you know, and then I wound up working so hard while I was also helping to take care of my mother because of all this. And I felt this incredible sense of loyalty, you know, and I had been at the organization for years, but I carried that with me and thought, okay, this is something that, you know, I'm going to try to do every chance I possibly can in the future when I'm in a position to help somebody and to understand that, you know, these things happen.

13:34So this is an extreme case that I'm giving you, But these are the kinds of things that if you can do and just cover people when things go wrong, you start to then show what kindness looks like in practice, you know. And I think it just there's all kinds of benefits from it, you know, that the organization will get and leadership will get if they carry themselves that way.

14:06The Anxious Achiever: That's beautiful. It's such also a powerful example of how the best bosses in our life shape us to be better leaders, right? I mean, I'm sure you've had bad bosses too, but like that is a moment that is probably burned in your soul. Yes. Yes. How do you tell someone no kindly, especially when they really want something or they really want to do a project? factor? So I try to listen to what they want in their rationale as deeply and thoroughly as I possibly can. I try to put myself in a place where I can then explain to them what they want and why they want it, hopefully with such a deep understanding that they can then say to themselves, he's listening.

14:58You know, like he hears me, he's listening because he is in fact playing back to me the case that I'm making, you know, in a very sort of accurate way. And if it turns out that the answer needs to be no, I will try really hard to explain why. Not just say no, but explain why. So that at least the person can understand that. And maybe I can move them, you know, a little bit. But it's just transparency, you know, transparency and explaining. And then a couple of other things that are part of this, I believe. And that is that if you work together long enough, right, and I've been fortunate that I have several senior leaders and direct reports that have worked with me for a long time.

15:47They know that while I might say no sometimes, that I say yes most of the time to their, you know, good and passionate ideas. And so that, you know, sort of builds over time. And I also try to say yes when there's no downside to saying yes. So why wouldn't, you know what I mean? Like why wouldn't you say yes when it's easy to say yes?

16:11The Anxious Achiever: I think that's really good advice. I think that's really good advice. So just tell us quickly for people who aren't listening what you do at Jed. Jed, maybe talk about this new merger, what that's going to look like. And then I want to talk a little bit about more of your leadership strategies and your story. And then I want to talk about young people and hope for the future. Yeah, yeah. So the Jed Foundation is a charity, a nonprofit that focuses on youth, teen and young adult mental health and suicide prevention. And it was created by a family who lost their 20-year-old son to suicide. and at the time they did not know that he was a threat to himself.

16:57They knew that he had struggled at times with his mental health but they did not know that he was a threat to himself and he was a student at the University of Arizona and they had a conversation with the president of the university about how the school protects student mental health and the president said to them there's 35 ,000 students here like I do not know what it would look like to create a mental health safety net, but I want to do it. But what does that look like? And the founders came to learn there was no model for what schools should do to support mental health. So they created the Jed Foundation 26 years ago to answer that question, right?

17:37What should a school do? And so if we go forward to today, this is the core part of what the Jed Foundation does. We try to improve the environments and the youth serving organizations and spaces, right, that affect youth, schools, school districts, colleges, high schools, youth serving organizations, municipalities, etc. The Jed Foundation enters deep partnerships with these types of organizations and helps them put in place what we call a comprehensive approach to improve mental health and reduce risk for suicide. And if you want, we can go more deeply into that, but it's very technical, very nerdy.

18:16Let's do it. I mean, I have people who are thinking, this sounds great.

18:21The Anxious Achiever: I'd like to do this in my organization. Yes. Yes. Well, any, any, what we call boundaried community that, you know, has, has members like a workplace, a faith community, et cetera, can and should do this work. So first is committing to mental health of your constituents. Now I'm going to stick with a school model, the students, is a named priority. Then there needs to be a leadership team that oversees it, and that leadership team should include students, and it should be multidisciplinary. So what we're saying strategically is that mental health belongs to the entire institution, not just the counselors and not just the mental health services group, but right belongs to everybody.

19:04And then we implement a model, it's called a multi-tiered system of support. We call it a comprehensive approach. So there are known protective factors for youth mental health, such as life skill development, problem solving skills, independent living skills. Can they manage their own money, do their own laundry, you know, advocate for themselves, you know, social emotional skills.

19:25The Anxious Achiever: Do you actually send people to teach them how to do laundry? We actually advocate that parents go on strike with their high school students. And like, literally, if you're a parent, do not do laundry, do not cook, right? Teach your young people how to develop these independent living skills. Do not call their coach for them. Do not call the teachers for them. Like, get them to do it, right? And to advocate for themselves. And there's so much to this, right? Transitions are hard. And so some young people are fortunate enough to go to camp and then they can experience what it is to be out of the house.

20:01Others can't. but maybe you can send them to their grandparents, their cousins, like get them to be uncomfortable in, you know, in safe places. So yeah, you know, yes, family should go on strike and let their, let their young.

20:16The Anxious Achiever: Listen, I've been on strike for two years for basically anything housework related. So I'm cheering that. And, and, and then the other areas are like connectedness and belonging, right? Very important, right? The antidote to loneliness and disconnection, right? A sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, meaning. These kinds of things are protective. And when you're a school or a community-based organization, you can really think about how to foster those. Adult caring relationships, very important. Especially non-parent adult caring relationships are incredibly protective. Then the next area we want to look at is culturally, is it okay not to be okay?

20:59Is it safe to ask for help? And do students know how to ask for help? And also to give help, right? So when we talk about help seeking at Jed, we also talk about help giving. So if you're worried about someone else, do you lean in, you know, and say, hey, you know, I'm here for you. Is everything okay? You know, that kind of a culture. And then we get into, you know, sort of more hard interventions, if you will. Let's say a young person expresses distress or you're someone at the school and you think that they might have an emerging mental illness or some kind of distress. How then do you connect them to care?

21:35What are the policies about bringing in family and parents? And those can differ based on whether the person is an adult or a minor. How is mental health care provided? How is it paid for? What are the, you know, making sure or you have crisis procedures, all of these kinds. There's a lot of details in there that are very important to be mapped out. And then we look at, is the environment safe? So this could be things like cyberbullying, but it's also physical safety. Are the rooftops secured? Are the window guards in place? We know that suicidal impulses are fleeting, and we want to make sure people don't have access in that fleeting impulse to hurt themselves.

22:15And then this whole model, which a jet has like 250 components to it, is we look at it through the lens of what we call equitable implementation. Who was that school built for? Who was it not built for? What is the data? Because we survey all of the students and youth organizations we work with. What does the data tell us about who's experiencing additive or different stressors in that environment so that we can tailor our approaches to those groups of youth? And then this becomes an ongoing process. So at Jed, we've done this with 550 colleges or are doing it. The data show that student reported suicide attempts are down 25 % from program baseline to completion over four years.

23:01Student population rates of depression and anxiety improve and retention and graduation rates improve. And so that's like the core of the work we do. I'll also quickly say we do policy and advocacy work and we also spend a lot of time and attention working with content creators, media entertainment, and looking at tech spaces because cultural media entertainment and digital spaces are also places that, you know, can cause harm or can do good. And we want to, you know, basically implement the same process to try to make these environments safer and more supportive. Yes.

23:38The Anxious Achiever: And I have to tell you that your impact on the public narrative as a nonprofit organization has been so powerful. You do such a good job. You're cool. You do have great branding. You have great content. That stuff really matters. I appreciate that. We have a great team. We really have a great team. I have a new driver in my family. And as an anxious person, who boy is it testing me. And that's why I love Hey Polo. Hey Polo is the family safety app built on trust. I want to know if my teen has arrived safely. I want to know if he's speeding or driving safely on the road. And Hey Polo lets me do all that.

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28:14The Anxious Achiever: That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with Code Achiever. Let me ask you a question. So I spend a lot of time with companies in particular, and you come from corporates, you understand this, that are really struggling. They're pretty mature in their life cycle of mental health in that they have great benefits, right? They, in a crisis are pretty good, right? They have therapy on the health plan, right? They've got all this stuff. And they really struggle with the first part of the spectrum, I think, that you talked about, which is almost like you might think of it as a spectrum from mental health to mental illness, right?

29:06Yes. Yes.

29:07The Anxious Achiever: And to me, the missing piece is the understanding that mental health is matrixed through every aspect. Like you said, it's everything we do from something stupid, like doing your laundry or whatever the adult equivalent of that is, to feeling belonging, to being able to help a colleague. We as a culture, I think, medicalize mental health and think it means mental illness when it really doesn't. And yet you deal with really scary mental illness at Jed at the same time. Like, how do you think of communicating the value of that holistic spectrum? And like, what are we doing wrong in workplace mental health, if you have any thoughts?

29:54Yeah, yeah. Well, so I think that's a very important thing that you're raising and that whoever's working in mental health, or if you're thinking about mental health and workplace, it's really important that you define what you mean, you know, sort of make sure that we're all on the same page. At Jed, we really like the WHO's definition of mental health. Their definition is that mental health is a state of well-being. And then it goes on to say where you have productive relationships, you know, productive work life, you know, active member of your community, these kinds of things. But it's a state of well-being, which is what you're saying, right?

30:29And therefore, it covers a lot of ground. Mental health is not just the absence of mental illness, right? It's a state of well-being. And so I think it's important. When people talk about mental health, they often mean mental illness. Yes, that's right. That's right. So in conversations, like when I'm in these conversations, I really try to enter into a discussion so that we can make sure we're talking about the same thing, right? So for example, not to overly complicate this, but the Jed Foundation is a suicide prevention organization first and foremost, and therefore mental health and mental illness, these are incredibly important parts of our work.

31:05but there are a number of people who die by suicide who do not have a mental illness you know they're dealing with very very difficult life circumstances and traumas and um uh and and they just find themselves in a place where their coping skills you know that can't match what's what's sort of what they're experiencing which can which is a tremendous amount so through our lens at jed then anything that causes distress is potentially in scope you know for the work for the work that we do. So this is a very important question about, about what's in scope or what isn't in scope. And then when we talk about mental health and there's all this conversation going on, it can get, it can get sort of confusing.

31:48And there are some risks around how we talk about mental health. You know, one is that I think the broad conversations that are happening about mental health are very good, right? Finally, we're, we're recognizing that mental health is part of overall health and well-being and is vital to who we are. So I think that that's great. There is some risk though in how it's being talked about and presented where we want to make sure we don't pathologize situations in which like it might be a situation related to grief or loss or a very difficult situation and where feeling sad or anxious or fearful or lonely is a normal human reaction to what you're experiencing, you know, and it's really important to talk about that.

32:35But there's a, there's a space in there. We want to make sure that we're not pathologizing what is a normal, appropriate human response to whatever the situation is. It doesn't mean you have clinical depression, you know, if you're sad because the situation calls for great sadness, you know. So there's, there's some space in there where I think there's some confusion and some sort of risk. But overall, I think the conversation is really good. And then the other place I think we need to be mindful of is that, you know, mental illness is really challenging, you know, major depression, panic disorder, eating disorders, you know, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder.

33:14And, and sometimes when we talk about mental health, really casually, we can, those conversations can sort of undercut, you know, people that are really, really struggling and dealing with mental illness in ways that I think are not intended, but that we should be paying attention to.

33:32The Anxious Achiever: Yes. I had a wonderful guest on the podcast recently, Alexis Redding from Harvard Graduate School of Education. And I love her, the new book she edited, Mental Health at College. I'm sure you know the work. But one of the things that she pointed out, which is like such an aha moment for a lot of us is just because you're feeling anxious doesn't mean you need to go to the counseling center. That's right. Yes. And I think for people like us to repeat that over and over again is really important. Yes. Agreed. Really, really a critical point. Now, you had asked me in the previous question about workplaces and what they can do.

34:12And so one of the things I'll say about this is you're right. A lot of workplaces have the right benefits in place, and it's really important that they do. I think that workplaces can do a better job helping people with understanding their role or as it relates to purpose and meaning. If you can help employees feel purpose and meaning in their roles and how they fit in and what they're accomplishing and why, I think that that can be really important for people's well-being. There's really good data about the power of meaning and purpose. Another thing that I think is a watch out, and we see this in schools, sometimes with faculty and staff is that if the leadership sets an intent to support mental health, right, and they put in all the right policies and all the right benefits, you need more than that.

34:59So let's think, for example, with an organization, an employer that maybe is selling something, right, and, you know, they're driven by earnings per share and by revenue and this kind of thing. Well, if the frontline managers are being held to account for what they sell with no grace at all, then that frontline manager is not going to show grace to the person who's struggling with their mental health, no matter what the policies show or say. That's right. Do you know what I mean? And no matter what the leadership says. So it has to get pulled through. There has to be training and expectations and support for the managers.

35:36Otherwise, it's a lot of rhetoric. but in practice, it won't be fulfilled because the pressures and the demands and actually the incentives and the way that people are being judged do not line up with, you know, this supposedly supportive culture of mental health.

35:56The Anxious Achiever: Oh, you're speaking my language. You know, I mean, I study high achievers, obviously, you know, but I think what's really interesting, and I'm going to actually use my son's high school as an example because I've never seen a place so full of anxious achievers. Again, all the right policies, like my son signed up for too many APs and I got a worried email from the dean, like we're flagged. But the culture of the high school and the incentives, i.e. getting into the best possible college you can, are completely completely misaligned with any goals of everything you're talking about. And it is to the kids, I think, and I think a lot of people in high achieving, high pressure workplaces feel the same way.

36:42The Anxious Achiever: Like I work with lawyers at big law firms, right? It's like, well, you can tell me that I should take advantage of self-care, but if everyone around me is completely obsessed obsessed with the next achievement and all the goals are aligned with that, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, stop, stop, stop lying to me, you know? Yes. I think this is a really important point in the workplace, in school, this achievement pressure, this, this sense that there's like a binary result, you're either going to be very successful or you're a failure. I think this is something culturally that we really need to, we really need to work on.

37:21Some of it is attitudinal and how we set up what's sort of concepts of what success looks like, but some of it is structural. I believe that income inequality and, you know, concern about, you know, whether or not you can pay off your debt, these kinds of things. I think these things are also putting, putting pressure on, on young people that they're really feeling. And then they feel that they have to achieve at these extraordinary levels, you know, I'll give you this.

37:50The Anxious Achiever: If you're paying$90 ,000 a year for college. Yes. Yes. I spoke once at a, at a very well-known high school to students and to students and to parents. And, and I made the point that fit in college selection is really important. Like, you know, do you want to be in, in the country? Do you want to be in a city? You know, just really thinking through all of the different aspects of fit. And I said that, you know, maybe the top 10 colleges were better academically than the others, but number 11 to 200, they're all the same. And you should pick the one that's the best fit for you based on what you want to do.

38:27And, you know, and not feel this sort of sense of pressure. You know, why is your first choice, you know, in the middle of the country and your second choice in the city, you're being driven by sort of prestige. And anyway, the head of the school told me that I wasn't welcome back. If I said that, unless I would commit to not say that anything like that again, where, you know, I was saying that, you know, one school was not better than another. And that was because that's how the school is judged, essentially. Where do their students go? Where do their students go to college? And they're judged based on sort of these traditional rankings of what is, you know, supposedly a better school than the other.

39:09So I just, I say that to say that this is deeply structural in a lot of ways, but it's a problem.

39:16The Anxious Achiever: Well, it's structural, it's systemic, it's cultural, it's, I mean, to me, it's, you sort of feel like a salmon swimming upstream or downstream, whichever way is the wrong way, right, to fight against these narratives. And I would imagine I've been reading a lot of articles. There's a sort of narrative evolving around the opt-out generation or the generation that's lost hope or the generation that's like, why bother because it's all hopeless anyway. That's a narrative I see evolving around college people, I guess, Gen Zs. it's powerful because they're kind of being told like, yeah, unless you're like in that top 10%, why bother?

40:08The Anxious Achiever: You won't be able to get a job. The climate's going to burn up. You won't be able to afford a house. You're going to have so much debt. I would imagine that's in your water given what you do. Yes. How do we, is that true? Do we fight that? How do we get around that? Well, so the data show that there's a lot of as existential dread that young people are feeling for all the reasons that you're saying. Did you see that incredible study? I think it was out of Northwestern and University of Chicago a couple months ago that showed it was about generation dread. The thing that was so fascinating to me was that young people exhibited so much risky behavior or that my generation would say risky because they had a little bit of a gambling mentality.

40:58The Anxious Achiever: Yes. I'm never going to be able to afford a house. I'm never going to be able to retire. So I'm going to do crypto and YOLO because why bother? And it led to all kinds of like a risky cascade of behavior. Yes. So what I'd say here is that I think a lot of this is very real, right? Yeah. But I always go back to something President Obama used to say, which was that the world has always been messy, you know? And in a lot of ways, it's gotten better. I fear that our news and media ecosystem is driven by what grabs attention. And so the bad news gets more air. The bad news is real, but it gets more airtime.

41:40And the good news and the beautiful stories get like no airtime, you know. And so I just worry that the picture that, you know, young people are sort of taking in isn't balanced by, you know, the many great things that are happening, you know. A couple of months ago, there was a big treaty signed related to climate. It got like no coverage. And so I do think it's important to seek good news and to try to break up all the bad news we're taking in, whatever that is for you. If it's cat videos, for me, it's baby goat videos. But just like a little bit of fun, a little bit of levity, but also find the good news.

42:26There's so many good and beautiful people in the world doing great things and helping each other. And, you know, we need to bring that out more.

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46:49The Anxious Achiever: That's$50 off your first year at Monarch.com with code Achiever. I'd love to hear anything that comes to mind when you think of, I mean, your numbers are incredible. Things that have made you feel like, oh, wow, like we can change. This really works. Well, what I see, first of all, it's the team we work with, the people in the schools and the youth-serving organizations we work with that have dedicated themselves to service are extraordinary. Yes. The people that I have met who are suicide loss survivors, like the founders of Jed, but so many others who have, you know, suffered this incredible loss and then they dedicate themselves to helping others and to try, you know, to try to prevent this not from happening anymore.

47:37more, it's just, it's inspiring, like all the time, you know. I would also say the work is heavy, but there is a beauty in it, and there is like all of this inspiration. So I feel like I'm motivated on a regular basis, you know, in very positive ways by what I'm exposed to.

48:00The Anxious Achiever: Well, what you're talking about is purpose and belonging. So let's talk about purpose and belonging. I had a guest on recently who helped commission a huge data set working with Oxford University and Indeed.com on workplace well-being. And the number one factor that they found contributing to well-being at work was belonging. Yeah. Yeah. I asked him, how do you define belonging? He said, well, there's not really a definition. So I'm going to ask you that question. and how are you guys tackling belonging? Well, so belonging is a core part of our model when we work with schools. We call it connectedness, but it's connectedness and belonging.

48:42How do I define it? I define it as, you know, feeling like you are part of and totally welcome as you are and authentically as you are with other people and by the institution, whatever that institution is, whether it's a school or a workplace, you can be yourself, you feel totally comfortable, you fit there and, and you feel that they, that they want you there and that you're part, you're important to this, to this thing. Like you, you, you belong and are, and are part of it. Right. So that's sort of how I would, I would define it. Um, and, uh, and then as it relates to how do you how do you foster it i think you name it as a value right and and then if you're if you're if you have control over the system if you're like you know if you're in that kind of a position then you need to create opportunities for people to to meet to be connected to work together you've got to form groups it might be like ergs or other groups um get people together This is especially important in virtual work environments, you know.

49:51Oh, yeah. But really, really just, you know, trying to get people together. At Jed, we have a culturally inclusive committee. We have an employee engagement committee. We do employee surveys and pulse surveys so we can try to, you know, learn and then, you know, really just try to continue to foster this. We have kudos boards and, you know, all of these kinds of things. And by the way, as I give examples from Jed, I really have to give the caveat, like, it's messy. I mean, I'm proud of what we built. We're highly functioning. We have an incredibly high fidelity to achieving our objectives and our grant objectives.

50:31But I don't want to give the false impression that it's all perfect and all, you know. Humans are messy. Yeah, it's messy. but you have to work you have to work at you have to constantly work at it's not like some sideline it's not some sideline thing you have to believe that if the people in your team feel that they belong and that they're connected and they have meaning and purpose they're going to do better work you know and the team is going to do better work and and so then you set out to just

51:00The Anxious Achiever: constantly build that I mean I think I think ERGs are wonderful and I think of like my son who felt a little bit so different his whole life. And then he found Model UN and all of a sudden, you know, he had a global network of people who felt just like him. But I think I want to come back to what you started with, which is I think there are moments of everyday invitation to belong that we don't talk about enough. Like listening, like taking the space to be like, how are you while we're not looking at our phone? with while with learning not to be passive aggressive to other people. I mean, there's, you know, the belonging also happens in between or in the beginning of the Zoom meeting as well, right?

51:48Very much so. Yeah. And that that's how you show up for each other. And I think leaders really have to model that there are some things you can put into place. Like I was at a I was at the CGI meeting and they had us working in groups and one of the rules that

52:05The Anxious Achiever: Clinton Global Initiative or computer graphics? Clinton Global Initiative, yeah. And one of the rules they had for the working groups was three before me, that when you spoke, you could not speak again until three other people had spoken. You know, and it really was this great thing and it wound up, you know, resulting in everybody contributing. And so there are things like that that I think also can be put into place. You know, one of my former places that I worked, everybody was an alpha. Everybody was talking over each other, you know, like it was like, it was brutal, you know. And so we put in these rules.

52:42We actually had a coach and she came in and she was like, okay, you guys, you need some rules. So rule number one is you cannot talk over another person. Rule number two is you need to be brief when you talk. And rule number three is that Elmo is the code word. if anybody wants to call anybody out for breaking the, you know, for breaking the rule. And it was hilarious and we had fun with it. But I tied this to belonging because these are mechanisms to then help get everybody to participate, you know, and to feel like they are welcome to participate. And I think that that's a big part of creating belonging.

53:21The Anxious Achiever: Yes, yes. You know, I work with a lot of neurodivergent leaders. My next book is sort of a guide for leaders who are neurodivergent, who have mental illness, who have different brains. And I think that one of the things that I've heard over and over again in all my interviews and all my research is that, you know, feeling unbelonging has kind of been my default mode since I was a kid. And I kind of know at this point what would help me feel like I belong. Yes. At work, whether it's, again, maybe the Zoom meeting is really overwhelming because everyone is yapping the entire time or I don't do happy hours or, you know, it would be so great if we could have an agenda for the meeting or like fluorescent lights drive me nuts.

54:13The Anxious Achiever: And I feel so unsafe to ask for these not really hard things that would benefit everyone, frankly. Yes. And aren't that hard? Like nobody's asking for a golden palace. Fair. You know, so what I can say on this that we've implemented that I think has been very helpful is we have mechanisms at Jed. We have a staff, a full town hall staff meeting every month. Everyone can submit anonymous questions before the staff meeting. We have a mechanism to submit anonymous questions and all the questions get answered. We also now also have just a mechanism where you can make anonymous requests and such as this.

54:53just in case people don't feel safe making a request, you know, for accommodations, et cetera. And so you can put things like that in place at least so that hopefully you can get the information and try to reduce the number of times that somebody might want something, but they're afraid to ask for it because you're right. A lot of these things are very easy to provide. You know, now, and then sometimes going back to something I said earlier, I have folks at Jed when we do the town hall who want to record the town halls. Now I go in there without a script. I answer all the questions in real time and like, I don't want to be recorded, you know, because, and I, because I feel like if I was being recorded, I would be more careful and maybe not sort of as authentic as like, I want to be in real time.

55:43Um, and so I, I explain that, you know, we have a conversation about it. Isn't just a no, it's like, this is why. and then what we're doing now that we just started is sending out recordings you know sort of separate recordings about important things and content to try to meet the people that are making that request because they feel you know they want to go back and you know I don't know whether you call that a compromise or meeting in the middle but it's it's it's it's listening you know and and responding and trying to be responsive well I mean I think that's I think that's also the moral

56:15The Anxious Achiever: of the story is, is sometimes the answer is no, right? And that's okay, too. Like, we don't always get everything. But that's why I encourage people to know their non negotiables, right? Like, this is what I absolutely need. This is a nice to have. Because again, like, my needs and your needs might be very different. And we both have the right. Yes. So john, you got your start, You went to business school, got your start in pharma, in industry. You went to nonprofit, but you lead a very kind of high growth entrepreneurial nonprofit. And I'd love to hear about your own experience. Why did you make the pivot to work at Jed?

57:02The Anxious Achiever: And have you applied principles from business to Jed's growth? Yes. So I'll try to tell this story relatively quickly. Take your time. When I was in high school, I was a good student, but I didn't try that hard, right? I played basketball. Basketball was my first love. And I was recruited for basketball. And when my mother learned that I could go to college for free because of basketball, which kind of blew her mind, she intervened with the basketball coach. And she was determined to get me into a really good school through basketball. And so she told the coach which schools could recruit me, the whole thing.

57:43And after this process, I went to Columbia University. And Ivy Leagues Don't Get Scholarship is basically a full financial aid and went to Columbia. And I loved the idea of New York City, but I was almost immediately overwhelmed by it. I didn't have any money. Everybody had all this money. School was really hard, balancing with basketball. The whole thing just, the whole thing, I was so anxious. I stopped going to class. I was on academic probation multiple times. And as a junior, I failed out. And I failed out in a semester that I did not go to class for an entire semester, but played in every basketball game.

58:18And nobody noticed, nobody caught me until the semester was over. And they were like, you have to leave, you know? And so they let me, it's all process. They let me stay one more semester, but you guarantee you're leaving after that semester. You're not matriculated. I left. I went to UMass. I tried to transfer to UMass Amherst. They rejected me. And so I took classes at UMass Boston and Northeastern unmatriculated while my mother called Columbia every day telling him, you know, you took him, you have to take him back. He was just a young kid playing basketball and, you know, you let him fall through the cracks.

58:52And I moved back to New York. I lived in a fraternity. I was not a student at Columbia. And every day I went to the admissions office to say, my mother won't let me come home. You have to, you have to take me in, you know? And, um, they did, they did in October. They took in October, like they took me back and I graduated from Columbia and I always had this complex, right? Because then I was the big dumb kid on the basketball team who failed out and, you know, Ivy league school. And I felt like I didn't belong. And I felt like, I felt like I was as smart as all my friends when we would be hanging out, but I could not perform academically like my peers.

59:28I just couldn't. So when I graduated, I couldn't get a job at first because I had like a terrible GPA and the whole thing. And I went to work in the shipping industry, transportation sales, and I worked incredibly hard. And I started going to NYU night school. Four and a half years, I got an MBA night to try to redo my academic, you know, performance, if you will. I switched to a pharmaceutical company because they would pay for a business school. None of this was purpose-driven. I spent 20 years in the pharmaceutical industry, and I worked so hard, right? But I, and I could tell this was an industry where knowledge mattered, right?

1:00:09So I was promoted multiple times, 10 times in 10 years. I launched$3 billion drugs. I had all of this opportunity. I became the co-president of a pharmaceutical company, officer of a public company, like successful by all of these measures. I started to feel a little bit like, wait a minute. There was a point where I said to myself, I don't have to prove anymore that I'm like capable. Like that drive where, you know, whatever I was trying to prove to myself or to whoever like started to fall away, you know? And then that coincided with my mother dying, which I told you about earlier. And she died five months diagnosis to her death and her very last conversation with me, which was loving, was she told me that my money and had a lot of money, my car, my money, my suits, my job, my house was ransom, that I had been kidnapped and was being held for ransom by my prestige and my compensation.

1:01:12And that the boy that she raised wanted to be a math teacher and a basketball coach and he had been kidnapped. and I was like what what so so I was so I was like but I'm very successful our family was in debt I paid off all our debt I'm like I paid off all our debt I I like had done it like you know and she's like it's bullshit it's all bullshit you know and again like very loving and I've told this story in other settings so I came out of that the last conversation I ever had with my mother And I was in that together with my own sort of reckoning of like, well, what is my purpose? I decided and then that sort of started to come up against a couple.

1:01:58By the way, when I say I reckon with this, I reckon with this for like three years. Like I was, you know, like, wait a minute. What? Like, what does this mean?

1:02:06The Anxious Achiever: I mean, a therapist must have had a field day. Like, oh, my God. What am I going to do? I was lucky because as co-president of the company I worked for, I had a contract. and the contract was expiring. And so it created a moment to think, right, on both sides. And I decided I was going to go back to school for public health, health policy, which I did. I went back to school, took a break with the idea that I was going to work for a nonprofit for purpose, but in health systems, because I understood how the healthcare system works. And while I was going to school, the founder of the Jed Foundation, Phil Setau, who I used to work for when I was in pharmaceuticals.

1:02:46I worked for him when Jed died, actually. He called me to say that they had a vacancy with their executive director. And would I test my personal thesis while I was going to school, run the Jed Foundation, help him make a long-term plan and determine, you know, whether it was sustainable, et cetera. And then for me, when I grew up, I grew up in a family that really struggled with addiction and alcohol addiction. I was exposed to a lot of, well, everything was in the context of alcohol and addiction. Nothing was in the context of mental health. But I've lost four first cousins to overdose. And I was very shy when I was a kid.

1:03:27Like if I didn't have basketball, I didn't talk to anybody except for my sisters and like my teammates. And I know now that I struggled with anxiety and depression, I believe. And when I got into trouble in college, And I was a pretty bad problem drinker, actually, back then, too.

1:03:43The Anxious Achiever: Even with the basketball? Yes, it was the 1980s. My teammates, my teammates, yes, I think a lot of us were. Actually, I think I saw in the Celtics. I shouldn't laugh, but not, you know. Well, I mean, I saw the Celtics documentary recently, and I'm pretty sure a couple of the players were smoking. I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. So I joined, so that's why I made the transition. There's another really important part of this, which is when I struggled, basketball coaches, an admissions officer, my mother, they were like these caring adults that helped me tremendously. And if it wasn't for them, like they gave me second, third, fourth, fifth chances, you know, because I was blowing every chance that I was being given.

1:04:28And yet there were these older adults who stuck with me. So Jed's model, which is like, how do we improve the systems? and how do we, like, I was just completely drawn to it. And so that's all why, this is a long story, but that's all why I made the transition to the Jed Foundation 15 years ago. And it must have been kind of like joining a startup. It was. There were five people in a$900 ,000 budget.

1:04:55The Anxious Achiever: And now? About 115, 118 people and a$30 million budget. I mean any any corporate officer would be psyched with that growth yes it's kind of funny because it is amazing growth for a non-profit and I'm very proud of it but a lot of it just has to do with persistence 15 years of just one foot in front of the other yeah you know and building a building a team and then that you know that those great people help build it and then some funders coming in and helping us but you know in a way it's I kind of view it as just slow and steady and consistent and persistent for 15 years. Your story is so amazing on so many levels and so resonant also with leaders I've interviewed who went through real challenges as young people and sort of had this moment where it could have gone either way.

1:05:51Yes.

1:05:52The Anxious Achiever: And while I think it's beautiful to look back, I don't know how old you are, but many decades and 58 and say, God, I'm so like, I'm blessed. Like it went this way. I also think that that's a burden to carry. It's a burden because it's just a weight of what ifs and history and probably guilt and shame and all that stuff. And do you ever feel that way or have you let it go? you know it's a real well it's a really important point have I felt that way yes and and without going into any other details or stories related to what I did like part of the reason I made the change was everything that I said to you but then there's another layer on it which is like redemption like you know like wanting to do good because I felt like I hadn't done good you know And maybe in some situations I did harm or at the very least wasted opportunity.

1:07:00And so that burden for me in terms of how it shows up sometimes just feels like I'm trying to make good.

1:07:10The Anxious Achiever: Well, that's the hero's journey too. You know? Yeah. I think it's really beautiful. I mean, I'm 50. So like, by the time you get to our age, you have at least some moment in your life where you're like, well, it could have gone either way. And, you know, people like us, we're so we're so lucky. We're so fortunate. it. Um, but, but I do think sometimes that the achievement and the anxiety and the stress is, is because we feel that we feel that burden and we're like, I'm never going back there. Or I want to prove to people that I am worthy and I can do this. You know, it's just, it's a, it's a really subtle thing.

1:07:56Yes. Yes.

1:07:58The Anxious Achiever: You know, after hearing your model and how just complete it is. Why? My question, and you don't have to answer this, is like, why doesn't every organization choose this model? It feels so clearly the right way. What's the first step? What's the first step? Like when you talk to a new college or new school, what's the first step that they take? Well, so I believe every organization should do this model, right? And more and more are doing it. you know, for sure. But the first step is that the leadership needs to decide that they're going to prioritize this work. You know, it can't be from middle management or it can't be from the head of the counseling center because it's an enterprise-wide undertaking, you know.

1:08:53So the leader has to, you know, earnestly, earnestly want to do it. And then it needs to be really sort of the entire leadership team. And at Jed, we help schools or organizations build out a team and a commitment at the team level, because you have to withstand turnover. Because in these kinds of organizations, there's a lot of, there's a lot of turnover, right? So it is better to go slow in the sort of commitment making stage, it's better to go slow and to have that commitment before, you know, you start the work. Schools come to us, I want to say as a general matter, in two different ways. One is they have decided to do this work and they want to do it.

1:09:30And they've, they've done the work that often happens after a suicide or after a couple of deaths and they're in tragedy and, and, and, and, and recovery and they, and they, they, they urgently want to do something, you know? And then the other scenario is, um, whatever, whatever the journey was, the leaders have decided that this is something they want to do, or their students brought it forward to them and they've looked at it and they said, yes, this is something we want to do. And they contact us because they want to learn more.

1:09:58The Anxious Achiever: I want to just highlight a piece that I think I heard you say. You know, I think often we think that there's one champion in an organization who's passionate about this and they make it happen. But I think I hear you saying that actually that's not, that's not it. It has to be a buy-in decision. It does. It has to be a buy-in decision. And there can be a champion and it's often led by a champion, but it's not sufficient, right? You want to make sure that you, yes, that you have buy-in across the enterprise, at least across the leadership of the enterprise, as you then go and make, you know, enter the work.

1:10:37And I would say with regards to workplaces, I think all workplaces should do this. And, you know, if you want to think about it through the business lens or almost like a self-serving lens, a healthy organization and promoting mental well-being results in better outcomes. Whatever the enterprise is trying to do, it results in better outcomes.

1:10:59The Anxious Achiever: Yes. John, I want to thank you for such an incredible conversation. Thank you.

1:11:09The Anxious Achiever: That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Maura Aarons-Mele. Lots more to come in the next episode.

1:11:42Thank you.