How to Handle Anxiety About Difficult Conversations with Amy Gallo

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3:21Do you avoid conflict and difficult conversations at work? If you're human, you probably do. It's kind of a superpower and I've met people who can do it. But I think most of us, we don't like feeling conflict. It makes us anxious. It's really hard. It's common to get flooded with emotions in the middle of a tough conversation, right? The stakes feel high. And so we avoid feedback and criticism and difficult conversations, both giving it and receiving it. But conflict expert Amy Gallo says, honestly, avoiding conflict, it's worse for your anxiety in the long run. And it's healthy to have conflict at work.

4:11We just need to understand how to manage it. And that's what she's going to help us do today. I'm Maura Ahrens-Mele, and this is The Anxious Achiever, the show that looks at the intersection of mental health and leadership and work and asks, how can we do it all better? I want to just leave you with a tidbit as we head into the show. Amy and I are going to talk about lots of practical approaches to managing conflict, especially if you're an anxious achiever. Something that really has changed managing conflict for me, especially difficult conversations, is just a little phrase that I learned. And actually my husband helped me with it.

4:56And it's kind of a catchphrase. When I'm heading into a difficult conversation, I prepare myself, I write out bullets and talking points. And when I get flustered and when I get anxious in the moment, I pause and I might say, that's not how I see things. When I go into sort of emotional hijacking, I can always come back to this neutral phrase. So we'll talk about sort of emotional heuristics that we can all use to manage conflict more healthily and make it a tool for growth at work. Here's my conversation with Amy Gallo.

5:42Hi, Amy Gallo. Hi, Maura. So nice to hear you, see you, be with you. Well, same. I'm going to ask you a question that I actually, I don't think even though we know each other that I know the answer to, which is that you are an expert on managing conflict in the workplace and difficult conversations. How? Why? What started this journey for you?

6:12Amy Gallo: Oh, gosh. I mean, if I really think about it, it started with having divorced parents and having to sort of navigate, you know, having two households and being with people who didn't being the daughter of two people who didn't speak to each other. And I think from an early age, I was really interested in how people handled contentious interactions. And then, you know, fast forward to my early career, I was a management consultant. I worked for a firm that focused on strategy and organization. The most fascinating part of that job for me, while my colleagues were very interested in like, what's the best strategy for this organization?

6:55Amy Gallo: You know, let's create a really fascinating deck for them. You know, I was really intrigued on what happened in the meetings. So what was being said, what wasn't being said, how could you bring up issues that were going, you know, unspoken so that people could talk about them. And honestly, the more contentious things got, I thought the more interesting, because for me, that was where the work was actually happening. The work of sorting through what is it we need to do? How are we going to interact with one another? You know, how are we going to push forward whatever it is we're trying to push forward, the strategy initiative project?

7:37Amy Gallo: To me, it's really about how people interact that makes anything happen. And conflict's a part of that. So you weren't scared of conflict, it sounds like. No, certainly not in the job as a consultant, partly because it didn't seem, you know, as a consultant, you're outside, you're, you know, outside looking in. And so it never seemed personal to me. And, you know, I do, of course, as we all do feel uncomfortable in the conflicts about me, my relationships, my needs, my future. But in general, I find conflict, something that I think we do don't do enough as humans, and certainly don't do enough in a healthy way.

8:22Amy Gallo: And so I think of it more as an opportunity, I think, than something to be afraid of. I love that framing, a necessary discomfort to sort of progress, to achieving progress. Yes, yes, because that's ultimately conflict is something we cannot avoid. And in fact, if we avoided it completely, which many people try to do, we're not going to get what we need. and we're not going to stay in relation with other people. We think that by avoiding conflict, we're preserving the harmony between us, the relationship between us and another person. And that might be the case some of the time. But ultimately, I think of it as an act of love or respect to say the things that are hard to say, to have the conflict, to surface the different opinions that we both hold and to sort through them together?

9:19I think that there's two parts to managing conflict, and you can correct me, because I think most of us may come into preparing for a difficult conversation or a structured conflict at work with those good intentions, but then we handle it so badly because our emotions get in the way. I speak from experience. Um, my big thing is that I get, uh, I get flooded with, with emotions and really anxious. And so I sort of become a little irrational sometimes in the middle of a conflict, even though I begin with the best intentions. Is that what your work is, is actually helping people like execute the conflict?

10:04Well, yeah.

10:05Amy Gallo: And I think you're, what you're talking about is completely normal, right? what's happening physiologically is that you're and you know, this is that your, your prefrontal cortex is being trumped by your amygdala. So you go into what the, you know, emotional intelligence experts call amygdala hijack, you're just simply not thinking rationally, you're reacting to the situation. So you go in calm and centered. And then as soon as someone as soon as the situation gets tense, or someone says something that that upsets you, then you start reacting and that is a completely normal thing to do and and my work the the writing I do the frameworks I offer the tools are really meant to help you stay out of that amygdala hijack so that you can feel more proud of how you respond in those moments and you can hold on to those good intentions or more likely you can return and come back when you do go into amygdala hijack and things go off the rails, which they often do, even for me, even for people who try to do this all the time.

11:12Amy Gallo: And but you can come back to it, readdress it, try to come to a different resolution and a different process that feels true to who you are rather than, oh, gosh, I, you know, I lost it. I didn't I didn't stick to what I really intended. I want to pull back and frame this conversation because this is a show for people who feel anxious. And people who are anxious, I believe, probably have maybe a different relationship to conflict because I think as we've just sort of established, conflict is anxiety provoking for most people. And so if conflict and avoiding conflict and feeling anxious in social situations or, you know, being perfectionistic, whatever is, is a struggle for you, then conflict has to have heightened stakes, I would imagine.

12:07Amy Gallo: Yes. And I think if you, if you feel anxious about interacting with other people, or, you know, if you have some sort of social anxiety, I do think conflict is going to feel particularly difficult. You're already nervous about preserving your relationship with someone or having that interaction or, you know, coming up, coming off in a certain way, appearing a certain way. And so conflict is going to feel like a threat to all of those things. And I can imagine someone and, you know, very smartly saying, I'm going to avoid conflict because it's a trigger for me. It brings out my anxiety. It makes me feel incredibly anxious.

12:49Amy Gallo: But I would posit that avoiding conflict is actually probably worse for your anxiety in the long run. Because putting it off often means the underlying issue that needs to be addressed isn't being addressed. There's this concept that Leanne Davey, who is a team expert, she talks about conflict debt. So you put as teams, this is really she talks on the team level, teams who don't address business issues that need to be addressed because it's going to be a difficult conversation, eventually get into debt. And meaning that there's this idea that there's this, you know, tension that's festering, that's getting worse over time.

13:35Amy Gallo: And when the further out from the original incident or the original idea that you get, the harder it becomes to address. And I think that's true on an interpersonal level too. So if you and I, you and I have a tough interaction about this project plan we're working on, we don't see eye to eye and I just ignore the fact that we don't agree. And rather than surfacing that and trying to sort it through, you know, at some point, either it's going to become too late because the project plan is going to be set, or you and I are going to have continue to have these tense interactions where our relationship is going to get worse and worse.

14:12Amy Gallo: And so avoiding that will create more anxiety for me or for you in the long run than actually addressing it at the time. I often think of difficult conversations as short-term discomfort for long-term gain. And the gain is better work product, stronger relationship, and even more confidence. I mean, I think one of the things that I've gained from developing skills around conflict resolution, difficult conversations, is I'm not afraid that things are going to go south with someone or that there's going to be some tricky situation that we have to navigate. I have a lot of confidence that I can do that.

14:51Amy Gallo: I have the skills to do that. And it makes navigating the world, it makes navigating my relationships, going to the coffee shop, dealing with colleagues, dealing with difficult colleagues. It just makes it all a little bit easier. And I think that's one of the things if you struggle with anxiety to realize is that these skills will really help you with anxiety, not, you know, sort of increase the situations in which you feel anxious. A lot of social anxiety, right, theorists believe, is really about a fear of being shamed, right? Ellen Hendrickson calls it the fear of the reveal, right? That if you go into this conversation and it gets contentious and you aren't able to hold your own, you will be found out for the total, incomplete, utter failure that you really are.

15:39And you'll no longer be able to fool people into thinking that you're a competent, smart person, right? Yep, yep. I think you're right in that fear of being shamed, which I can relate to so strongly of being stepped on in a difficult conversation can really drive avoidance. And I'm wondering if you have advice on like working through that.

16:05Amy Gallo: Yeah. And I think that you use the word shame and I think that no one wants to feel that. And it might be the shame of being, you know, the reveal. It might be the shame of feeling like you're you're you are wrong or you look stupid or it's your false stuff. Right. It's your fault. You made a mistake. All of that. So, yeah. So I think that that shame is a huge motivator to avoid. But I think one of the sort of mental shifts I've had to make is that it's easy to think that there's a winner and a loser. There's someone who's right and someone who's wrong. There's someone who's smart and someone who's not.

16:43Amy Gallo: There's someone who's made the mistake and someone who suffered the mistake. And one of the things I really try to do is think about that there's three entities. It's not just you and me, but there's this third entity, which is the question at hand, the business issue we need to solve, the decision that needs to be made. And ultimately, we both want what's best for that. And so I may be wrong, but the fact that we made a good decision ultimately means it's a win for everyone. And that helps me sort of skirt that shame. Now, I'm not going to say I don't completely avoid it. I still might feel it, but I can get through it more quickly if I know that ultimately what we want is a better decision or even a stronger relationship.

17:28Amy Gallo: Getting through, you know, making a mistake, a difficult conversation, navigating who's going to get their way and who's not, getting through the other side of that shows you and I can have these difficult conversations and we still will keep our relationship intact. And that's incredibly solidifying for a relationship. And anyone who's been through tough times with someone, a friend, a spouse, a business partner, and has come out the other side can recognize that oftentimes we're stronger as a result of that conflict. I have a new driver in my family. And as an anxious person, who boy is it testing me.

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22:55And that also, you know, there's a gender angle. And I know we both know the work of Hannah Riley Bowles, right? Yes. At Harvard, who has done a lot of work around women and negotiating that shows that women, when they are negotiating, if they make the ask not about themselves, I'm not going to get richer off this, but the team, someone else is going to benefit, they do better. But I also, as someone who struggles with this, have found like if I can separate my ego and my emotion and make it about the work, the team, the X, Y, Z, it goes better.

23:33Amy Gallo: That's right. And I think that's Anna Riley Bowles work around that is interesting because they do show that it's important for women to do that in order not to suffer the social penalty that women often suffer for being assertive or for negotiating on behalf of themselves. But I actually believe while it's imperative that women do that, it's it would be good for everyone. I agree. Regardless of your gender, you did that. Right. Because it would take this sort of tug of war that often negotiations or difficult conversations become and make them more collaborative. And it would depersonalize the argument for everyone.

24:09Amy Gallo: So we would all leave with our egos more intact or more comforted. And then actually I've heard it, what you're talking about with Ron Heifetz, I've heard it, like Harvard Negotiation Project calls it like putting yourself on the same side of the table as your counterpart. part. So rather than seeing yourselves on opposite sides and engaged in a battle, you're working together to solve a problem. And the problem, let's be clear, because sometimes the conflict is about your interpersonal relationship. So it's not about who's right and who's wrong, who was inappropriate, who was, you know, who, who said what, it's about how do we get our relationship back on track so that we can work together going forward.

24:51Amy Gallo: And I think that's if you constantly see the person as your partner in that and try to enlist them to be your partner in that, it's just going to feel better, definitely for you, especially if you feel anxious. But also, it's going to feel better for that other person and for your relationship. So Amy, let's talk about practicing, say that one of your goals, maybe you're in a new role, you're getting a new job, or you just don't want to be scared of conflict anymore. Or how can you kind of set up a plan to practice on low stakes conflicts? Yeah, that maybe you're better prepared when a higher stakes conflict happens.

25:29Amy Gallo: Yeah, well, I mean, I'm practicing this all the time. I practice it when I'm, you know, in the coffee shop and three people jump in front of me in line, right? I'm I'm practicing this certainly when I'm parenting my 14 year old. There's lots of opportunities to practice advocating for yourself, being clear about what you believe, enlisting the other person and helping you solve the problem. There's so many elements of this that you get to practice every day. And I think you're right that you want to practice in low stakes situations. One of the things I think we often assume is that we should just be good at this.

26:07Amy Gallo: This is just part of interacting with people. Why don't I know how to do this? But I don't know about you, but no one ever sat me down. I was like, here's how you have a good, productive fight. You know, these are skills anyone teaches us. Like you, my parents went through many years where they wouldn't speak and they would literally make me and my sister interpret. Tell your father to pass the salt at my college graduation. They they sat at opposite sides of the table and weren't speaking. So even though they came to the dinner for my college graduation, they wouldn't speak. So I would literally have to like pass the salt.

26:42Amy Gallo: Right. So so now your model of conflict is completely ignore it. You know, find someone else to to communicate on your behalf. Right. Like that's that's those are that's often what we learn is either completely ignore it, which is for many people, the model or it's going to just be an all out fight. And it's OK to scream. It's OK to say hurtful things. It's you know, and then and that's that that's not good either. I mean, I do appreciate that people are raising the issues, but doing it in a way that doesn't leave people feeling intact is not a good way to handle conflict either. And so I do think that we need to find, we need to practice and we need to find ways to try out some of the skills around, you know, staying calm, staying focused, keeping our intentions, you know, front and center, you know, trying out different ways of saying things.

27:36Amy Gallo: And I do think you want to not practice this with your new boss right away, right? You don't want to necessarily practice this with an important client. First thing, you want to try it out in smaller situations. So it might be with a good friend. It might be, you know, over where are we going to have dinner, right? They suggest a restaurant that you really don't like. How do you handle that? And with a good friend, it might be really easy. You might just say, I don't want to go there, right? But knowing that you can advocate for yourself and framing these situations that we negotiate all day long.

28:13Amy Gallo: We're actually having many difficult conversations quite often when we're interacting with people. And to think of it that way, I was able to advocate for what I needed. I was able to stay calm, even though we didn't see eye to eye. I raised an issue that I wasn't sure how it was going to be received by the other person. And it went OK. And then sort of slowly increase the stakes of doing that by doing it with people you don't know as well. Perhaps you have a more important relationship with in a relationship that maybe feels less safe. I think that's how you sort of get better over time just by practicing doing it over and over again.

28:52I like that. And it seems to me also that, I mean, no one has the same issues around conflict, right? For you, your issue might be that you're worried you won't be able to stand up for yourself and you'll feel dumb. For me, it may be that I'm greedy and I'm going to not get paid what I think I'm worth because, you know, for another person, it might be that they get really nasty and angry and ruin a friendship. Right. Because they blow up. Like, I think I think part of it is maybe understanding, really pinpointing like what your specific area of focus almost should be to practice.

29:29Amy Gallo: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think one of the things what I talk about in my my book is and it's it's an oversimplification, but I think it's a helpful model is to think about, do you tend to avoid conflict or do you tend to seek it? And obviously there's tons of nuance there. You might not do the same thing in every situation. But when you think about going into that amygdala hijack, when your best intentions go out the window, do you tend to avoid? Are you trying to get out of the conversation or do you lean into it and sort of stir the pot? Knowing what your default is can help you keep that, you know, have some self-awareness and then think about, well, is this really the right way to respond for this situation?

30:06Amy Gallo: Or is it what I just do in a knee jerk way? Because this is when I'm triggered. This is how I how I react. OK, so you have a you have a process for doing conflict better. Yes. Can you talk us through that? Yes. So this is actually a four step framework that I think about as before you even have the conversation. So when we think about trying to, you know, you mentioned going in with the best of intentions and then those intentions flying out of the window. you know, trying to, you know, really be as make the right choices about how to handle the conflict and to stay and connected to your prefrontal cortex.

30:47Amy Gallo: So you are making rational, thoughtful decisions in that moment. And, you know, the very first thing in this framework is to think about the other person. That's not necessarily going to be what you do, especially if you're an amygdala hijack because we become naturally narcissistic. But you want to think about how do they handle conflict? What's at stake for them here? What is it that they care most about? What could be a rational explanation for their behavior? And if that sounds like too other focused, ultimately, this is a really selfish step because you're trying to break your own rumination, open yourself to other interpretations of what's going on.

31:29Amy Gallo: It can feel really good to be like, Maura and I are fighting because Maura is passive aggressive and she always has been. And that's what I need to address. Just telling myself like such a crisp story. She sucks. That casts you as the enemy and me as the hero. That's really what we will do if left to our own devices. So thinking about you, thinking about, okay, if I was in Maura's shoes, how would I see the situation? What might actually be going on for her that I'm not seeing, that I don't understand? What pressures is she under from her boss or from, you know, home life, whatever? Thinking that through opens me up to different stories and different, it just makes me more able to be collaborative, more empathetic, more compassionate, all of which is not just about the other person.

32:17Amy Gallo: It is generous, of course, to think that way for them, but it's not ultimately about generosity. It's about getting yourself in the right mindset and hopefully gathering some information that can help you then once you're in the actual discussion that can help you navigate and propose something, a resolution that will not only meet your needs, but will meet the other person's needs as well. So that's step one. Step two is to think about what is it that's actually at stake? What are we actually disagreeing about? Because it can be easy. And this is something I do instinctively. I have to fight all the time is it's easy to be like, well, this is about our relationship.

32:56Amy Gallo: This is about their, our personality clash. We've, we've never seen eye to eye on these things. And just to make it really about our dynamic, which may be a factor, but chances are there's also some underlying business issue. You might be disagreeing about the goal of the project or how to get the project done or who has more status or clout to make this decision. And I think trying to really understand the multiple issues that are at stake and what are the most important to get resolved now. So prioritizing, sort of threading out here are the four or five issues we disagree on or that have come up in this conversation.

33:33Amy Gallo: And these are the ones that are most important to address. And I would recommend if they're ones that are more straightforward, like the goal of the project, if that can be easily clarified, that can often take care of some of the other, you know, sort of softer or more relationship focused conflicts. If you can at least get aligned on one thing, like the goal or how we're going to roll this out or when it needs to be completed. Are you literally saying that with your partner? Like, let's just align on the goal here? Or how do you introduce that? Yeah, I mean, I think once you think part Part of the reason you want to know, be clear about what you're discreet about is that you can so that when you sit down, you can say, I think what's really at issue here are three things.

34:15Amy Gallo: Right. And lay them out. We're not seeing eye to eye on the goal. The conversation has gotten a little tense between us, which I regret. And we're both under pressure from our boss. And so we've got this communication issue that we need to get back to our bosses about where we're, you know, where this is going. Let's start with a goal because I think we need to that that'll really help us get aligned. Do you agree? Right. And again, this is collaborative. You're not delivering a monologue. You're engaging them in conversation because they may have three other things that that they think you're the disagreement is about.

34:47Amy Gallo: And so you want to give space to hear those as well. And then the third step is to think about what is it you actually need? What is your goal in this situation? And your goal, this is when I'm in a rush and I can't do all four steps, this is the one I never skip because I think it really will drive how you decide to handle the conflict, how you will behave in the conversation. Ultimately, whether you decide to let this go or dig in and you want to figure out what is your primary goal. You might have multiple goals. Again, I want to look good to my boss. I want to preserve my relationship with this person, I need this project to get done by Tuesday, or else we're going to lose the client, right?

35:29Amy Gallo: There might be multiple things. But what's your primary goal? And if that goal can overlap with the other person's goal, even better, right? That that way you have a shared objective that you can rally around. So in the conversation, that might sound like I know we both care about getting this project done by Tuesday. I know that's really what we both want. So in order to do that, here's what we need to do? Or what do you think we need to get done between now and Tuesday to make that happen? But that gives you again, getting that person on the same side of the table gives you sort of a collaborative feel rather than we just don't see eye to eye at all.

36:09Amy Gallo: And helps guide you, sort of gives you a north star for the conversation, rather than getting dragged into all the other stuff that's likely going to go on in the conversation, you can stay focused, okay, my goal is to get this done by Tuesday. Or my goal is to preserve my relationship with this person, because it's my boss. And I don't want to have this contentious relationship going forward. So what matters most is that is that relationship. And then the fourth step is to decide what to do. So think about what you know about the other person, right? Think about what you're actually disagreeing about and what your goal is, and decide, okay, are we going to sit down and hash this out?

36:45Amy Gallo: Are we going to lay it all on the table? Am I going to enlist a third party who we both trust who can help us sort this through? Am I going to just let it go? Right? Am I going to do nothing, which is a perfectly good option. I think for the avoiders out there, this cannot be the thing you do all the time. But sometimes you do just let it go. It was a one off negative interaction that you think isn't going to be a pattern. Or, you know, the person is really incapable of a rational conversation is just going to blow up or shut down. Right? You may decide to to let it go, assuming you can still meet your goal without having to address it.

37:24Amy Gallo: And you may just decide, I mean, this is extreme, but there is always the option, assuming you've tried multiple things, to just exit the relationship. That's not always possible in a work context. But if this is a situation that is causing you causing damage to your well-being over and over and over, you have to ask yourself, how long am I willing to stick with this conflict when it's not getting resolved? This episode is brought to you by Vinted, a secondhand marketplace app. You know, I love clothes. And I love when the seasons change to spend a good amount of time, you know, moving out, reviewing my summer stuff, bringing in my fall stuff.

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42:22Amy Gallo: I mean, I think there's, well, there's, we agree to disagree is not a phrase I love, partly because I think oftentimes it's used as an excuse to not actually sort through the issues to like avoid the conversation. When you're genuinely hashing it out, you don't see out of eye, and you don't agree, agreeing to disagree, when you both can still meet your goals, I think is a perfectly fine thing to do. And sometimes there's compromise. Sometimes it's like, okay, you know what, you're going to get your way this time. But I need a guarantee that next time this issue comes up, we're going to go with my, my perspective or my, you know, choice in terms of how to proceed.

43:01Amy Gallo: Or it might be, you know what, let's just meet halfway. You know, I mean, this oftentimes it's just a sort of transactional like okay i obviously think this is the right thing you think that's the right thing what can we come up with that we can both live with neither of us can be thrilled but can we live with it and i think that's fine and sometimes we do have to especially when it when there's a complex conflict where you might be disagreeing about the goal of the project and how to do it and you're mistreating each other you know disrespecting one another you might have to let that disrespect go.

43:35Amy Gallo: That's often the hardest thing. Those relationship conflicts, the interpersonal conflicts can often be the hardest thing to address. So sometimes you might choose like, okay, I did not love the way he spoke to me in that email, or the way he addressed me in front of the group. But for now, I'm going to let that go. If it becomes a pattern, I'm going to have to dig into it. But for now, at least we're going to be able to get the project done, We're going to be able to communicate to our bosses, all that, and we can move on. So there's constant sort of give and take that happens in these interactions.

44:07My last question is, what if a conflict goes badly and you are seized by shame, embarrassment, you're disappointed in yourself you're enraged and you can't sleep and you ruminate right like this is this is a real thing especially if you're a very sensitive person it's hard it's hard to shake it off and go about your day sometimes when things get heated yes absolutely and then you may want to write an email you may your your your instinct may be to try to oh my gosh i'm gonna make it better i'm gonna make it better i'm just gonna write in you know, you may sort of rush into impulsivity or catastrophizing all the things.

44:52Amy Gallo: Yes. First of all, I think the first thing to know is you are not alone. I mean, I can't tell you how many people I talk to, myself included, that are like have the 3 a.m., you know, anxiety carousel that we're like, okay, what am I worried about? Oh, that interaction, that went horrible, blah, blah, blah, you know, and I, you know, I don't, I don't personally get out of bed at 3 a.m. and write the email, although I compose it in my head, like, what? Oh, this is what I should have said. This question. Luckily, there's something about my brain where when I wake up in the morning, I'm like, Oh, wow, that was not clear thinking.

45:24Amy Gallo: Let me actually compose an entirely different email, or let me just move on. But I think when you get into that rumination, I mean, you have to use all the skills you use to manage your anxiety, right? Like perspective taking, I mean, it's one of my most one of my favorite tips around especially the rumination post a conflict is, will I care about this in a week? Will I care about this in a month? Will I even remember this in five years? Because the conflict can feel so urgent and present in that moment. But trying to look at it in the long view, sometimes you realize, wow, this is not going to be what I remember about this week.

46:01Amy Gallo: You know, talking to someone else outside the conflict, explaining what happened, trying to sort of normalize. People interact sometimes in not always nice ways and they survive and they move on and that's okay. And we all make mistakes, right? I have had many, many difficult conversations where I did a redo, right? Where I either blew up in the conversation, I said things I didn't mean, or I clammed up and didn't advocate for myself. And I had to say, okay, you know what? I want to go back. I'm not, that conversation didn't reach the conclusion I hoped it would. And I'm not going back immediately.

46:38Amy Gallo: I'm not going back at the next morning. But if I give myself a few days, and it's still top of mind for me, I will come back and say, you know what, can we readdress that I actually am not happy with where it ended up? Or I know I'm not happy with how I behaved in that conversation. I'd love to talk about it. That's not easy to do. But I do think that having that do over can be incredibly helpful. Because we're not always going to be our best selves in these conversations for all of the, you know, physiological reasons we've talked about, like, we are going to, to make mistakes, but it's okay to come back and have the conversation again.

47:15Amy Gallo: And chances are, the other person is doing some reevaluation as well. And hopefully, it's an easier conversation the next time. The last thing I will say is that, you know, a therapist once told me, when I was sort of in this rumination space around a particular issue with a friend was, you know, when you have an idea that you think will solve it, write it down, and then put it away for 24 hours, and then come back. So rather than sending the text, sending the email, thinking you're going to address it right away, like, give yourself 24 hours, it's sort of a version of the sleep on it advice, but really come back to it later and say, is this actually the right thing for the relationship?

47:55Amy Gallo: And I think bringing in other people, because it's easy to get stuck in your own head. But talk to the friend, talk to your partner, you know, talk to people outside the situation who can give you some perspective and who are willing to sort of be very straight with you about what they think will work and what won't. Well, as we wrap here, the rain is pouring down and I always love to think of heavy storms almost like a reset. Thank you so much, Amy. Thank you, Maure. It's always fun talking with you.

48:31That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Maura Aarons-Mele. Lots more to come in the next episode.

49:01I love you.