Managing Anxiety When Passion Drives Your Work with Poppy Jaman, OBE

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2:18The Anxious Achiever: That's all lowercase letters, notion.com slash achiever and try Notion today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. Hi, I'm Maura Aarons-Mele, host of The Anxious Achiever. Today, I'm going to bring you one of our most downloaded and one of my most favorite episodes from our archives. It's a classic. The Anxious Achiever has been at it for a long time. We have over 300 episodes, and honestly, they're all still more relevant than ever. You may hear details in this episode that remind you it's from another time, but I guarantee that the advice you get will be as crisp and meaningful and the stories as resonant as before.

3:06The Anxious Achiever: If you have a favorite episode of the show, let me know. I'd love to air it again or even re-record it for you fresh. Enjoy this classic Anxious Achiever episode.

3:21The Anxious Achiever: How are you? No, I mean it, really. How are you? Today's guest, Poppy Jaman, OBE, will tell us how she taught a bunch of high-priced lawyers to revolutionize their leadership style simply by asking that question in a different way. Poppy is so thoughtful and so much fun. It's because she understands what makes her stressed and she takes her self-care seriously. It's also because she is deeply mission-driven, but she's learned to manage her boundaries and have fun along the way. I wanted to explore the ways mission-driven work can create specific emotional challenges with Poppy and ask what it's like to devote your career to mission-driven work while caring for your mental health.

4:09The Anxious Achiever: The pressure to succeed in our careers affects so many of us and can contribute to anxiety. We work long hours to eventually win awards, get promotions, make more money, or become a recognized expert or well-known force in our industry. But of course, we work so hard for something deeper to accomplish our mission. And nowhere is that more clear than in the nonprofit world, a place where success may not always come with all the accolades and bonuses. And success may not even come at all if the problems you're tackling are just too complicated for one person or one organization to fix. Poppy Jeman, OBE, this means the queen honored her, was the founding CEO of Mental Health First Aid England.

4:57The Anxious Achiever: She's now program director for the City Mental Health Alliance, a network of thought leaders from the City of London-based organizations committed to improving and raising awareness of mental health in the workplace. And she's been fighting for much of her career to increase awareness in the space. So Poppy, tell us a little bit about the organization that you run now?

5:19Poppy Jaman: So I'm the chief executive of a social enterprise called the City Mental Health Alliance. We're in three countries and our vision is to create mentally healthy workplaces and inspire health creation. And that last bit is the most important bit to me, which is, you know, how do we ensure that workplaces are healthy places, are places where we come to to feel great about ourselves.

5:50The Anxious Achiever: One of the things I love about your approach, Poppy, is that you do frame mental health from a positive perspective. I actually, I had a quote, you said, I'm not mentally unwell anymore, but I want to maintain positive mental health and I want to prevent myself becoming unwell again. And we'll talk a little bit about your preventative routine later, but I love the idea of walking into work to feel good. I also find it a little bit fanciful, given, you know, the places I've worked. So what does a mentally healthy office look like?

6:25Poppy Jaman: For me, it's a culture. So it's a culture where you are able to bring your whole self to work. Often when we go to work, and I think we've all been in, most of us, I think, would have had experiences of being in jobs where you walk in through the front door, leaving a part of yourself at the front door. And sometimes that's appropriate. But quite a lot of the time, the part that we leave behind is something that we're embarrassed of or ashamed of, or actually isn't going to fit into that culture. So it's better to suppress it, hide it, and not bring it to the And I just feel that when you're segmenting yourself in that way, and actually work is a significant part of most of our lives, we will spend more time at work than we will at home.

7:21Poppy Jaman: Creating a culture where all of us can be our whole selves if we choose to in the workplace is really important.

7:29The Anxious Achiever: But where's the line? I mean, here's where the rubber meets the road for me. Of course, we want to bring our whole selves to work. But to me, that's taken on almost like a stock phrase status because there is a line, right? You need boundaries at work, especially if you're in a position of authority or you're trying to make it at work. Nobody wants to be a mess. So where is because sometimes our whole selves are messy.

7:55Poppy Jaman: They're really messy. What's the line? what I'm not saying is that you should be coming to work and being best mates with every single person because that's just not that's just not possible or crying you know if you're a crier like me yeah yeah yeah so if and you know so let me give you an example of what it is about you know I'm from a British Bangladeshi Muslim culture family background and you know being married more than once in my community is a huge stigma. And I'm on my third marriage. So actually, I've been in places, particularly in family settings and, you know, community settings and weddings where I've hidden that part of me.

8:39Poppy Jaman: And, you know, I've got kids from two different marriages. And actually that, and the reason why I'm expected to hide that in those scenarios is that there's shame attached to that. As a woman, I should be feeling ashamed for the different sexual partners, the different relationships I've been in. So in certain circumstances, I am expected to hide that. And actually, as I've got older, I've chosen to hide that to protect, I don't know, maybe older family members. But when I was a younger woman, That was definitely something that I was made to feel ashamed of. And actually, it was one of the things that contributed to my mental health issues.

9:22Poppy Jaman: It's the whole point of stigma, isn't it? So if depression, anxiety, which are common human experiences, one in four of us are going to experience a common mental health issue. And post this pandemic, I would imagine that one in one of us will have struggled with hard mental health issues over the next year. So if we have that as the data and the statistics, should we really be feeling ashamed of being poorly? And should mental health issues be associated with weakness so that we can't be in our body with our experiences because we're at work? because the consequence of that is that we don't come to work.

10:07Poppy Jaman: We avoid places that is going to make us feel uncomfortable, which in itself has a huge detrimental effect.

10:16The Anxious Achiever: How do you manage employee reviews, end-of-year reviews, disciplinary or sort of coaching issues with staff? What advice can you give listeners about how to lead with empathy, with the goal of creating that mentally healthy workplace?

10:36Poppy Jaman: I think there's two things I want to say on that. And the first thing is I would use the word compassion more than empathy more because empathy almost implies that you carry something up for somebody else, don't you? Fair enough. So I empathize.

10:51The Anxious Achiever: And also that you might be codependent, which of course I am because I take on everyone's pain. But yes, many of us. Yes, very good point.

10:59Poppy Jaman: Exactly. So I think I've learned that actually, instead of empathy, let's apply compassion. In answer to your question, look, when I set up Mental Health First Aid and we'd started getting bigger and I had, so one of the things that I put in, which is common to many organizations, is one-to-ones with your line manager. So every month, everybody had to have a one-to-one with their line manager. but traditionally those one-to-ones are set up for you know what's your what's your let's talk about your job like your work and your targets and your projects the first question I put in on

11:33The Anxious Achiever: the one-to-ones was how are you and um and um and it's it's fascinating because when when I

11:43Poppy Jaman: asked colleagues that so when new employees were coming on and they'd never had that experience of being asked, how are you in your one-to-one? And it was just a structure that was standard across the organization. Initially, it used to really throw people. People were a bit like, well, you know, I'm fine. And I'm like, no, no, no. So I really want to, because there's no point in us discussing your projects and your targets and the business objectives if you're not in a great place because, or, you know, a good place, because we're not, we're just not going to get the best. you're not going to be able to do the best that you want to.

12:18Poppy Jaman: So that was my very practical way of applying that. When I started working with city firms, and this was probably, let me think, about seven years ago, I was in a meeting and there was a number of law firms and professional services, you know, the corporates in the room, and we were discussing one-to-ones. And I shared exactly what I've just shared with you. And you could literally, like the breath got taken out out of the room and I and I and I didn't realize why and I said you know is that wrong is that like what what is what's the problem here and when we explored it someone eventually went can you imagine in a law firm you know a partner asking their team members how are you there'd be there'd be litigation there'd be like all these signs of what if what we're gonna do if they say that they're suicidal or you know and it's that by asking how are you are we actually making ourselves um are we then responsible do you know what i mean and it was liability yeah what liability yeah and i was like wow you guys like we're just this is just a human conversation but what's really interesting is um five six years on two of those same organizations have implemented a different a performance management system.

13:37Poppy Jaman: And the one-to-one, the number one question is, how are you?

13:40The Anxious Achiever: You know, I did read on your Wikipedia page, and it says that as a child, you wanted to become an electrical engineer. Now, you're not an electronics engineer. What happened? How did you become involved in mental health?

13:55Poppy Jaman: Oh, you know, so I, you know, I grew up in a very, a very working class my father my you know my granddad came to Portsmouth when he was in a young man and then my dad joined him when my when he was only a child and my mom and I joined my dad in in the UK when I was a baby so I grew up raised by a couple who were struggling themselves you know they didn't have a big community around them my mom's first language just definitely was not English. My dad was working around the clock to make ends meet here and support his family back home. So we grew up and then it was in the 80s when racism was really high.

14:41Poppy Jaman: And I grew up in Portsmouth, a city known for rating high as its racism incidences. So it was a difficult upbringing. in. And then there was this, you know, me in my teens, very ambitious, I wanted to travel the world, I didn't want to have children. And I wanted to work in engineering, which was a male dominated, you know, and still is very much male dominated industry. And I think that was probably in my youth, I, you know, I and I was I was an excellent science student. So I think all of those things just led me to feel like I wanted to not be in the life that I had grown up in. I had visions of not being in that town and not being in my family settings.

15:27But I also knew that an arranged

15:30Poppy Jaman: marriage was the way that my life was going to happen because there was no other cultural framework within my family. Just before I started college, I wasn't behaving in the way that my parents wanted me to behave. So I was taken to Bangladesh and I was forced to marry. How old were you? I was 17 at the time. So I did that marriage for about seven or eight years. But that's where the engineering dream went out of the window, because actually once married, there was no opportunity for education. And actually, I think by that time, my mental health issues were already there. So I don't think I was in a place to completely engage with life in the way that I had prior.

16:18Poppy Jaman: So then what happened was I had my first daughter. And when after I had her, actually, that's when I got my diagnosis of postnatal depression. But if you listen to my story, it probably started long before then. You know, here I was in my, I think I was 20, with a baby, with depression, in a marriage that I didn't want to be in and you know it wasn't a violent marriage it was just a marriage it was just that I'd never chosen him and he hadn't chosen me and here we were two people with a baby trying to trying to make it work and and we had as time went on the lesson we had in common um so then depression hit and actually that's when I realized that um how little services education was there for people that were going through mental health difficulties and everything felt quite scary because I had no idea what was happening to me I had you know my my family were trying to work out what was going on there was no mental health literacy in culturally accessible language context etc when I started therapy the therapist didn't really understand the cultural nuances that I was going through.

17:35Poppy Jaman: I didn't understand what was going on. So what was brilliant was I decided that I was going to get a job. And that was going to be the thing that helped me get routine, get financial health, be independent financially. And actually, it was the best decision I made because it wasn't medication or therapeutic services that supported me. It was going to a place of work that gave me meaning and purpose and identity and financial

18:14The Anxious Achiever: help. That's so interesting. Maybe that explains your affinity for focusing on the workplace, right? Because the work saved you in a way. Yeah, absolutely.

18:24Poppy Jaman: And you know, like I've only recently made those connections because you know when you sort of go through it and you think well you know how did this journey of workplace why is it such a and I think it is it is that it was meaningful having meaning and purpose in the form of work absolutely saved me Maura.

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23:16Poppy Jaman: you actually that was the first incident so since then i have i periodically have um flares that of depression, more depression than anxiety. The way that I feel when I get depressed is that I stop eating and I just lose my appetite. And I think I find it difficult to swallow. So something happens to my voice, which essentially means that my throat, so I start to close in, I think. And I think the emotional closing in represents itself in not being able to eat, not being able to swallow. So that's definitely a sign for me, I lose my appetite, I lose sleep. So I start to, you know, stay up later and later and wake up even earlier, I get very irritable.

24:05Poppy Jaman: So I get quite micromanaging. So I recognize that when I'm working with my colleagues, you know, at the moment, I'm like, yeah, great, you know, just let me know what you're doing. Whereas when I'm when I'm in that space, I'll be sending two or three emails, I'll be calling people going, you know, When's that document? So, yes, I'll micromanage, which I think is really important to notice, bearing in mind I'm an ambassador for mental health in the workplace. If I'm actually leading a team and people are feeling pressured by me and it's not it's not me in my authentic place. It's me. I'm well, you know, I get locked jaw.

24:42Poppy Jaman: So I start to get jaw ache. So my symptoms are physical, emotional, behavioral. And I think when I was in the darkest place, I just had no hope, Maura. So I couldn't see what the purpose of each day was. and actually if I didn't have a baby I don't know that I would have bothered to get up so the fact that I had responsibility for a young child really really helped me get up and do something because I had I had a role to play but I felt no emotional connection and that was really hard when you've got when you're a new mother and everybody around you is looking like so loved up and so so and you're sort of looking at this beautiful human being and not feeling anything it's such

25:42The Anxious Achiever: it's I just felt numb. Why do you think that people find the combination of mental health and workplace so scary?

25:54Poppy Jaman: There's so many, I think there's lots of different reasons. So one of them is that there is this idea that if you have a mental health issue, then you are somehow weak. And with that comes judgment, doesn't it? So if you're a high profile CEO in a top bank, you're expected to be all the characteristics that we associate with that but we don't associate weakness with that we don't associate incompetence or lack of productivity with that and when we talk about mental health issues the images that conjure up in our minds because of the way society has set us up is someone that is not worthy that someone's not capable and it's far far from the truth

26:45The Anxious Achiever: Right. And what's what's amazing to me is when you were talking about how you felt faking it around the baby is how many leaders I've spoken to. And I've experienced this myself who are in their dream job, quote, and yet feel every day like they're faking it. Like they are putting on a face about, quote, being a leader and yet come home and feel so empty inside. I want to ask you, Poppy, while I've got you, I mean, listeners have come in asking about what it's like to have anxiety or depression or struggle with your mental health when you work in a caring field or when you work in mission driven work, you know, either at a not for profit organization or you're a carer or caregiver.

27:29The Anxious Achiever: I'd love to drill down a little bit because you have such a unique vantage point of being a professional workplace observer, but also having run many social mission organizations. How you address mentally healthy work differently when it's a nonprofit organization or a mission driven organization? And are there certain pitfalls that people should think about when they're leading those organizations?

27:54Poppy Jaman: Yes, I mean, absolutely. And I think when you look at our NHS, for example, and when you look at the data of the people in the care industry that are experiencing a common mental health issue, but often will not go and seek support. And it's not about the shame or it's about this idea that you should be extra strong because you're designed to do this job. And so there's almost this kind of, you know, I'm the doctor, I'm the nurse, I'm the caregiver, I'm, you know, this is my job and I cannot. So the self judgment that comes with that and the self standards that come with that is really interesting.

28:39Poppy Jaman: So I think that people that are in the sector that you just described, there's a slightly different risk, which is to do with you give so much of yourself. And it's not just work, it's your life. And you have this carry this enormous responsibility that you only you've given it to yourself. It's, you know, it's completely self-indulgent on some level. You've decided that you're on this mission. You're going to solve this world problem and it's not work. You're going to live your life trying to achieve it. So where is the break in that then? When do you have friendship time? When do you have social time?

29:20Poppy Jaman: And I've been very conscious of that. So my work revolved in my first big career was race equality and mental health. And I created Mental Health First Aid and it's a social enterprise and now City Mental Health Alliance. And then underneath that, there's been voluntary roles. And there's always a mission in my life. I don't know how else to be, Wara. So I guess there'll always be a mission. It's just who I am. But when I hang out with my mates, we don't talk about work. And often my friends are also my colleagues. Because actually, when you're living a work life that's so mission driven, all the people that you meet are people that you want to hang on to.

30:03Poppy Jaman: so they you I've got a big network of friends but when we're on holiday time when we're when we're on social time we just we've naturally all evolved to protect our private time for no work conversations no solving the world conversations no none of that it's just about fun when I'm with my kids um and my family I very rarely talk about work you know to the point that they're a bit like Like, oh, we saw you on that radio interview or we saw you on TV. Weren't you going to tell us? Like, when are you going to tell us? But those are my boundaries because I really want to be able to just hang out with my kids and just be mum.

30:45Poppy Jaman: It's one of the things that I learned early on is how do I ensure that my whole life isn't a mission? actually which relationships are protected and my marriage is protected and my kids relationships are protected and my best friends relationships are protected and when I go to the pub and things like that you know where in the evenings I just will not engage in work conversation and people find that quite frustrating but after a couple of occasions they work out that there's no point

31:15The Anxious Achiever: going there. It's funny because I think sometimes also it's different if you're if you're a sort of direct clinical caregiver, but many people who, like you, have worked at large non-profit organizations that are very mission-driven, I find have created almost a persona for themselves. They will say to themselves, well, I've given up money, maybe, that I could have earned if I were in the private sector. I've made this choice to live this life, and this is who I am, and therefore for I must be mentally strong as well. Like almost like there's a persona that they build around themselves for living the mission.

31:59Poppy Jaman: Yeah, so the way I looked at that was as a single parent for most of being on my third marriage, you know, the first two single parenting was a big part of my parenting experience. And I remember thinking, actually, and I didn't want to fall into the trap of being taking part-time reducing my hours at work and then still doing the full-time job and not getting paid enough so you know we know all the issues around gender pay gap in society and I didn't want to well I couldn't afford to I have two children and I wanted them to not be having the same experience that I had had growing up in a very poor family.

32:44Poppy Jaman: So actually, it was really important to me to be financially healthy. And so for me, the way I looked at that was, you know, I have thrown my whole self into my work and my mission. And that's very fulfilling. But it came at the expense of time with my children. And it came at the expense of missing out on lots of, you know, I see my sister-in-laws at the moment spending time with their little ones and I think I don't even remember that with the girls and I feel really guilty like the girls sometimes say to you did we do this and I and I think on the side I don't remember because I wasn't present for quite a lot of those early days and I was battling with my mental health issues so I was surviving and you know and the girls have got don't get me wrong a very lovely narrative of their childhood so they've got that You know, we did all the things that you do.

33:41Poppy Jaman: But the way I look at it is how dare I, when I get unwell, I get very angry. And I get, you know, how dare I be ill or how dare I not achieve or how dare this project doesn't go well because it came at the expense of being a mom.

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37:29The Anxious Achiever: Monarch is like having a financial advisor in your pocket. It has easy-to-read diagrams that help me visualize exactly where my money goes each month. And it has investment views so I can compare my portfolio, say, to how the S &P is doing. all kinds of great tools that help me frankly take some of the emotions out of money and make it more practical and working for me. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent, but Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases, and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can write your own money story with Monarch. Use the code achiever at monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch Core at half off just$50.

38:12The Anxious Achiever: That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. So what are your what are your tips? You know, especially for people listening who, you know, in this world where many people are experiencing acute and active anxiety for the first time all day long? How do you keep yourself mentally well?

38:35Poppy Jaman: Do you know, so I, particularly in this current climate, I will ask myself, I genuinely ask myself how I am. It was one of the tricks that I learned in coaching, which was check in on yourself, ask yourself how you are, answer the question honestly. So, you know, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling ecstatic, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling frustrated. And if you can't answer it, because that's the other thing that happens to me more is I get mind blocked, like I can't think, which is which is just you know so I I don't I don't know how to access my feelings sometimes it can take quite a few minutes to get to the bottom of how I am and so name the feeling and if I'm comfortable I share that with usually my husband but most of the time I just write it down and then I close that that the notebook and I leave that and I get on with my day So listening being a form of acceptance, which is really liberating.

39:40Poppy Jaman: It's just a version of that. It's just practicing that on yourself. So listening to how I'm feeling without the need to change it, without the need to judge it, just accept and acknowledge it by writing it down. So that's one of the things that I do fairly regularly. And I do it to maintain my positive mental health, not to counter the fact that, you know, counter me getting unwell, if that makes sense. It's actually a good practice to keep me just checking. And it's lovely to write down, I feel really happy, I feel really chuffed that I finished whatever it is that I finished, because we don't often celebrate ourselves either.

40:20Poppy Jaman: So true. So that's one of the things I do. The other thing that I do is I have a well-being toolkit. So I described to you earlier what my, how stress mental health issues present themselves, you know, sleep, eating, irritability. So I know what my signs are, but I don't just reel those off. I know those because I've written them down. And then on the flip side of the same page, I have a well-being toolkit and this is the things so create another list on the days that you feel great just jot down the things that make you feel great and for me it's things like having a chat with one of my best friends about nothing in particular you know going out for a run is always great um swimming um just hanging out and winding my kids up is quite fun just you know teasing and playing silly game, being childish and playful, that side of my character is only really with the girls.

41:23Poppy Jaman: So I love that time. And that's that's so two sides of the same page. One side is your stress signature. One side is your well-being toolkit and different days. So when I'm so then the check in that I talked about, you know, checking in, how am I? If I if I notice that actually for three check ins in a row, for example, my mood has been low or it's been a negative feeling, then I will go straight to my well-being toolkit and do one of the things that takes my fancy. The great thing about that approach is it takes out the decision making process. Like I don't have to sit and work out what I've got to do, because that in itself, when you've got a mental health issue, you lose some of your decision making.

42:06The Anxious Achiever: And you're an unreliable narrator sometimes as well. Yeah. Yeah.

42:11Poppy Jaman: And that I have found really, and it's almost ingrained in me. I don't have to look at my piece of paper anymore. It's almost like I know now what it is because it's so well practiced. But that's what, you know, it's my unique way of taking care of my and maintaining my mental wellness. Yeah.

42:32The Anxious Achiever: Well, Poppy, thank you so much. I wish you good health and lots of fun. Yeah, thank you. And same to you, Maura. It's been really lovely chatting.

42:46The Anxious Achiever: That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Maura Aarons-Mele. Lots more to come in the next episode.