NBA Great Kevin Love on Trying to Achieve His Way Out of Depression

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2:51The Anxious Achiever: You may hear details in this episode that remind you it's from another time, but I guarantee that the advice you get will be as crisp and meaningful and the stories as resonant as before. If you have a favorite episode of the show, let me know. I'd love to air it again or even re-record it for you fresh. Enjoy this classic Anxious Achiever episode.

3:22The Anxious Achiever: Today's guest is an idol to my kids and to many kids and adults around the world. He's an Olympic gold medalist, five-time NBA all-star. He's one of the big three with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving, who helped the Cleveland Cavaliers reach four straight NBA finals, including a 2016 championship. Not only that, he will earn about$31 million this year. and yet Kevin Love is often depressed and anxious. It's in his chemistry. Love has written eloquently about his experience and he's been in the press talking about this but before he started talking about it he feared he'd be seen as weak or that he wouldn't be taken as seriously on the court.

4:14The Anxious Achiever: He was worried he would be shamed. Now of course none of that has happened. Kevin Love is a role model to so many, and he's helped spur a discussion in the National Basketball Association and in pro sports in general. Recently, NBA commissioner Adam Silver even admitted that many players in his league are anxious and that the league needs to take action. Our heroes have depression and clinical anxiety. Remember that. So I'm thrilled to have Kevin Love join us today to talk about mental health, success, and the journey in between. So you've been public about your struggle with depression. And I'm curious, you know, was that a hard decision to make to go public?

5:01It was a very hard decision because I feel like, you know, it was even more heightened and even more under a microscope because as athletes and as an athlete, we're looked at as superheroes. I know that from growing up and, you know, having these superstars in my eyes like Charles Barkley or Shaquille O 'Neal, or even, you know, before that with Larry Bird and Matthew Johnson, Michael Jordan, I'm looking like these guys are indestructible. Nothing can hurt them. Growing up as a young man, I thought to expose that it was just going to put me in a light where people were going to look at me as weak.

5:32Not only my teammates or my counterparts, but, you know, as I got older, it was, you know, general managers and ownership and things that were going to really affect my livelihood, let alone the general public. So for me, it was something that before I pressed send on my first article with the Players Tribune, I was really, I guess, scared would be the right word and uneasy and had a lot of anxiety. But, you know, it was it just came a point in time and a perfect storm for me in that year that I just didn't want to live in the shadows anymore.

6:06The Anxious Achiever: Why? Like, what was the moment that made you think, forget it, I just have to talk. Yeah, I mean, I had, you know, a lot of pillars in my life had, you know, whether it be my, you know, my love life or my family life or professional life with basketball, even just, you know, at home, like, you know, where your mind can play tricks on you. And if you have a chemical imbalance, or you've had so much anxiety, or even social anxiety, or you're having really bad bout of depression that can last several months, I, you know, I had that crutch of basketball really taken away from me. My safe place was taken away from me because in November of 2017, I had a very public panic attack where I had left the court.

6:46Nobody really knew what was going on. You know, I ended up in the ground, on the ground in our head athletic trainer's office, asked me for air, went to the hospital after the fact. And some of my teammates and people that were around the team in that orbit had seen me have this episode. So I was really, really nervous And really, it was the element of shame that crept in as well. And then feeling like I needed to hide. And so when that safe base got taken away, that was very, very tough for me. It sent me even into a deeper spiral. And while basketball at the time wasn't going great, I still, it's funny, ended up making the all-star team.

7:23So I was still able to achieve and I was still able to get to a certain point. I just wrote an article in September where I said I was trying to achieve my way out of depression. And it didn't matter really what was happening to me on the basketball court in that year. It just, to me, just all seemed inconsequential. That, to me, was even more scary because this is what I grew up loving and is my first love and is something that I just enjoy doing so much. So that all led up to that point in March where I wanted to share my story. But there are a number of other things that it got a lot worse before it got better, but things that led to saying like, OK, not only for myself, but just that one kid.

8:03or that one person that I could affect, it could be really, you know, a special thing. And also on the other side of it, in a selfish way, I wanted it to be therapy for myself as well. I was done, you know, just being tucked away and compartmentalizing and just not speaking about my problems.

8:20The Anxious Achiever: It's funny, you use such strong words like weak and shame, you know, and it's, you know, when I told my kids that I was interviewing you, they were starstruck, like they would never think of you is weak. Like you, you are a hero to them. And it's so interesting to hear someone like you use those words. Yeah, no, and it continued to see it more and more, not just in the athlete space, but people that are in the public eye. And that's how I just know it makes me, I guess relieved isn't the right word, but it makes me feel like I'm really doing meaningful work. And it makes me, gives me a sense of happiness and belonging, knowing that while it's sad that other people are struggling at this capacity in a lot of ways worse.

9:03But, you know, these athletes, and I mentioned some of my counterparts, they've come to me, not in a public setting, but just individually asking for help or somebody within arm's distance saying, hey, a family member, a best friend is really struggling. Like, you know, what did you do? What resources did you have? What resources do we have in the NBA? What resources, you know, do you think we need in the NFL, MLB, and so on and so forth. So to that extent, it makes, you know, what I'm doing, I know we'll get into the fund at some point, but it just makes what we're doing and what we're speaking about.

9:35And initially, I think the biggest thing is just the stigma, continuing to speak about it. And at the end of the day, you're so much less likely to detect something or something's going on if you don't talk about it. So that's what, and especially with youth uprise too, like Parkland, Florida was a major part of my story because it was all-star weekend of 2018. And again, you know, I had basketball taken away from me in that new year, which is the year I had the panic attack, but I had broken my left hand. So I didn't have that emotional outlet. So Parkland, Florida happened. I conceptualized what was, you know, happening with the shooter and the parents involved and the victims.

10:11Like that to me was psychological warfare in itself.

10:14The Anxious Achiever: Why? Like what, what triggered, what about that moment triggered it in you? Just the, it's just like it, you know, everything that's going on now too. It's just the absurdity of our modern condition. It doesn't feel psychologically healthy in any way. No, it can't be the longterm, especially like if you consider, you know, you have COVID, you have social injustice, you have the wildfires that, you know, ravaged the West coast where, where I grew up, whether it be, I was born in California or grew up in Portland, Oregon. And then my girlfriend is from Vancouver, BC, where the air quality was the worst in the world during that point.

10:47And, you know, Washington, where I spent so much of the time driving up i5 and watching mariners games and sonics games you know and then you look at the election and and you have you turn on the tv and no matter where you look or you get these updates on your phone or you know you have to mute notifications because these you don't these long-term effects i don't even think we understand the long-term effects of these 24 7 365 the news outlets that just yeah just pumping just negativity into you at all times i got to imagine the long-term effects of that especially on kids who are so susceptible to change and you know with bipolar or with major depressive disorder or schizophrenia like all these mental health disorders your brain and the chemistry in your brain and those markers are changing way before your behavior so for kids to see that it's just got to be and then taken away from their schools and their social life, the long-term effects have to be just really, really, you know, extraordinary in a bad context.

11:53The Anxious Achiever: Let's talk about dread, because I think that dread is something that people who have depression are so familiar with, but it's not something that's talked about. And it is a feeling that spikes cortisol and also makes day-to-day life hard. And you wrote something When I read this, I thought, oh, my gosh, I love this man. I have to talk to this man. Because you wrote, even in the best of times, my default setting was often dread. That's just the way I've been wired since I was a kid. It's like there's a constant low-level threat that you can feel in the pit of your stomach. I mean, oh, gosh, I can relate to that.

12:32The Anxious Achiever: But the question is, of course, how did you achieve all that you have if you have the constant feeling of dread? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And I read a book called Lincoln's Melancholy last year that had a profound effect on me and where his depression and his melancholy and everything that he went through actually drove him to do great things. And it just showed me that in a lot of ways, it can be a gift and a curse. And in a lot of ways, people have changed the way that they look at mental illness and being well, because in that time and, you know, 30s, 1830s, 40s, 50s, 60s, he, you know, it was looked at as sometimes something that you could achieve great things.

13:16And that sense of dread has never left me. I still feel it when I wake up in the morning every day. And I, you know, whether I do my meditation or I work out or I just do everything I can to change my relationship with it or make it seem just farther away. But I talked about being exhausted too, like that just endure mentality and like always running on empty and always being tired. And it's just so incredibly exhausting. But the only way I saw through it was to try and achieve myself out of it.

13:47The Anxious Achiever: Do you talk to your dread and your anxiety and your depression? Do you tell them to go away? Or like, what do you say to them? Yeah. And yeah, so it's probably not, you know, something I could say on this podcast. But it's, yeah, I've had that conversation with it. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. It's something that is, yeah, it's, we can say off air, but yeah, of course it's, it's, and even just passing the mirror test, seeing myself and looking at myself in the mirror and just saying, you're not good enough. I've thought a lot about regret and I've thought a lot about imposter theory, not feeling worthy, everything that I achieved, not feeling worthy.

14:21So I had to, you know, I had to achieve the next thing and I had, you know, it was common to feel like I always needed to prove myself. I just had no solid footing. And I don't know if you like

14:33The Anxious Achiever: that as a kid, where you raised that? Yeah. Oh, my God, I was no and it was just something that was, I think, inherent in me, I just always felt a need to prove myself. That's still something that I gripe with still something that I fight and go to therapy for. And, you know, those conversations are still really hard to have. And it's something that I have to work on every day. and that feeling in the pit of my stomach that that low level threat that I talked about is still constantly there, but I've learned to live with it and change my relationship with it. But it's, listen, it's just something that I've accepted that it's never gonna go away.

15:09And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with putting in the work to better myself and therefore pay it forward.

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19:37The Anxious Achiever: Well, let's talk about performance, right? Because I was thinking about this when I was thinking about you as an athlete and that you have coaches like a lot of us sort of have managers or CEOs. Right. But that ultimately you also are responsible for your individual performance and you're on a team. You've got a lot of interpersonal dynamics going on. Yes, we do. So like, in a way, do you think that for you being in touch with what makes you tick makes it almost better and easier for your coaches and your teammates to work with you and understand you? Like, is there a secret that people who understand their mental health can like unlock in terms of being a better teammate, a better?

20:20Oh, yeah, 100%. Because, and I've started to talk about this, you know, when people ask me, like, what is different? What do you feel now? What's the thing that's changed the most? And I said, I think it's more than anything, just how comfortable I feel in my own skin, right? Like being unapologetically myself and walking into a room and just being me at all times. Like that is so freeing. And I think it not only affects the mind, but it affects the body as well. It just calms, you know, pretty much every part of you down. While you still have that threat in the pit of your stomach, you're just yourself and you learn to love yourself more.

21:01And yeah, there was so many times I couldn't separate myself from performance. performance. Like you set this highest goal, and then you reach this goal, and then you get used to this new version of normal. And then that wears off, and you have the same brain. And then that's when you get depressed or get anxiety or these negative spirals happen. But I've worked on that quite significantly.

21:25The Anxious Achiever: And also, I imagine like if your team understands that, if your coach understands that in a way it can make things easier. For sure. And I think I read Bob Iger's book in the middle of actually right at the beginning of COVID. And he just talked about not only being at Disney, but his whole entire upbringing through his professional life, he talked about vulnerability. And that hit a major chord with me because I feel like I've been able to, you know, play my cards and I'm able to admit when I've, you know, messed up and where I can get better. And I always say like, only by admitting who we are, do we get what we want?

22:08And I fully, fully believe that. And I think it's made me a better person overall. Teammate, you know, easier to coach, a better boyfriend, a better dog, dad, you know, like whatever it is, I've become overall. Well, your dog loves you no matter what. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's that's I said something the other day, like dogs show you like so much what love looks like. So that again, like that's a whole other thing. Like, you know, as far as being a therapy dog, my dog has been incredible.

22:36The Anxious Achiever: One of the things that you talked about feeling in your panic attack was that you were winded. It was like all of a sudden you weren't in as good a shape as you really were. You know, like it was a true detriment. I want you to talk a little bit about the relationship between sports endorphins and managing your mental health. You said that athletics helped you get out of your pain tank. Yes. How does it work for you? Well, I think early on, there was no emotional balance for me. I was wrapped up in basketball, and that was it. And I am into so many different things. I like to think of myself as a Renaissance man.

23:13No, but just have so many different hobbies and things that I'm into growing up in the world has opened up for me since I've changed my relationship with basketball being just the only thing that I am. The world has opened up for me in a major way and opened up different sources of happiness. But at the time, I couldn't wrap my mind around anything other than basketball as a way to fix myself. Like early on, I had no time for schoolwork, you know, for my little sister who's five years younger than me. Like if it didn't align with basketball and just straight achievement, then, you know, and making it to the NBA, it just wasn't, I'm not going to say important to me, but wasn't something that I was, you know, wasn't linear enough for me.

23:53I couldn't take any sidesteps. And I had, I was actually, you know, I was a B student.

23:57The Anxious Achiever: Yeah. I was going to go to a UCLA or North Carolina, which ended up being my two top schools. I picked UCLA, and that was going to be my quickest route to make it to my dream. But my anxiety really, in a lot of ways, came from the pressure that I put on myself. And at times, it felt almost unbearable, but I knew that there was a bigger goal at hand. And sometimes it worked against me, but sometimes it was the gift that kept me going. It was that constant buzzing that just kept me going, for better or for worse. But I'm curious, like if you have a kid who's like you were, because your dad was a basketball player, but your kid is like, this is my dream.

24:34The Anxious Achiever: You did a great video I watched with J.J. Redick. And J.J. Redick said that he said the thing he loves doing most, which is basketball, also brings him the most anxiety. And it sounds like that's true for you. I think that's true for a lot of gifted overachievers. Like if your kid is that person where the thing that they love the most is the thing that brings them the most anxiety, how do you handle that? I think about that a lot. I think you have to have that emotional outlet that is outside the realm of your sport or your perfection or your love. And no matter what that is, performing on stage or, you know, music or no matter what it is, I feel like celebrating, you know, yourself, maybe sure you're giving yourself a pat on the back.

25:20you know, allowing people to give credit where credit's due, but also understanding the lessons in failure as well. Like I've always been extremely competitive and there's lessons in everything. But, you know, I do think that as a kid and I look back now, the depression aspect of it stole the moments of being happy and proud, you know, in the moments when I should be happiest and proudest.

25:45The Anxious Achiever: Like when? Can you share an example? Oh, I mean, there was, you know, so many times like I here I'm going to give myself credit, you know, as an individual, I was national player and national athlete of the year, my senior year in high school, but I didn't allow myself, I said, it wasn't good enough, because we didn't win a state championship that year, we won the previous year. And we had lost. But after the fact, you know, I achieved all these individual accolades. But you know, that, you know, there was always that one thing missing, there was always that dangling carrot, which was just outside of what I considered success.

26:17I regret just, and you know, some of it was out of my hands, but regret losing that game so much. And I wish I would have done this. And it's so easy to connect the dots looking back. And I think that's the only way you could do it. But sometimes those moments and diving into those can be, can be scary. And I think misleading, like that's, it's pretty misleading because as I mentioned, there's a lot of stuff to be learned in failure and in losses, but I didn't, I don't think I had the presence of mind at the time to, to truly understand that.

26:49The Anxious Achiever: What's the relationship between, in your mind, masculinity, or at least our version of masculinity right now and the fear of failure? Well, thankfully that's, that's changing. I do believe that. I think, you know, the willingness to try, you know, new paths or new ways to even speak about mental health, but just acknowledge that in young people, the numbers continue to rise, whether that be youth suicide, we're starting to diagnose a lot of these things earlier, like when it comes to major depressive and acute anxiety, and we're we are diagnosing 50 % by the age of 14 and 75 % by the age of 24.

27:31So we're starting, thankfully, to catch these things earlier, therefore able to treat it. True.

27:38The Anxious Achiever: But do you think that driven young boys and young men have a different relationship with like, do you think that the 18 year old Kevin Love, who's losing his high school, his state championship, is feeling any less pressure or is feeling any less like a failure than you did? Like, I think I think it might be more. That's the problem. So if you look at it from that way, you know, it totally is. And, you know, here I am sitting with my headphones plugged into my computer. And whether it's that or my phone in the social media platform or you make one mistake, it can feel like the end of the world.

28:14There is major consequences to that. And it's got to be tough for that. Yeah, that idea of masculinity and failure and not allowing yourself to have an emotional outlet. I certainly didn't when I was young. And that's probably why I have so many gray hairs at the age of 32. too. But the, and I'll say this too, like when I was growing up, you know, a lot of, a lot of my pain was in some ways pushed on to other people. I wasn't transferring this awful feeling down to them, like almost that feeling of better them than me, or we're both going to struggle in this together. So like, I wasn't a bully.

28:51I was never a bully by any means I was actually, you know, very sweet and had good character, but when I was in a group setting, I wanted to be accepted so bad. I think that idea of acceptance can teeter and there's good and bad in both, but it can be very ugly thing when you're on the other side of it. And I used to not act out, but in a way, like try and be funny and be the, be the class clown at somebody else's expense. And then not knowing that it was going to hurt both of us. But then you would catch me in, you know, a very personal one-on-one or very small group setting. And you realized, and I realized like, man, like And why do I feel the need to be accepted by things that I'm making up in my head?

29:33Like, just be you. Just be a good person with good values and know that you're not only hurting this person, but you're hurting yourself as well. I think if we were able to tackle these things and able to have these conversations as young men, I think we'd be better off.

29:49The Anxious Achiever: I feel like sports gives men an outlet. Even grown-up men who aren't professional, it gives you an outlet to be emotional. emotional and I always joke that men are allowed to love their team and their dog, you know, they're allowed to cry about their dog and their sports team, but nothing else. Yep. Yep. Nothing else. Did you ever feel like, um, once you sort of came out about your depression in the, in the league that you would get any, um, that you would be not in the cool kids group anymore or that you'd get? Absolutely. Absolutely. But I, you know, it comes a point in time where, you know and I have I have a very long leash but once you know it comes to like a tipping point or a breaking point for me I'm I can you know have anger and rage and that's how you know I always had some place to go when I was going to have an anxiety attack and that escape allowed it to manifest in different ways not healthy but I mean you'd go to the court if you were going to have an anxiety attack well not only that or I'd have you know I'd go to my room and I'd you know scream into a pillow or punch a pillow or, you know, something to that extent.

30:55The Anxious Achiever: Okay. I think a lot of feedback is subtle. Do you know what I mean? It's like a lot of racism is subtle. A lot of sexism is subtle. A lot of mental health judgments are subtle, especially in a professional context, right? And I think in this day and age, very few people would be, you know, like outright, you know, he's crazy. I'm not talking to him. but that there might have been like more subtle cues or digs. Like I've experienced that. And I'm just curious if you experience that, if it's almost a feeling that people are almost quietly seeing you differently. Yeah, no, I think so. But then I also feel like we talk about that performance piece of it all and how, you know, also the anxiety or whatever it may be driving you.

31:43I think a lot, I think the number in professional sports, But I think the number in the NBA is very, very high for people that are experiencing mental health issue, even, you know, especially if you if you have a long career, like in at the end of the day, everybody's going to grieve and experience loss as well. So that is inevitable. It's, you know, father time is underfeited. There's something that's going to happen in your life that is going to be absolutely tragic at the hand of loss. So I think, of course, there's people that don't quite understand it. Like they don't understand, as you mentioned, you know, racism or sexism.

32:18And I think that ignorance can read for a lot of unhealthy thoughts or unhealthy, very subtle cues that people and you see that today with a lot that's going on. I think it's the same thing with mental health. Or they do understand it.

32:31The Anxious Achiever: I think they do understand it and they don't want to deal with it in themselves. And so it's easier to sludge other people. Yeah. Right. No, exactly. And then it's really like, okay, you got to point that finger back at you. Or like, you know, I always said like the mirror test. That's why I started going to therapy because I'm just like, listen, things are just not adding up. So I really need to talk to somebody. I put that off for years and years and years and years. You know, I love mushrooms. I am fascinated by them. One of my favorite things to do is in New Hampshire to go on mushroom exploring walks with a renowned naturalist, Riley McHugh.

33:09The Anxious Achiever: Riley has taught me to put on my seeing eyes. And when I do, I see purple mushrooms and red mushrooms, big mushrooms, gross mushrooms, cute mushrooms. And I was thinking about the holidays upcoming and how we use mushrooms as a decorative theme. Think about it. You probably have a mushroom ornament or a little mushroom figure that you may put out sometime in the fall or holidays, mushrooms. If I had an online store, I would sell all manner of decorative mushrooms. I know it sounds silly. And I would do it on Shopify. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable holiday selling season at every stage.

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34:31The Anxious Achiever: And I love when the seasons change to spend a good amount of time, you know, moving out, reviewing my summer stuff, bringing in my fall stuff. I live in New England, so I love a great sweater. I love a great tweed blazer. And now I have a way with Vinted that I can sell clothes I no longer want, but I know someone else will love and buy some new clothes. It really solves a problem for me, which is running out of closet space and also feeling guilty about buying new clothes. And it's really, really fun. The other thing is that there's no selling fees. So you keep everything you earn. And when you have that extra money, you could buy some new clothes.

35:10The Anxious Achiever: Not to mention a less cluttered closet is an awesome feeling. Let's face it, especially when the weather is getting colder. Listing items on Vinted is quick and simple. And once an item sells, Vinted creates the prepaid shipping ladle just for you. So if you're ready to clean out your closet and make some extra money, download the Vinted app for free and start listing. With no seller fees, you keep every dollar you earn. That's right, download the Vinted app for free. Start selling with no seller fees, keep what you earn and have some fun giving your old clothes a new wonderful home and maybe bringing in some new clothes with that extra money.

35:48The Anxious Achiever: You know, the other day I was talking with my friend who is both certified financial planner and a financial therapist, we were talking about money and emotions. Money is way more than dollars and cents. It's emotional, right? And I'm trying to teach my kids to have healthier emotions around money than I did. But I'm getting better every year. And part of it is that I use Monarch. Monarch simplifies, identifies, and helps me have a plan for my money. Monarch is like having a financial advisor in your pocket. It has easy to read diagrams that help me visualize exactly where my money goes each month.

36:33The Anxious Achiever: And it has investment views so I can compare my portfolio, say, to how the S &P is doing. All kinds of great tools that help me, frankly, take some of the emotions out of money and make it more practical and working for me. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent, but Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases, and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can write your own money story with Monarch. Use the code Achiever at Monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch Core at half off just$50. That's$50 off your first year at Monarch.com with code achiever.

37:15The Anxious Achiever: I want to talk about overwork. So one of the things that I think is very interesting about anxiety and depression is that anxious achievers tend to put a lot of those feelings into overwork. And I'm curious, like, I get the sense that you probably were really hard worker, really motivated, but like, as you've sort of become healthier and gotten to know yourself better, do you put limits on maybe how much you train or, you know, like when I've had a good enough day, I'm going to call it quits now? And has that behavior changed for you? Or like, what's your relationship to overwork and perfectionism?

37:50No, for sure. I think that's a great question. And it's not asked enough, because as an athlete, but this could be in corporate finance or corporate, you know, whatever the industry may be, it really transcends. And that idea of, you know, achieving yourself out of it can be, it can really drain you and make that exhaustion, you know, go even further. It's a constant, you know, running on empty and that IV bag is over and you're not feeling any better, but it's, it's always what's next. Would this allow for the depression to feel more mute? Would this solve it? It is a true gift and a curse, but like that fame, that achievement, that, that idea of money, it just never, never filled the void.

38:35So now what, what I do is attack what you love, like do what you love and, you know, chase, I would say chase the game and everything you love will chase you right back.

38:45The Anxious Achiever: I want to ask you real quick about social anxiety because you mentioned it before. What's it like to be famous and have social anxiety? I was just asked this question the other day. I did a really cool Zoom with a number of athletes from UCLA. So I got to speak to people from my alma mater and they asked a similar question. And I told them, I was like, listen, I was in Minnesota for six seasons And I've also played in Cleveland for six seasons. And both places live vicariously through their sports. They love their sports. They love their sports stars. So I was the star of the Timberwolves in Minnesota for a long time.

39:23But my social anxiety was so bad that I never really was able to enjoy the city and what it had to offer. And even go outside, I had my little pockets where I would go. I had a couple of restaurants and then I would just be basically shut in in my apartment or in my room by myself.

39:43The Anxious Achiever: And that's very unhealthy. It's so sad. Yeah, I know. That's what I talk about that idea of regret. It was it's it's so sad. And it's, you know, I remember, you know, my friends that were there was like, come on, let's just go. And I'm just like, ah, you know, I just I couldn't get myself to do it. And it's that, you know, what I felt was I know people can relate to this is like you're sitting at a meal. you know, you're in a booth and, you know, there's people around you and you always feel like eyes are on you. And to me, having that social anxiety, I felt like I always just needed to look down and look at my food.

40:19No eye contact. I'm doing something wrong, even though I wasn't. I'm doing something wrong. Somebody's going to catch me doing something. I have shame. Let's get out of here. Where's the nearest exit? And let's go.

40:30The Anxious Achiever: That is a terrible way to live. It was a terrible existence. And it's funny, because it at UCLA, it was like this, you know, I did really enjoy my time there. And I was around people that I really enjoyed and still have relationships to this day. But like, sometimes like, you have this facade that you try to keep up. And that's really, really hard to do. Plus being so tall, right? Like you stick out. Yeah, no, for sure. And that's why everybody goes, where's the where's the worst place for you to possibly go? I said, without a doubt airports. Once you get like the security line in an airport, listen, that gives everybody anxiety and everybody like, all right, when are we going to get through this?

41:08Am I going to make my flight? What's going to happen? Is it going to get pushed back? Am I going to have a good seat? Who am I sitting next to? Like that whole thought process and idea process creeps in. And I think it puts everybody on a little bit of high alert. But for me, it's like massive, massive high alert. Like in the worst thing that happens, and I know this is the worst thing that happens. It's not bad at all. You get stopped and somebody's nice and says hello. But I'm like, God, don't bring any attention to me. I just want to get to my place. I want to sit down with my headphones. I want to put my hat real low.

41:37And of course they're like, oh, who's the huge guy in the hoodie? Like, you know, so yeah, it was just, that's why I look back and say, I wish I just would have enjoyed these moments and just enjoy the thrill of being young in this sport that I love and, you know, having people admire you.

41:56The Anxious Achiever: Are you able to savor joy? I am now. Wow. Mazel tov though. Like let's take a moment. Right. I think, yeah, just honestly, it took me so long to really say, okay, I'm allowed to, I'm allowed to, it's that imposter theory again. I'm allowed to have joy. I'm allowed to give myself a little bit of credit. While I'll never truly feel like I've done enough, especially in basketball. I have allowed myself to say, okay, I have achieved, you know, quite a bit in my career and I will continue to, because I feel really good in my body. But like, it's like when you're young, I remember I knew something was wrong, but not to the obviously extent I do now, but I'd like look up and it was almost like the clouds would part.

42:46And then it's like the sun hit my face and I would feel this immense joy and then it would just close up on me. It's like, okay, why can't I have that? Why can't I always have that? Yeah. Totally. And so that was one of the first things I ever talked about with my therapist was I used to have these moments when I was young and I want that. Where did these, where did they go? Like I haven't had those in so long. Where did these moments go? I want to have that feeling back. I want to know what that's like again. And I should have known that something was up when, you know, those really started to stop.

43:26The Anxious Achiever: And you can't achieve it away. You can't. No, no, no. My last question for you is, um, one day your career will end in the NBA. How are you going to plan? Right. Cause then you're going to think, Oh God, okay. I mean, how am I going to, what's my next mountain to climb? Right. Are you going to let yourself feel that way and put a new mountain in front of yourself? Are you going to try to practice? Not. Okay. No, I mean, I mean, just being that's one thing you have to be is honest with yourself, right? Like, and sometimes it's, it's, it's not the easiest thing to do. Or to, you know, it's like admitting when you're wrong to like, that can be a tough hurdle.

44:07And you don't always go all the way you You go one foot in, one foot out. But yeah, I imagine that I'll put some sort of mountain in front of me and carry the pebbles and just keep trying to summit this never ending mountain that keeps getting higher, higher in elevation. But I think achievement, my relationship with it has changed to where, you know, I'm still in that pursuit of great things and greatness and excellence, but also allowing for there to be a little bit of wiggle room knowing that and it's taken the pressure off me and probably allowed me to perform better but it's definitely you know something that I've thought about and thankfully as I mentioned earlier with these hobbies and things that I truly love you know books and art and wine and photography and my dog or you know just all these travel like all these great things that have you know opened up the world for me and cracked it open like people have these self-limiting beliefs that the world is too scary or too, you know, everything's too far away to travel or it's too expensive.

45:15And I think, you know, when, when you have that limiting, self-limiting belief that you just have to, you know, play your cards and, you know, allow yourself to be this vulnerable, evolved person. If you can, if you can take yourself there.

45:29The Anxious Achiever: Well, Kevin Love, I wish you many moments of joy and thank you so much. Of course. Thanks for having me.

46:07Thank you.