Unpacking Money Trauma with Shannah Game

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1:20Morra Aarons-Mele: If you're ready to launch before Black Friday, just go to Shopify.com slash anxiousachiever and start your free trial. I like figuring stuff out with other people, and that's why I like Notion. Notion is the AI workspace where your team's knowledge, projects, and agents all come together in one place. Teams using Notion move faster, and they cut friction and cost by consolidating tools, and they stay aligned. But Notion is really good for people because you know what? You put your idea down, you put your rough draft down in Notion, your colleague can access it, hash it out, give feedback, and it's all there and organized.

2:03Morra Aarons-Mele: Is it possible for AI to make room for more human connection, not less? Notion says yes, and it will help you do your best work. Learn more about how Notion can support your business at Notion.com slash Achiever. That's all lowercase letters, Notion.com slash Achiever and try Notion today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. Hi, I'm Maura Aarons-Mele, host of The Anxious Achiever. Today, I'm going to bring you one of our most downloaded and one of my most favorite episodes from our archives. It's a classic. The Anxious Achiever has been at it for a long time. We have over 300 episodes, and honestly, they're all still more relevant than ever.

2:51Morra Aarons-Mele: You may hear details in this episode that remind you it's from another time, but I guarantee that the advice you get will be as crisp and meaningful and the stories as resonant as before. If you have a favorite episode of the show, let me know. I'd love to air it again or even re-record it for you fresh. Enjoy this classic Anxious Achiever episode.

3:21Morra Aarons-Mele: Today's guest says that our relationship with money is often fully formed at a young age before we can even be conscious of it. But our relationship with and our hangups around money can have negative impacts on our work, our families, our self-concept, and more as we grow into adulthood. We've talked on the show before about how money is often more about emotions than it is about dollar and cents. Shana Game is a personal finance expert, and she specializes in thinking about money trauma. She looks at the irrational fears that surround the way we all interact with money and what we can do about them.

3:59Morra Aarons-Mele: And she helps us figure out how to play detective around the things that trigger us about money. It's a super helpful and I think really realistic approach that I just love. She's also a podcast host and author of the book Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. Here's our conversation. The first part of your book is called Why is your relationship with money so messed up? Which is a rhetorical question, I assume, but I'm going to ask it to you like it's a real question. Why is our relationship with money usually so messed up? There is so much that goes into how we interact with money that we're just not thinking about, right?

4:39I talk about in the book that by age seven, our money personality, our money habits, our money beliefs are pretty much set in stone, right? It's what we learned or didn't learn as kids around money. And so that just kind of operates on this like unconscious basis. So every time we spend money or we interact with money, that story is playing out, right? Whether we're conscious of it or not. For example, I was just working with a client and he was like, you know, I like, I can't figure out how to make the numbers work. And I really want to hit the school. But I like every time I go to spend money, I just do it.

5:25I just I'm so irrational, right? Like I just have to buy everything, even though I know buying everything keeps me from where I want to be. And so you know, it's really diving into somebody's story and figuring out, you know, for him, he's the eldest of three sons, he feels like he's supposed to be the most financially secure. He can't tell his brothers, you know, I'm in a situation where money's super tight. And so it's all of this emotion and story behind our money that gets us in this place of being messed up. And we're used to just looking for the math answer, right? We're used to saying like, let me find a podcast or a blog or a book that gives me the math answer.

6:10You get that answer And then you're like, wait a minute, nothing's changing. Why is this happening? Because it's not just that, right? We have to pair these two things together. And so in the opening book, I talk about my irrational fear, I guess you would say, of looking at ATM receipts. Like for 10 plus years, I never looked at an ATM receipt. And you would think that's absolutely nuts as a money expert. Like how's she not looking at her own money?

6:38Morra Aarons-Mele: It's kind of your job. It's kind of my job. It's kind of my job. And I'm really good at it with other people, but with myself, I'm not. And so, you know, I use that example just to illustrate how we all have these things around money that are kind of our secrets, right? Like our dirty little secrets that we don't talk about because we're just so afraid that people will think we're terrible, we're not perfect. And it reinforces that lie that we somehow all believe that we're just not good with money and that there'll never be enough. I feel like in our society, money is sort of the perfect storm between shame and insecurity and ego, right?

7:18Morra Aarons-Mele: And identity, you know? And so it is really the perfect vessel for us to put everything in it. everything. And it is, I believe, like the longest relationship we're ever going to have besides ourselves, right? We're always and forever going to be interacting with this thing called money. And so you're right. It is this intersection of shame, of power, of identity, of self-worth, of mental health, of all of these components that we're not used to bringing to the conversation and bring you to the table where we're talking about money, but they all need to be there, right? You talk about anxiety and the role that plays in achieving.

8:05We could look at it through the same lens of money. It's at the table.

8:09Morra Aarons-Mele: I mean, the way that I think of it is like, or maybe it's on your shoulder. It's sort of your invisible companion. And that's the thing that I feel like we're kindred spirits because I never understood. I see people at work playing out patterns every day. And I'm like, this isn't about the task at hand. This isn't about him. This is about you and your history and your childhood and all the stories that are wrapped up in your identity. It just feels so obvious. It feels so obvious. Yeah. And yet we stay, you know, burdened by the story. Right. And I think that's, that's like a narrative that people are afraid of exploring because if we explore the story behind it all, it might lead us to places that might feel super scary and we might have to look at ourselves.

9:04So I often say, your spending is a mirror. So if you hold that mirror up, what do you want that to say about you? And most people don't think they have a choice in that, but you have the ultimate choice to decide what you choose to do or not do with your money. And so my hope is that through a lot of the stories in the book, you can kind of see yourself in there or also maybe not feel so bad about yourself and have a sense of courage to be able to hold up a mirror just even a little bit and say, okay, is there something I want to change? Like, what is my story about and what do I want it to be about?

9:46Okay.

9:47Morra Aarons-Mele: Money story. So I have written, and my listeners might even know, but my money story is encapsulated through one phone call when I was getting into college, basically when I was a senior in high school. And my father and mother had been going through a protracted, nasty separation. And they used money to punish each other. In my family, money is extremely important. And it's used as a tool to punish and withhold or lavish. And I got into my dream college, an Ivy League university, early decision, which is a huge accomplishment. And, you know, I was a recruited athlete. I felt, I felt great. And I called my dad who I didn't live with.

10:40Morra Aarons-Mele: And I said, daddy, daddy, I got in. And he said, well, I'm sorry, you can't go. You have to go to the state university. I'm not paying for it. And, you know, I can't describe to you the feeling at that moment, because also I was confused because they sent me to private school. Like they clearly wanted me to go to a good college and like I achieved what they asked me to. And, you know, then it was like, well, no, I'm not gonna pay for it. Like almost like, you know, I don't feel like it. And I was able to work things out. My coach really came through for me. But, you know, that's my money story.

11:27Morra Aarons-Mele: And it has affected my behavior, you know, for decades now. Yeah, I was going to ask you like how, you know, because this is the important piece of the money story. It's not only the story, but then how do you see it played out, right? Particularly in your adulthood, where you come up against something and you're like, wait a minute, why am I thinking this or behaving this way? Or why is this happening over and over again? And it's that tie back. Can you see literally ties back to that story? 100%. I mean, and the thing, and you talk about this in the book, and I think it's so important for listeners, is this has such far-reaching implications for your romantic relationships, for your work relationships, for your personal.

12:14Morra Aarons-Mele: So for me, I think the positive was I was like, all right you're on your own kid you got to figure this out you know and you know I would my father have come through I don't probably he was you know a lot of bark and bite but it was definitely a sense of like okay you can figure this out and I did and I was proud of that and so I've been very successful in my career you know it's sort of figuring stuff out but along with that comes a tremendous amount of anxiety and expecting to be let down, which with my husband is a huge issue and has been a huge issue in our marriage. And so, you know, these things play out so deeply.

12:55Morra Aarons-Mele: And then, you know, when I'm feeling good and proud, I overindulge myself. And then when it feels tight, I catastrophize. Oh, yeah. You're explaining everybody's story. it's it's just it's human nature you know and it's I think also there's this element that we feel like we're supposed to be perfect with money like we're supposed to make all the decisions the numbers are always supposed to equal out the budget's supposed to be perfect align and when it's not it plays right back into whatever version of story we grew up with and it's usually some sort of like scarcity belief around money. And it doesn't have to be that you grew up in a family where money was tight, right?

13:44I didn't grow up in a family where money was tight. And yet I grew up with this belief of like, are we supposed to enjoy money? I don't know. Because every time we do something that costs money, like my dad has some sort of, you know, quip back about how expensive that thing was. So maybe you're not supposed to enjoy anything. Like maybe it's all supposed to be a struggle. So I think, you know, we get caught in that belief that it's, it's, you know, these negative thoughts around money have to only exist if we grew up in a lack situation. And that's just not true.

14:20Morra Aarons-Mele: Right. Cause money is a feeling, as you say. It's a feeling. It's a feeling. Yeah. So the first question, I think to explore your, your money story is really to ask yourself, you know, very simple question, how do I feel about money? And whatever that answer is, keep digging down, like keep asking yourself why, you know, if it's anxious, why is that? Well, you know, I feel like, you know, the rug's always going to get pulled out. Why is that? You know, keep drilling down and you're going to get to the bottom of the onion skin, usually around something from your childhood. Oh, okay, now I get it.

15:02Yeah.

15:02Morra Aarons-Mele: And I think therapy is a great tool here, right? Therapy is a great tool. The numbers are important, but you got to get to the behavior and the feelings. You got to do that. And I think you want to make sure that you find there are financial therapists. You know, I work with people in a very interesting way where we combine the emotional with the practical component. And not a lot of people kind of know how to navigate that territory. So, you know, you want to find somebody who can really hold space for you and not make you feel more shamed and more judged. Because even the tiniest, you know, slip of a word can kind of put somebody back into that place around money because it's so impactful in our lives.

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17:31Morra Aarons-Mele: We were talking about money and emotions. Money is way more than dollars and cents. It's emotional, right? And I'm trying to teach my kids to have healthier emotions around money than I did. But I'm getting better every year. And part of it is that I use Monarch. Monarch simplifies, identifies, and helps me have a plan for my money. Monarch is like having a financial advisor in your pocket. It has easy to read diagrams that help me visualize exactly where my money goes each month. And it has investment views so I can compare my portfolio, say, to how the S &P is doing. All kinds of great tools that help me, frankly, take some of the emotions out of money and make it more practical and working for me.

18:22Morra Aarons-Mele: Most apps only tell you what you've already spent, but Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases, and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can write your own money story with Monarch. Use the code achiever at monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch Core at half off, just$50. That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. This is an ad for a book, but not just any book. It is a book that will change the way you think about business and maybe how you run your business. It's called Life at the Speed of Play by Mark Pincus. I want to tell you about one of my favorite concepts in the book.

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20:31Morra Aarons-Mele: And then they make a little tiny comments. And we hear that as you did something wrong. You're bad. Especially for women, I find, you know, we're so sensitive around, you know, this idea of like, you're a bad girl, right? Because we know that from being little girls, like be a good girl, you know? And so it's always that, like, particularly I find if it comes from a man doing that, like it immediately puts us all back in that, you know, like little girl phase, like, oh my God, I did something wrong.

21:09Morra Aarons-Mele: I know. No, it's funny. I was just, I was thinking though, that like with my money story, when my husband and I were first married, we met with a financial advisor that a friend had recommended and he only talked to my husband and he said to my husband and we were newly married And he said, you know, I'm not going to take her earnings too seriously because in a couple years, she's just going to have kids and then whatever. Do you know, I've heard that story. I can't even tell you probably at least a hundred times. Even today? Because this was a while ago. Even today. Yeah. That we're just, we're discounted.

21:49Like, yeah. Why, why factor in our, our needs? Why factor in our income? Why factor in our career? it doesn't matter. Yeah. It's terribly disappointing that that is still the vocabulary. I just, the other week, someone just told me that a version of that story. So yes, this is, this is still happening.

22:14Morra Aarons-Mele: People, if your advisor says that to you, run, run, run fast. Yes. You do not have to deal with that. Absolutely. And, and the thing that, that I want people to know is if they're in that situation, whether it's an accountant or an advisor, you're in control. It's your money. It's your business. It's your situation, right? And you actually get to drive that conversation and you get to decide like, no, this doesn't work. I think the minute you feel that sense of shame or belittling or anything like that rise to the surface, like, get out of there. You there are 1000s of other, you know, people out there willing to help you and not make you feel that way.

23:03Morra Aarons-Mele: I want to talk a little bit about money trauma. I want to talk about why money trauma makes us sometimes make bad decisions. I want to then talk about financial self actualization. And then I want to do some exercises. Perfect. Yeah. What is money trauma and how do I know if I have it? It is a, technically speaking, like a psychological, emotional reaction to money. So I like to just talk about it. It's the messy, sticky bits around money. So the way you're going to notice it is feeling your body. So if you are opening your bank account app and you notice your heart start racing or your palms start sweating or maybe your shoulders get tight, that is a clue from your body that there is some sort of trauma there around money.

23:57Now, we're used to thinking about trauma in these big ways, right? Like I grew up in poverty or I lost my job, but it can be these tiny things. Like, let's say, for instance, you forgot to pay a bill. Like, you just forgot, right? And then maybe your credit score dipped. And then you got into that place of like, see, look, I'm terrible with money, right? So every time you interact with money, you feel that sensation in your body. So it could be tiny things. It could be something someone said to you that creates this trauma response. So look for cues in your body. Your body is going to tell you that something's going on.

24:43And that's a moment for you to just sort of stop and think about, okay, what's really going on? What is the emotion that I'm feeling? And then why am I feeling that? And that's going to help you figure out these like sticky little bits, right? And so I want you to just allow yourself to explore that without judgment? Like, where does that come from? Why do I feel this way? Why am I always anxious around money? What is that about? Do I always have to be that way? You know, am I telling myself or believing lies about money that aren't actually true? Do these actually belong to me, right? Maybe a friend is going through a stressful time around money.

25:24You're actually mirroring or feeling their emotions, right? So really thinking through like, what is this, right? And this is where I, when we're talking about trauma, money trauma, I want you to bring a sense of curiosity. Like pretend like you're a, you know, an investigator, right? And you're trying to get the, to the bottom, you're trying to put the clues together. So that's really where, you know, it could be, it could be when you look at your bank statement. It could be for me, it was when I was getting ATM receipts. It could be when you're having a conversation with your partner. It could be even in your friend group.

25:59Like maybe something about that brings up some sort of trauma for you. So it could be around anything that money touches, right? And so when you notice that, just stop and say, okay, what is going on?

26:15Morra Aarons-Mele: Avoidance too. Avoidance is a big one. Avoidance is the same as looking and getting nervous, right? There's an emotion there. There is something in the middle there that is causing you from not looking. You know, I think that playing detective around your reactions is one of the biggest skills you can have. And, you know, I think that for a lot of us, there are triggers that are going to be there and they're never going to go away. So for me, emails from my accountants, IRS letters in the mailbox. Oh, yes. You know, I won't go into why, but a big reason why I wanted to sell the business that I owned was that tax season was so stressful for me emotionally and drew on so many past traumas that it was like it was almost untenable.

27:13Morra Aarons-Mele: It would distract me. And so I think that I wanted to hear your thoughts on, you know, you got to pay your taxes. Like your accountants are going to email you. You got to pay your taxes. The triggers are going to keep coming. The triggers are going to keep coming. It's your reaction to the triggers, but also the environment that you put yourself in. So if you're feeling already stressed or anxious, maybe you just had an argument with your partner, your kids are yelling at you or having a tantrum, that's not the time to open the email. Right? It's before bed. Or it's before bed. Right? So this is where it's like, know thyself.

27:52put yourself in an environment that you're giving yourself the best chance of success around this right and some of that is talking yourself ahead of time like look I know I feel stressed every time I open one of these emails but I can do it I've been through these emails before and I'm still here so whatever's in this email I'm going to be okay right take yourself to a coffee shop Like, go do something enjoyable so that you give your body the best chance of having an emotional reaction that will not be complete meltdown or, you know, a panic response. it's still going to come. Like we can't untrigger our life, but what we can do is build in an environment where we're giving ourselves the best chance of being able to process through it without it, you know, shutting down the system, if you will.

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30:01Morra Aarons-Mele: Start selling with no seller fees, keep what you earn, and have some fun giving your old clothes a new wonderful home and maybe bringing in some new clothes with that extra money. You know, I love mushrooms. I am fascinated by them. One of my favorite things to do is in New Hampshire to go on mushroom exploring walks with a renowned naturalist, Riley McHugh. Riley has taught me to put on my seeing eyes. And when I do, I see purple mushrooms and red mushrooms, big mushrooms, gross mushrooms, cute mushrooms. And I was thinking about the holidays upcoming and, you know, how we use mushrooms as a decorative theme.

30:43Morra Aarons-Mele: Think about it. You probably have a mushroom ornament or a little mushroom figure that you may put out sometime in the fall or holidays. Mushrooms. If I had an online store, I would sell all manner of decorative mushrooms. I know it sounds silly. And I would do it on Shopify. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable holiday selling season at every stage. There's a reason why so many businesses thrive on Shopify. You can easily sell everywhere people shop online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. If you launch your store before Black Friday, a time of year when more people are already shopping and ready to buy, you can take advantage of the extra online traffic.

31:29Morra Aarons-Mele: If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to shopify.com slash anxiousachiever and start your free trial. Shopify.com slash anxiousachiever to hear your first. You know, the other day I was talking with my friend who is both certified financial planner and a financial therapist. We were talking about money and emotions. Money is way more than dollars and cents. It's emotional, right? And I'm trying to teach my kids to have healthier emotions around money than I did. But I'm getting better every year. And part of it is that I use Monarch. Monarch simplifies, identifies, and helps me have a plan for my money.

32:18Morra Aarons-Mele: Monarch is like having a financial advisor in your pocket. It has easy-to-read diagrams that help me visualize exactly where my money goes each month. And it has investment views so I can compare my portfolio, say, to how the S &P is doing. all kinds of great tools that help me frankly take some of the emotions out of money and make it more practical and working for me. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent, but Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases, and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can write your own money story with Monarch. Use the code achiever at monarch.com and get your first year of Monarch Core at half off just$50.

33:01Morra Aarons-Mele: That's$50 off your first year at monarch.com with code achiever. Coming to your sort of cognitive triangle here, you then suggest, and I talk about this with my listeners all the time. So the trigger comes, I feel the emotion, I feel the feeling. What happens next? So my habit might be, you did it again you messed up another tax season you suck why does this always happen to me it's so-and-so's fault I'm just gonna go and buy a new pair of jeans anyway or I'm gonna you know right thousand percent absolutely so we've got to like reverse engineer this right so I kind of add on to the behavioral triangle where we know that it originates with our thoughts.

33:59So if our thought is, yep, see there, I'm terrible with money, right? There I go again. That's going to create that whole cascade of like, fine, I'm just going to go buy another pair of jeans because there's an emotional, you know, dopamine hit that's going to be helpful.

34:14Morra Aarons-Mele: And a shortcut, right? It's what I've been doing. So I'm just going to do it again. Yeah, it's easy. It's comfortable. Our brains are lazy. It's what we do, even if we know it's going to derail what we're actually trying to do. So we've got to come back to the thought, right? Is there even a tiny little step of a healthier thought than I'm terrible, horrible with money, right? Could it be something like, okay, yesterday I paid my rent or my mortgage or I paid a bill. So see, I actually can be trusted with this or Or C, I can make good decisions, right? You got to find little threads of belief, right?

34:56Little thread that helps you change that thought because that thought then cascades into a feeling. The feeling then immediately goes to an action, right? And the action is we're going to maybe go for a walk instead of go buy another$100 pair of jeans. Or we're going to call a friend. Or we're going to put on our favorite movie. Or I know we're going to do something. right? Something. And then that action starts to change the whole patterns and behaviors. So by, you know, reverse engineering that and starting with the thought, we can end up with a different behavior pattern. Maybe then, you know, every time we get that email or something comes in a mail, our immediate thought isn't like, oh, I've got to go self-soothe this by buying something.

35:43Maybe it's like, oh, yep. Remember, remember when I went through for that walk? Like I felt so energized after it or called my friend or whatever it is. So I often suggest to get a mason jar. And I want you to, in a calm moment, write out as many things as you can think about that you would enjoy doing instead. Like getting your favorite cup of coffee, which is a lower spend item, which is totally allowed. Going for a walk. I don't know. Playing with my dog. Whatever it is. Print those all off. Fold them up. put them in the mason jar. When you're in that moment of like, I'm feeling it, pull one of those things out because your brain needs help in those moments.

36:29You know this from anxiety, right? Your brain needs help in those moments to make a different choice. So give it a different choice and then go do that thing. Right? And it's not foolproof. That doesn't mean, you know, 100 % of the time you're not going to go buy those pair of jeans, but you're giving like a moment of pause and enough for you to think through like, okay, is this what I like, do I really need this? Is this what I really want to do? And so every time you make those choices and you're thinking through it, you're starting to reset that behavior and ultimately that whole thought pattern.

37:02Morra Aarons-Mele: I'm not just going to react. I'm going to choose how to respond. I mean, that's the ideal. Very easy to say. Hard to do. Hard, like so hard. Impossible. I think the thing that I have also done and that I'm very big on is infrastructure. So, you know, knowing that tax season is a huge trigger for me and as a small business owner, tax season basically starts in September because I have to start looking at my estimates and sending all that to the accountant so they can start planning even though you don't pay your taxes till April. I decided that I needed to really build scaffolding. And so what did that look like?

37:42Morra Aarons-Mele: Now, again, I own a business and so this is what it looks like for me, it might be different for you. If you have a job, W-2, it's easier. But I have a financial manager who works with me and my husband in our businesses. I have a wonderful accounting team and I have my husband. And so we all decided that we needed to build in some check-ins throughout the year and that we needed to build some processes so that we were minimizing shocks and scary emails. And then also thinking about, you know, one of the things that I was doing that was very unhelpful for my husband was I would get an email and I'd be all fired up and what would I do?

38:28Morra Aarons-Mele: I'd call him and I'd cry or yell at him or blame him or go into a tizzy in the middle of his workday. And then it's like, that's not fair. So I think that if you're the kind of person, you know, who knows that there are triggers coming up for you, what can you do to scaffold? Who can you ask for help? What can you do to scaffold yourself so you feel more supported and you minimize the uncertainty and the surprises? Because that's what causes the anxiety. I love that question. And I think, you know, just what you did, it's looking at, okay, what is the thing that derails me, right? It's those emails.

39:07Okay. And what is it about those emails? Well, it's, you know, okay, we didn't necessarily plan properly or, you know, it's last minute or whatever it is. Right. So it's, it's like backing up from that moment of, you know, terror and seeing, okay, what do I need to do to set myself up? So it won't be so terrorizing. Um, if you, if you are W2 and you work for a company, um, you know, maybe it's something like setting a weekly or monthly like money date with yourself, right? Where you're looking back at what you spent and you're looking forward about what's coming up and you're asking yourself just a couple of simple questions like, am I okay with where my money's going?

39:53Do I want to make any shifts? Are there any goals I need to plan for coming up? And then can I foresee anything in the near future that I need to kind of pre-think or set up some of that scaffolding around. So you're putting yourself back in charge of this rather than letting money kind of tug you around. So same rules, put yourself in an environment that you enjoy, you know, set your timer for 15, 20 minutes, like give yourself an encapsulation of time. Once that's up, then walk away, you know, don't think about this anymore, right? So set up these boundaries for yourself where you commit to it.

40:35Give yourself a little reward for that commitment because that's going to help your brain go, oh, this is a good thing. We should continue doing this. And then walk away and tell yourself when that timer's up, I'm done. Like I'm done worrying about it. I'm done thinking about it until the next time I get in my money date. then I'll come back in and think about it again.

40:57Morra Aarons-Mele: You talk about Keisha Blair and financial self-actualization. I want you to explain this comment. I think my listeners know what self-actualization means, but what is financial self-actualization and how can we start to achieve it? It's really thinking about, I think, the larger picture around money, right? So Keisha talks about, you know, financial trauma, money trauma being like one of the strongest kind of trauma bonds that we have in our lives, right? And I think if you just think about, you know, last 30 minutes that we've been chatting, you can definitely see how that's the case. And so really thinking about, like, what do I value in my life?

41:57You know, what do I actually want this thing to be about? Do I actually really like the career I'm in? Like, oh, I actually have a choice in that. What do I want the next, you know, 10, 15 years of my life to look like? And so really start, I think bringing yourself more into your money, right, is such an important piece. And so I have a client right now and he's like, you know what, I was so fired up that I decided to start a hundred day spending challenge. And not from a place of restraint, but from a place of recognizing myself in my spending. And so he was only three days in and I was like, okay, what have you discovered so far?

42:44And he's like, oh my gosh, like I've already discovered so many things, like some patterns where I would just go out and spend just, just because, you know, and like he started to think differently about, he runs a business. He started thinking differently about inventory and like, do I really need to carry mediums because nobody actually buys the mediums. And, And so then he started thinking broader about, well, what do I want my money to actually do for me? You know, what are the like passions and the causes that I care about? How can I help other people with the money I have? And so he started to think out broader by just looking at, and he literally is itemizing every, I'm talking about gas.

43:28I'm talking every single purchase. And he's asking himself, how does this help me be the version of me I want to be? Like, how does this help me be more authentically me? And so he's just thinking about every purchase from that place for 100 days. And then I've given him journaling prompts along the way to think about this and think about how this is helping him or hurting him from being the person he wants to be.

44:02Morra Aarons-Mele: I am totally stealing this. Steal it. Listeners, if you want to do it with me, because what an incredible way. To your point, our attitudes about money are formed when we're what, seven, you said? By seven, yep. Good Lord. So a lot of us are not self-actualized at all in that we are living out other people's definition of good, other people's values, right? Being unself-actualized means that you are yoked to other people's beliefs, not yours. And what an incredible way to sort of pull apart than by looking at how you act out money. It is probably one of the most powerful exercises you can do. And if you can put yourself in a place of the thought that this is not about restraint, this is not about what I can't do.

45:03This is more of a story of what I want to do. And how do I make shifts to make that happen?

45:15Morra Aarons-Mele: That's it for this week's show. If you like the show, follow us and tell your friends. And please leave us a review. It really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our content. I'm your host, Maura Aarons-Mele. Lots more to come in the next episode.