In short
Museums face a “silent emergency” driven by shrinking public funding, declining trust, politicization, and post-pandemic attendance shortfalls in the West; private museum instability tied to real estate in China; and funding cuts plus speech/Israel-Gaza tensions in Germany. The episode argues museums must “keep the lights on” via reinvention—especially networked collaboration (shared acquisitions, shared patrons) and diversified revenue—because single-source models (big donors, fossil-fuel sponsorship, property-linked private funding) can vanish quickly.
Guests
Margaret Kerrigan, news editor and host of Art Market Minute (Artnet News). She reports on museum finance, policy, and ethics.
Key claims
Overheads rise while footfall lags pre-pandemic levels; U.S. federal museum funding is declining and can be redirected or threatened; corporate sponsorship is ethically contested; next-gen patrons (45 and under) want impact, not just gala-style events.
Notable examples
NEA/NEH/IMLS cuts totaling $428M; MoMA attendance down (3.2M to 2.8M); UK visitor numbers down ~10%; Tate/British Museum BP sponsorship protests; Berlin Senate cut €130M; China private museums closing due to real estate collapse; Toledo Museum of Art auction-house guarantees; Guggenheim+MCA co-acquisitions; Tate+National Gallery acquisition collaboration; British Museum “Met-style” gala controversy.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOChallenges Facing Museums
0:21 to 1:10
Discussing the unprecedented challenges museums are facing globally.
“I'm Kate Brown and this is The Art Angle, a podcast from Artnet News.”
Overview of a Four-Part Series
1:10 to 1:50
Introduction to a series examining various aspects of the museum crisis.
“I recently worked with Margaret Kerrigan, our news editor and host of the Art Market Minute, to edit a four-part series examining this issue from different angles.”
Defining the Scope and Aims
1:50 to 3:00
Margaret explains the scope and aims of the museum crisis series.
“We've been talking about this idea for like a couple of years now, really.”
The Impact of the Pandemic
3:00 to 4:20
Exploring how the pandemic has fundamentally altered museum engagement.
“their institutions and budgets are being cut and governments are getting a lot more conservative, as you said.”
Funding Cuts and Financial Anxiety
4:20 to 6:10
Analyzing the financial cuts and the anxiety within museum leadership.
“The ARP newspaper published in their annual visitor report, Figures About Tate, that showed its footfall had decreased by over a quarter than before the pandemic.”
The Role of Donors and Government Influence
6:10 to 8:00
Examining how government actions and donor decisions are reshaping museums.
“It's that it's there, but moving around.”
Cultural Institutions in the US
8:00 to 10:40
Discussing the challenges faced by U.S. cultural institutions amid political changes.
“There seems to be this sense of like they're frozen in the headlights right now.”
International Perspectives on Museum Funding
10:40 to 13:00
Exploring how international institutions, especially in Germany, are impacted by funding cuts.
“Charlotte Burns and Alan Schwartzman's What If?”
Funding Crisis in Berlin Museums
14:00 to 15:26
Explore the severe funding cuts facing cultural institutions in Berlin and their implications.
“I believe that there are over 400 cultural institutions here alone.”
China's Private Museum Boom and Bust
15:26 to 16:39
Discuss the rise and fall of private museums in China and its lessons for Western institutions.
“She focused on a few case studies from some private museums there.”
Show all 21 chapters
Risks of Reliance on Big Donors
16:39 to 18:24
Understand the dangers of depending heavily on wealthy patrons for museum funding.
“If not entirely, then in part, you know, they're reducing programming or, you know, just closing to the public or in some cases they would shutter for long times and then reopen for special projects.”
Controversies in UK Museum Sponsorship
18:24 to 19:48
Examine the ethical challenges surrounding corporate sponsorship of museums in the UK.
“And I think, you know, what you were just saying about Glenn Lowry's point about tax incentives.”
Public Pressure and Museum Survival
19:48 to 21:02
Analyze how public opinion is shaping funding strategies and survival tactics of museums.
“And they kind of explicitly warned against relying on sponsors tied to fossil fuels or human rights abuses.”
Changing Expectations of Museum Funding
21:02 to 22:39
Discuss how shifting public expectations are affecting museum funding dynamics.
“There was a quote from someone in the piece that said, quote, all money can be problematic.”
Innovative Funding Strategies for Museums
22:39 to 26:08
Discover creative solutions and strategies that museums are employing to secure funding.
“You spoke to many people for your piece, talking to them about different ways that they've found to future proof their bottom lines, basically.”
The Need for Museums to Adapt
26:08 to 28:01
Explore the urgency for museums to modernize and adapt their funding models to survive.
“becoming more tolerant of a more flexible idea of what an institution can do.”
The British Museum's Upcoming Gala
28:01 to 29:08
Discussion on the controversial gala event planned by the British Museum.
“But I think that what a lot of museums are considering now is if they do need to be more nimble, how can they do that and what that looks like on a governance level.”
Cultural Context of Philanthropy
29:09 to 30:48
Exploration of the differences in philanthropic models between the UK and US.
“They claimed that it just shows that the museum remains out of touch.”
Generational Shifts in Museum Funding
30:49 to 32:58
Analysis of how younger patrons' preferences are changing museum funding.
“But I also think that the nature of philanthropy is changing alongside of all of this.”
Networked Institutions and Future Challenges
32:59 to 34:44
Discussion on the fragility of museums and the need for new collaborative models.
“institution is time, talent, and treasure.”
Reflections on Museum Sustainability
34:45 to 35:54
Closing thoughts on the sustainability and future evolution of museums.
“And that shift, I think, will take a lot of time to see fully borne out, but I think it's very much germinated right now.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03What is coming to the fore very clearly so far is I think this idea of more networked institutions whether that's collaborating together on acquisitions or sharing their patrons or in terms of also just like how they're building themselves.
0:21I'm Kate Brown and this is The Art Angle, a podcast from Artnet News.
0:30Museums across the globe are facing unprecedented challenges. In the West, public funding is shrinking, politics are creeping into the galleries, and institutions are having to ask hard questions about how to stay relevant to their donors and their publics. In an era of increased scrutiny and diminishing returns, even some of the most established museums are questioning what long-term sustainability looks like. Meanwhile, in China, the private museum boom that once symbolized cultural ambition and real estate wealth is cracking. and some of the lavish new museums that have opened in recent years are having to close or scale back.
1:06In short, museums are in a crisis. I recently worked with Margaret Kerrigan, our news editor and host of the Art Market Minute, to edit a four-part series examining this issue from different angles. I'm pleased to have Margaret on the show to talk about what this all means, the financial, political, and ethical pressures that are reshaping museums, and whether this is a breaking point or the start of a new chapter of reinvention. Hi, Margaret. Thanks for joining me on The Art Angle. It's so great to have you on. I'm excited to be here. Thank you. Yeah, well, we've been working closely together across the last weeks, getting out this package, which we've called Museums in Crisis.
1:43What, in your words, would be like the scope and the aim of the series? What do you think was like the big question that you were trying to answer with it? We've been talking about this idea for like a couple of years now, really. So it's not necessarily new, but it kept shifting forms because so much is happening in the world. And I think this year is a real inflection point with everything that's happening under the Trump administration in the U.S. and in the U.K. There's a lot of like funding pushback and we can get into that later. So there's this like real moment. Things were crystallizing after a lot of upset in the past few years.
2:19I think the big question we wanted to get at with this was like, how are museums planning to keep the lights on? Because it just seems like overheads are rising and public trust is declining. And those two things do not go well together for museums. And there's really no clear roadmap for a lot of them. And there's just pressure coming from all sides. So I think the question was like, we're aware of a lot of the issues, but like, what are some of the solutions here? Definitely. Yeah. It was a story that was sort of shifting under our feet, wasn't it? I mean, And I feel like since the museums reopened in the pandemic, nothing was ever the same.
2:53And in a way, there's a long tail to this whole story. Like this even goes back to the first Trump administration. There's been, as you mentioned, a real shift in the public's ideas of what they want from their institutions and budgets are being cut and governments are getting a lot more conservative, as you said. The pieces that we did roved across many different countries, but maybe we could kind of lay the land a bit more in a few of them in particular. Yeah, I mean, we kind of centered on the West. You know, that's where we're operating from. And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of the same kind of trends, which is to that point, it's like constriction of public funding, loss of public trusts, rise of corporate sponsorship.
3:32Also, on top of that, to your point about the pandemic, I think that was a through line that came through a lot, is that that fundamentally altered the way I think people are engaging with museums. It was in progress before that, but it really was just like a flashpoint there. And I think that really bore out in some of the data that we picked up for these stories on the attendance side, which there was a recent report this year by SMU Data Arts that showed that pretty much across the board, a lot of big Western art institutions were seeing still declining footfall or just hadn't returned to pre-pandemic levels.
4:07MoMA, I think, is now down to 2.8 million. It was 3.2 million before the pandemic. In the UK, the Arts Council England also published some figures this year that said visitor numbers had dropped by about 10 percent across the country. And that was really marked, too. The ARP newspaper published in their annual visitor report, Figures About Tate, that showed its footfall had decreased by over a quarter than before the pandemic. That's huge. Meanwhile, like other big museums, the Louvre is down one percent. But, you know, there's been a lot of stories coming out in the last year about staff striking because of over-tourism and they just can't keep up with the demand there.
4:43But even that demand is, it's still not back to pre-pandemic levels. Yeah, it really feels like the model of these museums is just cracking at like every corner of its foundation. And I think that what's nice about this package that we did is that it kind of gets at all these different aspects. So it'll be good to crack into the different stories. But the numbers that you just brought up addressing declining footfall are really impacting the bottom lines. And as we'll touch on a bit today, that is impacted by these cuts to the funding. I was just reading Brian Boucher's piece and, you know,$428 million was cut in this year alone in the NEA and the NEH and the IMLS.
5:22And this is just quite shocking. So the numbers that you stated are compacted by declining budgets. So, you know, to crack into that a little bit more, because Brian Boucher wrote a great feature about the breaking point of museums, essentially. This cuts to budget combined with a politicization in the government right now that is going after these museums. I'm curious, what stood out to you in that story as you were working on him with it? I think the key word here is anxiety. I think what Brian did well in that piece is he very clearly points to the fact that this is not necessarily a new trend in the United States.
5:57that federal funding for museums has been declining since the 90s, really. So this isn't necessarily specific to the Trump administration, although the administration is taking very drastic steps to take control of not only funding, but also the programming of museums at the moment. But across the globe, it seems most institutions are facing greater scrutiny over sensitive issues, and a lot of these museum leaders are really having to second-guess every decision as they're seeing a lot of their funding migrating to other causes are just drying up entirely. In the conversations that we were having around these stories and the lead up to them with Brian and also with some of our sources, you know, I think that that is a real point that bears mentioning a little bit more is that it's not just that money is not there.
6:46It's that it's there, but moving around. It's going into different things. It's being siphoned off into potentially other causes, but also into other pockets. And I remember really specifically speaking to a deputy director of an arts institution here in the UK. You know, it's like a networked issue because they told me that one of their biggest U.S. patrons wasn't going to give this year because essentially they had redirected all of their funds into supporting universities, which were also coming under Trump's ire, you know, as he was pursuing Harvard and whatnot. So I think there's a real concern about how do museums stay relevant when everything is in crisis?
7:26Exactly. Yeah, this sort of term that we hear a lot right now, the poly crisis. And it's a good point. Donors are not necessarily disappearing, but there's the climate crisis, which is also being attacked in the Trump administration. So, yeah, I think that something that stood out to me, though, if we stay on the cultural institutions in the U.S., when I was editing his piece, was this fear among directors. What's going on with that? It was a big story, of course, when Kim Saget, the director of the National Portrait Gallery, resigned after Trump announced that he was firing her, which it's not exactly clear if he's even able to do that.
8:03There seems to be this sense of like they're frozen in the headlights right now. It's such a good point. And I mean, I think rightfully so. And to point back to this issue of universities, like it's not something we've covered directly since it's not in our orbit directly. But at the same time, it's a good case study for what Trump may want to do. And he has made no bones about pursuing at least the Smithsonian, if not other museums, Smithsonian because it is directly federally funded. In the same way that he did pursue universities to kind of bring them in line with his ideological doctrine about what he thinks they should be doing.
8:45You know, earlier this year, I mean, the big story, and we've covered it at length, is that, you know, he really has cracked down on the Smithsonian, claiming in March with an executive order that they had come under this influence of a divisive, race-centered ideology. And since then, his administration has repeatedly criticized the institution's programming. Just this summer, you know, they circulated like a bullet-pointed list of all the artworks they appear to oppose that are in the Smithsonian. Right now, U.S. government has shut down because the Republicans and Democrats couldn't come to an agreement on a spending bill.
9:14And that's happened before. It's not new to U.S. politics. But I think that the tenor of it is very different this time because Trump has essentially said that he will use this as an opportunity to fire people. And he's been kind of targeting the museums in that way since he got into office. There was an article in The New York Times that revealed that just since the shutdown went into effect, the Trump administration has actually ousted an outside advisory group that was advising the National Endowment for the Humanities, which I think really shows that this could be an opportunity for Trump to pursue some of the firings or some of the reductions that he's been wanting to see.
9:53We're seeing plenty of pushback on that. I mean, we've seen some successful lawsuits recently that were filed as a direct result to the NEA and NEH funding cuts that essentially say this has been a violation of First Amendment rights and that they can get that money back. But again, those were filed in March. So that's months that these museums were going without knowing if they were going to get this funding back and having to retool and pause things. So I think that that kind of iffiness has kept everyone from being able to really take take a step forward and find a platform to speak on because it's all shifting so quickly.
10:27And there's no real understanding of how much power someone like Trump has right now. And all we can do is just kind of like use the courts, use what we can to push back on it. One thing I will say is I was just listening to another podcast this morning, Charlotte Burns and Alan Schwartzman's What If? And they had Glenn Lowry, the former director of MoMA on there. And he just left his post a couple of weeks ago and is on to new things. But he raised the issue of, you know, further pressures that could be coming from the Trump administration, including eradicating their not-for-profit status, which would be really damaging to museums in the U.S.
11:06Because so many, if they're not directly funded by federal funds, they are getting tax exemptions because of this designation. So I think that has also compounded the issue for a lot of museum directors as they try and figure out what exactly this administration is capable of and just not jeopardizing their long-term future by, I guess, essentially increasing his ire and him stripping away those kinds of federal protections that do exist for museums that are also outside of the federal network. Wow. That's a really interesting insight from Glenn Lowry. We often think about museums in Europe as the ones that are government funded, but there's huge subsidies given to U.S.
11:46institutions. And, you know, that compounded by something that you said earlier about the relevance of these museums, you know, arguably diversity and inclusion and projects that have related to, you know, post-colonialism or climate concerns or indigenous issues, just to name a few things. If these are suddenly no longer being favored in the programming because of the concern of losing funding, just to like, you know, bring this all together, those patrons have more who might be interested in funding those projects are going to go elsewhere. So this is just to bring this all together. You can really see how deeply concerning this moment in time is.
12:21Yeah, exactly. And to your point about thinking about Europe is like the epitome of like public funding structures for museums. Like I also know that that's also kind of shifting while they still might get more public funding than ones in the U.S. I think that we've seen this in Germany, especially Kate. And maybe you can say a little bit more about that because you're in it. But, you know, we've seen some funding cuts over the last year there. And then obviously there's been a lot of concern about what you can and can't say after the October 7th attack in 2003. And there was museums in Germany really seemed in the crosshairs for a while of protests against Israel's war on Gaza.
12:57So, I mean, how is that bearing out in what you're seeing in museums around you? From what I've observed from the outside, you know, looking into these institutions, obviously not working within them, but from just reporting around them, it seems that there's a similar sense of paralysis and a lack of certainty around what is okay and what is not okay to say, especially around the Israel-Gaza conflict. This also came to a head, you know, after October 7th, 2023, when there were some notable cancellations of museum shows from artists that had made statements about the conflict. So that's been a kind of simmering issue and there's, you know, many different views on it.
13:36And within this is the question of like a museum's core mission to be a space of open dialogue, but also to be a space where people can be fundamentally protected from hate speech. And so what these things mean has just been a very live wire issue in the German media landscape. That runs in parallel with austerity measures that have come into place, and in particular in Berlin. And as the capital of Germany, Berlin, of course, has a huge museum landscape. I believe that there are over 400 cultural institutions here alone. And so at the regional level in December 2024, the Berlin Senate cut 130 million euros in funding to cultural institutions.
14:15And this includes opera houses, theaters, as well as art museums. And it's just a huge amount of money for these institutions to be losing. And there was a protest against this. And so I think, you know, just to bring up this poly crisis again, the governments have become more conservative and they don't see the relevancy here as well of all this money that they're doling out to museums. And then on the same time, there is a parallel conversation going on about what the museum's function is in the political dialogue right now in Germany. So it's very tense here, to say the least. And at the same time, as you noted, the German museum landscape doesn't function in quite the same way as the US.
14:56It's primarily government-funded, and there are some groups and private funders, but it's a much smaller part of the pie than the public funding that is literally what keeps the lights on at these institutions. Yeah.
15:26We've sort of already touched on some similarities and differences that have been taking place across the board of the West, But Cathy Fan wrote a great piece looking at China's private museum boom in recent years and its imminent or recent collapse. She focused on a few case studies from some private museums there. And I think there are some warning signs or cautionary tales that we could pull into the story that is happening in the West right now, would you say? Huge caveat. I do think it operates very differently in China, so I don't want to draw too many close comparisons here. But what I do think is so interesting about Cathy's piece is that she looks at three museums that were kind of developed as emblems of prestige that anchored larger luxury property developments or were the kind of outgrowth of property developers' riches in the last two decades of the big property boom in China.
16:26So they were very much tied to an individual's fortune, right, rather than having kind of this mixed economy model that we see in the West more of several different types of funding sources. And over the last couple of years, again, since the pandemic, there's been a real real estate crisis in China that has caused these museums that had only one source of funding to fold. If not entirely, then in part, you know, they're reducing programming or, you know, just closing to the public or in some cases they would shutter for long times and then reopen for special projects. So it's reduced the ability for the public to just be a part of the museum sphere.
17:10And I think that was always a risk of the private museums. It was certainly raised in the 2010s when there was this big private museum boom of like, what happens if the owner of these museums just decides one day, like, I'm not into this. And that essentially happened in the last couple of years. These real estate developers, their fortunes were in flux as these real estate issues cropped up and the economy suffered. And they were just kind of like, well, we just simply can't afford to do this. It's not interesting to me anymore. It's not what I can afford. And she even said in this piece that some museums in China were actually effectively run as private businesses, so they needed to make profit.
17:50They weren't the specific museums that she highlighted, but that these do exist, these types of museums do exist in China, and they are obviously just not returning your profit. So I think if there is a lesson for other museums elsewhere in the world and this issue that China is facing, then I think it's that you have to be really wary about relying too heavily on big donors, you know, because what they do with their money is essentially their business and they're going to do what they want with it. Exactly. And again, you know, just to drive home what we were saying earlier, and their money can go elsewhere very quickly.
18:24They can just decide one year after another once their, you know, contracts that they've signed on to for endowments have changed or whatever. And I think, you know, what you were just saying about Glenn Lowry's point about tax incentives. If that changes, suddenly you do have a more single model of financing. So I think the lesson there is really like the essentialism of diversification and the funding model, which we'll talk about in a little bit because you wrote a great piece that touches on this as well. But you mentioned big donors. Roving back to the UK, Vivian Chow looked at sponsorships in UK museums, which there have been many controversies in recent years.
19:00There have been soup being thrown at paintings. There's been all kinds of protests against BP. There's been protests over Sackler. So what's been going on with that from your perspective? So I'm an American based in London, so I've been following this closely as well with Vivian. And it really reached a boiling point over the summer. You know, I think there's been a lot of protests in the past few years, even before the pandemic, against corporate sponsors that the public viewed as unethical for museums to be partnering with. And we've seen that in the UK, especially with the British Museum because of their deals with BP, which is the oil giant.
19:37And essentially this year, they renewed their contract with BP for funding. And there was a big call from cultural leaders over the summer. They published an open letter. I think they were signatories from the V &A, the British Museum, National Gallery, like the big institutions in the UK to essentially say like there's too much, quote unquote, relentless negativity around private funding from major firms and that these kinds of protests and boycotts that we've seen a lot and the public pressure on these museums to navigate away from these funding sources is essentially jeopardizing their survival.
20:12It's an argument to be made for sure, but the Museums Association then kind of came back a few months later, I think just in September, and published some advice for their members, which most of these big museums are part of the Museums Association. And they kind of explicitly warned against relying on sponsors tied to fossil fuels or human rights abuses. So there's a real push-pull in the UK right now about what kind of corporate sponsorship is the right kind of corporate sponsorship. And I think it's exacerbated by the fact that public funding for UK museums is drastically low right now. And we're seeing it in lots of different ways in the cultural sector.
20:50You know, theaters are closing and things like that. Smaller regional museums are warning that they have six months left or something like that before they have to turn their lights out. So there's a real urgency to it. At the same time, it raises questions about, you know, what money is good money to take? Exactly. Yeah. There was a quote from someone in the piece that said, quote, all money can be problematic. And I think it does bring some questions about what does the public want or expect? Like these institutions cost money to run. And in the case of the UK in particular, it's free to go to their permanent collections.
21:25Right. So there's no ticket charge at the door. Of course, you pay to go see the semi-permanent exhibitions. Something that Vivian touched on in her piece is that maybe a seemingly neutral party would be the fashion and luxury brands. But that's also kind of a vexed issue, right? You know, Tim Schneider's Gray Market newsletter recently came out and was saying that, you know, 40 % of the market value of LVMH, Caring and Prada has been lost in the past year. They're going to start having to cut their events budgets just like anyone else right now. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that goes back to the point where it's just like if you're relying on one specific individual or industry specifically to keep your bankroll going, that I just don't think that it's feasible at this point because there's just so much volatility in the world economy in general.
22:13but also just, again, changing tastes and changing expectations from the public. I think in Vivian's piece, there was someone who said today's safe option could be tomorrow's hot potato. Like, you just don't know which way the winds are blowing. And it gets increasingly difficult to navigate. It makes these museums kind of reticent or shy to speak out on things because they don't know where to go for, again, the quote unquote right answer or right money right now. You know, that brings us to possible solutions. You spoke to many people for your piece, talking to them about different ways that they've found to future proof their bottom lines, basically.
22:50What did you find most compelling when you were doing your reporting on that? I think that the big takeaway from that is what we've kind of already said, which is like one approach is not enough. You really got to diversify here. You have to find many ways. But that is an exhausting endeavor, right? Like you have to have big teams to do that. Small museums might not necessarily be able to compete on that front. So there's a little bit of risk there. This is something that like the bigger museums are already undertaking and have been undertaking. And I think smaller museums are finding more and more ways to do it, but they don't have the same reach in which to do it.
23:24So that's interesting. I think one smaller museum that I think is doing interesting things that we mentioned is the Toledo Art Museum in Toledo, Ohio. So they've kind of been dabbling in a couple of different ways to just diversify their revenue. And one interesting way is by providing auction house guarantees, which, you know, this line between the market and museums is a hazy one. There's this kind of expectation that it's quite steadfast, but it's been murky at best for a long time. So I think that's an interesting model in which the museum is essentially saying to auction houses when a work comes up for sale at an auction house, they say, oh, we would like to acquire that work.
24:05So they decide on a work, they run it through their curatorial committee and their board the way they would with any acquisition. And they essentially put down a guarantee for that work saying, I will pay X amount for this work that they negotiate with the auction house. And then if it sells for more than that to someone else, they kind of get like a kickback for the added price on top of that. I'm trying to explain this as simply as possible without getting to all the muddy waters of what auction house guarantees are. But essentially, they're saying we want this piece by offering a guarantee.
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24:37The auction house is offering incentive to put that bid in early. And then if someone else outbids them, they still get a little something something for having put their neck out there. And so, you know, the director of the Toledo Museum of Art, Adam Levine, he said that they've made about six figures off of auction house guarantees in the last two years, which isn't enough to necessarily keep the museum afloat. certainly not, but it's something. It's something that they are getting for doing what they would have done anyways, which I think is really interesting. On top of that, I've heard a lot about co-acquisitions or kind of sharing the costs of storage and acquisitions management and all that comes along with that.
25:17And the Guggenheim has recently acquired some works alongside the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago. And then just this summer, or really just a few weeks ago in September, Tate and National Gallery in the UK, two of the biggest institutions here, decided that they were also going to collaborate on acquisitions, which is a real milestone for them because the National Gallery hasn't acquired works older than 1900 since its inception, really, while Tate has been focused more on contemporary. So they're really going to be sharing this space now, which is interesting. I'm curious to kind of see how that unfolds.
25:51And then, of course, in the UK, too, there's been a lot of talk of endowments. Those are kind of de rigueur in the U.S., but that model seems to be increasingly accepted elsewhere too. Yeah, endowments being a more traditional model. The first two that you mentioned are super interesting to me because it shows that people within the museums, but also the public, is becoming more tolerant of a more flexible idea of what an institution can do. It would have been unheard of, just to emphasize your point, like a decade ago, that two galleries of these levels of prestige would be working together and admitting that they need to work together.
26:27Or as you mentioned about the Toledo Museum, that it would not have so much pushback as it did a few years ago on basically working within the secondary market so upfront and strategically. So there's a silver lining. And I think that, you know, museums do need to remodel themselves. And there's clearly from what we've been talking about an urgency in that. So it's quite encouraging. At the same time, do you think it's going to be happening fast enough? They're playing catch up right now, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think it's not like this kind of revenue that they're sourcing in other ways or the cost savings that they're finding are necessarily just gravy on top.
27:03Like there are deficits that they are trying to fill. So it can take years to come back from some of the shortfalls that we're seeing at these museums, not just in visitor numbers and ticket sales, but also just in terms of operating costs going up. And there's a adage that, you know, museums are more like battleships, so they can't really turn on a dime in the same way that a speedboat can. And I have to credit Brian Boucher with that because he invokes it all the time when we were working on this series of stories. And I think it's really apt because these institutions in most cases have been around for a long time and they have very specific processes and it's difficult for them to just shift gears and just take a hard right and be like, well, we're just going to do this now?
27:46And of course, they also have a lot of stakeholders involved from their board to the public to, you know, their curators. These are huge universes unto themselves in a lot of cases, these big museums. So it's not like they can just decide one day, you know, they're going to do something different. But I think that what a lot of museums are considering now is if they do need to be more nimble, how can they do that and what that looks like on a governance level. And in some cases, as we just mentioned, it's more U.S. style fundraising. Since we published this package, there was news that the British Museum is really leaning into this.
28:22And this October, they're going to have a Met style gala during freeze week, which, you know, was met with some eye rolls from the media world, I would say. What was your take on this? We were chatting about this offline before. I mean, me personally, I could do with one less event in freeze week, But that's just how I feel. But I do think there's some doubt as to whether the British Museum is the right venue for such an event. We've kind of already touched on the issue of corporate sponsorship that they've had historically. And that came up immediately. There was a climate activist group who pointed to the chair that they had elected for this event, who is Isha Ambani, and her family owns Reliance Industries, which is an Indian oil and gas giant.
29:12They claimed that it just shows that the museum remains out of touch. This really isn't like the way to go. I read another piece in the New Statesman that I thought was also potentially right, that the British Museum doesn't have the fashion cachet that somewhere like the Met does, like essentially just not cool enough to hold this kind of event. And they kind of pointed to the fact that the British Museum really hasn't shared any of the quote-unquote luxury brands that they're working with for this. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors. They've got some big actors and actresses coming that they've shared.
29:43But we don't really know what the fashion tenor of this is supposed to be, which is the whole point of the Met Gala. And to that writer's credit as well, and the New Statesman, that the Met has always been deeply embedded in New York society. society. Like that is what the museums in New York have been built around at the end of the 19th and early 20th century. I mean, if anyone's watching the Gilded Age, you know that there were big millionaires who would be billionaires today just bankrolling a lot of these and they wanted to see and be seen at these museums. And that was kind of the function of a lot of the philanthropic drives that these museums launched.
30:20And that doesn't necessarily translate easily into other cultures. That was something very specifically American at the time. Does present-day UK, does it mirror early 20th century, late 19th century US? I'm not sure. And I'm wondering who they're trying to bring in with this gala. I do think UK museums are seeking US funders. That's my personal take. And so I think they're adopting some of these models to attract those kinds of philanthropists as well. But I also think that the nature of philanthropy is changing alongside of all of this. And so whether adopting those models is enough, I think it could be just a short-term solution.
30:59I don't know how much runway those kinds of philanthropic drives have. Yeah, you raise a lot of good points. As well, the Met has a costume institute, so there is like a very clear fashion connection, which pulls in a lot of these celebrities. And the British Museum is a museum of ancient objects, so it's a little bit different. And they're going to be going around the theme of ancient India, which will have a pink theme, but it's to be seen how many A-listers from the States come over. I do think it'll be interesting to watch though, because it could be a bump for freeze week, which, you know, has been, you know, maybe struggling to get the same kinds of numbers of people over.
31:36So it'll be interesting to see. You bring up whether this is the right kind of model. And I think it touches on something that both your piece and Brian's piece talked about, which is this generational shift. Do people want to go to these kinds of events, do they want to fund museums in the same kind of way? What were the takeaways from that and this sort of generational reckoning that's going on? You know, I think this is maybe one of the most significant things that museums are up against right now. It's all well and good to diversify your revenue streams and cut your costs and everything. But if what people want out of the museums, and especially what your donors want out of the museum, is different, then you really have to like rethink what you're doing.
32:15And I think a lot of the next-gen patrons, which I would say, you know, for the purposes of this conversation is like folks who are 45 and under, really. So we're millennials and Gen Z patrons who are still kind of getting their foot in the door in some of these institutions. I think what's crucial here is that they just kind of don't want the same splashy events. They're looking at things on a more holistic level. They're concerned with climate change. They're concerned with freedom of speech. They're concerned with museums. They want to be involved in all of these things and not just one. So they want to make sure that their money is having an impact on all fronts, essentially, is what I've been told by several.
32:55One donor told me specifically that what philanthropists can bring to an institution is time, talent, and treasure. But most often, they're only asked for treasure. But what a lot of the next-gen patrons want to give is their time and talent. So like recalibrating the ask that these museums are putting to next-gen donors is the most important part. That's super interesting. It makes me think about what's been going on at the Hamburger Bahnhof in Berlin. They have this private advisory committee run by two collectors, Mnemonic Berger, who has a collection based in Hong Kong, and Christine Rufelstrasse based in Munich, who, you know, I think would constitute a next-gen collector.
33:34and both of them are really looking to think alongside with the institution. They don't want their name on a wing, but they really want to engage in a conversation that is based in reciprocity with the museum to help support it through this next chapter. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, to summarize, this is truly a crisis with multiple fronts. There's, you know, the crisis over ethics. There's these questions of reinvention. There's cautionary tales that we've touched on from China. Of course, there's the political pressures. the road ahead at best looks bumpy, but the writing, it's not really on the wall yet, I would say.
34:08What do you see in summary when you look at all these stories together and all the reporting? I mean, I wish I had a crystal ball, right? Like, I think that's what everyone's really wanting right now. They want to know that one direction that they're heading in is the right direction. There's so much risk to trying new things. You know, there's the money and time and resources that it takes to do something differently than it's been done. And I think all museums are worried about investing something and not getting the reward because things are strapped. They don't have that money to invest. They don't have that time to invest.
34:39But what is coming to the fore very clearly so far is I think this idea of like more networked institutions, whether that's collaborating together on acquisitions or sharing their patrons or in terms of also just like how they're building themselves, you know, and how they're organizing their collections and kind of looking at museums as a more like rhizomatic kind of thing rather than an encyclopedic kind of thing. And that shift, I think, will take a lot of time to see fully borne out, but I think it's very much germinated right now. I want to go back to something that Lowry said, Glenn Lowry, on the What If podcast.
35:13He noted that museums are actually very fragile institutions. They look like these big imposing kind of authorities, but what they are is something inherently very fragile. that requires a lot of sustenance and nurturing. And they're not getting that right now. And so while they might not all go away, they are very vulnerable at this point. And there are some real seismic shifts happening. So I think whatever they do next, it's going to kind of color the next century of what museums look like. Definitely. I think we can leave the last quote with Lowry because that's a great summation of the stakes and the shifts that are going to come.
35:54This has been fascinating. It was great to work with you on this package. And I do have the sense that there's going to be a lot more coming out of the story. We're really at the beginning of this new chapter is my sense. Yeah, definitely. Thanks so much, Margaret, for being on the pod with me. Thanks, Kate. That's it for this week's episode. If you like what you heard, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, take a moment to rate and review us. It will help other listeners discover what we're doing. The Art Angle is produced by Sonia Manalili with contributions from myself, Ben Davis, Carolyn Goldstein, and Naomi Rae.
36:26Thanks for listening and see you next week.
From the publisher
Museums across the globe are facing unprecedented challenges. In the West, public funding is shrinking, politics is creeping into the galleries, and institutions are asking hard questions about how to stay relevant to their donors and their publics. In an era of increasing scrutiny and diminishing returns, even the most established museums are questioning what long-term sustainability means.
Meanwhile in China, the private museum boom that once symbolized cultural ambition and real-estate wealth is cracking, and some of these lavish new museums are having to close or scale back.
In short, museums are in crisis.
Senior editor Kate Brown recently worked with Margaret Carrigan, our news editor and host of the Art Market Minute, to edit a four-part series examining this issue from different angles.
Margaret joins her on the podcast to talk about the takeaways and the financial, political, and ethical pressures reshaping museums. We also discuss whether this breaking point could be the start of a new era of reinvention.




