13 players who can swing the 2026 NFL season

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1:00Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, we're digging into the players who could swing the season for their respective teams. A lot of the guys we talked about here are from playoff caliber teams or teams that hope to be playoff caliber teams again, because those are the seasons that are worth considering when we're thinking about which way they're going to go. There are not a lot of Browns, Jets, and Cardinals on this show, and I think that's probably how it should be going. We're talking about the guys who could make the difference in these borderline playoff teams feeling like real contenders or feeling like they were a little bit disappointing compared to what their preseason expectations looked like.

1:38Robert Mays: Dug into a lot of fun names today. Really enjoyed this conversation with Dave and Derek. Before we get into the show, one quick bit of housekeeping. Athletic Football Show live at Lincoln Hall, September 1st. please get your tickets. Now we would love to see you on that night. We were doing the wins pool draft at Lincoln hall. We'll do a little Q and a after, or a lot of Q and a, we'll answer all the questions you guys want us to. We'll be around for a while. Do a little meet and greet after the event ends. We had such a blast doing it the first time. We would love to see you all again. So please get your tickets, Lincoln hall website in the description below.

2:13Robert Mays: We're really looking forward to it. Hope you guys are as well. Let's get to today's show. the players that could swing the season in 2026 with me, Dave and Derek right now.

2:33Robert Mays: Today, we are talking about some of the most important players, the way that we see it, some of the most important players in the NFL this season, not necessarily the best players, not necessarily the biggest names, but the guy that is guys that for one reason or another could swing the season for their NFL teams. This is a crazy name to throw out, but it's the name I think about when I'm doing these sorts of exercises. I remember in 2017, when the Eagles traded for Ronald Darby during training camp, it was like an August trade that seemed inconsequential. And I was like, that is the linchpin move for the Eagles winning the Superbowl.

3:08Robert Mays: And then they won the Superbowl because all they needed was another outside corner. And so I'm trying to think of like a dozen Ronald Darby's Dave, as we sit here on August 11th about who could swing the season one way or the other for their teams.

3:23Derrik Klassen: I love that shout. And I, it's a perfect example of the exercise. Cause we talked about it last night before we were like, before we started putting this all together, of course, every team's quarterback is going to swing their season. That's boring. We all know that you don't need me to tell you that the quarterback could do that. Like the goal, what I'm looking for here. And I'll say a few of my guys are much better players than Ronald Darby, but you're still looking for linchpin players that aren't getting that sort of pub before the season who could matter that much.

3:55Robert Mays: So no quarterbacks on this list. Mine are kind of all over the place when it comes to prominence. I got some kind of borderline star players, some bigger names, some guys that are maybe role players within their defense. There's a bunch of different ways that you could go with this, Derek.

4:11Dave Helman: I had yeah mostly guys who were I think too it's a bunch like I had a couple of rookies which I think that's always tricky to talk about because we've never seen them play before I think we've got I've got a couple of players that have reached previous highs that maybe they did not to play to last season but maybe could on their new team and I've got I do have one player that we'll talk about and I figure we might talk about this team anyway for a different reason but one team where they're replacing a player that was very good. And they also need to be very good for this thing to work.

4:42Robert Mays: I'm going to kick us off here because there's a couple of news items that we need to hit. I think we will naturally hit them via my list of players because two of the guys play on teams where that news is coming out. I'm starting with Marlon Humphrey of the Baltimore Ravens. And I was already going to do this. And then the weight Nate Wiggins injury happened today. So we don't have a lot of clarity about what that means for Nate Wiggins. Jesse Minter said that he didn't have a lot of information when he was at the podium earlier today, but that it seemed like it might, they might, there might be some reason for optimism.

5:17Robert Mays: It might not have been as bad as they might have thought. But let's just, for our purposes here, assume that Nate Wiggins is going to be a part of what the Ravens are doing this year. I think that staff, in talking to people when I was in Baltimore, is very excited about what they could potentially get from Nate Wiggins. And when it comes to news, new coaching staffs, it's up to us to kind of figure out the breadcrumbs of like what it could be and how it could look maybe a little bit different than what those coaches had done before. And with Baltimore specifically, I look at having Nate Wiggins there and then they hired Mike Mickens from Notre Dame as their secondary coach and their past game coordinator.

5:53Robert Mays: Notre Dame has run a ton of man coverage over the last few years while he's been there with Marcus Freeman. That's not what Jesse Minter had done when he was with the Chargers. And is that a product of the players, of how Jesse Minter wants to play? So my assumption was, all right, they're going to potentially put more on the outside corners in this defense than we saw Minter do in Los Angeles. Nate Wiggins is set up to hold up in that sort of world. Is Marlon Humphrey at this stage of his career? And it sounded like when I was there that they were really having him focus on playing outside corner.

6:27Robert Mays: that was going to be in his role. His role. They were going to figure out what things look like in nickel and dime. He led the team in slot snaps last year. And so we felt good about Nate Wiggins. And we're going to ask Marlon Humphrey to hold up as an outside corner all year. I think you could talk yourself into other elements of this defense being improved, being improved by personnel, but also just Jesse Minter being there. That, like, if we have to play more one-on-one with Marlon Humphrey outside a corner after what was a down year for him, I see that Derek as potentially a place where this defense could swing for Baltimore.

7:00Robert Mays: And now it might even become more important if we think Nate Wiggins is going to miss any bit of time.

7:06Dave Helman: I mean, I think so. You know, I watched the mailbag you did or not the mailbag, but the news or thing that you did about the Ravens camp and them putting him potentially more outside, which I thought was interesting. You know, on one hand, it's like, yes, you have Kyle Hamilton who can play the nickel and they bring in Jalen Hawkins. And so they would have two safeties that they could play behind Hamilton if they wanted him to play nickel. Like all that makes sense. But to me, at Humphrey's stage in his career, kind of to what you're talking to, he can still play outside. And I still think he's a very good zone corner.

7:33Dave Helman: Like he's still very smart. I'm not sure he has quite the same juice and speed that he used to. Maybe some of the same quickness to hold up in one-on-one. I do think if they want to be a physical and really play a lot on the line sort of team, Like if they're using him the way that they used the mentor being used like Cam Hart a lot last season, I do think that Humphrey can just be a better version of Cam Hart. But to what you're talking about, like that doesn't necessarily allow you to play more one on one man coverage. It's still a lot of zone principle and type stuff like that.

8:03Robert Mays: And it might still be those zone principles, just a little bit more in your face zone principles. I think that's part of the prospect of hiring Mickens. It's not necessarily we're going to be a 40 percent man coverage team now. I absolutely don't think that's going to happen. I do think it is a in-your-face play style thing they're trying to tap into. And so maybe it is more zone with that kind of being the foundation of how they want to play. But either way, you're asking a lot of your outside corners in a defense like that. And so I think if we feel good about Nate Wiggins, Marlon Humphrey is a guy that people thought he might get cut this offseason because of the money that the Ravens might be able to save.

8:39Robert Mays: And so if we're trying to build an optimistic case for the Ravens being this defensive turnaround team with Jesse Minter and going from a really disappointing unit to one that's in the top 10, Dave, I really do think that Marlon Humphrey is like one of those guys where it could tilt either way here.

8:54Derrik Klassen: that just makes me wonder. And of course we don't know what, what the issue is with Nate Wiggins. We'll have to see. I don't want to react too strongly to something that's not finalized yet, but just assuming for the sake of conversation, that it's a pretty serious injury. It's August 11th. As we record this, I would, I would wonder if the coaching staff would adjust some of their goals based on that, because I think that it's worth pointing out. there's a big difference between this happening on August 11th and in season when you're already, you know, you're game planning as soon as the game is over.

9:31Derrik Klassen: Whereas here you have time to tinker. You have time to say, all right, we weren't going to run 40 % man. Anyway, let's maybe we dial that down even further than we were already, you know, or we dial it down from what we ideally had in mind already. If we don't have Nate Wiggins available. Like I do think there's still time to tinker with this if it turns out you don't have Nate Wiggins. But I get your point, though. I mean, just losing him emphasizes the strain on every other cornerback in that room. It just does.

10:02Robert Mays: If you look at it, Marlon Humphrey right now has a$26 million cap hit this year. Like, that's, he needs to be better than he was last year to justify, like, that sort of investment on a team that has a lot of high-priced players. Like there's real opportunity costs in rolling with him at$26 million based on what they got a season ago. And so I really do think that it's going to be way more complicated than this. Nnamdi Matabike is somebody we could easily mention here. I probably didn't just because it's an injury-based thing. We may get to him in a second. But I think we will. I think that you can make an argument maybe outside of Nnamdi Matabike.

10:41Robert Mays: If we look at the performance of one player on the Ravens defense, if we get to the end of the year and we say, oh, man, Marlon Humphrey had a really good year. doesn't that make you feel pretty good about what the Ravens defense is going to have looked like

10:53Dave Helman: over the course of the season I would I think when you frame it that way yes because with Nambi Matabika who we can talk about in a minute it's it's the what his whole thing hinges on it's like is he even going to play and like if he plays at all he's like yes that's a great thing but like we're you know barring him getting injured in the next handful of days or whatever Marlon Humphrey is going to play basically every single snap for this team so whether or not he has a he's a fine starting cornerback type of season. He still tackles well. He makes a couple of plays in zone coverage versus like, oh, he's back to playing like a pro bowler.

11:24Dave Helman: That might be the difference between like whether or not this team can hold up because I do think like Roquan Smith, I know the beginning of last year, I think really stays in people's minds. By the end of last year, he was very good again. I do think the front is deeper than it used to be. And I think that like that safety room with Hamilton, Starks and Hawkins is like really, really good. And so if Wiggins comes back healthy and Humphrey is 15 % better than he was last year, or even really, again, just like a better version of what Cam Hart was with Jesse Minter, we're kind of cooking with this defense.

11:54Derrik Klassen: Okay, but everything we're saying right now is exactly why Nnamdi Matabike was the first name that came to my mind when I sat down to do this. When you're talking about guys that can swing the season, and of course, injury is a huge part of it. Nnamdi is not practicing as of yet. Every time I check in on the Ravens, he's doing conditioning and rehab work.

12:14Robert Mays: We'll see where it goes to the side, wearing a big old neck roll. That's what was happening on the day I was there just waiting.

12:21Derrik Klassen: And that's what makes it so intriguing is who's he going to be or is he going to be available at all? I don't know. But if he's remotely the player that we remember, even even in light of the Nate Wiggins injury, I'm not that worried about the Ravens defense because, Robert, you said, we talked about it a few times over the course of the off season, how many difference making defenders do the Ravens have? And that was coming off of a year where Matt Abike wasn't available. And you felt it like the Ravens were first in defensive DVOA in 23, sixth and 24 and dropped all the way outside of the top 10 last year.

13:01Derrik Klassen: Can't attribute all of that to Nnamdi Matabike, but it's such a huge deal. adding him back to the lineup, I think a him, if he's that guy to Trey Hendrickson, three, Kyle Hamilton. And then if Nnamdi Matabike is playing up to his normal level, I'm so much more confident that Roquan Smith is going to be fine. And so all like, so now we're saying four with a bullet and then whatever you get from everybody else's gravy. I think Jesse Minner can make that work man like I think this defense could be really really good with a guy like that plugged into the

13:37Robert Mays: middle of it affecting everybody else and I think with him even let's say he let's say he does play but even if he doesn't I think the front has more workable pieces now and more skill sets that when you cobble them together I think it's easier to get excited about that group the edge group room is a perfect example where last year you had Tavius Robinson and Mike Green. And now you have two guys that kind of mirror those skill sets. Like Trey Hendricks is in just a more fully formed version of the speed rusher you were hoping Mike Green would be. And Zion Young is coming in to give you hopefully the same sort of skill set generally that Tavius Robinson is giving you.

14:18Robert Mays: So now you have like four guys in that room that all kind of complement each other in the right way, plus being a lot deeper in the interior. The interior is so banged up right now, even outside of Matt Abike. Like Travis Jones isn't practicing. John Jenkins isn't practicing. Calais has been in and out. But in theory, Derek, you're going to have a lot more usable bodies up front. And I think that just speaks to the quality and the variability of this defensive personnel compared to what it looked like a year ago, where it all just felt so much thinner and so much more specific.

14:49Dave Helman: And I think last year it being thinner, like even if the Ravens didn't always have stars beforehand it did always feel like they had depth and so last year them having none of that I think was tricky the the depth I do feel good about it like if you know Jones can get back in the lineup and all those guys if they can be healthier I feel pretty good about the depth at edge and even at defensive line last year I think defensive line depth was one of their worst like toughest spots on the roster at the same time I do still think you need one of your front players to be someone who can get into the backfield specifically against the run and I do think Nnamdi Matabike when I'm looking at the roster now is really the only guy that I trust to do that.

15:27Dave Helman: And so if he comes back and he's, you know, let's say 85 % of what he can be, that is like the biggest delta for what we're talking about here, where he literally might not play versus like if he's 85 % of what he was, he's getting into the backfield once every couple of drives. And he's really allowing you to do a lot of the stuff that you want to do on defense.

15:45Derrik Klassen: I know on off splits are a flawed statistic in football. I know that, but I looked at the 2023 and 2024 seasons. So pretty big sample size to draw from. Nnamdi Matabike on the field versus off the field. The Ravens were, uh, had a 9 % explosive run rate allowed with him on the field. It jumped to 12 % without him. They had a stuff rate of 22 % with him on the field, 18 % with him off the field, like just tremendous jumps when he is available. He's top 10 in tackles for loss over the last two healthy seasons. And third among interior defensive linemen and pressures over his last two healthy seasons, like just a really, really good football player.

16:34Derrik Klassen: And, and at that position, a player that can have a gravitational effect on so many guys, be it other front players, be it Roquan Smith. I just, I don't think you can understate how big it is.

16:45Dave Helman: And that's the thing. I feel like he, the style of player that he is, is perfect for their linebackers. Some linebackers need defensive linemen who can eat up a little bit more space, buy them a half second so that by the time the guard comes up, they're in a great position to just knock them back to. Roquan Smith, and depending on when Teddy comes back, Trenton Simpson will probably be their other backer. They need runways. Those are guys that need space. And if a guy like Nnamdi Matabike can just create a mess and knock a guard back two yards into the backfield, that is a perfect runway for a player like Roquan Smith or Trenton Simpson to go make a play.

17:18Robert Mays: And that's, it's interesting because these light box teams, they all play, they'll run a little bit differently. And Jesse Minter, he'll let the defensive lineman get after it a little bit in order to account for that stuff. Like it's not just, we're going to two gap and we're going to play everything really kind of passively. And they'll try to muck things up a little bit more by letting guys be a little bit more aggressive. And that's exactly what you're getting out of Matt Abike.

17:42Dave Helman: If you kick someone's ass hard enough, you can get two gaps you don't have to like that's how you steal the gap back yes you see you steal

17:50Robert Mays: the gap back with violence not not by not by holding up at the point of attack and so I think that's interesting you saw that a little bit with the Chargers last year all right Derek who's your first guy here your first player that you feel like can swing the season this year yeah I actually

18:03Dave Helman: want to talk about your Chicago Bears a little bit I think for me it's Garrett Bradbury the center he's also on my list yeah okay I figured we might be talking about Luther Burden which you know we might at some point. But Garrett Bradbury, to me, like anytime. So for most of Ben Johnson's time in Detroit, he had Frank Ragnow. He was healthy for almost all of 22, 23 and 24. And obviously those lines and those offenses were incredible. And then last year, Ben Johnson goes out and pays a lot of money to get Drew Dahlman, who short of Creed Humphrey and Aaron Brewer might have been the best center in football last year, like especially in the run game.

18:38Dave Helman: He was dominant, Like what he was able to do with Jonah Jackson and Joe Tooney, I think was was exceptional. Garrett Bradbury, I think, is fine. Like he played decent football for the Patriots last year. He's a pretty good athlete. He's just not the same people mover as as, you know, Dolman's not necessarily like a mauler either. But I do think he's a little bit stronger than a guy like Garrett Bradbury. So I think we're going from a place where you're replacing, again, I think like the third best center in football last year to a guy who is average at best. And I'm wondering like how much of a drop off do we see in the offensive line play and in the run game with that being the case?

19:13Dave Helman: Because like the only path forward to me for Bears being, you know, 12 win team, then being at the top of the division and that stuff like that is the offense is like fireworks show. And I do think that the center being like a dominant player or at least a very good player, he's not going to be as good as Dolman. But if he can be closer to that, then we think that I do think goes an extremely long way for this team.

19:34Robert Mays: this is precisely my thought process and argument is that i'm now terrified about the defense right before we started recording this we just saw that kobe bryan is now going to be out four to six months with knee surgery instead of those eight to ten weeks so you're looking at the the bears situation on defense and the safety depth specifically and now cam lewis is supposed to be able to play nickel but now kyler gordon's hurt and so cam lewis cam lewis would have been your backup safety well now kyler gordon's also hurt so he's having to play nickel a little bit It's just a position they're already not deep at.

20:05Robert Mays: And so I'm just very worried about what the state of the defense is going to look like. And exactly like you said, Derek, so if they're going to be an 11-win playoff team, the offense is going to need to carry them. Can the offensive line play in the run game be in the same general area it was last year when Dahlman was giving you what he was giving you? I think my goal with Garrett Bradbury this year is that we just never talk about Garrett Bradbury. If we're going through the season and he's just never a consideration, like the thought of like, man, we're the bears really missed true Dahlman.

20:36Robert Mays: I hate watching Garrett Bradbury every single week. As long as that's not happening, I do think the other pieces can lift you up. Other people are going to point to the left tackle situation and be like, well, that's a concern, isn't it? They don't know who they're starting left tackle is going to be. They didn't know who they're starting left tackle was last year. Like that was a revolving door and it didn't matter because you can hide one guy. And so I think Bradbury being able to get within spitting distance of a version of what you got from Dolman last year. I don't have many doubts about the skill position talent.

21:08Robert Mays: Like I think that's kind of wheels up. I'm ready that, that I feel like it's going to be really, really good. But if Bradbury can give you something akin to a diet version of what Dolman did last year, and you can keep building as an offense to me, that it's almost the most important question about this team period.

21:26Derrik Klassen: It's funny. I'm I'm one of those people that circled the left tackles and I hear I hear you Robert but the reason I when I was looking at this I'm so interested in the left tackles I think because Garrett Bradbury has been starting in this league since 2019 and so for better or for worse I think I think you know what you're getting I guess Ben Johnson and playing between Tooney and Jonah Jackson could elevate him. Yes, that's the hope, right? He gets, he gets hit both literally and figuratively between those two guys. He's still so much of a no. So, so much more of a known commodity than whoever comes out of this left tackle thing.

22:06Derrik Klassen: And last year I'm like, okay, if left tackle is the one weak point on the line, you can definitely hide that. If it's two guys who are struggling, all of a sudden I'm really worried. and ideally you were not talking about Garrett Bradbury, but it would be amazing if one of these left tackles could step up their level of play. I don't know how optimistic you are about that, but the other interesting news coming out of bears camp right now is that Ryan poles is the latest guy to say Ozzie Trapillo could be back faster than everybody expected, which is just blowing my mind, by the way, like I can't believe we're at a point where they're not ruling out a potential return by him during training camp.

22:49Derrik Klassen: I think that's the long shot outcome, but that's still insane.

22:53Robert Mays: Because of how the left, maybe because of how the left tackle position went last year and the fact that they did have to cobble it together with three guys last season. I just living that life again, as I'm ready for it. Like I do think they can cobble it together with three to four guys. again. The center thing is just such a different challenge than it was a year ago and a different consideration. I think that's why it's in front of mind. Maybe I should be losing more sleep about the left tackle thing, but because I've already seen them do it, it leaves me a little bit less worried about it.

23:25Dave Helman: That's actually where I took it. Like I've like, yes, we've already seen Gary Bradbury played a lot of NFL games, but we've never really seen the Ben Johnson offense without an elite center and i'm not saying that like the entire ben johnson offense hinges on whether or not his center is elite or not but we haven't seen that and i do think that we've seen him already put together an offense with like whoever you're putting out at left tackle

23:50Derrik Klassen: i think that's i think i think you're both right but the having uncertainty at two positions makes me really nervous but i think you're probably right that bradbury fixing it is is the more realistic outcome probably.

24:06Robert Mays: I think the hope and the cope is that you have such a good run game designer. And coaches talk about this all the time, like who we put in the hard downs on. Can you remove as many of the hard downs as possible from your undersized center and just ask him to be like, the things we're going to ask you to accomplish are going to be based on you being able to move a certain way. And can you build the run game that way? It's like Dolman's undersized too. Obviously he's capable of being the third best center in the league in a way that Garrett Bradbury is not. I think you're hoping for average, but I think that if I, again, if I'm coping a little bit, it's that Drew Dahlman and Frank Ragnall are very different players.

24:42Robert Mays: And we saw the Bears construct, we saw Ben Johnson construct the most efficient running game or one of the most efficient running games in the league with two very different types of centers over the last few years. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about a few more of these guys. Hey everyone, Michael Beller for Behind the Scenes at The Athletic Football Show here. I run TAFs and our college football show, the audible at the athletic. And so that means I've got a lot of tasks on my plate. Most of those are fun to do. There's a reason why I'm in the business.

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28:41Robert Mays: So the next guy I wanted to talk about is another kind of more prominent player than I expected when I was doing this exercise. but I was in Buffalo yesterday and a name that kept coming up when it comes to this defense, just feeling a little bit better one and two, the reason that Jim Leonard got hired and somebody that had come up a lot in the process in terms of like his vision for the defense and, you know, things that they can maybe tweak a little bit. It's actually at Oliver. And the reason that I, I want to go with at Oliver, isn't because I think that at Oliver is like a volatile player and, you know, like they need a better version of that all.

29:17Robert Mays: This isn't like the Marlon Humphrey thing. I think it's, if you're talking yourself into this year's version of the bills, it's that we will feel the defense in a different way than we have over the last few years. And that includes the best players. Like if we're getting the best versions of every guy defensively, I think when we think about that with a coordinator, it's usually, oh man, like this role player just had his career year under this guy. Like what a great coaching job. But that multiplier applies to your best players, too. And so the idea that Ed Oliver in a defense where we're getting more 5-0 looks and he's getting more one-on-ones, we're moving him around to create those pass rush opportunities a little bit more.

29:57Robert Mays: Do we get to a place by the end of this season where in this system, Ed Oliver is weaponized and had the best season of his career? He's a second team all pro because of what some of the third down and pass down stuff looks like from the Bills. And that fuels this unit looking like a different version of the one that we've looked at over the last couple of years. And so it's a slightly different version of answering this question. But I think after being in Buffalo and hearing about some of their lines of thinking, I actually do think it applies to the conversation that we're having here.

30:29Dave Helman: But I can buy that, too, for almost the same reasons that I would Nnamdi Matabike. We're like, I mean, Ed Oliver played, what, two games last year? Like, he really was not on the field hardly at all. And so the fact that they were missing him for a lot of last year, he comes back this year and he's obviously going to be when he's on the field. I think he is him and Christian Benford, I would probably say, are their best players. And this is also a linebacking core, similar to what I was talking about with the Ravens. They are not like defensive line buys them a half second. They can come up and punch the guard.

30:59Dave Helman: And now the air is squeezed out of the run fit. They need someone to create a mess and they're going to run in and backfill and be able to get into the backfield. Both Bernard and even Dorian Williams, who I think is going to start a linebacker for them. that is what they are best at i don't know man is he not who is it gonna be they like they like

31:14Robert Mays: the kid caleb elam's or it's like making like a real let's go that guy next to terrell bernard

31:21Dave Helman: that's real even he he that's what he does he's an athlete like these are guys that like it's run and hit and so if they can if you have oliver who i think that that's what he's best at right where you're slanting him you're allowing him to penetrate get into the backfield and also day on walker like as a nose that's what he does like he's i you know i know he's a bigger guy but like that's what he does is he gets into the backfield and so and I know they drafted TJ Sanders last last year who we talked about a little bit on a different show where like at his best I think that that's what they want him to be so if this is like a very attacking we're slanting we're creating all this stuff for these linebackers you can start to see the vision if Oliver plays back at the level that he was which was kind of what you were talking about we're like not lock it in all pro type but like he's been knocking on the door the last couple years when he had been healthy

32:07Robert Mays: I think you're, yeah, it's a great thing to point out that he did play three games last year. I'm more mean. It's not that he needs to necessarily be a better player than the, like the last time we saw him on the field consistently, it's not that he was bad, right? It's not that we need to be an improvement over that in terms of quality. I think it's more so about deployment. And again, like the subtleties and the nuances of how this defense can feel a little bit more dangerous. And yeah, the front is going to be fascinating. Like it were, we got players that were picked for a very different system that are now going to be asked to do a lot of different stuff and you mentioned tj sanders is that third interior guy they're moving landon jackson inside so he put on like a ton of weight this year and he's really five technique yeah i kind of like

32:47Dave Helman: that actually he that's what he does best is set the edge like hit hit in the run game i how much did he add on did they say like he looks big i think it's like 15 pounds i think he's at like

32:57Robert Mays: two like i think he's like 280 285 right now and when you when you look at him he looks big and initially he was not mixing in that much with the first team and now it's like I think it's going to be a real question of week one we're in base is it tj sanders or landon jackson and so it's I just think there's so many it's the defense that defense period is just so intriguing to me like what it's going to look like how like what which players does that help like scheme help make sing and oliver to me is the guy I keep coming back to where it's just like he's had more than five sacks once in his career.

33:31Robert Mays: Can we get back to a place where he gets eight or nine and he feels like the most important, impactful player on the defense in part because of how they're using him? Again, if we get to the end of the year, Derek, and Ed Oliver has eight and a half sacks, would you feel pretty good about what the Buffalo Bills defense was in 2026?

33:49Dave Helman: Yeah, probably. If you told me that he had that sort of season and one of the DBs took some sort of step, that would probably be like enough to be like, yes, that defense is what you wanted it to be. That was too much of a hesitation for my preferences.

34:06Derrik Klassen: I think that would be amazing.

34:08Robert Mays: I understand where he's coming from because there are a lot of other considerations.

34:11Derrik Klassen: There's some other issues on the roster, I think.

34:14Dave Helman: Yeah.

34:14Robert Mays: But I feel where I'm where I'm at with it is like you said, Derek, like I want them to make a mess. Let's make a mess. Like they just have not done that. And that's what I want to see from this group. is like, I'm not trying to shit on Sean McDermott. Sean McDermott was a really good, stabilizing defensive coach for a long time. But we got to a point where the defense, especially up front, just wasn't very exciting. It just was not an exciting brand of defense. And now I do think we have a chance to get there. And if that front can play that way and have that sort of production, it almost is like what you say, where you're saying with the two gapping and with the defensive lineman, Derek, it's like, we'll figure the rest out.

34:56Robert Mays: Like if we're making a mess and we're really like creating opportunities and making things hard for people up front, a lot of the rest of that stuff figures itself out.

35:05Derrik Klassen: Not exciting is such a great way to say it with the bills. And some of that's not their fault, right? Like there were a couple of years where they were just cobbling it together out of injured players and dealing with loss after loss. And Sean McDermott did some really admirable jobs building a functional defense out of what was healthy. but I often wound up feeling so underwhelmed, whether because of injury or because a guy just didn't take. And talking about Caleb Elam's or like, there have been so many years where I've been excited about the top 100 picks coming in. And I mean, Dorian Williams was that guy for me a few years ago, and it never quite materialized the way you wanted it to.

35:45Derrik Klassen: Cole Bishop is rounding into being a good dependable player and maybe he'll keep ascending, but he wasn't that guy early in his career. I would love it if some of these offseason additions and some of these young draft picks hit right away. It would be so refreshing for a unit that has kind of leaned on the old guard for as long as the Bills have, which ironically, you're talking about the oldest member of the guard of all. But if Ed Oliver benefits from it, that would be great.

36:14Robert Mays: All right, Derek, who's your next one here?

36:17Dave Helman: I'm going to stick on the defensive side of the ball. I've got Rashawn Gary of the Dallas Cowboys. And I'll admit, I was not like super enthusiastic when they made this move. But I think the more that I sat with it, it's like I'm starting to, I don't know if I see the vision necessarily, and I'm like optimistic that we're going to get there. But I've at least found the case where like this could be a pretty big swing player for them. This, if we remember, Rashad Gary had really started to come on like around 2021, 2022. his pressure rate from 2020 to 2023 hovered anywhere between about 16 to 19 percent or according to NFL Pro then Jeff Halfley comes in and that number drops to more closer around 13 percent and I'm not saying that's necessarily Halfley's fault but player in a new defense sometimes things are just going to happen and he had never quite felt like he had got back to some of the highs that had got him paid originally now he's going to Dallas where they've obviously completely retooled this front but he's playing I think next to some defensive tackles that will make his job easier and he's now a guy that is I think a pretty good scheme fit for what they want to do and is now being a given a role and given an opportunity where it's like hey you're the guy here you need to be like our pass rush demon and so I just think that there's a chance that if he plays closer to the pro bowl like consistent pro bullish guy that got him paid originally that we can get there and I think I will say too like you could have picked what a half dozen players for probably the Cowboys defense, right?

37:45Dave Helman: But I have one.

37:46Robert Mays: My next guy is a player on the Cowboys defense. I was having a hard time figuring out who I wanted to land on because there are so many ways you could go with it.

37:54Dave Helman: There truly were so many ways. And the only reason I picked Gary was that to me, along the front four, he really felt like the guy where they're like the biggest delta between like what he has been at times and what he can really be at his peak could swing things and then the secondary it's just like there were kind of too many guys that i just didn't know who to pick which became the problem oh i think you could go if you want to stick with the front

38:19Robert Mays: i think you could make an argument for azaraku too i knew you were gonna say azaraku i knew that's

38:25Derrik Klassen: where you were gonna go with that you could go with that you could go with gary i saw him setting the edge in practice the other day i'm very impressed by what i'm seeing when i started

38:34Dave Helman: this i did almost pick azaraku the only reason i picked gary is that if we're talking about swing, right? Like we're talking about like, what can this guy be on his high end? Maybe as Raku has some peaks, but like we've seen what Rashawn Gary can be at his peak. And that is a difference making NFL football player. So I think that's the reason I picked him is like, we've seen it. Can he get back there? I'm not, you know, we'll see.

38:56Derrik Klassen: Maybe it's not fair. It's a new scheme. It's, you know, he's, he got traded somewhere that really wanted him. Maybe he feels rejuvenated, but like the end of Gary's time in green Bay is just hard for me to get excited about. Maybe that's not fair, but that's just how I feel. I mean,

39:12Robert Mays: playing with his hand off the ground again, like this is good. Hopefully like the scheme fit thing is just something to consider. I, there's a billion different ways you could go with this. You go with Caleb downs, but it with a rookie, it's always so hard to know. And like the guy I went with is probably less exciting. And I'm with you, Derek. I think maybe Gary gives them the biggest fluctuation, but the guy I went with, it was Kobe Durant for a couple of different reasons. I think that having like a solid, solid outside cornerback play if Duran Bland is going to be in that other spot. Cause I think that was, I think the second outside cornerback spot when they came into camp was up for grabs.

39:47Robert Mays: I don't, I don't think that anyone had been penciled in there. I think they felt good about Bland in one of those spots. And then the other spot was like, we're going to let it play out. We're going to roll the ball out. We're going to see where we're best. And I actually think that for it's for Durant, a couple different reasons. If he can solidify that second outside corner spot in some looks, and then the other thing about Durant that is like, all right, what could the Cowboys defense be over the course of the year? What are the layers to this? He can move inside. And so if you're going to try to play a little bit more dime and you can put Ravel in there because you feel good about him as depth and Durant moves inside while Caleb Downs plays that dime linebacker spot, and that's a way to get six guys on the field that you feel pretty good about on a team where I think the number one question about the defense is off-ball linebacker quality and depth, Kobe Durant suddenly becomes a really important pivot point because beyond his own play, he potentially allows you to play in a way that you want to over the course of the season.

40:48Dave Helman: Also, my thing with Durant, and this is a thought that I keep having looking at this roster, and I brought this up on Mina's show when I did the NFC East preview. I know that Parker is coming from the Fangio world, but when I look at what the DBs are, especially at corner with Daron Bland and Kobe Durant, those feel like to me, quarterback vision, eyes on the quarterback, we're driving on route sort of players. It's what Kobe Durant was really, really good at at LA. He wasn't always the best like run deep down the field on vertical route stuff, but he could play the quarterback and attack, especially when they were playing a lot of these blitz fronts.

41:20Dave Helman: that to me is what their cornerbacks do best and so I wonder if they are a little bit more Spagnuolo Flores-ish influenced than like the Fangio tree typically is I'm not saying they're going to lean all the way into it but I wonder if it does look a little bit more like shoeless

41:34Derrik Klassen: defense than necessarily like Fangio's I think Durant would be my answer to this for the Cowboys because you have which I did not forget about Quinn and Williams I want to be clear but when the news of his contract extension came down. I was like, oh yeah, holy shit. Yeah, that's great.

41:53Robert Mays: I did have the same thought. I did have the same thought because it was such a dumpster fire at the end of last year that it's almost one of those things where you're like, you forget that if you're trying to build the case for optimism for the Cowboys defense, it starts with Quinnen Williams, a guy that we just have not seen there for very long. So I'm with you on that. I'm not going to give you shit about that. I have the exact same response where it was like, oh yeah, Quinnen Williams on the Cowboys. That's cool.

42:17Derrik Klassen: but like with, with Quinn and Williams anchoring that front and what he can do and how he can help all the other options up there. I can make my peace with that. The secondary is what scares me. And Kobe Durant, I'll say till I'm blue in the face is a good football player. And if he can just sort of hold everything up to get creative and, and lift up the rest of the guys in the secondary, particularly the cornerbacks, I just, I feel much better about what they have. If he's available.

42:48Robert Mays: All right, Dave, who's your next one here? I feel like we skipped you for like two turns because mine was connected to Derek's.

42:53Derrik Klassen: I just feel like each guy we say reminds the other two of three guys that they wanted to talk about. It's fine. I want to talk about. So I reverse engineered this. I want to talk about a certain team and that team is Carolina. And I was sitting here debating players, players that could swing Carolina's season. And here was my thought process. if Caroline is going to win the division again and be a better team and be like a legitimately good team and not just a mid team in a bad division, what do you think is more realistic? Bryce young becoming a wholly different player than what we've seen through three years or the defense becoming like a legitimately pretty kick-ass unit.

43:39Derrik Klassen: I think that is the, the more realistic answer of the two things. That's fair. And if that's good, if that's going to happen, Derek Brown is like a rising tide, lifting all boats sort of player. Like, obviously, the Panthers made two of the biggest defensive additions of the offseason. Jalen Phillips and Devin Lloyd are both awesome. But like they're going to be unlocked to their truest potential by Derek Brown being one of the best DTs in football. And he is, by the way. But like if he puts together a season like that, maybe unlocks another level as a pass rusher and opens things up for Jalen Phillips and let's, you know, takes the pressure off that secondary.

44:23Derrik Klassen: I think that's the path toward Carolina being a legitimately exciting team, because it reminds me of the conversation we had about the Saints the other day. Like the Panthers made a legitimately great jump on defense last year. They went from unplayably bad in 24 to like 22 in defensive DVO a last year. That's a great success story, but it's still not good. If they can get too good on defense this year. Now we, we might be talking about a different sort of Panthers team. And if one guy is going to have a hand in that Derek Brown is my vote. What say you?

44:59Robert Mays: The only reason I push back on a little bit and it's just because I just think he's good. like I just I think that we know what he is and like it I think there are other guys that when I think about the season what he is I'm I didn't even do the wind horse fingers on purpose

45:14Derrik Klassen: but do we do we know what he is with like all pro caliber players around him like do like have we seen Derek Brown can I ask that question I mean I know I say what you will about Devin Lloyd but he officially was all pro last year and then jalen phillips i mean true i hope he has all pro potential for the money they gave him goddamn like come on i think that's i think that's where i

45:43Dave Helman: i think that is my only contention with it is that i think maybe i'm just too hung up in the devon lloyd of it all because but i will say at the same time like devon lloyd i think

45:52Derrik Klassen: not again what if devon lloyd looks like the guy from last year consistently because derrick brown is just mauling everything in front of him every down, which is what he does.

46:05Robert Mays: That's my thought is that I would, I think it's to me, it's probably more Devin Lloyd because I think that Derek Brown's level of play. Like, I think I know what I'm going to get out of Derek Brown. I think I need Devin Lloyd to be the guy they paid in order for this defense to be as good as they want it to be.

46:21Derrik Klassen: My argument would be Devin Lloyd is going to be that guy if Derek Brown is wrecking shop for 17 weeks. that's my contention.

46:29Dave Helman: I do get what Dave is saying now because I do think last year with Devin Lloyd not that the Jack I don't think the Jaguars interior was all that good but the defense as it was constructed always put him in really really good spots like I think especially in coverage they just put him in really really good spots. I don't know if that's necessarily going to be as true in Carolina even though every else defense is fine but I think if Derek Brown just by virtue of being the third or fourth best nose tackle in the league is putting him in advantageous spots, maybe you can get there. Again, I'm still dubious that he can play at that level consistently, but if he can do that, and if Phillips is giving you a little bit more presence on the edge, there is a chance that this defense does take the jump that they need.

47:09Derrik Klassen: Derek Brown obviously didn't really have a 2024 season, which was part of why Carolina's run defense was so atrocious, but across his last two healthy seasons, so 23 and 25, Derek Brown leads the league in run stops, which is classified as a tackle that leads to an unsuccessful rushing play. And he's fourth in the league in run stuffs, which is a tackle for zero or negative yards. He's top five in stuffs and leads the league in stops. The only guys who have stuffed more runs than Derek Brown in that time span are Crosby, Quinnen Williams, and Miles Garrett. it. He's an awesome football player.

47:50Derrik Klassen: And I guess you're not wrong, Robert. Like, obviously they need Devin Lloyd to be that guy, but all due respect to Devin Lloyd, I think him being that guy is going to hinge on, on that. And so I think, I think Derek Brown, like having that sort of season where he plays like the best nose tackle in football is the most realistic path toward the Panthers having that sort of defense.

48:15Robert Mays: And I think you could make an argument that Jalen Phillips could be here as well. Like if Jalen Phillips stays healthy for 17 games and Jalen Phillips, Jalen Phillips has the sack season. He's never had before the Panthers just didn't have that player last year. And so I think there's a bunch of different ways you could go with Carolina's defense on this one. Even though at the end of the day, I think that's the team where who's the swing player for the Carolina Panthers, the quarterback, the quarterback is the swing player for the Carolina Panthers.

48:40Derrik Klassen: Okay. devil's devil's advocate like Bryce needs to be better but like if Bryce is only marginally better but the defense is like top 10 at everything I mean I'm not picking the Panthers to win the Super Bowl but that's like that's a team that could win 10 games and kick somebody out of the playoffs I have my doubts about that yeah I think they're one that I need to see it until

49:08Dave Helman: So I think I need to see it with them.

49:10Derrik Klassen: The crappier version scared the shit out of the Rams a year ago. I think the one that I just outlined could ruin somebody's season at the very least.

49:19Dave Helman: That felt like a weird Rams had like a weirdly specific Achilles heel for that team or something.

49:26Derrik Klassen: It's a it's a weird one off game with an oblong ball, guys. Like, that's the whole point.

49:31Robert Mays: Well, it's also the Panthers could scare anyone for one game last year. That was the whole thing with the Panthers is that there was a game. There'd be games where they would look like a top five team in the NFL and there would be games where they would get blown off the field.

49:43Dave Helman: They got swept by the Saints in their series. Swept by the Saints.

49:49Derrik Klassen: I I'm familiar. They beat Atlanta 30 to nothing to like they're the weirdest team in the world. But like if their defense is legitimately great and Bryce Young just stays out of the way, they'll they'll just be better than last year is all I'm saying, which is not that high of a bar to clear.

50:05Robert Mays: I think I have questions about if their defense could be legitimately great. Even though they brought in those two guys in free agency as high priced players, like Jalen Phillips is really nice on the Eagles defense where he's, I mean, I guess you could make an argument that you have JC Horn, you have Derek Brown, Derek Jalen Phillips could be the third best player on your defense and you could still have a really good defense. But I do have overall questions about what the ceiling of the defense is, even though I think that to your point, They're absolutely better set up to be a borderline top 10 unit than they have been over the last couple of years, surely based on the talent that they have.

50:39Dave Helman: I don't think you're crazy for saying what you just said about the Eagles, though, because I would say two of their DBs are better players. I think both of their defensive tackles, when they're healthy, are better players. Like Zach Bond probably is. Again, Jalen Phillips is a good player, but there is a difference from being the sixth-ish guy compared to pretty definitively being the third.

51:00Robert Mays: That's kind of what I was getting at. But I think that, yeah, that's not to discount the fact that the Panthers do have a couple of lead players. And Mike Jackson played at that level last year. And so there's an argument to be made.

51:10Derrik Klassen: If the three big dogs play up to that level, then I think this could be a pretty nice unit. I hesitate at, like, top 10. That's, like, out over my skis a little bit. But, again, they were 22nd in defensive DVOA last year. If the three big names play up to that level, I think they could be substantially better.

51:31Robert Mays: than that i guess my hesitation in terms of what you said when it came to all right if they're the top 10 defense and bryce plays the way he did last year like how how would you feel about that team they finished 24th in offensive dvoa last year like if they're the if they're the 23rd best i think there are reasons to believe that they can be better than that coker being healthy all year is a big part of this jonathan brooks and like the mystery box that is jonathan brooks like i'm very much open to the fact that the carolina offense independent of the quarterback can feel more dangerous and dynamic and explosive than it did last year.

52:03Robert Mays: But if they're the 18th best offense and they're 11th best on defense, that doesn't really scare me all that much. Like maybe that's enough to win a shitty NFC South, but beyond that, how much different is that team really than what it was a year ago?

52:16Derrik Klassen: Okay. Can I be, can I be an asshole for like five seconds though? Cause I I'm taking swing the season very literally. Matt, like if, if the Panthers beat the Rams in Charlotte last year, How does it change the complexion of everything? I mean, I guess it doesn't keep the Seahawks from winning the Super Bowl, but you get my point. Like a better Panthers team can change the landscape of the league for the year. That's my contention here.

52:46Robert Mays: I don't know if I agree with that. They just feel fake to me. I don't know if I agree with that. I'm open to being wrong about it. Listen, if the Panthers defense comes out and they're like the fourth best unit in the league, I'll happily eat crow. I just even I have questions about what this what this team's ceiling looks like based on how the quarterback plays. That's I know that's not an interesting place to land, but like I just can't eject that from my brain. All of all pants.

53:12Derrik Klassen: Yes, it all boils down to that. And that's completely fair. But whatever. I wanted to talk about Derek Brown for eight minutes.

53:20Robert Mays: All right, let's take our next break and then come back and hit a few more of these guys. with the discover cash back card it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases activate and earn five percent cash back at different categories each quarter on up to fifteen hundred dollars in purchases that's five percent cash back at different places each quarter like grocery stores on gas and at restaurants it pays to discover terms apply see discover.com slash five for details. This podcast is brought to you by Thompson Reuters. The best don't just do their work, they change what's possible.

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54:25Dave Helman: all right jake you got one more i have two more i actually think jadarian price for the seattle seahawks is like a pretty big swing the season player i had like 14 guys and he was among my

54:37Robert Mays: 14 guys that i wanted to talk about i really do like this they so obviously the the story with

54:43Dave Helman: the Seahawks offense last year is JSN. But by the end of the season, teams kind of figured out what to do with their passing offense a little bit. And they really had to become a running team. And they did like over the second half of the season, including the playoffs, they were at 0.0 EPA per rush, but that was 10th in the league. And they also had 12 runs of 25 plus yards, which was basically one a game. The only other team that was doing that over that stretch was the Ravens. And obviously, when you have Derrick Henry, you're going to be able to do that. And it was actually a pretty even split.

55:12Dave Helman: And, you know, I know we think of Kenneth Walker as like the explosive guy, but it was kind of an even split of Walker doing that, of Charbonnet doing that. They're like one or two of those were like Rashid Shahid plays. But I do think, you know, obviously with Charbonnet coming off of the injury that he's having and then Walker being gone, you really do need a guy like Price to come in and give you the explosives, the field flipping plays that you want on offense, because that's what this whole thing is built about for them. Like they need to hit explosives. They can be kind of efficient, but the offense is like, hey, the defense is going to give us good field position.

55:44Dave Helman: We're going to flip it in one or two plays and boom, we're in scoring position. And so I think whether or not Price can give you that, especially again with Charbonnet not being healthy, especially at the early point of the year, whether or not he can do that, I do think goes a long way in determining whether or not the Seahawks offense can feel similar to what it did last year.

56:02Robert Mays: It's interesting. I hear that, and I think that's a good way of thinking about it. If it's about replicating what they did last year, I'm really interested in how different the offense feels and in what they're asking their players to do. Because I think that's right. If we're going to try to figure out, okay, we have the same model we had last season. How do we get back to the Super Bowl? Judarian Price replicating or approximating what you got from Kenneth Walker is very important in that. I think that we're going to see some different wrinkles for what the offense feels like with Brian Fleury as the coordinator.

56:35Robert Mays: And I actually think that's part of the reason I wanted to include Jadarian Price in this. The Seahawks last year, I believe, finished 31st in the NFL in the number of their pass attempts that had five guys in protection. So getting five guys out in the round. They were 31st in the NFL. the Niners I think finished fourth but when you compare that to total pass attempts the Niners percentage is up near the top of the league and so I do think we're going to see more we're going to see fewer heavy protection big play action shots as like the centerpiece of the Seahawks passing game this year I do think we're going to see more guys out in the route and Jadarian Price what he's been as a pass catcher in training camp has been one of the things that's really jumped out to that.

57:19Robert Mays: Like when you look at the past catching backs of the Seahawks last year, it was mostly that Zach Charbonne was playing on passing downs because Kenneth Walker couldn't pass protect. That's why they did it that way. I think they'll ask their backs to protect less this year. And I think it'll create more opportunities for Jadarian Price in that role. And I think that's going to give this offense a little bit of a different flavor than it had a year ago. And so I had the same guy, but for a slightly different reasons, even though I think the starting point, Derek, was exactly where you brought it.

57:49Dave Helman: That is interesting, though, and this is why it's great that you do all the training camp tours. Janarian Price didn't catch passes in college, and I think sometimes you're scared of that. You look at the numbers. I do think with him specifically, it's easy to be like, well, yeah, Jeremiah Love was like, why would you not just have Jeremiah Love on the field doing all that? And I do think that there probably is some validity to that, and so if he's looking good doing it in camp, and they think that Sam Sam Darnold is a guy who, because I think I do, I will say, I think part of why Sam Darnold works is they don't ask him to do that as much.

58:19Dave Helman: But I think if that's something that they can get him to be comfortable with, and Jadarian Price is comfortable handling that and, you know, getting out on time, making sure he's at his landmarks, catching the football correctly. That could be like, like you said, these offenses, these defenses are always going to have to change a little bit if that's their wrinkle. Because again, like, that's not something that Kenneth Walker did a ton. That is, that is interesting because that was the part of it. I just didn't feel comfortable projecting because, again, he didn't do it. And I haven't really seen them in training camp.

58:46Robert Mays: I don't think they're going to run a Niners offense from last year. I think that they'll do a lot of the same things and carry it over that they were really good at. But I think that's potentially one layer that we didn't see. And that's the element of Price's game that I'm really interested in watching.

59:00Derrik Klassen: Since we're talking about him anyway, can we flip over to the other side of the ball? Let's do it. Oh, who do we got? Robert, what's your read from being in Seattle on the secondary and just like what, like the structure of it this year? Like, I mean, are we just plugging guy? Like, are we plugging Josh Jobe and going or are we, is there more happening there? And obviously I know him and worry hasn't been practicing, so maybe it's hard to say.

59:28Robert Mays: I mean, Joe will be one of the outside corners the same way he was last year. Right. And I think that it's, so it's going to be, when Imanwari comes back, we'll see Job and Witherspoon on the outside. But I think they really want to make sure that they can continue to use Witherspoon inside. And so I think that's going to make that third outside corner spot, the one that, you know, a combination of Job and – let me do that again. Five, four, three, two, one. I think they want to find a third outside corner in order to use Witherspoon in the ways that they want to. And so when I was there, Julian Neal was not practicing.

1:00:04And so it's been 12 days since I was there.

1:00:09Robert Mays: I don't know what that looks like now compared to what it looked like then. My understanding in that moment is that Nehemiah Pritchett was probably heavy inside track or if they had to play today, he would have been the third outside corner to make sure they could continue to move Witherspoon inside. it's safety it feels a little bit more unsettled in a good way where I think coming into camp Tai Okada was going to be the guy that was next to Julian Love that's one of those this is classic safety specifically all right we you feel good about the floor that Tai Okada gives you we saw what he could do in the defense last year does Bud Clark give you a little bit more of a ceiling because the range and the man coverage ability is just like a slightly different notch above I think that's the conversation that Mike McDonald is going to be having with himself over the next few weeks as they figure out how they want that group to shake out.

1:01:00Robert Mays: So I think that's kind of where I land. We're like, we still need to figure out the third corner. That's like a question mark where it's like, we'll see who that ends up being. At safety, I think it's a question mark, but complimentary. Like we're sorting between two options that we feel good about for different reasons.

1:01:17Derrik Klassen: So that's more or less what I gathered. and that's how I settled on Josh Jobe being a guy that could really swing things for the Seahawks and I don't want to sound like I'm betraying my guy I love Josh Jobe but I do think there's an element of and by the way I think it's it's good team building assuming you catch the right breaks to let reek woolen walk sign Josh Jobe three for 24 draft Julian Neal and that enables you to sign JSN and spoon and Byron Murphy and whoever comes down the pike after that, it makes perfect sense. It hinges pretty heavily on Josh Jobe and to a lesser degree, Julian Neal to step up and, and be those guys.

1:02:04Derrik Klassen: And like Josh Jobe was, I thought he was great, especially down the home stretch last year as the CB two and a guy that you could count on to not be like a lockdown quarterback, but just consistently do his job. I think naturally when you're working with two established starting cornerbacks, instead of three, it just gets that much more difficult. And I think the spotlight is that much brighter on the guys that are left after reek. Well, and it's not to say Josh job is a bad player or like, or like he proved himself as a good player last year, but you're reducing the number of known commodities in your secondary.

1:02:43Derrik Klassen: And I think it's just easy to kind of land on Joe because you feel that much better about bouncing spoon around and doing all of that fun shit. If there's somebody on the outside that you can just count on, like that was the value of reek woolen is everybody else is running around having a blast doing God knows what having the time of their lives and reeks just out there consistently for the most part being a steady presence. Do you have that guy now? It needs to be Josh Joe. and I think he's up to it but I don't know that he's as good as reek woolen

1:03:19Dave Helman: yeah like last year they would kind of tell you that they think that he is but I still do think that like cornerback two cornerback three on this team whoever it is and however it shakes out in that order that does to me that is what is going to hinge whether or not this is arguably the best defense in football again or do they feel more like the sixth best defense in football which is obviously still really good and I trust Mike McDonald a lot and this front is incredible but I do think the fact that they had three really really good corners last year and maybe now they only have two and maybe there's a chance that you just deal with a little bit more health issues at that spot I do wonder how that's going to go again I trust Mike McDaniel or Mike McDonald to get these guys right but losing a player like Tariq Wollin even if he wasn't like a full-time starter by the end like that is going to matter with the way that they like to move their secondary.

1:04:07Robert Mays: It's interesting like i think that it goes back to the ravens conversation where the ravens i feel like they would rather have keep those guys on the outside and figure out who the depth is on the interior i think seattle the thought process is flipped where it's like we would rather have to worry about you know whoever and you know i think you can correct me if i'm wrong on this derrick but the way that they played the corners they had josh job into the boundary in order to kind of can account for the fact that maybe his change of direction is the way he who he is as a player is something you have to worry about they one would play the field just because of the range that he was able to the range that he brings to the table so the fact that that's a harder job right and so the idea that that's that's the guy that they now have to replace what does that end up looking like i i probably should know more about that in terms of who's been playing the boundary and field corners when they move witherspoon inside i don't know what that has looked like from training camp that's i'm sure people who cover that team have done a good job of pointing out but it they would rather say we'll figure out how we need to get by at one of those outside cornerback spots because we need to move witherspoon inside in order to access all of the things that we want to be as a defense and so it's it's interesting to see how these different teams think about it differently we're like in seattle it's almost like we need our alohi gilman at corner in order to move witherspoon in all the places that we want to where with other teams it's like ah we're just going to worry about who's we're going to worry about who the third like the second interior player is it can be key on martin some undrafted guy and so the way that these different teams think about those spots differently because of the players that they have i think that's it's it's noteworthy and i think this is a very good example of that where teams are

1:05:51Derrik Klassen: considering that in different ways it's worth saying too julian neal's six two with 33 inch arms and runs like a gazelle, he might be able to step in and give you some of that right away. We just haven't seen him yet. I mean, I think he just hit the practice field for the first time this summer yesterday. So maybe in 10 more days, everybody in Seattle will be saying, ah, we're, we're good. Julian Neal is as advertised, but right now I'm looking at it and it, it makes me, it doesn't make me nervous. I think Derek nailed it. Like this could be the difference between Seattle being a normal good defense and Seattle being like holy shit where do you go with the football you know and like and that's absolutely that's a that's a big difference from what they were by the end of last year and that's the difference between winning or losing the Super

1:06:40Dave Helman: Bowl I think the Seahawks with the sixth if the Seahawks were the Jaguars defense last year who were like fifth or sixth by DVOA they do not win the Super Bowl and so like it's it does like again they'll still be good I trust Mike McDonald and the rest of the players but that little bit of a difference that is what gets you championships all right Derek you have one more I do have one more and we can do this quickly because I think we've done this in five different ways this off season Keelan Rutledge for the Houston Texans I think among all of their offensive line shifts and offensive line changes he to me is the one that is I picked him because I think he's the biggest unknown like Wyatt Teller has played for a long time in this league Brayden Smith has some injury issues but I think we know that generally when he's out there he's been a pretty good player and then Ursary and Ingram are coming back.

1:07:26Dave Helman: Keelan Rutledge is an unknown, not only because he's a rookie, but he's changing positions. He played guard in college and he is, I think, expected to play center here. Whether or not he is like, if he is not sinking as a rookie and he can actually give you something and he can give you some of that moving, mauling people that you want, I do think that that can be the difference of their run game being not great, but can get them into downs and distances that the offense works, as opposed to there where they were the same last three years where they're the third worst rushing offense in the league and they cannot do any of what they want on offense it's funny that we were thinking about the same units Derek

1:08:02Robert Mays: but going with different players I almost went with Keelan Rutledge but we've talked so much about it that I that's why I went a different direction but you're right like you're absolutely right like if he can be somebody that's just an ass kicker from day one and and I think the with him specifically, this is even a better argument for it. If he can play center, that allows why Keelan Rutledge is going to start for this team. It was, the question was going to be whether it was a guard or center and it was going to him starting at center, I think was, do we feel good about where he's at mentally to be able to handle some of that stuff within the offense?

1:08:35Robert Mays: If the answer to that is yes, let's pencil him in at center, because if he plays center, that allows Wyatt Teller to play guard. And then you get more physical at two positions. And so I think that's what is such an important consideration here. And it does sound like we're trending in a direction where he is going to be the starting center for this team. And so now you look at that interior and Wyatt Teller, who knows how many games we're going to get from Wyatt Teller. Maybe it's eight games, maybe it's 10, but for those eight to 10 games, Ed Ingram can be trying to think about generous. I want to be with this.

1:09:06Robert Mays: He can have some low lights and pass protection as a run blocker. He can, he has moments as a run blocker. Like he can really establish himself in that area. And so Ed Ingram, Keelan Rutledge and Wyatt Teller is your interior trio is just a vastly different level of physicality. And we were talking about with the Texans offensive line from last year. And so I think it's on multiple different fronts. He becomes a guy that potentially swings that unit.

1:09:35Dave Helman: And he's just like, I think again, this goes back to, it's not even just them being better. Does it feel hard? to play against the Texans offense. Because last year it didn't. Like, there would be times where, like, sure, CJ Stride makes a great throw. Nico Collins dunks on you. Jaden Higgins makes a cool play. But it didn't feel hard to play against the Texans because you kind of knew what you were getting a lot of time, and they just couldn't move you off the ball. If they are actually beating the shit out of you for three quarters, and then you get down to it in the fourth quarter, and you're just like, please, God, don't run duo again.

1:10:06Dave Helman: Don't run duo at me. And then here come Keelan Rutledge and Wighteller, and they just move your nose tackle off the ball. Like, I do think that having that on offense, when you obviously already have that on defense, them rounding out that like ass kicking mentality for their team, I do think that that's going to make them like the most grueling 60 minutes of football in the league.

1:10:26Robert Mays: I can't even tell you the degree to which you hit that on the head. It's exactly what their thought process is like 100 percent correct.

1:10:34Derrik Klassen: my guy Landry Locker who does good work down in Houston said today that Keelan Rutledge and Will Anderson got in a fight during a walkthrough that's hell yeah which that sounds right but

1:10:46Robert Mays: that is so telling because they want Will Anderson's on offense that's the whole point of him being there is that we need Will Anderson's on the offensive side of the ball so it's a joke but it's actually very telling.

1:11:00Derrik Klassen: He said it's Rutledge has had four scuffles during camp. Like, I mean, yeah, they were telegraphing what they were doing by drafting him. Like we said that on draft weekend, but it's exciting that we're here now watching it in practice. Can't remember the exact situation,

1:11:16Robert Mays: but he was like in the locker room and they were just mentioning something about like CJ getting hit or like something happening to CJ. And he like, he's just like not on my watch. essentially like, and this is just like in like a random off season moment where he was just like, no, we're going to protect the quarterback. We're going to kill those guys. And it's like, my God. And I think it's exactly right, Derek. Like they just, they want, they needed an edge on offense that they like, can the offense have the edge? Our defense has, I think that was so much of the thought process. And I think that's the guy that hopefully gave it to them.

1:11:50Robert Mays: I, my guy on the, I picked another guy from the Texans offense that I think, I think yours is the right choice, but we but we talked enough about it that I went a slightly different direction I went with Jaden Higgins just because I think that if we're talking about the Texans receiving core by the end of the year as like one of those diversified like dangerous in a bunch of ways types of pass catchers and he can be that intermediate slasher that kind of adds a couple layers to his game he didn't have last year to go along with Nico Collins to go along with the vertical stuff you get from Jalen Noel, like how we think of Jaden Higgins as a number two receiver by the end of this year, to me, will go a long way.

1:12:29Robert Mays: And what we think about the Texans offensive skill position talent, like, are we going to get to a place where when we're talking about the best receiving cores in the league or the ones that are best constructed, the Texans come out of your mouth in the same breath as the lions or the Colts from last year, like, is that going to happen? And I think that happening is really dependent on how we talk about Jaden Higgins by the end of this season.

1:12:52Dave Helman: I mean, I do think as far as the pass catchers go, he's the best guy for that, because I think, you know, Noel can do some different stuff in terms of like he can run those outbreakers. He's really good on the vertical stem, but you do kind of want to hide him. And like, I think you do want to use him in particular ways. Niko Collins, I think, can obviously do a lot, but you probably want to play him at X. Higgins really, I think, is a lot of their move around player. Like he was tight to the formation a lot of the times last year, but you can still play him outside. You can put him on the line.

1:13:17Dave Helman: He's not like great with the ball in his hands, but he's pretty smooth for a guy his size. Like he really is kind of a, not can you fix all of our problems, but like we can literally just like slot you into almost any route into any formation. And I do think, you know, you and I both talked about this. I think we were both questionable about like, what really is he coming out of college? And I think that last year he was, he was a much better player early on than I thought he was going to be. And I'm actually kind of optimistic about what he can look like going into year two.

1:13:43Robert Mays: I am too. And I think part of it is if you were going to look at his body type and be like, that's an X, I'm going to stick him on the line of scrimmage all the time. I don't think he would be a good player in the NFL. I think he'd be fine. I don't, I think we would have some concerns with him. The idea that because you have Nico Collins, now he can be a move around piece where you're getting him off of press coverage. You're just asking him to do the things he's only good at and minimizing the things he's bad at. I think that's what creates the optimism. And what's been cool is that not cool because you never like this, but Jalen Knoll has been hurt.

1:14:15Robert Mays: And so they've been able to experiment with Higgins a little bit more than they would have just in terms of where he's been lining up in part because of that. And I think it's taught them some things about what he's potentially capable of as you move him around the formation. And so that collection of pass catchers there, I think has a chance, again, is just be a group that we talk about with a little bit more enthusiasm by the end of this season than how we talk about them right now, even if there is a little bit of underlying optimism.

1:14:43Derrik Klassen: I'm starting to get that. It's all going too well feeling about the Texans that you were mentioning with the Rams a week or so ago.

1:14:51Robert Mays: Like the offense was so bad last year that we have so far to go before we get there that I think they were still a little bit of a ways off.

1:14:58Derrik Klassen: I, but like everything is equalized by how good that defense is. Like your, your standard for what they need to be is just so low that you wind up talking yourself into some crazy shit and i have to like pump the brakes just at least for a little while until we can like get to the end of the summer all right i have a bunch more guys i wanted

1:15:20Robert Mays: to say very quickly just go rapid fire go for it uh i got i got one more real quick i'll go fast

1:15:26Derrik Klassen: let's do it we got a real one let's go we just we talked about it earlier this week so i i won't go super long i i just want to put it on wax that this is how i feel and he's not this is not a sleeper player, but it's one of my biggest pet peeves in football is there are so many good receivers that the minute, the minute you're not lighting the world on fire, you're just not good anymore. If AJ Brown is even close to the AJ Brown, this is a great one. I love this. They, they might go back to the super bowl. Like, and everybody's just sort of acting like Like that's not realistic because AJ Brown had only a thousand yards last year in the offense that throws the ball like the least often in the NFL.

1:16:12Derrik Klassen: I'm pretty sure he's still good. I went back and looked. So over the last three years, AJ Brown is sixth in the league in yards per route run. He's seventh in explosive receptions. He's 12th in EPA per target. He's eighth in first downs per target. Like obviously just an amazing player last year, which was this supposedly terrible year and he got traded and he's 29. He was 13th in yards per route run, 25th in first downs per target, 10th in explosive receptions, 18th in EPA per target. So like definitely not as good, not bad at all, not remotely bad. And again, this is an offense that doesn't play this explosive throwing the ball all over the place style of football and Drake may is a better quarterback than Jalen hurts.

1:17:04Derrik Klassen: In my opinion, I just, I think this has the potential to be absolutely gangbusters. And if it is the Patriots are going to be a problem. And I just, I feel like the trade was so weird because we spent four months waiting on it to happen. And we were so tired of hearing about the drama in Philly. I feel like that's clouding our perception of things. And I think it should be a bigger deal that a receiver of this caliber is linking up with the guy that almost won MVP. And I just want to state that I want to have that in posterity to look back on later.

1:17:40Robert Mays: I like this a lot. I don't disagree with anything that you're saying. I've been thinking about it a lot since we recorded it. And in my list of 10 guys that we weren't going to get to, one of my answers here was just the left side of the Patriots offensive line, because that's what I keep coming back to. my inability to get a handle on the Patriots is not what Drake met what AJ Brown and his best would look like with Drake may I know how good that looks I think I'm a little bit worried about what the whole thing is built on up front based on how last season ended and I think you could easily make an argument well will Campbell was hurt last year Elijah Tucker wasn't even on this team last year but the last time we saw Will Campbell it was not going very well and we haven't seen Elijah Vera Tucker play a lot of football over the last several years.

1:18:26Robert Mays: And so even if we can get really excited about the Drake May, AJ Brown element of this, I think, again, the foundational aspects of the offense, how well they run the ball, how well they pass protect because of what we last saw from the offensive line, even if the personnel should theoretically be better. I think that's what's in the back of my mind. I want to allow myself and I am allowing myself to get really excited about what AJ Brown and Drake May could look like together. It's the other stuff that I can't totally get over. And that's why if we did 20 of these each, the left side of the Patriots offensive line combined would have been one of my answers.

1:19:04Derrik Klassen: It's funny. You're not wrong, but it's funny. You're, you're fixation on the playoffs and it did look bad. And I never do that. I was comically bad. It was a lot of, but they were playing in the final game of the year. They were in the last game that you can play, and that was with the offensive line being what it was and the receiver core being pretty good, but nothing to get excited about. They played three not-functional offenses en route to getting there. I think that's part of that. That's the reason. There was some fraudulence to what the Patriots did last year. I'm not debating that. I don't want to use that word.

1:19:45Robert Mays: I don't want the blowback from that word. You can say it. I don't want to say it.

1:19:49Derrik Klassen: There was a degree of fraudulence to it. I have no problem saying that. But anybody that is offended by that should listen to me say they were still a really, really good team. And more importantly, a really, really good quarterback. Like, I hear what you're saying about the boring foundational stuff. And that does need to be better. But if you can be that good, and let's say, like, don't even, like, screw the record, screw the Super Bowl. But like if you're a playoff caliber team with Drake May playing behind that line and those receivers, adding an explosive element like A.J. Brown into the mix, I just think could pay off even if the offensive line is the same as last year.

1:20:29Dave Helman: and I think the difference to me last year for as good as the Patriots offense was it always felt like it hinged solely on what Drake May was capable of if it is oh the quarterback is an MVP type of guy and also they have the third best receiver in football fourth fifth whatever you want to put him at that I do think is kind of like a supercharged thing and like there's a chance maybe with the age he falls off a little bit but AJ Brown has he was the best receiver on a Titans team that like had no business being as good, like getting as like being the offenses that

1:21:02Robert Mays: they were like, he was some of the most efficient offenses in football because like those two

1:21:08Dave Helman: players carried an unbelievable burden and Ryan Tannehill was fine, but like to get where they got and like get the one seat in some of those years, like unbelievable. And then he goes to the Eagles and like immediately changes their offense, immediately changes what Jalen Hurts is able to be. And then they win the Super Bowl shortly thereafter. after I think that he can do that again with with the New England Patriots like I the offensive line does need to be a little bit better but I think even if honestly even if the offensive line is around what it was last year and you just tell me that defenses have to play them a little bit differently because they have AJ Brown and Romeo Dobbs that to me is probably enough it probably

1:21:44Robert Mays: is you guys are probably right I don't know what it is I don't know what it is I never do this I'm never like oh man the playoffs like i i'd never i think it's because it was four games and not one i think that's the problem it's not the way the season ended it's the way that what 25 percent of the regular season is comprised of look the way that it did the real the irony here is they opened

1:22:08Derrik Klassen: the season in seattle on banner night like it might look bad again it might look bad again right or it

1:22:14Robert Mays: It might look great, right? It might look great. All this stuff might be moot. Listen, the degree to which I hate even being a moderate AJ Brown doubter because of all the other stuff we're talking about pains me to my soul. We did a non-QB draft in 2021, and I picked him like fourth. And people were like, what? And I was like, nah, man, this guy is the fucking truth. Like, he is so good, and he has only been better than that in the last five years since I did it. And so I do not want to be in a position where I'm a little bit worried about what AJ Brown's team is going to look like. I want to believe in this.

1:22:49Robert Mays: There are just a couple of things right or wrong. I've been, I've said this multiple times over the last week. I mean, the last two shows we've done, I could be wrong. I could absolutely be wrong, but right or wrong. There's just something that, I don't know, just making, it's making me feel itchy.

1:23:02Derrik Klassen: It's really icky to be the guy. That's like, are we talking enough about the new England Patriots? Like nobody wants to be that guy. We're putting each other in really shitty situations here on multiple

1:23:12Robert Mays: different fronts. All right. Let me do my rapid fire of guys. You mentioned the guy replacing Tariq Wollin. How about we just go with Tariq Wollin? Sure. Tariq Wollin is one of those guys we easily could just throw out there. Left side of the Pats O-line, a bunch of different ways you go with this for the Jags. Trayvon Walker. We talked a little bit about Trayvon Walker and like the stuff he could take. Travis Hunter. Travis Hunter is absolutely a part of this. And the my hipster pick for the Jags is Branson Combs, the off-ball linebacker that they might have to play next to Foyer because they're in a moment now where Ventral Miller and Branson Combs are fighting for that spot.

1:23:48Robert Mays: And so it's the, do we want the thumper or do we want the converted receiver? Who's going to give us a little more coverage ability. And I honestly think trying to tap into that bit of Devin Lloyd is probably more important structurally to the defense. And so Branson Combs suddenly becomes a really important piece for Jacksonville. I think that's real. Jordan Morgan and Warren McClendon, same idea. just offensive tackles on guy offenses that want to be top five that we have questions about

1:24:14Dave Helman: Dallas Turner I also had him before I whittled my list down yep Dallas Turner is like all right

1:24:20Robert Mays: we need a guy to replicate what Jonathan Bernard has been maybe Caleb Banks is so good that it doesn't matter but I think Dallas Turner is worth mentioning here Jadarian Price was on my list Quentin Johnston yeah if the Chargers are going to be a top four offense what sort of season do we need from Quentin Johnston? My answer is a pretty good season. Quentin Johnston needs to be a dynamic, explosive player for the Chargers to be who they want to be on offense. In the same general vein, Mike Evans.

1:24:50And

1:24:51Dave Helman: that one's trickier too because it's a lot about health. Quentin Johnston is just like, can he just play better?

1:24:58Robert Mays: We're in a space now where all we've ever wanted, I think, collectively as a football-watching community, is just to see Quentin Johnston use the way that he was at TCU. Yeah. Can we just get like a bunch of crossers and the opportunities and like all that. And I do think that's exactly what we're going to get. And to Quentin Johnston's credit, he has been a much better piece of an offense when not being used that way than he was as a rookie. And then I thought he could be as a rookie, but I still think that there's more meat on the bone. If Quentin Johnston's role just looks like all the best shit Quentin Johnston does.

1:25:30Robert Mays: And we stick Trey Harris on the line of scrimmage and have him be the guy running wind sprints all day.

1:25:34Dave Helman: I said it at some point before, if Quinn Johnston basically just gets treated the way that like Evan Ingram does, I feel like that is that is the runway plays for Quinn Johnson, though.

1:25:45Robert Mays: I want more like out the gate runway plays for Quinn Johnson over the middle of the field.

1:25:50Derrik Klassen: Yeah. Mike Evans is a great shout because he heard his quad and I just got so upset that I stopped thinking about him. But he was back at practice today. So the dream lives on.

1:26:00Robert Mays: well it's a it's a there can only be one situation Nick Bosa now is never going to play football again so it's one in one one guy and one guy out for the San Francisco 49ers all right that is all we've got for today we've got a fun show coming tomorrow I don't want to say it because if we do have to pivot because I like miss my flight or something I'll be very sad but I'm really looking forward to tomorrow's show uh and I will let you guys find out what that is when it hits your feed, but a lot of good stuff coming your way. Quick reminder, live show, Lincoln Hall, September 1st, Chicago, Illinois.

1:26:37Robert Mays: We are doing the Winspool draft live at Lincoln Hall. Tickets are available on the Lincoln Hall website. I assume they're available in the description below, which you can click on. We are very excited about doing another live show. We do a little Q &A after the Winspool draft is over. We'll hang out for a bit. I've mentioned this. Lincoln Hall has a really cool little bar area in the front. We'd love to hang out, say hello to all of you when you guys come by. So come on. It's going to be a fun night in September. We had a really good time the first time. Please get your tickets to the live show.

1:27:08Robert Mays: I think that you'll be happy that you came. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

1:27:51We'll see you next time.