Commanders come back to stun Giants, 24-21

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1:56Robert Mays: That's Apollo.io. Welcome to The Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. Thursday night football, Commanders, Giants, way more interesting on so many different levels than I think we probably thought it was going to be heading into the game. This is a 45-minute conversation that touched on the future of the Giants, the future of the Commanders, the stuff we saw tonight. So a lot to dig into in what became a pretty intriguing matchup and a pretty big win for the Washington Commanders. We did it all with me and Dave and Derek. Let's get to it right now.

2:38Robert Mays: With about like four or so minutes left in that game, My thought was just, man, there's a lot to dig into, but a lot of good stuff from both teams. Just some impressive coaching jobs, I think, on both sides of the ball. I thought J.J. McCarthy played really well. But a pretty normal game, all things considered. Like a back-and-forth game, a fun game. And then there are 10 things that happened in the final three minutes of that game that I just couldn't wrap my mind around. And so I think we have to start with some of those. Maybe the first one being Rasul Douglas decided to drop a pot fly on the second to last play of the game and then decided to follow it up.

3:16Robert Mays: That's the Matthew Golden of defense. That's what we're calling it. That's what Rasul Douglas just did to put this thing away.

3:22Dave Helman: Which like before he caught the second one, that's like a classic Rasul Douglas thing. Going back to his Philly days, I remember Philly fans being like, he just can't catch the football. Like he can be in position, he can do stuff. And so the fact that obviously, you know, he I think fixed this a little bit when he was in Green Bay. but to have a moment where it's like, oh my God, old Rasul Douglas is back. And then he makes an insane catch on the second one, by the way, which like that made it more confusing.

3:47Derrik Klassen: I was ready to shout out Darnell Mooney for playing great defense on that ball. And then they showed the replay and I was like, nah, not, not really. Like it just went through Douglas's arms. It was too high.

3:59Robert Mays: He made up for it. It was the ball was too high. It was like fielding a punt. It's already, there's already a reason he plays defense. There's another reason he doesn't return kicks. So that happened. The Giants specifically, I thought that they called a great game for most of the game. I thought that their pressure plan was excellent. I was ready to come on here and compliment the staff and J.J. McCarthy and just the way that they handled this whole thing. The two kind of drive-ending plays in their final two drives, I hate the third and three call to essentially run a give-up run with McCarthy with less than two minutes left.

4:32Robert Mays: I understand that you're trying to make sure that you're keeping the clock running there. your offense has been pretty good all night if you get a first down on that play the game is over and instead they give the ball back to Washington with plenty of time they go down and score a touchdown and Derek their pressure plan was excellent throughout this entire game and then on the final drive they decide their cover zero answer is it we're just gonna chuck it up twice

4:56Dave Helman: that's why I'm glad you talk about like before the final four minutes happened we were going to talk about a completely different game because I'm with you like I thought the backs were protecting well I thought their plan to keep like Washington's blitzes under bay and even some of like the Cam Scadaboo toss into the boundary touchdown run. They're expecting inside blitz and Luvu does blitz and they just hit it on the boundary because there's nobody there. And so like they were doing such a good job with stuff. I thought J.J. McCarthy like replaced the blitz pretty well for most of the night.

5:23Dave Helman: And then, like you said, on the last drive, it it didn't even seem like he wanted to sit there and replace the blitz. And like, to be fair, Washington went like all out and they were bringing like seven and eight. And so there were free runners, but he wasn't even trying to find like where the space would be. He was just like, I'm going to chuck it up. And he did that like four times and eventually it bit him.

5:41Robert Mays: I understand there's 30 seconds left. You feel like it's a little bit harder to take an underneath completion, but you still have a couple of timeouts. I mean, you can move it a little bit differently than they were trying to.

5:53Derrik Klassen: It's not hard to take those completions, given that they had the timeouts. Like it very much felt like the giants thought that they had to score a touchdown and they had to get these chunk plays. I was like, we can nickel and dime this if we want to. I mean, I'd prefer to play for the touchdown, but with a young quarterback and the situation at hand, like I wouldn't have blamed the giants for playing for overtime there, even if I'd prefer to go for the throat. And it didn't seem like they were interested in doing that.

6:21Robert Mays: And then on the other side of the ball on the digs, touchdown Washington, or the Giants bring cover zero on that play. And I didn't like that either because the previous two short yardage, high leverage calls on those fourth and twos, they had it completely gloved up. And I just didn't think, I thought Washington's calls on those fourth and twos, those are situations where Jaden Daniels' legs have to come into play there. I just think those are the situations where you have to create some sort of conflict because their passing game in general, I was looking at the numbers in the fourth quarter overall, and some of this is skewed by the touchdown to digs, but, but for before that final drive, Jaden Daniels was averaging like four and a half yards per attempt on shotgun throws in this game.

7:07Robert Mays: Like their pure drop back game, there just wasn't a lot happening. They were on under center or pistol plays in this game. And Jaden Daniels was seven of seven for 99 yards. And then on from the gun, he finished 16 of 26 for one 50. And that includes the huge digs touchdown. And so them just lining up in the gun and going pure drop back on fourth and two when you have a quarterback that theoretically should be able to really make it hard on defenses. I didn't like that at all. And then I feel like Durante Jones going with the cover zero in that situation kind of gives them a freak. Like I get you get out of jail free card.

7:42Robert Mays: He gives them an answer in that moment that they couldn't find on those previous fourth and shorts earlier in the half.

7:49Dave Helman: I thought too like and if you think about it like it makes sense like so many plays I thought the Giants defense made there were like what five or six incompletions in the flat in this game from Washington where like their guys are just driving on the ball one or two of them were dropped but like guys are making plays they're getting interceptions like I thought they did a really good job taking that away from Jaden Daniels and then like you mentioned it felt like the only time Washington had consistent offense was they came I think it was right out of the half maybe they just came out on this drive where like everything was the pistol they hit like the sail route to uh to send it yeah to send it like out of the backfield and then later on they hit Antonio Williams for the touchdown like they were doing a really good job of forcing the run past conflict that they kind of told us they were going to do in August and really haven't

8:34Derrik Klassen: actually done a lot of this season that was the stretch of the game because that was Washington's Second drive was the sale to Senate. And before that was the giants touchdown drive where JJ hit Malachi fields on the corner route that like made me sit up in my seat. And there was like a 10 minute stretch where I was just like, we're hoping here, this is like a quarterback duel. What the hell's going on? Which my overall thesis for this game, this was a perfect Thursday night. That's actually right. That's a hundred percent. Right.

9:08Robert Mays: that's kind of what I meant about before the first four minutes I was like this was great but then there was fodder at the end yeah I also I think that's part of it being perfect though you're

9:18Derrik Klassen: having like the fact that it had a stupid ending you're just like ah this is this is what it's supposed to be but like you know I I sat down and then the Giants missed the chip shot field goal at the beginning of the game and I was like this is gonna suck and like a half hour later I was having the time of my life and JJ made some good plays, obviously made some dumb plays at the end of the game. Jaden picked it up at the end. Sonny styles and Arvel Reese were all over the place. Like if you're tuning in to see the two young first round picks, you got everything you could possibly want. Sonny styles didn't just have the pressure on the pick, but he had a fantastic third down tackle at the end of the game too, to set up a fourth down incredible stuff.

9:59Derrik Klassen: Like the young players were balling. The quarterbacks had some moments. We got some stupidity. We had some cool special teams plays. Uh, the, the Luke McCaffrey, like lie down, you kick recovery. That was awesome. It was an awesome play. Like I just, and also I know that the giants are leading the division, but these teams are clearly more plucky than good. And so like, it was kind of, it was low stakes and we didn't like waste a fantastic game on Thursday night. Like this was just, it was chef's kiss

10:30Robert Mays: perfect of what you want from a Thursday night game. The only thing I agree with everything that you just said, the only thing that was missing, I needed that immaculate reception. Trey one Burks play in the first half to be complete. So bad. The one that ricocheted halfway across the field that they said was a catch and wasn't that. So the, the just mechanics of that play were incredible. The other best part of that play is that Al responded to it. Like it was the most ho-hum completion in the history of the NFL as the ball deflates halfway across the field as he often does in those moments.

11:04Dave Helman: I will say there are a lot of things about the college game that are different. I feel like those plays somehow get completed more in the college game. Just like weird, bizarre, like I've never seen that before type stuff.

11:16Robert Mays: I want to start with the Giants part of this, because if Malik neighbors doesn't fumble that ball, there is a very good chance that the Giants just kind of take control of this game in the second half. squeeze the life out of it and win, if not convincingly, then like as if they had control for the second half of that game. And I think part of that is I thought JJ McCarthy was legitimately really good in the second half of this game for huge swats of it. The first half reminded me a little bit of the Houston game. Dave talked about the corner route throw to Malachi Fields. Like that's the type of throw where he's staring that thing down the whole time and he's ripping it.

11:55Robert Mays: And then he throws the double move to Malik neighbors. That's stuff that again, similar to the Houston game where he's making throws down the field, but there are throws that it's the first read within the play. The offense is being very well fed to him and he's just making a throw down the field, which is great, but it's not the most like advanced quarterback stuff in the second half of this game. I thought the rhythm that he was playing with, whether it was there are two plays that really stick out all of the underneath. I know where my outlet plays are. There's a lot of them are either, you know where your answer is against the blitz, or he's going one check down, one check down, just playing with like good rhythm in the second half.

12:33Robert Mays: But the two plays that really stick out, the fake toss play action that they had coming all the way back on the cross or coming back to the left, he gets all the way back to his third option on that play in rhythm to hit that third in breaker for a chunk gain. And then obviously the touchdown to likely, I mean, he's staring down the barrel of the gun on that play and just rips that ball over the middle between two linebackers. And so there were multiple different plays in this game. I thought that just showed a little bit more nuance, a couple layers that he wasn't necessarily even asked to do or we didn't even see in the Houston game that are encouraging for him.

13:12Robert Mays: And to me, Derek, it's again just another example of the coaching staff for the Giants has just, I think, done a really good job on offense this year. And for 56 minutes of this game, I think they did it again.

13:26Dave Helman: They have. And like, I agree that this game was different than the Houston game for the most part, especially in the second half, because the Houston game, he makes five really impressive throws. It was a pretty low success rate game. Like he did not make like down to down consistent gains. This game, I felt differently about that. Like, obviously, you know, it was a little stop and start in the first half. but in the first half they were doing a lot of like we're gonna dare you to either find the soft zones against our two high stuff or we're gonna blitz and dare you to find you know the the underneath option and I thought for the most part he like acquitted himself and again if they don't miss the field goal early and if we don't have the Malik neighbors fumble like they put up more points than obviously they actually have at the end of the game and it probably looks like a more impressive performance and so I thought he for the most part played pretty well in this game Obviously, whatever happens in whatever happens in the final two minutes is just like dumb young player stuff.

14:16Dave Helman: And like he should be better than that. And obviously, Washington, like way turned up the heat in those moments. But I don't think that that should wash away what happened for the first 57 minutes of this game. The other thing I want to say on the the likely throat, that's a crazy throw. What is Nick Cross doing on the blitz, though? I have no idea. He's like that was weird. He's like he stops up as if he's afraid that JJ will run, which like to be fair, JJ is a really good athlete. Like there was a play where he outruns Sonny styles in this game. Like obviously he can do that.

14:43Robert Mays: He used his legs multiple times. Well, in this game, he really did rope scrambled on the left sideline was really impressive. It was really nice play.

14:50Dave Helman: And so I get why you might be scared of that, but I'm still like, I'd rather make him go make that play than just like not when you have a free run at the quarterback, like that's the point of calling a four week blitz like that is that you're going to get a free run.

15:02Derrik Klassen: I found myself wondering if he was afraid of drawing a flag, but, and like, I get that that's a possibility, but he's a safety. Like you're not, you don't weigh 300 pounds. Like if you put all your weight into that hit, I don't think it's going to look as bad as it would if it were an edge rusher and like, just go deck him, man. I understand that quarterbacks do get those sorts of calls, but you can't hesitate in a situation like that.

15:28Robert Mays: They overload that side. And so obviously they're bringing one more than the giants have to account for it based on the slide. But that's just another play where Scadaboo picks off. I think it was sunny styles on that play and at least makes it one instead of two and he was consistently how many like really nice like teach tape type reps of taking on the blitz did cam scadaboo have in this game four or five different plays where he's just like

15:52Dave Helman: stonewalling guys in the hole and a lot of them are against sunny styles who like is a big guy who has a lot of violence coming downhill he exploded tyrone tracy in the first oh yeah exploded tyrone tracy which like puts in context how impressive what scadaboo was doing exactly like tracy gets exploded like that and so i really do think it was impressive he like scadaboo obviously just in his overall play style has a physicality and willingness to just go and hit people but it's like his technique is actually pretty impressive like he plays very square he plays under himself he knows when to like punch like it's actually it is pretty like teach tape stuff in that regard.

16:32Derrik Klassen: Also eyeing down the sky cam is all time Thursday night football stuff. That was so funny. It made me laugh out loud.

16:38Robert Mays: I mean, this was the camp scataboo show between the 20 commercials that we had over the course of this thing. Plus him, I'm down the sky cam. I mean, I've seen the state farm one, obviously a thousand times. What was like the online marketplace ad that he's doing now? That's a new one. I hadn't seen that one yet

16:52Dave Helman: where he's like slamming his head through every wall to buy whatever. Yeah.

16:57Derrik Klassen: Good for, He's a fourth round pick. Sign all the endorsement checks they will let you sign.

17:04Robert Mays: Listen, when Dak was doing the sleep number and Oikos yogurt ads back in the day while he was making 500 grand a year, I completely understand it. You got to get that money while you can. But it's funny that the majority of this broadcast, both during the game and during the commercial breaks, was heavily featuring Cam Scadaboo. And he scored twice, so good for him. Overall, I don't... As I think about big picture takeaways for the Giants, I don't know if this is fair or unfair. It's just it's being reductionist. But I think I saw a lot of the same things from them tonight that I had seen for a good chunk of this season that made me think I really like the foundation of things that is being are this being built here.

17:47Robert Mays: I really like some of the building block things that are happening. I think that, again, the offensive staff and just the staff in general continues to acquit itself. Well, the defense right now, I mean, they're so shorthanded up front. They are so shorthanded up front. And I think you just feel that. And so it's a team that's imperfect. You have a backup quarterback that's been there for six weeks that I think is playing about as well as you possibly could have hoped. Dave, I don't think we've really talked about this. I think Derek and I have done it mostly on the hangover because just as like big picture giant conversation.

18:17Derrik Klassen: They're very much a hangover team.

18:19Robert Mays: So that makes sense. As you think about just the New York Giants 10 weeks into the NFL season, based on preseason expectations and what they've been so far, what are your just impressions of where they are right now?

18:31Derrik Klassen: I think the New York Giants are victims of their division and it's not their fault because if the Philadelphia Eagles or the Dallas Cowboys were running away with this division and the Giants were in second or third place, they would be the darlings of the NFL community. And to some degree, maybe they still are like they're an entertaining team, but the giants, if they weren't leading the NFC East would be a hipsters favorite team. Like, are you seeing what our Val Reese is doing? JJ has got some nice throws every week. They'd be the dolphins. Yeah, they would be, they'd be a much more competent dolphins.

19:08Derrik Klassen: Yes. They're the dolphins with a winning record. Instead of saying, I know they suck, but are you watching the games? Like you don't have to look that hard to see what's good about the giants. The problem is they're leading the NFC East and this, I mean, you have to frame this as a missed opportunity. If you're talking about winning the NFC East, like you miss a chip shot, fuel goal. You have some silly turnovers. The, the neighbors fumble, like you mentioned, changes the complexion of this game. So it's a missed opportunity to win the division. And I get you, you can't look that opportunity in the mouth.

19:42Derrik Klassen: Like it's, it still matters. And John Harbaugh is obviously trying to set a culture for a team that, you know, obviously the last decade has been a disaster. I didn't realize I knew they hadn't. I knew they'd only been to the playoffs once since 2016. I didn't realize they hadn't won the division since 11. 15 years.

19:59Robert Mays: So winning a division.

20:01Derrik Klassen: To some degree, that stuff does matter. And I'm not trying to say that it doesn't matter to win the division. Right. But if this was a plucky also ran in a tough division, we would be like, look at the Giants. This is such a cool team. And instead they might win the NFC East and everybody's like, ah, these guys aren't very good. Like they're just going to get murdered in the playoffs. And that might be true.

20:24Robert Mays: But even this game, if they're, if they're, if they're, they're coming into this game and they're three, four and one, instead of having the record that they have. And they lose this game in this fashion. It's kind of like, ah, it's kind of frustrating, but there's a lot of stuff that we can build on here. But to your point now, it's like, oh, man, now the division might be slipping away. Now they're letting the Cowboys back into this thing. They almost become a victim of their own success in that way, where it reframes a performance like this.

20:51Derrik Klassen: They are victims of playing in the most embarrassing division in the league. And I do think the NFC South is. No, no, because the no, the NFC South was supposed to be that way. That's true. The NFC East was supposed to have some juggernauts in it. And everybody's sorry instead. And that's not the Giants fault.

21:11Robert Mays: Yeah. The Eagles are banged up. Obviously the Dallas Cowboys have no excuse. The Dallas, the Dallas Cowboys have no excuse. I feel like with the, with the NFC South, it's like, if you put an eight-year-old behind the wheel of the car and they crash a car, it's like, well, you can't blame the eight-year-old. That's your fault. The NFC East is, that's their fault. That's, we can actually, there's some culpability happening with the state of the Dallas Cowboys right now. Yeah.

21:34Derrik Klassen: But I do like I I'm so encouraged by everything that I've seen from the Giants for the most part. And I and, you know, yeah, like I'm not trying to say JJ played like upper echelon quarterback tonight, but he had I think I wrote down like five different throws where I was just like, all right, JJ. Good deal, man. And like for a fifth round pick and you are like you look it's with everything that's happened. it's kind of easy to gloss over the fact that they lost their QB of choice in the first quarter of the second game. And so for JJ McCarthy to be playing well enough that this is an intriguing team and I had fun watching this game and I've had fun watching quite a few of their games over the course of the year, it's an unmitigated success.

22:21Derrik Klassen: And if they aren't good enough to hold on to the division or if it doesn't matter come playoff time, like I don't really care about that. I'm, I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing. Uh, and my last note, I looked this up while you were talking six of JJ McCarthy's, sorry of JJ McCarthy's six best games by EPA per drop back. Three of them have come in a giants uniform. Yeah. I mean, that's not surprising. Cool. It's not surprising. That's cool. And it's, it's cool for JJ as bad as it got last year and all this shit that's been talked about him, including by us. I'm not absolving us of our role in talking about him.

22:58Derrik Klassen: it's cool to see him rebound like that. I'm excited to see where it goes from here. And I wonder where it goes from here.

23:05Robert Mays: If he continues to play like this, it becomes an interesting offseason conversation. I mean, Jackson Dart, from what we saw from Jackson Dart as a rookie and then what we saw in Jackson Dart in week one, that is a step above the J.J. McCarthy experience when you consider the totality of his career. And I would say even like on a very similar level to what we've seen from JJ McCarthy over these last few games. But I don't think there's such a Delta between those two things that you can go into next season and just say, Jackson Dart should clearly be the starting quarterback for the Giants. Like, I think that our competition is at least warranted.

23:43Derrik Klassen: I hadn't thought that far ahead, but that is an interesting thought. Like, what has Jackson Dart done to just be like, he's the guy, that's the one. Like, oh, we traded up for him in the first round. Well, JJ McCarthy was traded up for in the first round, too. Like, I don't know. Like, what's the difference at the end of the day?

24:00Dave Helman: Because they're both. I mean, if anything, JJ McCarthy was regarded as the better prospect by a by like most people. He obviously went higher in the draft. Yeah, exactly. And so I do think it's interesting for a lot of those reasons. And it's not like, you know, you bring in like a 30 year old who's playing at this level who has no runway to get better. Like JJ could get better.

24:19Derrik Klassen: assuming Joe Shane stays on as the Giants GM which like I don't have a reason to think they would make a change after what we've seen so far this year that is still like the the people involved with drafting dart and getting dart I mean I know Dayball is not there but there's a lot of uh there's a lot of interest in capital invested in Jackson dart working out so I that's probably worth mentioning but yeah like I would at least let them compete why the hell not and that's

24:45Robert Mays: probably what it might be. It might be like a, usually when we have quarterback competitions in any given off season, they're the most depressing things in the world. I have, they're either fake, right? Like the one that happened in Minnesota this year or whatever. Like, it's like, we've decided that we probably know who wants to win this thing and we'll gesture at the idea of competition or they are just deeply depressing. I cannot tell you how many soul crushing quarterback competitions. I have followed beat by beat from August 1st through the start of the regular season in my life, living where I live and following the team that I follow.

25:22Robert Mays: This is actually a quarterback competition that might have two intriguing options where the answer that you get at the end of it won't make you want to go for a long walk in the woods. Like, and that just doesn't happen very often.

25:39Dave Helman: i can't really remember the last time where it was like two maybe legitimate actual starting quarterbacks having like a competition like this where one like every now and then you get you know the 32 year old who is like can be like i don't know it just doesn't really feel like you get two young potential starting quarterbacks like this i also think too there's a chance that like if jj plays well for the rest of the season you just flip him for like a second round pick and you've basically found like free money like at this point because maybe that's the answer too maybe that's

26:07Robert Mays: what i mean maybe that's the better actual move is that you sell him at his highest point for a team that wants a dice roll a quarterback because that's actually the most valuable thing you now have having having a backup that could be a starter obviously has some value we're seeing the value of it right now but maybe to actually get the most you possibly can out of it it's to convince another team that he's a worthwhile starting quarterback option because somebody will need one. Minnesota might need one when the season's over. That's just cruel. That's cruel. Sorry. All right. Before we move on, let's take a quick break.

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29:22Derrik Klassen: That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech.

29:31Robert Mays: All right, let's talk about the team that won the game. And we haven't really had this sort of conversation about Washington at any point this year. It's been a weird season. Like, when would we have had it? You know, they beat Seattle when their starting quarterback wasn't playing. and Jaden Daniels again I think a lot of good things again from him tonight I think that the offense overall the drop back game again I said it earlier I think left something to be desired but I think some of the early down play action stuff like I think David Blouse and doing some decent things without this team's best receiver this team's best offensive lineman it's not a very talented group they came into this game 16th and passing DVOA the commanders did like that's not a bad place to be considering Jaden Daniels has missed a couple games and what they're working with on that side of the ball I just don't really know what to make of this team I really don't do you have any like as you as you sit here right now Derek and you think about the 2026 commanders and just the long-term outlook for this group this quarterback everything just how do you feel about

30:38Dave Helman: them right now I mean I think it depends on which side of the ball the defense I don't feel very very good about like I think obviously it's like in terms of the talent yeah they don't have very much talent but like it's an expensive defense and I know that some of those guys are hurt but it's an expense like older defense and I know Sonny Stiles is playing really well but I think by having enough time in this system by now and being able to accumulate all the players you wanted I think the defense should be some amount of better I know it's a new system this year with Durante Jones but like I at a certain point the head coach who is a defensive guy deserves some amount of blame for the fact that they can't really get it together um especially like in a game like this where you're playing against the backup quarterback the offense i think is a little bit harder to untangle i think in some moments i have actually been pretty impressed with what david blau has done as a play caller like me coming out in this in the second half of this game and just being like everything is going to be out of dot formation so we're going to be a pistol we're going to be an under center and we're going to jump on them and i think even the drive before that where they're in the two minute you know going into the half i thought they called a really good game or a really good drive there and they were able to just kind of jump on them and so I think the play calling has been solid to good given some of the constraints that they've had just in terms of it's not a very talented wide receiver core the run game can't really do anything because they're not talented offensive lines not talented Jaden Daniels I think has had a really weird season like his best moments still feel really good like the second half and fourth quarter he played against the Niners was really impressive I think like the middle of this game he was really impressive like I don't think the first quarter was good fourth quarter was extremely up and down, but I thought the middle of it, he played really well, but he's been up and down for this team.

32:13Dave Helman: I think they're just in a weird, they don't feel like a good team to me, but they don't, it doesn't quite feel like bottom out, at least for the offense, I guess is the way that I would frame it.

32:23Robert Mays: Jaden exists, Dave, in like this weird vortex right now, where because the other guys have come along and because not even, I mean, the guys in his draft class specifically, right, have taken up so much oxygen over the last year. I mean, literally tonight we're sitting here talking about another guy from his draft class more than him because it's new and novel and just there's more to say about it seemingly in this moment than there is to say about Jaden Daniels. And because of that, because he exists in like this weird space where he was the talk of the town as a rookie, Washington just as a franchise has been in such a weird spot over the last couple of years.

33:01Robert Mays: He's been hurt. He's in this in this place and in this moment where I don't really know how to talk about him. And I don't really know how to think about him as like the centerpiece face of the franchise for a team in transition right now. I think my instinct is based on who he is, what he's been, when he's been on the field is to say, we probably will be moving on from the coaching staff at the end of this year. If I had to be putting money on it right now, I think that's ultimately, I don't think it's unfair to say that's the most likely outcome. If they come in with a new staff next year, if they can put some more weapons around him rather than signing Steph Diggs two weeks into free agency and that being their best option, like this could still be a quarterback we should be really excited about in the right situation with the right pieces.

33:49Robert Mays: I guess I'm just a little bit less emphatic about that than I would expect to be at this point in his career. Is that unfair?

33:58Derrik Klassen: I don't think it's unfair, but I'm probably a little more willing to say it with my chest is I think if you're like my big takeaways watching this game, because I do think the commanders are in a weird place between their own injuries, not having the quarterback and the injury to Jaden this year. just it gives you existential dread where you're like oh my god two years in a row and you see that big brace on his elbow every time they cut to him and you're like ah please don't get killed jaden you're so skinny it sucks that that's part of it it like it genuinely sucks that that's part of it

34:33Robert Mays: it's like the brace what like every time he takes off i wince a little bit like i just wish that wasn't part of it but if it wasn't in the back of your mind i feel like you'd be deluding yourself

34:44Dave Helman: when they ran the speed option i was like do you want to do that are you sure about that

34:48Robert Mays: where he like cut it up between the tackle i was like man i don't know and maybe that's why my my complaining here about them not putting the like having a run past conflict on these fourth and twos maybe i'm the asshole maybe that's just not something they should be doing if that's how i'm going to look at every one of those moments but i i agree like it's it it's there it's it hangs there in a way that maybe is unfair but it's also kind of hard to ignore it does hang there and

35:14Derrik Klassen: And you can't hand wave it away. And so actually, here's what I landed on. It's not a one-to-one because I think CJ Stroud showed us more up to this point in his career. And you weren't worried about durability. But Jaden is starting to remind me a little bit about how I felt about CJ Stroud last year. Yeah, it's a good comparison. The dialogue is just like, I don't know about this guy, man. like, are they going to pay CJ Stroud? Is CJ Stroud like the future of the franchise? And I'm just like, are we watching the same thing? Cause I still see a lot of talent and a lot of promise. And like Jaden Daniels, when he's out there and, and the durability is an issue, but when he's out there, the effortless athleticism that he brings to the position and the way that he can string plays out and put the defense in conflict.

36:08Derrik Klassen: And when he decides to move. He is uncatchable. And he, by the way, he's also incredibly accurate when he's dialed in and has a cannon. I'm not going to compare him to the other guy that plays in the DMV area, but it is a skillset like that. Just very, very rare stuff. And I look at like, if I'm watching the commanders and remember, it's not just that they signed Stefan digs in the summer and Antonio Williams and Traylon Burks are like guys that have to do meaningful stuff here. They don't have a backfield and they lost Laramie Tunsell before the season started too. So if this is what you're getting from Jaden Daniels with this assortment, if I'm watching this play out, I'm saying, I don't know much, but the next regime is going to build this thing around Jaden Daniels.

36:59Derrik Klassen: Like we're going to try to give him two or three more years to really show us what he can do. is not even the right way to frame it. He's already shown us a lot. Like 2024 did happen. And so I don't know what the future holds. And I think the commanders are weird because we assume the coaches are going to change, but we don't know. And like there could be so much transition coming our way, but whatever happens in 2027, I'm making Jaden Daniels the focal point of it for at least like the next two seasons. Like if we can play this thing out to the bitter end with Bryce Young, we for damn sure can do it with Jaden Daniels.

37:38Derrik Klassen: That's how I feel.

37:38Robert Mays: I want to be very clear. I wouldn't suggest anything to the contrary. Like he, I wouldn't even like, it wouldn't even start to even become a kernel of a thought that he isn't the guy you want to build around. To me, it's just, what is that?

37:53Derrik Klassen: I'll take it a step further and say, no, he's, he's damn, he's damn good and can be damn good in a better environment. And like, I feel convicted about that.

38:03Robert Mays: I like the Stroud comparison just in terms of the space that he's currently existing in. Derek, I think that for me, and even the comparison of what they were as rookies, being the, like, they came on the scene, they were immediately these guys that were like, holy shit. I think even that part of it, because that matters. Like, that ability to show it early to that extent matters as we think about the long-term future of these guys. I think that the tier, like the space they exist in, the arc of it overall, there aren't a lot of similarities there. I think for me, and this is just maybe my own mental block, I understand what CJ Stroud is, and I understand what a ceiling for that sort of player looks like.

38:46Robert Mays: I don't have the same handle on what Jaden Daniels is. And that might be a me issue, but the path for like what he can become and what that looks like, that plan you're saying of like, we're going to build this thing around Jaden Daniels and we're going to make sure we're giving him every chance to succeed. What that version of success looks like in the longterm is harder for me to grasp because the way he succeeded as a rookie was a lot of stuff that it's just hard to build the plane out of. So a lot of scrambles, there was a lot of late down conversions, Like, I think for long term success, it would have to look a little different than it did then.

39:20Robert Mays: And I don't know exactly what that is. And again, that may be more of a me thing than a Jaden Daniels thing. Does that make sense?

39:26Dave Helman: It does. I think it's a few things. One, like that was so central to the way that he won as a rookie in college and all that stuff. But if he's going to have the injury concerns like that's probably not going to be as core part of his game or it will get to the point where like he does get banged up and you have to worry about that. I think the other thing that is different to me than Stroud, at least in my personal opinion, I know that like CJ Stroud, there were these like low light moments where we were like, oh my God, this guy actually sucks. But on a year to year basis, I thought for the most part, he continued to improve as a player and had like tangible things that I was like, his pocket presence is better now.

40:00Dave Helman: Oh, it's year three and he's a better playmaker outside of the pocket than he used to be. Oh, he's getting to more arm angles. I don't really feel that way about Jaden Daniels. And not that I don't think I don't think he's gotten worse. I just think that he's not gotten better. Obviously, the situation has not been conducive to that, but I would argue in some ways neither was Houston. And obviously, CJ Shouts still found a way to do it. I think the other thing, obviously, we're in a position now where the NFL and the league is like mobility and scrambling is one of the most valuable things you can do.

40:30Dave Helman: At the end of the day, the guys who are consistent top 10 NFL quarterbacks dominate from the pocket. And I just don't know if I've ever really seen that. Yes, especially right now.

40:40Robert Mays: This year it's just been hammered home even more than in recent seasons. Like those guys that can just kill you from the pocket are the guys. And I think that that's a really good way of framing it. And I think the idea of, I think year one to year two with Stroud was maybe a little bit less clear in like where the demonstrable steps were. Year two to year three, I think you absolutely saw that stuff. And I think because I understood what the arc was, I understood the direction that it was heading in and where it could potentially go if things improved. I think because Jaden's arc is just a little bit murkier, what it's like, you're moving through a storm and like what exists on the other side of the storm is just harder for me to picture than it would be for Stroud because I saw the path being mapped.

41:24Dave Helman: I think that that's a pretty good comparison. Like I think it's, and again, I don't even know if we're going to get a better answer by the end of this season. And I don't know what it's going to look like next season. Cause he might be on his third offensive coordinator.

41:36Derrik Klassen: That's my issue is, and it's a valid point. It's not as if Houston did a masterful job of putting CJ in a good situation, but I just think Jaden's in a dog shit situation right now. And you're not going to, it's not going to be better. It's not going to be better. And so you can call it blind faith if you want to, but, and, and maybe that, maybe that is the case where I like the choice before you is, do you buy in on the, the talent that is oozing out of this guy and what you've seen, or do you go fishing again hoping you're going to find like a better set of skills than what is already on your team and by the way that doesn't seem realistic at all and to me i don't

42:18Dave Helman: think this is like is jayden daniels gonna be a quarterback you don't want to pay situation i think it's similar to stroud where after his rookie year we were like he might be a top five quarterback sooner than later and that was obviously not the case and it you know cj stroud is maybe playing closer to that now but it was a little bit more of a windy road than we thought and i think with jayden daniels that's kind of the conversation now it's like i don't think he's bad i think he's an average to above average quarterback right now even in a poor

42:40Robert Mays: situation and being young but does he have 25 right but it's a matter of like does he still

42:47Dave Helman: do i still feel like he has that top six to seven to eight potential and i do think that i'm probably i think i was always a little bit more skeptical of that but i think that right now i'm in a little bit more of like he more realistically is like probably quarterback 11 and that's a perfectly good that's still a great court you still pay that guy every time to be clear absolutely man

43:05Derrik Klassen: if he's quarterback 14 a you pay him yes and b he's 26 years old yes i think this is the and even more important than whether or not you pay him josh harris or if adam peters makes the next coaching hire if there is another coaching hire i don't know like we're probably getting ahead of ourselves by even saying that given that they just won this game but if that is what happens that is the only thing i care about in the job interview is like what are we doing to maximize this guy like figure out the defense i don't give a shit we'll we'll make a good hire like i don't i don't care what's your plan for jayden daniels that's when you put the the playbook down on the desk in our four-hour meeting the whole freaking thing better be about number five

43:50Robert Mays: that's that's that's where it begins and ends again i want to be very clear about this i think I think it is worth being a Jaden Daniels team at whatever price that's going to be a couple of years from now. Like that's not again, that's not even like a question to me. It's worth being a Jaden Daniels team. I guess I just wonder what that means. That's that's that's the question. I don't think I have an answer to the first one is not even a question.

44:16Derrik Klassen: I get right now. What it means is having. And I'm not talking about quarterbacking ability, but what it means is like having one of the five or six most talented quarterbacks in the NFL on your team. I would push back on that.

44:32Robert Mays: I think that's, I think Derek and I, I think that that's Derek's in a similar spot where I think that there is like, there is a unique combination of physical traits to the way that he plays. I think that purely like as a passer from the pocket and what the relative limitations of that might be. I think that to me puts, that's where like, it's depends on how we define talent, like physical ability. And like, it's, but like ceiling, I mean the whole thing, ceiling as a passer, I think it's a little bit lower than a framing like that. Make it out, might make it out to be. And that's part of my, if not concern, then hesitation.

45:15Derrik Klassen: The freakish mobility is a huge chunk of what I mean. I'm not trying to sell you on natural passing talent or, you know, mastery, but that athleticism and that mobility is enticing. And it makes you really difficult to deal with, at least, you know, for whatever his prime looks like. And I think that needs to be taken into account. And it is scary. We've like to bring up the durability thing. Like, yeah, in order to maximize Jaden Daniels, you have to put him at risk of getting hurt more so than some other quarterbacks. but that just is what it is to me.

45:52Robert Mays: All right. This turned into a bigger picture conversation than I anticipated having, but we haven't had this conversation. We just haven't really talked about him and them and just where they're at. Like there just hasn't really been a good moment to do that. And I think this was a really good moment to do that. I had like a two out of 10 expectation

46:10Derrik Klassen: of what Thursday night football was going to be going in. And I like the everything beginning to end was like a 12 out of 10. I had a blast.

46:18Robert Mays: All right. that's all we've got for today. The week 10 preview is going to be available in your podcast feeds overnight, be available on YouTube tomorrow at 12 PM central. If you're watching this on YouTube, which it's the only place you can watch it right now, like subscribe, do all of that great stuff. We would sincerely appreciate it. We will be back on Sunday night, recapping all things week 10 for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

46:57Dave Helman: We'll be right back.

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