Week 9 recap: Bears survive, Jordan Love thumps Patriots & WTF NFC South

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1:54Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. Week 9 is in the books. Kick things off with a very frustrating Chicago Bears game and win. Dug in a big performance from Jordan Love, the Cincinnati Bengals offense, and a dog, which that was not on my bingo card coming into the game. Some WTF moments from the Chargers, from the Los Angeles Rams, from a Dallas Cowboys team that continues to just be bewildering. A lot of stuff to dig into with me, Derek, and Dave. Let's get to the Week 9 recap right now.

2:36Robert Mays: Well, that was excruciating. For who? For me. I had a good time.

2:44Derrik Klassen: I had a great time. It's just an excruciating football game. I just, can I just, can I just, as we start the show, let people behind the curtain of basically the last, like, hour and a half of that game. My main, other than some fantastic plays, such a physical performance by the Buccaneers, Bears pull it off at the end, but for the last hour of the game, Maze would just mutter, like, this is a nightmare. Like, once every three and a half minutes.

3:14Robert Mays: I mean, to start the game the way that they did and just look so in control and then have everything unravel. And obviously, I mean, the first big moment where it turns at Xavier and Thomas penalty down inside the five, you were would have been second and goal from the six yard line. Instead, it's second and goal from the 22. Your quarterback makes an ill-advised decision. That's one where like, all right, tries to fit a ball into a tight window. That stuff happens. You put yourself in a bad second and 20. it's again guy has a historically low interception rate this is not typically what the games look like when they're poor and then the second and third interceptions is when it just starts completely unraveling where it's i i don't know whether that's a he hit a couple fadeaway jumpers early in the game he thinks that that's something that can consistently happen like it because he

4:02Dave Helman: did hit that one to roam where he like so there's mud at his feet and he like jumps behind the guy rips one to roam and it's like maybe he just thought he was going to get away with that for

4:10Robert Mays: the rest of the day I mean the second one seemed like he was trying to throw it away but not even getting anywhere close out of bounds and then everything starts to snowball away from you and then in the second half he comes out and just misses two throws on the opening drive I mean that that was the problem with the that was the problem with the issues of the offensive performance essentially from the Xavier and Thomas penalty all the way through the end of the game is that it was not one thing it was a little bit of everything to the Bucs credit they played a decent amount of man in the first half he was six of eight for i think like 100 yards uh against man coverage in the first half they essentially stopped playing any sort of man in the second half it was all zone blitzes there were no there was nowhere to go quickly with the ball and you combine no outlets him just kill playing incredibly erratic football and a couple misses that were just completely uncharacteristic from what he has looked like essentially from the start of this year and every moment that he's played and then the offense starts to withdraw with into itself you start running screens because you don't trust your ability to drop back and then everything starts to snowball a little bit and thank god for the performance of the defense i mean it that jalen johnson interception is obviously the biggest moment but devin bush had an incredible game the defensive front came up huge multiple times so i mean you'll take wins in this league against what has been the best defense in the league i mean they are number one in defensive dvoa you see why They've been given teams fits all season, but that is an incredibly frustrating performance and a heroic performance from your defense to eventually help you pull that thing out, considering there's the complete ineptitude on offense for a majority of the final three quarters.

5:46Dave Helman: I felt like that late third down where they kind of throw that screen and put themselves at a field goal range. That felt very uncharacteristic for the offense.

5:53Robert Mays: They played scared.

5:54Dave Helman: Yeah, they were like a little bit scared.

5:57Robert Mays: They were running scared for huge portions of that game. And that just is not how this group has felt at all for a majority of this season. They have felt in command. They've had a really steady heartbeat. And the fact that it felt that erratic and that fearful for a good chunk of this game just was completely uncharacteristic and unlike what that offense has been like from essentially the moment that he's been on the field.

6:24Dave Helman: And I think in that moment, too, there's some amount of like Caleb is clearly playing the worst game that he's played in like 14 games, like basically since the second half of last season, that was one of the worst games that he's played.

6:33Robert Mays: I mean, this might have been the worst game he played if you even if you include last season.

6:37Dave Helman: I mean, I think it was and like just like uncharacteristic for him. So there's that element. They also just weren't running the ball well. And I think in some of those third and fours, like that could be a rundown for them. And they were like, that might be a TFL if we do that. And obviously it ends up being a TFL anyway, because you throw the screen. But like they just didn't feel like they had anything, which is. pretty uncharacteristic for an offense though when they're humming they kind of feel like they can

6:58Robert Mays: call anything whenever they want they've had a lot of answers no matter what we were joking about it at one point in the first half it was third and 10 and he rips one to roam for a conversion and it's like this offense for the most part this season it hasn't really mattered the situation it's like oh it's third and 10 fine it's second and 12 fine and they've really fell in command so often and it felt like the exact opposite of that for a vast majority of this game essentially again after that Xavier and Thomas penalty and the interception that resulted from it which it was

7:26Derrik Klassen: just that kind of night where it felt like every three snaps something went wrong and I just wonder how much that got to all of them really I mean Caleb the the receivers uh I was thinking we it's a lost moment now but Ben Johnson uh okaying that fake punt that got waved off by yeah the false start like just the whole the whole operation seemed rattled from the top down after the first couple of possessions i mean they got lucky i mean again the defense played extremely well

7:59Robert Mays: devin bush was all over the place and the front had its moments but multiple drops and huge moments for tez johnson in this game a bucks i mean baker mayfield was banged up you needed several breaks to get this thing over the finish line it's the nfl you're playing the best defense in the league statistically, you'll take a win in that situation, but it's hard to feel good about what you saw tonight from the Bears overall, specifically from the offense.

8:25Derrik Klassen: Counterpoint, you turn the ball over five times and win, there's something worth feeling good about there. That's not supposed to happen. You'll take the result all day. It's the second game that's happened this season, and the other one was the Bills beating the Chargers in that goofy noon game in, like, week three or four. And so, not calling it good at all, but to... To suck that much and win is, at some point, it becomes an accomplishment. Absolutely. To, like, have that terrible of a game and still get the result.

8:53Dave Helman: There's some amount of resilience. Because, like, the offense did, at the end, have to go down and make a couple of calls and make a couple of throws. And, obviously, Colson Loveland's wide open at the end.

9:01Derrik Klassen: No offense. I hate that it ended that way where the box just had a coverage bust that kind of decided the game.

9:07Robert Mays: I will say, I mean, the throw to Kalief Raymond on third down or something, that's a big plus. To be able to kind of step up and make that play in a huge moment. And obviously that was not happening for a vast majority of the game. And so to convert that third down and then you get fortunate with the coverage bust. But, I mean, this is a – they've had two – obviously the numbers against the Blitz, if you look at them holistically over the course of the season, have been good, right? And that's why I think people were pushing back against the idea that this defense would be able to give the Bears offense problems.

9:37Robert Mays: But if you look at the way that – yeah, I know it was in the rain, but if you look at the way they played against the Vikings and the way they played in this game. Two games where these really pressure-heavy teams were able to send the offense into a pretty erratic version of itself, and that's something that just needs to get corrected. And that's something that your teams are going to continue to do that to you if they don't think you can handle it and if they think it's going to send you into playing a version of your offense that loosens your grip on the game. You are not in command, and that has happened twice this season, and it's against the two teams that do this more than pretty much any team in the league.

10:15Derrik Klassen: We said this, Derek and I were on with our friends on The Athletic Live before the game ended, and we'll see what happens. If this is a trend for the Bears, we can revisit it. They're going into their bye now, right? Yes. So they get a week off. We'll see what that looks like. Right now, I'm way more, my lasting impression from this is way more like, hell yeah, Bucs. You are who I thought you were. I mean, I know they lost, but they punched these guys in the mouth. And all these young Bucs players that we've been so excited about really acquitted themselves well. I love Zion McCollum. He's such a fun player.

10:52Derrik Klassen: Like, the picks he had tonight, the tackle he had on, like, the third down screen, like, late in the fourth quarter, phenomenal player. Tykee Smith's interception was awesome. I just, I love watching the Bucs play defense, and it was cool that they delivered in this moment for the most part.

11:10Dave Helman: Jacob Parrish, even on the Luther Burden fumble, he doesn't make the play, but he like squeezes the block that he has on him so that it's like a tight lane, Burden can't go anywhere, and Reuben Bain obviously comes over and makes the play. And he has the tip on the Anzalone interception.

11:22Robert Mays: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Everybody got into the mix here. And the fact that the offense had so few answers to what they were doing to them, essentially from the middle of the second quarter on, is frustrating. but this defense has been able to do that to pretty much everybody. And so they deserve a ton of credit. And the Bucs are three and six, but every team in the NFC South has three wins. We'll talk about that division a little bit later in the show. I mean, they're very much alive in that division considering the state of things. And I mean, right now, I don't even think it's a conversation.

11:51Robert Mays: The Bucs defense is, to me, by far the best single unit in the NFC South as things currently stand. I don't even think it's close.

11:58Dave Helman: I mean, yeah, they might be the best defense in the NFL. Like it's them or the Seahawks or the Vikings. And it's like, yeah. Yeah, I don't even think that's a debate right now.

12:07Robert Mays: I think the frustration, though, is if you're a Bucs fan is, is the offense good enough to make that worth it? And that would be my concern right now. I don't know. Chris Collinsworth, the whole game is like, they need a playmaker on offense. They need somebody they can get the ball to. Did they not draft the receiver in the first round of last year's draft? Did that not happen? Like, I understand that Tez Johnson and Ted Hurst and this version of Chris Godwin maybe aren't the answers that you want. But I just it's hard for me to understand how we've arrived in this sort of place with the Bucks passing game, even if the ancillary pass catchers are probably not as good as you want them to be.

12:39Dave Helman: I mean, like a book has been banged up, which like that's a problem because he's been banged up for like pretty much the entire time since his first five games. Just constant, just constantly banged up. And then Baker Mayfield's got the thumb thing. And like, I guess the cope is that you just hope that Baker Mayfield by the time they can survive until December, that maybe he feels a little bit more comfortable. because I think you saw in this game, like, he was better today throwing than he had been for the last two weeks. Obviously, he didn't really have to for the last two weeks. But still, like, a lot of misfires.

13:05Dave Helman: Like, on some of those Tez Johnson drops, Tez should catch those, but he's making them harder than they need to be. And I think that, like, that's just kind of where he's at ball placement-wise right now. They're on their bye week after this as well, too.

13:17Derrik Klassen: So that's a good time. Opportunity for Baker to get healthier. Because, yeah, I mean, the Bucs offense that we've seen, even as fun as the running game is and as good as the offensive line has been, feels like it puts a pretty hard cap on them beyond winning a bad division. But that absolutely is on the table. I just don't know what that's worth.

13:35Robert Mays: I don't want to be all Eeyore with this when your team wins a game, when they turn the ball over five times. It's like Dave said, it's worth pointing out that, like, there's still elements of that that are worth being excited about and being content with. And I think the defense being able to win this team a game, no matter what sort of limitations the other team's offense has, that's something where if you're a Bears fan, you can find a little bit of solace in that, I think, because I don't think the offense will look like this most weeks. I think the offense will look closer to what we've seen from it the vast majority of the season while K.

14:09Robert Mays: Williams has been playing. And so the fact that the defense has this sort of gear to it, even against a team that really doesn't threaten you in every way that an offense can, that feels good. It feels good that your defense can win you a football game considering what we thought the Bears might be coming into the season, what we thought the Bears might be over the first five or six weeks of the year. Like, that is good news if you're trying to fancy yourself a contender.

14:36Derrik Klassen: I've been grappling with that this week with the Bears emerging into this contender status where the defense is just so above and beyond what I expected it to be. And, like, I didn't know they were going to trade for Jeffrey Simmons. But even before the trade, they were better than I gave them credit for. I thought they had the potential to be Cowboys bad. Yeah. And they're very far away from that. And I mean, you score 20 points on offense and turn the ball over five times. You're supposed to get your doors blown off in the NFL. And so to win, like I said, at a certain point, it becomes an accomplishment.

15:08Derrik Klassen: I do. I'm circling in red ink what the Vikings and now the Bucs have been able to do to them, because I think I think you're right. Most teams aren't going to be able to do this to them. But there's a little bit of a trend now where teams with the right personnel can look at this and say, like, all right, what can we take advantage of? What are we seeing here? I think it's just a, I mean, we said this,

15:29Robert Mays: I said this when we were having the conversation about Caleb Williams over the last week or so, the fact that it's not going to be a line straight up forever. His play style, it's funny because the turnovers, that doesn't happen, right? He came into this game with the lowest interception rate in NFL history among players with like 1 ,000 dropbacks. For the most part, interceptions are not the issue. Turnovers are not the issue. To me, it will be if you can force him into a place where he's trying to play off schedule consistently. And we've seen this with quarterbacks who have this type of game to them.

16:03Robert Mays: Josh Allen does this. Josh Allen did this a lot early in his career where you could give him the zoomies if you approached him a certain way defensively. And this was one of those games. The turnovers were not in line with what a bad Caleb Williams game has looked like over the last couple of years. But the ability to have the offense playing out of rhythm and a more frenetic version of itself than you want to see, that is when this team has looked the worst over the last two years. And they were forced back into that mode today. And that is a mode that whether it's by finding the running game in a way they haven't been able to in the last five or six weeks or just having a better pressure plan and more quick answers when teams are going to approach you that way, they need to figure out what that ultimately looks like so they can stay away from this version of the offense moving forward.

16:52Dave Helman: And the last thing I'll say there, like the Kolkomet injury, I think that's where you feel it. Because I think against some of these heavy pressure, want to play seven up, eight man up front teams, being able to get heavier and move a lot of those tight ends around, like we just saw the Lions have really good success with that against the Vikings. I do think that that is like a really good answer for that. And I know that they still have two good tight ends. Having three of them, I think was like a real weapon for them.

17:13Robert Mays: And to me, the interior of the offensive line is where you had, it was very leaky in this game. And I think that everybody had their issues. Like there were some miscommunications. You know, Joe Tooney was laid on a pressure. Tooney got beat by Vitavia at one point. Garrett Bradbury's been up and down in pass protection the entire season. And so that they had been able to overcome some of the interior leakiness for the most part because they had, again, situationally, they were able to bounce back from a lot of disadvantageous down and distances over the last few weeks that they just weren't able to overcome today.

17:45Robert Mays: And so I think some of the issues that we had seen with the offense where the run game hadn't been efficient, where there had been some issues with interior pass protection, we hadn't talked much about them because it wasn't worth focusing on considering the overall quality that we had seen from that group. But those had been issues and they really came to rear their ugly head today. And so you're not going to play against the Bucs defense every single week. There is a reason. This team played against the number one defense by DVOA two weeks in a row. And they knocked the Seahawks off that perch with the way that they played last week.

18:14Robert Mays: But the Bucs were there now. And I think we saw why that is the case. They have been able to to really dictate how the game has gone against a majority of the offenses they've played against. The question was going to be whether they could do it to an offense that had looked like the Bears had over the last month, and the answer was emphatically yes from, like, the second quarter on.

18:32Dave Helman: Yeah, pretty much outside of their script, they did it.

18:35Derrik Klassen: Anything else about this one? I don't think so. Just love all my young Bucks DBs. Happy for them. They probably don't care. They lost, but I'm happy for them.

18:45Robert Mays: We'll get to the NFC South a little bit later. What a f***ing mess. that entire thing is just an absolute mess i i don't really well we can save that conversation i really don't know what to make of it but it's hard to leave that game and just like what the bucks defenses looked like for the majority of the last month or so and think that's not the favorite yeah in the nfc south right i mean like it's just sitting three games below 500 sitting three games below 500 with an offense that really can't throw the ball consistently and it's like but I think that's kind of where we are. All right, let's get to some of the other performances that jumped out in week nine.

19:24Robert Mays: It is time for You Have My Attention. Gentlemen, now you have my attention. The Green Bay Packers stomp the New England Patriots 45 to 27 in Foxborough. An incredible day from Jordan Love and the Packers passing game. 23 to 29, 372, 12.8 yards per attempt, a chill 0.61 EPA per drop back from Jordan Love. Jordan Love and the Packers offense and the Packers passing game is just a Packers period. You guys have our attention.

19:58Derrik Klassen: I'm going to say, give some love to the defense as well. I mean, three picks of Drake May. We thought that was something that they could take advantage of. And boy, did they. What a performance.

20:07Dave Helman: Yeah, this like, I want to spend a lot of time talking about Jordan Love, but it really was like a complete team performance, which like, obviously the Packers defense has been really good this year, but the Patriots offense has been turning up. And so the fact that the defense played the way that they did and got him, I think was really impressive. I do want to start with, you mentioned 0.61 EPA per dropback. The only two other games this season with at least 0.6 EPA per dropback on 30 plus dropbacks. So you're chucking it. There are some of those games where a guy throws 18 times and does that, but it's like, sure, you clearly are sprinting away with the game.

20:37Derrik Klassen: The games where guys are throwing a lot.

20:40Dave Helman: Yeah. It was Drake May versus the Raiders, who the Raiders have shown us that they're like arguably the worst defense in the NFL and Jackson Dart week one against the Cowboys. This was against the Patriots defense that like for the most part this year has been pretty damn good. And they picked on one of the best corners in the league in Christian Gonzalez. That's the worst game that I've ever seen him play. And honestly, there are some moments where like they're beating him. They threw a lot of outbreakers against him that I thought like they clearly saw something. Miami was able to actually do this against him last week.

21:06Dave Helman: But there were at least like three, four of these plays where he's in decent position and it's just a pinpoint throwing Christian Watson or Matthew Gould to make a play. And it's just like, sometimes you just tip your cap to an offense that can do shit like this.

21:19Derrik Klassen: Nine catches on 10 targets for Christian Gonzalez for 177 yards. The one in completion was a pass breakup, which I guess is nice. But, and like, I'm not even talking shit about Gonzo. Like, to do that against a really, really quality cornerback is incredible.

21:35Robert Mays: The thing that really jumps out to me, and because the Packers offense for the most part, We had talked about this coming into the game. They had been this shotgun offense. They had the fourth lowest under center rate in the NFL coming into this game. And that was not what we've really come to expect from the Packers over the last couple years. They've really developed into this spread out, let the quarterback go to work sort of unit, which makes sense if you can't run the ball. They clearly saw something on tape throughout this week, game planning for the Patriots, where if we're under center, we think that we're going to get either specific sort of coverages or they're going to play things a certain way.

22:12Robert Mays: The Packers were under center on 38 % of Love's attempts in this game. On those plays, he was 9 of 11 for 198 yards. And the number that jumps out to me, it wasn't the 9 of 11 for 198 yards. On under center dropbacks per next gen, Jordan Love averaged 19.8 air yards per attempt. on his 11 throws. 19.8. So clearly, they saw something where if we're going to get under center, we feel like we are able to jump on them down the field consistently. And some of this was straight under center. Some of this was under center play action. For whatever reason, they felt like that was something they could pick at.

22:53Robert Mays: And they sure did. I mean, 17 attempts for Jordan Love from the gun, 174 yards, 11 under center for 198 yards. So more than half... of his total yardage came on those under center plays despite only 11 of those drop backs happening i'll be interested to watch it back and see like how i feel about what that was i wonder with a

23:14Dave Helman: team like the patriots if a lot of it is like pressure oriented maybe because with some of these teams like you know this was kind of the thing with bulls for a while too is that you would want to try to be under center against him and run the ball obviously they didn't run the ball a ton in this game but like you want to be under center because like you're just going to get some of the more vanilla stuff and i think more teams have been more willing to bring a lot of the pressure stuff this year from under center but the packers must have felt comfortable that maybe that just wasn't going to be as big an issue with them the way that they could scheme some stuff

23:40Robert Mays: up yeah i mean that was they did a lot of really interesting stuff in this game i thought that the way they were using savihan williams as eye candy throughout this game was really good i mean there were a couple different plays where i mean on the drive where they go up 24 7 they're using williams's eye candy in like an orbit motion he holds down the flat and so that opens matthew golden up on a big crosser on the watson completion right after that they're they have like they're in a twins look with watson and uh golden on the same side they both run verticals on that and like it i have no idea what the coverage supposed to be gonzalez just like randomly hanging out in the flat like they just were on them the entire game like for whatever reason they just were able to pick on them be via design via formation like it they had patriots defense had absolutely no answers throughout this entire thing.

24:28Robert Mays: And it helps when the quarterback is just, he's been unconscious for stretches of this season where some of the throws that he's making, some of the throws he's getting off, like what he's been able to do purely as a thrower, especially down the field, has been incredible. And this was like his masterpiece. Like this is the best game he has played all season, maybe the best he's ever looked in a single NFL game in his entire career. I mean, if you think back, just the aesthetics plus the production plus the opponent, I can't remember a better game that Jordan Love has had. The numbers maybe in that Dallas playoff game would be in the conversation.

25:01Robert Mays: The Dallas playoff. But in terms of like the pure shot making. That's like a LeFleur masterclass game. The pure shot making in this game is very much in line with, he's had really good stretches that have looked like this. To do it for an entire game like this against a defense that has been in the back half of the top 10 for a majority of the year is remarkable.

25:21Derrik Klassen: And some, you know, clot killing stuff makes the running game look like, like in the box score it looks better than it was like when the game was in doubt they were just throwing the ball at will and the running game was maybe it was better obviously it's better than it's been in some of their poor performances this year but this was all Jordan love and that's the thing that I can't get over is he is I think for the season he's eighth in the league in EPA per drop back with the 32nd running game by like EPA per carry they were at a 30.6 success rate coming

25:54Robert Mays: into this game, which is non-functional. I mean, it's just, there's nothing you can do with a run game like that, and it hasn't really affected the veracity of the passing game whatsoever. There have been 12 games this season where a quarterback has completed six passes of

26:11Derrik Klassen: 20-plus yards. Four of them are Jordan Love. Nobody else has more than one.

26:16Robert Mays: And there's only been two games of six completions of at least 20-plus air yards. He has both of them. They're both Jordan. Yeah. One of them is against the Bears. One of them is against this team.

26:24Dave Helman: I think this is why it's so compelling. He is playing a totally different sport from everybody. Just the way that they are trying to make the offense work. And I do want to say, like, obviously, I think Jordan Love is kind of not uniquely capable of this, but because of his flexibility, the way that he can just throw from any platform, he does have a very, like, I don't believe bad things can happen to me mentality for a quarterback, which if you're going to play this way, you kind of need. But what Matthew Golden has become and Christian Watson really elevating his game to becoming like a real deal number one receiver, like that is a big, big portion of this.

26:57Dave Helman: A hundred percent.

26:58Robert Mays: And the Watson part of it, you saw the explosiveness come last year in a variety of ways, right? Like early in his career, he was mostly just a vertical target. Like that's what Christian Watson was. Last year, you saw what he was able to do as an explosive player at every level of the field, all the crossers that he was catching. Like he was just affecting the game in more ways. The thing that's jumped out to me about him this year is what he is doing at the catch point. Like adding that to his game on top of him just being a stick of dynamite, that has made him an entirely different beast in terms of defenses having to account for him.

27:36Robert Mays: And then Golden is just the separation and the explosiveness as a route runner is unbelievable. And so when you combine those two types of players, the fact that they've built the entire plane out of this thing, That, I think, is why the offense feels a little bit different than it's ever felt before. I mean, last year, the most important pass catcher on the team in a lot of ways was Romeo Doves. In terms of, like, situationally, when they were going to him, the moments where they needed him. And that is, like, possession ball. You know, that is him catching, like, an 11-yard outbreaker on third and seven.

28:12Robert Mays: This is not that. This is, like, all threes all the time. There is no half-court offense happening for—it's all like fast breaks and threes. Like, that's the entire offense right now, and it is incredibly fun to watch.

28:24Derrik Klassen: It's not a one-to-one comparison in terms of style of play. They're not exactly alike, but they look a lot like another team we're going to talk about today. Well, that's the vision, right? I mean, that's the vision. A team that played their game in Madrid, I don't want to be confusing. They looked like Tee and Jamar.

28:41Robert Mays: But even the Bengals, and there are moments from the Bengals game today, where it is possession ball, where T's just posting a guy up at the sticks. It's third and seven, and T will just make a play. There's some of that. I mean, there's some of that. They hit multiple intermediate outbreakers in this game, but it's not a lot of posting a guy up for a seven-yard completion.

29:01Derrik Klassen: You're right about that, but you know the Bengals have that gear. Oh, absolutely.

29:06Dave Helman: It doesn't have to be possession ball. To me, it's like the Bengals are trying to possess the ball to take that one shot on a drive, whereas the Packers are like every play is the shot and we're going to hit three of them.

29:18Robert Mays: It's the ratio. Where with the Packers, it's like 70 % shots, 30 % let's get completions. With the Bengals, it's 70 % let's get completions, 30 % shots.

29:29Derrik Klassen: Anything that's not an explosive is a wasted effort for the Green Bay Packers. It's very fun.

29:33Robert Mays: And so you combine what the offense feels where you have a quarterback that's playing as well as really anybody in the league. I would say down to down. And especially when you consider what the burden is for him within the offense, he is playing as well as anybody in the league right now. We'll do mid season awards that this week. I mean, I think you have to have a very serious conversation about where he ranks in any sort of MVP discussion.

29:58Derrik Klassen: I was about, I was going to ask you, Derek, your, your two guys are both top five and MVP odds right now, according to whichever book you want to look at Trevor and Trevor and Jordan again not trying to be confusing how do you feel about that i still personally probably i don't

30:14Dave Helman: want to spoil somebody i'll just leave it to talking about these two for now i would probably put jordan love just a hair over trevor because like i think trevor is obviously playing out of his mind there is just a the the style that jordan love is trying to play the jags ecosystem is just

30:30Robert Mays: so unquestionably healthier they can win games by 30 where he throws a rip in passes yeah exactly

30:35Dave Helman: not happening for this team Jordan Love they can have games where they score 35 and it looks like relatively easy because of how good they are but he still has to throw 35 times a game for it to work and so for that reason I would do it and like if you look at the overall season EPA numbers like his stuff is good but it's not like MVP but if you remove the first three weeks of the season where like they're fumbling around with guards who are like not serious they're playing rain games against some of these teams when you remove kind of that little stumble and we assume that for the rest of the season he'll play relatively around this level it's like he's playing like an mvp right now

31:07Robert Mays: no i don't think it's a question yeah to me it's about what is your preference what's your flavor right do you want to go with the offense that looks the best right now and the guy that's putting up the gaudiest numbers that would be joe burrow do you want to go with a hyper efficient quarterback of arguably the best team in the nfl in a lot of ways like that would be the jags or the or Or Brock Kirby.

31:29Dave Helman: Right? Even Josh Allen, I think, still has an argument. He's the mainstay kind of guy.

31:34Robert Mays: There are a bunch of different ways that you could go with this. But in terms of what a guy is doing, when you think about what he is being asked to do within the ecosystem and environment of his offense and how hard it has been and how easy he has made that look and how much of the entire thing he has lifted and carried, Jordan Love is absolutely in the conversation for that right now. And so you look at what the offense has been, and then you combine that with a defense that has been top five for the entire season. And today you saw, I think, what really makes them special. Like what those DBs are able to do collectively.

32:11Robert Mays: And it was a little bit of everything in this game. Like you have the Cissé tipped interception where that's just great coverage by a rookie corner who's been playing excellent ball and Evan Williams being in the right spot at the right time.

32:23Derrik Klassen: They tried Cissé two or three times early on in this game, and it was nothing doing. And that pick being the big play where he really bit him in the ass for trying him.

32:32Robert Mays: So you get one of those. The second McKinney interception was my favorite one because that play takes balls. If you watch how that play is unfolding, I want to say it was Kyle Williams was running the vertical to that side, and they were in quarters. And Xavier McKinney just lets it go. and I when we were re-watching it I was wondering if the vertical hadn't run past him by the time that May lets that throw go and so it's not actually a risky play it is he just lets that thing go because of the way that that is unfolding he thinks that crosser to Raritan is where May is going with the ball it absolutely is and he steals one well I thought this was crazy too because this

33:12Dave Helman: is this to me speaks to just the on-the-fly shit I think this defense is doing and how they're just I think clearly the coaching is just letting them take aggressive choices and obviously the DBs are capable of this I think it was two plays before that it was seven minutes to go in the second quarter New England gets under center they run a play action pass where it's against cover two and they run a post into the cover two safety gets them to clear out and they run a deep over into that spot and so I the Packers literally two plays later were like they're trying the same shit again and McKinney was like not me not today and he just drove on it and it's like Like, when you're playing that confidence in your defense, which usually that's the kind of thing we ascribe to, like, it's year two, year three, year four in a defense.

33:50Dave Helman: These guys have played nine games in this defense. It's kind of great. Obviously, they're talented players, but to just have that amount of freedom and aggressiveness and confidence that, like, you're going to get yours, I think is really impressive.

34:01Derrik Klassen: Worth saying, too, because we thought he might play on the preview show. Still no Micah Parsons. Yeah.

34:08Robert Mays: I mean, right now, I think, again, we're doing midseason awards in the middle of this week. Brian Flores I think almost has to be the assistant coach of the year based on what the Vikings defenses looked like Jonathan Gannon's maybe second like in the entire NFL when you think about what he has done and as an assistant and what that unit has looked like from top to bottom

34:26Dave Helman: think about what we probably said about him a month ago or two months ago I guess at this point but just like where we were like we don't even know what this is going to be and they've been a great defense without a guy who can be a defensive player of the year when he's out there

34:38Derrik Klassen: the the packers are mathematically last in the nfc north we're going to talk about the nfc south the nfc north is a nuclear arms race this is ridiculous

34:48Robert Mays: all right so we have an mvp candidate like shortlist mvp candidate a quarterback we have right now i would say the second best receiving duo in the nfl can i mean the bangles guys are an entirely different plane we'll get to that i don't think it's short changing the packers to They're second behind the Bengals right now. And you have a defense that has been top five, just picked Drake Mayhoff, what, three times in this game? And has been that good really week in and week out for a very long time. To me, not even a conversation about whether the Packers deserve the last spot at the table right now.

35:23Robert Mays: They absolutely do.

35:24Derrik Klassen: We build the game as a table play-in, and the Packers wipe the pats off the field. If they want a close one, they might have got in.

35:31Dave Helman: Yeah. And they just smoked it.

35:32Derrik Klassen: Heading into the day, I was like, well, if the final score is 20-17, what are we going to do? And it was over like halfway through the first quarter. All right.

35:41Robert Mays: So there we go. The Packers are there.

35:45Dave Helman: Really quick, can we take inventory? How many of these teams were there? Let's see.

35:50Derrik Klassen: The first week of the season. Okay. All right. Teams that were not here at the start. Packers, Bears, Bengals. Jags. Niners. Niners. Oh, the Niners weren't either. The Niners have been so good for so long that I forgot we didn't have them on the initial table. We did that like week two. Wow, so half the table has changed. Yeah.

36:09Robert Mays: I mean, I think right now this is right. I mean, the other team that I think is in the conversation is the Steelers. And we'll see what happens with the Steelers and the Bengals next week. Because I think there are teams right now, like, the Chiefs beat the Jets today. The Chiefs are on watch. The Chiefs are on notice based on how the last couple weeks have gone. I'm happy for you for beating this Jets team, but for the most part, I think they've looked underwhelming recently. And so we'll see what happens with the Steelers next week. But right now, I think this is, I feel pretty good about the 10 teams we have sitting right here.

36:40Robert Mays: I love that the only NFC North team that's not at the table is... Is the team leading the division.

36:44Derrik Klassen: The team leading the division, one of the only one-loss teams in the league.

36:48Robert Mays: I mean, we're at a spot right now where I think the numbers are going to back this up. I don't have them in front of me, but this is probably the best division we've had through nine weeks of the season. And if not in all of NFL history, then in modern NFL history.

37:02Dave Helman: I'd be shocked if it wasn't, yeah.

37:04Robert Mays: Who has the worst record in the division? The Packers. They're 6-3. One of the best teams in the NFL.

37:10Derrik Klassen: Technically, they're behind Detroit. I guess Detroit has the tiebreaker over there as well. Yeah, because they just beat them last week. And a better winning percentage. But fewer games played.

37:19Robert Mays: Yeah, the idea that the team winning the division that has one loss is not one of the ten contenders. And they absolutely, like, there's a world where they get out of here. There's a world where all four teams in the NFC. The Vikings had a statement game on Monday night.

37:32Derrik Klassen: our state of game opportunity. That's right.

37:34Robert Mays: Yeah, let's say that out. Yeah, the Vikings beat the Bills, and we'll be having a conversation. But it's pretty ridiculous what this thing looks like right now. Yeah. All right, let's get to our next one here. Speaking of those Cincinnati Bengals, the Bengals have a monster day on offense against the Falcons in Madrid, 34-17. Joe Burrow goes 24-29 for 271.43 EPA per drop back from Joe. Jamar Chase reminds everyone that despite the season that Tee Higgins is having. Jamar Chase is still pretty good at football. Cincinnati Bengals with another banger from their offense. You guys still have our attention.

38:11Dave Helman: How quickly into today's game did you realize you might be watching like a special football game?

38:16Robert Mays: The goal to chase, I would say. I'll tell you.

38:19Derrik Klassen: Oh, for the touchdown? Yeah. Oh, that was quick. I waited a little bit longer, but the sequence, I think on the next drive after that, where, like, when Jamar came back to the floater that Joe threw. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, got underneath it. Dug it out. And they challenged it, and it was upheld. That was on a third down. And then the kangaroo hop, toe tap third down to keep that drive going, that happened in, like, quick succession. I tweeted it. I was like, Jamar Chase might be playing one of the best, like, receiver games ever. and ironically he stopped producing as much like quickly after that but his first half line i mean look at this catch and you could argue it wasn't his best catch of the day he had a one-hander when the divine diablo was like hitting him so that that's actually i'm looking back through my notes

39:10Robert Mays: that was when i thought was like oh my god the the stretch for me when i was just like these two guys are so ridiculous there was the the third and five on with like a minute and 30 seconds left in the in the first quarter, I want to say, where T posts up C.J. Henderson from the number two spot. So they send one of the tight ends in a quick motion. It puts T at number two, which I want to talk about, just like how they're using these guys. Puts T at number two. He posts up C.J. Henderson at the sticks. Joe just puts it on him, and he just snatches the ball out of midair with the cornerback hanging on his back.

39:44Robert Mays: And I'm pretty sure on the next play is where Chase catches that one-hander on the crossing route, where it's just like, what is this? like what is this that these two guys are able to consistently do this shit over and over and over

39:57Dave Helman: again and this was like the purest distillation of what we talked about like they're both very good at a lot of things chase to me is like when he has the ball unbelievable player and he made like two or three just like holy shit run after the catch plays in this game and t higgins is the best i think just like go up and get the ball and there was a point in this game i think maybe it was at halftime coming out of half whatever where they post the stats and jamar chase has like eight catches for 100 and whatever yards and t has like three catches for 16 yards but i was like those were the most insanely well-earned 16 yards of all because he had that catch you just had and then he had the four-yard goal line touchdown where he does the same thing again the pylon the

40:33Derrik Klassen: pylon route where he snaps off aj terrell is just like poor aj terrell this aj is a good player he literally said this is just not fair like aj that's what he said and that and that is what it

40:45Robert Mays: feels like right now it is not fair and we've again we've talked about the bangles offense a lot and it's because they continue demanding that we talk about them with the way that they're playing and the question was always going to be okay within this box that they want to play in how is it going to feel more dangerous and dynamic than it has felt in years past where where this team is taking it to a different place than it's been obviously the 24 season the offense is incredible but you know burrow's bank uh the defense isn't very good like in this team ultimately falls short that offense was really really good but i still think what we're watching right now is the best version of t higgins we've ever seen and what really sticks out to me is how they're being moved all over the place that that to me is what really jumps out and they've been doing this in some form for a long time like jamar chase has been playing a decent amount of snaps in the slot for legitimately years.

41:39Robert Mays: But I think right now they are weaponizing them as well as they ever have before. Right before that T Higgins piling route happens, they have Jamar at number three in this. I think it was three or two. He's in the slot and they have him run essentially like a little option route from the slot. He sits down in space. They get it to him. It's a first down and then they score the touchdown. And so them being able to just consistently because and Lewis Riddick said this during the game you can't take away both of them yeah right if you you can tilt resources to one of them you can't take away both of them and so the fact that throughout all of these games they're able to just find a dozen matchups by formation motion design that get one of these guys opportunities over the course of the day there's nothing you can really do about it well and i thought the chase

42:30Dave Helman: the chase play you just mentioned there was like a two play sequence over the course of a couple drives that I thought was really impressive they get more cover two than a lot of other teams because like yeah you want to put a lid on these guys and I think a lot of teams play a lot of just cover two in the red zone generally and so if like if you're going to be the Bengals you know you're going to get that we got to find ways to beat it and so with 1420 left in the second quarter they have chase at number two and they use the number three to like clear out the middle hook player vertically and they run chase into a slant right in there they get like just inside the five then on the play you're talking about he's at number three and they kind of look like he's going to run vertical and push the hook player and then he just snaps it right down yep and it's just like that's good like you know what you're going to get because of the way you play and you just have these little answers for it and it's just like that part of it to me has been really impressive like we we thought the nuance and the additions were going to be some of the under center stuff and they did some of that in this game but it really is just a lot of how they're

43:23Robert Mays: able to change their gun drop back in and it really helps that the quarterback is playing as well as he's ever played yes i mean just as well as he's ever played just some of the areas the field that he's consistently accessing, just like the throws they're willing to make, how explosive the passing offense has been. I mean, anytime they're given a one-on-one opportunity on the outside, he is consistently taking it. And these receivers create a lot of margin for error, but it doesn't diminish the way that he's playing. I mean, this is a guy who has been one of the best players in the NFL for a long time now, and I think that right now, the stretch that we have seen from him over the last few weeks is probably, in my opinion, the best I've ever seen him play.

44:05Since week five, Joe has 18 total touchdowns.

44:13Derrik Klassen: I mean, they look ridiculous, man. They look absolutely ridiculous. They're scoring 3.3 points per drive since week five. They're scoring a touchdown on 44 % of their possessions since week five. And by the way, their weeks one through four numbers are not bad. Like, they were fine. But they're just, they're on a completely different level right now. 44 % of their possessions ending in points is 11 percentage points better than anyone else in that week five to nine stretch. So the second quarter of the season, they're scoring points 10 % more often than any other team in the league.

44:48Robert Mays: I think that the way Higgins is playing, again, why does the offense feel different? The way that Higgins is playing, we've talked a lot about it. He's leveled up. He's just doing more things than he's ever done before. He looks insane. the pass protection top to bottom is just better than it's ever been in the Joe Burrow era in large part because the right tackle is maybe the best right tackle in football right now and allows you to tilt everything else the other way and why the team feels different and this was the thing this was the bet 97 wrecked the game on the other side wrecked the game on the other side so

45:22Derrik Klassen: I thought you were going to ask me a different question because obviously it became apparent quickly that chase was having a special day but when i noted it down so the the falcons drove again the second time they got the ball and they got down near the red zone brian cook made two nice tackles to set up third down and then dexter lawrence just nuked atlanta's offensive line on third down to force a throwaway and they kicked a field goal and when the falcons went up 10-7 And I remember thinking, oh, they might be a trouble. Like, because that like it's we oversimplify this shit sometimes in the offseason where it's like, well, if they can just force a couple stops per game, that might be all you need.

46:02Derrik Klassen: And so many times it's just not true. Right. It might be true for this group. And like if if Dexter Lawrence has two pressures that lead to third down stops in a game, then that might be enough to let these guys do the rest.

46:16Dave Helman: And part of the calculus, too, is like with the Cowboys versus the Bengals, right? Obviously, the Cowboys defense is terrible, but and they can't get those stops. But part of it, too, is like the Cowboys offense can't score at will. They can score a lot like they're a good offense, but they cannot score whenever they want to. The Bengals, man, the way they're playing right now, they can literally score whenever they want to. And they can actually jump out to those leads that let's like, are the Bengals actually the 17th best defense in the NFL? Like in a vacuum? Probably not. But if they know they're consistently playing with these leads, it allows you to play a little bit above your level.

46:48Robert Mays: This game was also a perfect example of they're very well positioned to give this Falcons offense trouble for a couple different reasons. I think that Atlanta early in the game, a lot of those perimeter runs were hitting. We've seen the Bengals struggle with perimeter runs consistently. But this was a perfect example today of how you can get Michael Penix into a bad version of himself. And if you move him off of his spot or if you make things dirty in the middle of the pocket consistently, we've seen how he is affected by that. And so Dexter Lawrence, and it was a lot of stunts, a lot of like small like TT type of twists where they're just getting a little bit of, it's not really true one-on-ones where you're creating a little bit of movement and it's allowing some penetration in the interior part of the pocket and it's disrupting timing just a little bit.

47:38Robert Mays: they did that three or four different times in this game in high leverage moments and that was enough for those moments exactly what you're saying you can get two or three stops the offense is going to be good enough where that might be enough for you to win the game and that's what

47:50Derrik Klassen: happened again today this is going to sound dumb on a day where jamar and t did what they did but also like if if you get contributions like that from a dante myers on a regular basis we're

48:00Robert Mays: talking about him last night he's a good player he's a good player he's a good player he created

48:03Derrik Klassen: the I mean Joe made it a phenomenal play stepping up and getting in the ball but he created the end of half field goal damn near single-handedly this is such a cool play that this play if you're watching it it's the Dante Myers where he just he juked Xavier Watts out of his shoes and got him into field goal range that reminded me so much of LSU Joe Burrow yeah yeah just to like move just

48:25Robert Mays: a little bit we saw that touchdown against to chase last week he did the exact same thing where He's sliding up in the pocket. I mean, it's—and even the—I mean, people reposted this today. The touchdown he throws, the first goalball touchdown he throws to Chase, did the exact same thing to A.J. Terrell when they played Clemson during their final season. People were posting the same time sides. It was the exact same play. And that, honestly, that to me, just to put a button on this, that's what this feels like right now.

48:52Dave Helman: Yeah.

48:53Robert Mays: This legitimately, when you're watching this offense right now, feels like what that 2019 LSU offense looked like and felt like. Take me back. It's the NFL. Yeah, it's not supposed to be like that. It's not supposed to look like this. It's not supposed to feel this easy. And their ability to consistently be doing this to teams is truly just wild stuff.

49:15Dave Helman: Can I end with some numbers on this? Yes. So obviously the season's not over. But since 2000, according to True Media, here are the quarterbacks with at least a 55 % success rate on the season. 2007 brady 2011 drew breeze 2020 josh allen 2004 peyton 2011 tom brady 2018 and 19 drew breeze and 2006 peyton manning joe burrow and brock pretty who we can talk about maybe later are both doing that this year holy shit that's the level that like that's the consistency that they're operating on right now one last thing uh the matador celebration that jamar oh that was awesome

49:46Derrik Klassen: was one of the coolest things i saw in week nine they seem to really enjoy their time in spain which

49:50Robert Mays: I really appreciate it. Hearing Joe Burrow talk about that, I was like, I'm glad you guys had a good time over there. You bring up two Peyton Manning offenses. That's the last thing I'll say. That's what this feels like on an NFL level. Where we are able to play the game differently than the rest of you are because of the quarterback that we have and because of the pass catchers that we have. And it's not as static and simple as the Colts could make it out to be in 2004. where it's two by two gun it's static there's no motion the league has changed enough where you still have to pull the right amount of you still have to pull the levers every once in a while in order to create those matchups consistently but they are doing it in a different way than pretty much anyone else is right now because they can and you are just seeing an offense that is capable of something that most groups aren't because of the way that

50:43Dave Helman: those two receivers and the quarterback can play yeah let's get to our last one here

50:49Robert Mays: the other performance to me that really stuck out today when you just talk about being dynamic being really hard to pin down really hard to stop is that corgi that was on the field in the panthers broncos game he was moving and why i feel compelled to point out this performance is that in the early slate this might have been the best offensive player on the field oh yeah in the noon slate that we got that we watched today this might have been the best offensive player on the field.

51:16Dave Helman: It was a sleepy Sunday until I saw that little guy running around. I mean, this is like, he looks like Bijan.

51:22Derrik Klassen: Oh my God, we've got a graphic.

51:24Robert Mays: Lennox the Corgi. Our producer, Katie, did the math on it and calculated that he ran 51 total yards on that play. So on one single carry, he had more rushing yards than all but two players in the Panthers-Broncos game.

51:39Derrik Klassen: If you're looking for a more football tie-in, I will say, like, I don't, and we're joking about this because i don't firmly know what to do with broncos panthers but one one thing i will say is it had my attention that after like two sleepy series bryce young was just dialed the hell in and looked amazing and right as that was happening the weirdest interception of the season just like they did like a transfer of powers that turned the broncos into a good team for a half hour just one of the strangest sequences where the panthers had my attention because i was like holy shit good bryce is here and he's kicking ass and then immediately an interception that took the whole early windows attention just changed everything on a dime it was so strange the

52:26Robert Mays: corgi was an entry point to talk about the game because there wasn't a clean other way to get into the game i don't know what any of it means the game had our attention right the game was it was a compelling game in the early slate it had we had it on its own tv and the game changes on that pick right i mean they if they score on that possession they go up a touchdown with how much time was left like three minutes left in the fourth quarter oh no it happened it was a little

52:47Derrik Klassen: it was the end of the third quarter yeah so that touchdown happens they're up a touchdown as

52:54Robert Mays: essentially as the third quarter is ending instead the broncos get the ball back they go down and score and the game completely changes and i don't know if there are like big sweeping takeaways from this game in terms of like what you're saying where, all right, I want to know what I should think about these teams coming out of it. How would I explain this? To me, it's two very simple things. The Panthers had no corners in this game and the Panthers have no offensive tackles when you put them up against the Broncos. And so the Broncos ability to just be hitting consistent outbreakers against one-on-one opportunities on the outside throughout those two drives that we're talking about when they those two touchdowns combined with them swallowing the Panthers tackles on multiple drives in the second half that's what the game came down to in my opinion like that is it's that simple where like you have Corey Thornton struggling in one-on-one coverage on the outside against Cortland Sutton multiple times and then you have Monroe Freeling not being able to block Nick Bonito that's that

53:52Dave Helman: was the thing too is like weirdly enough for the first like half and for certain stretches the the Panthers offensive line looked better than it usually does. But then you get to the end where there's nine minutes left in the fourth quarter. It's third and 10. Monroe Freeling is caught in kind of like a two for one situation. He tries to block down. Doesn't even touch. I think it was Jonathan Cooper on that one. And then Walker beat Benito on the final one. And it's just like a monster sack. And it was just like, they held up for a little bit and Bryce like made a number of really impressive throws when they were really did one, when he was kept clean in a couple of those instances,

54:23Derrik Klassen: he was insane when he was clean in this game.

54:26Dave Helman: Yes. Like the, The double post concept that he throws to Waller, like that was one of the best throws of the day by anybody. Like that was really good. And then I will say too, like some of the plays he made under pressure, I thought in this game were pretty good. Like he had 745 left in the third quarter. He was shuffling around a little bit of pressure, rips one over the middle. And then with three and a half minutes to go in the third, it was a little bit before that just bonkers interception. He gets them down into that range because they blitz him under center. He sidesteps. I think it was Alex Singleton as a free rusher and makes an awesome throw on a crosser.

54:56Dave Helman: And it's like he was making some plays just ultimately like the offensive line cratered in the way that it has for a lot of this season at the end.

55:04Robert Mays: And that's the problem. It's actually the conversation reminds me a little bit is when we're talking about the Packers coming into the year where we're talking about how when your worst position groups are your team in pass protection in your corners. Yeah. You see that leads to a real level of volatility. And that's what we've seen from the Panthers.

55:20Derrik Klassen: I mean, it's it sucks because they were able to mitigate it for large chunks of this game, you know. But when it comes down to it, when you're playing against a good team,

55:27Robert Mays: eventually they're going to probably find a little bit of daylight. I mean, we're sitting there. It's 12 minutes left in the fourth quarter, and it's third down, and you have Coral and Sutton working against Marco Wilson. Like, it's going to be really hard over a four-quarter game against a good team to consistently overcome those sorts of disadvantages. And that's kind of where the Panthers are right now. Again, we'll talk about the NFC South in a second, but there are elements of this team where the offense looks really good in stretches and then the offensive line just ceases its ability to function and you feel just how up and down the offense is as a result of that but without the corners like what are you going to do like at a certain point if you don't have other position groups that can take over the game or you don't have a dynamic pressure plan where you can kind of hide those guys consistently it's just hard to get by for four quarters against solid teams here's my my closest thing to a firm take coming out of this game is like it's it's one of the most repeated things heading

56:27Derrik Klassen: into any season and during a season is like one score game variance and when a team does it a lot you can expect regression at what point do i stop expecting regression from the denver broncos because they just keep doing this i have no idea what they are what are they i i they're an ex you You go ahead, Derek. You'll say something smarter than me. I don't know. Mine is pretty simple.

56:53Dave Helman: Their defense is awesome again. And this is with them on working on like safety four and five for like a lot of this game, by the way. Like Talano Hufanga has not played for a while and they're down some of their other guys. So the fact that the defense has been this good, I think has been great. Sean Payton's a really good ball coach, man. Like some of the offensive play calling is good. Obviously the offensive line protection plan.

57:12Derrik Klassen: Maybe not the pitch when you're trying to kill Klaus Lee in a close game. That was not his best moment.

57:17Dave Helman: Otherwise, I feel like they do a pretty good job of keeping things buttoned up. That was insane, though.

57:21Derrik Klassen: I did appreciate he said, like, bad call by me instead of saying, like, pitch the ball better in that situation. I'm like, well, maybe we just don't lateral in a kill clock situation.

57:30Robert Mays: They're the same team they were last year. They're the same team.

57:34Derrik Klassen: So here's what I was going to say. They're bottom five in passing success rate this year. Yeah. Bottom five. That actually plays into my point. If both of your fronts are among the best in the NFL and your quarterback, while not always efficient, often not even always good, is like uniquely skilled in ways that allow you to like buy time and create second chance opportunities. Like basically, like they have a unique ability to like just create rebounds. And like how many rebounds do you get? It's like a basketball team. Like if you just keep getting the offensive board and putting up another shot, eventually it's going to go in.

58:13Derrik Klassen: And I feel like that's what the Broncos are. Like it obviously doesn't always look pretty, but the fronts and the quarterbacks athleticism basically just gives you a chance to get second opportunities or third opportunities or fourth opportunities. And at some point they were 11 and two in one score games last year. And they're six and oh so far in one score games this year. of course they're going to lose some of these eventually and you can't always count on it but i just think that it's it's a unique recipe to have it work out more often than it doesn't and i i don't know that i would want to live that way but they keep recreating it i think it's it's frustrating to see sometimes but you can't deny the results after a certain point you can't and i

58:58Robert Mays: to me i think it's just about when i look at them compared to the other really good teams in the league the other team sitting right here the other teams in the AFC right I mean I don't know I just I feel less confident in them over the rest of the season and as we get into the playoffs compared to a lot of the other teams we're talking about because of how inconsistent and erratic the offense feels like that that's just where I sit with it and I think that last year they their ability to they get to the AFC championship game last year if the quarterback doesn't get hurt there's a good chance they win that game right i still feel like the complexion of the afc playoff pool last year was just very different than what it's going to look like this year right the jags are a better team than they were last year we just talked about the bangles offense we'll see what the bills defense looks like but the bills defense the bills offense is still really freaking good right i just think that winning these sorts of games multiple times in the playoffs as currently constructed, I have less faith and confidence in their ability to do it than the teams that I really feel like I can set my watch by the offense in the AFC.

1:00:08Robert Mays: Whether that's fair or unfair, I don't know. But right now, I think that is how I would characterize the way that I see the Broncos.

1:00:15Derrik Klassen: And I don't think you're wrong, but I do. I'm just I'm chuckling looking at the AFC playoff standings and thinking about the way Josh and Trevor play and how that can lead. And they might get the one seed, man. So every game is in Denver.

1:00:29Dave Helman: It's like it's I do think they would be a bizarre team to kind of like do it just the way that they're built. Like I do think that like the rebound thing is like they kind of just give themselves chances to stay in the game. Yeah. And eventually, like, you just have an all-pro tackle, and you have, like, a couple of good receivers, and you have a quarterback who can run, and, like, five insane defenders. Nick Bonito's going to close out opportunities like he did today. You have, like, multiple closers on defense. Like, Pat Sertan's going to make a play on a ball. Bonito's going to make a sack.

1:00:54Dave Helman: Zach Allen's still one of the best D linemen in the league. When he's healthy, Talano Hufanga's as good a safety as there is in the NFL. Like, they have playmakers at the end of those games.

1:01:02Robert Mays: They absolutely do, and they're a good team. I just think that where I land with it is I feel less confident and I have less faith in the style of good team they are compared to some of the other teams we're talking about. And that does, again, that doesn't mean that they're not a good team. It just means that I would be more uneasy about them than the teams where I just feel more confident about the offense. That's just where it's at.

1:01:26Derrik Klassen: I don't think anything you're saying is wrong, but I think the popular perception of the Broncos is like they can't keep getting away with this, and I'm just starting to think like maybe they can. Maybe they'll just get away with this all the way to, I mean, they got away with it all the way to the AFC championship game last year.

1:01:42Robert Mays: But I think that's my point, is that I think the AFC playoff field looks different this year than it did last year. Just in terms of the quality of teams that we're talking about.

1:01:50Derrik Klassen: I do want to give a quick shout. We already mentioned the fumbled pitch. Jonah Coleman got blown up by Pat Jones on that play and still managed to get up and hustle 12 yards and recover that ball, or else this whole game might change. Like, I think that was an incredible play by him. Obviously, you'd prefer you just catch the pitch. But to get up after getting decked by a pass rusher and find a way to recover that ball was pretty wild.

1:02:14Robert Mays: To put an actual tangible point on this before we move on, so far this season, I want to say they have a 30%. They're like a 37 % passing success rate as a team. That would be a historical outwire for a team to win the Super Bowl. Like a historical outwire. And I assume it will get better than that over the course of the season. Last year, I think they finished around like 44%. even 44 % is not a number that allows a team typically to win the Super Bowl. The only team recently that has won a Super Bowl with like that sort of number and that sort of range over the course of the entire regular season is the 2024 Eagles.

1:02:50Robert Mays: And that is an incredibly unique team.

1:02:53Derrik Klassen: I'm not sure I would back the Broncos to win the Super Bowl, even though I did pick them to get there. I don't feel good about that pick halfway through the year. But that doesn't mean they can't completely f*** up Josh Allen or Trevor Lawrence or Joe Burrow's postseason. They can.

1:03:09Robert Mays: I think that's where I sit with it. I think they can do it once or maybe twice. I have questions about their ability to do it three times. In their, it's a long season. We're only halfway through it. And it already has looked better offensively recently than it did for a vast majority of the first six or so weeks. It helps to play against the Carolina Panthers. The Panthers in this game, the last that I'll throw out, they played 71 % single high per next-gen. It's something the Panthers do. They play a lot of cover three. Knicks was 20 of 26 against those single high coverages. When you have Marco Wilson and Corey Thornton and you're down to like your fourth, fifth DB out there, the offense is going to look pretty good.

1:03:51Robert Mays: When they have to play against really good defenses consistently, what is that going to look like and do they have enough gas? That is still a question that I need answered. I don't think that's unreasonable. All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. The NBA season is here. When you turn on the games, turn on The Athletic Live on YouTube. Become part of the show in the interactive chat along with hosts Zach Harper, Kofi Oboa, and the Athletic Slam Dunk NBA staff. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini. Check it out now and subscribe on YouTube. Football season has arrived, and with the U.S.

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1:04:44Dave Helman: During this year's NFL Hall of Fame induction, I actually had a thought about getting back into sports cards. One of the reasons being is that Luke Keekly, obviously longtime Carolina Panthers linebacker, one of my favorite players of all time. He's the reason I love linebackers the way I do. Some of those Panthers teams just held a really special part in my heart, even as someone who is not a Panthers fan. So to see him obviously commemorated in the Hall of Fame was really special. And I thought, why don't for some of the NFL players that I truly love to have been special players to me over the years, whether that was when I was a kid growing up and doing this for a living, whatever it's been.

1:05:19Dave Helman: Why not kind of commemorate those guys myself and get some of my favorite players who have been in the Hall of Fame, who have obviously earned that sort of honor. Maybe let's go pick up some cards and see if I can kind of create my own Hall of Fame with guys like that. So thanks to Whatnot, I was able to go find some Luke Kuechly cards, some really good ones. And obviously he's been, again, like I said, a player that I've held in high esteem for a long time. So whether it's rookie cards, whether it's cards later in his career when he's got a million accolades and defensive player of the years and all pros racked up, it didn't really matter to me.

1:05:52Dave Helman: I was able to find all of the stuff I wanted in that realm. The best thing about doing this on whatnot is that I can see it before I buy it. This is not just clicking a listing and hoping that it's going to be there. No, these sellers are showing me that they've got this card. And on top of that, these guys know their stuff. These are people who value these cards. They value the collectibles. They value what they are trying to give to the customer and they know whether or not this is something that is really worth its value. And so being able to have the comfort of both of those two things as I'm going in to try to start this new venture, I think has been really, really nice for me.

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1:08:30Robert Mays: Let's get to the other side of the coin here and talk about some of the performances from week nine that weren't quite as impressive. It is time for What the F***. What the f***? They ended up winning the game, but we're not going to absolve them here. The Cowboys-Colts game throughout the entire second half and into the fourth quarter was, I don't even know what the right adjective is. It was mind-numbing, like some of the things that were happening. The CeeDee Lamb, I mean, CeeDee Lamb obviously has a monster day statistically, but for him to not get his feet in on a play that should be the game-winning touchdown and then for him to fumble on a play where it seemed like he was maybe down then not down and then ultimately coughs the ball up and gives the coach a chance to potentially win this thing i i'm so done with the dallas cowboys i just i can't even describe to you i can't even describe to you how tired of

1:09:30Derrik Klassen: this team i am every cowboys fan is like homer simpson patting the couch like come sit with me and let's talk about how much this team drives us crazy it's taking you nine weeks oh i think maize was there after like four well i know this is just like the the straw breaking

1:09:46Robert Mays: the camel's back the idea that they all they left the door open against a team that is actively

1:09:54Derrik Klassen: like tearing it down and trying to like punt on the season jonathan taylor said goodbye to colts fans after this game just in case this was his last game like that's that's where the colts are that doesn't happen very often where a guy like kind of knows he's going to be traded beforehand or at least has like a good evening we don't know if he's on the off chance it happens like thanks for the memories like that's where the colts are and they push the cowboys to the brink and if you've watched this dallas team for more than like an hour this season when cd didn't get his foot down remember we were watching the witching hour together at this point in the day and he we thought he scored and it's like okay 24 10 can probably you know let's check it let's keep an eye on this panthers broncos game that's much more like up in the air and then you look over maize literally was like wait what happened in the touchdown like it came off the board and the minute they kicked that field goal to go up 20 to 10 if you've watched any of this team play you're just like this is gonna be frenetic like this is going to be nail nail biting all the way down to the end and it was

1:10:57Dave Helman: they also had as an offense I think this also sums up the frustration they had nine accepted penalties as an offense and a lot of them like when I went back and watched it it's like Tyler Guyton is moving somebody in the run game and then Brevin Spanford gets a hold that happened multiple times they had like a pass interference I think on a screen that like called back a big play it was just like even when they were having some of their good plays something stupid goes wrong like the CD lamb catch where he's like down and then fumbles like that's a massive play and then something still goes wrong at the end.

1:11:26Dave Helman: And so it felt like one of those games too.

1:11:29Robert Mays: The sequence where Lamb doesn't get inbounds and then they give the 55-yard touchdown to Ashton Doolin to cut it to three is just the most 2026 Cowboys bullshit that you can possibly imagine.

1:11:41Dave Helman: Just the whole game, it just felt like shit like that for the entirety of the game.

1:11:46Robert Mays: They're the Keystone Cops, man. I want to just say right now, we said this during when we were watching the game live i'm done with this i'm done with this i don't care if they have the greatest offseason of all time i don't care if they had like five all pros in a single offseason somehow i i don't care anymore this team needs to prove it to me i i need to see them sitting there at like 12 and 0 in any given season for me to actually believe that they're decent. And even that.

1:12:20Derrik Klassen: Absolutely not. I don't know if I'm willing to get there. If they start out 12-0, that's, I mean, and this is just my own PTSD, but if they're 12-0, it's like, okay, who are they going one and done against in the playoffs? They got to be on the dais with the confetti falling for me to believe in this team. We just talked about the Jordan Love game.

1:12:39Dave Helman: Weren't they like one of the best? They were one of the top. Entirely different conversation.

1:12:44Derrik Klassen: They were unbeatable, especially at home. Incredible. They were absolutely incredible. Didn't matter. I mean, the fact that they go down by three with a minute and 41 seconds left in this game.

1:12:56Robert Mays: And they absolutely could have lost this game to their fans.

1:13:00Derrik Klassen: They absolutely could have. The crazy thing is, so they forced five consecutive punts in the middle eight of this game. So today, actually, even with the Ashton Doolin touchdown, even with all of that, this was their best EPA per play of the season defensively. And in large part because they forced five consecutive punts. and they were really, I mean, they were all over the Colts in the first half of the game. But after that last punt, midway through the third, 11 play field goal drive, busted ass Ashton Doolin screen touchdown. And then the Colts went and Quentin Williams bailed them out with that forced fumble where he just ate Jonathan Taylor.

1:13:37Derrik Klassen: But on that drive, the Colts went 72 yards and four snaps. Like Deron Bland gave up a 40-yard DPI. The winners had a roughing call on a tackle. They're just, they're completely hapless. and the idea that they're going to buckle it all together for more than like three or four possessions at a time, I just think it would have happened by now if it were possible. The one drive where they play for like a 55-yard field goal or something like that? It was a 50-yard field goal. Yeah, and it was like they went for the kill shot. It was third and three, and they went and threw a one-on-one go ball. CeeD caught 10 balls for 195 yards in this game, which it sucks for CeeDee that he went 10 for 195 and a touchdown, And when I think about this game, I'm just going to be like, oh, that was the weird CD fumble and couldn't get his feet down game.

1:14:22Derrik Klassen: Well, that's his whole season.

1:14:24Dave Helman: He's like top five or six, I think, in receiving yards. And the whole time we're just like, what is wrong with the Cowboys passing offense?

1:14:31Robert Mays: George Pickens didn't play in this game. The spirit of George Pickens embodied CD Lamb, where typically in any given game, George Pickens in any moment could do anything. Like anything could happen on any George Pickens play. You unwrap it and whatever, anything you can and cannot imagine is waiting for you inside that box. CeeDee Lamb did that today. He took up the mantle.

1:14:53Derrik Klassen: Also, speaking of the spirit of George Pickens, I don't know if this was George. As far as I'm aware, the guy hasn't been identified. But on one of their takeaways, like somebody in sideline gear celebrated on the field with the defense. I think he got flagged for it. That's amazing. I've never seen that before. That's really funny. A comical, comical performance. And, I mean, hey, they got to win, which is nice because they play San Francisco next. Oh, that's going to be a bloodbath. Dude, Shanahan murders the Cowboys when they're good. Like the Mike McCarthy Cowboys wanted nothing to do with San Francisco.

1:15:32Derrik Klassen: What do you think these guys are going to do?

1:15:33Robert Mays: We're going to see success rates that we've never seen before when the Niners play the Cowboys next week that we've never seen before. We're talking like 70 % and up. Let's get to our next one here. It's time for this conversation. We've ignored the Los Angeles Chargers for the most part over the last month or so because they don't deserve our time or energy or care. They get dusted by the Houston Texans today, 44 to 22. They fall to 0 and 8. I think for a few different reasons, now is the time to have parts of this discussion. The Chargers are winless. They're the worst team in the league. pretty comfortably.

1:16:12Robert Mays: It's not even close. If you look at some of the numbers. They are dead last in DVOA. They are the worst offense in football. Their defense is middle of the road. They got absolutely eaten up today by a Texans passing game that is worth talking about because they look really, really good. And CJ Stroud continues to play excellent football. The Chargers have made it known to everybody that they're not going to trade anyone at the deadline. They don't want to feel like they're waving the white flag. The white flag is being waived. like this I don't understand right this has gone from this team is disappointing compared to preseason expectations to this is one of the most disappointing teams in modern NFL history to a point now where I need somebody to tell me why anybody in a leadership position with this team should continue to have a job after the season is over when if let's say that let's just play this out.

1:17:09Let's say the Chargers go 3-14, which at this point would be impressive.

1:17:16Robert Mays: That would mean they go 3-6 the rest of the way. It's hard to find the three wins. Let's just, in this hypothetical, be optimistic and say the Chargers go 3-14. If you go back through the last 15 years of the NFL and look at the teams that have won three games, these are teams that should be terrible, that are rebuilding teams, that are teams that are at the end of a terrible head coaching cycle or at the beginning of one where they have zero expectations. This is like truly bottom of the barrel shit, like what the Titans have been over the last couple of years. The Chargers have the sixth best Super Bowl odds of any team coming into the season.

1:17:52Robert Mays: I can't remember a situation like this where you are like a two or three win team that was supposed to be a playoff team without a catastrophic level of injuries or a quarterback injury specifically. they are bad and they are disappointing in a way I can't remember a team being bad or disappointing and I would love to hear a compelling reason why this group should get to oversee whatever the next stage of this looks like if this season continues to go the way that it's going and I have no reason

1:18:24Dave Helman: to think that it won't it is one of the biggest catastrophes that like I've ever seen because like let's just let's maybe admit that like them being sick than odds was like that was probably overzealous from the beginning but let's just say they should have been 11 when was the last time a team that was 11th in super bowl odds like blow up this bad a team coming off back-to-back playoff

1:18:44Derrik Klassen: appearances 11 win season didn't have a drastic roster turnover listen to joe ortiz say it say

1:18:51Robert Mays: to daniel popper we won 11 games pop i think that's pretty good right how's that going every

1:18:56Dave Helman: year is different not great clean slate every year and like i think i've complained a little that this team doesn't have enough star talent. And I believe that that is still true. And I think I probably said that coming into this season. It's more than that, though. Like, this team doesn't look well coached. Like, the quarterback is clearly struggling. They don't have answers for any stuff that, like, in terms of, like, what's going wrong. They don't really seem to be going to new answers. And the other thing that I would say, this being such a catastrophe, I think, like, in a vacuum, it's easy to see, like, well, good staffs, you know, you get one year.

1:19:24Dave Helman: You get one year of going, like, 5 and 12. Yes. Like, things break your way, things break wrong, couple of injuries here and there it's just a weird season maybe your division's just loaded whatever you 5 and 12 that's fine being the worst team in the league like coming into the season we all would have said it was the dolphins Dave and I were talking about this earlier I'm gonna say neutral site game do you do you pick the dolphins or the chargers right now the dolphins are a better

1:19:47Derrik Klassen: team right now the dolphins would beat their ass I mean they play like Christmas weekend so we'll

1:19:53Robert Mays: have a chance to put this to the test that the fact that that is the case the fact that when you watch the Dolphins right now, they are feisty. They're doing some good things. They're giving a team like the Lions a little bit of trouble over the course of this game. The fact that the Chargers are so far removed from that, what reason do we have to continue this? What is the compelling reason for why we should want to see this group in these jobs anymore?

1:20:20Derrik Klassen: I don't know if there is one. And the other thing I would add on top of that, I mean, you mentioned it but it aggravates the shit out of me to hear all this talk that they're not interested in selling and i hope somebody talks some sense into joe ortiz and jim harbaugh between now and tuesday afternoon because i mean it's drastically disappointing but the idea that you're just gonna stubbornly go down with the ship it's a level of delusion that i like can't remember happening it's yeah like the the sheer like head in the sand mentality that that would take and and i get it like you know the harbaugh's are famous for saying attack every day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind you're not well first of all i've watched the chargers play yes a that's true but b the thing that aggravates me is like well that's that there are checks and balance is in a football facility where like the GM is supposed to unemotionally and detached from all of that.

1:21:22Derrik Klassen: Yes. Make the moves that are the best for the football team. So like is Jim Harbaugh calling all the shots in the building and Joe Hortiz is just there for decoration or is like do you agree with that? Because for where we are. How could you not be trying to jumpstart next year? And like, how could I watch you just sink under the waves without even trying to get started on improving this thing for next year by dealing Khalil Mack or whoever? And like, why would I want you making those decisions in the spring? And by the way, you can take it all the way back in time and say, maybe some of those decisions are why you're in this position in the first place.

1:22:02Derrik Klassen: Like, I mean, it sucks that you lost Tyler Biotis before the season started, but this is not about that. The cracks were already showing well before any of that stuff happened, clearly. For this game specifically, I went through all the sacks. The first sack, when you go back and you watch it,

1:22:21Robert Mays: Charlie Kohler and Joe All are not out of their stances when Justin Herbert is starting his play fake on that play. Will Anderson runs right by Charlie Kohler, drops Justin Herbert, and they get an illegal formation penalty on the play. I looked up this number because I was curious. because it just seemed like every time they did it, it was a disaster. On play-action plays through the first nine weeks, the Chargers have the 12th worst mark in total EPA on those plays since 2016. So 10 years, 11 seasons. The seasons ahead of them that are worse, here's a smattering of them. Sam Darnold's rookie year, Zach Wilson's rookie year, Bryce Young's second season before he was benched, the Carson Wentz nuclear apocalypse in 2020, Josh Allen's rookie year, the 24 and 25 Browns, the 0 and 16, 27 Browns, the tank for two Adolphins, are eight of the 11 teams.

1:23:20Dave Helman: So 22-year-olds and like the worst quarterbacks we've ever seen, basically.

1:23:25Robert Mays: That is the level of offense that we are getting from the Los Angeles Chargers right now. And so the, clearly like the root of this is the Mike McDaniel thing is the most wrong a collection of people have been about a preseason element of the NFL in the 15 years that I've been doing this, by far. Like, even if you had doubts about what the ceiling of it would look like and if it was a little bit of a mismatch pairing or whatever, the idea that it would be a flaming disaster, historically terrible offense over the first nine weeks without everyone on the team getting hurt is insane. And now this extends to a really weird situation with the quarterback.

1:24:10Robert Mays: Even if you were of the opinion that Justin Herbert was never as good as assholes like us made him out to be, which is fine. And I think that there are elements of this that we are over-indexed on aesthetics with both the quarterback and the play caller in ways that have come out to be disastrous. He was always like in that group of second tier quarterbacks between like the fifth and 10th best quarterback in the league by both results and consensus and justifiably so the number and people will come out and they will say he's always he was never that good he was never that good i tweeted it out this week before this season started among players with at least 2 500 dropbacks he had the second lowest interception rate in nfl history behind aaron rogers even when he was bad even when he was not as good as you thought he was he was not doing this now he is broken and I don't know what happens from this because I don't and I was going to ask you this do we have any examples of a quarterback who has looked this bad over we've had guys that have bad stretches for nine weeks to play this poorly and look this like irreparably damaged have we ever seen a quarterback pull out of that sort of tailspin before this deep into their

1:25:31Dave Helman: careers I mean how bad was like Raiders Carson Palmer like obviously at the end like he turns it around but like even that I don't feel like it ever got this bad I think that team overall was just really bad I can't think of many examples where it truly felt like because guys have like gone down and played like let's say you're the sixth best quarterback in the NFL let's just say that's what Justin Herbert was and he has a year where he plays like the 20th it's like yeah sometimes that just happens to guys and you dip a little bit Dak has had seasons I think like this where things just don't go his way.

1:25:58Dave Helman: But he's never been like, holy shit, is he the quarterback next year?

1:26:02Derrik Klassen: They have the worst offense in the league. Yes. Dak throwing too many interceptions is a far cry from what we're seeing from Justin Herbert. And that's what I was going to ask you is, has there ever been a quarterback who, again, to echo everything you just said, if you didn't love Justin Herbert, that's fine. But like, he's an established, accomplished quarterback. Have we ever seen a guy fall off a cliff like this and like i mean i know justin herbert's been banged up for half of his nfl career but it's not debilitating injury that keeps you off the field and it's not age he's in the he's in prime quarterbacking years i i know i don't think i've ever seen anything like it in carson palmer's

1:26:43Robert Mays: second season with the raiders he had a qbr 46.6 just to put one number on it justin herbert currently sits at 32.5. I don't know what I'm not closing the door on this potentially getting salvaged when they if they bring in a new staff that they try to like start from the ground up. I just don't even know what that process would even look like based on what he looks like right now. I don't I don't even know like if I was trying to picture a resurrection of what getting back to a place where close to where he used to be from where he is right now I like don't even know what that would look like considering how bad he looks right now I mean in terms of just

1:27:24Dave Helman: like offensive construction he did always seem more comfortable in offenses that were a little bit more spread and shred like kind of just let him see stuff pre-snap and that's not really the way that the Mike McDaniel offense works and like maybe there's just some element of you've got to just let him do that I also do think that like he's obviously playing very poor football the The rest of the offense is also just like completely rotten. Oh, it's broken.

1:27:44Robert Mays: But he's making it worse. You know, absolutely. That's the problem. He's consistently making it worse.

1:27:48Dave Helman: He's making it a lot worse. But it's like second and five on the first drive. They run this like reverse flea flicker. And he puts it right on Trey Harris and he just drops it. And it's just like stuff like that. There's a later, I think it might have been later on that drive or maybe the next drive. They run on a third and nine to get into fourth and three. Just like, OK, we should go for it. We're not going to win this game. They just kick a field goal. And they do stuff like that. And then the one where I think you see him being broken and the overall details in the offense being bad. There's a minute left in the first quarter.

1:28:15Dave Helman: It's third and seven. They have one of those escort swings to the right where you just have like some lead tight end. And then you swing it out to the running back. He gets to it like two beats too late and then like rifles it past his his head. I'm like, well, how's he supposed to make a play doing that? Like this is a yards after catch play and you're late and you beam it past him. Like it's just the offense isn't going to work if we're trying to function that way. And so it really is a combination of everything. And I don't have that many examples of a quarterback, especially going into a season having a stretch like this, because he ended the last season like this, but he played well for 12 games.

1:28:49Dave Helman: And then the entire offensive line just collapsed in front of him.

1:28:53Robert Mays: I'm not going to pretend to be able to put an exact reason as to why we're seeing what we're seeing. But anecdotally, I think that in the back half of last year, the offense ceased to function on time. it was a I need to pull the ripcord immediately all the time and the offense just I mean you looked at it like the Philly game that they won in primetime that was a game where him doing what he did as a scrambler and doing all that stuff off schedule was the only reason they were able to function as an offense but at a certain point you can't play like that and I do wonder if that mode that he went into in the back half of last year had like lasting damage and you combine that with clearly a system that he's not comfortable with.

1:29:34Robert Mays: And it's been a while since we saw him play, like, on time, consistently buttoned-up quarterback. And I don't know what happens now. Because if you had told me even a month ago, hey, like, they're going to fire everybody. Like, they'll bring Justin back. They'll bring in a new staff. They'll see if they can kind of salvage some of this. I'd say, yeah, that's probably the right way to do it. Right now, if you were the new GM of the Los Angeles Chargers, let's say everybody gets fired. And a team like the Vikings called and was like, we'll give you two first round picks for Justin Herbert. Would you do it?

1:30:10Robert Mays: As a way to reset your team and actually have like a new direction and the ammo to take this thing and like carve out a new path. We have seen teams get those picks for quarterbacks. The Lions did it with Matthew Stafford. And it completely set them on a new trajectory with the new staff. For a long time, I would have been like, that's a non-starter. Now, I think that I would at least listen to it.

1:30:35Derrik Klassen: Because I don't, this is weird. As a fan of football and someone who has liked watching Justin Herbert play for most of his career, I would like to see that because I want Justin Herbert to be given a shot to resuscitate his career. I still think if you're an NFL decision maker, the combination of Herbert and the tackles and the draft capital you could accumulate by being winless I think is still too appealing to do something like that like I think people would jump at a chance to try to fix whatever's wrong with Justin Herbert especially if like you know

1:31:12Dave Helman: if Jeremiah Smith is on the chargers or whatever I think so too the only reason I could get why a team would do it is assuming they go winless or close to it like you kind of are guaranteed to pick a quarterback again like you're going to be first or second in the draft and arch will be there drew mess whatever like it will be there that's whereas sometimes it's a conversation for

1:31:32Derrik Klassen: another day but i don't know man i don't know i don't know if there's a guy in the draft well

1:31:36Dave Helman: whether or not those guys are like elite quarterback prospects is a different thing but you will have access sure to getting one and i do think that that is like sometimes teams go into the wilderness a year early and you don't know where you're going to be picking and i think that that makes it a little bit more. But I think I'm in line with you of like, I've seen him play at a really high level before, and I think I'd rather try to figure that out.

1:31:58Robert Mays: And I, listen, the fact that I'm at this point is very far from where I've ever been before.

1:32:05Derrik Klassen: I don't, it's not a comfortable place for me to be. I'm more convicted. I don't want to do the it's not his fault thing. Like Justin Herbert has plenty of culpability in this. He absolutely does. But from what we've seen from the head coach this year and how disastrous the OC hire has been. What has happened to the offensive line? It's not bad enough that they should look this terrible, but they are dealing with things up front. The skill players are horrendous. They've been horrendous all year. If I was an NFL GM, I would be like, yeah, of course I'll get this guy playing good football again.

1:32:39Derrik Klassen: Are you kidding? Look at him. He's a football robot. He's a mech warrior. That's how I feel. I refuse to believe that 29-year-old Justin Herbert is done playing good football, assuming somebody can do something with him. Like I said, he deserves blame for how this season has gone, absolutely, but I refuse to believe it's over, just completely.

1:33:03Robert Mays: I really don't know anymore. And it's solely because... It's unprecedented. That's the reason, because I can't remember anything like this. I cannot remember a cliff that has looked like this before for a guy at this stage of his career. And so I want to be there with you. Like, I think that's the logical, rational place to land. But there is a little bit of me that's like, I don't know if it's ever coming back

1:33:30Derrik Klassen: after what we've just seen. To go back to the beginning of the conversation, do the people that have created this environment deserve the opportunity to try to fix it? Why would they? I don't think so. Yeah, no.

1:33:41Robert Mays: Like, why would they? Why would you have any faith that it can get, that they can pull out of this?

1:33:46Dave Helman: I don't because again regardless of how good you actually thought Herbert was pure talent wise he is top 10 undeniably you cannot go winless with a quarterback like that it's just it's you can't

1:33:58Robert Mays: speaking of teams that have been disappointed let's get to our next one the Los Angeles Rams squeak out a win over the Commanders 20 to 13 we don't have to spend a ton of time on this because it's not like they won the game it wasn't an absolute disaster I look at the Rams offense right now and they are in a like what the place i don't know what this thing is supposed to be and now we're in a spot where they hand the ball off to puka nakua on a third and 11 give up play and a game where he has touched the ball like 20 times he hurts his knee we don't know what the severity is or when he'll be back but if he misses any sort of time like you look at what the offense is right now.

1:34:42Robert Mays: He had 19 targets in this game, Puka did, for the Rams. No other Ram had more than five targets. He had 60 % of their air yards. Colby Parkinson had the second most catches on the team. He averaged negative 1.7 air yards per target. Puka is the entire passing game, and the entire passing game is incredible. I'm going to use a word that's 12-15, but that's what it feels like. it feels like so constipated like the whole the whole passing game just feels so tight and condensed and they're manufacturing everything they have to do and so now you potentially remove him from this equation the defense miles garrett's back they looked awesome there is a chance that the defense can really carry them and keep them competitive but the offense has currently constructed even with puka i just don't know what the real realistic expectations for this group are the way that they are being forced to play right now and that's with him in the lineup i spun back

1:35:45Derrik Klassen: through this game early in the bears bucks game and i i didn't i'm not gonna say i felt better but like you see this result and jaden daniels is like throwing while he didn't throw into the end zone for a chance to tie the game he threw that was through a five-yard check down with three seconds to play. But considering the result and the score and the way it played out, it's confusing in the moment. I went back and watched it and I was like, oh no, this makes perfect sense. Matthew Stafford doesn't trust a single piece of this thing that's not named Puka Nakua. And Matthew Stafford isn't worth trusting right now as part of the problem.

1:36:19Derrik Klassen: He's playing poorly. So he was not accurate today.

1:36:22Robert Mays: No, he's had those issues for chunks of this season.

1:36:26Derrik Klassen: He was one of seven for 13 yards targeting receivers not named Puka 10 plus yards down the field. They have nothing. And you're right. He struggled with accuracy, but like 2-2 dropped a first down in this game. They missed an explosive to 2-2 because he just wasn't expecting the ball. And like two snaps later was the Matthew Stafford pick. And you can watch him in real time just say, f*** this, I'm just going to throw it to Puka no matter how well covered he is. And it was well covered enough to be picked off deep in their own territory. And so it's not good, but it's at least not confusing. Like, I watched this game back, and I was like, oh, this makes perfect sense.

1:37:05Derrik Klassen: They have, like, one piece of their passing game that they feel like they can trust. But that's just what it's going to look like. It's not going to get it.

1:37:13Robert Mays: I mean, Terrence Ferguson missed this game, right? He had a setback in practice. He didn't end up playing. But I just don't know. The only way for this Rams team to be relevant is in a completely different way than we might have expected. It's for them to win, like, 20 to 13 games because they have Miles Garrett and Aaron Donald. and they terrorize the opposing team's quarterback.

1:37:33Dave Helman: They have to win games the way that the Bucs can win games right now, which is our defense is, like, really good. And we run for 175 yards and we choke the life out of the game. And a quarterback makes, can he just make five really good throws despite, like, two that are like, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, that's just kind of where they're at realistically. And, like, I think some people are going to, like, take that to, like, wash away how well Matthew Stafford played last year. He was unbelievable last year. He was incredible last year. He clearly is a little bit stiffer this year. And the overall, I think, ecosystem is a little bit worse because Puka never came into the year healthy.

1:38:08Dave Helman: Devontae Adams, we were a little bit unsure. And he had moments against, you know, a poor giant secondary early in the season. But he's obviously missing time. Their whole 13 personnel thing they wanted to do because Ferguson is out as, like, clearly a mess. Like, they just, for a lot of reasons, have not been the team that they want. And I think Stafford is just not playing as well. He had accuracy issues early in the season. I know he's had a couple of good games. but like there was a third and six where he's trying to throw a corner out early in the second quarter that he just misses. He misses Higby wide on another third and nine in the fourth quarter.

1:38:38Dave Helman: I think even on like one of the, the two to Atwell drop, like over the middle on that third and two, he's wide open and he kind of puts it behind him and like makes it a much tougher catch than it needs to be. Like, I just think that even if mentally he can still see some stuff and he has some good plays and he gives the offensive floor because he can get them in and out of stuff. you just can't really access the ceiling right now because the receivers are gone and he's just not making those like seven oh my god level throws the way that he used to is it cope if

1:39:09Derrik Klassen: i'm certainly i'm not going to say i'm not concerned but one of the benefits of having a super roster is you can hopefully survive this way until i mean hopefully ferguson will be back sooner rather than later i mean i think mcveigh said it might be a couple more weeks now that he suffered that setback and then hold out hope davante adams is ready for a playoff push but miles garrett and aaron donald is a hell of an equalizer and they didn't even have uh trent mcduffie in this game he missed this game with a back injury as well so you did that without jalen watson's out for the year i know that but you get mcduffie back to go with what you already have on the front it isn't going to be as fun as we hoped it would be and that is a bummer but i I was watching this back and I was like, yeah, there's probably a formula here for winning games ugly.

1:39:57Yeah.

1:39:58Robert Mays: That's not what anybody wants to see. This offense and what the offense looks like, even with Puka on the field, is just never what I would have expected. And they have— Puka is getting scans Monday. Exactly. That's worth mentioning. And who the hell knows what this is going to— There's a chance that he's hurt. And so it's—

1:40:17Derrik Klassen: If he's hurt, then they're screwed.

1:40:18Robert Mays: I want to say that for the record. And that's the thing. They're not screwed now. there is real cause for concern about what they are capable of accomplishing even with the defense playing at this level because I just don't think the offense has nearly enough with the pieces that they have right now. And even with Terrence Ferguson back, I would have real questions about that because I don't think the quarterback is playing well. I think that's the part of this that like, okay, let's say the running game can be what it is. Avila gets hurt at one point in this game. The offensive line is fully healthy.

1:40:47Robert Mays: You can run the ball really efficiently. Puka is still a part of this. and you have Terrence Ferguson back and Matthew Stafford is playing at 85 % of what he looked like last year. I think there is a world where that all works. He's not playing at that level and them playing shorthanded and him being like two full steps down from where he was last year, I just don't know what sort of path forward there is for the offense over the course of the season. Like this is what they are. Like they scored 20 points against the commanders today and you'd be like, oh, it's a fluky game, whatever. It's exactly what you said.

1:41:22Robert Mays: No, this is just what they are. This is what they are right now offensively, and that is a very tough place to be.

1:41:27Derrik Klassen: They still have a two and a four in next year's draft. Oh, my God. Just go full through it. I kind of, you know, I say that with my tongue in my cheek, but, like, you're already pot committed to going all in for this year. Might as well just trade for Brian Thomas Jr. I mean, if you could get yourself a competent receiver with something you have left over, like what's what's the argument for not like whatever you think about ty simpson he's on the team so like they've addressed their most existential fear for the future like ty simpson is the quarterback of the future until proven otherwise so you don't have to worry about that so with that already up your sleeve yeah if if you could get btj or it's 12 30 and i can't think of any other receivers but like if somebody was willing to part with a meaningful receiver he's

1:42:15Robert Mays: guy that I think would make sense for them. It's just like to have a vertical element of the offense where you can do a little bit of something downfield that you just cannot do right now. But it is they're in a tough, tough spot at this point. All right, before we move on, let's take one more quick break.

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1:46:17All right.

1:46:18Robert Mays: Do you want to, do you guys want to hit the NFC South really quickly?

1:46:20Derrik Klassen: Yeah, let's do it.

1:46:21Robert Mays: Just mentioning two minutes. So the other WTF thing about week nine is just what the current state of the NFC South looks like. The Saints win this game today against the Browns in overtime. Every team in the NFC South has three wins. I just don't know what to make of this. I still think the Bucs are the best team. If I was just stacking it up right now because of what the defense is capable of, I still think the Panthers offense probably has the highest ceiling of all the offensive units just because we've... I think maybe... Pending Baker's health.

1:46:54Dave Helman: Like, if his thumb gets right by, like, December and Abukka stops being on, like, on and off on the questionable, you know, for every single injury list, it's like, okay, maybe their offense has a decent enough ceiling because their offensive line and run game kicks ass. But so far this season, the highest ceiling that I think we've seen is probably the Panthers and, like, one game from the Falcons, maybe. It's a hilarious division.

1:47:18Robert Mays: Like the idea that every single one of these teams is sitting there at 3-5 or 3-6, and handicapping it right now, again, I feel like I'd probably put my money on the Bucs, but I don't necessarily feel good about it.

1:47:29Derrik Klassen: We joked about it on the preview show. First of all, I mean, we expected Jordan Tyson to make his debut. I did not have Kelvin Banks coming back for this Cleveland game on my bingo card, and there he was playing for the Saints today. and so and and Tyler Shuck you know not not the prettiest or most entertaining game throughout but like in crunch time yeah I thought he showed up I'm excited that Tyler Shuck and and the Saints in general like if if Banks is back healthy and now you have Jordan Tyson like hopefully we'll get to see the Saints offense that we were excited about in the preseason on a more consistent basis than we have for most of this season it was a maddening game I mean they the Tyson fumble the

1:48:11Robert Mays: the number of sacks they took in the red zone in this game like they should have won this game

1:48:15Dave Helman: handily and did not and also at the end should have lost it the harold fan in scoring the way he did oh my god just breaking that many tackles and like getting over the end like like i know that it was a game where obviously like it just the fact that they got away with having won that

1:48:33Derrik Klassen: game after that play was criminal to me can i say something i kind of hate myself for i all i love aggressive decisions. I do. I admire that Todd Monken was like, screw it. Let's go for the win. But given the state of the AFC where like the seating already looks locked in and there's not going to be a lot of contenders for the last couple wildcard spots, I found myself thinking like maybe a tie is not the worst thing in the world for the Cleveland Browns right now. Like Todd Monken doesn't operate that way. The Ravens and the Raiders probably aren't going to catch you. Like, maybe a tie would have been fine, but I'm mostly kidding.

1:49:09Derrik Klassen: I appreciate Todd Monken having some stones. Well,

1:49:14Robert Mays: we have an interesting experience with this division over the final nine weeks or so. It's unlike anything I can ever remember. I'm interested in how it goes, but the fact that, again, we're sitting here with all these teams with three wins is f***ing hilarious. All right, before we get out of here, let's talk about what made us feel romantic about football in Week 9.

1:49:30Derrik Klassen: I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty.

1:49:33Robert Mays: We did not talk about the Texans when we were talking about the Chargers because we were saving it for this conversation. Two things made me feel romantic about football in Week 9 from the Houston Texans. One, Tank Dell scoring that touchdown. Yeah. And just thinking about where Tank Dell has been over the last two years. That moment when he got hurt and C.J. Stroud's response to that moment and just the road back that Tank Dell had to follow. For him to even be back on the field at all, let alone have a moment like that. I don't know how you can't feel romantic about that. And then, obviously, the touchdown that Nico Collins scores in this game, just purely on a holy shit level.

1:50:10Robert Mays: I don't know how you can't feel romantic about that play. And so the Chargers are an absolute mess, but the Texans passing game right now, the construction of it, the pieces of it, the way that C.J. Stroud is playing, that made me feel romantic about football in Week 9.

1:50:25Derrik Klassen: Most of the stuff we said about Jordan Love earlier in the show applies to C.J. Stroud, too. I know that the Texans are three and five. They are a disappointment relative to the preseason hype, but CJ Stroud is having an incredible season.

1:50:39Dave Helman: Well, he, the touchdown he threw before the half, I think it was to Kayshawn Booty on like an outbreaker. He does like the Jordan Love drift back, even though both edges are losing and just like chucks this outbreaker. Well, it literally looks like Jordan Love doing that. And so I thought that part of it was incredible. The Tank Dale thing is like a nasty out and up route that he just like, Like, Stroud puts, like, crazy touch on the ball, too. Like, that play was just amazing that he's able to make it at all. And then just, like, the pitch and catch, the run after catch, just sprinting by everybody.

1:51:06Dave Helman: It looked like he was fully back, which was really cool to see. The other one I want to quick shout out, like, Texans a little bit feeling back. Jalen Petrie was back in this game. You felt Jalen Petrie back in this game. And I know it's the Chargers offense. But it was like, oh, yeah, the crazy nickel who can just run around and do stuff. Like, he was making plays. And so that, to me, also made them for a small moment. the texans defense felt like a texans defense they've found something with the passing game

1:51:31Robert Mays: yeah like some of the levers that they're pulling the amount of so nico collins has been in the slot for double digit snaps over the last two games they're like finding ways to create matchups for him some of the things they're doing like on the booty touchdown no excuse me on the hutchinson touchdown if you watch that like woody marks is open on a little angle route from the backfield too like they're getting five out like the construction of the drop back passing game for the Houston Texans and all of the pass catchers that they have is legitimately really exciting. And it's kind of reframed to me the conversation about the Texans where this season is disappointing, right?

1:52:07Robert Mays: This is not the team that the Texans were billed to be. They are not going to accomplish, most likely, what people thought they might coming into the year. But the way that Stroud has played and the idea of him playing at this level moving forward with these pass catchers. It still gives me a lot of hope and optimism about what the Texans can be on like a multi-year level, even if I've had to kind of rewire my brain about what type of team I consider the Houston Texans. And so I don't know if there's a lot of comfort to be found in that if you're a Texans fan and this still might be a lost season.

1:52:41Robert Mays: But the idea that this guy is playing like this and your offense can have this element to it this year moving into next year, like there's still a lot to be excited about here, even if they're probably going to fall short this season specifically.

1:52:56Derrik Klassen: It's definitely disappointing to this point. I mean, the way he's playing, I'm not completely willing to close the book on the Texans. But either way, the fact that if this continues, like, you know, you're re-signing C.J. Stroud. I think that's huge. And not that many people were confident about that heading into the year. There was a real question about what he was going to look like. To definitively be like, yeah, of course, we're going to re-sign C.J. Stroud. I don't think it offsets the disappointment, but it's a win. It's a big win.

1:53:29Robert Mays: Again, I think you have to kind of rethink what this team is and what they're going to be. But they're sixth in EPA per drop back this year. Sixth. And they look like it. I mean, what he is doing from the pocket, he's playing at a ridiculously high level.

1:53:43Derrik Klassen: And so the run game is not the bonus that we thought it would be. No, it really didn't lift the floor very much.

1:53:50Robert Mays: He's another one of these guys where a ton is being put on him, considering the construction of the offense overall, and he has answered the bell. And so this team is, again, a disappointment relative to preseason expectations, but the way the quarterback is playing and what that does for your outlook moving forward is still something that I think you can find a little bit of comfort in if you're a Texans fan. All right. That is all we've got from Week 9, our three hangover games tomorrow. Tomorrow we got Chiefs Jets, Niners Raiders, and Lions Dolphins are going to be the three that me and Derek are digging into.

1:54:25Robert Mays: As a quick reminder, on Tuesday this week, we will have a live stream recapping all things trade deadline. Be on the lookout for that on the YouTube channel. We'd love you guys would come hang out with us on what is hopefully going to be an exciting day. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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