Josh Allen & Carson Wentz wear down Vikings defense, Bills win 23-6

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2:08Derrik Klassen: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I am Dave Hellman. The Buffalo Bills, the big winners of Monday night, a 23-6 win in Minneapolis. But the big story, Minnesota offense continues to struggle. A nightmare of a night for Carson Wentz. Derek Klassen and I broke down the game, the good, the bad, the very ugly, where the Minnesota Vikings go from here at quarterback and on offense. Really fun conversation. Let's get right into it.

2:46Derrik Klassen: Welcome into the show. Very quick programming note before we dive in. Robert had a family emergency tonight. He had to step away. I promise he did not opt out of this. He told me to make it very clear that he had a lot to say about this Carson Wentz game and what's sitting in front of the Minnesota Vikings. He'll be back later in the week as we go, wishing him the best. But tonight, I'm Dave Hellman. Derek Klassen is with me. Good to see you in person for a late night recap, by the way. Yeah, getting to do this one in person is kind of fun. You know what's not fun? Most of that game. You know what?

3:23Derrik Klassen: Actually, leave the Bills out of it because the Bills did some fun stuff. The Bills defense, we need to talk about the level of competition, but the Bills defense is doing some fun stuff, and Josh Allen did like six cool Josh Allen things for better and for worse in this game. I'm going to put them off to the side because we need to talk about the Minnesota Vikings and whatever the hell that was from Carson Wentz and honestly where you go from here like I do want to talk about the game with you but after a performance like that from Carson Wentz where I believe he finished with 80 passing yards through two interceptions had a fumble on his first snap

3:59Dave Helman: of the night could have thrown another pick I mean the first interception he throws I think the irony is like he throws it on a seam ball to TJ Hawkinson, which like literally the only thing Kyler Murray can do right now is throw a seam ball to TJ Hawkinson. So like it started out as kind of like a funny ha-ha bad, and then it escalated to, this is genuinely one of the worst games that we've seen in 20 years. I was poking around at this just before we went live. The game that Wentz just played against the Buffalo Bills is bottom 10 by success rate and EPA per drop back for any game since 2007, in which a player threw at least 25 passes.

4:34Dave Helman: it's literally one of the worst games that we've ever seen.

4:38Derrik Klassen: It slowly started to dawn on me, probably leading up to halftime and certainly after halftime, that this was like the not funny sort of tragic, especially when you consider the performance that we got from the Minnesota Vikings defense. And we were talking about this in real time, Derek. You and I both agreed we were really confident that this is a good unit. Like even if they haven't played top tier competition every single week, Like we're really confident this is a great defense. You saw what they were able to do against Detroit last week and everything the Lions had to do to get past them.

5:12Derrik Klassen: A couple stats for you about this game. The Vikings held the Bills to their worst points per drive number of the season. The Bills tied for their worst EPA per play of the season. The only other game was the Chargers win where they turned the ball over five times. So the Vikings made the Bills play as poorly as if they turned the ball over five times. It was the Bills' worst offensive success rate of the season, their lowest point total of the season, I believe. I don't think the late field goal changed that. And then I had one more. Oh, they sacked Josh four times and picked him off early in the game.

5:46Derrik Klassen: This defense is a wagon. And they were able to do it against one of the most consistently good offenses and one of those guys at quarterback in a big spot. It feels like malpractice if the Vikings are content to just keep rolling this out as the season goes along. And I do think it's worth saying they were just regular bad with Kyler Murray. And when he popped up on the injury report with the hamstring problem, a lot of people reacted as if this could be a soft benching. Maybe we've seen the end of Kyler Murray. I'll even listen to you if you want to say, well, Kyler just gets the job back now and you can go back to being regular bad.

6:26Derrik Klassen: Is that good enough with what we're seeing from this Vikings defense?

6:29Dave Helman: offense you have to do something and again there is some world where you can say maybe jt like trading for jonathan taylor can fix this you can get the running game going because like they've tried to build this thing of like they're running the ball a lot this year they're bad at it and so they just it hasn't been that good obviously some of that is some of the offensive line issues that they've had um and then it puts kyler murray in more like pure it puts the any quarterback in more pure past scenarios than this offense wants to be in and they're obviously just not equipped to do that. And again, you saw with Kyler Murray, they were a bottom five offense with Kyler.

7:01Dave Helman: If it's going to be Wentz or Brosner or whoever, you are in there with the Chargers of like being the worst offense in the NFL.

7:08Derrik Klassen: I think it's easy to sit here after watching that and say, you got to get John Spitek on the phone now and trade for Kirk Cousins. You know, the reports are out that the Jets are turning down trade offers for Geno Smith. You got to sweeten the deal. You got to get a quarterback in here. I mean, that would be fun. And I'm on board with it because we have both said before this ever happened, what Kyler Murray is giving you is not enough. Yes, that is what I would like to see. But something has to give like Jonathan Taylor, maybe could elevate the floor of this thing and make Kyler Murray look that much better in the way that Jonathan Taylor made Daniel Jones look that much better last year.

7:47Derrik Klassen: I'm not not saying they're going to be the best offense in the NFL when he if he gets there. But I guess my only firm statement here is the trade deadline is Tuesday afternoon. We will be live streaming it, by the way. Come watch along with us. We'll react to everything that happens. We'll talk about some of the stuff that happened today with the Jags and everything else. You can't let the trade deadline pass and stand on what we've seen from the Vikings offense. I don't care if you do plug Kyler back into the lineup. That just feels like such a waste of one of the most fun units in the NFL this year.

8:23Dave Helman: I mean, I know it's been fluky and weird, but like they until this game were like, are you like they had had such a good season? They were obviously leading the division at certain points in the year. It started to fall away from them. This is a game where like, yeah, you just cannot allow it to happen this way because the defense. Josh Allen makes three or four insane plays in this game. By the end of the game, the Bills start to run the ball well because they've been on the field for 45 minutes.

8:48Derrik Klassen: By the way, the Bills started running the ball really well after the challenge where the Bills snuck it on four down and they spent five minutes looking at it. And you could just see the life evaporate out of the defense once they realized they weren't getting off the field.

9:03Dave Helman: The game is over by that point because, one, you realize if the Bills hold the ball here, we're just not going to have enough possessions to get it back, like even in the miraculous world where Wentz or Brosmer, whoever does something. And also by that point, like the Bills have had the ball for so long in this game. And I know that they were not super effective, but I do think there is something to the style that the Buffalo Bills play, where it is all this downhill run. And I know that this game was like three yards at a time, four yards at a time, whatever. James Cook was running hard. And these offensive linemen, even with a couple of backups in, they move people.

9:36Dave Helman: This was a very physical game. And when you're on the defensive end of that 40, 42 minutes of possession into it, it hurts, especially when you know that the quarterback on the other end is not going to help you once he gets the ball back.

9:47Derrik Klassen: Oh, man, the numbers aren't going to be flattering. And Josh did do a Josh thing and threw that touchdown on the deep post to Byron Murphy, which he's going to do that. We all know that. It's fine. He's still one of the best quarterbacks in the world. I don't care what the numbers say. There was a definite sort of beauty to the game that the Bills played. and the fight that they realized they were in. And I kind of enjoy the juxtaposition of it's a brand new state-of-the-art stadium. I think it's the nicest stadium in the NFL, in my personal opinion. Artificial turf. Josh Allen is like this modern quarterback.

10:23Derrik Klassen: It's a very modern setting and situation for a football game. And that felt like 1920s shit, you know, where it's like, we're going to run this thing 45 times. We're going to smash you in the mouth until you don't feel like getting up again. And then half a dozen times, we're going to get Josh on the move and he's going to get out to the sideline and draw the play out far enough that there's nothing you can do about it. And he's going to make a superhuman Josh Allen throw.

10:47Dave Helman: I mean, that's what it was, because for the first quarter and a half, maybe the first half of this game, the Bills were trying to run like normal offense. And they were trying to like find some stuff like they on their second drive. They had like two outside tosses that were completely useless. Next time they get the ball back, it's the end of the first quarter. They run toss again and Cashman gets a TFL. And so like they were trying to find this answer. They had nothing. Some of their under center play action stuff early in the game. They were just allowing free runners. Like there were times where, you know, Cashman's winning or Kyle Van Nooy got through on one where they're just not getting hands on guys.

11:16Dave Helman: Part of that is they've obviously, you know, the left side of their offensive line is not the guys that they want today. But Brian Flores and his defense, they're just going to do that to you. By the second half of the game, it really just became, OK, we will do three yards in a cloud of dust. And then every now and then we'll get into empty or two by two spread. and Josh is going to throw a goal ball to Ty Johnson. We'll get 40 and we'll just pray to God that we can convert the sticks on the next drive as well.

11:38Derrik Klassen: It's three yards and a cloud of pebbles. But like if you change the setting, I could just imagine this game being played in like between Princeton and Rutgers on like a muddy, empty lot. And yeah, like it very much felt like Joe Brady said, if we can get this to third and manageable, we have the white bison. So like, let's just run the ball really well and Josh will do something that only two other guys in the world can do a handful of times and we'll get out of here.

12:07Dave Helman: I mean, they had a QB designed run early in the game where they like pulled, I think it was the right tackle over and they were able to get Josh to convert because it really was one of those games where like they had to pull out that pitch and I really don't think that they like to do that very often. And so it was, I think both things are true. The Vikings defense was the better unit of the two tonight. At the same time, the Bills...

12:28Derrik Klassen: The score would tell you that that's a crazy opinion, but I think I agree with you.

12:32Dave Helman: I think the Vikings in a vacuum were the better. Their defense was the better unit in that matchup. But because of the time of possession, offense isn't helping them. Game falls away at the end. At the same time, the Bills having the resilience to find a way and Josh just making like four plays is like, it's what great offenses do. Like they find a way even in the games where they are getting hammered.

12:54Derrik Klassen: i'm gonna do a very maze thing and reference a movie that i bet you've never seen did you ever have you ever seen sin city no so it's a it's a movie based on like noir comics like you know like yeah gritty detective stuff anyway there's a part in the movie where they like try to execute this guy and he's like this tough like super humanly strong guy and he like won't die yeah and he's just like is that all you got like that was the vikings in this game where like they're just throwing the switch on the electric chair and the Vikings do not care. It doesn't matter. They went out on their shields.

13:28Derrik Klassen: And I don't know what else you can ask for them when that's what you're getting from the Minnesota offense at this point.

13:34Dave Helman: I have an immense amount of respect for the way that they played for most of this game. Like they were phenomenal. And again, I think really the only reason the Bills even put up as many points as they did being 23 is just how some of the fields that they were getting, because obviously some of the turnovers Vikings just giving them so much time to possession like I think in a vacuum the the Vikings defense was so so impressive which makes the the offense that the much because the other thing I know this sounds like cope Kyler Murray has not been good the offense what it had been with Kyler Murray like could have won this game because they wouldn't have given up like

14:08Derrik Klassen: three horrific turnovers probably wait it was great at the end of the game they put in Max Brosmer and I'm sure like the the Bills are playing off they're playing soft like I'm not going to sit here and overreact to some very basic throws but they were just on time and on target which was something Carson Wentz could not master at any point during this game and I don't know if Brosmer would have been successful going against the real deal Jim Leonard game plan but I don't know I may after watching Carson Wentz for three hours I would have liked to have seen him try at least maybe at halftime maybe after the first pick in the second half like earlier than garbage

14:45Dave Helman: time at least i also think the other frustrating thing about the wentz performance and i know he hurts his hand early but like it's carson wentz he hurts himself every single time uh that he plays football i think when first second third year quarterbacks especially guys who are backups get into a game it starts to spiral away from them they're just like where's my safety blanket i'm gonna throw it to him obviously justin jefferson on a team like this and there are definitely certain plays where regardless of coverage you should just force him the ball the amount of times where he's forcing the ball to Justin Jefferson where like it's not just that like the corner on Justin Jefferson has like a beat on him there's like a whole safety or a whole safety linebacker whatever sitting right in front of it and he throws directly at him because he's like well that's where Justin Jefferson's supposed to be and it's like you want veteran backups so that they don't just do that and so that they can find some of the shallows they can find some of the checkdowns they can find some of the other stuff and it just felt that there were a number of plays in this game where he struggled to do that Like, I jokingly asked you in the middle of the fourth quarter, how many targets do you think Justin Jefferson has?

15:46Dave Helman: And you were like three. I was like, he has eight. But if you asked how many did he have a chance at?

15:53Derrik Klassen: Probably three. So I don't know what all you can say about it. Okay. So I am curious about this. The Bills went on their bye week. And in the two weeks since their bye. And we love to say, like, get into the bye. Do some self-scouting. Do some retooling. and you very regularly see teams come out on the other side looking different. The defense is crushing through two weeks. They also played the Ravens in a game where they lost Lamar Jackson after one snap and then lost Snoop Huntley, and then you get this Carson Wentz fiasco. It's worth saying that they're playing really well. They've allowed 16 points in the last two games, and they've taken the ball away a bunch, but I don't know.

16:35Derrik Klassen: How much can I read into that, really?

16:38Dave Helman: that that is one that I need to see a little bit more of and because I think part of it too was the front definitely had its moments in this game but like that was true even when they were bad Greg Russo's been good all year yeah he's been like you know borderline all pro guy like Deion Walker's obviously had his moments Ed Oliver comes back in this game and he had a couple of moments like the play where Carson Wentz gets stepped on and almost throws the interception that's Ed Oliver pushing the guard into him so like the front can do some stuff I do think that there were moments even though it's Carson Wentz that like you saw it felt like the secondary and the back seven was a little bit more disciplined like Wentz did throw an interception where they're in the gun they're trying to do that like reverse behind the back out to the other side uh play action fake handoff Wentz like you were not inspired by that Wentz does not really sell it at all but to their credit the linebackers are both like that's not real I'm gonna get depth Terrell Bernard does pick it off Dorian Williams the other hook player like might have if Terrell Bernard did not get hands on it and so there were some amount of like these guys I think again just even though the competition was bad.

17:38Dave Helman: If you're going to face terrible competition, at least let us all remember that they are that bad of competition. And they at least acquitted themselves in that respect.

17:46Derrik Klassen: Funny thing to say, funny quirk of the schedule, but we didn't get a good opportunity to see the Bills defense for real against the Ravens or the six and one Vikings. Now they go to play the, at the two and seven jets. And assuming Geno Smith is still a jet on Sunday, It's the best opportunity we've seen to this point against the two and seven Jets. So it's not a knock on the Bills defense. It's worth saying that they've played better. I just I don't know what to read into it right now.

18:16Dave Helman: Yeah, I do think the quality of it. We'll see. I do think that there is some amount of like that is real, but like what they're trying to do with some being a little bit more getting into some of their pressure stuff. I think that they've had a long road figuring out what they want to do with the secondary. obviously you know they let cj gj go um maybe a chance that they make a move at the deadline like i know that they brandon bean let us all know that he was poking around on the jesse bates deal um maybe they go and make a deal for buddha baker that could help the secondary so like i do think what they are trying to do on defense is real whether or not that makes them any better at

18:50Derrik Klassen: playing defense i think we'll see i love the that the nfl has reached a point where it's productive to say maybe they'll do something at the deadline because for so much of my career covering the NFL it was like a prayer why are we getting worked up about a deadline day when three trades are going to get done maybe less than that some years and obviously if the Jags are any indicator plus what we've already seen with like Jeffrey Simmons I don't know I'm I'm optimistic that there's more to come between now and Tuesday at 3 p.m. I do just I know we already talked about him I just want to shout out cool shit the Vikings defense did in this game remember so we all got excited about the CFL arena play that the Lions ran where they had Amon Ross St.

19:33Derrik Klassen: Brown start in the backfield the Bills tried to do something similar in this game they tried to incorporate that where they like they faked the CFL screen and then turn around and fired it to I don't remember if it was a tight end or a receiver but I do remember that Josh Metellus just deleted that guy at the catch point yeah yeah i also remember blake cashman briefly exited this game with it looked like it like maybe a stinger situation because he like nuked the guard on the it was like a run play

20:00Dave Helman: and he just explodes the puller and like makes like a two-yard stop and then yeah he went out

20:05Derrik Klassen: for a second so the bills grind the ball all the way downfield they get to the plus six yard line and that was the story of this game like so many time consuming you know double digit play drives They get all the way down to the six yard line and third and goal from the six. Josh fires under the goalpost and Blake Cashman is back to break it up. I was like and you could see like during the drive, they were hustling to get whatever the situation was resolved. I thought it was really fun that he made a difference like the minute he got back out there.

20:35Dave Helman: He's just been insane this year. He's been a really good player for them for a long time because of the how well the defense as a whole is playing. I think it's made clear like what he's able to do as like an explosive player.

20:47Derrik Klassen: I'm sorry I'm putting you on the spot, but I bet you can answer. Fred Warner's in an all pro slot right now. He's, yes, it's not close. Is Cashman the other one?

20:59Dave Helman: Yeah, I mean, probably like I, there are a couple of guys. I feel like I have more guys where I feel good about saying that they are. They're like in the conversation. Yeah, I actually, give me one second. I do have like a running all pro list for the season. I might have Cashman on there right now. Yes, I do. My all-pro currently right now would be Fred Warner and Blake Cashman. Second-team all-pro is Greg Greenlaw to me. But that speaks more to the Niners. But, yeah, I do think Cashman, what he's been able to do has been incredible.

21:27Derrik Klassen: He's been incredible. Eric Wilson had a big TFL in this game. Oh, Ivan Pace. Like, Deke and Deion Dawkins did not play. You already mentioned Deion Dawkins and Alec Anderson both did not play in this game. So, I know it was Tylan Grable. but I've been paced like deked Tylan Grable for a sack. I just, there's so many fun role players on this team on this defense. In addition to the guys who are playing like all literal guys playing like literal. And like,

21:55Dave Helman: he might not make an all pro, but like Dallas Turner, like open to this game with another sack. Like they're, their guys are playing out of their mind right now. All right,

22:02Derrik Klassen: before we finish up, let's take a quick break. We're halfway through the NFL season and the NBA season is also in full swing. Our friends at the athletic live are coming to you five days a week with watch parties, special guests, and more, whether it's the NFL or NBA, you can become part of the show in the interactive chat. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini. Check it out now and subscribe on YouTube. Football season has arrived, and with the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa signature card, you earn an unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase, including at the stadium or at home watching on a brand new TV.

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26:18Derrik Klassen: Weird special team stuff in this game. Lloyd Cushenberry had a false start that pushed the Bills out of field goal range on the field goal team. Greg Dortch returned the opening kick 58 yards to like, it was like, oh, the, what can, the Bills are in control. And they immediately lost their mind and like false started and got themselves sacked out of field goal range after a 58 yard kick return. That was the most, like, we weren't ready to be at midfield situation in, in this environment against this. They were just It's like, oh, shit got real. Oh, no. Yeah. That's like the way that the way the game that series, I was like, ooh.

26:56Dave Helman: I thought that. But they kind of did. Like the Vikings did get on them for this game, if not for how bad the offense was screwing them on the other side. Last special teams thing, Ty Felton made a crazy play to make that the Vikings had a punt and he stops it at the one. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was an awesome play.

27:11Derrik Klassen: We love a good punt down. Yeah. There was some good special team stuff in this game. I don't know how much any of this means unless the Minnesota Vikings can do something to tangibly

27:22Dave Helman: improve their offense yeah and like Geno Smith thing that does seem off the table like I think because I think the difference to me with the Geno and the Kirk thing one obviously Kirk Cousins has already played for Minnesota and that helps I think that is like better for them in some cases the Raiders can also just turn to the first overall pick the Jets if they give up Geno

27:41Derrik Klassen: it's like Cade Klubnick who was like yeah I do that fine in the preseason I think that's worth bringing up is that it's easy for us to wish cast and fantasy trade guys and say what you will about Aaron Glenn and I don't know how much longer he's going to be the head coach of the New York Jets but you do have to get buy-in from 60 guys in the locker room who have nothing to do with that and have to buy in every single week to go out and compete and strive and hope to win football games and dealing the quarterback at the halfway point of a season that's not that's already not going well i understand why the jets would be reluctant to do that even if i do want to watch geno smith on the vikings and on the flip side there probably is some amount of if you're the raiders of like

28:24Dave Helman: man we're like four and five we're gonna really trade our starting quarterback who's playing really well but like guys knew guys went into this season knowing the game of like fernando's going to be the quarterback yeah whether it's it's today or tomorrow like he's going to be the

28:36Derrik Klassen: quarterback kirk signed there in april yes everyone knows that happened but you know the game when you're in that position. And that's, I mean, we talked about it a week ago, but if I were the Raiders, especially now, like now that the Vikings have been forced to confront their football mortality in such a visible way, if I was John Spitek, I'll do another old movie reference, like Jerry Maguire, show me the money. I would just be on the phone like, throw in something else. Throw in another pick. Give me something else because I know how bad it is over there. Bump it up every 30 minutes you get closer to the deadline absolutely because to your point like there's really in my opinion it would be nice to get something for kirk cousins considering that fernando is the future but you made this bed this was your plan they were the ones that said we could play kirk all year long they've got six of their seven picks in next year's draft they have all the big picks like if if the vikings are like oh we'll give you like a five and a six like does that move the needle for you when you already have Fernando Mendoza waiting in the wings?

29:40Derrik Klassen: Be like, no, give me, I want, bare minimum, I want a top 100 pick. I would gun for a two, but it damn well at least better be a three, because I'm sitting pretty over here.

29:50Dave Helman: I do think, too, when you it's kind of like what you said at the very top of the show, and we can kind of end with that. When you see the Vikings defense do this to the MVP, an MVP of the league, a guy who, like, might win it again this year if things go well for them, to play the way that they did against that team, it would kind of be malpractice not to do something. Whether or not that's a quarterback, running back, whatever, you have to make a move and go try to win it.

30:14Derrik Klassen: I feel for Nolan Teasley a little bit. He's the new Minnesota GM.

30:17Dave Helman: Maybe that's why they wouldn't, but still.

30:19Derrik Klassen: But, okay, I feel for him a little bit because he just got here, and I'm telling him you got to do something, but that's the point of this thing, and you've seen this defense every single week. I know Brian Flores has been able to recreate this several years now, but you don't know how long this stuff is going to last. We've talked about it with the Texans this year, where you can't take that. You can't take this stuff for granted. And on top of that, you probably have KOC breathing down your neck. Like, Hey, I don't have the job security that you have. We doing something on Tuesday or what? I feel like it needs to happen.

30:53Derrik Klassen: It doesn't necessarily have to be a quarterback, but we we've seen enough to know that this offense ain't it. And by the way, you play in the, now we can officially say like historically, great NFC North. You're not like, sorry, you don't play in the NFC South or East where you can squeak into the playoffs with a nine and eight record. That ain't going to be good enough.

31:14Dave Helman: If you were in the South and you could just around to 10 wins and like win it. I still think that that's probably not a great way to approach it because you still want to get into the dance and do something. But if you just allow this to go on, like you will just become fourth in this division. The rest of the division is insane.

31:30Derrik Klassen: The Vikings were in first place when the weekend started and they're in third now having fallen to six and two i'll go as far i take this defense very seriously and i love them very much i can't take this team seriously without doing something to make this offense better that's why we never put them at the table and never felt really overly conflicted about it by the way and that does not change after a memorable carson wins performance in all the wrong ways i think that's that's probably enough for this one that's all i've got fun though really appreciate it we got a loaded week coming for y 'all by the way this is i know it's the end of week nine but it's just the beginning of the week we got like i said we got a trade deadline live stream we'll be live on tuesday afternoon covering everything that has happened everything that will happen got our usual weekly preview content coming later in the week we'll be live on thursday night for giants commanders and on and on and on and on because we're only at the halfway point of the season.

32:30Derrik Klassen: There's so much more still to come, Derek. We're about done with the international stretch, so that's okay. I keep saying that. One more early game, buddy. You'll be okay. All right. We appreciate it. We will talk to you all really soon. Until next time, thanks. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

33:27We'll see you next time.

33:34We'll see you next time.

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