2025 AFC North preview

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0:31Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is the AFC North preview. And we're going to get to that in a second with me, Dave Hellman and Derek Klassen. But about one minute after we finished recording this show, news came across the timeline from Ian Rappaport from NFL media. Micah Parsons traded to the Green Bay Packers for years,$188 million. dollars. If you're doing the math at home, that is$47 million a year for Micah Parsons passes the APY for Patrick Mahomes as part of this deal. We still don't have the draft pick compensation that's being sent back to the Dallas Cowboys, whether it's a handful of picks, whether it includes a player, we do not know.

1:19Robert Mays: We've talked about this a lot with the Packers over the course of this off season, really over the last couple of years, a lot of good players. Who are the needle movers on the Packers? Well, I would consider Micah Parsons a needle mover. This is a massive swing for a Green Bay team that I think understood it probably needed to do something to get over the top. And instead of just relying on a little bit of development from those young pass rushers, they decided to cut this problem off at the pass. Very curious to see what they gave up to do it. Very curious to see what this means for Dallas. I mean, this really does feel like a reset moment for the Cowboys because of this.

1:56Robert Mays: The Cowboys edge room is actually probably the deepest part of their entire roster. You look at the guys they have there, Sam Williams, Marshawn Nealon, drafted Donovan Azaraku in the second round, Dante Fowler is back there now. They can withstand this, but I do think this changes the single season outlook for the Cowboys. They're going to have a ton of draft picks, I'm guessing, coming back in this sort of deal. So really a seismic move here on the Thursday before Labor Day weekend. And it reminds me a little bit of the Cleo Mack trade like that. That's probably the best comparison in recent years for what this feels like.

2:27Robert Mays: I think that the Packers are situated a little bit better to get the most out of this deal, considering the rest of their roster compared to where the bears were when they made that Cleo Mack deal. So we'll have plenty of more thoughts on this over the next week or so, as we get more information about what the trade package looks like. But for now, who boy, that was a hell of a surprise to wake up to after we finished recording this show. AFC North preview is our eighth and final division preview. We sincerely appreciate everybody who stuck around for these 16 hours or so that we've done with these.

3:00Robert Mays: I think by the end, we finally got the hang of how to do it just in time to be finished with them. Really enjoyed this conversation with Dave and Derek. Let's get to the AFC North preview right now.

3:14Robert Mays: We made it to the end of the road. It is the AFC North preview on the athletic football show. our eighth and final division preview. Dave, I appreciate you plowing through all these. This is your first go around with the division previews. And you've been an absolute trooper here.

3:30Derrik Klassen: It's like training camp, man. You know, you do two days, four days in a row, one day off for like a month. And by the time the season gets here, it's going to feel easy. It's great. It's the perfect way to get ready.

3:40Robert Mays: It's the ramp up period. That's what these two weeks are on the athletic football show. Derek, this is old hat for you now. You're used to all this. Yeah. I mean, it's only year two, but when you get really thrown into the fire, year one with doing these two hour previews, you kind of get used to it. So now this is like, this is just what it is. This is just what, this is just what the end of August feels like. So I'm, I'm happy to have done it again. It's a lot. It's 16 hours of content over a two week period. And we pour a lot into them because I just love doing them. I think it's a great way to kind of set yourself up for the season.

4:09Robert Mays: For me, I like it as an outlet for all of the travel that I did during training camp, being able to kind of download a lot of those conversations into this, but it is a lot. And it's not only a lot for you, for, for us, for the listeners, it's a lot for the people behind the scenes. And I just want to thank everybody for all of the work done on these over the last couple of weeks, because it is no small feat. Our video producer, Michael Iob, Alice divine and Megan Orpik, both of whom handled the thumbnails for our YouTube channel. And if you have not seen this, we have individual videos, like 25 to 30 ish minute videos for all 32 of these teams that will be released on our YouTube channel, probably by the end of today.

4:45Robert Mays: If you're listening to this on Friday, So if you have not seen any of these Labor Day weekend is a great time for you to go catch up on all of it. And the last person I wanted to thank Danielle Lehman, who tied it, tied it all together for us on the video side, on the audio side. And obviously Michael Beller, our social guy, Scott Crenshaw, like just the amount of pure work that has been done on these over the last couple of weeks. It means a lot. Everyone really pouring themselves into it and giving everything they have to make all this work. So appreciate that and appreciate all of you guys for sticking with us through these.

5:15Robert Mays: Hopefully, if you missed any of them, you will have some time over the course of this weekend to catch up a little bit. So let's dig into the AFC North preview and let's kick things off with the Baltimore Ravens. The Ravens offseason in 60 seconds. Extended Kyle Hamilton, four years, 100 million. Retained Kyle, that happened like yesterday. Retained Ronnie Stanley, three years, 60 million. Extended Derrick Henry, three years, 30 million with 25 guaranteed. Smaller deals for Jair Alexander, DeAndre Hopkins, Cooper Rush, Joe Nopu and Patrick Ricard. Pick Malachi Starks in the first round edge. My green in the second round offensive guard slash tackle Emery Jones in the third round linebacker, Teddy Buchanan in the fourth round, 129th overall lost Patrick McCurry, Brandon Stevens, Emily Harrison in free agency.

6:01Robert Mays: Derek, what are you excited to watch with the 2025 Baltimore Ravens? I have a feeling. I know where you're going to go with this. Lamar Jackson's going to do it again, man. Three years in a row where he's going to be an MVP candidate. And like, Like there's no reason for me to believe that that's not going to happen. And it's for a couple of reasons. One, we already saw Lamar Jackson obviously being MVP the first year that he was a starter. But that was a very different player. And I think over the last two years, he has become like his ability to manage pre-snap, his ability to handle protections, his ability to beat the blitz.

6:30Like he has become all of the stuff that we ascribe to like the Tom Brady's and Drew Brees of the world on top of like, oh, he's also the best athlete out there. so like he has truly become this very very special uh combination of different skill sets and players and also he was in the mvp race last year and they've brought back like effectively all of the same players it's the same ensemble that he proved that he could do this with again like i just barring some sort of catastrophe around him he's gonna be in the mvp race again

6:58Robert Mays: if the only real criticism of mar Jackson's season last year is him blacking out for two plays during the divisional round. Yeah, that's it. Like that's really it. And you know, that's still not good. And we still need to see them do it in the playoffs. And we'll talk all about that over the course of this preview, Dave, but the ratio of what we can criticize Lamar Jackson for and what he still needs to prove to us, the pie chart, there's like a tiny little sliver left. And even compared to two years ago, when he won the MVP, Derek, you and I have talked about this a lot. You could still get after him.

7:29Robert Mays: If you heated him up, even in that 2023 season, we saw of teams try to do it to him in the playoffs. You know, the Texans tried to do it to him. And last year, his performance against the blitz, that was really the last box to check for me with him as a regular season player. Now it's really just those couple plays and eliminating them in the playoffs before we get Lamar Jackson unassailable at pretty much every level of this game.

7:52Derrik Klassen: I also just think when I look at the Ravens and obviously Lamar's the headliner, he should be, he's going to be in the MVP conversation once again this year. But when I was looking at the Ravens depth chart, and at this point in this process for us, I think I see our lads.com in my sleep right now. And I was, I was looking at their depth chart and okay. If you're an Eagles fan or a lions fan, maybe you can argue with me about the sheer star power, but looking over the Ravens roster, Like, I think this is the deepest, most complete team in the NFL. Like, sure. Maybe they're lacking an all pro caliber player or two.

8:33Derrik Klassen: Like I'm thinking about the Eagles right now. Maybe their, their ceiling at receiver isn't as high as the Eagles, but one through three, you got great depth. You bring your whole offensive line back. In addition to drafting a couple of guys who could potentially help you this year, you get a veteran swing tackle. They got one of the deepest running back rooms in the league. Yeah. not it. Maybe it's not as star studded as like Detroit with Montgomery and Jameer Gibbs, but having justice Hill and getting Keaton Mitchell, who looks very healthy back behind Derek Henry, that's great. And it goes all the way through the defense as well, where you drafted big time in the secondary, you signed some veterans at cornerback, like they're just incredibly solid and you have to quibble to find something that looks like a real question mark.

9:19Derrik Klassen: So So even if it's not as star studded, I certainly think this is, if it's not the best roster in football, it's on a very short list.

9:27Robert Mays: I think it might be the roster with the fewest obvious holes or fewest obvious question marks. Cause I think you, like you said, even the Eagles, like that cornerback two spot is going to be a question. We'll see what happens. You're putting a rookie in at that other safety spot. Who's a second round pick and Malachi Stark's just a better prospect than Andrew Makuba is. Right. And so I just think there are fewer question marks with this team. When you're nitpicking on the Ravens roster concerns, it's like, they don't have a third safety that will allow Kyle Hamilton to play closer to the line of scrimmage.

9:53Robert Mays: Like we're having to dig pretty deep to find issues with how this team is constructed. And even that was because of injury.

9:58Derrik Klassen: I was going to say, even that's just bad luck because you were supposed to have our Darius Washington. Yeah. And I think this to me is like interesting with the offense because we've talked about before, Robert, when you have the flamethrowing quarterback, the Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, when you have one of these three, you don't necessarily need the other stars on the offense. You just need to make sure everyone else is OK. And they go they go down to like OK quality, like three deep into all their skill players and offensive line stuff like there. It's hard to see what like the worst case scenario for this even is.

10:28Robert Mays: And why I think that we've kind of gotten to this place with Lamar Jackson is that the rest of the offense has been constructed in such a way that I think has helped propel him to this point. And you look at what the Ravens offense was last year. To me, it was like the perfect marriage of this weird, wonky, hard to prepare for offense that they had been under Greg Roman because of all of the personnel layers that they have, plus all of the answers that have been built into what the Todd Monken version of this looks like. So last year they played 28 percent, 11 personnel. That was dead last in the league, and it was down from 47 percent the previous year.

11:00Robert Mays: And so you're having to prepare for this weird version of 12 where maybe it's Mark Anderson likely. So that's kind of like 11 and a half. Maybe it's Charlie Kohler sometimes. And then they have these 21 personnel looks where Patrick Ricard is kind of a fullback and kind of a tight end. And then sometimes it's 22 because Ricard's out there, but is that kind of like actually 13 and all of these things that they're doing make it harder on the defense. And they're phenomenal in these personnel groupings last year out of 12 personnel, they averaged 7.7 yards per play with a 50 % success rate. It's obnoxious and they do it in all of these different ways that the 12 personnel grouping with Andrews and Likely is so fascinating to me because that's probably your best four pass catchers on the field together, independent of what positions they play.

11:46Robert Mays: But then you look at the run game and the way it's designed out of those looks, and it's unlike anything in the NFL. So last year, against 12 personnel looks, the Ravens saw more light boxes than any team in football, according to next-gen stats. 57.5 % of runs out of 12 personnel. That seems counterintuitive because they're such a good running team. But the reason for that is that they're 12 personnel with Andrews and Likely on the field is really spread out. And so their boxes on offense are really light. They were the only team in the NFL out of 12 personnel looks last year. Their average offensive box was fewer than six players.

12:19Robert Mays: So they're actually at a numbers disadvantage even against the lightest boxes in the league. But because Lamar changes the number count in the run game and because of what they do to weaponize that space, misdirection with jet motion with the receivers, likely slicing back across the formation, they're dominant in those looks. So there's really just so many different things they're doing that are different than what other teams are doing. And when you filter that through a guy who has totally reached a different level as a player at quarterback and an otherwise really good roster, you end up with the Ravens offense that we saw a year ago.

12:53Robert Mays: Like, it's truly just a joy inducing thing for me to think about. And I cannot wait to watch it again. the the personnel thing is so interesting because most teams when we think of like 12 personnel bully ball it's just by virtue of like we're just going to kick the shit out of you with some of our players and they can do that but they're more like you said they spread out and it's just like well if we have these two big tight ends on the field and our running back is 250 pound derrick henry we're just going to create all of these one-on-one scenarios where we're bigger than you and we're just going to win and that's i think part of why derrick henry was going from what he was at the end of tennessee where he's just running into brick walls you know and stuff like that whereas he gets a lot more space to operate with here.

13:29And I think that's why he's been as good as he has. And I still I want to harp on for the millionth time. Lamar Jackson with Derek Henry is the most ridiculous pairing of runners together in a backfield that we've ever seen in the sport. Like, it doesn't make sense that they get to play together. And so the fact that they've done that on top of how Monkins put it together, it's just like it's a special unit.

13:50Derrik Klassen: The Ravens would be really good if they didn't have players that could uniquely manipulate every defense they play. But they do have that. And that's very fun for us and very scary for teams that have to play them.

14:03Robert Mays: The last number I'll throw out there, they averaged 6.6 yards per carry with a 50 % success rate out of 12 personnel last year. And I think that's exactly the right point about Derrick Henry is that that's what they were excited about heading into last season. It's like this is going to be the first time in forever when he has actual space to work. And when you get him with a head of steam and he's up to the second level, it's over. And we just didn't get to see a lot of that near the end in Tennessee because of how that offense was constructed. And so Dave, you said this about another team. Oh, I think it was maybe the Cardinals yesterday, but this is one of those moments where it really is lovely when a plan comes together.

14:37Robert Mays: And that is exactly the story of the 2023 Ravens. And I expect to see them continue at least some version of that into this year. Let's talk about the swing points on the 2025 Baltimore Ravens. Dave, what do you got for me?

14:50Derrik Klassen: we just gave this very lovely opening spiel about how good the Ravens offense is and how unique they are and all the different ways they can manipulate things and win so I don't know if this is going to sound like uh if I'm nitpicking or quibbling or what but heading into year three I'd like to see how much more meat is on the bone for Zay Flowers who is a good receiver but I don't think it's harsh criticism to say that the Ravens don't have like that true difference making wide receiver in the offense. I think it's worth mentioning. I think it goes unnoticed by a lot of people that Zay Flowers wasn't there in the playoffs.

15:33Derrik Klassen: Maybe, maybe that's enough to lift them last season, but even still, I think there's room for Zay Flowers to grow as a player. I was digging through the stats while we were getting ready for this show. You guys realize that Zay Flowers had a 27 % target share last year, which is 13th in the NFL. Like he's right behind Brock Bowers and he's right in company with Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, Amin Ross St. Brown in terms of how much Lamar was targeting him last year. But does it feel that way to you? Because it doesn't to me.

16:11Robert Mays: and also is that when he's on the field or is that overall like team target share I'd be curious about that I believe that's team target share it feels high I wonder if that's just because they're not throwing the ball quite as much as some of these other teams and that's why the volume stats I think that's part of it and also a lot of his touches are like they do a lot of the jet stuff to him which is technically a pass but when you watch it does not feel like a pass so

16:35Derrik Klassen: might be part of like the to your point Robert Lamar Jackson attempted fewer passes than basically any franchise quarterback except Jalen Hurts like the only guys who attempted fewer passes than Lamar were the guys that missed a significant amount of playing time like at least two or three games so yeah it is hard when you're playing in an offense like that so that's why I wanted to go and look at the rest of the picture with Zay Flowers and a stat that jumped out to me he finished 86 six receiving yards over expectation on the year, which is just, it is a low, low number. Like, I just feel like the receivers in this offense in general, and definitely Zay flowers are really good at getting what's there.

17:18Derrik Klassen: And obviously there's a lot there, Robert, you just alluded to a lot of it. Zay flowers had almost four yards of separation on his targets last year, which was sixth best in the league. And funnily enough, Rashad Bateman finished ninth in the league. The Ravens had two receivers in the top 10 of the most separation per target. I don't think that's surprising anybody, but to finish with so few yards over expectation to me, when it's that easy for you, I think that's very curious. And so I would just like to see maybe a more efficient, say flowers, maybe as a flowers who makes more contested plays.

17:53Derrik Klassen: He had five catches in tight windows last year, just like, like it, if it's there for you and it's easy. Zay Flowers can do it, but I do think potentially there's room for him to grow into a more dangerous receiver. And it's only, it's only year three. I don't think Zay Flowers is in his final form as a player, but it could be really fun for this offense. If he takes another step from what's already a pretty good receiver, the potentially good news is that Zay Flowers knows what his problem is, which is that he keeps running backwards when he gets the ball, which is why his, I think his probably expected yards gained is not as good.

18:28Like there are just so many times last year where he catches the ball like two yards short of the sticks and tries to be a hero and just doesn't end up getting to the sticks but he had he posted a video earlier this offseason where he like kind of said that he was going to stop doing that shit so if he does i think that alone might you know bridge the gap of like getting zay flowers to go from like pretty good player to like okay this guy's a very serious contributor for what should be a super bowl team

18:53Robert Mays: my theory about why that number might be a little bit low when it comes to receiving yards over expectation is it's similar to why there were stretches where the dolphins didn't have a lot of yak when you're throwing the ball down the field as much as you are on like vertical throws, right? If you're running a lot of like vertical stem outside the numbers routes or like these big in breakers over the middle, 20 yards down the field, you're not getting a lot of yak. Like the vertical shots are not conducive to that. And that is in my opinion, where Zay Flowers is best. Like when he can eat up space as a vertical receiver, either on like deeper in cuts or those outside the numbers routes.

19:24Robert Mays: That's where I think he's best. I think that there is just never going to be a level of physicality to his game that is necessary for a player that size. Like the guys who are able to really thrive and become like true number ones at that size, there's something superhero-ish about one aspect of their game. Like Tyreek just is built in a way that very few smaller receivers are built in how strong he is and obviously the speed. And then with Antonio Brown, it was that contested catch stuff as a smaller receiver. Like what Antonio Brown could do down the field and contested situations for somebody who was like five 11 was just rare.

19:58Robert Mays: And so I think Zay flowers is kind of a victim of the normal limitations we have on small receivers. And I just don't know how much of that goes away as he gets a little bit deeper into his career. And that worries me a little bit, because if we're not going to have a better version of any of those guys, is there going to be a little bit of regression in some areas of this offense? If everyone kind of stays the same, but I, so I understand why you're asking. I just, for me, I wonder what that actually looks like.

20:25Derrik Klassen: I'll be interested to watch because he did like, he had a healthy amount of yak and he had a healthy amount of yak over expectation as well. Like if you get him the ball in space, obviously he's a fast shifty guy. He can do stuff with it, but that doesn't jive with yards over expectation just in general. So I don't know. I, I confused myself a little bit when I was looking deeper into Zay Flowers and I just, I want, I mean, it's a very good point about him being a smaller receiver. And I do think that comes with natural limitations, but if he can level up some aspect of his game, particularly when it's not always wide open with four yards of separation, maybe, maybe there's something there.

21:09Derrik Klassen: I don't know how much more, but again, for a guy that's only going into year three, I'm at least interested to watch and see if it can be slightly better.

21:17Robert Mays: I, to be clear, I love Zay Flowers. I want, I want that on the record. I absolutely love Zay Flowers. I'm not a sizeist like Derek. I'm actually okay with what smaller receivers are. And he's one of my favorite players in the league to watch. I just think that they're probably going to be some inherent limitations. Derek, what was your swing point for the 2025 Ravens? An area where you think this season might pivot for this team? I just think like, to me, it's the secondary and I have no doubts that they're going to be a good secondary, but can they be like a special secondary is the difference to me obviously Kyle Hamilton is to me the best safety in the league Marlon Humphrey is still a fantastic player especially the more that he gets to play from the nickel I think that that is true so to me it's just like can Nate Wiggins go from like pretty good rookie season we like this guy to okay this is like a serious can just man up with anybody play that style of corner can he be that and then can Malachi Starks be like a real difference maker at safety because I think a lot of the guys they've put next to Kyle Hamilton at safety have been nice role players.

22:14But I think if Malachi Starks can be some level above that, I think that would go a really long way for this defense. And I've liked what I saw from Malachi Starks in the preseason. Like he can play in the box, he can play in the post, like he can do a lot of things for them. So I'm pretty bullish on it, but I do want to see it first because it's a couple of young pieces.

22:31Robert Mays: Mine is kind of an extension of that. To me, it's like the spine of the defense in general. Like I feel pretty good about the corner situation. I do think Nate Wiggins is going to take a step this year. I think with having Jair Alexander and Jadobia Wuse in that third other outside cornerback spot, they'll at least have somebody serviceable there for the rest of the year. To me, it's the third safety spot and the lack of it and how it affects what you can do with Kyle Hamilton and the flexibility you have on defense. That guy just isn't here right now. After losing our Darius Washington, they're not going to have that sort of flexibility.

23:00Robert Mays: So what does that do to the defense overall? And then kind of the linebacker spot within the spine. What do we get from Trenton Simpson this year as they rely on him even more? And some of those two linebacker looks that we're going to see and Roquan Smith bounced back in the second half of last year, but there was a stretch last season where we saw some of his roughest play in a while and they need him to be a superstar for this to all come together. So are we going to see something closer to what we saw when kind of things evened out last year? Or are we going to see a continuation of maybe some of his rougher moments from last year?

23:31Robert Mays: because I do think that the defense, Derek, could go one way or another based on what version of him we get for 17 games. I mean, it could because almost in the way that, you know, the the old Rams Staley defense like pivoted off of two field tilting players in Jalen Ramsey and Aaron Donald. That's kind of what the Ravens were doing when Mike McDonald was there with Roquan Smith and Kyle Hamilton and what they were able to do and like have this cascading effect around the rest of the defense. Well, if Roquan Smith is only playing at 85 % of whatever his highest quality is, that's a good player, but that's not necessarily field tilting in the way that he was before.

24:04So he does need to play at a very high level again.

24:07Robert Mays: I do think that year two of Zach Gore is the defensive coordinator. He learned some lessons last year. And sometimes when you are going into another year of the same system, quote unquote, because he was obviously there before, you're trying to add different layers and flexibility into that system. And I do think there are a lot of like formational checks and certain things where we're trying to get in the exact right play all the time based on what the offense was doing. And I do think early in the year that was weighing guys down a little bit. The way that I understand it is they've streamlined a lot of how they're teaching the defense in order to kind of take that mental weight off of a lot of these guys and be combined with what they got from Kyle Hamilton at that deep safety spot in the back half of the year.

24:48Robert Mays: That was one of the reasons that the defense settled down a little bit. throw in the fact that they didn't play a lot of good offenses in the second half of last year. So this is one more important bit of context for what those defensive numbers look like when they were the best defense in the league. But I do think that personnel wise and with or coming into year two, they brought in some new voices coaching wise. Chuck Pagano was there in the back end. So I just think that overall, this group is much more settled now heading into year two than it was heading into year one was Zach or last year when such a huge portion of that defensive staff left.

25:19Derrik Klassen: that's a point I meant to make at the top too is you don't have the coaching turnover this year which is always going to be a thing I mean you get a remarkable amount of continuity for a team that had an MVP caliber player and made a playoff run and all that good stuff

25:34Robert Mays: what's keeping you up at night Derek about the 2025 Baltimore Ravens there's nothing about this roster that makes me think they won't be a top five team in the NFL which leads me to believe that just like what if it happens again in the divisional round where they're just not good enough because I I'm confident they are good enough to get there again but how many years have we said that about this team and how many different times have we said that about the Lamar Jackson led Ravens and I'm not again this is not me saying like there's something inherent to the way that they're built that they can't do this it's just that like I don't want to do this again where in week 14 I'm like this is clearly the best team in the NFL and then four weeks later, they just lose some game to Buffalo that they're not supposed to lose.

26:17Like, I just, I don't want to see it again.

26:19Robert Mays: It's one of the frustrating parts about this team, Dave, is that we can get excited about them in the regular season. Lamar Jackson Quinn, like another f***ing MVP award and none of it matters. Like nothing they do before January 1st matters. And that's a tough place to be. It's a tough place to be when you're talking about them. It's a tough place to be when you're a fan of this team, but that is exactly the situation that the Ravens have found themselves in.

26:40Derrik Klassen: I wonder if it's a tough place to be as a member of the organization and like publicly. I think Marlon Humphrey has talked about like, dude, like there's nothing we need to do. We just have to play better. Like, that's it. Like, we just have to play better. And that's a hard pill. It's a maddening place to be.

26:56Robert Mays: And that's how I felt rewatching the game today. Like the first interception, I was like, Lamar, we lost your mind. Like he just said he lost his mind twice in that game. And it's just you don't do that. And everything changes. And I don't know how to say, well, just don't do that anymore. But that's kind of where we are.

27:13Derrik Klassen: It sucks too. Cause they really have checked every box. Like I'm thinking about the bills right now and the bills are in a similar spot, but if you're a bills fan, maybe you can at least say like, well, we've never had the one seed. We've never gotten the buy and we've never had to, you know, nobody's had to definitely come to Buffalo. We've had home field advantage all the way through the Ravens have done it all. They've, they've been the one seed. They've been to the AFC title game. Lamar's won the MVP twice, as a matter of fact, like, yeah, I, there's nothing this team can do during the regular season to prove that it's different than any of the others.

27:47Derrik Klassen: And I would hate to be in that spot. I really would. Cause I, and I will say this though, I hope don't let that take the joy out of it for you because this is still an incredibly fun team to watch, but at the end of the day, they're going to be measured by January. And that's just the bottom line.

28:04Robert Mays: I think it's easier for us not to have the joy sucked out because for us, the end result can't be that devastating, right? We actually get to enjoy the ride because we can't just get totally destroyed by how it ends. You can be a little bit disappointed for Lamar, but you're not a Ravens fan who's like living and dying with that moment. So this, this is easy.

28:21Derrik Klassen: It's easy for me to say as a non Ravens fan, but when your team is capable of doing magical shit like this, just buckle in, just, just accept it wholeheartedly. don't try to don't try to pretend like you're not going to be devastated if it happens again just buckle up and enjoy the ride and hopefully the ending is better than it has been

28:43Robert Mays: mine is kind of similar to this we don't spend a ton of time on it but what's keeping me up at night is did they already lose their best chance have we already seen their best chance to make this happen they had the number one defense in the league two years ago they had the number one offense in the league last year and last season i believe looking at the ftn numbers i'm pretty sure they finished number one on offense and defense in adjusted games lost last year. That's just not going to happen again. And so it really does feel like the way that the last couple of seasons have been set up, you had the number one defense in the league and an MVP quarterback in 2023.

29:15Robert Mays: And then you had a historically good offense last season. What does that look like for your third go around? And so that's what I'm keeping an eye on. Like, is there just a chance that we have seen this team's best opportunity to get this over the finish line. And that absolutely would be keeping me up at night. Let's talk about what we're watching the first month of the season for the Ravens. I'll kick this off. We don't have, I mean, there aren't a lot of things, again, not a lot of swing points, not a lot of things that are keeping us up at night with Baltimore. I just want to see what we get out of the rookies.

29:45Robert Mays: You mentioned Derek Malachi Starks, like how good is Malachi Starks from day one? And then, you know, there's a reason Mike Green fell to the second round of the draft, but Mike Green is a very talented pass rusher. they've needed like one more edge rusher in the mix here. What do they get out of Mike green? And then Dave, there was one more guy you wanted to throw into this, which I protest, but I could understand why we need to talk about him.

30:05Derrik Klassen: The only other team I brought up special teams for was the bills. So I think it's fitting that we bring it up for the Ravens. They have a rookie kicker. Justin Tucker was not great last year anyway. And obviously he's not on the team for reasons also. So I don't know how much people miss Justin Tucker, but you still got a rookie kicking for a team with a Superbowl aspirations. Tyler loop. He was nine of 11 in the preseason. Perfect on extra points. His misses were from 46 and 50. I don't know. That's, that's all I got to go on. But like I said, I think you weren't doing a lot of deep Tyler loop scouting in college.

30:44Derrik Klassen: No, I'm not looking at Tyler loops approach in cold weather. I'm sorry. I'm not that detail oriented, but look, it's, I mean, like I said, Justin Tucker was not good last year, but this is the type of team where a rookie making a high pressure kick against some of these teams. And in some of these situations could be a scary proposition. I am, I'm thinking about Evan McPherson and how good he was as a rookie for the Bengals. So it's totally possible. He could be awesome, but it would make me a little bit nervous if I knew going into the season that the Ravens were going to be playing in some big time games.

31:17Robert Mays: I'm also keeping a very small, I'll give you$100 if you can tell me where Tyler Loop went to college. Oh, shit. I'm just going to say like Western Kentucky or something. I don't know. It's Arizona. Oh, nope.

31:31Derrik Klassen: Did you know that, Dave? I'm not bullshitting you. I was going to say Western Kentucky. I don't know why. It just feels like if someone is asking me that question, it's going to be something like Western Kentucky.

31:46Robert Mays: Derek, what are you watching in the first month of the season for the Ravens? I just the only thing they've really done to this offense is to add DeAndre Hopkins, who like if they didn't would still be a top five offense anyway. So I'm just kind of curious, like what does he add for them? Because I think we like Rashad Bateman as kind of like a one on one separator. Obviously, Zay Flowers is a little bit of your stretch guy, horizontal and vertical. Can DeAndre Hopkins just be like enough of an extra little chain mover for them? Like if he just gives them a little bit more than that, that they've gotten from their other tertiary receivers, that could go a long way for, for staving off whatever regression, especially injury wise might come for this team.

32:23Robert Mays: What is success for the 2025 Baltimore Ravens when the whole thing. Yeah, you got to do it, man. I, like I said, I'm tired of seeing this team not do it. And at this stage, when you have been, I think over the past two years in the regular season, you can make the case that the Ravens were the best team in football. and they like have probably it would be my bet to be that team again this year. You've got to win it, man. Like you just have to do it.

32:48Derrik Klassen: Cue the soundbite for Major League.

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37:21Robert Mays: our 2025 preview for the pittsburgh steelers they're off season in 60 seconds sign aaron rogers one year 13 and a half million getting that daniel jones money extended tj watt three years 123 million 108 million dollars guaranteed traded for an extended dk metcalf four years 132 million with 60 guaranteed acquired Jalen Ramsey and John Smith in a trade from the Dolphins that included Mink Fitzpatrick signed Darius Slay one year 10 million small deals from Malik Harrison Mason Rudolph Juan Thornhill and Robert Woods in the draft took Derek Harmon 21st overall Caleb Johnson in the third round and edge Jack Sawyer from Ohio State in the fourth round losses traded George Pickens to the Cowboys for a third round pick that aforementioned Mink Fitzpatrick trade Dan Moore in free agency Justin Fields in free agency Russell Wilson James Daniels Dante Jackson and Najee Harris.

38:08Robert Mays: Dave, what are you excited to watch with the 2025 Pittsburgh Steelers?

38:13Derrik Klassen: I feel like you guys are going to roll your eyes at me, but that's okay. Like all bullshit aside, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that this is going to go great, but I was in college when Aaron Rodgers got drafted, or I think actually I was in college when Aaron Rodgers started starting for the Packers. And I was in college when my junior year. Yeah. And I was in college when Mike Tomlin got the Steelers job. And so these guys were like at the forefront of the league when my football consciousness just started to evolve. And I started to love and understand the league and the game on a deeper level.

38:53Derrik Klassen: And they're just, they're just towering figures of my football fandom. And even now, even with the Steelers becoming, it's harsh to call them a punchline, but we all kind of roll our eyes at the way the Steelers are just good enough to get blown out in the playoffs. And we certainly have done a lot of rolling our eyes at Aaron Rogers over the last five or six years, but the rodent part of my brain is still like, ah, these guys have been really good at what they do for a really long time. And they've admired each other for stretches of their career. Like I'm thinking about the clip from the Steelers Packers game ages ago where they sort of like made eye contact and just like laughed at each other.

39:35Derrik Klassen: Like I'm excited to see these guys on the same team. Maybe I'll regret that in six weeks, but right now there's a small sliver of me. That's like, maybe they can, maybe they can pull out some of the old magic. Maybe there's one last go around in there somewhere.

39:52Robert Mays: This feels, I understand what you're saying. This kind of feels like that 2008 Al Pacino, Robert De Niro movie, righteous kill with 50 cent. Like, yeah, they're the guys who are in heat, but that doesn't mean I get, I'm going to enjoy watching this, this deep into it. That that's kind of how I feel about that. Yes. They are Titans of their field. And I, Mike Tomlin is obviously still a very good coach, but I think Mike tight, Mike Tomlin combined with this version of Aaron Rogers. I don't know. I'm not quite as excited to watch it as you are. I guess I would say,

40:25Derrik Klassen: I guess we'll see how long that excitement lasts. Like maybe, maybe, you know, we're going to watch all these games together this year. Maybe on the first Sunday, I'm going to be like, I'm sorry. I take it back. This is not exciting. But right now, while I can still daydream, I didn't, you know, I've just, I've admired the way these guys do their jobs for a long time. And, and maybe something interesting could happen if they're together. I don't think I have any excitement going in and I'm not really holding a candle for it working out, but in the like 3%, world where it does work out, I do think I'll get up for it.

40:57Like if it really does start to go, I'll be like, okay, this is really, really cool. But I'm not, I'm not waiting for that. That's not happening.

41:04Robert Mays: That's probably how I feel too. I mean, you guys go back and you listen to like the Grantland NFL show in 2014, like Pete Garrett Rogers is my favorite NFL player I've ever watched. And so there is a slight version of me that does want to believe that there's something still left in there where we could see some shades of that. I just think that I've kind of let it go emotionally. And so if it happens, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not holding my breath.

41:28Derrik Klassen: That's the right way to approach it. But like, you know, if Steely Dan comes to town and I know it's not the same lineup, but if they play the songs I like, then, then I might buy a ticket and have a good time anyway.

41:40Robert Mays: Derek, what are you excited to watch for the 2025 Pittsburgh Steelers? Mine is a much less grand than that. I just, I want to see Jalen Ramsey and I want to see Jalen Ramsey play full-time nickel again. And I want to see him be able to do that for a team that that a defense that I think is going to be really good. I mean, they've paid for it to be really good. And also like the biggest issue I had with the Steelers defense last year was that the spine of it was bad. Well, if you bring in Jalen Ramsey, hopefully that starts to fix a lot of stuff. So I do think that he could, there's a chance that he's like a little bit of a skeleton key for them.

42:10And I'm really excited to see what that might look like for them.

42:13Robert Mays: I mean, I don't think he's just going to play a full-time nickel. I think there's a chance when they're in base defense, he's going to play a little bit of safety too, too, because their charge, that defensive staff is to make sure they're getting the best guys out there every single play. And when they're in base and they have four DBs on the field, I think you could make a really solid argument that Joey Porter Jr. and Darius Slay at corner and Jalen Ramsey at safety is part of those four DBs. This team played 207 snaps in base defense last year. That's a lot of plays that you don't want to just burn.

42:42Robert Mays: And so I do think that's part of the calculus for why they wanted Jalen Ramsey is that, well, he can play two positions, right? So we're getting to use him on every single play and strengthen our looks in both of those different personnel packages. And one of the reasons I think they can do that, and talking to people there in the summer when I was there for training camp, I was really curious about this, just what the process has looked like for him moving back to safety. And he is just so smart that it allows him to do this. He's a brilliant football mind, and he didn't even have the spring, and he still is on track to play what might be like two positions for them, like one 65 % of the time, one 35 % of the time he was using flashcards during training camp.

43:22Robert Mays: Like there's just doing everything he could to make sure this was going to go. Okay. And it really does seem like his game, the physicality he plays with, and just that football intelligence was always going to lend to him making this transition to the backend of the defense later in his career, if he wanted to. And it seems like we might get our first look at that this year, based on what they expect from him and how the rest of this defense is built. that's the thing is like with a lot of aging corners it might be the at the end we'll put him at safety and see if it works with Jalen Ramsey it's been like since the beginning of his career we've known that like all right when he's maybe not an elite corner anymore we'll put him at safety and it's it's probably going to be awesome what I'm excited about to watch what I'm excited to watch is the front I love the front I love the players on the front Cam Hayward and he's going to be back deeper in his career still playing at an incredibly high level I thought he He was fantastic last year.

44:14Robert Mays: Cano Benton's still a solid player. We know what TJ Watt is. I think there's been a little bit of like the shine off of TJ Watt recently, just because the production has been down. I do think part of that is just how much attention is paid to TJ Watt within that defense. I do think TJ Watt is still a very good player. I think that at this point, Alex Highsmith is like one of the best second edge rushers you can possibly have in the NFL. And they drafted Derek Harmon, who was like my favorite player in this draft. And right now it seems like the knee injury is not that serious. He might be back like early in the season.

44:45Robert Mays: I think they described it as week to week, which was music to my ears. And even if he's not going to play right at the beginning, Yaya Black, the defensive tackle they drafted at Iowa from Iowa, like the fifth round, just wrecking shop in the preseason. So I'm looking forward to seeing what this group specifically is going to look like with the combination of old blood and new. I'm really happy for it to like this. If they can actually just consistently generate a bunch of pressure and also like he's not nearly as sexy as these other guys, but like even Daniel Aquali off the bench, I think it's like a kind of good run defender.

45:15Like they have depth in a way that I do not think they had really the last handful of years.

45:20Robert Mays: Let's talk about the swing points with the 2025 Steelers. We all had the same one for this, which I do think makes sense considering all the resources that they've poured into it. What is your swing point for the Steelers, Derek? I mean, for me, it kind of, if we're not going to count the quarterback as a swing point, uh, we'll talk about that in a minute. I think it kind of has to be, uh, the offensive line. And I think this is one where, honestly, a little bit like the Ravens secondary. Like, I think I have a good amount of faith that they'll be at least solid. Like, I think the two young interior players last year in Frazier and McCormick played pretty well.

45:53Samalu is what he is. He's a solid player. Troy Fautano was a guy I adored coming out of college, and he obviously didn't get his rookie season. But I think he's been insane in the preseason. Like, I think he's one of those, like, everyone goes and watches the rookies because they're super exciting. and forget about some of the guys that like missed their rookie year. And we go back and look at them. But I really think he looks like an absolute demon. So if Fautanu is as good as he's looked so far in the preseason, if Broderick Jones is just fine at left tackle and then the interior is what we think it's going to be as those young guys get better.

46:24I mean, there's a chance that this is like the eighth best offensive line in football and that they need it to be that good.

46:31Derrik Klassen: I would hope Broderick Jones can be better than fine just because of his draft stock. but I guess start somewhere, right? Especially since he's flipping back to left tackle. Although that's, I mean, that's his college position. So maybe there's room for optimism that he can take to that a little more quickly. But I'm with you, Derek. The preseason was very encouraging and it's good too because training camp, at least the early portion of training camp, not so much. Broderick Jones was dealing with an injury. There was just a lot of doom and gloom about like, are we signing up to put our 41 year old quarterback behind a leaky offensive line.

47:07Derrik Klassen: And the regular season is going to tell the tale, but the early signs are at least very encouraging. And yeah, with the resources that they've spent there, I mean, it's, there's a lot of room for optimism. It is funny how much faith I have in the interior guys, whereas the outside guys for obvious reasons are, it much more feels like I'm holding onto the edge of my seat a little bit.

47:31Robert Mays: They better be a really good offensive line based on what they've pumped

47:35Derrik Klassen: into it they better be a really good how much would that suck if they're like you spend all that capital and it's just what it's okay it's fine it hasn't happened yet right and i think

47:45Robert Mays: there are reasons for that obviously you had to move some guys around last year the reason that broder jones had to play on the right side last season is because dan moore is a left tackle only so when fatanu got hurt they had to start shifting some stuff around i don't think they really anticipated mason mccormick playing that early but i think that experience is probably beneficial for him in the long run. And so if I don't know, I think the phrase that was used when I was there and talking to their offensive line coach was essentially, he's what we thought he was, right? Like he's become in and been what you expected him to be.

48:13Robert Mays: And I think the argument with Broderick Jones is you move him back to a position where maybe he's a little bit more comfortable and also playing next to Salamalu is just such a settling factor compared to playing next to a fourth round rookie for the majority of last season. So in theory, this should be a really good group, but it can't just be theoretical anymore. Like this has to be realized for the Steelers to reach their potential on offense. This is one of those situations where we think about the Steelers and all of these highly drafted offensive linemen and Arthur Smith, and it's like, they're this physical grind you down sort of offense.

48:43Robert Mays: And then you look at the numbers last year, they were a bottom eight rushing team in every efficiency metric. And it's like, well, if you're this really good grind you down rushing offense, why don't you run the ball good? And so I do want to see that take a little bit of a step this year and have it go from a theoretical thing to something that is actually realized. I do think some of that is like with offensive with young offensive lines will hold on to the flashes rather than like the consistency and I think that's part of it here but I also think like when everyone knows you're going to run the ball because they don't respect any of your quarterbacks which that might be a problem again this year so I was gonna say you might be living in that world again but I do think that's at least part of the calculus which is again this is why I'm gonna be scared of it that was kind of the case with the Jets last year um so I'm that is at least part of the calculus where I'm like willing to give them some leeway for that stuff.

49:31Robert Mays: All right, well, let's transition to this. What's keeping us up at night about the 2025 Pittsburgh Steelers? My answer is the version of Aaron Rodgers that we saw play for the Jets last year. It kind of has to be the answer because it's not just him. It's what I just talked about, where he made the run game worse in New York. When we when we did our New York preview and the preview for that team, we were like, do they have all these awesome running backs? They've invested so much in the offensive line. It should be a good rushing unit. And they were one of the worst rushing teams in the NFL last year because of the way that the offense was designed.

50:00That on top of Rodgers not wanting to get hit, ball coming out too soon, throwing like three routes at a time. It was not serious NFL operation.

50:09Derrik Klassen: I'm going to sound like an Aaron Rodgers apologist based on what I said at the top of the preview. but do we, do we give them, do we give him a chance of improvement based on another year removed from the injury, the buy-in of at least conceivably wanting to go to Pittsburgh, like being willing to sign up to do this with Mike Tomlin and Arthur Smith. Like, is there any chance that Rogers is more willing to play ball this year than he was last year?

50:41Robert Mays: Yes, there, there is a chance. I'll believe it when I see it. My issue is just the way he wants to play the position right now. We've talked about this a lot this summer, and it came up in conversations with coaches and during training camp that we're looking at him as a potential option. What he wants to do right now is he wants to take one-on-ones when he has them, and he is going to have some of those with DK Metcalf. We are going to see slants and fades and advantage balls to DK Metcalf consistently within this offense the same way we did last year when he's throwing a billion slot fades and goal balls to Devontae Adams when he has those numbers.

51:16Robert Mays: He wants to do that. He wants to throw a quick game, which we'll see again. We'll see a million different slants and all that stuff early in the play. And he wants advantage throws, now throws certain, you know, like similar type of stuff we saw early in Green Bay, where it's like package play, like we're just going to throw a bubble when it's there. Like that's what he wants to do. He does not want to play out plays anymore based on what we saw with the Jets last year. and the Arthur Smith offense where it wants to be like heavy play action, attack the middle of the field. Like that is the platonic ideal of this offense.

51:48Robert Mays: That's not really what he wants to do anymore. And I'm just curious what the marriage ends up looking like. I think the positive spin is that Arthur Smith has tried to build in like a decent amount of flexibility pre-snap into this thing for a very long time and hasn't necessarily had the quarterback to make it all go. And now he does, whether or not that level of autonomy, even at the line of scrimmage is a good thing for Aaron Rogers at this point in his career. Again, I'll, I'll believe that when I see it, this is a lot of theory based on this offense. And I'm just not sure how confident I should be in what it actually looks like in practice.

52:20Derrik Klassen: I think that's totally fair. And, and maybe I'm giving the Steelers too much credit, but the one thing that I think is interesting is just like, no offense to the New York jets, but like that whole thing from the beginning felt so desperate. And obviously like the organization was willing to do whatever Rogers wanted to make, to try to make it work. I don't get that vibe from Mike Tomlin. That's not what we know about Mike Tomlin. And so for them to be willing to do this, I think comes with some degree of confidence that they're not going to kowtow to Aaron Rogers and Aaron Rogers is going to be willing to do the things that they want.

53:01Derrik Klassen: And maybe maybe they're grossly wrong about that. But I don't know. That's how I feel about it.

53:07Robert Mays: I just wonder how much of that can make him a different player at this stage. Well, and to me, like I let's even live in the world where he maybe does become a different player. And he's a little bit more willing to do some of the Arthur Smith stuff the way that he did some of the Matt LaFleur stuff in 2021 or whatever it was. Is he going to be accurate again? He was not accurate last year. Like he the reason that all of the I can only throw four routes the way that I did, you know, throwing slot fades and just throwing a million bullets, Lance and all this stuff. It's because nobody was more accurate at putting the ball right in a receiver's chest the way that he was.

53:37That just wasn't true last year. And like maybe again, one more year removed from the injury, like he will be a little bit more comfortable slinging it the way that he used to. But that's something that I would be more willing to buy if he was 32 instead of instead of over the hill on 40. Like that's where it kind of gets complicated for me. Yeah.

53:54Robert Mays: The history of quarterbacks at this age is pretty bleak, man. I mean, we got Tom Brady and nothing. And I just think that we saw this happen with Tom Brady at the end too. It happened very much at the end, but that last Tom Brady season where he's just like, I don't want to be in the pocket anymore. I don't want to do this. I do think that we're trending a little bit in that direction with, I thought that Beller was yelling at me for being too close to the microphone. and he was yelling at Derek about Ray Rogers being old as a 41 year old. All right, let's get to what we're watching over the first month of the season with the Pittsburgh Steelers.

54:33Robert Mays: Derek, what do you got for me? I mean, is anyone other than like who other than DK Metcalf is catching passes in this offense? Like we know that, you know, the tight end room has some talent, but I don't know what we're going to get from Roman Wilson, who I loved coming out of college, but like he didn't have a rookie season. And so I don't know what we're going to get there. and then the other guys other than that it's like calvin austin is a fine if he's maybe your third or fourth guy but i just don't know a whole lot if they're going to get anything more there robert woods is already injured which is i don't even know if you wanted to rely on him in the first place but that's where they're at so just how every non-dk metcalf pass catcher shakes out is i'm very curious about what doesn't matter when this team plays 75 13 personnel over the course of the year so the answer is johnny smith is just gonna catch they got the beef to do it That's for sure.

55:19Robert Mays: I will say, if I had to make an argument for why them living with multiple tight ends on the field, even three of them at a time is actually okay for this team, it's that the tight ends do have a diversified enough skill set combined where you're getting a little bit something different from all of them. Pat Fryermuth and Jonu Smith both are kind of like move tight ends, but Fryermuth is more of like a seam stretcher, kind of zone beating tight end, and then Jonu Smith is obviously somebody you can get the ball in his hands after the catch. You can manufacture stuff for him. And then Darnell Washington is an offensive tackle who catches passes.

55:52Robert Mays: And so those three guys combined, you can build something around that. It's going to be weird, but Arthur Smith has never shied away from building something weird for the sake of doing it. And so I do expect to see a version of the Steelers offense that looks unlike anything else in the NFL, because that has been the trend with him as an offensive coordinator over the last few years or play caller period. I was going to say that more than calling a good offense seems to be his goal. Sometimes it's like, can I just call it offense that nobody else is calling? What I was speaking of evolution and details and how the structure of something looks, that's what I'm watching the first month of the season.

56:29Robert Mays: Just how does the secondary shake out for the Steelers? And then what does it mean for the evolution of the defense? Right. So if we get some Jalen Ramsey at nickel, we get some Jalen Ramsey at safety. Does that feed into a little bit more of a diversified menu for what this defense looks like overall? Last year in 2024, the Pittsburgh Steelers played the highest rate of single high in the NFL was like 65, 66%. No team ran fewer zone blitzes than the Pittsburgh Steelers last year, which is kind of crazy when you consider the Pittsburgh Steelers history and like what Dick LeBeau was for forever.

57:04Robert Mays: No team had fewer unblocked pressures than the Steelers last year, and no team played less quarters than the Steelers last year. Wasn't just a one-year blip. The rates in pretty much all of those things, except the unblocked pressures, have essentially been steady for the last three to four years. The Steelers defense have pretty much been what it is. TJ Watts lining up over here. We're going to play a bunch of cover three and man, and we're just going to roll. That's been pretty good because their talent has been very good since 2021. They are 13th in past defense success rate in the regular season.

57:34Robert Mays: 44.3 percent. when you get to the playoffs and you do not get to feast on the Browns twice a year and the other random teams that you get to play in the regular season it has been a different story they have a lot of 50.5 percent passing success rate and 0.35 EPA per drop back for reference the Panthers allowed a 49.9 passing success rate last year and Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson were about 0.24 EPA per drop back. The only teams in the playoffs since 2021 that have a worse EPA per drop back allowed than the Pittsburgh Steelers are the teams that played one playoff game and got shish kebab in that game.

58:13Robert Mays: The Patriots in that game against Josh Allen, the Browns in that game against CJ Stroud, the Seahawks in that game against Brock Purdy. They have been destroyed in the postseason. And I think part of that is how easy it is to build a one game game plan for the Steelers when you are one of the best teams in the NFL with one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. So what does it look like over the course of this year? And then do they diversify a little bit in order to avoid that fate when we get to January that they have seemed to face every year for the past few years?

58:43Derrik Klassen: I just had a really bleak epiphany listening to you read that off, which is that the Steelers are a mid version of the Ravens in the sense where they have accomplished none of the highs, but you still don't care what they do during the regular season. You're just like, okay, cool. You're 10 and seven. What happens in January? Like good for you without any of the fun with none of the fun, none of the MVP candidates, none of the crazy, like big plays or, or fun offense. It's just like, yes, you are a chore to watch. And I don't care what happens until we get to the playoffs, which that's not, that's not a fun place to be.

59:21Derrik Klassen: I want more than that for the Steelers.

59:23Robert Mays: And why they need more than that is that this team once again is spending more money on its defense than any team in the NFL by a ton. The Steelers this year against the cap will spend$157 million on their defense. The team in second is the Giants at$140 million. It's a$17 million gap. That's like an all pro safety. And so if you're going to do it this way with the resources, you need to be truly dominant on that side of the ball. And I think that goes beyond the personnel for this team. And I will be very curious to see what sort of tweaks we see over there and whether or not that ends up being helpful.

1:00:01Robert Mays: All right. I'm going to ask this question. I'm not really sure we're going to get a satisfying answer. Derek, what does success look like for the Pittsburgh Steelers? I want to be very clear. I do not think this team is of this quality. But to me, the way that they've built it with what you just said about how expensive the defense is, they have put more money into one side of the ball than anybody else is doing. They've went out and got what they what is a Hall of Fame quarterback and somebody they think is better than what they had last year. And they went and traded DK, their young receiver to go get DK Metcalf.

1:00:32This is a team that to me thinks that they can win a playoff game and get to the divisional round. Like you're the Pittsburgh Steelers. It's year. I don't even know what of the Tomlin regime. You have this much pumped into the defense. You traded for Jalen Ramsey like you clearly think that you can still go and win a playoff game this year again I don't know if I believe that looking at the roster but the way that they built this thing I think that's what they're shooting for

1:00:53Derrik Klassen: I think Derrik actually has his finger on the pulse of what they think in that building. Yes. Whether or not that's delusional is up to interpretation. I don't believe this, but they clearly do.

1:01:09Robert Mays: I will say this. They made a lot of win now moves this offseason. The Jalen Ramsey trade signing 34-year-old Darius Slay signing Aaron Rodgers. none of those moves compromise what your resources look like in 2026 and beyond. And I do think that even as they kind of gesture at trying to be competitive this year, because they're the Steelers, this team, it's setting itself out for a two to three year window where you have a ton of draft capital next year. Can you make a run at the quarterback in the 2026 draft and kind of make this soft transition with some of the younger pieces that you have on this roster?

1:01:45Robert Mays: So in the building, it might be win a playoff game because we have Aaron Rodgers and all of the usual characters you're used to within this on this roster. For me, I think you can still be a success when it comes to the broader health of the organization. If by the end of this year, you have established a real core of young players. All right. There was a stretch from, I believe, like the 2019 draft through the 2021 draft when they traded a first round pick away and took Devin Bush. that's the Kenny Pickett draft that DeMarvin Layal there were so many like early picks over those couple years that just aren't even on the roster anymore the last couple years can you make sure you're getting five six seven guys that you feel good about as your core moving forward from those drafts the offensive line Harmon Black Peyton Wilson Jerry Joey Porter Jr.

1:02:36Robert Mays: plus setting yourself for the quarterback move in 2026 like I honestly don't care how good they are this year. Let's say Rogers is as bad as he might be. Let's say he was the quarterback he was last year. Let's say the defense is the 10th best defense in the league and they finish eight and nine. As long as all those other things I just said happen, I think that's an okay season for the Pittsburgh Steelers when it comes to accomplishing the real goals that they should try to have over the next two to three years.

1:03:03Derrik Klassen: I care how bad they are. And I don't care. I don't really care if they make the playoffs. It would be nice to keep the winning season streak alive because it's a cool stat. But if Mike Tomlin keeps coaching, that will eventually come to an end. That's just the law of averages. I just, but you can't be, you can't be shit. Like it's, it's the Steelers. And maybe, maybe this is me talking as somebody who came up, like grew up under this regime. But I mean, they've had three head coaches since 1969. They've got the most Lombardi trophies or tied for it anyway. Like they're the Steelers. That that comes with a type of consistency and like a no nonsense approach.

1:03:43Derrik Klassen: You can't be awful and you can't be a circus either. Like, I don't want to have to listen to Mike T answer questions about what may or may not have been said on Pat McAfee the day before. Like, that's no offense, Jets fans, but that's Jets stuff. That's not Steelers stuff. And like the one thing the Steelers have right now, as they navigate this, no quarterback wilderness is their reputation and respectability. Yeah. And like, if you sully that chasing 10 and seven and a wild card win and, and even worse, if you don't come close to getting it, like if you sully that reputation to go five and 12, ew, gross dude.

1:04:25Robert Mays: So don't put stains on the terrible towel and, and win like at least eight games. I think that's fine. I think that's okay yeah and I think for me the last thing I would say is like the I if they land in a spot where they still have like a borderline top 10 defense a lot of the young pieces on offense look nice for whatever the next quarterback is going to be that's fine and I think that you can live with that that's such a more compelling place to live when you're in year two of regime instead of close to year 20 and I understand that like this is a different set of circumstances because it's the Steelers but because you're the Steelers I'm just going to hold you to a higher bar.

1:05:01And if that's unfair, that's fine. I don't really care, but I'm going to.

1:05:04Robert Mays: Even with mainstay franchises, though, there are vacillations in what you're trying to accomplish in a given year and what your multi-year outlook looks like. This team has an additional third round pick because of the Pickens trade. They have an additional third round pick because of the Dan Moore contract and an additional fourth because of the Justin Fields deal. They have a lot of draft capital in the middle of this draft. And I do think that they'll have the ammunition to hopefully make a swing and make sure we're not going to half-ass and half-measure the quarterback spot anymore. So even if it's year 18, it's kind of like year one or two of this version of what the Steelers are trying to be.

1:05:37Robert Mays: And so I think that's why maybe I'm giving them a tiny bit more grace when it comes to what success or failure looks like for this season specifically. Let's get to the Cincinnati Bengals. This'll be fun. Cincinnati Bengals offseason in 60 seconds. hired Al Golden as their defensive coordinator from Notre Dame extended Jamar Chase four years 160 million that seems like it happened 20 years ago extended T Higgins four years 115 million reworked Trey Hendrickson's deal gave him a 14 million dollar raise to just kind of keep him happy but they could still lose him after the year and still tag him after the year by the way I can't wait to do the whole Trey Hendrickson thing again next spring reworked BJ Hills deer deal three years 33 million with 11 guaranteed brought back.

1:06:22Robert Mays: Mike is sicky three years, 25 and a half million, six and a half guaranteed sign TJ Slayton defensive tackle two years, 14 million small deals for Noah fan, Joseph Asai and Oren Burks. No, if I, if you were a tight end and you were a free agent, you immediately sign with the Bengals. Do you want to make$9 million next year? Go to Cincinnati with Joe Burrow. So it is the, we have the career rehabilitation plan for the Niners and Chris Kisarek that the Joe Burrow tight end career rehabilitation plan has been in full force over the last few years for the Bengals. In the draft, took Shamar Stewart, 17th overall in the first round.

1:06:56Robert Mays: Edge rusher, linebacker Demetrius Wright, second round, 49th overall. Offensive guard Dylan Fairchild, third round, 81st overall. Linebacker Barrett Carter, fourth round, 119th overall. Lost Alex Kappa, Sheldon Rankins, Akeem Davis Gaither, and Jermaine Pratt in the offseason. Derek, what are you excited to watch for the 2025 Cincinnati Bengals? I mean this is another one of those ones where it's so simple it's almost not even worth saying but it's the fact I mean it's it's Joe Burrow and his two superstars at wide receiver and like the reason I am framing it with those two particular players when all three of those guys were on the field together last year which given T Higgins's injury history is always a little bit up and down but when they were all on the field together last year they had a 51 54.1 percent success rate as an offense not just a passing offense the offense overall and a 0.17 epa per play for reference the ravens throughout the course of the season led the nfl with 0.16 epa per play and the lions led the league with a 52.8 success rate the bangles are the best offense in the league when all of these three guys are playing and i i really don't see why that would stop this year with traffic cones at the guard spots yes yes with traffic cones at guard which which that has been true the entire time that Joe Burrow has been there basically but we're fixing it guys there were a couple years early it was okay last year it bottomed out in a pretty bad way at some of the interior offensive line spots and they were still the best offense in the league when those three guys were out there and we're fixing it guys come on let's go I do we're well I'll do my Dylan Fairchild propaganda a little bit later but I do have some faith in the offensive line being a little bit better Dave my answer is essentially the same I mean it's this offense those three guys.

1:08:40Robert Mays: But also I do think part of it, what I'm excited to watch is this offense has evolved in subtle, but important ways over the last few years. And I do think in some ways it's like reached its final form, like the most dangerous version of what this collection of players can look like. There's a few different ways that that's happened. For example, Jamar chase last year, a third of his routes came out of the slot last year compared with 23 % the previous year. So you're taking, I think when we say best receiver in the league I think it's a conversation with Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson I think scariest receiver in the league is still Jamar Chase I think that's a great way to put it the scariest receiver in the league and now you're turning him into a horror movie villain where you don't know which door he's going to be popping out of over the course of the entire game they're doing a little bit of that this team finished third in the NFL in EPA per play out of 12 personnel last year behind only the Ravens and the Bills.

1:09:36Robert Mays: They were fourth in total yards out of that grouping. This was a team that played in 11 personnel 98 % of the time when Tyler Boyd was there. Some of this is driven by Gesicki's usage because he's not really a tight end. But even when Gesicki was not on the field, this team finished 10th and 12th personnel usage last year. And then even if you look at some of the stuff they were doing early in the season with Eric All, like as a blocker and a lead blocker, they're really trying to push things forward with the bigger bodies that they're putting on the field. And the last one that I'll throw out there, this is independent of how you're using Mike Kosicki.

1:10:08Robert Mays: In 2023, the Bengals were in spread formations on 34.8 % of their plays per next gen. That was a top five rate in the league. They were in condensed formations on about 16 % of their plays, which was a bottom three rate in the league and double or half of the amount of times they were in spread looks. This was a spread out offense and had been for years since Joe Burrow got there. last year, 26 and a half percent spread looks 25 and a half percent condensed looks. They have slowly built layers into this thing that make them more difficult to play against. And when you're combining that with a quarterback playing at Joe Burrow's level, Joe Burrow leveling up certain elements of his game with how he was moving around the pocket, and you're making it harder to defend the receivers because you're using them in more diversified ways.

1:10:53Robert Mays: we're cooking over here. And that is what the Bengals offense felt like last year.

1:10:59Derrik Klassen: On top of all of that, I'm, I'm really excited about the potential for some ceiling razors to what is already the best offense in football. Like the Bengals are in the mess that they're in right now, which we'll get to because they haven't drafted well enough on defense. It looks like they could have added some dogs in the draft on offense though. Like I'm so excited for year two, a Marius mems. I remember like the, the word coming out of college on a Marius mems was he just didn't play a lot. Like he played seven games in his final season at Georgia. Now you get year two, the guy's built like an ent from Lord of the Rings.

1:11:37Derrik Klassen: I mean, like the potential is limitless for a guy like that. You add Dylan Fairchild, which we only saw the preseason, but it was at least encouraging and exciting for a third round pick. Who's playing his first pro snaps. this is the first year where it's really chase Brown's show from the very beginning. And we all know what that looked like when he got to take the job and run with it. I'm even, I'm excited to see if Taj Brooks can carve out a role for himself as a rookie. It's a guy I liked a lot coming out of Texas tech. Like there's just, there's some young talent, Andre Yoshivas as well.

1:12:12Derrik Klassen: Like he's been a solid player for them. He's going in. Yeah. So as bad as they've been drafting defenders, they've added what it, I guess I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. We don't know for sure that they're all good yet, but the potential is there that they could be really good. And if they are, I mean, it's not like the Bengals need to get better on offense, but how scary is that? If they are.

1:12:35Robert Mays: By the time Amarius Mims got to like week 10 last year, he had played more snaps as an NFL player than he did his final season in college, which is something one of their coaches brought up to me when I was there at training camp. And I do think that's worth mentioning. And also he was somebody that was banged up coming into the year, that stunts development. And so him just being healthy is really exciting. I will say as somebody that is really hinging his happiness this fall on whether or not Chase Brown scores a lot of fantasy points, I do not want to see Taj Brooks play well for the Bengals, but I can understand where an objective observer would want that.

1:13:09Robert Mays: The last thing I'll say about just the offense in general and why we might see a little bit of some areas we've seen differentiation. The amount of play action that they've started to use is never going to be a lot, but it has been considerably more than it used to be. And so just one more thing they're doing, just taking plays off of the offensive line, which they never used to do. It was one of the hardest jobs in football being an offensive line for the Bengals, being an offensive line for the Bengals because they're leaving you out to dry like 70 % of the time because that's just how they wanted to play.

1:13:37Robert Mays: And that was what the skill position talent dictated. And then the other thing is you're making it easier on the quarterback. you're giving him like four or five plays that are a tiny bit easier. And so them having as much talent as they do, and now just taking a little bit off of that talent and letting the scheme do the work every once in a while. I do think that is what has helped bring the Bengals offense to this point. Let's talk about the swing points with the 2025 Bengals. Derek, what do you got for me? So it's two Georgia offensive linemen, Amarius Mims and Dylan Fairchild. Like they are the rest of the guys who have been on this offensive line are either not serious needle movers or we've already seen them in this offense and know that they're kind of just placeholders fairchild and Mims are the ones that like if they hit they're going to be the ones moving people they're going to be the ones that are picking up every stunt that they need to all that certain stuff and I have a decent amount of faith that we're going to get there like I love Amarius Mims I mean me being the sizest and him being built the way that he is like it's just very easy for me to get excited about the way that he moves the way that he's built and again last year he looked really good in the preseason and then like got banged up a little bit early in his season and just never quite got to I think the player that we wanted him to be but I've got faith that he's going to be good and then Dylan Fairchild I know when we talked about after the first preseason week I was like a little bit up and down with him the Washington game man he was just he was destroying people and again it's only preseason and stuff but the fact that he was at least doing that like picking up everything he's incredibly aggressive in a lot of his past sets which I kind of find admirable like he's just if those two guys are what they need them to be.

1:15:06This is going to be hopefully a very different Bengals offensive line.

1:15:10Robert Mays: And I want to say about an hour before we started recording, they signed Dalton Reisner and we'll see what that ends up shaking out to be. I, one of the areas of concern for this team for me throughout the entire off season, and it's honestly where I wanted them to spend some of their excess cap that they could have created in the way that they structured the Jamar chase and T Higgins contracts and just didn't create was finding like another eight to $9 million in the couch cushions to pay an offensive guard to play right guard for you because the Lucas Patrick Cody Ford part of this, I was not excited about.

1:15:39Robert Mays: And there was like some cautious optimism that by the end of camp, they could be in a spot where they liked what they had there. I think the Reisner thing is an indication that they might not have liked where things landed. And so I would not be surprised if he got a crack at being the right guard for this team. I don't think Dalton Reisner is an exciting option. It's why he's available on Labor Day, but I do think he could be a slight upgrade over the two guys who are fighting for that right guard spot and a slight upgrade is enough for me to at least breathe a tiny bit easier and the thing I would say there too and you've brought this up a number of times with young offensive lines that I think is a great point when you get a older veteran guy who's clearly done this for a while next to a young player like Amarius Mims in this case that that alone even if on an individual level he's not really better than Lucas Patrick is probably worth it in the end my swing point is kind of an extension of the offensive line conversation.

1:16:28Robert Mays: It's just the run game. Like if you look at their run game last year, this team just struggled to run the ball on its own terms last season. They were bottom six in rushing success rate. And even with Chase Brown out there, they would have been 19th in rushing success rate on his snaps. I will say him being the guy from the start does change like the construction of your running game a little bit. You know, when it was Zach Moss, I think that you're leaning toward runs where it's let's just be efficient, right? Like let's just make sure we're consistent. And that is an interesting wrinkle to the Bengals run game in that I think they don't want the run game to create negative runs.

1:17:01Robert Mays: They don't. The downside of those when you have such a strong passing game, I think that creeps in a little bit and how they structure it. So there's a lot of duo. There's a lot of like mid zone, like runs that are hitting pretty quickly. Let's make sure we're getting something here. So at least we're putting our quarterback in a position where it's third and six instead of third and 11. And so they do that pretty consistently and their actual down and distances on third down are not that bad considering their lack of run game efficiency on early down. So I think that's worth considering. They actually last year finished at a bottom seven rate of negative runs or runs for zero yards last year.

1:17:35Robert Mays: And I don't think that's an accident. So we'll see with chase brown now being there from the start as this guy who's got a little bit more oomph and having offensive linemen that maybe you can weaponize a little bit more, right? So instead of those runs that are a little bit more modest than what you're trying to get from them, do we see more power? Do we see more counter? Do we see more complimentary runs that are designed to hit a little bit because you have a new left guard that you're excited about? and because you have a running back that you can get out the gate a little bit. So I do think that there might be a better outcome here along with the improvements to the offensive line personnel that I do think are coming.

1:18:11Derrik Klassen: They've been top 10 in rushing success rate once in the borough era, and it was 2022 when they went 12 and four

1:18:19Robert Mays: and had zero explosive runs for the entire season.

1:18:22Derrik Klassen: Hey, I mean, Chase Brown brings that element, but as long as it's useful, Like the explosive. I'm cool with the explosiveness coming from the receivers. That's what you're paying. Well, you want Chase Brown to make all the explosive plays.

1:18:38Robert Mays: I'm like, as long as Brown never has an explosive play, but he runs for 1700 yards and 15, one yard touchdowns. It's fine with me.

1:18:45Derrik Klassen: Get them to the, get them to the two yard line. Yeah, exactly. As long as somebody is producing the explosiveness, I just need the run game to be useful, which it hasn't been in at least a couple of years. I will say if they want more run game explosives, I would consider getting under center more, but this is something the offense has always struggled with. And I don't know if they're going to get another element though,

1:19:03Robert Mays: where some of those runs, those like the duos in the mid mid zones and from the gun, like it just, sometimes it's harder to be quite as explosive when you're going to be a gun run team that is not including the quarterback in the run game. So, and that's, it's always a push and pull. And we've talked about this so many times over the years, like there are certain things where other teams are going to let the scheme do the work and they're going to get under center and they're going to use play action. and they're not going to ask their quarterback to do a ton. And they just don't want to do that because they feel like it neuters one of the best characteristics that their MVP level quarterback brings to the table.

1:19:37Robert Mays: And so there's always a compromise and a trade-off, no matter what and how you're going to structure the offense. I think they're willing to live with the drawbacks in the run game a little bit if it allows Joe Burrow to be who Joe Burrow is. And I can understand landing in that place. The last thing with the offensive line to mention, new offensive line coach this year, Scott Peters came over from the Patriots. He was only there for a year. He's somebody that very well respected as like a technician and kind of how he teaches things. So we'll see how that might impact the development of some of those young guys.

1:20:04Robert Mays: The Patriots offensive line obviously was a disaster last year, but you could have like come by and Jeff Stoutland, Skarnickia and Bill Callahan into one person. And I'm not sure they could have gotten the Patriots offensive line there last year. What is keeping you up at night, David, about the 2025 Cincinnati Bengals?

1:20:24Derrik Klassen: I mean, it's, it's obviously the defense, but the thing that really scares the shit out of me is the Bengals were that bad with Trey Hendrickson being a defensive player of the year caliber guy. Like he, he left it all out there and they were still that awful. And now he did not have a training camp. He's 30 years old. he just had back to back 17 and a half sack seasons. So I hope he defies the odds. I hope he proves me wrong, but the odds that Trey Hendrickson is as good as he's been seem low to me, even if he's still good, the odds that he's that good seem low. And he's the only thing that anybody likes about the Cincinnati defense.

1:21:10Derrik Klassen: So is it possible for them to be worse? I don't know.

1:21:14Robert Mays: It seems like it's at least on the table. I will say the difference between the Trey Hendrickson dynamic and some of these other holdout dynamics is Trey Hendrickson did not really get paid. He's still in a contract year. That is fair. That is quite a motivator. Urgency going into the year for Trey Hendrickson. Just throwing it out there. That's it. That's a good point. That also. I don't know if that moves me because I think I'm kind of in the same boat as Dave like this. I don't know.

1:21:41Derrik Klassen: like I don't worry about Trey Hendrickson's urgency or work ethic, but being 30 and not having six weeks to ramp up doesn't sound great. That part of it does scare me a little bit, right? The fact that he's had like a little bit of a shortened camp, uh, especially granted because of how good his history is, like he'll probably be fine, but it's when the other 10 players are what they are. I just, I've, I've been extremely alarmist about this defense for the entire off season. And this is the last time we're going to talk about them before things kick off. And I'm not stopping like Like this unit is terrible.

1:22:12They got brutal in the preseason too.

1:22:15Robert Mays: I mean, I don't know how much that matters. I don't want to overreact to it, but it's been pretty brutal. The what, when Washington second string offense is obliterating you, like putting you off the field, slamming linebackers into a second linebacker. Like it's, I'm sorry, even if it's preseason, I'm going to be pretty alarmist about that. All right. So let's transition to what we're watching over the first month of the season, because I think this is like a good next beat. in the defense conversation. What I'm watching for the first month of the season is who, if anyone, looks different on this defense.

1:22:48Robert Mays: This is what we've been sold, is that Al Golden is going to come in. He did a great job of connecting with young players when he was at Notre Dame. Lou struggled to use and improve the young players. So this is what we're going to tap into. We're going to be a little bit simpler. We're going to play a little bit more man coverage. We're going to be a little bit more aggressive. You are going to see different versions of these young players than you saw over the last couple of years. I don't know if you guys probably haven't seen this, but there's a standup that I really like, Chris Fleming, and he's talking about how cocaine is back at SNL.

1:23:18Robert Mays: And he goes, all right, well, show me the results then. That's how I feel about the Bengals defense. All right. Doesn't look like it. Yeah, fine. You want to do all this? Show me the results then. I want to see which of these young defenders are better. Does Dax Hill look really good moving to the nickel? He had flashes at corner last year. What does he look like? Are we going to get a different version of DJ Turner in this sort of defense? Does Miles Murphy take a step forward? What do we get from Chris Jenkins in year two? That was somebody who came up a lot when I was there talking to coaches just about what he has looked like this year, a little bit more pass rush juice, a little bit more confident.

1:23:54Robert Mays: Things have slowed down for him. All things that sound great in early August. What do they look like in early September? So I'm open to being wrong about this. I am open to this idea that their plan on defense for how they're going to unlock all this stuff is going to work. but I need to see the results of that. If the offense is going to be as good as we think it can be. And this September for this team cannot be a disaster again. I think I just have issues with it. Cause it's like, I think the idea that a guy was able to connect with young players when he got to coach Notre Dame's defense is like, this just seems like we're making shit up at this point.

1:24:29Robert Mays: I'm just the messenger. I'm not blaming you. I want to be clear. I'm blaming their messaging. So I, I really just like, don't understand. like this is the NFL, man, like you're all adults here. Figure it out. So that part of it is to me. But any time I realize that whenever teams are doing like coach speak about what their defense is going to be, they always say it's going to be multiple and aggressive and all that stuff. Whatever. I don't really care about that. When a defense is explicitly saying we're going to be simpler. That worries me, man. I don't love that. We live in a world where defense cannot be simple.

1:25:00Derrik Klassen: And I really go in these we go in these cycles, though. Like every time a coordinator gets fired, it's just like, oh, the playbook was too big. And Al's Al's play sheet fits on an index card and we can just play so much faster. And then when that inevitably fails on an index card and those defenses aren't any good.

1:25:18Robert Mays: Those those defenses are passive, though. I think the whole point of this is we're going to play a little bit more, man. We're going to be in your in your hip pocket, like all that stuff and the benefits that come with it. And I will say that that version of simplifying it can be beneficial in the right situations. Whether or not this is one of those, we'll see.

1:25:34Derrik Klassen: I hadn't thought about this, but I love the fact that Al Golden is getting billed as relating to the youth when his calling card for a large chunk of his career was wearing a starched white dress shirt with like a huge tie. Like that was his thing forever being on the sidelines looking like a CPA. So maybe it'll work. And I'm with Derek. I've been saying all offseason. I just think Lou Anarumo was a convenient scapegoat. scapegoat. But that doesn't mean that Al Golden can't be successful. And if you're a Bengals fan looking for a shred of optimism, I do like there are guys on this defense that I just have to believe are better than they might have looked last year.

1:26:15Derrik Klassen: And if Al Golden... Who are those guys?

1:26:16Robert Mays: Because I think that's the exact thing they're trying to sell.

1:26:19Derrik Klassen: I mean, the guy that comes to my mind right off the top of my head is Cam Taylor Britt. Like, I have to believe you can get good results out of him. Geno stone had the benefit of playing on a loaded Ravens team. And maybe that's the issue, but even Geno stone has played good football over the course of his career. Logan Wilson has played good football over the course of his career. Like there are four or five guys that should be able to be part of a useful NFL defense here. I don't know if that's enough, but again, if I'm looking for the glass half full version of events, maybe that's it.

1:26:53Robert Mays: I will say that when they did start playing some of these younger guys a little bit later in the season, you did see some decent results like Jordan battle becoming a starter in week 13, like Jordan battle probably should have been playing a little bit more. We didn't see Dax Hill for a good majority of last year. So I, again, I'm open to this idea that some of these young guys are going to surprise us. If Jordan battle can be good, if Cam Diller brick and be a little bit more consistent, if Dax Hill can be an impactful player as he settles into that role, if they're better against the run, right?

1:27:22Robert Mays: And so that's the entire thought process of adding a guy like TJ Slayton, but not really having an interior pass rusher in the mix. They didn't have those guys last year because Sheldon Rankin's like didn't play. And so even having like a full arsenal of a defensive line rotation, is that going to lead to different results? Maybe. Like I'm open-minded enough to be surprised here. I just think that it would be a surprise if this unit actually is appreciably different than it was at the end of last year.

1:27:48Derrik Klassen: I would just say, and I remember talking about this on the seat at the table show, they just have to be normal, bad. Like you just, you just gotta be normal, bad and not like, what am I watching? How is this the NFL bad? And if you can pull that off, then this is a 10 or 11 win team.

1:28:05Robert Mays: We're wrong about defenses all the time. And I think as much youth as they have on that defense and as much uncertainty as they have with like the fully formed version of the players is an advantage here. That's one of the ways that we can potentially be wrong. And so I think that is what kind of has to unfold for this team to accomplish the goals that it wants to. Do you want to talk about what you're watching the first month of the season, David?

1:28:28Derrik Klassen: I think it's just worth bringing up because it's been a reliable trend since they made that Super Bowl. Since 2021, Cincinnati's four and eight in the first month of the season. They famously started oh and three last year. They lost those three games by a combined 12 points. what happens when you have a great offense and a terrible defense. But yeah, it's, it is a troubling trend where the Bengals are behind the eight ball before you can even blink. Like every year since 21, we're midway or late into September saying like, can they dig out of this? Can they be one of the 15 teams in the modern era that's gotten to the playoffs after an 0-2 start?

1:29:08Derrik Klassen: Just spare me that. Just spare me the mental gymnastics of trying to figure out if you can dig yourself out of a hole. And Derek and I talked about this before the show, their opening opponents are Cleveland, Jacksonville, and we know Minnesota has got a great roster, but it's still a team breaking in a first year starter quarterback, like by NFL standards, it's about as manageable a first three games as you can ask for. Like surely this can be the year that the Bengals at least get to October at I'd settle for 500. Like if they're two and two, when we get to October, that's a vast improvement over where we've been the last couple of years.

1:29:46Derrik Klassen: And I think it matters. Like, I think it would be huge for everybody in that organization not to be answering questions about being in a mathematically just despondent hole two weeks, three weeks into the season. Or maybe, maybe they're doing this on purpose. Maybe they're just bad in September so that they can have for the rest of the season of like, Oh, we're fighting this uphill battle. That's clearly they want, Clearly they want to change it because they made the starters do stuff in the preseason. Like they sent Joe and Jamar out there. So it sure seems like they want to start faster. And I think that would be a great idea.

1:30:21Robert Mays: All right. What does success look like for the 2025 Cincinnati Bengals? I think you have to win a playoff game. Like your quarterback is Joe Burrow. You have the best receiver in the league and you can score 35 in a given game. I know they haven't made the playoffs the last two years, but you should probably win a playoff game. That should be the goal every year. That's where I'm at as well. When you have this quarterback in this offense, you should win a playoff game. I just don't think it's any more complicated than that. Even with the concerns they have on defense, even with the questions. Yeah.

1:30:50Robert Mays: Yeah. And there's, I don't think there's a whole lot to add. We're going to take one more quick break and then we're going to come back and we're going to finish this thing off with the Cleveland Browns.

1:31:01Derrik Klassen: Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA pet health insurance program. Question for any pet owners. Of course, we all love our pets, but do you ever think about just how much joy and energy your pet brings to your household? It's something that's been on my mind a lot recently because I spent a healthy chunk of the summer out of town away from our dog, Mozzie. And getting back to him really made me think about just how much he does for my quality of life, my mental health, and how I would do anything to keep his derpy little face bopping around next to me for as long as possible. I bring it up because today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program.

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1:36:14Robert Mays: Our preview for the 2025 Browns. They're off season in 60 seconds. Promoted Tommy Reese to offensive coordinator. Extended miles Garrett for years, 160 million, 123 guaranteed. Sign Malik Collins, two years, 20 million, 13 guaranteed. Sign Joe Flacco, one year,$4 million to be their starting quarterback. That's starting quarterback money, baby. Try on Shainka, Cornelius Lucas, Devin Bush, Tevin Jenkins, Kinzall on smaller deals. Lost Dalvin Tomlinson, James Hudson, Elijah Moore, and Nick Chubb in the draft. Mason Graham, fifth overall, obviously traded down from the number two overall pick. Got Jacksonville's first rounder in the process.

1:36:45Robert Mays: Linebacker Carson Swessinger in the second round. Running back Quinshaw Junkins in the second round. Tight end Harold Fannin in the third round. Quarterback Dylan Gabriel in the third round. Running back Dylan Sampson in the fourth round. And quarterback Shador Sanders in the fifth round. Derek, what are you excited to watch for the 2025 Cleveland Browns? And Stefanski gets to be himself again, hopefully, and actually gets to call a proper NFL offense, which I mean, like four years ago, we thought he was one of the most exciting play callers in the league because he was. And there are Stefanski getting to call his offense again means like so many things.

1:37:19But I think a microcosm of like how we've seen it deteriorate over the last handful of years was him with him there. The under center rate in Cleveland has dropped every single year that he's been a part of this team. It was 58 % in his first year there, and then it dropped to 50%, and then 41.5%, and then 35 % in 2023, and then 21.8 % last year. And a lot of that, you know, some of that was before, obviously the Deshaun Watson thing, but you really start to see that kick into overdrive where they became more of a spread, this is not what I want to be type of offense over the last couple of years.

1:37:53And the fact that we are going to take a hard, hard turn away from that, I'm very excited about. As am I.

1:37:59Robert Mays: This is a team that was really scraping for answers on offense over the last couple of years. And they compromised in ways to try to make the quarterback work that ultimately just weren't beneficial. I mean, just how spread this team got, how gun oriented this team got. Just it was almost unrecognizable from what we came to expect from this offense. And I am excited to see what Kevin Stefanski and that staff can do in just more normal circumstances. Again, they might have brought in Mike Bloomgren as their offensive line coach. I think this is going to be a diverse downhill run game in the same way that has been in years past.

1:38:34Robert Mays: This team was running a ton of 11 personnel last season, which is not, I think, the way that they want to live. I think they're going to be a 12 personnel team again this year. I think that they're going to be a screen team again this year. I think that play action is going to be back on the menu. And I do think we're going to see a few more wrinkles that play off of that central identity when over the last couple of years, they were just trying to find one period. So that's exactly what I'm excited for as well. Just to see this version of the offense with an offensive coach that when he has been allowed to tap into the things he does best has consistently gotten more than he probably should out of his offensive personnel.

1:39:12Derrik Klassen: I love the perspective that y 'all bring to this because you just look at it and I don't think it's groundbreaking to say like there, there's not a ton here that gets you excited. Like obviously the Browns are in the quarterback wilderness. Jerry Judy has come on recently and he's a nice player. David Njoku has been a good player for a while, but you don't look at this Browns offense and see a ton of firepower, but the way that you can call it and scheme it and align it with good coaching can just a make it better and be just make it more aesthetically pleasing to watch. And yeah, for a while now it just feels like the Browns have been trying to do square peg round hole.

1:39:55Derrik Klassen: And even if they're not going to be a special unit this year, if they're enjoyable to watch, particularly if you're a Browns fan, like there's a difference between a tough year where you at least see the vision and enjoy what you're watching and a tough year, like what we saw at the beginning of last year.

1:40:12Robert Mays: I think that's absolutely right. I mean, this is, even if it's a frustrating offense, because Joe Flacco and Dylan Gabriel and Shadour Sandoz are your quarterback over the course of the year. And Jerry, Jerry Judy is your number one receiver. And you're seeing when you get out of Cedric Tillman. And I don't want to make light of it, but the running back that you drafted in the second round that was supposed to be kind of the engine of this rushing offense and allow you to tap back into a version of yourself you couldn't be before. He's not even going to play for a while. We have no idea where we're going to see him.

1:40:40Robert Mays: Even with all of those considerations, I still just think watching something that is well-constructed and has like the right intent behind it and is interesting and compelling that's enjoyable. And I do think that that is potentially on the table, Derek, compared to what it has looked like over the last couple of years. If they are just like the 23rd best offense, but I wake up on a Thursday morning before the start of a new NFL week. And I'm like, I want to make sure I watched what the Browns did this week before we jump into the new week. That is enough for me. That's all it has to be. It just has to make sure where every time I watch this team, it does not feel like the worst thing I have to do that week.

1:41:16Derrik Klassen: And like, again, from a fan's perspective, If you go to the Muni lot every Sunday in Cleveland and you have a reasonable expectation that something fun might happen, even if you lose the game, that makes the cost of the ticket a hell of a lot easier to bear than again. Like, I mean, however many weeks it was that Deshaun Watson played last year was just like some of the most hopeless football you'll ever watch ever. And so even if it's just entertaining bad and it might be going somewhere like that, that is a more enjoyable fan experience, even if it's not what you ultimately want from your team.

1:41:54Robert Mays: This is where I'm going to do my Harold Fannin propaganda. I'm really excited to watch Harold Fannin within this offense. Harold Fannin was such a weird prospect. Derek were you on that show that I did with Dane where we talked about the hardest guys to pin down in the 2025 draft And Harold Fannin was the first guy that we talked about I'm, not sure if you were on that. I think I might have I think I might have been or I just very clearly remember listening to it It's just one of the where we're like, all right Who are the guys that are just the most difficult to figure out and Fannin was that guy for Dane?

1:42:22Robert Mays: It was the first player he mentioned and it was on so many different levels. He played a bowling green He has this weird kind of duck walk where he runs kind of funny He is a little bit undersized, but he was like the focal point of the Bowling Green passing game. And I think that they steadily in the pre-draft process and as they learn more about him have just gotten increasingly more excited about him. So Bowling Green, obviously very close to Cleveland. They went down before the draft and just wanted to get to know him a little bit more and in part wanted to know what he could handle. Right.

1:42:52Robert Mays: So if we see this really diversified vision for you, are you going to be able to mentally handle all this stuff? and pretty quickly they realize, yes, he can. And I think that's not surprising based on all the ways that Bowling Green used him. And I actually think that's also part of this is that Bowling Green laid out like a very clear way to use a player like this because they used him in every conceivable manner. And the other part that I thought was really interesting is that he's not like a big bodied blocker, but he's very instinctive as a blocker. And so if they're going to use him on some of this gap scheme stuff where he's pulling across the formation, the comparison they used was that He's almost like a runner in how his vision works when he's blocking in space, like the way that color flashes and the way that he can kind of attach himself to it.

1:43:37Robert Mays: He's very good at it. And you combine that with the fact that he might already be their best choice route runner of anybody they have on the team. I'm really looking forward to seeing what a weird player looks like in what is going to be a weird offense. and like to the point of blocking like for a player who kind of moves weird the way that he does and is also very young I'm okay living with some of like ah technique's not there yet or oh this strength's not there yet he tries his ass off as a blocker does it always amount to something I don't know but he at least is really really trying and this also even ties back into like the Stefanski offense thing like the best versions of his offense was a lot of 12 personnel and so if they believe in Joku and Fannin can be the players they want them to be like that's how I think you

1:44:18Derrik Klassen: get some of the best to fancy stuff again i don't want to get my i don't want to get my hopes too high but like remember a couple years ago how breathtaking it was when sam laporta did what he did as a second round pick and i i'm not trying to compare him as players but if the browns have a vision for harold fanon as a 67th overall picket tight end that's that's really exciting because that's not a position that i typically associate expectations with as a rookie you know like if he's really that ready to go and have a meaningful role that quickly, that's really fun.

1:44:54Robert Mays: You saw that in preseason. I mean, he was working with the starters as a third round tight end in the preseason. I think he's going to be a pretty significant part of this, how good the offense is and whether that excitement is justified. Even if you're a pronounced part of a bad offense, how excited we should we be for it? I think that's probably where I land with famine. let's talk about these swing points with the 2025 Browns Dave what do you got for me

1:45:19Derrik Klassen: it's funny because I listened to this show for a long time before I joined it and we talk ad nauseam about how much defense varies from year to year and it's a hard thing to predict consistency and sometimes you'll be good sometimes you won't be so good and there's not even a whole lot of way to explain it. And even with knowing all of that, I still can't wrap my head around what happened to the Browns defense last year. Like I still, I still don't get it. How in 2023, we spent so much time talking about how they were doing stuff that was potentially historic and they were number one at everything that you want to be number one at, except maybe run defense.

1:46:00Derrik Klassen: Like literally, if you go pull up the scatter charts that everybody loves so much, where all the logos are on the graph the 2023 browns were just trying to leap off the page like that's how good they were at doing shit and then you look at the scatter chart from last year and they're just decidedly like it's hard to find the logo because they're surrounded by everybody else like they just they just weren't good and i can't pinpoint like there shouldn't be one specific thing that made them that bad like maybe like maybe you didn't like the safety play maybe like they gave up a ton of explosive plays, but I just feel like it should have been better than it was based on the personnel that they have.

1:46:39Derrik Klassen: And a lot of those guys are still there. Obviously they're dealing with the loss of, uh, Martin Emerson, which sucks, but there's still enough talent here for this to be a really good defense. I mean, maybe not historically great, like they were pushing to be two years ago, but I got to believe it was better than, than what it was. And I think where that lands will say a lot about how feisty they are.

1:47:03Robert Mays: I think there are a few different areas where you saw some of that volatility creep in last year. One, they did not create turnovers last season. They had the second lowest turnover created. Like in terms of takeaways, they finished 31st in the NFL last year. They had 12 of them. And like you just alluded to, Dave, they finished 31st in explosive play rate allowed down to down the consistency metrics, like the efficiency metrics for the Browns defense were really good. They were still like one of the more like, Like every down success rate was top. It was like six best in the league. Yeah. Down to down.

1:47:37Robert Mays: They were still a pretty consistently decent defense. They just gave up a shitload of explosives and they created no turnovers. Yeah.

1:47:45Derrik Klassen: So, but I think that gives me confidence. Like, so basically the 2024 Browns were good most of the time. And then when they weren't good, it was a touchdown. Like, I mean, I'm looking at it right now, 56, 20 plus yard completions on the year. and they led the league in 20 plus yard runs with 22. So like if it went bad, it probably went horrifically bad. I might be getting ahead of myself a little bit, but isn't the defense still kind of built like that? I will say you're prone to giving up a ton of explosives in both. That may be true.

1:48:17Robert Mays: And I do think that some of the personnel downgrades are at least worth mentioning when it comes to the expectations for this team, losing Martin Emerson before the season even started. and now you're in a spot where Greg Newsom's going to have to play outside. You're going to be relying on like Cam Mitchell in the slot. Are you going to be as confident in playing as much man coverage with a guy like Cam Mitchell in there? I know that was something that when they were thinking about maybe adding somebody in training camp after that injury happened, was there a slot out there who was going to be able to play a decent amount of man for you?

1:48:48Robert Mays: I don't think there really was. And so I think that's something to think about. And I also think that the defensive line talent of this team at its best was terrifying. And right now I think it's they believe it's better than the outside perception believes. But I do still think it's like miles and the kids here. And we're trying to figure out exactly what you're going to get out of that group. Yeah, you're like I I think the thing to me is like if any of Alex Wright, Isaiah McGuire or Joe Tronjorninka were your third guy, that would be great. But they don't have a good second guy. Like that's kind of my biggest issue.

1:49:23And I will say of all the guys, I'm weirdly the most excited about trying to show Yinka because I think he was kind of miscast in both defense with as much as they were asking him to drop and like play as wide as he is. I do wonder if him being in more of a four down defense actually makes him a better player. But even that is like that. I want to see it in practice before. That's really something I can hang my hat on. And then like this defensive line is still like. I still have my questions about whether they can defend the run, but we'll get to that.

1:49:51Robert Mays: I'll be curious to see what we get out of Mason Graham, too. Like is Mason, I'm going to be a high floor guy. Is he going to, I mean, because there were disparate opinions about him in the NFL world coming into the draft. The Browns saw him as somebody that was definitively in that second tier of players, you know, after the top guys in the draft, other teams did not really believe that. And the Browns decided to stay at five rather than trade down when they probably could have. And because they felt like Mason Graham was a player worth drafting there compared to some of the options that might be around a little bit later.

1:50:22Robert Mays: we'll see what happens. I think he is somebody that might have a limited ceiling, but just where that ceiling exists. I'm really curious to see how that shakes out.

1:50:30Derrik Klassen: I try to avoid putting too much on rookies and Mason Graham is literally, he's turning 22 in a couple of days. So like literally it is miles in the kids, but top five pick and you traded away from Travis Hunter. Like I have reasonably high expectations for what this guy can be. Like I'm a little less willing to be patient on the vision here. Like this is a guy that I expect to upgrade multiple facets of the defense pretty quickly. And if that's harsh, I'm sorry, but I think the court of public opinion is going to feel that way anyway, especially if Travis Hunter is a star.

1:51:07Robert Mays: Derek, what is keeping you up at night about the 2025 Browns? I mean, related to the run defense, it's, it's the linebackers and it's kind of twofold. It's a little bit of what we just talked about with the defensive line, where I think all of their defensive tackles are still to me guys who are better penetrators than eat blocks like Mason Graham for I think even if you want to be excited about him he is still not a player where if you get four hands on him he has a good response to that he can just get moved by double teams a lot and so that worries me when your linebackers are rookie Carson Schlesinger who I like but in the way that like I think he can be good in the way that like Terrell Bernard is good where he's a good run-through player he's really fast sideline and sideline and he can cover he cannot take on guards the way that I think that you want to.

1:51:49And so that is going to be a little bit of a concern to me. And then their other linebackers are Mohamed Diabate, who I think has been fine in spot duty, but he's a little bit banged up right now. Devin Bush, who I think if you have one of the Devins from that draft class, your linebacker room is not good in 2025. And then they have Jerome Baker, who is on his fourth team in three seasons. So I just this linebacker room scares me a lot. I think that's fair.

1:52:11Robert Mays: And I think that's, again, one area where they're really starting to chip away at the quality here after losing JOK. And we'll see what Swessinger is. I will say they've been able to get by with undersized guys there last year, even without a lot of space eating players up front, just because of the style that they play with. We'll see if that calculus can work with Swessinger the same way it did with JOK when the defensive line is maybe just a little bit less scary than it's been in years past. What's keeping me up at night about the Browns. It's funny. It's not even like their 2025 outlook. Like if you're bad this year, it's kind of who cares.

1:52:43Robert Mays: It's how they dig out of this over the next two or three years. And we don't have to spend a ton of time on this right now. But when I think about the most worrying part of the Browns, it's that in 2026, you're still in a really bad spot. All of your offensive linemen, essentially, you're hitting free agency. You're still going to have to deal with all of that Watson money. They're$26 million over the 2026 cap right now. And they don't have a lot of levers to pull. I mean, the only contract that's essentially not zeroed out on their cap right now that isn't Deshaun Watson's is Denzel Ward. And so this team is just stuck in it.

1:53:17Robert Mays: And even if they can be competent this year, because they have that offensive line intact, I have my concerns about what the 2026 Browns look like. Maybe they bring back a couple of those guys, but Newsom's a free agent. Emerson's a free agent. Like there's just not a lot of silver lining with this team right now when it comes to personnel. And so that to me is still what is most concerning about the Browns. And that's not even really tied to their 2025 outlook. Are they the only team where we've done that? What is, what is really keeping you up at night? It's like not even tonight for, for lack of a better term.

1:53:51Robert Mays: What I think is important there is that some teams, if you're going to be bad, it's kind of like, well, who gives a shit, right? Like if, who cares? Like it doesn't really matter because you're in a position hopefully to bounce back with resources, is all that. And they have the extra first round pick. And I know that, but I still am just a little bit concerned about how they navigate the financial waters here over the last couple of years.

1:54:12Derrik Klassen: When you sign an unprecedented contract that is unprecedentedly bad, turns out that it has disastrous results.

1:54:22Robert Mays: It has unprecedented challenges that come along with it. Yeah.

1:54:25Derrik Klassen: Yeah. I can't say, can't say it looks fun to try to fix that over the next couple of years.

1:54:31Robert Mays: What are you watching over the first month of the season, Dave, with the Cleveland Browns?

1:54:38Derrik Klassen: Well, we got this far into it without really mentioning quarterback, didn't we? Which is funny because they had the largest quarterback competition in modern memory during training camp. But yeah, I mean, I think it's the funny thing is so much ink and talk radio airspace got spent on the quarterback competition. And I think anybody playing a modicum of attention knew that this was Flacco's job. Like, I never doubted that for a second. And now the only question is, how long can he keep it? Like, how long does he play well enough to maintain the starting role? Obviously, I mean, he had that incredible heater in 2023.

1:55:15Derrik Klassen: But how long can you maintain that over a 17-week season? I would imagine the Browns are hoping they can get until the weather's cold before they have to answer that question. maybe in some magical world maybe it lasts all season but i think i'm just i'm curious to see how long it goes with flacco before they make a switch i don't think it'll go all season i don't

1:55:38Robert Mays: think the only way that i think it goes all year is that if he's playing well enough where you're like a surprise playoff team and i just don't think that's gonna happen i feel like they'll let flacco take some of the lumps early in the year if you look at their early season schedule It is brutal. So they opened with the Bengals, right? And so he was always going to play the first game. After that, Ravens, Packers, Lions, Vikings, Steelers are five of their next six games. And so I don't think even if they believe Dylan Gabriel might be ready, they want to feed him to that early season schedule because there's really no upside in doing that, right?

1:56:11Robert Mays: Like you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. At least if you let Flacco play against that stretch, then you can turn to Gabriel when it gets a little bit easier. And so I do think we'll see Flacco for the first, like at least six, seven weeks. And then I think they're by is shortly after that. And then in the second half of the season, I feel like they're going to be compelled to play the young quarterback or the young quarterbacks. I think the only chance that Dylan Gabriel is like the starting quarterback for the rounds next year, or Shadour Sanders, whatever the, whoever, whatever young guy looks good is that if you, it's like overwhelming over the back half of the season to like dissuade them from trying to take a quarterback in next year's draft, either with their pick, the Jags pick or some combination of those two things.

1:56:54Robert Mays: So I think for the most part, the guys in the second half of the year probably going to be playing to see if they can have the backup job for the Browns next year. That's the read I have on it. They would have to be like Russell Wilson type of thing. And like, yeah, or like Dak. And like, I feel like we would have had a better inkling that that was going to be the case, which again, those guys started at the beginning of the year. They started from week one because of what the off season looked like. Exactly.

1:57:17Derrik Klassen: Not only that, but they were on good teams. Like, yes, that's the other thing. Exactly. We don't expect that of the 2025 Cleveland Browns. Yeah.

1:57:27Robert Mays: So I will see what happens. And obviously it's going to be an entirely different conversation when the young guys start playing and, and everything that comes with that, but we will save that for when we actually have to talk about it. What is success, David, for the 2025 Cleveland Browns?

1:57:43Derrik Klassen: Well, you just talked about needing to replace, like you need some of these draft picks to hit. You need to get young contracts in here to offset some of the disastrous financial stuff that's happened to the team. So I think, I mean, I think Mason Graham basically needs to be good. Like when you drafted a guy top five, that is a prerequisite. But if you come out of this season feeling good about Mason Graham and one or two other rookies. Like if, if your young players look good and you have cause for optimism and hopefully the Jags are awful. Like let's, let's wind up in a, in a situation where the Cleveland Browns have two picks in the top 10 or the top 12.

1:58:20Derrik Klassen: I think that would be really exciting, especially if you pair that with like, if you, if you have two picks in the top 12 and like Harold Fannin had a great season and Mason Graham and miles Garrett are like anchors on your defensive line. I think, I think that's a pretty good spot to start.

1:58:37Robert Mays: I really do think it's as simple as that. I, they're looking at this draft as like a get back on draft, get back on track draft for them. Cause they need one so desperately after the way the last four or five years have gone. The Watson thing, the contract is obviously a disaster, but them having like a lost generation of young talent in part, because of this draft, it makes it even worse. You can get around the financial stuff, not having the picks and not having any young ascending players on your roster that essentially aren't in heading into the final year of their deal. That's brutal. Like it's hard to deal with that.

1:59:11Robert Mays: And so them trying to accumulate as much draft capital as they can over the next couple of years, you come out of the season where Graham Swessinger fan, and they're all starters, right? They're all like quality starters. We'll wait and see what Judkins you're in a position to take a quarterback next year with some combination of those picks. And I think the last part of this is the offensive ecosystem gets revived to a point where you feel like it's a hospitable place for whatever young quarterback you drop back into there next year if all of those things happen and the browns go three and 14 then i think that that's okay well that's kind of what i what i was gonna get to i feel like for me it's have a season that justifies keeping stefanski around because i still think that he's the right coach for this team i think almost everything that's gone wrong is not really his fault.

1:59:57I'm a little bit worried if they go three and 14 that he will not be around. Like, it's just hard to stomach that many losing seasons like that in a row. But if you get to like six and the offensive ecosystem looks right and the defense is good again, like that's probably enough to justify giving Stefanski a shot with whoever, whatever quarterback to jury you want to pick in next year's draft. That to me is probably success.

2:00:18Robert Mays: Yeah, I think for them and keeping their jobs, you probably have to win more than three games, even if there's any sort of certainties from ownership where it's like, oh, you know, I understand this. I understand the position we're in. And I think that the messaging has been there. If you look at just what Jimmy Haslam has said this summer, but we know that that thing can change in a second. Like if you're in a spot where you're getting blown out and it's cold as shit on the lake late in the season and you're sitting there in the box and you're embarrassed, then obviously things change.

2:00:50Derrik Klassen: Yeah.

2:00:51Robert Mays: All right, guys. That's it. That is all we got. We got 16 hours of division previews sitting there in your athletic football show feed for you right now. If you have not listened to any of the other divisions and like I mentioned at the top of the show, we are going to have individual YouTube videos for every single one of these teams. So about 32 half hour-ish previews in the athletic football show YouTube channel feed. Please go check that out. Sincerely appreciate everyone who chipped in to make all of those possible. I love doing these. I know it's a lot. I know I've asked a lot of you guys over the last couple of weeks, both the people on this show and the listeners.

2:01:28Robert Mays: So thank you very much. I think it's a fun thing to do. I think it's a great way to get ready for the season. I enjoy doing them. So thank you very much for sticking along the ride with us. Recording this on Thursday. It's coming out on Friday. We got some fun stuff coming next week. Can't say enough about it yet. Can't say much about it yet. It's going to look different on the athletic football show this year. and I'm really looking forward to the things that we are going to show you guys next week. It's going to be a fun season. And as the division previews wrap up, it truly does feel like the season is here.

2:02:01Robert Mays: So we're excited about it. Hope you guys are as well. Very, very much looking forward to kind of telling you guys what's on the horizon here when we get past Labor Day. So for now, that's all we got. Enjoy your Labor Day weekend. We will talk to you very soon.

2:02:24We'll see you next time.