2025 AFC South preview

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1:24Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. It's the AFC South preview today. No Dave Hellman. He's out today. He'll be back for all the shows later this week. Just me and Derek Klassen really enjoyed this conversation. This is one of the divisions where I actually visited with all four teams over the course of training camp, which it just feels like I have a lot more fluency in what these teams are doing than some of the other teams I didn't spend time with. And so, so much to dig into about the Titans with their new quarterback, the Colts and their quarterback conundrum that they're currently dealing with, what the Jags are going to do with Liam Cohen in year one, and then chatting about the Houston Texans who have a ton of talent on defense, a quarterback that I still think has a very bright future.

2:04Robert Mays: So enjoyed the conversation about the AFC South with Derek. Let's get to it right now.

2:14Robert Mays: The AFC South. We are here as part of our division previews, kicking off a full week of these one Monday through Friday. It is going to be a torrid race to the finish here before we get to Labor Day weekend and the eve of the NFL season. Derek, I'm excited about this one. I think that there's plenty to dig into here. We've not talked about the Anthony Richardson stuff at all, and so we're obviously going to hit that in the Colts preview. But there are a lot of important changes at really influential positions. We're going to talk about the Texans offense coordinator, the Jags offensive coordinator.

2:45Robert Mays: We have a new quarterback in Tennessee. I mean, there are reasons for hope, optimism, intrigue and key spots at pretty much every single team in this division.

2:54Dave Helman: Yeah, I think for three of these teams, they have reason to be hopeful for this year, but also like the next four or five years, depending on how things shake out for their quarterbacks and their offensive lines and stuff like that. And then the Colts are kind of in their own separate bucket, but are still one of the most interesting teams for their own reasons, which we'll get to.

3:12Robert Mays: No, Dave today. He is closing on a house, which you can't really reschedule. And so we definitely thought we'd give him a pass for this one, but he will be back later this week. Let's start with the Houston Texans. Our preview for the 2025 Texans. They're often off season in 60 seconds. Hired former Rams passing game coordinator. Nick Caley is their offensive coordinator. Extended Derek Stingley three years, 90 million, 90 ish million guaranteed. Pretty much Jalen Petrie three years, 39 million traded for Christian Kirk. CJ Gardner Johnson at Ed Ingram signed Ken Robinson one year, 12 million.

3:43Robert Mays: to be in the mix at tackle. Small deals from Mario Edwards, Nick Neiman, Sheldon Rankins, Justin Watson. Drafted Jaden Higgins, wide receiver in the second round, Rontae Ersery in the second round, wide receiver Jalen Knoll in the third round, and cornerback Jalen Smith in the third round. They traded Laramie Tunsell to the Commanders, and Stephon Diggs moved on and is now part of the New England Patriots. For each of these teams, we're talking about what we are excited to watch in 2025. Derek, what is your answer for what you're excited about with these Houston Texans?

4:14Dave Helman: The defense might be the best in the league. Like they were already one of the best in the league last year. They've got like two Ferraris off the edge. Like they're the best one to punch off the edge, I think, in the entire NFL right now. I think according to NFL pros stats, they were both like top eight in pressure rate between Daniil Hunter and Will Anderson Jr. And I think the arrow, you know, Daniil Hunter, I think is what he is at this stage in his career, which is, again, one of the best pass rushers in the league. but will anderson jr is like he's still an ascending young player who is only getting stronger he's only getting more comfortable with the way that he wants to play so if those two guys continue to be the second and sick the best edge defenders in the league respectively on top of having derrick stingley on top of the rest of the db room looking good it's just there's no reason for me to believe that this is not going to be like a top five defense again i was in houston

5:04Robert Mays: not in houston i went to houston texans training camp in west virginia they were at the green Breyer for a few days, that resort I've visited with all of these teams, which is the first division that's true about, but what they were trying to sell me when I was there in West Virginia is that Daniel Hunter's better than he was last year. And along with Will Anderson Jr. being an ascending player, it was mostly in the run game. You know, what they're asking him to do as a run defender is very different than a lot of what he was being asked to do in that Minnesota system over the last couple of years.

5:33Robert Mays: And so they feel like Daniel Hunter is slated to be an even more impactful run defender and Will Anderson, it's been an incremental development for him as a pass rusher. You know, he's a speed to power guy. And last year, I think a lot of the work that he was doing was essentially extend shed. You know, that was what I can. I get off of blocks in order to kind of make that hustle sacks, but sacks that aren't necessarily a product of me sequencing together a lot of moves still mostly rooted in power this year. It feels like this entire off season is when he's really been adding some tools to the toolbox and diversifying what the rush plan might look like.

6:08Robert Mays: And on top of that, when I was there, he looked like a superhero. There are some guys, like when you see them in pads, they just look like they're a completely different species. Aaron Donald is like that. Miles Garrett is like that. When I saw Will Anderson on the practice field for the Texans, I was like, that guy looks different than even he has looked in the past. And so the fact that we could see better versions of those two guys this year than we saw last year combined with all of the other talent on this defense is a horrifying proposition for everyone else in this division the fact that both of those

6:41Dave Helman: guys might be better like absolutely terrifies it like will anderson jr again like he he's about to turn 24 years old and we already i think everybody in the world thinks he's like a top eight pass rusher and if he's going to get a little bit better be able to sync with uh some of this stuff a little bit better like he is he has always to me been a little bit of like a if you slightly shrunk Khalil Mack just in terms of play style the things that he's really good at and like if he continues to build on that then yeah man he's going to be an absolute superstar and you're going to have a defense that has like top five players at the two most important positions in

7:16Robert Mays: the world yeah Stingley has played phenomenal football last year we know what Derek Stingley is and something they think that there's going to be a layer to this defense this year that couldn't be last year is that coming into last season, they were excited about Kamari last year. They knew he was going to be a starting caliber corner. Now they feel like there's even more stuff that they can put on his plate. And if they're going to leave him in more isolated situations, kind of pack the paint in the middle of the field, because the two areas of slight concern linebackers in coverage and then the safety depth on this team.

7:45Robert Mays: So if your corners and your pass rushers can make up for some of those other relative weaknesses, that's how this defense feels impenetrable. Even if personnel wise, there are a couple of spots we feel slightly less excited about what you can put on the plates of all of the elite or ascending to elite players on this team, make everything else that's not quite as good matter much, much less. And it kind of feels like that's the position they're trending toward as an overall unit.

8:11Dave Helman: And I really think that specifically because, and this is something we've talked about with them all the time since D 'Amico Ryan's got there because everything is so fast and so violent. I think that also kind of helps you make up for like, you know, maybe our safety depth isn't what we want, or maybe linebackers aren't what they want in coverage. But it's like, if you're consistently hitting people, if you're consistently getting in the backfield, your pass rushers are making quarterbacks terrified all the time. You can get away with being a, we're going to make a couple more splash plays than we give up style of defense while also like still generally having like high success rate and all that jazz.

8:43Robert Mays: And there are a couple of the guys that are young and I do think still kind on getting their footing and what types of players they're going to be. I feel that way about Kalen Bullock, who had some really impressive flashes at safety over the back half of last season, the range that he has in the back and the back half of when he's the post safety and some of those man looks, but also what he can do, like dropping down in some of those quarters looks, the Miami game is the one that really sticks out where you just feel him in the middle of that defense. And then Jalen Petrie is, there are a couple of these nickels that for teams that really want to live in nickel.

9:13Robert Mays: And the two guys that come to mind specifically for me are Jalen Petrie and Cooper DeGene, where they're these bigger guys who actually have more safety type bodies, but aren't that limited in coverage. And because so many of these teams are transitioning to, we have a nickel nickel look, maybe with a little bit of an undersized nickel. And then we have a big nickel look for teams that can be both with one player. It's just such an advantage. And I think Petrie is one of those guys, like for a lot of these teams, if you're going to get a team in nickel you want to be able to grind them down in the run game petrie is not somebody you're going to very easily grind down in the run game and so it just puts this team at such an advantage compared to the other ones that want to live in those four two five nickel looks and he's also you know he's

9:56Dave Helman: a year four player so i think we are like slightly less enthused about like oh what is his development curve but he's still relatively new to the nickel spot like he was safe for that exactly and so he's for him to like get another full year under his belt playing that being a little bit closer to the line of scrimmage it's just like there's a chance that he takes a step and if he takes a step then you're talking about the second best corner in the league on the outside with Derek Stingley Kamari Laster who is about as good a number two corner as you can get and then one of the the bigger stronger nickels in the league like it's just even if we have some questions about what the other safety spot might look like next to Bullock like if you're hitting four out of five

10:30Robert Mays: that's that's a pretty good spot to be in a lot of defenses around the league they feel like they have to react to what the offense is doing right you're kind of on the back foot you have to be nimble in how you're accounting for it. It's like, okay, based on what the offense is doing, what sort of coverages are we going to run that the way that that travels is different for the Texans? Like I care. I don't think that there's a defense in the NFL. The Browns were like this a couple of years ago where they're just a you defense where it's just like, it doesn't really matter what you want to do.

11:01Robert Mays: Like you, we're going to do whatever we want to do. And that kind of feels like the where the Texans have trended toward and I am very excited to watch what year two of the FU Texans defense actually looks like I can't get enough of them can't get enough my we don't spend a ton of time on this because we're going to hit on it in a bunch of different areas but I think the defense just in a vacuum is probably what I'm most excited about the other element that I'm just looking forward to is what is CJ Stroud going to look like in an offense that isn't actively folding in on itself because that's what was happening in the back half of last year this Texans offense last season led the league in unblocked pressures.

11:38Robert Mays: I mean, you just watch how teams were picking on them in pass protection. And this is beyond the offensive line talent. And we'll talk about how both of those things get weighed as we hit some of these other categories, but getting to a place where he's going to have a little bit more freedom, where they're going to be in a position where they can make sure that at least the structure of it is sound. Even if the talent isn't quite where we want it to be at some of these positions, are we at least giving ourselves an honest shot with the rules and how this thing is built from the ground up. I'm just excited to see him potentially, hopefully be able to bounce back in those sorts of circumstances, considering how bad it looks for a majority of last year.

12:18Dave Helman: Yeah. Like I, I just, just have a chance to block everybody on a given play. Like there were just so many times last year where they had, you know, no interest is probably the wrong way to frame it, but they were clearly just letting so many guys through. And it was a lot of like oh well you know we'll throw hot and it'll be fine and it's like that's cool but if your only answer to a lot of blitzes and pressures is like oh we'll just throw hot every time well shit man you better be Tom Brady and I love CJ Stroud but he's just not that caliber of player yet and there's just really few guys who have ever been that in NFL history so I'm very excited for them to hopefully be something a little bit different and give him a little bit more of a chance to actually play quarterback because I think that was one thing that we kind of did see one of what impressed me with CJ Stroud really early on is that even though the offense was constricting in some ways during his rookie year, he was not a guy who was ever under center or ever did the turn your back play action stuff.

13:10Dave Helman: And like he immediately did that week one against the Ravens in his rookie year. And that to me was like, he can clearly play different ball than we saw from him in college. And so I'm now very excited to see him play different ball than we've seen him play his first two years in the NFL.

13:23Robert Mays: We'll talk about this in a bunch of different ways over the course of the rest of these categories. We don't need to linger on it here. let's get to the swing points for the 2025 Texans for all of these teams we're talking about a couple areas where the season might pivot one way or the other what was your answer with Houston

13:38Dave Helman: for me it's just like do any of these path catchers that they brought in give them something Nico Collins is sight unseen forget about it he's going to be a top like seven NFL receiver he's going to be amazing the other guys it's a lot of like we hope it works you know Christian Kirk I think has been a solid player for a long time in his career but he's coming off of I think it was a pretty major shoulder injury to end last year. Obviously, we're not going to get Tink Dell for this year based on the injury that he had last year. And so between an injured Christian Kirk coming off of his injury and then two day two rookies in Jalen Knoll and Jaden Higgins, there's just kind of a lot of uncertainty.

14:14Dave Helman: And that was kind of what we saw with the unit last year after Diggs got hurt, Dell got hurt. There was just a lot of guys that they didn't know after Nico Collins, who was getting the ball. And I'm not saying I'm worried that that's where we're going to arrive this year, but with as much uncertainty as there is, there's a chance, but there's also a chance that like one of these rookies is amazing. And Christian Kirk looks perfectly fine. Yeah.

14:34Robert Mays: I don't know how the pieces are all supposed to fit together. And that's not a criticism. I think it's mostly just because I don't have a good handle on Jaden Higgins as a player. I didn't love him as a prospect. And so I think that you look at the traits and I completely understand the appeal of the traits. He's big, he's fast, he's long. He's actually a decent route runner, but there are elements of his game that I found a little bit frustrating. And so the rosy outlook with him was harder for me to see than somebody ironically like Jayla Noel, who I liked much better because, and this is a problem with me.

15:05Robert Mays: I'm not a scout, but when I watch college players, I think a perfect manifestation of this is how I enjoyed Derek Harmon, which I'm very sad right now, more than somebody like Kenneth Grant or Walter Nolan. And it's because when I watched Derek Harmon, I was like, that guy's good now. Like I watch what he's contributing now. And I get too rooted in that because it's more about practicality than it is about seeing the vision and traits of the player, which is what scouting is. And I kind of felt that way about Jaden Higgins versus Jay Leno. And so how he's supposed to fit with Nico Collins and if he's going to be more of like a traditional boundary receiver, does that free you up to do some different things with Nico Collins?

15:45Robert Mays: And, you know, we mostly have seen Christian Kirk in the slot when he was in Jacksonville. But if this is going to be a team that uses a lot of condensed formations, can he play in 12 personnel and still be utilized the same way? I don't know. Like, I just do not know what the deployment and the rotation and the usage is going to look like for all of these guys. I believe it can work. I think they have enough talent to get there. I just don't know structurally what it's supposed to look like yet.

16:09Dave Helman: I don't either. And again, like, I think a lot of it is going to come down to like, how much do they want to put Kirk outside? because I think the worst parts of his career were when teams put him too much outside. I do think it's something he can do because he can burn. Obviously, he's a pretty good downfield threat. So if that's something they want to do to free up Collins a little bit, I think that could help. To me, and Jaden Higgins was a player I was a little bit up and down on as well. But to me, I think the sell is you want him to be Michael Pittman, where the hands are really good. He's smooth for a bigger guy.

16:37Dave Helman: He can kind of play in the slot. He can kind of play outside. Probably not as physical as you would like for his size, but like still generally checks enough of the boxes. And like, I think for the Colts for a long time, that being your number one receiver was a little bit of an issue, but with Houston, that's not a problem when you have Nico Collins. And so I think like that to me seems like the vision or should be.

16:55Robert Mays: I like that actually, like on some like intermediate crossing routes of Christian Kirk can be more of your vertical guy. And then Nico can just be your do it all X receiver. Your manufactured touches go to him. I do get that. I also think there would just be more personnel diversity with this team just because of where, not more than they showed last year, but more than Nick Caley would have shown with the Rams, just because Caley does have that background with the Patriots. And we'll talk about that a little bit later as well. From my swing point here, it's just can this team run the ball? And this is to me a separate consideration than the quality of the offensive line.

17:29Robert Mays: They could not run the ball last year when they had, I think objectively better offensive line talent than they have this year. I think this was a structural issue. It was the way the run game was built. Do you know the Texans had a worse rushing success rate per next gen than the Raiders last year?

17:44Dave Helman: Okay, no, but when you started to say, did you know they had a worse rushing success rate than, I was like, it's going to be the Raiders, dude. It has to be. They were dead last in the NFL.

17:54Robert Mays: That's hard to do based on how bad the Raiders run game was. And Joe Mixon was a part of this last year. Joe Mixon played really good football last year for the Texans. And now you're removing him from the equation. So this almost feels based on the fact that we're likely going to see five new starters and five new spots for the Texans offensive line this year. And we'll get to that group in a second. Plus, we're removing Joe Mixon from the equation. This is truly a test of how much the construction of the run game is going to matter because you're changing out everything else in ways that probably make it worse if you're just looking at it in an objective way.

18:32Robert Mays: So I am very interested on the quality of this run game, considering how different and diminished a lot of the component parts feel.

18:40Dave Helman: That really is crazy when you frame it that way. Like the most the most stable part of what they had last year. The only like holdover part of their run game is going to be what, like Dalton Schultz counting as your inline tight end. Like if that's the only holdover part of your run game, that's kind of crazy. Like even, you know, we can say we're removing Joe Mixon from it, but it's not even like the guy that they're putting in was a big contributor for them last year. It's Nick Chubb, who the only thing that this Houston Texans rushing offense did a little bit last year was Mixon could get you a 20 yard gain every now and then.

19:11Dave Helman: Nick Chubb at this career at this stage in his career is probably not doing that. And like Damian Pierce behind him has never really been that caliber of player. It's just a bizarre. That's okay, though.

19:19Robert Mays: Can Chubb get you six? Like, can he get you fives and sixes? I think would be so much better for this run game. And even if you want to argue that it's a lateral move offensive line talent wise and with Ursary and him being as big as he is, if he's the left tackle, he gives you a lot in the run game. I'm totally fine conceding that if it's a lateral move offensively, we're still getting worse probably at running back with mixing to Chubb. And so it is going to be an experiment about what the build of this run game can do for this group overall. Let's get to what is keeping us up at night about the 2025 Houston Texans.

19:53Robert Mays: What is a source of anxiety for you when it comes to this team?

19:57Dave Helman: I mean, we just teased it, but that offensive line, man, five new starters at all of these spots.

20:02Robert Mays: And it's like you could have you guys five new pieces, right? If Titus Howard does end up becoming the right tackle.

20:09Dave Helman: Right. And like if you I think if you went into some sort of offseason and said, yeah, this team just swapped out five new starters, you would be like, wow, they must have paid someone crazy money in free agency. and they must have spent a first round pick on one on an offensive lineman. The Texans did neither of those things like they spent. They threw a bunch of different little darts in free agency and like Cam Robinson, like sort of counts as like a mid range swing. And then they drafted Ariante Urseri in the second round. But these are not like premium. This is going to solve a problem type of players.

20:41Dave Helman: So you have that aspect of it. And then you also have the aspect of I think we all went in going, OK, one of these young guys that they had last year will be able to establish a spot and they'll be able to improve. Blake Fisher has already been moved out of the lineup. And I think both Juice Scruggs and Jarrett Patterson are potentially not going to be in the starting lineup. Like it's just, it's really, really hard to look at this unit and get that excited about anything other than Ursary being able to step in and take a spot.

21:08Robert Mays: And I'm open to that. I think no matter what happens, he's probably gonna be a downgrade from what Laramie Tunsil was. Laramie Tunsil, despite what Texans fans have tried to tell us, is not a bad football player. I understand he's been frustrating. There have been some penalties. He's been banged up, all that. Laramie Tunsil, you could still do a lot worse at left tackle. If a first year is passable there as a second round pick, I think that's a win. If you can live with him at that spot, I think that's a win. Titus Howard at right tackle, we've seen him play well there. We've seen him be rewarded for the way that he's played there.

21:38Robert Mays: I'm happy with that. The interior guys is where I'm like, all right, let's talk about this. Lakin Tomlinson at left guard. If your argument is that the build of the Seahawks offense last year was so bad and set their offensive line out to dry so bad that you can get a better version of Lakin Tomlinson than what he was at the Seahawks last year. I'm willing to hear that argument. I'm not willing to hear the argument for Ed Ingram. If he ends up becoming the right guard, because that was not the case. We watched him in Minnesota for the last couple of years. The Vikings spent so much money to have not Ed Ingram as their right guard anymore this offseason by bringing in Will Fries.

22:15Robert Mays: And then Jake Andrews is somebody that his background is really interesting in this context. He actually in college, Cole Popovich, the offensive line coach for the Texans, was at Troy when Jake Andrews was there. And then he was with the Patriots. And so the way that the Texans offensive line and pass protection rules are going to work is very New England based because of Kaylee and Popovich's background. So clearly it's somebody that understands the system, understands how they want to play. But this is somebody we've never really seen play in the NFL before. So there are just so many questions here that even if you're trying to spin it optimistically, you cannot tell yourself that story to that degree.

22:55Dave Helman: And even with the Lake and Tomlinson thing, if you want to say that, like, oh, Seattle, you know, that was a big issue. and structurally they were bad too and maybe we can fix some of that stuff I'm pretty sure this is team three in three years for Lakin Tomlinson and he's an older guy like it's just I the the veteran stopgap guard route was Kevin Zeitler and this team did not go out and do that they they went a rung down with Lakin Tomlinson so it's just yeah this entire interior the only sell is that like attitude wise I guess Ingram and Lakin Tomlinson are really big and and maybe that's what they want to go for, but like you got to be good and big.

23:29Dave Helman: And I just, that part of it, I struggle with.

23:32Robert Mays: If the past protection rules are better, can everything else matter a little bit less? I think that's what you have to tell yourself about this group. What's keeping me up at night. We don't have to spend a ton of time on this because I don't know if I'm totally there with it. It's just one of those, like, I don't want this to be true things. And so I think that's why it's causing me a little bit of anxiety. Does what happened last year linger with CJ Stroud in terms of the effects that it had. I mean, you watched him in the back half of last season and I thought that he played admirably in that Chiefs game in the playoffs, but even in that game, he was sped up.

24:04Robert Mays: He was sped up in the back half of the season and that led to some really rough moments and really rough stretches. There were some sprays that we had not seen from him as a rookie and just some of the pocket movement, navigation, comfort stuff that I think was actually a strength of his as a rookie really started to deteriorate. And I hope that if the circumstances are better, we just forget that ever happened. But with these young quarterbacks, there are times where when you spend long enough in a situation like that, it starts to get imprinted on the way that you play. And I just really, really hope that's not the case.

24:40Robert Mays: So I don't think this is something that's like fully formed as a problem yet, but it's just something that's kind of lingering in the back of my mind as I think about what last year could do to still impact this version of the Texans.

24:52Dave Helman: Yeah, I think I would be less scared of it if I felt some degree better about the offensive line this year. Like if I could go into this season for sure and be like, OK, last year was clearly a blip. The offensive line will be a little bit better. He'll go back to what he was as a rookie and we'll all be fine. But I'm not confident that the offensive line is going to be that much better. and we just might end up in a spot where he is getting just shelled for four quarters again. And hopefully it won't be as bad in terms of the unblocked pressures, but it still does scare me a little bit. Like the biggest issue to me when he kind of had some of those issues last year, he was a little bit more skittish in the pocket.

25:24Dave Helman: But with the spray specifically, he kept throwing at people's feet. Like he just and he's still doing that.

25:30Robert Mays: If you watch the preseason, there are some low throws in the preseason and low misses are better than high misses. Right. But I still just like I watch some of that even in the preseason. And I'm like, I, it just worries me a little bit. Like I am still very much a CJ Stroud believer, but they're just like these little nuggets that I just cannot eject from my brain based on how last season went. And some of the early stuff that we've seen, just the little glimpses.

25:53Dave Helman: Yeah. Like I still have long-term faith, but it is back in my mind. It's back in my mind.

25:58Robert Mays: The one other little thing, if we want to treat that as like half of a what's keeping me up at night, just the depth in the spine of the defense, I do think is worth pointing out. CJ Gardner Johnson. He actually got hurt the day I was there. It wasn't as bad as they originally might've thought. So hopefully he'll be back sooner rather than later, but safety depth is a concern for this team, even before CJ Gardner Johnson got hurt. And they were aware of that. And then I think if you look at the linebacker group, just especially in coverage with Toto, and then you look at the interior players, they're thrilled with how Sheldon Rankins has looked considering how bad his season was last year when he was dealing with all of that health stuff.

26:35Robert Mays: So they're really excited about him. But Danico Autry is coming into the season a little bit banged up. And I do think settle on Mario Edwards have been solid for them as part of this system. So I think they can get by. But relatively, I think those two areas in the spine of the defense are probably the general weaknesses compared to what they have at those other spots.

26:54Dave Helman: They just in the way that we've talked about some other addressers and stuff, they have a lot of guys who if they were your third best defensive tackle, you would feel so happy about it. It's just that the entire room is made up of that. And it's like, you would love if there was just one guy where like all three downs, we can really get something out of him. And that does worry me a smidgen with those guys.

27:12Robert Mays: They've done such a great job of getting the most out of the people that have rolled through that building now. So even like Tommy Togiai, who's like their third or fourth, like their fifth or sixth defensive tackle right now, had some nice moments in the preseason. They're excited about what Daryl Taylor can be in this scheme. Like this system has done such a good job of getting the most out of defensive linemen when they kind of get rewired in the correct way. So I have faith that they'll spit out on the other side. Okay. In that spot, it's just one thing to think about with the quality of the roster heading into the season.

27:41Robert Mays: What are you watching the first month of the year with the Houston Texans? We're hitting this question with every team.

27:48Dave Helman: I'm just, I'm excited for CJ's trial to, you know, a little bit like we talked about earlier, have some autonomy behind the, the, the line of scrimmage and really make this offense his own. You know, Steven Ruiz of the ringer wrote a really good piece and got a little bit of access to like, okay, what are they actually going to ask of him? And CJ Stroud kind of flatly said, like, yeah, I couldn't change a whole lot in the first two years of what I was doing in the NFL. And again, there are benefits and drawbacks to that. The benefits are just like it's like, OK, you technically always have an answer.

28:15Dave Helman: But it's just when things were going so wrong for them, getting to the hot every play was just not a good answer. And I think now getting them to a spot where CJ Stroud really feels like he's going to take ownership of it. I'm pretty excited for that because he does seem like a guy who the give a shit factor is like insanely high. And those are kind of the guys I want to hand the keys to the car. So maybe in year one, it doesn't look fantastic and he doesn't have all the answers and he's doing stuff a little bit wrong. But I think for the long term growth of what you want him to be by the time he's 26, 27, really hitting that like mental peak, I think this is like a necessary step for his development.

28:51Robert Mays: There aren't that many teams anymore that put as much on the quarterback as the New England system does. And I think that kind of leads me to what I'm watching the first month of the season is just what the Nick Caley offense is and what middle ground it reaches between his background in New England, his background with the Rams. And the New England system, everything is on the quarterback historically, that like Earhart Perkins offense and the way that they would structure things. The quarterback sets, it does all the mic points, handles all the protections, can change any of the protections.

29:19Robert Mays: And the way that a lot of progressions work within that offense, the quarterback is making decisions based on man zone, based on one high, two high. And in the modern NFL, it's actually become difficult to play like that just because there's so much disguise that you can't really make those decisions quite as quickly or as correctly as you used to. So when Kaylee went to Los Angeles, it's a completely different system for how the quarterback progressions work. It's a pure progression-based offense where you're kind of sweeping the board from left to right, and you're not putting a lot of those pre-snap decisions on the quarterback.

29:51Robert Mays: So I do think that we're going to get to a place where it's kind of a hybrid between the two, where the protection system gives the quarterback all that autonomy, And then you tried to make it a little bit easier for him with the way that the quarterback progressions work. And so how they end up blending all of those worlds. I'm really excited to see what it looks like. I think in theory, it can work if done correctly, which this is just like this.

30:13Dave Helman: That sounds a little bit like how the Lions offense works truthfully. And so they can get to some version of that success.

30:20Robert Mays: So the Lions offense is a perfect example of this. The Lions offense, the base protection rules are very similar to the Shanahan rules, which is like the jet protection worlds. but Jared at the line of scrimmage, if he wants to, he can change it. If he wants to flip it, he has the control to flip it in ways that some Shanahan quarterbacks do not. And so how teams are building in flexibility and nimbleness into their pass protection plans, I think was a story last year when you look at teams that underperformed and it will be a story this year when you look at teams over underperforming. And I think the Texans specifically will be a very interesting test case when it comes to this.

30:53Robert Mays: The last thing when it comes to the Rams world and how it might creep into what the Texans are. Xavier Hutchinson is like perfectly built to be that physical, they get out blocking wide receiver and that sort of system. And I know that the Texans ran a bunch of condensed formations and stuff last year, but I think that he has a role within this offense. And he's just somebody that we haven't mentioned quite yet, even though we've talked about most of the players on the roster. What does success look like for you with the 2025 Houston Texans?

31:24Dave Helman: when the division more convincingly, which effectively means like the defense maintains its level and the offense looks functional again instead of whatever the hell that we got last year.

31:34Robert Mays: Yeah, I think when the AFC South and just steady the ship on offense, is the offense consistently giving itself a chance, even if there are gaps we have to fill in with the talent along the offensive line? Is the structure of it, the plan of it, the way that this thing is put together, does it make sense? and is it giving their players the best possible chance? If that's the case and they win the division, then I would feel very good about where this team is headed over the next couple of years. We're going to take our first quick break and then come back with the Indianapolis Colts. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for?

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36:26Robert Mays: our preview for the 2025 Indianapolis Colts they're off season in 60 seconds hired Lou Anarumo as their defensive coordinator Chris Hewitt as their past game coordinator from the Baltimore Ravens signed Cam Bynum four years 60 million at safety Traverius Ward three years 54 million at corner signed Daniel Jones one year 14 million losses in free agency Will Fries, Dio Adengbo, Ryan Kelly all of whom landed in the NFC North Notable draft picks, Tyler Warren in the first round, 14th overall at tight end. JC Tuamalo, second round, 45th overall at defensive end. And Justin Wally, cornerback in the third round, he is unfortunately out for the season with a torn ACL.

37:04Robert Mays: We've started all the other previews for each team with what we're excited about watching. It's not that there's nothing to be excited about with the Colts, but we have to start with the swing point on this Colts team. because in no capacity have we talked about the decision to start Daniel Jones over Anthony Richardson because it happened as we got into our division previews. We're not going to start the Colts discussion anywhere else. This is the crux of the Colts discussion. It is the swing point for how this season is going to go. When you heard about the Daniel Jones choice and you thought about what this means for the 2025 Colts, how did you process this?

37:40Dave Helman: It just to me a little bit felt like rolling over to die. like it just like I just don't I understand that starting Anthony Richardson was also probably a death sentence with the way that he had been playing he did not look good again in the preseason even when he's played over the past couple years if you want to sell yourself from the highs which I'll be honest I have done at certain points I loved him as a prospect I love some of the stuff he showed as a rookie but he's also never on the field he's consistently banged up part of that is the way that he plays where he's never giving up on plays he's running himself into contact all the time.

38:10Dave Helman: So you have all of those factors. And I get why that would feel a little bit bad going into a year that feels like might be your last chance as either a GM or a head coach to really keep things together. You don't want that level of volatility. But man, Daniel Jones in 2025, I just I feel like I know that I'm going to get the kind of bad play that you would get probably out of Anthony Richardson.

38:33Robert Mays: But I think that is at the core of this. I think that's at the center of all of this is that at least they know reliably what they're going to be getting week in and week out.

38:42Dave Helman: And I don't think Gardner Minshew like rationale.

38:46Robert Mays: And this team almost made the playoffs with Gardner Minshew. I think that's kind of where they are right now. This is a combination of wanting consistency and about crawling into self-preservation. I think both of those two things are happening at the same time. If you just measure the overall quality, if we just put like a number on it at the end of the year, Anthony Richardson versus Daniel Jones. I think it would probably be a similar number. The difference is the Daniel Jones line would be a straight line the entire year. And the Anthony Richardson line would look like a sin graph where it would just be like a sign graph.

39:20Robert Mays: It would just be like going up and down around the straight line. And they just didn't want that anymore. I think they just wanted something that felt a little bit more consistent if it was underwhelming. And we'll see how this ultimately plays out. And I don't think we have to dig into like the mistakes made here what they'll tell you i think is they regretted him playing him as early as they did they wish that they had waited to play him the thought was that he was ready for it early on like he didn't have a wristband that first training camp i think you and i both believed in like the bones of what he was as a quarterback like the way he moved around the pocket and just he didn't look uncomfortable even if there were accuracy issues.

39:58Robert Mays: Like I trusted the bones of what he was as a player. I just don't think some of the operational elements have come along at the rate that they've wanted to combined with issues about buy-in about work habits and then some stuff like what we saw in the, in the preseason game. Like when he got destroyed on that mixed that, on that missed hot to his right side in the preseason game, I think it was over. I think that's just one of those moments where it's like, we cannot count on him to do what we're asking of the quarterback. And we are too up against the wall when it comes to our job security. And the rest of the players on this offense are too good for us to be living with this at quarterback.

40:41Robert Mays: We think we can get by with Daniel Jones and that's what we're going to do. The veracity of that we can argue with because I have serious doubts about it, but I think that That is the thought process and the mindset that has led the Colts to this place.

40:57Dave Helman: And I do kind of get that specifically in the sense that like Shane Steichen is an offensive guy. So he wants someone who. Whether Daniel Jones can execute the offense is a different thing, but it can at least have everybody lined up the way that they're supposed to be lined up. And even that, again, I doubt the veracity of that even a little bit, but it is at least some degree better than like Anthony Richardson, where like he's just never. I think to get really good at all the operational stuff and to get really like good processing speed, you need to have played a lot, which I do think is why I think these these quarterback prospects who have played a good amount have been able to step into the league as they've just seen bullets fly for a lot longer than guys like Anthony Richardson, who had one year and then a bunch of on and off years in the NFL.

41:37Dave Helman: And so I think the fact that he's it's like a catch 22, right? He needs all of this time and all these reps to get good. but because he's bad and hurt all the time, he's never going to get those reps. And it's probably just like in this particular spot, maybe just never going to happen for him.

41:52Robert Mays: I think the problem is when you talk to guys that sat and you talk to coaches that have overseen these development plans for guys who sit early in their career, Matt Nagy, Matt LaFleur, people like that. Matt Nagy's stance on what the Alex Smith, Patrick Mahomes kind of relationship looked like in year one. It was Patrick Mahomes just learning how to be in the NFL, learning how to study, learning how he should be in meetings, learning the things that he should look out for. That has value. And I think them not giving Anthony Richardson the time to hone that stuff before we worried about the importance of the on-field experience, I think they would like to undo a lot of that.

42:33Robert Mays: The unfortunate part here is that you can't undo it. And in their minds, I think the best case scenario here is that Daniel Jones gets them to the playoffs. They all keep their jobs because of that. And they see enough progress behind the scenes with Anthony this year, with him getting to sit that they can play him next year. And that we get at once a playoff team that surprised and the quarterback plan and the quarterback experiment was not a failure. I don't know how possible that is. I don't think it's possible. But I think that is what they're trying to hang on to here because even if they made the playoffs.

43:10Robert Mays: And we've talked about this a lot this summer. How good do you have to be with Daniel Jones for the Anthony Richardson thing to no longer matter? And I just don't know if that exists on any sort of X, Y axis. Like, I don't know if that point is possible in the universe that we live in, but for them, it has to be possible because that's the reality that allows everyone to stay employed in Indianapolis.

43:33Dave Helman: I guess I'm also too, just at the point, like if you really were at the point where you wanted to sign a daniel jones and were a little bit scared of wanting to start anthony richardson it should have been at least just a little bit more ambitious than daniel jones then like who would it have been i signed sam darnold man even

43:52Robert Mays: like go trade for 30 million dollars a year if you do that you can no longer talk yourself into anthony anthony richardson like being a theoretical plan because the whole point is that i feel like I don't think they have. I don't think they've skipped that because if they've skipped that, you are telling ownership this part is over. And if you're telling ownership that the guy we drafted fourth overall is no longer part of the plans, I think that becomes very, very hard to justify your own existence.

44:22Dave Helman: That's that's OK. That's that's a good way to frame it. I still I don't know. It feels like when you signed any quarterback of that caliber, you kind of buried the hatchet there.

44:31Robert Mays: There are things to be excited about with this Colts team. And let's talk about them. What are you actually excited about watching with the 2025 Indianapolis Colts? Because I think there are some bright spots on this roster, despite how cloudy it might feel in the quarterback room.

44:45Dave Helman: Yeah, I think barring like terrible vibes and a locker room revolt, like the defense can be like pretty good. Like I still think Lou Anna Rumo is a really good play caller. And I think other than like maybe one or two spots on this, uh, the Colts defensive depth chart, like they have a lot of good players. They have waves and waves of edge rushers with the at least potential that Laetulatu could be like, you know, borderline Pro Bowl level player. And I think that that would go a long way for them. Their defensive tackle room with Grover Stewart and DeForest Buckner is honestly one of the best in the league.

45:16Dave Helman: Their linebacker room is a little bit thinner this year, but I think Zaire Franklin has really become a solid player. And then they hugely upgraded their secondary, signing Charverius Ward and Cam Bynum. And Cam Bynum specifically, we've talked a million times in this Atlanta room of defense. You need safeties who can solve problems and be in a number of different places the way that Jesse Bates was for them. Cam Bynum is not Jesse Bates, but in terms of guys that they were going to get this offseason, he's as close as they were going to get. Yeah.

45:42Robert Mays: And these defenses that are amorphous and they're asking a lot of the safety specifically when it comes to disguise and all the different things we're trying to do with the defenses that want to be funky. right like the defenses that want to be funky the vikings the cardinals what luan rumo was in his best days in cincinnati you need the safeties with the mental bandwidth to be able to make that work and that's exactly what cam bynum was and so it always made the most sense i mean that was one of my favorite fits in all free agency was cam bynum going to the colts they're still really excited about nick cross who is still like 23 years old or something crazy even though this is his fourth season and so there is a collective enthusiasm about the secondary and the pieces that they have.

46:21Robert Mays: I mean, Ward has been open about the fact that he just wasn't there last year. I mean, how could you be based on what he was dealing with his personal life? And he, when they've asked him to play man coverage, even in like the joint practices with the Ravens, he's looked really good. And so I do think that there is a decent amount of talent across this roster. And when you look at the front, especially, I think collectively this group is better than anything Lou ever had in Cincinnati. And he was able to work some real magic with those defenses. And I am curious to see what it looks like when he has this level of talent, especially up front compared to what it has been, especially the last couple of years with the Bengals when it doesn't matter what type of magician he was, that was never going to work.

47:04Yeah.

47:04Dave Helman: He had literally one piece last year with, with the Bengals. And this year he has, I mean, And again, they don't have necessarily a star pass rusher yet unless Laietulati takes that step. But they have, I mean, like Ebukam, when he's healthy, is good. Taequann Lewis, I think, is not that bad. Quidi Pei is like if he's, you know, he's a fine pass rusher. They drafted JT to Amalu in the second round. Like they've just got it's guys on guys. Like they just have so many that they can go to.

47:29Robert Mays: I think this is a quality as a pass rushing group and just a front in general where if you wanted that, you wanted them to play like the Texans. Right. And the Texans do bring a lot of some funky pressures. But I'm talking about, all right, four guys, let it rip. They're not that sort of group, but that's not the sort of group you need to be with Lou Anna Rumo. Like he's going to pour some gasoline on this thing. And I think there's enough fire here where you can get excited about what this group is when deployed in a way that you're going to be able to create some mismatches. I think they have enough talent to warrant excitement about that sort of situation.

48:03Robert Mays: And I do think that's what Lou Anna Rumo gives you. So I think this defense, you said they could be like one of those out of nowhere, top 10 sort of defenses this year. And I do believe that might be possible. The element of this that I'm excited about is I love the offensive skill position talent. Like that's part of why the quarterback thing is so frustrating is because I think that they have a lot of good players at the pass catching spots. And Jonathan Taylor is on this team. Like there's so there's so much collective talent. And I think the other part of this is that I think that the skill sets are diversified in a way that all the pieces kind of fit together in a way that makes sense.

48:42Robert Mays: You know, like Alec Pierce is your like big burner vertical down the field player, even though they do think that he's added a little bit of nuance and other areas to his game coming into this season. We know what Michael Pittman is a very solid piece of any receiving core. I love Josh Downs. Like I just I love Josh Downs. I think in any sort of like borderline normal NFL situation with like the 18th best quarterback play in the league every single week, Josh Downs would be like a pro bowl player. We've just never seen him since he developed into this guy in that sort of scenario in the NFL. And 80 Mitchell is, I don't want to fall for it again because there was a little bit of this last off season, but he has looked incredible in practice.

49:30Robert Mays: And I'm talking about clips I've seen from, you know, other practices. And then the practice when I was there, he just moves in a different way. Some of the down the field contested contorting plays that he is making the route running kind of wiggle that he brings to the position. There are some plays where you're watching him as an outside the numbers, like vertical player on some of those stems. And he looks like Brandon Ayuk. Like he has like that to his game. I think the problem last year is that he has some issues in the middle of the field. And so if they can kind of narrow the scope of what they're asking from him and just ask him to do the stuff that he's best at, there's something there, man.

50:11Robert Mays: And maybe we're going to get fooled again because he's uniquely positioned to be an awesome training camp player. But I just I'm willing to hang on to my 80 Mitchell stock because of how dynamic he has consistently looked this year.

50:27Dave Helman: i'm probably a little bit less enthusiastic there he is and i think it's because of the particular ways that he struggles like he was one of those receivers who him and anthony richardson and this is also partly an anthony richardson thing i don't know if they ever agreed on where ret was supposed

50:41Robert Mays: to be last year like not one time that's just you're asking for trouble with you when you're

50:45Dave Helman: throwing those two into the mix together yeah it was not good and so maybe that if that changes a little bit with daniel jones and he is uh a little bit more consistently in the right spot and those two can connect I can start to see it because his best 10 plays in a given season look as good as anybody it's just that like those might be the only 10 good plays because like he's just that kind of volatile receiver but if he can really turn it up I think that would be nice I do think it helps that I think because they drafted Tyler Warren this year there's actually like less pressure on AD Mitchell to be a super good player for them like they have a different guy who now knocks him down the totem pole a little bit and I do think that should help his development a smidgen

51:23Robert Mays: I think Warren just as like an outlet within the offense, somebody you can scheme up some easy touches for. That's just something they haven't really had. Like they've got a lot of explosive players and even Michael Pittman is kind of like an intermediate slasher type. And so being able to just have Tyler Warren access those areas of the field collectively, it's it's a really good group. Like the best case scenario for this group is one of the deeper, more flexible pass catching rooms in the entire league. and we'll just see if they get the requisite quarterback play for any of it to matter. What is keeping you up at night other than the quarterback about the Indianapolis Colts?

52:00Dave Helman: Yeah, other than the thing staring me in the face at the quarterback position, it is to be probably the new center and right guard in Tanner Bordelini and Matt Gonsalves. And I think there's a reason to be excited about these players. Like, I think Bordelini has showed that he can be a pretty good athlete and he can do some stuff. gonsalves actually ended up playing a lot of tackle last year when he had to insert into the lineup for both of their tackles uh missing time so he didn't play as much guard which he's going to end up playing this year but even for as much if you can sell yourself on that a little bit they're replacing ryan kelly and will fries who were two of the biggest ticket free agents uh in the league and like ryan kelly has been one of the best centers in the league for a very long time it's just you're asking for a whole lot putting these two new guys in the lineup when you don't have a quarterback who's going to help solve any of those issues for you.

52:48Dave Helman: And I just think that that could be a little bit spooky for them.

52:50Robert Mays: The only reason, and I think that, you know, Bordelini had some flashes last year where you can feel okay about it. And, but I think there are some organizations that they kind of just deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to cycling in new pieces upfront. And for as much trust as the Colts have eroded, when it comes to other things, they deserve some trust when it comes to developing and replacing interior offensive linemen. I mean, I've told this story before, but my concern a couple of years ago when they were just rolling with Will Fries again at right guard after his debut season and Chris Bauer just being like, it'll be fine.

53:29Robert Mays: Like we're going to be okay there. He was right. They've been less right about some of the other position groups when they've taken that approach, but along the offensive line specifically, they have consistently been right about those development plans, the success, the succession plans and keeping the quality of that group at a relatively high level. Tony Sperano jr. Is their offensive line coach. I think that there's a lot of collective belief in their ability to get that unit continuing to play at a high level, despite rotating out a couple of the component parts. We'll see. We'll see if that's justified, but I do think that there is some optimism that that group could be okay.

54:06Robert Mays: Uh, what's keeping me up at night is a little bit more existential, uh, than this. And we, we touched on it a little bit when we're talking about the quarterback stuff. I just worry that no matter how this goes, it's already over.

54:19Dave Helman: Exactly. I mean, that's why I said what I said in the beginning, like it just, they feel the vibes are very different from like Miami, but they, these are just one of these teams where I almost feel like the outcome for this season is like, it doesn't matter. It's already written.

54:34Robert Mays: I think the decision to play Daniel Jones is such an expression of being in self-preservation mode that there's really no way out. That's just where you are now. You're just in a spot where it's just about keeping jobs and about making sure that the season is good enough that you justify staying on into next year. And I think part of the complication with this is there's new ownership there now. like the dynamics, not the same ownership group, obviously, but Jim Mersey passing away. And then his daughter's taking over the team, like different people are in charge of making that decision. And so there are just enough layers to this where I'm worried that even if they can get by with Daniel Jones, and even if he's consistent enough where we can realize what sort of offensive talent collectively they have and how good of a play caller Shane Steichen is.

55:25Robert Mays: I just wonder if the way this Anthony Richardson thing went and the fact that Daniel Jones was their only alternative and tapping into Daniel Jones because it's like we need to get the most out of this season, the long-term future of the franchise essentially be damned. I just wonder if you can ever undo that in a way that matters.

55:44Dave Helman: I think to me, your decision at quarterback for any team cannot be both irrational and have no long-term upside. Starting Daniel Jones over Anthony Richardson is both completely irrational in terms of like trying to envision what the best case scenario is and there's no long-term upside like if he's if he does the sam darnold thing like he's probably just not going to be on your roster again and so it's just like and then anthony richardson who knows with all that it's just like and then even envisioning what is the best version of daniel jones like i know we got that 2022 season with the giants or 2023 whatever it was fake it was it was fake it was not real and he's been banged up since then like he's not even the same player that he was when he did that.

56:23Dave Helman: It's just I don't know, man. It's hard for me to get there.

56:26Robert Mays: What are you watching the first month of the season with the Indianapolis Colts?

56:32Dave Helman: I am at least a little bit interested to see the potential evolution for Shane Steichen. One, because obviously, you know, Daniel Jones is a considerably different quarterback than than Anthony Richardson was, and they were catering the offense to him, obviously. But I also think the bigger part of it to me is drafting Tyler Warren. this Colts team has had some of the worst tight end play in the league for the past I mean pretty much since Steichen has been there and even I think you could argue before that and so bringing in a guy like Tyler Warren who is not only like a a good tight end but a tight end who the whole point of him is like we can just spit the ball out to him and he's gonna be a problem for defenses I think that like alone kind of starts to shift where where you know how the offense functions

57:14Robert Mays: I'm just curious like what sort of levers they try to pull to get the most out of the pass catchers Like this is the type of group. It almost reminds me of how I'm framed the front where it's a group that's good enough where if you put them in the right spots, you can thrive with Shane Steichen. Specifically, when you think about the best offenses that Shane Steichen has coordinated, it was in Philadelphia where they didn't have to do anything. Right. And that's not a knock on Shane Steichen. I think one of the things I've appreciated about him throughout his career as an offensive coordinator is that Shane, I don't think has a need to show you how smart he is.

57:46Robert Mays: I don't think that's part of the way that he's wired or the way that his offenses play. If you told Shane going into a game, all you have to do is throw six goal balls to AJ Brown and your team will win this game 35 to six. He'd be like, cool. He would be willing to do that. And this group in Indy is not that where you can just roll off the bus and destroy people in a very simple way. but it is good enough that if you're pulling the right levers and pushing the right buttons, you can be dynamic and scary on offense. So I think the complexity of it, the motions, just how they'll be able to try to manufacture the right situations for these guys.

58:25Robert Mays: I do think that's in his bag. I just think it requires a slightly different build of an offense. That's a little bit more dynamic than some of the best ones that we've seen from chain seconds past.

58:36Dave Helman: And I think to that point, like if if we are living in a world where the most likely scenario is this this regime gets fired, if Steichen can at least show that he's a different kind of play caller and like teams are going to be reaching out to him after the fact, I think that's that's a pretty nice thing for him to have in his bag.

58:52Robert Mays: Yeah, I think that there is definitely a world we'll talk about that when we think about what success looks like, where this Shane Steichen leaves all of this without a lot of stink on him. Yeah. Considering like how bad it could potentially look. well I'm watching the first month of the season this could easily be what was keeping me up at night the Justin Wally thing people there were just so so bummed when he got hurt in training camp and tore his ACL because even as a third round pick he walked into that starting second outside cornerback job across from Charverius Ward and he was looking really good in practice he had a play in the Ravens joint practices where he was in Rashad Bateman's hip on a double move And it was just like, okay, this guy's going to be fine.

59:36Robert Mays: Like we, this is one spot where we kind of needed this to work because Juju Brents has been banged up because we've never really addressed those outside cornerback spots before signing Traverius Ward. And so the fact that in one off season, they potentially thought they could like fix that group after what it looked like last year and now losing him, you're kind of in desperation mode. Like they still have Juju Brents. They still have Jalen Jones who was there last year. and I just don't think they wanted those to be the solutions. And their fix of this was to sign Xavier Howard off the street after he didn't play last year.

1:00:12Robert Mays: He has a history with Luana Rumo in Miami, but that's not a good answer. If Xavier Howard is your answer, it's a bad question in 2025. And so I just don't know how that's going to go. Collectively, I do think there's a lot of reason to be enthusiastic about the defense. This is the one spot where I'm like, I don't know, man. So I'm watching whether or not this becomes a problem and how quickly it becomes a problem.

1:00:35Dave Helman: And it probably will. Like the rest of this cornerback room outside of Ward is, well, and obviously Kenny Moore at the nickel, but the outside cornerback spots, it's a lot of like, if this guy had to play for a month because someone's hurt, fine. But now you're walking into week one that way. And that's just, it's a not great place to be.

1:00:52Robert Mays: This is a fraught question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What does success look like for the 2025 Indianapolis Colts?

1:00:59Dave Helman: does it look like anything can you picture it what success looks like for the colts i just like

1:01:05Robert Mays: i'm gonna try my best to do this again okay i have to really twist myself to get here and i think it depends on what success for whom but let's say success for the stakeholders in the indianapolis colts organization for shan steik and for chris ballard for those guys on that staff if they make the playoffs and they have to they cannot go another year without missing the playoffs. I mean, it's been how long year? It's been like five straight years since they made the playoffs. They have to make the playoffs. And if we get to a point in that playoff push where we all agree, they are truly a quarterback away.

1:01:44Robert Mays: Like truly, we say that a lot about teams and it's very rarely true, but if that ends up being true and the defense top to bottom is a very good unit without a lot of personnel concerns. If that second corner is the only thing you're worried about. And we're like, well, we get Justin Wally back next year. And then you look at the offense and the line comes together in the right way. And the pass catchers are as dynamic as we want them to be. And it's structured in the right way. And Daniel Jones is good enough where this team wins 10 games. And they're like the 11th best offense in the league.

1:02:17Robert Mays: And you get to a wildcard round loss against the bills. And it's like, you know what? that game was tough. But what we did this year, if we figure out the quarterback spot, we have 21 other things that we feel good about and a play caller that we feel good about. That to me feels like success. I understand how remote the possibility is for all of those things to happen. But I do think that would be the best case scenario and keep these guys employed, even if there is a question of quarterback moving forward.

1:02:51Dave Helman: yeah when i said irrational that is exactly what i meant like in that scenario you need tyler warren to be brock bowers you need yeah yeah i was gonna say but what if he is he's probably not brock bowers exactly like that is not one of those yeah brock bowers is literally like a hundredth percentile outcome for any player like it's just it's it's hard man a lot of things that have to

1:03:13Robert Mays: line up it's just it's really really difficult to survive that sort of miss a quarterback again it's really difficult to do it. And I think that is the theoretical scenario where it might be possible, but I think realizing that scenario is, it's probably going to be pretty tough. Let's get to the Jacksonville Jaguars, our preview for the 2025 Jacksonville Jaguars. They're off season in 60 seconds. Hire James Gladstone from the ramps as their general manager, which we could spend an hour on that. And mostly how we got to that and not the Trent bulky situation. Hire Liam Cohen is their head coach.

1:03:50Robert Mays: hired Grant Udinski as their offensive coordinator. Anthony Campanile as their defensive coordinator. Brought in Shane Waldron as their passing game coordinator. Signed Patrick Macari, three years, 37 million. At guard. Signed Jordan Lewis to play the slot, three years, 30 million. Robert Hainsey to be their starting center, three years, 21 million. Eric Murray at safety, three years, 19 and a half million. Diami Brown, one year, 10 million. Chuma Odoga, Johnny Munt, Emmanuel Ogba to smaller deals. Traded Christian Kirk to the Texans. Lost Evan Ingram and Andre Sisco. Traded up for Travis Hunter at second overall.

1:04:19Robert Mays: gave up their 2026 first round pick to do it. Caleb Ransaw in the third round at cornerback, offensive guard Wyatt Milam in the third round, and then running back a base shield, Tootin in the fourth round. What are you excited to watch with the 2025 Jaguars?

1:04:36Dave Helman: I'm very excited to watch what Trevor Lawrence looks like in an offense that does not put him in a box by virtue of the other limitations in the offenses. That's probably the best way that I can frame it. Kind of similarly to the way that we were talking about CJ Stroud. And like what I mean by that is even when CJ Stroud or even when Trevor Lawrence was good in 2022, it was a lot of this like more spread than other teams. They were really pass heavy. It was a lot of the RPO stuff. And that just felt like, you know, Trevor is good at that stuff. But I would have liked them to marry stuff to what feels like a little bit more of an NFL offense.

1:05:11Dave Helman: In 2024, they kind of tried to do that. But the offensive line was so bad and the run game was so bad that Trevor kind of just felt like he constantly had to. OK, one, two, three, four, five, drop back, instantly chuck the ball 20 yards down the field. And that's just no way to play the game like you just can't be doing that in the NFL. and so I'm just excited to like again we'll talk about Liam Cohen and what the offense is is going to look like we'll talk about the offensive line all that stuff but if we can just get to a place where the offense feels some degree of put together and balanced and gives him a couple of more easy buzzings than he's ever had I think that could go a really really long way

1:05:48Robert Mays: I think that we spent a lot of time on these shows talking about the reasons that this ends up becoming the case, like why an offense feels hard and why an offense feels easy. But in this case, in framing why we're excited to watch this offense, going from a situation where the offense felt consistently hard all the time to an offensive system that made it feel consistently easy all the time for the quarterback. And that's not to take away from what Baker Mayfield did last year, but it's undeniable to watch the Bucs from last season and not see how frictionless the entire thing feels. and going from that, going from what the Jags had to a, even 90 % of that version of an offense.

1:06:31Robert Mays: I am excited to see what Trevor Lawrence might look like in that situation. Maybe he just doesn't have it. Maybe Trevor Lawrence just isn't going to get there, but I'm at least excited to see him in an offense where we might have a chance to find out.

1:06:45Dave Helman: Yes. That's all I will. All I want to see him to have like, what feels like a proper chance. And I do think that we're going to get that and like the the Baker Mayfield thing is funny last year too because like I don't think there's ever been a time in NFL history where a quarterback has thrown 40 touchdowns and like nobody considered him an MVP candidate but that's just because of by how by virtue of how the offense functioned and again we're we'll talk about why we probably won't get quite that in Jacksonville but again if we can get some of that in a way that we really have not gotten over the last couple years in Jacksonville again if I could at least I'm open to the idea that Trevor is not as good as I've wanted him to be for a long time.

1:07:21Dave Helman: But if I can at least get to the end of this year, and even if he has those same struggles, at least feel like, well, they gave him a chance and he couldn't do it. At least let me feel like he had a proper chance of proving himself.

1:07:31Robert Mays: Yeah, and I think that it just hasn't happened so far. But there have been stretches where that offense was good. The back half of the 2022 season, I think, is still kind of what I hang on to when I consider what he's capable of. But those offenses were never that smooth. And again, never that easy compared to what the best version of that Liam Cohen offense looks like. We talked about this a little bit on the quarterbacks at a crossroad show, just some of the details about what might be different for Trevor this year. And again, maybe why you can spin it to this can just be a better outcome. A couple of different things.

1:08:03Robert Mays: They're working on a lot of mechanical stuff with him. And a lot of it is footwork based, just like where his feet are pointed when he's making certain throws, because the sprays are a problem. Like even if remove all of the ecosystem concerns from it, the sprays and the accuracy and consistencies are one of his biggest problems. And that's something that hopefully you can control independent from everything else that's happening. And so I think some of the footwork stuff has been a focal point for them this off season. Can you make those sprays fewer and further between? And then the other part of this, that this is how you make an offense easy.

1:08:37Robert Mays: I think for the most part over the last few years, when Doug Peterson was there, the way that Trevor liked it when he was trying to figure out and decipher and get information from the defense was you spread it out for me and I'll see what I can figure out. I'll see like where a certain leverage is. And like, if I can get some tells that way, that's not how those offenses worked in Los Angeles. And it's not how the Minnesota offense work where Grant Udinski was or what the bucks were last year. They're trying to get information by pulling certain levers when it comes to formations and motions, it's much more condensed.

1:09:09Robert Mays: And so it can be a little bit of the learning process for quarterbacks when you're giving them all of those motions. By doing that right before the snap, it's very quick for you to be like, all right, what does this type of motion do to the body language of the nickel when we do this? And what does that mean about either the run fit or the coverage? And you kind of have to get to a place where the quarterback is comfortable with how much information he's extracting from all of that because you are asking him to do something that's a little bit different process wise. And so I think getting to that place does make things easier for the quarterback, but it's been something that they've had to work through just because it does feel different than a lot of the things that they were doing before.

1:09:52Dave Helman: I mean, comfort is the right way to put it because it's never been a matter of talent for Trevor Lawrence. Like he can, he can throw the shit out of the ball. It's a matter of like, is he confident in the things that he's seeing and comfortable with? And if he gets to a point with by week seven, he's very comfortable with all the motions and different formations that Liam Cohen is giving him. And he is just ripping the ball. We're going to get some version of like, he's kind of like if Jared Goff was an athlete in, in, in, in some ways. And so if they can get like that version out of him, I think that would be pretty successful.

1:10:21Robert Mays: But I think the biggest difference there is that Jared Goff is deadly, deadly accurate. And that is something that we just have not seen from Trevor Lawrence over the last couple of years is that sort of consistency. And it's funny in talking to offensive coaches about working with quarterbacks. And this is true of even like some of the best quarterbacks in the league. Sometimes you have to like incept them into trusting these ideas. Like you have to implant an idea in their mind and either convince them this is the best way to do it or somehow warp it so they think it's their idea. Like it's just the nature of coaching and it's the nature of trying to get the most out of these guys.

1:10:58Robert Mays: And so that push and pull, not even push and pull, but just the process of kind of introducing new ideas to your quarterback and getting him to a place where he understands, listen, I know this is weird and I know it maybe feels a little bit unnatural, but I promise I'm trying to make things easier on you by having you do it this way. And I'm not even sure there's been that sort of pushback with Trevor and Jacksonville, but I think with other quarterbacks, even really good ones, there sometimes is a resistance to these levers that make the game easier because it's just not something that they've done before.

1:11:31Robert Mays: And it's always funny to talk to coaches about some of the dynamics and what that feels like when they're working through it with guys and even some of the best quarterbacks in the league. That's true for the thing that I'm most excited about watching with this Jags team. It's very simple. I'm really excited about watching Brian Thomas Jr. and Travis Hunter play football with one another.

1:11:49Dave Helman: I mean, dude, it's just like they're going to be so, so sick. And like, I think the reason there's I mean, there's a million reasons to be incredibly excited about that. Brian Thomas Jr. is as explosive as it gets. But how much of what we have talked about with the Liam Cohen offense is like he just finds ways to spit the ball out to a guy on a screen. And it's like the best player. It's the best play that you can have. All you want to do with Travis Hunter, I think in year one as an offensive player is spit the ball out to him. And so if they can do that, have BTJ be their serious receiver, man, they could be really, really fun.

1:12:20Robert Mays: It's just a really, really good marriage of skill sets. Because Brian Thomas Jr. is like, he's as XE receiver as it gets, right? Like that is your big vertical, violent sort of outside the numbers presence. That's who he is. And he does that stuff in a way that very few receivers in the league do right now. Like him with like vertical push, there are a few guys scarier already after one season than what Brian Thomas Jr. was last year. And there aren't that many of those guys that you feel super good about in that role. And so allowing Travis Hunter to be in a role where you can put him in motion all the time, you can give him access all the time, those scheme throws that you're talking about, the way that Travis Hunter, the feel he has for zones and his ability to spatial awareness, ball skills, so many different things where it's a perfect complement to what Brian Thomas Jr.

1:13:13Robert Mays: already is, that to me is what really is so beautiful about it. the individual skill sets alone are gorgeous. When you put them together, it's perfect. It just makes perfect sense.

1:13:23Dave Helman: It's I mean, they are these receivers are not one to one to each other, but it's there's a little bit of the dynamic that you get with watching like A.J. Brown and Devonta Smith, where A.J. Brown is you're just like we're putting him in straight lines and he's going to be bigger and faster than the other guy. And you don't really have to think about it other than that. Whereas Devonta Smith is this more graceful. He's a slasher. His ball skills are phenomenal. And I think hunter is a little bit more explosive i think especially with the ball in his hands than devonta smith and smith is more refined obviously as a route runner but you just have that like pure monster physical player compared to this like slasher more elegant get into zones type of player that is just it really is like a perfect marriage if hunter can come along year one as a

1:14:02Robert Mays: offensive guy and just think about where the head coach and the offensive coordinator just were last year. Liam Cohen had Mike Evans and Chris Godwin and Grant Udinski had Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison.

1:14:15Dave Helman: That's a good one too.

1:14:16Robert Mays: Wow. It's not perfect, but I do think you can learn a lot of lessons for the types of things you were trying to do for Jordan Addison and the types of things you're going to be trying to do with Travis Hunter. And with Travis Hunter, it's just, you can get the ball in his hands for some of those scheme touches in a way that's more advantageous than it was with Jordan Addison, similar to like what the Bucks did with Chris Godwin. So I just think that there's a ton of stuff to be excited about when it comes to that. Let's get to the swing points for the 2025 Jacksonville Jaguars. Where could this season pivot for the Jags in your mind?

1:14:50Dave Helman: I think to me, it's probably the secondary. You know, I'm very, I'm very tempted to mention one of the million things on the offense, but I do think the secondary, there's a chance it can be nice. Like, you know, we'll see what we get from Travis Hunter. I think if he is the player that we think he is that could be the swing thing that makes them a really good unit but then like a lot of the other stuff I think is a little bit up in the air Jordan Lewis is a good nickel but he's changing teams and he's a little bit on the older side you just don't know how that stuff is going to go sometimes Tyson Campbell has been good when he's healthy he is often not healthy and so you just don't know how that's going to go or if like some of this injury wear and tear is going to really get on to him Jerry and Jones who they drafted in the third round last year I think he's got some stuff to him he's got some attitude to him but he's not necessarily to me like a true true difference maker he's a guy who needs to be your like third or fourth best DB not potentially your second just depending on how different things shake out so I think I can see the world where the cornerback room is really really good the safety room scares me a little bit but if the cornerback room really hits their like 85th percentile that could be enough to make me not really so worried about what the safeties look like when you look at certain

1:15:58Robert Mays: position groups on this team. I think I understand the thought process and how that they were built. And I actually think it's a very modern, like the way us nerds talk about football thought process when it comes to the secondary and the offensive line, we treat them like weak link systems, right? Like how many times have we heard that over the last 10 years as more analytical thinking has driven roster construction? The problem is when you do that and you're just kind of like shooting for the middle, it can always be worse when you're kind of just plugging holes and hoping to create a floor.

1:16:31Robert Mays: It can always be worse. And I think for both the safety room on this team and for the offensive line on this team, that's the case. We're kind of just shooting for something that we can work with. And if it ends up coming up a little bit short of that, you put yourself in a position that becomes a worrisome in a hurry.

1:16:48Dave Helman: Cause that's the thing. It's like creating a, a, a unit free of a weak link is fine. It's the NFL man. And by week seven, someone's going to go down and you're going to have a weak link. And so it would be nice that within those units you have a true difference maker. And I do at least think with, again, the secondary, if Hunter is who we think he is and they're playing him, you know, 65 percent of the time on defense, then maybe he is that guy for them. But again, that's that's also one where this is such a swing point because we don't know exactly how much they're going to play Hunter or where they're going to play him.

1:17:18Dave Helman: that it's just like, I might believe he's a great corner, but if he's only playing corner 35 % of the time instead of 70%, well, that changes the math on how I think about the secondary.

1:17:27Robert Mays: I will say, I do think that they like the depth they have along the offensive line specifically. Like Fred Johnson last year had to play a little bit for the Eagles when, I think it was Jordan Maillat, I missed like three or four games and Fred Johnson had to play some spot duty for them at left tackle. Wasn't always pretty, but you can get by with it. And so I think that was a thought there. Chumadoga has played a little bit. So they have two guys, I think, that can provide a little bit of depth at tackle specifically. And then they drafted Milo in the third round. And so I think the hope there, part of this is driven by the experience that Jabez Gladstone had when he was in LA, I think, where when that offensive line started getting banged up, you felt it in a very real way.

1:18:06Robert Mays: And so even if there aren't a lot of high level players along the offensive line, I know we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, but even if there aren't a lot of high level players along the offensive line, even if we miss two or three guys for a couple of three or four game stretches, can we get something close to what it would have felt like at full strength? I think that was part of the mindset and how they put that room together specifically.

1:18:27Dave Helman: That does make sense. And, and Milam does give them a little bit of like, like all the other guys that they've, you know, the, the other free agents that they shine, there's not that much upside. Wyatt Milam like might have some upside as like a top 100 pick type of guy. So, I mean, if he really can step up, obviously they're moving him from tackle to guard potentially, which I think is interesting. But even if they don't, he gives you a little bit of flexibility for all, well, every spot except for center, which I do think is pretty nice for them.

1:18:52Robert Mays: I could have thrown this into what is a swing point and what's keeping me up at night. It's just the interior defensive line. The interior defensive line is a concern for this team. I know they traded for Caelan Saunders, which, you know, hopefully that gives you one more depth piece, but Eric Armstead just hasn't been practicing very much. And the Eric Armstead injury concern is always very real at this stage. I believe Mason Smith was a little bit banged up as well at some point during this training camp. And so when I look at the roster, I think you can talk yourself into the edge guys easily.

1:19:22Robert Mays: The linebackers fine. Like we're, we're good. Like Devin Lloyd's been up and down, but like we can live with what the awful linebacker situations looks like the cornerback room in the best case scenario. Fine. We've already talked about the safeties. I think you're kind of holding onto your hats a little bit when it comes to that interior your group. And when you are start piling that on top of the safety concerns, the spine of the defense overall just starts to become a pretty big area of concern for this team. And so I think we're talking about them shooting for the middle and just getting by with certain individual position groups.

1:19:55Robert Mays: I kind of feel like that's what we're doing with the defense overall. And maybe that's fine compared to what the final results were last year, but I just don't think you're going to see a ton of like difference making players on this defense honestly like a

1:20:07Dave Helman: lot of the construction of this and like where the weakness points are and where their greatest strengths are does feel very texans e it's just worse like across the board yes it's just worse and like trayvon walker and josh heinz allen are a really good edge duo but there's a difference from guys who are like that caliber where it's like okay maybe they can bump up into pro bowl with the right year whereas like again hunter and and and and anderson are like pretty i think pretty consistently going to be some of the best in the league so when you have your ceiling is a little bit lower there I think the secondary is a little bit lower like it's just that makes the defensive tackle room being what it is that much more of an issue and again I know that they like traded for Kalen Saunders and all that stuff but there's just there are no good defensive tackles here where I feel confident that we're going to get above average play from them and that to me is a pretty big concern for a team that got ran on pretty pretty comfortably last year and Anthony

1:21:02Robert Mays: Campanile is coming in here this year. And you think about what the Packers defense was last year and how funky they had to be on the backend and just the problem solving in general that I think the Packers defense showed with him on staff there last year. I mean, a lot of the stuff that they did, a lot of those, the cloud coverages that they were using, some of the simulated pressures that they were using, that was not a part of the original plan for what the Packers defense was going to be. They understood these are the weaknesses in our personnel. This is how we have to get by. And so if we see a similarly flexible, creative defense, maybe they can paper over some of this stuff, but first year defensive coordinator, we have, we have absolutely no idea like what the quality of this thing is going to look like in terms of how it's being put together.

1:21:43Dave Helman: Yeah. I want to believe in it, but I also really wanted to believe in the defensive coordinator last year. And that went like incredibly, incredibly poorly. And that's not to say, well, it'll go that poorly again, but with that aspect of the Jaguars, I am a little bit more hesitant than usual.

1:21:57Robert Mays: What is keeping you up at night about the 2025 Jacksonville Jaguars?

1:22:03Dave Helman: There's a lot of reason for me to be excited about the offense. Brian Thomas Jr. is great. Travis Hunter will be nice. I love Trevor Lawrence Cohen. I do believe in generally, but outside of the receivers, the talent in Jacksonville is so much lower than it was in Tampa Bay. And that does concern me a little bit because so much of what they were able to do in Tampa Bay was like, OK, their run game was super diverse and it was cool and all their screen game and all that stuff. And it's like that all is part Liam Cohen design and play calling and stuff. It's also part like their offensive line were monsters and they had one of the best left tackles in the league that they could weaponize in all these different ways.

1:22:40Dave Helman: And even if you want to sell yourself on whatever the best version of this offensive line for the Jaguars can be, it's probably not that kind of unit. And so I do just wonder, can Cohen really adapt to that sort of thing. And I'm not, again, it's not to say that he can't, but in the back of my mind, it does worry me a little bit.

1:22:58Robert Mays: It's a perfect thing to bring up, but we talked about what they're shooting for the overall quality of it. But when you think about the practical application of this offensive line, there are just things you're not going to be able to do that the Bucks were able to do last year, how big and strong the tackles were in Tampa and what sort of concepts you could activate because of that. That's just not what you're going to get here. And the Bucks specifically, the Bucks, the background is, is, is interesting when you think about Cohen and then what they eventually became. Cohen comes from that zone world for the most part, even though the Rams started transitioning to a more downhill gap scheme run game, but they started doing that essentially after he left.

1:23:33Robert Mays: Like that was a post Liam Cohen thing for the Rams. And so Cohen kind of does, comes from a place where the DNA is a lot of zone runs. Well, last year in Tampa, those teams before Cohen got there, there was a lot of gap scheme stuff. They were running a lot of duo when Harold Goodwin was there with Bruce Arians, a lot of downhill gap scheme runs. and so they're big and strong and capable of doing that and you think about the best stuff the Bucks did last year in the run game a lot of it was those gap scheme kind of complementary runs they were hitting for explosives and I just don't know if the Jags group is built to do some of that stuff it's undersized it's probably more suited for a more traditional like mid-zone sort of running scheme that's just not going to feel nearly as dangerous as what the Bucks could put together last year.

1:24:17Robert Mays: And I think it extends to the screen game, like the talent on the offensive line. We probably don't think about and talk about it enough when it comes to the quality of a team screen game, like the awareness that you have to show in space, the overall athleticism among that group, like Creed Humphrey is a good example of this. One of the reasons that the chiefs are such a good screen team is that Creed Humphrey is fucking dynamic and terrifying in space on screens. And I just, the Jags are not going to have that sort of group. They're going to have a win with offensive line, not a win because of offensive line.

1:24:47Robert Mays: And that just changes a lot of the things that you're able to do on that side of the ball.

1:24:52Dave Helman: Exactly. And like, does, can Liam Cohen lift some of that stuff to make them, you know, the, a completely average offensive line and they still do some interesting stuff. I think that is absolutely on the table, but again, the bucks offense last year was truly, there were like five plays a game where it was like, how the hell did you even come up with some shit like that? And then they would, they, it would pop for a 20 yard gain on like some weird counter look that they got to. And I just don't know if we can get to that world with, with this version of the Jaguars.

1:25:20Robert Mays: I think the most telling thing here is that the Jags signed the center that the bucks tried to replace. Like that's, that's the downgrade that we're talking about here. Like the, the bucks drafted Grant Barton in the first round. So Robert Hansey didn't have to be their center anymore. Now he is the center for the Jags. You can get by with it, but it's not going to be something driving your success. Like it was for the Bucs. What's keeping me up at night. I'm taking a lot of these like big picture, like take a look along, look in the mirror sort of approach. I, what's keeping me up at night with the Jags is that this is just a very, very inexperienced group that is now in charge of running the Jacksonville Jaguars.

1:26:00Robert Mays: You have a first year general manager who is younger than me. You have a first year head coach who spent one year as an offensive coordinator. You have a first year defensive coordinator in Campanile. And even when you kick it a little bit further up, the structure of the organization with Tony Buscelli kind of being in that Chris Spielman esque overseer of football operations role, this is the first time that they've been built like this. And so I just think that in the offensive coordinator, also first time offensive coordinator. And I know that his role in Minnesota was more advanced and robust than this, but he was the assistant quarterbacks coach and assistant offensive coordinator.

1:26:37Robert Mays: He wasn't even a position coach before coming into this role. And so there's just a lot of newness and youth and just a very green feel to all of the people in these roles. And I do think they're all smart. They're all capable. They all have good ideas and they've all had some success. But when in the NFL, one of the only guarantees is that eventually it's going to go bad. Eventually you're going to have a stretch in any given season where it probably is bad. How do you handle that when this group all together is doing most of these jobs for the first time? So I think it can work. I supported the hire when it happened.

1:27:17Robert Mays: I completely understand it, but I do think that there's a lot of unproven people in these jobs and we'll see what happens when things get tough.

1:27:25Dave Helman: It's a completely fair concern because it doesn't take away from the quality of, again, what you think of the hires. Like you might think James Gladstone is perfectly competent at his job. You might really think that Liam Cohen is going to take to this the new head coaching job. Well, we might be really excited about you, Dinsky. It's just, again, when it's guys who have never done any of this stuff before, there's just a lot of the who is steadying the ship. And I think that even extends to like they don't have a lot of guys to me from the outside looking in in like the locker room and on the field who are older veteran voices.

1:27:55Dave Helman: They have a couple on defense. Obviously, guys like Josh Heinz Allen are a little bit older and and he's been around the organization for a while. But like Trevor Lawrence is still a very young quarterback. A lot of the other bigger pieces on the offense are also very young players. So it's just it's not just that the guys who have just been put into power positions are really green. It's that there's not that many voices to me in the locker room that also feel like they are, you know, older veteran guys who have been established doing this for a very long time.

1:28:20Robert Mays: I will say Udinski specifically, when we think about like the modern archetype for offensive coordinators, as we've gotten to a place where there's so many play calling head coaches, he's like exactly what you would build in a laboratory. Like he's young. He doesn't have many things like to worry about outside of football and demand, the computing power in that man's brain is wild. And so if you're having those roles, when these offensive coordinators for play calling head coaches. They're kind of like administrative roles in a way. Like it's about keeping everything straight. It's about feeding the right information.

1:28:54Robert Mays: I mean, so he is uniquely suited to be good at that. But again, we just have never seen all of this work and all of these guys are doing these jobs for the very first time. Just something to keep in mind about maybe where some of this could go wrong, even if I do think there's a lot of justified optimism here. What are you watching in the first month of the season with the Jags?

1:29:16Dave Helman: The easy one's Travis Hunter, but I'm not going to do that for me. It is actually I'm pretty interested to see how the running back room shakes out, because Liam Cohen has been pretty blunt in the way that he's talked about some of these guys. Like he's pretty much said, like, yeah, thanks. Bigsby is just not good enough to be out there on pass pro. And it's like, OK, I mean, we kind of knew that from watching in the way that they've treated him. But I think that's been a big concern from them. And then like so Travis Etienne, by virtue of that, has been a lot of their third down back. But Etienne is also not that good at pass protection.

1:29:43Dave Helman: He's just a better pass catcher. and so that I think creates like a little bit of a complicated factor and then I think they really want to like Basial Tootin because he's an incredibly explosive player but he's also a guy who's a little bit on the smaller side and consistently has fumble issues and Liam Cohen has already talked about that so I'm just very interested to see how a running back room that they don't seem like they have a guy they very obviously like and want to give all the touches just does that room look different in week two than it does in week 12 when they really have some stuff established.

1:30:15Robert Mays: We have our fantasy draft tomorrow and we're going to have to spin the wheel. Oh, I wouldn't touch any of them. When it comes to like, which of those Jags backs are going to be the ones that you ultimately want. When I'm watching the first month of the season, this is very simple. We don't have to belabor this because we talked about it a bunch. Is Liam Cohen just still dialed in? He was dialed in last year. Like the heater that that offense went on, just in terms of play calling, the designs, the ideas that he got hot in a way that few offensive coordinators ever do. How much of that is still there?

1:30:45Robert Mays: How much of that has staying power? Like, are we going to see a similar version of him as a play caller to the one that we saw last year as he transitions from being the offensive coordinator to being the play calling head coach? So nothing overly complicated there, but that is what I am watching over the first month of the season. What does success look like in your mind for the 2025 Jacksonville Jaguars?

1:31:07Dave Helman: Like, I think they can squeak into the wild card. And I think ultimately you just want, you already paid Trevor Lawrence. So I think you just want proof of concept that paying him was worth it, which again, I'm already kind of there, but I think you would like everybody to feel good about it. And then for like the whole Liam Cohen experience to, to again, feel like you are headed in the right direction for what you've hired as the, the cure all for your, your former number one overall quarterback. That to me is success.

1:31:31Robert Mays: Yeah. We'd never, to me, I don't think the wins and losses are that big of a deal if they go seven and 10, but these two things were true. I'm okay with that. One, we stopped talking about Trevor Lawrence's contract. We don't even think about it anymore. It's just like, oh, that's just what Trevor Lawrence makes, right? Like he is the guy that you paid or something close to the guy that you paid. And similar to that, I was on the herd today with Danny Parkins and we talked about Trevor Lawrence. And so you're on one of those shows and there's a bottom third cry on. It's like, is this the year where we have to find it out from Trevor Lawrence?

1:32:04Robert Mays: If Trevor Lawrence never appears on a bottom third cry on again, with over the course of this entire season, that is a win for the Jacksonville Jaguars.

1:32:15Dave Helman: No more news about the former number one overall quarterback that we just stopped talking about him. Given, given all the, all the hype for him, I think it would be pretty hard to do, but like, yeah, if he's the quietest quarterback 11 in the NFL, I think everyone in Jacksonville would be exceptionally happy about that.

1:32:31Robert Mays: Like maybe one time in October, you're watching good morning football and they're like Trevor Lawrence, man. Trevor Lawrence has been looking great. Like maybe we just have we got it wrong with Trevor Lawrence. The same thing we did with Baker Mayfield last year. If Trevor Lawrence has the Baker Mayfield from last year season, a lot of the other things that happen with the Jags are kind of inconsequential. Like that season is already a win for them.

1:32:54Dave Helman: Yeah, absolutely.

1:32:56Robert Mays: One more quick break here and then we're going to come back and close this out with the Tennessee Titans. today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA pet health insurance program question for any pet owners of course we all love our pets but do you ever think about just how much joy and energy your pet brings to your household something that's been on my mind a lot recently because I spent a healthy chunk of the summer out of town away from our dog mozzie and getting back to him really made me think about just how much he does for my quality of life, my mental health, and how I would do anything to keep his derpy little face bopping around next to me for as long as possible.

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1:36:34Robert Mays: Our preview for the 2025 Tennessee Titans. They're off season in 60 seconds. Brought in Dan Moore. There's a left tackle. Four years,$82 ,050 ,000 guaranteed. Sine Coney Barton at the off-ball linebacker spot. three years, 21 million. Signed Kevin Seiler to be the right guard, one year, nine million. Draymond Jones, outside linebacker, one year, eight and a half million. Brought in Tyler Lockett, one year, four million. Other signings, Xavier Woods, Sebastian Joseph Day on smaller deals. Lost Harold Landry, Nick Westbrook-Akina in free agency, traded Kenneth Murray to the Cowboys. Draft picks, Cam Ward, first overall.

1:37:05Robert Mays: Edge, Olafami Elodejo, second round, 52nd overall. Safety, Kevin Winston in the third round. Wide receiver, Chimari Dike in the fourth round. Tight end, Gunnar Helm in the fourth round. era elek elu ayamanor wide receiver in the fourth round is getting a little bit too fast what are you excited to watch with the 2025 tennessee titans there are a handful of like

1:37:30Dave Helman: units that weirdly fascinate me in the nfl and i think the titans defense is one of them i think denard wilson is a really really good play caller and like there are some issues with this roster that we'll get to in a little bit but i just think that some of the stuff that he was doing last year was one underrated and also just really different than a lot of other teams like so just on a production standpoint they were 17th in defensive dvoa last year and 19th in epa per uh epa per game they were like a perfectly average unit with like i think two players that anybody knows was definitively good in their two uh defensive tackles like those are probably if you ask the the average family was a rookie and one was a rookie day to pick who like people had concerns that he would be ready day one like it was just this was not a team that had a super amount of talent um and so i think the fact that they produced that well was pretty impressive um what's interesting to me is not just that it was that good and i feel like it's well coached and guys tackling all that stuff they coverage wise play with like a really interesting menu last year on first down only the Jaguars played less cover three than they did like they were when they went single high it was a lot of they just played man and they said we're gonna we're just gonna run with guys and that's gonna be it um and so they did do a lot of cover one but cover three was pretty much off the table for them but weirdly on third down they turned up the cover three notch and they also played a shit ton of cover zero way more than any other team in the league and so they were just this like they were just calling whatever you think like the standard for coverages is on x y and z down for a lot of other teams they kind of flipped it and they made it work i just it was like a bizarro funhouse mirror coverage defense and they they did a good job with it offensive

1:39:13Robert Mays: coaches have tied those are rolodex defenses like it's just a rolodex of coverage like you just kind of spin the rolodex and you don't know what you're going to get and it's hard to play against those teams sometimes and i mean obviously the ravens come from that world where it's a lot of too high shelves before the snap. You're kind of expressing into a bunch of different coverages. You're just hard to pin down. You're just a defense that's really, really hard to get a beat on. And I think that's exactly what Dernard Wilson wanted to be. And you look at it, I completely agree when it comes to the personnel.

1:39:38Robert Mays: This is not a team that had a lot of proven players defensively last year, and they managed to get by. And I do think that there are some elements of this where they kind of were, it was like blessing in disguise. Like, LeJarrius Sneed getting hurt last year after what you gave up for LeJarrius Sneed sucks, but Jarvis Brownlee, who was a fifth-round pick for them last year, got to play a bunch and he took his lumps. Like there's no doubt about that, but I think you saw enough flashes to be excited about what he can be in year two. And he's going to be one of those starting outside corners. And what I appreciate, and I was spent some time in Tennessee and talking to some people there about the things that they've tried to fill in on the defense and what they felt like they needed.

1:40:15Robert Mays: I think that it was really specific and I completely understand how they got there. So the two areas where if you look at the personnel that they added this off season, that was very intentional and very urgent was we want a Mike linebacker within this defense. When they lost Ernest Jones last year, it wasn't even just the quality of play from that position, but what they put on the Mike linebacker mentally in this defense, just think about what they asked of Roquan Smith when Denard Wilson was in Baltimore. They lost that a little bit when Ernest Jones was gone. And so getting Cody Barton to be there and kind of be the centerpiece of communication for this team, I think was a priority for them.

1:40:51Robert Mays: And they feel like they got that with Barton. And even from how his skillset fits into the defense sort of way, he's a little bit undersized. He's a sideline to sideline player. We have Jeffrey Simmons and Trevandre Sweat in front of him. And so the hope is the weaknesses in his game matter a little bit less because of some of the other pieces that you have. And the other thing that was clearly a priority for them this offseason, even if they have that sort of beef on the interior, they were undersized on the edges last year. It was Harold Landry and Arden key. And I don't think they liked how proficient they were at like condensing certain runs and not getting pushed around on the edge.

1:41:29Robert Mays: Well, you look at it, they signed a hot ward in free agency, and that's exactly what he can bring you. They signed Draymond Jones and free agency, who's a massive edge rusher. And it's exactly what he can bring you. He comes from a similar system after playing in Seattle last year with Mike McDonald. And then they drafted family, family, a little dejo in the second round. He's a different sort of player just because he's played off the ball and they do think there's some flexibility there. But right now, I think all they want him to be is we want you to be a violent player off the edge. And we want to condense that space in ways that we couldn't last year.

1:42:02Robert Mays: You combine that with a capable group of DBs if they can get 80 % of LeJarrius Sneed and the type of coaching you're talking about with Denard Wilson. And I truly do believe that this can be a defense that people are surprised by over the course of the season.

1:42:18Dave Helman: They feel like if they were some. If they were the Chargers defense of this year, would that be that crazy? Like they like the build feels similar. I do think the star players in in Los Angeles are a little bit higher. So the ceiling is probably not as high, but like that style of defense where you're just choking other teams out. Your zone coverage is really good. you're playing a lot of these like as sound of run defense as you can from too high is probably the best way to put it like that they feel like they can be that kind of unit yeah i don't think that's

1:42:48Robert Mays: a bad comparison actually i think one of the reasons that the chargers could get by with those sorts of boxes last year is because of what those interior players could do against the run and i think very clearly with sweat and simmons the titans do have those two sorts of guys and sebastian joseph days has been one of those guys like he's just been a good block eater in a lot of these systems over the last four or five years. And so I do think potentially they have the personnel to hold up as that kind of defense. I can get there with you. My answer to this is very simple. I'm excited to watch cam Ward play football in the NFL stylistically.

1:43:20Robert Mays: He is a quarterback that I can easily get behind the way that he wants to play the aggressiveness that he plays with. And I just think that based on everything that I've heard, we talked a lot about cam and about the Titans offense specifically on the out of nowhere units show we did a couple of weeks ago, where I do think that this is the type of offense that could sneak up on some people because of the quality of the offensive line and because of what the ambitions of the quarterback look like. He's going to be somebody that really does try stuff. And I think that style of quarterback, that level of aggressiveness, I do think can reap benefits for you.

1:43:58Robert Mays: And I think when you combine that with somebody that based on everything that I was told about the acumen that he has and just the football intelligence, all the stuff that they're putting on him. I'm excited to watch this. Like you combine aggressiveness and smarts and spatial awareness and pocket mobility. Like he has all of those things. And so you've seen some of the flashes in the preseason. Like I can get there with this. I do want to watch what he looks like within this offense.

1:44:25Dave Helman: And I'm so glad you mentioned that. I mean, one, he's a guy who played in so many different offenses. He played in three different offenses in college and was like barely a passing quarterback coming out of high school. So he's very clearly learned all of this stuff at a really high level, which to me is really interesting and speaks to what he's capable of. But I want to make sure that people get that he's going to throw interceptions and he's going to take bad sacks. And I think in a lot of cases, we ascribe that to the quarterback being an idiot. And that's fair because usually that is the case.

1:44:54Dave Helman: But I do think with Cam Ward, he actually is an exceptionally smart player. It's just that because he plays so towing the line, like, can I really get away with this? Can I do this? You know, can I do this? Can I do this? it looks really bad when it goes bad. And it's the same way that it can look dumb for Matthew Stafford or Jordan love or some of those guys. And I think he definitely has that mentality to him. And especially as a rookie, there's probably going to be moments where it looks really dumb, but I think by the end of it, we're going to have enough moments where you see a lot of the brilliance and you're like, man, if I was a team looking for a young quarterback, that that would be the type of guy I would love to be building around right now.

1:45:29Robert Mays: And I think when you look at his history and just like with some of the stuff he was asked to do in college and how spread out that world was for him, Brian Callahan is comfortable living in that world. And even with Will Levis, we saw a little bit more under center play action, and they're going to do some of that stuff. He is comfortable doing some of the under center stuff. And so I don't think that's off the table, but I think being able to build in enough access throws, RPOs, just like making him comfortable when you need to make him comfortable. I think that there's going to be a blend where they're hoping to take advantage of the aggressiveness and the arm talent while also being able to build enough easy stuff for him early in his career that it should be harmonious if this thing kind of goes right.

1:46:09Dave Helman: Can I also say last, last thing to point out, did you see his answer when he was asked about the fight with Jeffrey Simmons?

1:46:16Robert Mays: Yes.

1:46:17Dave Helman: Just amazing. Jeff is strong as shit is an amazing answer to that question.

1:46:22Robert Mays: He is, they've absolutely loved having him. And I think that he's just been one of those guys that sometimes you feel like the coaches and the people that you're talking to are posturing when it comes to how much they're enjoying coaching a guy or what sort of influence a highly drafted player has had. There's none of this with cam word. Like it, it's all very genuine. And to the point that like, they've had to tell him, like, you do not need to come into the building at five in the morning. Like, this is not something you need to do. And he kind of, he's just like, that's what I do. But the problem is the other rookies have been doing it with him.

1:46:55Robert Mays: And it's like, those are long days for guys that are actually practicing all the time. So that's, they've had to pull him back in a couple of different ways. And I think they'll have to pull him back as a quarterback. And that's a good thing. That's what I want out of my quarterbacks. And that's why I am excited to watch him play this year. The swing point for you with the 2025 Tennessee Titans is what? You know,

1:47:18Dave Helman: we talked a little bit about how excited I am about this defense potentially, but the secondary is a little bit of a swing point. Like we don't know how much we're really going to get out of a Lajarius need at this point. Like he's been banged up for a majority of the time that he's been a Tennessee Titan. The corners, like I think given that he was a fifth round pick and showed some stuff, we should be excited about Jarvis Brownlee. But that's another one of like, what is the ceiling really? Like, is he just going to be like a capable cornerback to for the rest of his career? Or is there something more that he can tap into?

1:47:49Dave Helman: I don't know. And then Roger McCreary is a solid player. But even as far as Nichols go, he's a pretty undersized guy. Like the whole thing about him coming out of college is that he has some of the shortest arms like ever. And I do think that that shows up sometimes, both in coverage and even sometimes in run defense. And then these safeties, you're trying to get by with like stopgap-ish vet in Xavier Woods. Amani Hooker's been there for a while. He's OK. It's just it's hard to see, like, who is the true ceiling raiser. So kind of like we've talked about with some of these other units, they are shooting for we just have no weak links.

1:48:19Dave Helman: Well, if Sneed isn't who we think or one guy gets banged up, you could pretty quickly have like a bad weak link.

1:48:24Robert Mays: I also don't think Sneed is who we think. Like if you're expecting, which is such a pro level this year, he was unbelievable. The last time that we saw him at full strength with the chiefs, if that's the luxurious need that you're hoping for, I think you're probably going to be a little bit let down. I mean, he's just dealing the stuff he's had to deal with physically. I'm just not sure we're ever going to see that guy again. And so this is the area of the roster that is going to need an influx of talent over the next couple of years. I mean, this group, they were picking first overall this year, right?

1:48:54Robert Mays: Like if there's a reason you're picking first overall. And I do think this is probably the group where you're kind of just holding on for dear life and seeing if you can get by. I will say Kevin Winston is somebody as a third round pick that they are excited about. But when I was there early in camp, one of the reasons that he was not going to necessarily break into the lineup that early is because of how well Amani Hooker and Xavier Woods were playing. So it seems like the safety play might be solid enough. I think across the board, that's what you're hoping for here. Can it be solid enough?

1:49:27Dave Helman: if everyone can just be solid that's because if you get solid plus the way that denar wilson's going to call it that's enough and we're cooking here the swing point for me this is a very easy

1:49:37Robert Mays: one what is the offensive line for the tennessee titans obviously a ton of investments this year and you know the dan moore thing we've talked about it a lot this offseason i think it was an easy thing for them to do they knew that they were going to take cam ward by like the end of the combine like this is something where they knew and so when they got to free agency they understood we're going to have to solve this in free agency because if we're taking a quarterback number one overall, a starting left tackle was likely not going to be available to us at 33 or 34, wherever they were picking.

1:50:07Robert Mays: So we have the money to do it. Let's make sure that we at least have an acceptable answer here. And then that allows us to go a couple of different ways in the draft. And so that makes sense to me. And so that thought process, and then being able to pay Zeitler and having that group now be something that you'd hope has no real weaknesses and potentially a couple defined strengths. Like Skaronsky really did turn the corner in the back half of last season. JC Latham is undeniably talented. His weight is down this year. He's more comfortable on the right side. And then we'll see what happens with Lloyd Cushenberry.

1:50:40Robert Mays: And coming back from an Achilles, you never know what the recovery period is going to look like for those types of guys. He's practicing. And he's not like full go back yet, but over the last week, he's been working in even to some of the team stuff. And the hope was to get him ready for week one and it seems like we're going to get there. And so if this ends up becoming like the eighth best offensive line in the league after being like the 28th best offensive line in the league last year, I think this offense could be pretty good. If it ends up becoming the 16th best offensive line in the league, even with all these other investments, then I think it changes the calculus a little bit.

1:51:16Robert Mays: But I'm open to the idea of this being like a definitive top 10 offensive line if all of this stuff breaks correctly.

1:51:25Dave Helman: their best ball really could be like insanely good and I'm Cushenberry really is like to me if I really had to hone it down to one guy who I think is a swing point here it's it's probably Cushenberry like I the literal pivot yeah yeah the literal pivot player I loved JC like I even thought JC Latham was kind of underrated last year and then again he's moving back to his natural position Skaronsky's turned a corner Dan Moore is what he is but again if he's your worst offensive lineman that's probably fine and then zeitler has been just a just an unkillable man at the right guard position for forever cushionberry really is the one where it feels like there's a little bit more uncertainty coming off of the injury but if you get a guy who is like that caliber of veteran center playing with again a quarterback who i think is as put together and smart as cam ward it just feels like there would be such like the the breathing room in that offense would be so much better.

1:52:14Dave Helman: And that I think would go a really long way for, again, a quarterback that is going to try a lot of stuff and might need a little bit of a calming presence at center in a guy like Lloyd Cushenberry.

1:52:24Robert Mays: What is keeping you up at night about the 2025 Tennessee Titans?

1:52:30Dave Helman: The edge room on like pure pass rushing downs scares me a little bit. Like I can see the vision in terms of, OK, we want bigger guys so that we can get to more second and nines and we can condense the run with guys like Draymond Jones, Jihad Ward and all that stuff. And I get that. And I do think Denard Wilson, even just irrespective of the talent that he has to work with, he does do a good job of mixing up some of his pressures and throwing some interesting stuff. But you don't really have anyone who moves me that much as a pass rusher right now, like even Arden Key. Arden Key is cool when he's your third best edge rusher, but he is potentially their best guy right now.

1:53:03Dave Helman: And I think that that scares me a little bit. You don't know what you're going to get from the rookie. And then again, guys like Draymond Jones and Ward are really more there to be first and second down players. So I know that Jeffrey Simmons is, is does a lot by himself, but he can't do it by himself. And it does worry me a little bit what passing downs might look like.

1:53:20Robert Mays: It's totally fair. There is not like a true difference maker on the edge when it's third and eight for this team. The hope is that this can be a group that gets by with creativity and like collective rush plans. And so I think a couple of different things in that area. Arden Key last year, like couldn't play inside because they didn't have any bodies to play outside. And that's some of the best work that he's done as an NFL player. Like when you can put him as a spinner and you can have him working against guards, that's the best version we've ever seen of Arden Key last year. They didn't have the bodies on the edge to be able to do that.

1:53:52Robert Mays: Like he had to play on the edge in those situations. Now, even if Draymond Jones isn't a dynamic pass rusher, Odejo, both of those guys, at least you have some depth there where you can potentially get the best version of Arden Key because he's lining up in the right spots. And something else I thought was really interesting in talking to people there about the plan for that group as a whole. They've actually gotten to a place where the defensive tackles, like the interior players and the outside linebackers are now in one meeting room because they felt that it was going to be a better way to make sure that all of the games, stunts, and some of the tweaks that they would do pre-snap based on certain things were really cohesive in a way that it might not have been last year.

1:54:36Robert Mays: And that to me is the best example you can possibly get of a group that understands we need to be more than the sum of the parts here. Like we need to make sure that we're, when it comes to games, stunts, everything else, we are rushing at a level that is not based on the individual talent of the players, but is based on how we're deploying our guys collectively.

1:54:57Dave Helman: If you're gonna be a sum of, greater than the sum of our parts pass rush unit, everybody needs to know what everybody else is doing and like be very in tune with that so that

1:55:05Robert Mays: makes total sense to me what's keeping me up up at night about the tennessee titans it's the pass catchers not named calvin ridley i mean that that's where i am with this group i tyler lockett in 2025 on a four million dollar deal van jefferson and then a couple guys that you drafted in the fourth round i gotta see it and i think the hope is by the end of the year that you can have dk is your slot guy. And I do think that there's probably a little bit more to him than I thought after looking at his draft profile, like he's a four, three, five guy, but he's actually a little like thicker than some guys who are like that much of burners.

1:55:42Robert Mays: Like he's like six foot 200. And one of the names that came up just in terms of like some of the skill sets with him was like Robert Woods and Robert Woods, the fact that he can like bring some stuff as a blocker as a slot guy. So I think they're excited about DK. And I do think they see a path for I am an or to eventually be like the X receiver of the future, maybe in the back half of this season. But we're talking about fourth round rookies here. And I think collectively, the reason I do think it's going to be better, even with the question marks, is that last year there just was not a lot of collective speed from this group, period.

1:56:15Robert Mays: And if you're using Tyler Lockett as like a vertical slot guy where you're not asking him to get off press coverage, you're not really asking him to throttle down, but you're just using him to kind of create space and you have two guys in DK and I amador that can roll a little bit and you're creating more space for Calvin Ridley as the Z. I do think as a group, you can eventually get there, but the individual talent of this, the wide receiver core is making me a little bit itchy.

1:56:45Dave Helman: I think I'm mostly there with you. Like a lot of the rookies, even if you want to include like the tight end position with Gunnar Helm, it's literally all fourth round picks. And there's a chance that one of them hits for you by, you know, early December, late November, whatever it is. But but but you're asking for a whole lot. I I'm probably slightly more optimistic on the Tyler Lockett thing. Like I actually with the way that Ward plays, I just feel like Lockett actually does make a lot of sense. And so I can I can get myself on there on that. But I do think you're asking for a whole lot of early day three picks at at the other positions where pretty unlikely that one of those guys is like a true difference maker in year one.

1:57:22Robert Mays: what do you watch in the first month of the season with the Tennessee Titans?

1:57:27Dave Helman: We did an entire show earlier this offseason about like it was was Brian Callahan the problem at all for the Titans offense last year. And I think we both kind of came to the conclusion that like, I don't know if Brian Callahan is great, but he might be fine. And like the offense actually did look put together relative to a lot of their their production last year. So I'm just really interested to see what his offense is going to look like now with a quarterback where I think you can put way more on his plate and be, I think, more of a spread team than they ever were last year or the year before with Will Levis and an offensive line that is not constantly getting battered.

1:58:02Dave Helman: Well, like, so I just, it feels like Callahan has so much more to work with now. And I just want to see what is the manifestation of all of that? Yeah.

1:58:10Robert Mays: I mean, this is an offense. We've talked about it a lot, but the degree to which this group shot itself in the foot last year is absolutely horrifying. It's just unlike any offense I can remember watching. So they ranked 24th in the NFL last season and EPA lost on sacks. If you combine that with the EPA lost on aborted snaps, which was the most in the NFL by a decent amount, and then the fact that they lost the second highest amount of EPA in the NFL on turnovers last year, like this is an offense that just couldn't get out of its own way. And I think some of that is the quarterback. Just remember Brian Callahan trying to emotionally process those early season Will Levis moments.

1:58:54Robert Mays: If this team can just not step on as many rakes offensively this year, if the quarterback can be functional and the offensive line can be good, I think that there's a chance that they're really surprising.

1:59:08Dave Helman: I think we're going to do what counts as a successful season in a second. I think what like my joke answer for what is a successful season, don't have the Bengals game again. like don't be that team again and I think a lot of that again would come down to like these little pieces on the offense just not consistently shooting themselves in the foot

1:59:25Robert Mays: for me what success looks like for this team again it's kind of big picture I don't think the wins and losses matter that much the same way that some of these other teams that drafted quarterbacks high have changed the narrative around them in the first season with that quarterback the way that we think about Washington now the way that we think about the Texans now and I'm not asking Cam Ward to have the CJ a Stroud rookie year or to have the Jaden Daniels rookie year. But this team has undergone a lot of changes over the last year or so. There is a new general manager of this team. There is a new quarterback of this team.

1:59:55Robert Mays: They have a different leadership structure with Chad Brinker being there as like the president of football operations. For a long time, this team was a mess. Like the way that it worked internally was a mess. And the way that it was structured didn't make a lot of sense. And there were competing motivations and there was infighting and there were people getting fired on a whim. It felt like one of the more dysfunctional organizations in the entire NFL. Can we get to a place by the end of this season where we don't think that anymore, where we think that this is a team that feels in lockstep, they're moving in the correct direction, they're moving as a whole in that direction.

2:00:30Robert Mays: And the people in these leadership spots, the general manager, the head coach, the quarterback are guys that we can get excited about and we can put trust in. If that's the case and this team is six and 11, don't give a shit. But if we get to that place with all the other stuff, I think that is a significant win for the Tennessee Titans.

2:00:48Dave Helman: If we get to this time next year and we're not even really talking about what is the floor for this team, where we're not worried about like, oh my God, are they just going to be a three-win team? Like, holy shit, they can't play type of team. If we are completely moved on from that conversation, that is success.

2:01:05Robert Mays: I'm 100 % with you. All right. That is all we've got on the AFC South. sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We will be back with our next division tomorrow. We've got division previews Monday through Friday this week, every single day. So buckle up, get ready. We're ready. Appreciate you guys spending the time with us. We'll talk to you very soon.

2:02:03We'll see you next time. at a great farmer's market. You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything. Maybe you go for some free-range, self-directed investing, or perhaps you pick up a few farm-fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full-service wealth management. Mix, match, and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Thank you.