2025 NFC East preview

0:00With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5 % cash back at different categories each quarter on up to$1 ,500 in purchases. That's 5 % cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to Discover. Terms apply. See discover.com slash 5 for details. Listen to this A-Cast show ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

0:39Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. The division previews are here. Very excited about this. We're kicking things off with the NFC East. Me, Derek Lassen, Dave Hellman, breaking down all four teams, hit a bunch of different categories as we have in our division previews over the years. What we're watching the first month of the season, what we're most excited about, the biggest swing points this team has, what's keeping us up a night about these teams, and what does a successful season look like for every team in the NFC East? Let's dig into that right now.

1:14Robert Mays: We are finally here. It is time for the division previews on the Athletic Football Show. And Derek, there was really no other place we could start other than the division that houses the defending Super Bowl champions. And so we are doing the NFC East today. I mean, that's one of those things like the NFL gets that right every year, right? We open the season with, you know, the game coming off of whoever won the Super Bowl. And so I feel like it's it's only right that we do the same thing here. I didn't mean to make you do the Cowboys like our first big show of the year game. I think it just kind of happened to land that way.

1:47That wasn't even in front of mind for me whatsoever. I think that's best, though. And just get it out of the way. Like, I don't I don't want to linger on it. I don't want to have to think about it. We can just rip the bandaid off, talk through it, and we can carry on with more uplifting teams later.

2:03Robert Mays: We've done this over the last couple of years. There's going to be a bunch of categories for all of these teams. Some of them are carryovers from last year. Some of them are new, but we're going to have a lot of fun with all the new ones that we are including here. So let's start. Here it is. Our preview for the 2025 Philadelphia Eagles. If you guys are watching on YouTube, we would love if you liked and subscribed to the channel. Please let us know your thoughts. where we're wrong about this stuff, where we might be right, who you agree with, who you disagree with, all of that fun stuff. Let's dig into it.

2:30Robert Mays: The Eagles offseason in 60 seconds. Extended Nick Sirianni, promoted Kevin Petullo to their offensive coordinator after losing Kellen Moore to the New Orleans Saints as their head coach. Extended Cam Juergens, extended Saquon Barkley way earlier than they needed to. Brought bat Zach Bond on a three-year$51 million deal with$34 million guaranteed. Traded for John Mechie recently, acquired Ja 'Cory and Bennett from the Raiders to be in their corner mix. Small deals in free agency for Aziz Ojalary, Josh Uche, Adore Jackson, and then they traded Kenyon Green for CJ Gardner-Johnson. Drafted Jahad Campbell in the first round, Andrew Makuba the safety in the second round, Ty Robinson a defensive tackle in the fourth round.

3:09Robert Mays: Losses in free agency. There are a lot of them. Milton Williams, Josh Sweat, Darius Slay, Makai Becton, Isaiah Rogers, and the aforementioned CJ Gardner-Johnson. I'm going to try to keep all of those under a minute. I think I can do it this year. That was impressive. We're going to start our previews for every one of these teams with what we are excited about in 2025. Just a heads up, not all three of us are going to answer every single one of these questions. These shows would be seven hours long if we did that. So just because one of us doesn't have an answer to this doesn't mean we're not excited about a particular team.

3:41Robert Mays: I just want to get ahead of that as quickly as we can. Dave, why don't you kick it off here? What are you most excited about watching with the 2025 Philadelphia Eagles? I think I'm just excited to see if the Eagles can keep being right and if they can keep staying ahead of schedule. And in particular, general manager Howie Roseman. I just feel like my favorite thing about the Philadelphia Eagles over the last four or five years, other than just that they're good at football, is this more than most others feels like a team that has prepared for the future excellently. Like they are making decisions one and two, and in some cases, even three years down the line that are bearing fruit.

4:27That can be as obvious as drafting Jalen Hurts when Carson Wentz is still on your team. That could be drafting Cam Juergens while Jason Kelsey is still playing at an all pro level and saying, hey, it might not be for a while, but at some point this guy is going to step in and be our center of the future. and being right about it, by the way, that's drafting Nekobi Dean while TJ Edwards is doing a good job in the middle of your defense. That's drafting Nolan Smith while Hassan Reddick and Josh Sweat are still doing their thing. That is setting aside a draft pick for a future year when you don't need to and then using it to help you acquire Jalen Carter, which is the type of thing that Super Bowl contenders are not supposed to be capable of.

5:11But this team has had a blueprint and a roadmap that has been one or two years ahead of time, I would say since probably 2020 and nobody's going to be right a hundred percent of the time, but Howie Roseman has been so right so often. And what's his reward for that? Having to do it again, basically like that is, that's the challenge. Like now it's okay. Nolan Smith is fun when he's in a complimentary role. Can he step up and be part of your, like a core part of your pass rush? Can you deal with the loss of Milton Williams and free agency is Tyler Steen going to step up and be a great guard the way that Cam Juergens was a great center and on and on and on.

5:52So it's been incredibly impressive. I'm excited to see if they can keep doing it because being right about so many of these personnel moves, I think is why they've played in two Super Bowls in the last few years, but you got to keep being right about that stuff to stay ahead of the curve and remain one of the

6:09Robert Mays: best teams in the league. We'll touch on this in a few different areas, but there are so many young guys stepping into those roles this year that have been kind of waiting in the wings, the J-Link's hunts of the world. And I think there are already some of those spots, Dave, where they're not happy with how this is going. That's why the Ja 'Cory and Bennett trade happens because they're a little bit worried about Keeley Ringo taking that job. So I think the hit rate this year is probably going to be a little bit mixed, but even if they get two or three of those, they put themselves in position, considering the state of their offense and the amount of continuity there to again, Derek, maybe be the most talented team in the league, even with all those young guys stepping in.

6:45Well, and I think for me, part of like the planning for the future is I think what we see with most other contenders is you have your one year of greatness and then it's probably not as easy the next year unless you have Patrick Mahomes and you're at that point, you're cheating. But again, we've mentioned this with the Niners like a million times. They'll have a year where they win 12, 13 games and the next year they win like eight and they miss the playoffs. But if your down year for Philly because of how well you've like built ahead of time is a 10 win team that can still win the division, 11 win team that can still win the division.

7:15That's a pretty good day. Thank you down here. If you can, again, some of these rookies show promise. And then again, for 2026, you can kind of reload and try to get back to the Super Bowl like you do every couple of years.

7:25Robert Mays: It seems they do have the benefit of being able to throw the money around that they're able to throw around and being able to retain most of their really, really good players helps here. You know, there are some teams where Zach Bond has the season out of nowhere that he had. You don't budget for that. And you just lose Zach Bond and free agency. Zach Bond, the Bengal does not stay in Cincinnati. Like the Eagles are able to do that. And I will say the hit rate has been excellent and they do a very good job of having a lot of draft picks. They're always finding those thirds or fourths in the couch cushions, mostly thanks to Mickey Loomis.

8:00Robert Mays: And that's how they volume shoot. Right. I mean, that that's what this team does. They they're so proactive. The hit rate, if you actually look at it, like we remember all the trades that work. We remember the Ronald Darby trade and we remember the C.J. Gardner Johnson trade. There are plenty of like Ugo Amati trades waiting back there that didn't actually work. But because they do so many of them, it doesn't really matter. And that's kind of how the Bryce Huff thing was last year. Because the Zach Bond thing works, we don't talk about Bryce Huff doing absolutely nothing for the Eagles on a massive deal and then getting traded.

8:30Robert Mays: So I do think that the batting average is probably lower than we give Howie Roseman credit for, but he's taken so many at bats that this team is consistently in a very good spot. And I don't think you can have this conversation without mentioning like they whiffed on Justin Jefferson. I'm well aware that the Eagles are fallible. That was like two Super Bowls ago. Exactly. And when you do it with this regularity and this like, I think the volume point is a great one, because if you just put up enough, you're going to get where you want to go with even an above average hit rate. And for the record, yeah, the Bryce Huff thing is bad.

9:08But to even bail on that early enough that you get a draft pick back for it by trading him to San Francisco, it's stuff like that that I like to see where even your failures, you can like mitigate them enough to help you out in the long run. And I just it's definitely not perfect, but it's it's been a heater, in my opinion, for about four or five years at this point. And Howie Roseman's been doing this long enough to know he would probably admit off the record at least that he knows he can't do this forever like there's gonna be some bad whiffs and maybe it'll be this draft class where it's like ah if we had just done this differently maybe the defense would have been another level better you know and don't tell Derek that hold on yeah whoa whoa whoa it's just an example it's just an example I'm just I love that idea and we talk about it with other contenders all the time where it's like see this is why you've gotta nail your draft picks.

10:01You've got to do this. You got to do that. And the Eagles are not perfect, but I think they're doing it better than pretty much everybody else over the last four or five years.

10:09Robert Mays: There's plenty to be excited about in a bunch of different areas. And we could easily throw out like watching Saquon Barkley again, the amount of pure talent that they have on offense. We'll get to a lot of that stuff over the course of this show. But the thing that comes to mind first for me is I'm very excited to see what the young core of this defense does and whether they can take another step together. When we were going into last season, we had no idea who Cooper DeGene was going to be, who Quinion Mitchell was going to be. Jalen Carter had a promising year one and then takes a huge step in year two.

10:38Robert Mays: Nolan Smith goes from being truly just a rotational piece to somebody that I feel like is an attitude channeler for that entire defense. What he does and the play style he comes with, it just seeps into everything about that front and how they feel. I just didn't necessarily expect that from year two Nolan Smith, but that's exactly what we got. And then he's their DNA guy. Like Nolan Smith has become their DNA guy. He was the DNA changer that we did not anticipate last year. And then Zach Bond, it was funny. I was talking to a defensive coach when I was there early in training camp. And I was like, all right, when did you guys know that Zach Bond would be Zach Bond?

11:15Robert Mays: And he goes, I think it was August, like June, July 30th. So pretty early in camp. And he goes, anybody that tells you we knew at this time last year is lying to you. Like we knew that he would be a good player. We knew that we had a good off ball linebacker starting caliber off ball linebacker on our hands. And then the game started and it was like, holy shit. And I think there were a lot of those holy shit moments with these Eagles defenders that we had never really seen in those roles before. And so the steps they can take individually and then collectively, I'm looking forward to that. Quinion Mitchell, especially in talking to people there, I think that he has come in with just a real amount of confidence and what he's seeing and just the year one to U2 transition can be big for a lot of guys, but I think it could be especially big for him.

11:58Robert Mays: And there was one other element of this that I thought was particularly compelling when I was talking to people around the league, just about that Eagles defense last year. And it was, I was actually talking to another defensive coach about this. And he was mentioning how the Eagles like blended a couple of different worlds and how they play up front because Vic has always been, Vic doesn't come from like a penetrating one gap world necessarily with the way that his fronts typically play. But there are guys on those Eagles defenses that their outside linebackers coaches, Jeremiah Washburn, who is Jim Washburn's son.

12:29Robert Mays: And Jim Washburn is like the godfather of those wide nine penetrating defensive fronts. And so there's still a little bit of that DNA with how their position coaches are. And they kind of blended those two things together where somebody told me there, it's like, you don't want Jalen Carter eating blocks. You know, we have to make sure that we're putting those guys in positions to really get after it. And so when you play that way and when you allocate that level of freedom to your front players, the guys behind them have to play off of them. There has to be a reaction and a certain fluidity, the way that they're seeing things.

13:01Robert Mays: Well, that's sort of like subtle mind meld only gets accentuated as you play together longer. So I just feel like there's so many cool little pockets of this defense, Derek, that even if they were the best defense in the league last year, and that may not happen again, because of some of the weaknesses. There are pockets to this thing that I'm really excited to see how it grows moving forward. I'm incredibly excited for it because I think the defense that comes to mind is how many times last year with the Bengals did we talk about like, OK, Luana Rumo's defense is doing so much and putting so much on these guys, but they're just not quite like mentally there to handle it.

13:37It was a lot of young guys that they were trying to bring in and bring along all of the Eagles defenders on top of being very good athletes like Dejean's a great athlete. Quinone Mitchell is a great athlete. Obviously, guys like Carter are really good athletes. They're just really smart players. Like Zach Bond is incredibly smart. Nekobi Dean can be like the general of a defense. And I think you saw some of that last year, like Cooper DeGene. You saw that in the first game that he played against the Bengals, how smart he was. Quinone Mitchell, same thing. He has some of the best click and close already for like a young corner, just trusting what he sees and going, which I think in the Vic Fangio defense as a corner is like kind of priority number one in terms of the way that you need to play.

14:12So I'm just incredibly excited about one, all of the guys that they have, but even the guys that they brought in this year, I'm everyone knows I'm like number one in the fan club for Jihad Campbell. And I think he's looked pretty solid in this preseason. Like I was I was actually just texting someone earlier, like if he was like 10 percent more violent, he would be a kaiju. Like he would be a complete monster of a player. And so hopefully we get there. And then even I think Andrew Makuba at safety, you know, he's a little bit smaller, but I think he's a pretty well put together player already.

14:40So I'm just they've got a lot of stuff going on. I do think you need a really, really big year out of Carter to fill in for some of the guys they lost. But I'm still pretty confident this is going to be a good unit with all these teams.

14:51Robert Mays: We're going to talk about the swing points that potentially exist. Where does this season hinge maybe for each of these individual teams? Derek, you're going to kick us off here. What is the swing point in mind that you have for the Philadelphia Eagles? It feels crazy to say the offensive line for the Eagles because they've been like the best in the league for five years now. But there's just a little bit more uncertainty, I think, along the interior than we are used to with them. Like Landon Dickerson is a great player, but he had a little bit of a meniscus issue. And they're saying that he should be ready ish by like week one.

15:23But that's just you don't know how much of that stuff is going to linger. And when he is clearly your best interior player, I think if he's, you know, 20 percent worse than he normally would be, I think that can hurt you a little bit. Juergens, you know, he's fine. He's solid. And then on the right side, it's probably going to be Tyler Steen, who has been this slow burn development player for them. And I think he's been solid when he's been asked to play. But I think Makai Becton, even if there were some ups and downs and pass pro last year, was a mover in the run game. And I think that that was part of why Saquon Barkley was able to run for 2000 yards.

15:55I think it's a little bit to be determined if Tyler Steen is going to be that. So I think there's a chance when you have Jeff Stoutland that all this stuff could work out and there's nothing to worry about. But I do think that there's a chance that it's a little bit more rocky than we are used to. If you hadn't said it, I was going to say Jeff Stoutland. I mean, not to not to say those concerns aren't valid, but I think I've reached the point where Jeff with Jeff Stoutland, where I'm like, I trust that this will be OK. Even if it's not like rock solid from the word go, I trust that this will be OK.

16:26Robert Mays: It's funny that they did the Kenyon green thing. It's like a heat check after the Mekhi Becton thing. And I bought it completely, Robert. Like the minute they did it, I was like, oh, cool. They're going to fix this guy now. Like that's just, that was my gut reaction when that news came down. It doesn't sound like he's going to start, but if he needs to play, I bet it'll be serviceable. That's just how I feel. If Landon Dickerson can come back at close to 100 % early in the season, and they're really just working through Tyler Steen as the new piece along that offensive line, I have a decent amount of faith that this can get fixed.

16:55Robert Mays: There aren't that many question marks with this Eagles team, especially on offense. I mean, the offensive line is really the only thing. Other than that, we're rolling back with the same group of superstars that we're used to on that offense. The big change is that they are, again, transitioning to a new offensive coordinator with Kevin Petulo coming in. He was our passing game coordinator over the last few years. And this is a team that it's been a mixed bag. They went to Brian Johnson after the 2022 Super Bowl appearance. That offense was disjointed. It was dysfunctional, never really found itself.

17:24Robert Mays: They struggled in pass protection. They struggled against the blitz. That lasted one year. They go out and get Kellen Moore. They are so good. Again, they go to and win the Super Bowl and then lose another offensive coordinator. So there's a chance that Kevin Petulo is not long for this role with the Philadelphia Eagles if we have a similar set of results. But because it's been a little bit mixed with the guys who've come in, I think that we have to pay attention and talk about this. Petulo has an interesting background. He's like a Chan Gailey guy. So, I mean, that's I don't think there's going to be a lot of Chan Gailey DNA being inserted and being inserted into the Philadelphia Eagles offense.

17:58Robert Mays: I know they were going to see a lot of like four wide spread offense from this team. But I think the one thing that is worth remembering there and thinking about is that Jan Gailey is willing to try some weird shit, right? Just there is some interesting ideas that Jan Gailey is willing to throw around. And so I think that as just a general guiding principle is something to keep in mind. But the other interesting element of this is that Patool, even though he was the passing game coordinator, he's also been the associate head coach over the last couple of years. And he's kind of been Sirianni's like right hand guy, Dave, where he's in a lot of meetings that assistants aren't normally in.

18:32Robert Mays: He's part of conversations that a lot of assistants aren't normally a part of. And so he's more of a piece of the fabric of the organization than a passing game coordinator typically would be. So this isn't somebody that you're really kicking upstairs that's not used to being a big part of how big decisions get made. And so I think that's just something to keep in mind as we think about what type of coach and the standing he has within the building that they're elevating to this sort of position. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he he came over with Sirianni from the guys. Yes. Like this is his dude going way back.

19:06So it is funny and I don't have a take on this. I think it's a hard thing to know, but I do think it's interesting that they tried the continuity thing. Like they elevated Brian Johnson from their staff in 2023. It did not work. They go outside the organization on both sides of the ball to like, just get proven guys with track records that have done this a lot at a high level and it worked. And now they're going back to, you know, the continuity and the guy that's been here and the guy that knows Sirianni really, really well. That's not to say that it will or won't work, but I think it's funny how they've kind of flip flopped the philosophy on these two hires.

19:44I think my take on that is I I had the initial inclination to be a little bit worried about for the same for the same reason, like remembering the Brian Johnson experience. But that was also like Sirianni's first rodeo with something like that. And I think that this time it being, again, a guy that he's a little bit more comfortable with, has worked with for a very long time. It just feels like there's going to be a little bit more of the right give and take with that role that I have. I have a little bit more. I also just trust Sirianni as a coach more than I did like two, three years ago in general.

20:13Robert Mays: So it's 100 % worth mentioning. And a couple of different things just based on conversations I had with people when I was there. I think when Brian Johnson took over as a first time play caller, I think Sirianni was inclined to hover a little bit, to be a little bit more involved with the offense than he might've been with Shane Steichen. I don't think that's happening with Kevin Petulo now there as the offensive coordinator. I think that Sirianni is going to be able to take the same sort of step back he took with Kellen Moore. When it comes to the offense, I think the biggest difference between moving to Brian Johnson, then moving to Kevin to after Kellen Moore is that when they moved to Kellen last year, they did a lot of cleaning out of the offense.

20:50Robert Mays: Like they did a lot of, okay, let's throw everything out onto the table here, figure out what works and start pruning stuff. They didn't really do that after they moved on from Shane Steichen. And so I think that this last year was the hard look in the mirror off season. And now I think that they're going to be able to just roll with the type of offense that they had last year because they've accounted for a lot of those weaknesses. So I think we're going to see the same sort of offensive identity and approach this year that we saw last year, maybe just dressed up with a few more things, maybe a little bit more motion, maybe a little bit more formation diversity, but I don't think they're going to be trying to reinvent the wheel here.

21:26Robert Mays: I think they learned last year, we can do kind of whatever we want to do, right? Like this doesn't have to be a, oh, well, if they're in light boxes, we have to run the ball. If they're reloading the box, we have to throw the ball. Our players are better than yours. And we're going to be able to dictate the terms of how this game is going to go. And I think that was an important lesson for them last year. I feel like some of the specifics, like cleaning up some progression stuff with Jalen hurts, making things a little bit quicker and simpler, but I don't think you're going to see anything from this offense that shocks you when it comes to structure.

21:55Robert Mays: I think that there's going to be a lot of the greatest hits that we've seen over the last couple of years, Derek. Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. what's keeping us up at night about the 2025 Philadelphia Eagles we did this last year just the point of anxiety you have about this team heading into the season Dave why don't you kick us off here last year was arguably the healthiest year of Saquon Barkley's career at least one of them and by the end of it if you include the playoffs he touched the football 482 times And I know like for the purposes of stat keeping and record books, we only use regular season.

22:36So if you look it up, you'll see, you know, it was like 378. But my guy touched the ball more than 100 times in the playoff run. Like that stuff matters just from a physical toll standpoint. He's missed multiple games due to injury in four of his seven NFL seasons. So we know that the durability was an issue when he was with the New York Giants. Obviously, he's got a better supporting cast in Philadelphia that plays a role in it. But it still feels worth mentioning that he nearly had 500 touches last season. And just out of curiosity, I went back and I looked up running backs who have had that kind of workload in the recent past.

23:17Ironically, back in the day, this stuff used to happen all the time. Oh, yeah. The Larry Johnson's. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's disgusting when you go look like LaDainian Tomlinson, Edron James, Curtis Martin. Yeah, the Kansas City running backs back in the day. But really, since like the 2011 CBA, it's not very many dudes and only the super mutants really fare well when this happens. Like Derrick Henry does it all the time without it even mattering. So that's awesome for him. He's never going to die. He doesn't count.

23:48Robert Mays: Basically, an X man, you can you can handle 500 touches in a season. Derrick Henry and Adrian Peterson used to do this type of shit all the time good for them but other backs okay just for instance Josh Jacobs 2022 393 touches the next year saw his yards per carry dipped by a yard and a half and missed a month of the season with a quad injury Jonathan Taylor 372 touches in 2021 dealt with an ankle for the next year and a half that sent him to IR during the 2022 or the 2020 yeah 2022 season lingered uh what you got you got arian foster who dealt with a back injury after 460 touches in 2012 he only played half of that year the list goes on and on not everybody fell off a cliff the year after there were plenty of successful guys like i mentioned derrick henry ezekiel elliott was just fine after having a similar workload in 2016 but by and large, it can be problematic when you're taking on this type of workload.

24:49We already know that Saquon Barkley has had a history with injuries. I'm not wishing this on him. I really hope it doesn't happen, but you'd be crazy not to be worrying about that a little bit after the amount of work that he did for the Eagles last year.

25:05Robert Mays: This is one of the oldest like football analytics conversations of my lifetime. I mean, the curse of three 70 is something that Aaron Schatz wrote about for Football Outsiders 21 years ago. This is a conversation we've been having for a very long time. And for the most part, guys are not as effective and often get hurt after getting this sort of workload. It's just what the history will tell you. The question is whether Saquon Barkley is one of those alien type guys where it just doesn't matter. And after last season, Derek, I am tempted to think that he might just be one of those guys where it might not matter.

25:40I want to believe he is because physically he is insane. But the reason actually why I'm willing to buy it a little bit is one, he obviously just ridiculous athlete. But also, even though you are still getting touched and hit that often, it's not like he's running into a brick wall every play. Like he is playing in a pretty favorable situation where he's able to get out into space and maybe take some lighter tackles than if he was just running into straight into the face of a linebacker at two yards. So that probably helps a little bit, but I will say I'd be shocked if he's 95 % as good as he was last year.

26:17He is probably going to be more like 85%, which to be fair, I mean, that's still what, like the fourth best running back in the league. So it's, it's probably fine.

26:24Robert Mays: And also just think about the amount of huge, long touchdown runs this team scored last year. I mean, you look at it compared to other teams, they had 25 carries of 20 plus yards last year. But I mean, when you look at plays of 50 plus yards, he had one, two, three, four. Yeah, he had four 50 plus yard touchdown runs last year. 68, 70, 72, 65, and then one 55 yard run. So if they don't get those sorts of huge explosive runs, what does that do to the complexion of the offense? They're still good down to down, but this is a team that really did rely on those very rare, like outwire explosive plays on the ground that most teams just do not get period, especially in the second half.

27:09Like how at some point last year, like maybe by like week 12, I was like, you just know that in the end of the third quarter, Saquon Barkley is going to put the dagger in a team. And I just, it might be hard to continue to do that when you touch the ball 500 times the year before.

27:23Robert Mays: Yeah. So, and it's again, we're talking about if he's 90%, what does that do for the offense? And if he misses time, I don't think Will Shipley is Saquon Barkley. The offensive line can be great, but I think Saquon was doing so much more for that offense, obviously, but when you, the offensive line has been very good for a long time. I think Saquon was a perfect example last year of what an elite running back behind an elite offensive line can actually do. What's keeping me up at night. And this is really the weak point of the roster as we head into the season here. It's just the young pieces in the secondary.

27:52Robert Mays: I mean, that second outside corner spot. I don't know how you can feel good about that right now. I again I was there on July 30th and I was asking about that position I was it was unsettled then and I asked someone I was like would you be open to looking outside of the building to solve that if you don't feel like a Dory Jackson or Keely Ringo can get you there and the answer was essentially like well always like what do you want to go back to the conversation we just had it's like always like we will take shots at this to fix it and so they trade for Ja 'Cory and Bennett and we'll see how that shakes out but based on what Brooks Cabina our Eagles writer wrote this weekend, there's still no defined starter at that spot.

28:31Robert Mays: Like he's obviously been behind Bennett has because he came really late and they made that trade because they weren't happy with the other guys. And so that's going to be a question until it's not. And then that second safety spot, you know, Sydney Brown is going to be there right now. That's what currently he is penciled into play there. We'll see what happens with Andrew McCuba, but when they're in nickel, which this team wants to be a nickel essentially all the time, because Cooper de gene gives them flexibility there, you're going to have a question mark at that other safety spot until it's not.

29:01Robert Mays: This is shocking, but true. Reed Blankenship is the oldest player in the secondary for the Eagles. He is 26 years old. I was going to say, I think he's still on his rookie contract. He is 26 years old. So there's just a lot of youth and a lot of questions with that position group specifically, even when you consider how good the good players are. And I'm glad you, went to Reed Blankenship because the this was also what is keeping me up at night with the Eagles. And the way I want to frame it is very simple. Reed Blankenship is cool when he's your worst DB on the field in nickel. When he is your third best DB on the field in nickel, I think the secondary is not quite as full as it needs to be.

29:42And obviously that could change. Maybe Makuba is great. Maybe Ja 'Korian Bennett really sips up whatever it is. But like if I had to pick today, who is the third best defensive back in that room right now? It's Reed Blankenship. That makes me feel a lot worse than when he was the worst guy in that unit.

29:57Robert Mays: A couple more categories here for each of these teams. We're going to talk about what we're watching in the first month of the season. When these teams actually take the field, what is the number one thing we have in mind that we want to find out? Derek, what is that for you in the Philadelphia Eagles? This is kind of like a little bit granular, but like so I like their edge room, right? Like Nolan Smith is awesome. I I was pining all offseason for somebody to sign Aziz Ojalary and the Eagles have obviously went out and did that. Josh Uche is a solid pass rusher. Jalex Hunt, I think, showed some stuff last year.

30:27The problem is all of these guys are like 250 pounds or lighter. And they are coming off of a season where their best defensive end last year was Josh Sweat, who was like 265, closer to 270 pounds. A guy who could really sit there, set the edge and like hold his spot. And I think Nolan Smith for his size does a very good job of that. But the rest of the guys, I think it can be a little bit more to be determined. I mean, like I would like to see more from Jalex Hunt there. I know for a fact Joshua Uche doesn't really do that. That's not what you brought him in for. And then I think Aziz Ojalary is like a decent can like bend under guys and kind of make some interesting plays against the run.

31:04But he's not like Josh Sweat, where he can just throw the kickstand and be a problem. And so I just wonder a little bit what the what this edge room looks like if they just really don't have that much size to them.

31:14Robert Mays: What they're betting on at that spot is just length, just pure length, even if those guys are a little bit lighter. every single one of those dudes, Jalex Hunt, Aziz Ojolari, they're just long, long players at that spot. Whether that's enough or they need a little bit more beef as part of that rotation, we will find out. But based on how they've built that room, it seems like that's the bet that they're making. What I'm watching over the first month of the season, do we see any new wrinkles with this defense, with some of the position changes and some of the new guys that are coming in? What does Jihad Campbell do, right?

31:45Robert Mays: Are we going to see Jihad Campbell as a pass rusher? Do we see them blitz a little bit more because they have Jihad Campbell and Milton Williams and Josh Sweat are no longer here in base? Sounds like Cooper DeGene's going to be playing a little bit of safety. How does that go? Are we excited about that? Does he transition there? Well, I think he might. But again, that's a new wrinkle for this team. And then the other part of this is not really specific, but more just big picture. When I was there, I was asking somebody on the defensive staff just about Vic Fangio and on a very simple level, like what makes Vic Fangio Vic Fangio?

32:14Robert Mays: and he was saying that in his experience, Fangio studies and understands himself better than any coordinator that he's ever been around. Like when he's transitioning from season to season, he understands and can kind of see around the curve for how offenses are going to respond to him in ways that other defensive coaches just can't. Where when they went from like San Francisco to Chicago and there were tiny situational things where, okay, in the red zone, we know these are the beaters that they're going to be bringing because of what we did last year. How do we make sure that we're actually on the front foot in the adjustments we're making against all of that?

32:50Robert Mays: And so them trying to figure out, all right, this is who we were a year ago. How do we make sure that we're ready for whatever next step in evolution offenses are going to take to attack us there? I'm just curious what that looks like for the Eagles. If I could say what the offensive evolutions were and what the defensive responses were, I would be Vic Fangio. I can't do that. But I am curious to see what that cat and mouse game looks like as this defense transitions into year two. One thing I want to bring up with that too, and I was thinking about it just when I was looking at the Eagles defense, because obviously you got a healthy amount of turnover from a Superbowl team and we know he's a good player, right?

33:27But I wonder how much the Eagles are willing to put on Jalen Carter in year three. And I feel like it's not the type of thing that they would say on the record. Cause you, you don't want to put that type of expectation on a guy who's still a young player but if they feel like he is that Chris Jones type of defensive tackle that can just change the feel of your defense almost on his own I wonder how that affects the rest of things and you know as big of a jump as he took in year two if you can expect even more of that in year three it obviously can just make so many things so much easier I think the expectation for him

34:06Robert Mays: as defense player of the year. Yeah. And I think that's the type of ceiling we're talking about with Jalen Carter in year three and what they need him to be as they transition to a bunch of new guys in that front. Speaking of new guys in that front, for each of these teams, we're going to try to find like an important supporting character that we think is going to be huge for this team's chances this year, but it's a little bit further off the radar. Derek, mine for the Eagles is Moro Jomo. Your guy, Moro Jomo. Speaking my language. I love this. True to the brand. He was a rotational defensive tackle last year, played about 270 snaps.

34:38Robert Mays: It's actually almost as many as Milton Williams played last year, which is actually kind of funny against the past. So Milton Williams played 303 passing snaps last year. Moro Jomo played 268. Moro Jomo, better pass rush win rate, according to PFF than Milton Williams had last year. So if he can come in and I'm not saying replicate, but get close to the production that Milton Williams had over the course of the regular season, that goes a long way in this defense being able to stave off the regression that is probably coming for it at least in some way after the season that they had last year yeah like i i will see what he is as a run defender because i do think milton williams gave them a little bit more there but if he could yeah be relatively what milton williams was as a pass rusher which like i really think he can like ajomo is incredibly quick he's explosive you see some of the moves like i just he's a guy i'm incredibly excited about so if that uh what did you say like 270 and 70 snaps that kicks up by 100 or so and he gets a few more chances to get after it like I'm pretty excited for what that's going to look like for all these teams we're rounding this out with which count what counts as a successful season for each one Derek what is a successful season for the Philadelphia Eagles I think it's you know we want to say oh go back and repeat because this team is great I think realistically when you are a Super Bowl team you're probably going to have some degree of a hangover so to me it's just win the division again which I think even with some degree of step back is like extremely on the table for them.

36:04And then just some of the new guys on defense that we've talked about, like really showing some signs for like, okay, we can keep this going for a handful more years. Like that to me is a pretty successful year.

36:13Robert Mays: Pretty modest ambitions. Dave, what did you have? I don't think repeating is realistic. Like it's just, I don't think repeating is realistic. I don't think they have to repeat, but I think winning the division and having the young guys look good when you just won the Superbowl with the most talented roster in the league, I want more from yourself. I can feel already and we'll like we'll get into this as we do predictions and during the season, like I think that I think a lot more of the Eagles than at least Derek does. And maybe Robert too. Like I think a lot of this team, I said, it's hard to put Superbowl on anybody.

36:46Right. So I can't go all the way to Superbowl, but it's, I mean, they clearly have a three or four year window to win another Superbowl. And like this counts like this, this would count as a missed opportunity. I think if they don't at least push for it. And so winning the Super Bowl is a hard expectation to put on anybody. I'll say bare minimum. I think this team should be in the final four, like get back to conference championship game weekend. I think they are that talented that anything less than that, I would call a wasted season. I want to be clear. I would pick them to make the final four, and I will be doing that when we get there.

37:18But it's just like say it with your chest. Come on, man. They win like 11 games and just win like a or lose like a weird wild card game. But I'm like, whatever. It's fine.

37:27Robert Mays: I'm sure the city of Philadelphia will say, ah, well, they're never fine unless they get the team that they booed the Eagles in the 2018 after the first half of the season on the opener on the season opener on Thursday night after they won the Super Bowl. They booed them off the field in the first half. So I think 11 games in a first round playoff loss would not be good enough for the city of Philadelphia. I also said championship Sunday. I think repeating is hard, but we know that typically championship Sunday is a marker of who the best teams in the league are. And then after that, it requires a lot of luck.

37:59Robert Mays: It requires a lot of chance. If they can get back to the final four, I think that is success for this version of the Eagles. All right, before we get to the Washington commanders, let's take a quick break. You know, that hoodie you can't stop reaching for the one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded. I found it. And trust me, it's not what you expect. It's called Paka, spelled P-A-K-A. And if you're tired of hoodies that stretch out, pill, or feel heavy, this is the upgrade you've been waiting for. Paka makes outdoor and lifestyle apparel from alpaca fiber, one of the world's most sustainable natural fibers.

38:33Their best-selling hoodie is softer than cashmere, warmer than wool, and breathable. This hoodie is built for real life, thermoregulating, odor-resistant, durable, and made to last. Each one is made start to finish in Peru and features an Inca ID that's hand-woven by artisans. honoring generations of knowledge and traditions and connecting you closer to where your clothing comes from. Over 250 ,000 people have already picked up the pack of hoodie. What makes it even better? It really is like a second skin. So comfortable, so warm, exactly what you're looking for in a hoodie. You know, it's funny, as a sports podcaster, I am able to have a relatively casual wardrobe.

39:08When I go into the office a few days ago, my wife and I were both getting ready to go for work, and she looked me up and down and was like, that's for the office? And I'm like, yeah, it is. And guess what? it was the pack of hoodie that I was wearing. You can wear it to work, can wear it to a baseball game, a football game, can wear it to your kids games. You can wear it outside, inside, whatever the case might be. Pack a hoodie is there for you. If you've been thinking about leveling up your hoodie game, this is your sign to do it. To grab your pack of hoodie, go to www.packaapparel.com. That's www.pakaapparel.com.

39:43Wrapping my arms around my finances has only gotten trickier as I've gotten older. It might not seem like that's the way it's supposed to go, but that is indeed the way it is. Paying a mortgage, paying your bills, paying for daycare, paying for kids' activities. It just gets a little trickier and trickier as you get older and as your life gets fuller. And even though all that is true, Monarch, the personal finance app that tracks everything, accounts, investments, saving goals, and spending can make your financial picture as clear as it's ever been. So yeah, saving up for a trip. And when did I know that we were going to be able to go ahead and book that?

40:18When I hit a savings goal that Monarch helped me identify. Love how easy it is to use. Love how everything is contained and shown to you in one spot. Really like to be able to be organized with these sorts of things. Monarch certainly makes that easy to do. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent. Monarch helps set goals, map out big purchases, and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances, like how much did I spend on travel last summer or can I afford a vacation without touching my savings? Spot things you wouldn't think to look for with AI insights.

40:52Has your spending gone up or is it just inflation? Get a heads up on what's happening with your money with the AI Weekly Recap. It flags spending spikes, net worth shifts, and upcoming expenses. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code athleticfootball at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch core half off at just$50. That's 50 % off your first year at monarch.com with code athletic football. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've heard me talk about BetterHelp for a long time, but I don't know that we've ever actually talked about how much people love this service when they use it.

41:22You can check it out yourself at betterhelp.com slash reviews to see amazing customer reviews in real time. The reviews are updated every day with hundreds of people saying how much they love BetterHelp and how helpful it's been to them. Please visit betterhelp.com slash reviews to see for yourself. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. The feedback from people who have actually used the service speaks for itself. More than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. The consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why so many people continue to choose BetterHelp.

41:56BetterHelp therapists have at least 3 years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. They also hold all required education, training, and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started, answer a few questions, get meshed with a therapist based on your needs, and switch therapists at any time if it's not the right fit. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Mays. That's BetterHelp.com slash Mays.

42:30Robert Mays: It's time for our preview for the 2025 Washington Commanders on the athletic football show, please like and subscribe to the channel if you have not already. Let us know your thoughts in the comments, anything you might disagree with, who you think is going to win this division, any players that we're not thinking enough about. The Washington Commanders offseason in 60 seconds. We're doing this for every single team. Terry McCordon currently holding in. Acquired Laramie Tunsil from the Texans for four picks, including a 2026 second and a 2025 third. Acquired Debo Samuel from the Niners for a 2025 fifth round pick.

43:05Robert Mays: Signed Javon Kinlaw, three years,$45 million,$30 million guaranteed. Signed Von Miller, one year,$6 million. Brought back Marcus Mariota, one of the highest paid backups in the league. Brought back Bobby Wagner, one year,$9 million. Zach Ertz, one year,$6.2 million. Brought back John Bates, who we'll talk about a little bit later. Three years,$21 million,$11 million guaranteed. Small deals in free agency for Jonathan Jones, Will Harris, and Dretrick Wise, all of whom will be in the mix on that defense. In the draft, Josh Connerly, offensive tackle, 29th overall. Trey Amos, the corner in the second round, 61st overall.

43:33Robert Mays: wide receiver Jalen Lane fourth round 128th overall again they did not have a third round pick because of the Laramie Tunsil trade Jonathan Allen Deami Brown Jeremy Chin Dante Fowler all lost in the offseason to free agency well they cut Jonathan Allen but he's on a new team now what are you most excited about Dave for the 2025 Washington Commanders I have a feeling I know where you're going with this let me see if I can hit the listeners with the next level analysis that they've come to expect from the athletic football show. I'm excited about year two of Jaden Daniels and what that means and what it could look like.

44:10You're talking about a quarterback who's capable of throwing for 4 ,000 yards and rushing for a thousand yards in the same season. I think that's on the table for him. Like it is a thing that I can imagine happening. Maybe only if Terry McClure never comes back to camp, but it is, it's on the table. If he plays, if, if he progresses from his rookie year, then we can officially, I mean, some people already feel this way, but we can officially start talking about him as a top five quarterback in the NFL playing for a legacy franchise, a franchise that went so long without something to be excited about.

44:46All of that kind of ties in for me. Like it's not just Jaden being great, but Jaden being great in a very historically good football market that hasn't had a whole lot to be excited about. And he's only turning 25 this year. So if he cements himself as the guy that we think he is, what what else is that like? What could be more exciting than that?

45:08Robert Mays: I asked when I was there where they thought he needed to get better and no one had a good answer for me. It was kind of like, well, by the end of last season, he was already one of the best players in the league. And I think that it was an honest answer. I'm curious from your vantage point, Derek, when you see Jaden Daniels going from year one to year two, the small gaps in his game that you want to see him fill in. What are those for you? he for as much as he can bail himself out of trouble he still creates a lot of trouble for himself by hanging in the pocket and I think being not late on stuff like when the ball comes out he's usually on time but sometimes the ball just doesn't come out and he hangs on to the ball and he still took for as exciting as everything was he still took like a pretty equivalent to like Caleb Williams level sack rate and I think it's just obviously Caleb didn't have all the good place to counteract it wasn't that bad it was like in terms of plays where he was pressured it's the pressure to sack ratio was like kind of similar.

46:02Robert Mays: Go ahead. Keep going. He just didn't get pressured nearly as much because the bears were awful. And Robert's pulling this up right now. He's like, I got a much better job of, uh, of their past protection plans. And, and obviously Jaden's part of that. He did a really good job of beating the blitz, but like when Jaden Daniels got pressured, he took a lot of sacks. And I think that that needs to get cleaned up. And then still, this is like a me thing. I think more than Jaden Daniels thing, I still want to see some more aggressive throws in like the, uh, 12 to 20 range over the middle of the field.

46:29And I don't think he needs that to be an elite quarterback. I think he can be perfectly fine without it. Joe Burrow was for a large swath of his career till until really last year. But I still want to see a little bit more of that selfishly.

46:40Robert Mays: Jane Daniels had a 22.2 % pressure to sack rate last year. Caleb Williams was a 27.8%. It was still a top five rate for Jane Daniels among quarterbacks who had at least 50 % of their team snaps, but not quite as bad. Yeah, not quite as bad, but I don't know. given, given how much more help he had, I feel like that 5 % gap can get, you know, close a little bit. Jaden Daniels finished fifth cable. He was finished second. Caleb Williams shooting for second place though. Will Levis has the crown 29.6 % for Levis's pressures turned into sacks last year. I'm really excited to see what year two of this offense can look like with Jaden Daniels.

47:14Robert Mays: And you know, they're the way they built this thing. And we'll talk about this in a second, when we just talk about resource allocation and relative strengths and weaknesses of the roster, but they just said, we're going to put the best offensive line in front of him that we possibly can. Because if you look at quarterbacks around the league, truly elite quarterbacks around the league, if they're protected, they can make the most of the pass catchers. This has been true for Patrick Mahomes. It's the exact strategy that the chiefs took after that buck Superbowl, where they said, we don't care who he's throwing the ball to.

47:41Robert Mays: It doesn't matter. Like we'll have him throw to Juju Smith Schuster and we'll still win the Superbowl. It doesn't matter as long as we're protecting him. It's exactly what the bills have done with Josh Allen, where Josh Palmer is like the number one Bills receiver right now. And they're projected to lead the league in points scored, according to Vegas, because of they built up that offensive line. The important part of that calculus is that Jaden Daniels has to be as good as Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen for you to make good on that. And so if he can firmly establish himself as in that club of quarterbacks by the end of this season, you know, I don't think he has to be the MVP of the league.

48:15Robert Mays: I don't think he has to be quite to those guys level. It took them three, four, five, six years to get to that place. But if he can be that definitive fifth best guy, fifth, sixth best guy, like at the top of the next tier, which we talked about this on an entire show in July, feels kind of open that next tier. Then I think that decision of we're going to make sure that we just have the best offensive line possible. He'll lift the pass catchers. I think that can work if he becomes that sort of guy, not even becomes, but really asserts himself and it confirms that he's that sort of guy. Yeah. If he just continues to climb up the ladder closer to that, whereas like last year, I think he was probably like for me, like the eighth, ninth best quarterback.

48:56And it's just like the super exciting stuff we remember. And that team got a little lucky. If he climbs one or two more spots and cleans up some of that like pocket management, then yeah, he's definitively as good as they need him to be.

49:07Robert Mays: What are you excited about with the 2025 commanders, Derek? The people playing in front of him, the offensive line, because I think on a roster standpoint, the offensive line was mostly terrible last year. Like it was a lot of not good players. Like Tyler Biotis is fine at center and right guard Sam Cosme, I think is a pretty solid player. But other than that, it was a lot of like, we're hanging on to our hats and they kind of circumvented it by, obviously Daniels is a really good scrambler and obviously he can be part of their run game, but they threw a lot of screens. They threw a lot of stuff that was supposed to be, a lot of their go balls were just like, we're just going to chuck it up immediately.

49:40They did a really good stuff with their pass protection plans in terms of, OK, we're full sliding a lot. We're changing up like who which tight end is staying in when we're in 12 personnel, that sort of stuff. So they did really, really well with all of that. I would like them to just not have to do as much of that. And I think that that's going to be the case this year. When you bring in a Laramie Tunsil and you draft the first shot and right tackle in Josh Connerly, in theory, you don't need to do as much of the we're adding two more tight ends to stay in pass protection and having to full slide one way and BS our protection.

50:08You just that will still be nice as like a little change up for them to keep defenses is honest, but they could probably get away with more like five, you know, five and a half man protection, depending on what you want to do with the back than they were ever able to get away with last year. And then on top of that, their run game last year, when you didn't include like Jaden Daniels being part of like the option game, it wasn't good. Like the straight up handoff to the run to the running back run game was bad last year. If that can go from bad to average because of guys like Connerly and guys like Jeremy Tunsil, we're starting to cook with some gas here.

50:40I think that's spot on.

50:42Robert Mays: I think when you talk to people there about, all right, what does this allow you to do? The phrase that somebody said to me was, we have to be less tricked out this year than we were last year because of the guys that we have along the offensive line. And I think we've talked about it a lot this off season. I think how intentional they were about going out and improving those spots. And we'll see when Sam Cosme gets back. Obviously, that's going to be a big question. It sounds like he's hit every single benchmark. He stayed there and rehabbed. They're very happy with the timeline of how this is going.

51:11Robert Mays: Whether that means he's back by week two or week five, I have no idea, but they're, they're pleased with how that process has looked, even though he tore his ACL in the playoffs. So if that group gets back with Cosme early in the season, and now you have improvements at both tackle spots with Tunsell and Connerly and Brandon Coleman comes in and really establishes himself at guard, which I think he has the chance to do after playing left tackle, you know, kind of on and off last year. and that group can really dominate on the ground without all those bells and whistles we saw last year. And then the pass protection can improve when it comes to them being able to sit in the pocket and make plays later in the down without him scrambling.

51:48Robert Mays: I think that's how you start to stave off the regression with a lot of the coin flip things that went their way last year. We talked about this on the Seat at the Table show. They converted 87 % of their four downs last year. They were 20 of 23. They converted 45.5 % of their third downs last year, which was the sixth highest rate in the league. They won so many games on the last play or the last possession. There was just a team that got lucky in a lot of ways last year in manners that are hard to keep up with. But I think that they've, they're not just rolling it back and saying, Oh, we were good enough last year.

52:22Robert Mays: Look at the results. And I think that is, even if they've had to accelerate their timeline a little bit, and I think there's some downsides to that. I appreciate that. They're trying to get out ahead of some of these problems. And I think the offensive line is the best manifestation of that. My only commentary on that would just be specifically with offensive line play. It can be so much harder than it sounds during the summer. And I appreciate what they've done. I think it will work in the long run. But Tunsell, as good as he is, just got there. Brandon Coleman is playing guard for the first time.

52:56Cosme has not had a camp. and unless they announced it while we were recording the right tackle job isn't officially decided like last time i looked at this i'm calling it you're calling it you know what even if josh connerly wins it you're still talking about a rookie right tackle so like that's fair i think this could be a situation where in the early going of the season at least we're like why doesn't this look better what the hell like they they got all these guys why this was supposed to be great and it's not great it could like it could get much better by the end of the season that is what i would expect to happen that's typically the way things work you need time on task you need all these guys playing together to get that sort of consistency and chemistry i won't be surprised if it doesn't look as beautiful as we hope at least right away now if it does then you could really be cooking with gas but i think i want to at least throw in the

53:50Robert Mays: possibility of that happening i think that's totally fair i think with the right tackle situation, they're very intentional with how they do these early competitions for rookies. They don't hand anybody jobs. Even if they think those guys are projected starters, they didn't do what Jaden last year. They were playing Marcus Mariota in the first part of training camp. That is an organizational philosophy. I think Josh Connerly will probably end up being the right tackle. The other beneficial part of this with the offensive line construction is that they didn't lose any of the starters from last year.

54:19Robert Mays: Those guys are all still there. And so this team has a lot of depth and contingencies along the offensive line that most teams don't have. If you lose Josh Connerly, your right tackle from last year is there. If you lose Brandon Coleman, your left guard from last year is there. And so there is a level of depth, I think, on the offensive and defensive line with this team, even if the defensive line ceiling isn't that high, that a lot of other teams do not enjoy with how their rosters are constructed. I think that's at least worth mentioning. The floor is pretty high with this group. Let's get to the Swing points for the 2025 Washington Commanders, the areas that this season could pivot on for this team.

54:57Robert Mays: Derek, why don't you kick it off your swing point for the 2025 Washington team? I think to me, when I envision this team being good, it has to be the offense being a top five unit again and being capable of scoring 30 points. I know we're excited about the offensive line and I am very excited about the offensive line raising the floor a little bit. if they want to make sure they can still do explosive stuff like Debo Samuel has to be a very, very effective player for them, because last year in terms of explosives, it was a lot of like Jaden Daniels, please do something. Or Terry McLaurin was down the field and he hit him.

55:28And like that was kind of a lot of their explosive, like their screen game was OK, but it was really a lot of like we're either chucking it down the field or Jaden Daniels just did something insane. They did not have a lot of like other tertiary ball carrier has the ball and makes a play with the ball in his hands. Debo Samuel, I think they brought him in exclusively to do that so they can they can do some of this jet stuff. Their screen game can open up a little bit more if they just hit him on a shallow route instead of it going for six yards. He makes one linebacker miss and he picks up 17 like just little stuff like that where they have a player they trust with the ball in his hands who is not Jaden Daniels to get them chunks at a time.

56:03So I think he is like if he is who we saw, you know, four years ago, like or at least some version of that. That to me is how this team maintains like a really, really high level of play.

56:14Robert Mays: What's nice about the Debo Samuel fit with this team is that you don't have to use your imagination about how Debo Samuel gets deployed within this offense. Like there are plenty of offensive systems around the league, Dave, where I'm like, all right, can you make the most out of Debo Samuel? He's a specific type of player. Are you set up to deploy him in the correct ways? I do not have that question about the Washington commanders and Cliff Kingsbury. Like they have this role within their offense at the end of last season, it was just Deami Brown. And so giving all of the Deami Brown touches to Debo Samuel, we saw in the preseason game last night.

56:47Robert Mays: I mean, they're handing jet sweeps to him and the guy when he's healthy and I think he's lost a little bit of weight. I think he's coming into the season healthy, which is a good thing. If they can get 85, 90 percent of what the best version of Debo Samuel looked like in Washington and he can stay healthy. it is a boon for this offense again that knows exactly how to use this type of player it was a little bit of a meme in the early going of last season that jaden just wasn't throwing past the line of scrimmage on a regular basis and obviously that like it changed and we absolved ourselves of a lot of those concerns but like those types of throws and plays are built into this offense cliff king very loves that type of shit and now he's got a guy that can do it at a high level and it's, it's so funny.

57:30I'm trying so hard not to let preseason stuff that I just watched color my opinion. Cause like Debo got that jet sweep on Monday night and I was like, I don't know, that looks pretty damn good. And like, you have to remember like, Hey, it's the preseason, this Bengals defense has, yeah, they got some problems they got to sort through. So I'm trying not to get too excited when I see stuff like that, but it was an encouraging, it was an encouraging site.

57:56Robert Mays: We'll get to the rest of the pass catchers here in a minute. I think Debo is particularly important because of what the rest of that room looks like, but we're going to hit that another one of the categories. My swing point for this team is the pass rush. And, you know, for each of these teams, we're doing swing points and what's keeping you up at night. And there are subtle but important differences with that. And I think before I really started looking at it and before I started looking at some of the numbers and then going to visit Washington, the pass rush is what would have been keeping me up at night.

58:22Robert Mays: The fact that they weren't more urgent in adding edge rusher bodies to this room. And I'm not counting Von Miller in his mid thirties, but in the second round, they did not get one of those edge rushers. They, most of them are gone by the time they picked in the back half of the second round. They did not go for one of the like mercenary guys that signed in the actual rhythm of free agency, the Joey Boses of the world, Josh sweat, uh, DeMarcus Lawrence. I think that they were probably interested in that group. They just got priced out of them. They weren't willing to go to that place. I mean, Joey Bosa and DeMarcus Lawrence are aging players with significant injury histories.

58:54Robert Mays: And so I just think that market got a little bit rich for them. And so they went a completely different direction. They added more bodies to their defensive line. And I think they're just going to be very specific roles for these guys. And so they're banking on waves of players, depth and situational deployment with this group. The thought is, if we can stop the run a little bit better on early downs because the players that we have, and then we can get the pass rushing bodies on the field and define passing situations, are we going to be able to cobble it together in a way that makes sense? I kind of get that, right?

59:28Robert Mays: Like I understand the argument for it. I'd rather just have like one dude that I think can be a terror and they just do not have that guy. but if Dietrich wise can get you into more second and nines and then Von Miller can come in and be that guy off the edge can you kind of make that an amalgam of one player I think that's the thought process we'll see if it actually works out and they were 25th in early down run defense success rate per next gen last year they were bottom 10 in the league and creating second and long opportunities and so if they can be a little bit stouter there and then on third and eight we're getting to a place where it's Von Miller, Johnny Newton, Duran Payne, Dorrance Armstrong, Frankie Louvoo slots in there.

1:00:09Robert Mays: Like, do they have enough to actually get by? I think is going to go a long way in determining how good or just average this defense can be. So that's kind of the thing to me. This is not, I think you can get to that. Like the run defense helps us on passing downs in two different ways. It can be the, we're really good at getting teams into second and nine and second and eight. Cause we just don't, we kind of choke out the air and we just don't give you a whole lot. Or we can be a team that's a little bit volatile and sometimes we give up second and four, but sometimes we get in the backfield.

1:00:36I think they have to be that kind of unit. They have to be like, Arizona was a little bit of this last year, but you have to be the, we're just hoping Javon Kinlaw gets in the backfield. We're hoping Von Miller dips under a tackle and gets in the backfield. I think they have to be that style of run defense to get into these passing downs. So if they can, if their run defense success rate is the same, but they get closer to like average or slightly above average in terms of getting in the backfield,

1:00:58Robert Mays: that to me is how this can work out and they're willing to tap into creative methods if the front four isn't getting there i don't think that's off the table i mean this is a team that had the seventh highest blitz rate in the league last year per next gen they use creepers on third down at the sixth highest rate in the league i mean they're willing to get creative if they don't think those guys are going to be able to get home i think they're going to try to see if we can get there with this group is more than the sum of its parts we're going to use a lot of stunts games etc before they actually tap into the, we got to send more bodies at the problem.

1:01:30Robert Mays: But if they have to break that glass, I think Dan Quinn and Joe with their defensive coordinator are going to be willing to do that. Let's get to what's keeping us up at night. Dave, what is keeping you up at night about the 2025 Washington commanders? I've mentioned it on several occasions and I promise commanders fans, I'll shut up about it until we've played some games after this, but there are just a uniquely large number of players on this roster where you have to at least wonder whether the cliff is approaching. Like you are just asking for a lot of production from a lot of older players.

1:02:10I also promise for these previews, my concerns won't always be so existential, but it is an alarming number of veteran players. I mean, we've gone over it before, but like, just, just like the, the big names playing some of the big positions. Marshawn Lattimore is 29. Will Harris is also 29. Debo Samuel is 29. Terry McLaurin is turning 30 during this like week two of the season. He also hasn't had a camp. Austin Eckler is still kicking around. He is 30. Laramie Tunsell just turned 31. Zach Ertz is 34. Bobby Wagner's 35. Von Miller is 36. That's so many senior citizens that are expected to play meaningful roles on one team.

1:02:57And hopefully they're all great because the commanders will be a more fun team if they are. But I start to worry about the cliff, about running out of juice. And some of these guys, not all of them, but some of these guys are playing roles where you can't really afford them to fall off a cliff. Lattimore in particular, Debo, I think changes the ceiling of this team. McLaurin goes without saying, Tunsil. I would even say Bobby Wagner and like Von Miller doesn't need to be good for this team to be good but him being good again is a ceiling raiser so these are important guys that have played a lot a lot of snaps in their careers and I I think about it often clearly and guys with injury

1:03:40Robert Mays: histories Marshawn Lattimore's been banged up Debo has been banged up and I think that's hugely important for this team to be who it wants to be on both sides of the ball Lattimore and Debo need to be those guys. Lattimore has the fourth highest cap hit among all cornerbacks in the league last year, and they gave away multiple picks to go get him. And I think that's also part of this, Dave, is that this is a team that's older than you think for what we consider an upstart. They have a lot of aging players. They've already traded away like draft picks over the next couple of years. They made five picks this year.

1:04:10Robert Mays: And so you're combining an older roster with fewer draft picks over the next couple of years to restock the cupboard with younger players. so it's just a little bit more fragile because they've accelerated the timeline than year two of a surprise regime typically would be yeah this is the team that is microwaving the window which like i can respect it i get it it's incredibly hard to win in this league and if you really think you can do it go for it but at the same time we also have to recognize that like yeah if half of the players that dave mentioned fall off a little bit and like i know latimore and debo aren't that old but like given their injury history feel three or four years older than they probably are and then guys like Bobby Wagner like I understand that the name is very prevalent, but he can't run the way that he used to.

1:04:56He can't turn and coverage the way that he used to. And if that, you know, gets five, 10 percent worse again, the way that it has the past couple of years, you're looking at a linebacker room that is is Bobby Wagner, who I think really at this stage is only really good between the tackles. And then like Frankie Louvoo is a really fun player, but he's also a very specific player. And if Bobby's not going to potentially play as well, then that starts to become like a little bit more fragile is the right word. Like that just becomes more fragile than it feels when you look at the depth chart right now.

1:05:21Robert Mays: Speaking of fragile, the thing that's keeping me up at night is the pass catcher situation beyond Debo Samuel and Terry McCorin. Debo Samuel, who again has struggled to stay healthy in recent years and can get banged up at a moment's notice. Terry McCorin, who still is not practicing with this team because of the hold in. And if we get back in a couple of days and it's two weeks that he gets to practice, hopefully you get the Terry McCorin that we saw last year. But we've seen this. I mean, Brandon Ayuk was not the same guy last year after sitting out the majority of training camp with that contract dispute.

1:05:52Robert Mays: And so if you're getting a slightly diminished version of Terry McLaurin and Debo Samuel gets banged up, have you looked at the wide receiver depth chart for this team beyond those two guys? Yes, I haven't liked any of it. The next guy up would be Noah Brown, who's also hurt. He's currently hurt. We're talking about Luke McCaffrey, Chris Moore, Michael Gallup, KJ Osborne and Jalen Lane, who they drafted in the fourth round. Like we are very close. The receiving core was bad last year when it comes to the talent. And we are very close to it being that group again without Noah Brown and Deami Brown, who were the next two guys up among that group.

1:06:31Robert Mays: That is concerning to me. And if Debo stays healthy, and that's why he is the swing point on this team for Derek, if he stays healthy and plays well, all of this stuff matters a little bit less. But the current state of that room, we are one Debo Samuel injury away from me being very, very worried about how this is going to go. The point that you made, Robert, was a good one about the Chiefs prioritizing protection for Mahomes and like he can win with Juju Smith Schuster. it's worth pointing out they gave him phenomenal weapons for the first four years of his career before they did that to him like they were very confident he was the best quarterback in the world before they started sending Tyreek Hill out of town and making do with guys that aren't as good as you'd prefer Jaden Daniels in year two probably needs better pass catchers like even even with Terry McLaurin and Debo there, it's, it's good.

1:07:24It's fine. It's not great. And I know you can't have everything, but he's a little early in his career for me to feel comfortable asking that of him. Like, I think it would be better if he had some difference makers.

1:07:37Robert Mays: We talked about it with a couple other position groups. There are some teams that wield the rookie quarterback contract with big money guys. That's, that's how they use the advantage. This team has sort of done that right. Latimore, Laramie Tunsil, Debo to an extent, even though they split up the cap hits. But one of the other ways they've wielded it is with depth for some of these mid-tier veterans that other teams just don't have the flexibility for. The Dietrich Wises of the world, Allegretti, Wiley, the guys that were starters, but now are backups and are on these mid-tier contracts. This team has depth and flexibility at multiple different position groups that I do think insulates it a little bit.

1:08:10Robert Mays: They do not have that at receiver. Receiver is the spot where they absolutely have none of that. And that's what leaves me a little bit worried because I do think that Jaden Daniels is a very good quarterback. I'm not sure he is. We can take Luke McCaffrey to the Super Bowl. Good. Yeah, there's only like three of those. And it's not a it's no shame on him if he's not one of those guys yet. That's OK. Derek, what are you watching in the first month of the season for the Washington Commanders? We're hitting this for every single team. I just want to see what the secondary is supposed to be, because I think last year, obviously first year of Dan Quinn with this defense it was not a corner room that I think he wanted um like Mike Sanger still having to play outside to fix a lot of issues they had Benjamin St.

1:08:53Juice who is like the opposite to me of what a Dan Quinn corner is supposed to like what he's good at like St. Juice to me is a cover two we play zone we put hands on people and it's like cool Dan Quinn wants to play single high and play man coverage and now he's gotten a little bit better bringing some pressures and cover two stuff but like in his heart of hearts I know what Dan Quinn wants.

1:09:10Robert Mays: That's what they want to do. Yeah, exactly. And like this, now the guys that they have now you draft Trey Amos, who to me is like a put hands on you, man coverage corner. They draft there. They signed Jonathan Jones, who his entire time in New England was a put hands on you, get on the line of scrimmage, man coverage corner. Saner still is now supposed to go back to the nickel. So I just want to see, like, are they going to go back to being more of a, we're going to play a lot more single high man coverage and just hope our four or five man pass rush gets home to you. And that's kind of what I'm looking for.

1:09:39Robert Mays: When I was talking to people there about what they needed to do better on defense this year, rushing the passer was not what they said. It was, we want to play better man coverage. We want to be the man coverage team that we aspire to be. They played it at the fifth highest rate in the NFL last year, which was actually higher than I thought because they weren't leaning into it early in the season. But then when Lattimore got there, they were more willing to say, okay, it's time for us to play the way that we want to play. Mixed bag. They were bottom 10 in success rate when they didn't get pressure last year.

1:10:06Robert Mays: They were fourth in success rate when they did get pressure last year. So I think the hope is that normalizes a little bit. Even if we're not getting home because we're bringing extra pressure, can we still hold up in man coverage? And the corner room obviously was different when Lattimore got there, but when you compare the cornerback room of the start of training camp this year to the start of training camp last year, it's entirely different. Like Mikey Sainter still was really the only guy that they're playing and it's not even in the same spot. And so him moving back to the nickel and just getting a focus on that.

1:10:37Robert Mays: And now you have a combination of Amos and Jones on the outside. We'll see what happens there. I think Amos eventually becomes the starter there, even if he's not getting it from day one, we've talked about Lattimore. And so if that group can really be a strength of this team compared to the weakness, the defined weakness it was last year, then I think that they can start playing the style that they want to, and they can be a team that lives in man coverage, even if they're not heating up the quarterback because they're blitzing a ton. what I'm watching over the first month of the season is what happens against man coverage on offense it was the man coverage questions on both sides of the ball because it when I'm thinking about how I would challenge this offense in Jaden Daniels teams are scared to play man coverage against scrambling quarterbacks but if you look at the numbers it doesn't really bear that out like scrambles aren't more effective against man than they are against zone and Jaden Daniels actually had a higher scramble rate against zone coverage last year than he had against man coverage.

1:11:32Robert Mays: And so when I'm looking at this receiver group, and if we want to make the same comparison to, you know, the Mahomes Allen type teams that have skimped on the pass catchers and really built up the offensive line, what teams have done against both of those is that they have really cranked up the man coverage and challenged the pass catchers. It's like, if your pass catchers are not going to be a strength of your team, can we make them beat us? That's what man coverage tells you. And even if we like Debo and his specific role last year, Debo was 92nd among 120 wide receivers and tight ends that had at least 50 targets in EPA per target against man coverage.

1:12:05Robert Mays: That is not what he does well. And that's one of the reasons that teams started doing it so heavily against the Niners. The Washington's best receiver last year on a rate basis against man coverage was Olmeda Zaccheaus. He is no longer here. And so this is a group that is Zach Ertz, Debo, where if you're playing a lot of soft zone, they can hurt you. If you're challenging those guys, what does it look like? And if you look at Jayden's numbers against man last year, he was a 19th and EPA per drop back on non scrambles last year against man coverage. And so now with an entire year of game plan stuff, an entire year of how do we focus on this team?

1:12:44Robert Mays: Are we going to see more controlled rushes where you're crushing the pocket a little bit, playing man, trying to keep him contained and say, we're going to make the receivers on this team beat us. And so that's what I'm looking for. If teams start leaning into the plan that we saw from like the Steelers last year against this team, a game where Washington's offense really struggled. Not everyone's set up to do that. But if we see more game plans tailored that way, does this team have the firepower and the flexibility to respond well to more of those man coverage looks where they struggled a little bit last year relative to how well they did against zone?

1:13:15And I'm like kind of dubious of that, because, again, Debo Samuel, even if Debo Samuel has a good year, that's never what it's looked like for Debo Samuel is beating man coverage. So like that is certainly part of it. We talked about all the other options like Zachary, it's your starting tight end is not beating man coverage. All of the other tertiary receivers probably aren't. And then even though I think McLaurin can, I think some of the success that they had against man coverage last year was like, oh, Terry McLaurin has a one on one. I'm just going to hit him down the field. Well, what if your deep ball success falls a little bit?

1:13:45Because that stuff, even though Jane Daniels, I think, is a very good deep passer. What if you just get like a little bit more unlucky there? And that hurts you a little bit. So like that's I think bringing up their their ability to beat man coverage is pretty important. What I'm hearing is Jaden's got to get a little more comfortable living in the tight window world, which is my other criticism of him. He does need to do that.

1:14:06Robert Mays: But if you don't have the receivers you trust in that world, does that work? And I think that's the problem with this team. If teams start challenging them a little bit more. And one of the other elements of this is this team does not use a lot of motion in a motion heavy world because of the tempo that they play with. And so I think that playing a little bit more man against them because you're not having to worry about some of the buttons other teams can press to take advantage of man coverage. There's a lot of things stacking up to I want to see defenses challenge them and I want to see how they respond.

1:14:34Robert Mays: The most important supporting character for this team, and I promise you, I want to talk about this guy before his highlight blocks on Monday Night Football last night. I'm going with blocking tight end John Bates, and I want to talk about him for a few different reasons here. This team last year, defenses account for them in a unique way in the run game. Even to their 12 personnel, because of Zach Ertz and because of how spread out they play, they saw the fourth lightest boxes in the league last season to their 12 personnel. They had 84 carries into nickel out of 12 last year, Washington did.

1:15:11Robert Mays: Only the Chiefs, Eagles, and Ravens had more, and they were second in the NFL and EPA per carry on those runs. and Bates is a big part of that because of how they can weaponize him as a blocker. And this comes in two different forms. If you watch the way that they use him, he truly, and he got paid$7 million a year this off season to do exactly this. He can hold up at the point of attack against edge rushers in a way that most tight ends in the NFL just cannot do anymore. If you want him one-on-one to handle an edge rusher, he can do it, which is a rarity these days. But the other thing, Derek, that just sticks out to me when I watch him, He's incredible moving to the second level and blocking in space.

1:15:50Robert Mays: And so if you watch this run game, they do a lot of leaving the end man on the line of scrimmage because they're doing a ton of read stuff with Jaden Daniels. And so you'll see John Bates influence the end man on the line of scrimmage and then move to the second level. And his ability to track guys in space and then stick and then maintain contact with them, no matter what's happening, is incredibly impressive. like he is just he has this strange ability to be able to track down guys and latch on to them in whether it's corner safeties linebackers as he's moving to the second level he is like perfectly tailored to be a weapon in the run game for this team specifically and i am not surprised at all that he got rewarded this offseason for exactly that yeah he's like outside of the truly truly like special blocking tight ends the george kittles like rob gronkowski at truly his peak usually tight ends fall into the line of like they're a really good athlete so they can get to the right spot and they can just be a roadblock or like if we're running straight behind them they can move people a little bit the way that like i don't know darnell washington can the john bates is where they're actually very good in space and can move linebackers once they get to the second level which again in that monday night game we saw it he put demetrius knight and pushed him into logan wilson who was trying to scrape over the top like that the fact that he does that like regularly and I know Knights are rookie and stuff like that is something Bates can do.

1:17:13It's a huge part of their offense because they can. This is a run game that wants to be diverse. So if they want to do some of this, they're running gun power behind him and he's got to like help on it and then climb up to the second level. He can do that if they want to run some of the arc read stuff where they're getting him out, moving in space to go be kind of a cavalry man in front of Jaden Daniels out on the perimeter on some of his runs. He can absolutely do some of that stuff. So I think when we talk about the offensive line, hopefully being a better run blocking unit with guys like Connerly and guys like Tunsell, I think having Bates a part of that equation is a big part of it for them.

1:17:47Robert Mays: Dave, who is your most important supporting character for the Washington Commanders? Well, if we're mentioning guys that starred on Monday night, yeah, like this feels redundant if you watched the Bengals commanders game. But I held off buying into the hype about Ja 'Cory Krosky Merritt for a long time, which Bill Krosky Merritt, by the way, apparently that's what he prefers to go by, which just rules. But when you're leaving Brian Robinson home from a preseason game because you're thinking that hard about trading him, then I got to I got to pay attention and I got to take this seriously. And of course he, he broke out with an explosive touchdown run, pretty much the main highlight of his night.

1:18:26But yeah, I think you saw why commander's camp has been buzzing about this guy. And if Brian Robinson is in fact traded, then all bets are off in terms of like who the lead back is in this room. I mean, Eckler's still there. Chris Rodriguez also had a really nice run on Monday night against the Bengals, but this is a guy they just drafted. Clearly the regime, like they, they brought him in. So clearly they're high on him. If Brian Robinson's not getting in the way, then I absolutely understand why this is a name that's been buzzing around social media for the last couple of weeks.

1:18:59Robert Mays: We don't typically see this. I mean, the last guy that kind of did this was Isaiah Pacheco in a backfield that didn't really have any established guys. And Brian Robinson has kind of been an established guy for this team over the last couple of years. And so the fact that they're willing to move on from him for potentially for Ja 'Cory Krosky Merritt in that role within the offense or some combination of him and Chris Rodriguez, I think says a lot about how quickly he's come along. I mean, when I was there again, it was early August and it was pretty early in training camp and they were already in a spot where they were like, we have real competition at running back because of this guy that we drafted.

1:19:29Robert Mays: So not at all surprised that they are excited about him and what he's bringing to the table. Derek, what counts as a successful season for the Washington commanders? We're answering this question for all 32 of these teams in our previews. so I think it's winning the division and then also like a to me the read the way they would win the division is like I would like Cliff Kingsbury to prove to me that this is real like I think if he can prove that he is a guy who is like truly built for the long term for this that is an extremely successful Washington season Dave it's twofold really I'm gonna start with the important thing all that really matters for me when you have a 24 year old quarterback who's on the cusp of greatness is just solidifying that that is true.

1:20:16Like we, and obviously CJ Stroud got his team to the playoffs last year. It wasn't a disaster, but we, I don't want the CJ Stroud experience. I don't want to be back at the podcast table next off season. Like, well, this is, you know, life in the NFL is hard. No, like I want Jaden Daniels to be the man. I want him to look like an MVP candidate and the first guy in the next tier, you know? And on top of that, if he is that guy, then the commanders will at least be in the mix. Like you, you're not going to have a quarterback that good and suck. So if Jaden Daniels is that dude, that is the biggest priority.

1:20:53But if he is, they'll, they'll be a playoff contender. As long as they're on the graphic in the last weekend of the season and Jaden Daniels is awesome. Then I think this was a success even like playoff games and wins don't necessarily matter to me this year even if that would be fun but if Jaden is good all of that will come I almost think that's more important Derek

1:21:15Robert Mays: than the Cliff Kingsbury question because if cling if Cliff does it again he's just gonna be a head coach again I mean that's gonna be the end result of that and so I think that Jaden kind of establishing himself as that guy is probably more important for the long-term health of the Washington commanders. That is true. I guess for me, it was like, I have more faith that Jaden Daniels can do that with cliff Kingsbury. I'm a little bit more like let's we'll see it again. I think running back the offensive quality and success from last year would be a good one to include as like what makes up a successful season.

1:21:45Robert Mays: To me, it was just 10 wins in a playoff berth. Like if the offense can be good and the defense can be average, and this is like a 10 or 11 win team and they get back to the playoffs began because they can win the same number of games this year and be a significantly better team that's a little bit less lucky and I think if that's the end result I have no issue with that whatsoever I think that is a success and then you're building to something potentially in 2026 when you can really round out the areas of this roster that are still relative weaknesses I think it just depends because again to bring the Texans back up like the Texans won 10 games and won their division and we just argued for a half hour over whether we think they're a good team.

1:22:26Like we just did that a week or two ago, but the Texans were like the 27th best offense in the league last year as

1:22:31Robert Mays: part of that equation. I think for Washington to be a success, you need to be like the seventh best offense in the league and be a 10 win team. If they are a 10 win team because Jaden and their offense kick ass, then, then yes, I, yes, absolutely. Yes. Because that's the thing that has staying power. Our 2025 Dallas Cowboys preview. If you're watching this on YouTube, we would love if you liked and subscribe. Please leave your thoughts and comments below. Anything you take issue with predictions that you have for this division. Anybody you think we should be, we should have talked about a little bit more as part of this conversation.

1:23:05Robert Mays: We would love to hear from you. The Dallas Cowboys off season in 60 seconds, hire Brian Schottenheimer as their head coach. I just forgot that happened. Hire Matt Eberflues as a defensive coordinator, hired Clayton Adams from the Cardinals as their offensive coordinator. Other notable hires, Nick Sorensen as the special teams coordinator. He was the defensive coordinator for the Niners last year, which is interesting. Ken Dorsey comes in as a pass game specialist. We'll talk about the offensive staff a little bit later. Michael Parsons currently holding in. Extended Osa de Guizu of four years,$80 million,$39 million guaranteed.

1:23:36Robert Mays: Acquired George Pickens from the Steelers for a third round pick next year. Jake Ferguson back on a four-year$50 million deal with$28 million guaranteed. Kevante Turpin back three years,$13.5 million,$5 million guaranteed. Small deals in free agency for Solomon Thomas, Dante Fowler Jr., Robert Jones, Javante Williams. They also traded for Kenneth Murray and Kair Elam. Everyone's cast off first round picks are now Dallas Cowboys. Lost to Marcus Lawrence, Jordan Lewis, Brandon Cooks, Chauncey Golston, Rico Doudle, and Cooper Rush in free agency. As far as the draft goes, Tyler Booker, guard overall, or 12th overall in the first round.

1:24:09Robert Mays: Donovan Ezraku, second round, 44th overall at the edge. Siobhan Revell, cornerback, third round, 76th overall. Dave, what are you excited about watching with the 2025 Dallas Cowboys? Listen, there's, there's a long list of malaise and things that are not exciting, but about the Dallas Cowboys and we will get into that. But I'm so freaking excited to watch Dak Prescott play with two, you could even say three quality options depends on how high you are on Jake Ferguson. last year was a down year. I think he's a pretty good tight end. Obviously, CeeDee Lamb and George Pickens being the headliners.

1:24:51I feel like, at least from my perspective, people memory hole what Dak is capable of just as a quarterback because of the playoff failure. But the bottom line is when he's got weapons in his offense, watch out, man. He was a 4 ,900-yard passer as far back as 2019. He came like a yard away from the single season franchise record when he had Amari Cooper, Michael Gallup, Randall Cobb, and the oldest possible version of Jason Witten. Then in 2021, he goes 4 ,500 yards with Amari, CD, Cedric Wilson, injured Michael Gallup, and Dalton Schultz. And then obviously a couple of years ago, he was second team, all pro 4 ,500 yards, 70 % passing completions.

1:25:38And that was just with washed Brandon cooks. That wasn't even with somebody of George Pickens's caliber. So top five receiver in C.D. Lamb, a very, very exciting young receiver in George Pickens. Everything else about the Cowboys might be a dumpster fire right now, but this passing attack should be a hell of a lot of fun. I'm so excited to watch it. I mean, it's literally that simple for them, right? Like you have like like in 2023, again, when the when the receiving core was theoretically worse than it's going to be than it was this year, like Dak was the Dak was the MVP that year until like December 8th, basically.

1:26:17Like he for a majority of that year felt like he was going to win the MVP and then Lamar kind of stole it towards the end. I'm just everyone at this point.

1:26:26Robert Mays: Important caveat about them playing the worst slate of opposing defenses. That was a very generous interpretation of what happened, but I was just going to let it slide. That's he was fortunate to play the slate that he played. But like he was I think he was the betting favorite for a majority of that season, again, because like he was allowed to go play a lot of the worst teams. But he made the most advantage of it like he is. Dak is a quarterback who, by virtue of being incredibly aggressive when it's good, man, it's good. good. And I think when you have a guy like CeeDee Lamb, who I think we all know he's good, but I think like there is we don't forget that he can be like the third best receiver in the league, but I really would not be shocked if he was again behind Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson.

1:27:09Like if he put up, you know, 1600 yards and did something crazy, I don't think that would be off the table. George Pickens, I think, is a complicated player at times, but I think Dak is the perfect quarterback to unlock him because he will throw to him at any level in any window. And that is the exact type of thing that George Pickens does well and then Ferguson's the same way Ferguson doesn't really like run away from people all that much but man he can get up to see him and catch a contested ball and that's all the Dak wants to throw anyway so like their passing game in terms of the players that they've collected around him it's the first time Dak has had a good wide receiver two in years and I'm pretty excited to see what that looks like again you need a second receiver you just if you're going to be a real NFL offense you need a second

1:27:50Robert Mays: receiver. And it's this simple. And I was talking to people when I was in Oxnard for training camp, just about this and how it changes the dynamics of the offense. This is not revolutionary. This is very simple thinking about football. If you're going to cloud CD lamb side and you have a one-on-one matchup to the other side, do you have a player that can take advantage of that one-on-one matchup? And for all of the warts of George Pickens is game. And there are plenty of concerns to be had about the long-term health of George Pickens on your team based on how it went in Pittsburgh. If you throw him some one-on-one opportunities, fades, slants, anything where he's able to kind of use the physicality he's bringing to the table, he can win in those scenarios.

1:28:31Robert Mays: He absolutely can. And so I think that having a true number two receiver where you can find a guy that if you're going to leave him one-on-one, you're going to pay for it relatively often. That is not something this team has been able to enjoy. And think about the other guys that you mentioned, Derek. Think about how the Bengals offense is built. Think about how the Vikings offense is built. Those teams have number two receivers. Think about the way the Eagles are, the way the Dolphins are with Tyreek Hill. Any guy that has been like a consensus top five receiver in the league for the past couple seasons has had at least a serviceable number two receiver on his team, except for CD Lamb.

1:29:07Robert Mays: So not only does this make the offense better, there is a chance that this makes CD Lamb better because of who he's getting to play with. And that's actually really important because CD Lamb, I think we've talked about this maybe before but like I think it's really cool and admirable for what CeeDee Lamb has been able to become in terms of really becoming more of an outside player than he was early in his career the best ball from CeeDee Lamb is him still working from the slot like he is a uniquely explosive player from the slot he has really really good hands he's very tough going over the middle of the field like a lot of the slot he's part of that is because he is built bigger than a lot of other guys who would normally work out of the slot and he's just able to go up against linebackers safeties and take those hits like he is just when I envision CeeDee Lamb at his best it's a lot of like how the Lions treat a Monroe St.

1:29:54Brown except that CeeDee Lamb is also more explosive with the ball in his hands like that it's like he's kind of a special player in that way and so if by virtue of getting pickings in there and then some of the other tertiary receivers just taking sacrificial snaps outside we get more lamb back in the slot that's how he is like goes up to be like a triple crown type of receiver again.

1:30:14Robert Mays: The receiving group is better, but it's still mostly two guys and Jake Ferguson, the deepest area of this roster. And the thing that I am excited to watch. And with one big caveat, when Micah Parsons comes back and my pretty big going to be back, Micah Parsons is going to play. Micah Parsons is going to be on the Cowboys. They are going to figure this out in the same way that they always do. When you drop Micah Parsons back into this defense. The edge rushing group here is Micah Parsons. Donovan has a rock who they drafted in the second round and has reportedly had a very nice training camp. Marshawn Ewan, who they drafted in the second round last year, player that could potentially take a step.

1:30:49Robert Mays: Sam Williams, who was, Dave, you can attest to this, was really, really exciting heading into last season before getting hurt and missing the entire year. And they now have Dante Fowler. I mean, this is a group that goes like five deep on the edge potentially for the Cowboys. and they're going to need it considering the state of their defensive tackle room, which we're going to talk about in a little bit. But if all of those guys become like something akin to the best version of themselves, I'm really looking forward to watching what this group can do coming off the edge. It's pretty wild how they like, it's been a roller coaster for the edge rushers because they were so good when Dan Quinn was there.

1:31:27Obviously, they just like to Marcus Lawrence leave this offseason and it looked like it was taking a downturn. And you're like, oh, edge rusher is a sneaky big need for this team. But first of all, as much as people rag on their free agency activities, and rightfully so, they refuse to ever spend money or try to improve the team. But getting Dante Fowler back for not a lot of money after a double digit sack season, a guy that I never really thought they should have let leave for Washington in the first place, considering he's never signed a major contract like he's he's very nicely settling into that um leonard floyd role where he's just like yeah who wants to pay me a few million to rush the passer this year like that sounds great so you get him back donovan azaraku falls in your lap we've we talked about him at the start of camp where you know dane had a top 25 grade on him and they get him in the second round so eight months after thinking this position was kind of looking down a little bit it is very very healthy and obviously sam williams azaraku marshawn neelan's another one like these guys need to hit on their potential.

1:32:31But if even a couple of them do, this could be a very, very scary group provided one of the best football players in the entire league is doing the majority of that work, which I agree with you. I think he will. Yeah, like pie in the sky pass rush, right, is having what the Texans have where you have Daniel Hunter and Will Anderson Jr., where you have two like all pro players. But realistically, the best way to get a good pass rush is you have one of those aces like a Micah Parsons, and then you just fill out the depth with a bunch of these mid-round picks and decent free agents and they have Dallas has done a really really good job of that and the other thing too it's not just that they have all these bodies that can really help with making sure you always have waves of guys but like Marshawn Nealand is a pretty solid run defender he's got some size to him Donovan as a rocker is not the biggest guy but he's long and actually a pretty good run defender himself so you've got all these pieces where again we'll talk about the defensive tackles capacity to defend the run, but at least on the edge, I think they actually have some decent guys to do that.

1:33:28Robert Mays: The swing points for the 2025 Cowboys, the areas of the roster, just general areas, period, where this season could pivot. Derek, what do you got for me? Where is this Dallas Cowboys season potentially going to swing? I think it's the young offensive line plus Clayton Adams. Like, I think that combination could, could really do a lot for them. Clayton Adams. I'm pretty excited about, you know, we've talked about a million times over the course of the season with what Arizona was doing with their run game last year. So he was the offensive line coach in Arizona before getting this job. Yeah. And he was, you know, for as much as I think we're excited about Drew Petsing and stuff like most of the cool stuff in Arizona was their run game.

1:34:03And so I'm really excited for what Adams is going to bring there in part because Dallas's run game last year felt pretty bland and was truly one of the worst in the league. So that is certainly part of it. But then this young offensive line, I think is easy to get excited about because of all the capital invested into it but like outside of tyler smith there's not that much like okay i know this guy is really good like tyler smith sight unseen very good player cooper bb i think was promising as a young center i think he's still more in like the league average you want to see him take a step tyler booker i think a promising first round player a dude who really has a lot of power to him even if he's not the best athlete you still don't know how a guy is going to play in his first year and then tyler guyton who showed some stuff as a rookie last year but it was a lot of up and down and then he's been not healthy and we don't know when he's really going to come back and feel good so there's some volatility here it's just one of those things if if they can get to like their 80th percentile outcome for what that could look like plus clayton adams bringing some stuff in this could be a much different offense than i think we saw from them last year i think it's

1:35:04Robert Mays: going to take a little bit of time especially with tyler guy not having practice for them to figure out what they want their identity to be their identity to be on the ground we talked about this on a couple other shows and discussing the tower guide and injury, but in talking to people when I was there at training camp and Clayton Adams specifically about the history of that Arizona run game, when they got to Arizona, the thought was not going to be, we're going to have this gap scheme pin pull run game. That's going to become one of the best in the league. Drew Petsing is like a wide zone guy with like from the Kevin Stefanski world.

1:35:34Robert Mays: Like they did not anticipate becoming that sort of run game. It took trial and error and it took them learning their personnel and not having Tyler Guyton for all of training camp, you lose some of that experimentation time, even if you have the other guys. And I think this is going to move into the season as they figure out, all right, what is our run game? What is the best way to structure this thing? And how can we make sure we're getting the most out of these individual pieces? It might take six, eight weeks to lean into that, but based on what Clayton Adams did in Arizona, I do have faith and their ability to find the right answer and try to put these guys in the right spots.

1:36:11I think my swing point ties nicely in with all of that because it feels like it needs to happen for the Cowboys run game to be anything remotely remarkable. And it's a, it's a tough time of year to evaluate this stuff, right? Like training camp practices are not going to give you a great idea of the run game and starters, especially for the Cowboys starters, don't get a ton of playing time in the preseason. But I haven't seen anything come out of Cowboys camp that gives me a lot of optimism that the Cowboys have enough in the running back room. And like, you know, the Tyler Booker pick could mitigate that.

1:36:50Clayton Adams could mitigate that. But you look at it as the season is on the horizon and you're like, are Javante Williams and Miles Sanders and a couple of rookies like, are they going to move the needle that much? Are both of those veterans even a lock to make the team like this does miles sanders make the final roster here we haven't seen jaden blue he had a bone bruise in practice he hasn't played in the preseason i think he's gonna play in the preseason finale which is nice uh the seventh round pick phil moffa has had some nice moments in the preseason but does any of that give you confidence like it's easy to say oh somebody can run for a thousand yards if the scheme and the offensive line are good enough but is that actually true when you have the worst running back room in the NFL or am I wrong that it's not like maybe it's not but that that's how I feel what three weeks out from the start of the season you need

1:37:42Robert Mays: the best offensive line in football period in order to do that right that you need like one of the best three or four lines in the league you need to be like the 2016 Cowboys I know that team had Ezekiel Elliott but I mean Darren McFadden and DeMarco Murray were doing work before Ezekiel Elliot got there. DeAndre Swift got paid a lot of money because he was playing behind the Eagles offensive line. So did Miles Sanders. Yes. If those guys can, if that offensive line can be something close to one of the best offensive lines in the league, the running backs don't won't matter. I just have a lot of questions about whether that's going to be possible, even in the best outcome.

1:38:21Robert Mays: I think the Dallas Cowboys offensive line is like a top half of the league line, not one of the best five elite lines in the NFL. Yeah. If they're going to be like a really really good run game it has to be they have to get some help from the backs and i it has to be jayden blue i'd like javante both javante williams javante williams is coming out of a backfield that like let a bunch of their running backs go so that they could draft a running back and then sign another one in in denver uh and then miles sanders like the panthers kind of signed him to be the starter and then very quickly realized that that was not going to be the case and just let chuba harvard basically take over the job um so it really has to be jayden blue and even the complication with that is like one you already mentioned that he's been a little bit banged up so he's not probably getting as many reps as he wants and I think that's going to be part of it also he was a fifth round pick and also he's 195 pounds even if he's good he's not going to be your 300 touches a season type of player and so even in the case where Jaden blue works out you still need to get pretty good play out of Javante Williams and Miles Sanders which really has never happened from them outside of like truly ideal circumstances all right well let's let's change the tone of this here what's keeping you up at night Derek about the 2025 Dallas Cowboys uh so a little bit the running back room but to me this might be the worst secondary in the NFL and I am pretty worried about what that room looks like um Trevon Diggs I don't think he's good he's not going to be healthy for this season so that is a big we've not talked about this nearly enough no this is legitimately a talking point blinking red lights caliber of bad because I've heard it and like seen a little bit and I've tried to do some of it myself of like optimism of like Dallas can make the playoffs because you look at the offenses like you can really start to sell yourself there and you look at the secondary man Kair Elam is going to have to start at corner for them who the Bills who have tried forever to try to get new corners in the building and new blood in the building at that spot we're like we're good with this experiment and we don't want to do this anymore probably come on hall is going to start for them at the nickel, which that scares me a lot.

1:40:24And then their other outside corner is the Ron Bland, who like I know he caught a bunch of picks a couple of years ago, but he is an incredibly volatile player. And if he is one of your big time starting corners, that's an issue. And then their safety room is like inoffensive, like Donovan and Wilson and Malik Hooker, like have their moments. They're solid players. But that's a bigger problem when you don't have any good corners. And so I'm just really worried about what this unit is going to look like.

1:40:48Robert Mays: we'll see what happens when either digs or revel come back from injury and how quickly they can solve some of those problems but dave it doesn't seem like we have any sort of clarity on the timelines for either of those guys and so i am genuinely worried about what this group is going to look like the cowboys do this frequently and i think it ties back you can find a million quotes where jerry jones is just an eternal optimist like he is a glass half full kind of guy and And why wouldn't he be with all the success he's had in his life, I guess. But do you know how insane it sounds to just be like, yeah, well, Trayvon destroyed his knee in December and the rookie we drafted in the third round who's never played in the NFL like that happened in September.

1:41:35So, you know, they'll be back at some point in the fall and we'll just plug them in and it'll be good. And that will solve that problem like that. respectfully is the way that like Madden players think about football. Like you would hear like a fan say that and be like, man, it's, it's way more complicated than that. But this appears to be the strategy of the front office of the team. And it's, it's crazy. And I mean, I know, you know, Steven Jones told reporters at training camp that they're aware that they have a cornerback issue, but this is the type of, this is the type of problem that needed to be fixed in the spring.

1:42:13And from the sounds of it, Kair Elam has played well at camp. I personally don't think that's enough. So maybe this is a situation where you try to do a roster cut down trade or something. But even still, trading for the last man out of somebody else's cornerback room is still not enough. Like this unit needed way more help. And it seems too late to do anything meaningful about it. I have heard good things about Zion Childress, the undrafted rookie that they have in their camp. So I don't know. Maybe they can cobble something together. But for my money, I think you're just banking on Micah Parsons in the pass rush being that good, which, by the way, Micah Parsons hasn't had a camp.

1:42:56So it's all it's all very weird and frustrating.

1:43:00Robert Mays: If you're looking for an outside corner right now, the Indianapolis Colts just did this. They need an outside corner after losing Justin Wally. They just signed Zavian Howard, who did not play football in the NFL last year. That's the state of let's try to find an outside corner right now. There are plenty of teams trying to do it. The pool you're choosing from, you're not going to like it. Derek, we talked about that during the training camp questions episode. I mean, if you want to do a reunion with Stefan Gilmore, now that the hard part of camp is over, I'm not saying that's exciting, but it would be a hell of a lot better than what we're talking about right now.

1:43:33at this point, it's, I would feel whatever degree comfortable more I can get with this unit. That would, that's probably about as good as we're going to get. So they might as well.

1:43:42Robert Mays: If the corners were the only issue with this defense personnel wise, that would be one thing. What's keeping me up at night is the current state of the defensive tackle room for the Dallas Cowboys. Our guy, John Machado, who covers the Cowboys for the athletic wrote this morning on August 19th, that Mozzie Smith might not make the team. Oh my God. I mean, so if he doesn't can we say that's surprising he's not been good he's been an issue for them for sure we know this they were 32nd in the nfl in defensive epa per carry epa per carry last year on defense the cowboys were 30th and run defense success rate per next gen they were 23rd in success rate in the second half of the season but they were still 31st in epa per carry on the ground per next gen stats other than mozzie smith here are the other guys vying for playing time in that defensive line rotation.

1:44:28Robert Mays: Former Brown Perry on Winfrey, seventh round pick Jay Toya and Tommy Akin Basote. That's what we're talking about here. So two seventh round picks in a former Browns defensive tackle coming from a unit famous from a room that famously does not have good defensive tackles. It's a concern. It's a huge concern. And that's why I think it was the exact right point to make Derek where the offense, you can get there. If the offensive line gels and Tyler Guyton comes back and this is like the seventh best offense in the league and Pickens really thrives in that situation. You can get excited about that, but it's really hard to get there with the current state of the defense, even if Micah Parsons comes back, just because we have whole position groups where there are serious question marks here as we get to the eve of the season.

1:45:16Robert Mays: David, what are you watching in the first month of the season with the Dallas Cowboys? I prefer to just focus on the offense because it's the fun side of the team. And you mentioned it already, but I'm just curious to see what Tyler Guyton looks like having unfortunately not really had a ton of camp, right? Like he got hurt when it was still July. It was relatively early on into camp. So that's a month plus of reps and no preseason that you're talking about for a guy who was raw last year, who struggled last year. And we don't officially know whether he'll be back in time for the regular season.

1:45:52It's a four to six week recovery time. So if you're doing mental math, maybe he can sneak back in for the season opener. Maybe it's more realistic to think that it's week two or even week three. We'll see. But either way, he's jumping into the season without as much training camp as you would prefer. And it's not as if the Cowboys get breaks here. Like you open the season against the Eagles. Week two is the Giants, which if they got nothing else, we know they got a pass rush. Then it's the Bears and then it's the Packers. I mean, there are no weeks off at the beginning of this season for a left tackle who hasn't played as much football as you'd prefer.

1:46:30So how good he looks, how he reacclimates and how the Cowboys manage that. I'm sure Clayton Adams can scheme around it as need be. But I think it's, you know, we want to watch Dak throw for 350 yards a game. He needs his left tackle playing well if he's going to do stuff like that.

1:46:47Robert Mays: Speaking of how Clayton Adams schemes this up, what I'm watching is how dynamic is this offense feel compared to how static it has felt at times over the last few years. Last season, in the short time that we saw him, I guess half the season we saw him, Dak Prescott had a 21.3 % tight window throw rate per next gen. That was the highest in the NFL. Some of that is self-inflicted. Some of that is the way that Dak Prescott plays football. I don't think it's an accident that Cooper Rush finished third in that exact statistic last year. This is a static offense that makes it very hard on the quarterback.

1:47:19Robert Mays: And they've only become more of that over the last couple of years. They had an 18.8 % play action rate, which is bottom 10 in the NFL. They're below average motion rate, below average shift rate. Last year, they used multi-tight end sets at the 29th highest rate in the NFL. This was a static offense that just didn't have a lot of variety of diversity to it. What does it look like this year? because you compare those multi-tight end sets to what the Cardinals did. The Cowboys had 180 snaps with multiple tight ends on the field last year. It was the fourth lowest rate in the league. The Cardinals had 498 of those.

1:47:55Robert Mays: I don't think that's necessarily a good or bad thing. I'm just wondering, does the offense feel more dynamic and more diverse as they move to a new set of ideas? I know Brian Schottenheimer is carrying over, but the rest of the offensive staff is different. Their offensive line coach comes from the college game. He was the Kansas State offensive line coach when Cooper Beebe was there. Clayton Adams has a very different background than what the Cowboys offense looked like last season. Do we see more motion? Do we see more personnel diversity? They have a fullback on this team. What do they use that to kind of, how do they use that to kind of create layers in the run game?

1:48:28Robert Mays: Do we see more motion with this team just to make things a little bit easier? Or is some of that static deployment and some of the way the offense feels, is that because of Dak and the way that he wants to play? So as we change over here to a staff that I do think might be more open to some of these ideas. Do we see a different version of the Dallas offense, even when you're taking into account the preferences and choices of the quarterback? I think some of that is how like Dak Dak likes to play. But sometimes you got to lead these guys away from like their worst stuff. Like Joe Burrow was the same way.

1:49:03Like Joe Burrow has some stuff where you had to force him to throw the middle of the field a little bit more. And they had to. I know that that was a little bit different, but like sometimes you got to bring these guys. It's honestly not that different.

1:49:12Robert Mays: And it's actually really funny because the Bengals have kind of had to incept Joe Burrow into accepting these things. They've had to trick him into thinking that they're his ideas. And the offense has benefited because of that. Can the Cowboys do the same thing? Can they get to a place where it's like, you know, Dak, like we'd be better off if you were willing to do some of this stuff. And then you convince him it's in his best interest. I'll be curious to see where they land as part of that push and pull. Same. Yeah, if they can convince him like, hey, man, when CeeDee Lamb has a running head start, he's going to be open more.

1:49:45Would you like that?

1:49:47Robert Mays: What counts as a successful season for the Dallas Cowboys, Dave? Do you want the cynical answer or the sincere answer? Let's go sincere answer. The sincere answer is that the offense really is that good. Dak plays like the guy that we remember from a couple of years ago. This is one of the best receiver duos in the league. And even with the offensive struggles, they fight their way to a winning record and maybe a playoff berth. You know, if they're nine and eight and the first team out of the playoffs or if they magically, you know, sneak in as a wild card, I think that would be a successful season.

1:50:23I mean, if they somehow manage to win the division, throw the parade. But yeah, I think a winning record and potentially a playoff berth would be sincere, would be good. I'm not I'm not saying this just because they brought in Clayton Adams but like if you are what the Cardinals kind of were last year where you are a frisky like hovering around 500 pretty good shootout offense type of team sometimes you put up 35 on a team like they did against the Dolphins sometimes uh you just get your shit pushed in and like you just don't have a good game but if like they for the most part are a frisky eight nine win team I think that's success for them

1:50:58Robert Mays: yeah I think wild card to me is like the best case scenario where like they are a really good offense the defense is passable and they manage to stumble into 10 wins and they get into the playoffs that that to me is success but I don't think they need to make the playoffs to feel good about it I think is does the offense feel more dynamic and do we get an offensive line that feels like a young emerging unit and does that point to success moving forward with the Brian Schottenheimer regime to me that's success for this team before we get to the Giants we're going to take one more quick break. This episode is brought to you by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results.

1:51:36If you're running a business or managing finance, you know how easy it is to get drowned in software hype. Tools that promise the world will leave you stuck doing manual grunt work. Stop the guesswork and start scaling with the proven choice. AI-powered efficiency. Their AI-powered accounts payable automation erases the busy work of capturing invoices and routing approvals, syncing seamlessly with top accounting software so you can focus on growth. Proven track record and finance unproven tools make no sense. Bill is trusted by nearly half a million businesses and their accountants to manage, move, and maximize their money.

1:52:08And they've securely processed over a trillion dollars in real transactions. Simplifying operations. Bill is not just moving money, they're simplifying financial operations for nearly half a million customers. Talk with a payments expert at bill.com slash proven and get a$150 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Question for any pet owners. Of course, we all love our pets, but do you ever think about just how much joy and energy your pet brings to your household?

1:52:45Something that's been on my mind a lot recently because I spent a healthy chunk of the summer out of town away from our dog, Mozzie. and getting back to him really made me think about just how much he does for my quality of life, my mental health, and how I would do anything to keep his derpy little face bopping around next to me for as long as possible. I bring it up because today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. If you've ever found yourself awake at 2 a.m., phone in hand, googling things like, is this normal for dogs? Or do I need to call a vet right now? You are not alone.

1:53:21Those unexpected moments are part of having a pet, which is exactly why ASPCA Pet Health Insurance exists. It helps take some of the financial stress out of vet care so you can focus more on your pet and less on the cost. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans that can fit your budget, your lifestyle, and even your pet's particular quirks. Because let's be honest, vet bills can add up fast. ASPCA Pet Health Insurance has been around for almost 30 years and has covered over 1 million pets. And when it's time to submit a claim, it's easy. Just use their app and receive reimbursement for eligible vet bills directly into your bank account so you can get back to focusing on what really matters, your pet.

1:54:02To explore coverage, visit ASPCAPetInsurance.com slash athletic football. That's ASPCAPetInsurance.com slash athletic football. Again, that's ASPCAPetInsurance.com slash athletic football. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Limited. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5 % cash back at different categories each quarter on up to$1 ,500 in purchases.

1:54:45That's 5 % cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to Discover. Terms apply. See discover.com slash five for details.

1:55:01Robert Mays: All right, the New York Giants. Our preview for the 2025 Giants. They're off season in 60 seconds. Signed Paulson Adebo, three years, 54 million. Javon Holland, three years, 45 million. Russell Wilson, one year, 10 million. Darius Slayton, three years, 36 million, 22 guaranteed to come back to this team. Chauncey Golston, three years, 18 million. James Hudson, Roy Robertson, Harris, Jameis Winston. They lost Aziz Ojalary, Drew Locke, Jason Pinnock, and Adoree Jackson in free agency. Drafted Abdul Carter with the third overall pick. Jackson Dart with the 25th overall pick. Darius Alexander, a defensive tackle in the third round.

1:55:33Robert Mays: And running back Cam Scadabo in the fourth round. Derek, what are you most excited about watching with the 2025 Giants? I mean, this one's pretty easy, but like it's the front, right? It's the only obvious. It's like the only obviously good unit on this team where it's like, OK, you drafted Abdul Carter, who not just like picking him was exciting, but he's looked insane in the preseason. Brian Burns, we know to be a good player. Cave on Thibodeau is fine. But if he's moving down the totem pole, I think that helps a lot. And then Dexter Lawrence is like the only defensive tackle left or nose tackle in the league who could ever win defensive player of the year.

1:56:05So if that front is as good as we think it can be, and even some of the depth pieces look nice, then like, that's what you want to tune in to the giants for every week.

1:56:14Robert Mays: Yeah. To me, Dave, that's the easy answer. Like this group has a chance to be hellacious in the best case scenario. I'm very excited about, and I think the came on to a point is a perfect one. If he's your third edge rusher and now he's the third piece, you can get all three of those guys in the field at the same time with Dexter Lawrence. I do think that can be a driving force of this defense. Even if we have some questions about some of the other pieces to me, that's the obvious answer. I'm going with something that I do feel like this has been a talking point for Giants fans all offseason, and I am buying it a little bit.

1:56:45Robert Mays: This idea that even if Russell Wilson is an imperfect quarterback and he does end up becoming the quarterback for this team, at least he's willing to chuck it down the field in a way that Daniel Jones was not. If you look at it last year, the Giants threw 20 plus air yard throws, 9.6 % of dropbacks, which was the 27th highest rate in the league. the Steelers were seventh in the NFL, and that includes the Justin Fields part of the Steelers season. So if Russ can do nothing else, it can be bombs away. And I am excited to see what Malik neighbors and Darius Slayton could look like in an offense that includes a lot more aggressiveness than the version that we got last year with Daniel Jones.

1:57:23I also think even though I think efficiency wise, the hit rate for the deep balls last year for Russ and really the past handful of years has not been that great. That's also been in part because he's been playing more with like George Pickens is not a run away from guys player. He is a go up and contested catch player. Cortland Sutton in Denver was kind of a lot of that player. Malik neighbors and Darius Slayton, they're kind of more fit to the moon ball. Just give him like two yards of space to put it over the DB and run under it. That could get a little bit more of the good Russell Wilson back.

1:57:53You know, I don't know if that's enough to really mean anything, but it at least does like personnel wise fit him a little bit better. neighbors did what he did with Daniel Jones, drew lock and Tommy DeVito throwing the ball. And I feel like people don't say that enough. And even if Russ doesn't play a lot for some reason, like if it has to be Jameis Winston or Jackson dart, like it's such a clear upgrade all through the quarterback room. I mean, the sky's the limit for what I think Malik neighbors is capable of.

1:58:21Robert Mays: What are these swing points of the 2025 giant season? the areas where this year can pivot for the giants. Dave, why don't you kick it off? I think it's only fair that I kick it off because I fell for the banana in the tailpipe last year, where I was like, this pass rush is so cool. Brian Burns, Dexter Lawrence, Kayvon Thibodeau, surely the rest of it doesn't even matter. And guess what? It mattered. So I just want to see better play from the backend of the New York secondary. Like it, It doesn't have to be an elite unit, but it was bottom five in the league last year. Like they did not get like they did not get interceptions.

1:59:03They had five on the year. Fifth worst in pass EPA allowed in the league. They were fourth worst in yards per attempt. They allowed the third highest opposing quarterback rating. Pick the stat. They were awful at it. And even a great pass rush can only do so much. Credit to them. They they are trying. Right. Like I know a lot of people aren't super high on Paulson Adebo as like this shutdown corner. I would argue I don't need him to be. I just need him to raise the floor of that unit. And it's not like they put him at the top of the market, you know, like in all the numbers, his contract, 54 million total.

1:59:42It's, it's like top 10 ish, which is an overpay. Cause that's the nature of free agency. But I don't need this guy to be all pro level for this contract to be worth it. And you can say something similar about Javon Holland. So those two, if they can at least raise the floor of this thing and let the pass rush matter, I think it could make the defense obviously much better and make this a much more serious team as a result. Derek, I see you kind of like I was going to say I'll be shaking over there in your chair, saying more about Javon Holland later. I think a little bit more highly of him, I think.

2:00:16And I'm pretty excited about that.

2:00:18Robert Mays: I'm excited about Javon Holland. The corner spots, I think, are worth having some questions about. They gave Paul Sanadibo a lot of money. That quarterback market this offseason was fascinating, and we've talked about it a bunch of different times. We had like five or six guys sign the same contract, and Byron Murphy was the only other second contract player, and not even really a second contract, but a younger-ish player to sign that sort of deal. So Byron Murphy, and it was Byron Murphy, Carlton Davis, Charverius Ward, they all signed the same deal. All of those guys are better players than Paul Sanadibo, but they're aging players.

2:00:50Robert Mays: They're third contract guys. And so Paulson Debo as a second contract player gets paid at the same rate, but this idea, and this is kind of my concern about Paulson Debo, Derek, and I, we've talked about this. I think this is one of those contracts you hand out and it's like, Oh, we solved this. And then that's not the case at all. And we just know that cornerback play is very volatile. And I think that he is in that group of corners where you might have to expect some volatility. I don't think it's necessarily solved because they signed Paulson Adebo in free agency. Cornerback contracts in free agency are a crapshoot.

2:01:21Robert Mays: They do not always work out. And in the worst case scenario, that's kind of what I'm looking at here. He absolutely could be a serviceable corner that like Dave is saying, all we have to do is raise the floor on one side of the defense. Devon Holland has to be the guy that we want him to be. We feel good about Drew Phillips. We feel good about Tyler Nubin. The pass rush is disgusting. And this becomes one of the best 12 defenses in the league. But I do think that there is some volatility with those corner spots, not only with the Debo, but then the other outside corner spot, like Deontay Banks has been a huge concern as a first round pick.

2:01:55Robert Mays: And so if a Debo is volatile and then you can't rely on the other outside corner spot, that's where I think you can start to poke holes in what the ceiling of this defense looks like overall, even when you take into account how good the pass rush should be. Yeah, they're betting on the pass rush and then the inside part of the secondary with the nickel and the two safety spots, like having this cascading effect on the rest of the guys. But, you know, Paulson Adebo, we'll see. I think he probably won't be bad for them. But the cornerback two spot is very, very treacherous territory, I think. What is your swing point for the 2025 Giants, Derek?

2:02:31The quarterback, it kind of has to be. And we talked about it. We've talked about it a little bit and hinted at it. And like, again, I think with the receivers that they have, there's some chance that the Russell Wilson deep ball roulette works out a little bit better for them. But even if it does, I think the other parts of Russell Wilson's game at this point are a little bit dubious. So I think it ultimately comes down to, like, do we see Jackson Dart and what does Jackson Dart look like when he plays? And I know that he's put up insane preseason numbers, and I don't want to say that he's been like secretly bad in the preseason.

2:03:00But it's kind of just a lot of RPOs, go balls and like screens like he's not he's made like one real throw a game, which is to be expected, given the offense that he was coming from at Ole Miss. And I think us knowing that he was going to be a little bit of a project. So I think the swing point is basically like, do they feel like they can play him in week five or they are holding out until week 14 and hoping they have enough wins to keep him on the bench?

2:03:23Robert Mays: My curiosity with this, and I think when they decide to go to Jackson Dart, maybe an expression of this, what type of limited do the Giants want? Is it the limited that Russell Wilson gives you? Or is it the limited that Jackson Dart gives you? Because Jackson Dart has obviously looked great in the preseason. He's looked great running the Ole Miss Jackson Dart offense. And I am open to the idea that that pairing with him and Brian Dable doing that sort of stuff can work. Because when you think about Brian Dable's history, not only do I think he's trying to find his Josh Allen from like a vibes perspective, And I do think the little bromance happening between Jackson Dart and Brian D 'Abel is partially that.

2:04:05Robert Mays: Like Jackson Dart as a dude was very well regarded in the process. And I think they're bought into him as a person, the way he carries himself, all of that. But Brian D 'Abel is somebody going back to his time with Josh Allen. They used a ton of college stuff, whether that was the things that Cole Beasley was bringing, all the RPOs that they were using. Brian D 'Abel has always been very interested in the college game and curious about it. And so he's well-suited to tailor an offense around Jackson Dart strengths. You're going to run into some limitations. You can't just play that way in the NFL.

2:04:34Robert Mays: Eventually it's going to be third and seven and you're going to have to make something happen. But Russell Wilson is also a limited player. Russell Wilson also is taking things off the table because he is your quarterback. So what version of limited they want, that to me is the question that they're going to have to answer as they go through this season and they run into walls with either one of those quarterbacks. to me it's like what kind of mistakes are you okay with living with because like we know what mistakes russell wilson is going to make he's going to take a lot of sacks every now and then he might you know turn down some stuff over the middle of the field with jackson dart there are definitely like schematic limitations to these two players that again are very different so you kind of have to commit to one i think as soon as possible but to me with the mistakes with dart you just don't know like as a rookie i mean i can say that like coming in i was like oh you know his pocket presence and coming from the offense that he came from, the timing is probably going to be up and down, but you still don't know what the mistakes are going to look like until he makes them.

2:05:28Whereas with Russell Wilson, like you kind of know what that music sheet looks like already. And that's why I kind of think Russell Wilson's going to have a long leash because the limited they want is the limited that keeps them in a job. And you can like win games and maybe not look pretty, but win games with Russell Wilson being limited the way that he is. I just don't know if that's true.

2:05:51Robert Mays: I guess that's my question here is that, is that actually the version of limited that you want, which is ironic because it wasn't Russell Wilson's whole thing being Mr. Unlimited. He is not unlimited as a quarterback. He is very limited at this stage. Well, okay. Not to get into like this big existential thing about the nature of quarterback development, but that's why it's such a shitty spot to be, to have a first round quarterback that you want to develop with a regime that we think at least needs to win to keep their jobs. Cause like ideally, like I'd way rather throw Jackson dart out there if he's ready and just see what he can do and develop him and see what the ceiling looks like.

2:06:30But I assume Brian Dable can't really afford to do that if he wants to keep his job. And so I get your point. And like, I don't think that many people, I don't think there's anybody left that's like excited to watch Russell Wilson in 2025. But if it's keeping you in games and giving you a chance to be in the conversation, I think that's ultimately what a coach and GM on the hot seat would opt for, at least until Russ proves that that is not a viable strategy anymore, which could happen. The the one thing I will give in point of Jackson Dart, and I think in terms of like the production, it could still be very up and down for him.

2:07:07And I think he has a lot to learn. One, like you mentioned, Robert, he seemed to be very well regarded as a guy, which I think will help you live through some of these ups and downs that you're going to have as a rookie. And then the other thing is like, if you're going to be in a rookie, that's in a tough situation like this, if you can at least live with getting the shit kicked out of you, the way that I think Jackson Dart has already shown both in college and in the NFL, like I think those are ways that you can start to live with some of the ups and downs that you might otherwise get with a rookie.

2:07:33Robert Mays: I'm going to admit that I just don't really have a good feel for how I think this will go and how I think this should go in the best case scenario for the Giants, right? Like the best thing here is that Russell Wilson is a much higher floor quarterback than Jackson Dart. Your offense is capable with Russell Wilson, Brian Dable, and Mike Kafka. You have a great defense. You don't have to do a ton on offense. If you are a slightly below average offense with Russell Wilson, you have one of the best six or seven defenses in the league. You can get to like the, a playoff berth right on the verge of that.

2:08:08Robert Mays: And these guys can keep their jobs. And then, you know, we get a, well, now we'll unleash Jackson dart next off season. Think about what he looked like in the preseason. We're so excited about him. Like we deserve to see this through that to me is probably the best case scenario in a vacuum. Dave, I just don't know how realistic that is because I do think that the defense has a high ceiling, but we have not seen them do it. We just talked about some of the questions we have about the secondary and I have real questions about the offense's ability to be anything decent with Russell Wilson and everything else that's going on here.

2:08:40Robert Mays: My swing point was the offensive line. Like, I just don't know what the offensive line is going to be, especially with Andrew Thomas still out. If Andrew Thomas is back and healthy, this has a chance to be a passable offensive line. But when you're shooting for the middle, you can always be worse than that. And I do think the right side specifically, you have stopgap guys in Greg Van Roten and Jermaine Illuminor. And so if we have a below average offensive line, Malik neighbors were very excited about. But other than that, like it's Darius Slade's a complimentary playoff. Theo Jackson's still a very young player.

2:09:13Robert Mays: It's Tyrone Chasey and Cam Scadabo. And then Russell Wilson is the floor on that high enough where you can just ride out the season with that group and win enough games to do it. I just don't think that's possible. Maybe I'm too pessimistic here, but I've never bought that viewpoint of all of this. Oh, I don't really think it's possible either. I just lean toward a football coach's natural inclination to dance with the devil that he knows as opposed to put his hopes and dreams on a rookie who's never done this before. But I think I think he wants to play Jackson Dart. I don't think he knows Russell Wilson, though.

2:09:47You know, that's kind of what I mean.

2:09:48Robert Mays: I when you see the way the offense looks and when you see the way he talks about Jackson Dart, maybe I'm reading into this too much. And this is too much of me trying to manifest something I find much more interesting than watching 17 games of Russell Wilson. But I don't know. I'm just picking up on little signs that I just it feels like it's pointing to Jackson Dart being the more compelling choice here, not just for a football watcher, but for Brian Dable. This is exactly why I would have either fired this regime last year or at the very least. And maybe maybe John Mara did behind the scenes.

2:10:22But at the very least, I would have given them a real vote of confidence. Like, hey, if you like Dart, draft him. I'm not going to fire you if you start. Oh, and six this year. and that like so I would be so much more excited about the Giants if I was confident that the regime was going to be in place beyond 2025 just from the standpoint of like continuity and and maintaining a vision so I'm with you Robert I just when push comes to shove I think desperate

2:10:51Robert Mays: regimes do desperate potentially stupid things let's dig into this because mine what's keeping me up at night is this exact thought. And I know this is the pessimistic outlook on it. And I want to make clear, I'm going to make this very clear. I didn't just forget what Brian Dable did with Daniel Jones a couple of years ago. It's been long enough now where I think the shine has come off of it. And I've become just a little bit more skeptical of this regime. And I just, I'm not sure these are the right guys in New York. I have my questions about that. But the idea of Brian Dable being able to create something compelling and interesting and dynamic around Jackson Dart, Again, based on his history and some of the things we've seen him do, I am open to that idea.

2:11:31Robert Mays: So I don't think that's off the table. But what's keeping me up at night is that if these aren't the right guys, if we have enough evidence out there that they struggle to put together a really good offense and it wasn't just the Daniel Jones problem, are they doing the same thing I've watched the Bears do over and over and over again? where you've allowed a regime that's a lame duck group to do things that stretch your future and put you in a tough spot moving forward in order to save themselves or at least wave a hand at the idea of, well, look at the future that we're building for ourselves.

2:12:06Robert Mays: We drafted a quarterback in the first round. So many first round quarterbacks, when you look at the history of it, come right before regimes get fired because they're often done out of desperation. And I do think them deciding that they were going to go for Jackson Dart this year is a, it's a Hail Mary, right? It's a last gasp for this group. And they didn't give up that much to get him. And I think they deserve, they should be commended for that. Like only giving up two thirds in order to do it is a much smaller price than other teams have paid, but you still gave up multiple picks and used a first round pick on a quarterback.

2:12:36Robert Mays: You still spent a ton of money in free agency this year in order to shore up some holes to get decent right away. And if these aren't the right guys and you've done all that for naught. And now you're going to be hiring a new coaching staff in front office next year who didn't pick Jackson Dart and now has far fewer resources to work with because of what you allowed this front office to do. What does that mean for the next group? And I know that is the sky is falling viewpoint here, but I've seen this movie a bunch of times and I just am worried about it ending the same way. That's a perfectly valid discussion.

2:13:09They won like four games last year and they didn't do it. There's five and a half. they're not going to be yes for a team that had like when their best season was like a okay we got we dragged daniel jones into the playoffs barely and then won a very bizarre game against a funny vikings team when that is your peak but then we've seen the lows be this where you are winning like three four games and being truly one of the worst teams in the league like that to me scares me and that is not necessarily a regime i would have given another chance the dable versus Shane part of it, like in terms of the blame pie, I do think is interesting.

2:13:45Like, I think there's a chance that Dable is still a very good play caller and could either with the Giants or down the line, if he gets another chance, like still prove to be one of those guys who can make a good offense. The letting Shane pick a quarterback part of it, I think is a little bit more dubious to me, but I guess at this point, they've just kind of been stuck writing it out with these two together and you might as well keep them tied instead of ending up in the different bear spot where you end up with the GM and the head coach, like constantly out of order.

2:14:11Robert Mays: The thing is, Brian Dable might not be the play car. I think Mike Kafka is calling plays again for this team this year. And that's one of the other problems with this is that the playbook they've kind of followed here. I've watched this playbook so many times, the snip snap of who's calling plays, firing coordinators, having these battles with coordinators. So many of the personality things, the stretching yourself for a first round quarterback. And the other part of this, if we're trying to lay some blame at Joe Shane's feet here, that I think is a consistent theme. And it reminds me of one of the problems I've had with the Ryan Poles regime in Chicago.

2:14:44Robert Mays: Not being able to properly scout your own talent, to me, is the marker of a troubled regime. And the fact that they let Xavier McKinney walk in free agency only to have to pay Javon Holland the next year because they let Xavier McKinney walk in free agency. There are just enough alarm bells here where I am concerned about how this is all going to end up and what it means for the multi-year plan for the Giants. I know that is the most skeptical possible outlook, Dave, but it's just hard for me not to go there. I do think, you know, some of your scar tissue might be a part of that, but like it it's it's there, man.

2:15:20Like it makes sense and we can get into it. There's a version of this Giants team that I think could be pretty feisty, but it's way easier to imagine the version that goes the way you're describing. I don't I don't think that's unfair.

2:15:36Robert Mays: what are you watching Derek in the first month of the season as we try to put together that feisty version of the Giants uh assuming we aren't getting Jackson Dart in the first month of the season and assuming the pass rush is like as good as we think it is the part of it that I'm really curious to see is like how good is Javon Holland because I really think at his peak he was like about to become what felt like you know one of those like knocking on the door of all pro type safety. And then he gets banged up a little bit. And last year was kind of the year after year for him. So he wasn't fully healthy.

2:16:09There's been a lot of weird stuff in terms of like the volatility and the vibes around the Miami defense the last couple of years anyway. So it just felt like a weird spot for him to be in. He is such a good, like versatile move around ball hawking type of safety at his best, putting that behind what is like a horrifyingly scary pass rush. There's just a chance that he gets his hand on the ball a lot this year. And I'm very excited to see if like right out of the gate. He looks like that guy again.

2:16:35Robert Mays: I'll extend this to the whole defense. What does the whole defense look immediately? Because if we're building that feisty giants team, Dave, that can like sneak into a wild card, it has to start with one of the best defenses in the league. And I think we feel good about what the pass rush can be, but the linebacker group falling into place, the interior pieces, you know, maybe being a little bit better than we thought the run defense being a little bit better than it's been over the last couple of years and the secondary coming together. Like I want to see it and maybe it takes a few games by mid season.

2:17:05Robert Mays: What does this defense look like to me is the biggest question outside of who's playing quarterback. And what does that mean is what is the ceiling for this group period? Yeah, it's a name we haven't said that I'm interested to see what he does for an encore, which is Shane Bowen. And, you know, we had, well, again, like we had expectations for, for what the pass rush would look like and how it would affect the Giants defense last year. And it just did not work the way that anybody would prefer. And this is talent wise, not an not like an elite unit, certainly the pass rush, but like across the defense.

2:17:40I wouldn't say you have elite talent, but you've got to you've got to cobble together better results on the back end. And that's I'll say it one more time. If this defense was, I don't know, like 18th to 20th in the league this year across the board and like that's how the secondary performed and you're getting the results you want from the pass rush that would be a really encouraging place i think like that's a pretty encouraging step in my opinion other than the fact that there's the potential for starting all over with a new scheme next year if if they clean house if it goes poorly i think that's your

2:18:14Robert Mays: what you're watching over the first month of the season derek is essentially can this team stay relevant for long enough for us to be interested in what they turn into over the course of the year so that's actually what i was going to say to you like 18th to 20th would be a huge improvement for them they were one of the worst defenses in the league last year i also think that would not be good enough for them to not be all fired by like week nine like i because i just don't think the offense is going to be good enough for that i think that's right for the 18th best defense to really be upholding you like it has to be i would say like the 10th best defense for them to get enough runway for the offense to be like okay we can squeak by into some of these games And so that to me is like, I think the defense has to be like the offense.

2:18:54I'll give some grace. I know they're going to try to see what they can do with Jackson Dart and some of the other young players. But the defense to me has to be like, you have enough veterans here. You've paid enough money for this to be good. It better be pretty good. Check this out, guys. And Robert, you and I have joked about this. Like I was I was a lot more bullish on the Giants in like April. Like I could see the vision. I was like, yeah, they got somebody who can get neighbors the ball and the defense looks Looks nice. They're going to draft Abdul Carter. And then the schedule came out and I just sort of threw that take out the window because this is this is the start for the New York Giants.

2:19:30It's at commanders at Cowboys Chiefs Chargers. They do get the Saints after that. But then as soon as that Saints game is over, it's both Eagles games and a road game in Denver against the Broncos like you. surely I'm not trying to suggest they won't win a single one of those games, but find the wins for me, man. And then that made me curious because I'm just thinking about what I know about the New York Giants over the last decade since 2016, which is when I would argue was the last time they were like a legitimately good team. They're seven and 20 in September. And over that time span 2022 is the only year where they've been within three games of 500 they've been three games below 500 or worse at their buy in eight of the last nine years like with the very lone exception of 2022 they've just been an afterthought by the time the calendar turns to like mid-october like they have not even been able to trade wins and losses like they have very much gotten out to bad starts.

2:20:38And in late September of most years, we're talking about hot seats and quarterback changes and like all the negative press that goes along with a slow start. I need them to do. I need them to be trading wins and losses like that. That is what I need them to be doing. And I just I don't see it with what the schedule gods have decreed that they get this year. Like it looks very tough. Is this like the vibes are permanently bad in New York until proven otherwise situation?

2:21:06Robert Mays: So that's exactly where I land with this. And I know that's terrible analysis. And I want to listen. Sometimes we got to lean into the vibes, man. There's nothing wrong with that. I want to listen to fan bases when they're trying to tell you things about the roster. And I do think that there is a contingent of Giants fans that's looking at the defense, looking at the pass rush, seeing the best case scenario there, and looking at not Daniel Jones at quarterback and saying, there is a path for us here. And I want to be open to that. I just can't get there. and maybe I'm just spectacularly wrong about the Giants.

2:21:38Robert Mays: Maybe the Giants are one of the best defenses in the league. Maybe they are a wildcard team, but I do think what's hanging over them when it comes to those vibes, Derek, I just can't ignore it. And I know that's not the most high level analysis of an NFL team coming into a season, but I just can't get away from that right now. And I wish that I could. I wish I could just eject it from my brain and I just can't do it. It's hard not to. And like the Bears are the perfect example. Like the bears were a top 10 defense last year, early in the year until all of the vibes truly came crashing down because all of this, pretty much all the same factors that we're seeing with the giants here.

2:22:14Robert Mays: So with that in mind, Dave, what in your mind is a successful season for the New York giants? There's two options here. They forge the hard road and do what we all just said. We don't think they can do. And they, I don't even think they need to make the playoffs, but like six to eight wins and looking competitive and like looking like a team on the rise. I think that could be a successful season or Jackson Dart just looks awesome in a lost year. Like I'm thinking if Jackson Dart were to look like Drake May in a year that got everybody fired. Hey, Derek, just listen. I didn't say that I thought it would happen.

2:22:56I just said, if it did happen, if Jackson Dart, if Jackson Dart looks like the type of quarterback that you can build around, like a quarterback worth building around.

2:23:07Robert Mays: That's exactly what I was going to say. If he looks like a quarterback worth building around. And I think we have to be open to that idea. You got to at least consider it possible. I'll at least say he's looked better. Like the preseason has looked more competent than I thought it was going to. So I'm at least open to that. They've done a great job of setting him up for success. Yes. They've done a great job of tailoring it correctly for him. And if that's the case, Dave, I agree with you that that's the answer for the best case scenario for the health of the New York Giants. That's not the best case scenario or the best answer for what is the successful season for Brian Dable and Joe Shane.

2:23:40Robert Mays: Because if you win seven games, even if Jackson Dart is showing you something, I still think it's really hard to keep your jobs in this moment. If they go six and 11, how well does Jackson Dart need to play for this group to be back? my counterpoint is who who gives a shit about that other than and I don't want to make too much light of it because like those guys have to like relocate their families I get all of that but like if you're a Giants fan and Drake May looks like the prince who was promised but the coaches all get fired who gives a shit we're gonna get Drake May I'm getting a little like listen I'm if Jackson Dart plays that way then it doesn't like that's an afterthought and like Like, that's the cost of doing business in the NFL.

2:24:22But in this world, and I don't want to offend Derek's sensibilities here, in this world where Jackson Dart looks like the future of the New York Giants, people will line up to take this job and the pass rush will still be there. You'll have the quarterback like this will be a desirable job for a legacy franchise in a big market. They could go after next year's Ben Johnson and probably get him. So I'm sorry to Brian Dable and Joe Shane, but like, that's the cost of doing business. Like, I don't think anybody other than them is really going to care if Jackson Dart hits and they suck.

2:24:58Robert Mays: I like this a lot, actually, because I think I was too stuck in what is a successful season for like this regime and what they need. That probably shouldn't matter. And I think the Patriots are a good comparison here where it's like they have a new coach. It didn't matter. Like Jake May looked good enough last year for you to be excited about this moving forward. and the best case scenario for me, Derek, is the Giants defense what we thought the Patriots defense might be last year, right? That to me is actually when you combine the two, like they realize the promise of a defense in a way the Patriots did not because they were hurt and a bunch of things started, you know, piling on top of one another.

2:25:34Robert Mays: But if the defense shows this is a pass rush that can be really good over the next two to three years, the free agents hit, this defense is good, Jackson Dart is something. You combine those two. If you're a Giants fan, it probably doesn't matter to you who the coach is next year. That's enough for you to feel good about how this season went. I think that's right. Success for them is being like a seven win version of last year's Broncos. Like that's that is what success probably looks like for them with a quarterback. It's like, OK, we can do something with this. And then the defense proves it's like, OK, we've got a really good pass rush and something to build on.

2:26:06Obviously, that's a little bit different because Sean Payton had already been there. And in this case, seven wins probably gets Brian Dable fired. But then you can go out and hire whoever you think your Sean Payton is going to be. I swear I'm I'm really not trying to convince anybody that Jackson Dart will be Drake May. But I just want to point out, too. I just want to point out Drake May wasn't even the week one starter in New England. Like they had to go through all this rigmarole as well. So even if Jackson Dart doesn't get on the field until the second half of the season, if he's good, that's more than enough, I think, for Giants fans.

2:26:40but if he's on the field to the second half of the season is this regime here to the till the

2:26:44Robert Mays: end of the season like no just so i and this isn't even me taking like a dour outlook here it's just the team where i just don't know how this is going to go i don't know how the different competing motivations and timelines and views of the coaching staff ownership all of this is going to play out i'll i've said this a couple times this offseason and i'll say it explicitly here It's just one of the harder teams to meet for me to figure out because I understand the best case scenario, but it's just really hard for me not to pay attention to the worst case scenario and where they land between those.

2:27:16Robert Mays: I just don't have a good sense of that. That's just the long and the short of it. All right. That is it for the NFC East, a two hour and like 20 minute first division preview. The first one is always the longest. I did not expect it to be this long. It's the first time we've done this with three people. So it's a couple different elements that are leading to this being just astronomically long. The rest of these will be shorter. I'm very much looking forward to them. We will be back with the AFC East tomorrow. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

2:28:16We'll see you next time. on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to Discover. Terms apply. See discover.com slash five for details. Listen to this A-Cast show ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.