2025 NFC West preview

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0:57Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. It's the NFC West preview today. Really interesting division. A lot of really good teams. I mean, every single one of these teams, I think make an argument about making the playoffs, me potentially even winning the division. We talked about that at the top of the show and just how high the relevant relative expectations are for the NFC West compared to nearly every other division in the NFL. Really enjoyed that conversation with Derek Lassen and Dave Hellman. Let's get to it right now.

1:31Robert Mays: Rounding toward the home stretch here. Two more division previews left on the athletic football show. We will finish things off with the AFC North tomorrow. Today, it is the NFC West. Derek, we talked about this a little bit earlier today when you, me, and Dave were kind of kicking around just general thoughts about this division expectations. Every team in this division has an over under preseason over under of at least eight and a half, which makes the expectations for this division collectively. As we were talking about what success feels like, every team is like, you better make the playoffs based on how you're coming into the season.

2:05Robert Mays: You better make the playoffs. And the only division where I think that's the same deal where all four teams have that kind of discourse around them heading into the year is probably the NFC North. And so I think that's why there is a ton of intrigue about what the NFC West ultimately looks like in 2025.

2:20Dave Helman: Yeah, this to me was like by far the most difficult division to nail down all of the like what is success that we're going to talk about at the end for all of these teams, because at least with like the NFC North, that is also a pretty loaded division. But the timelines and the expectations, even if all those teams are good, felt a little clearer to me, like with the Bears, it's like, OK, just fix Caleb and you're probably fine. Vikings, it's like if JJ is good, you're probably fine. And with the entire NFC West, it feels like everything is a little bit more jumbled and complicated than that.

2:48Robert Mays: Dave, I'm going to say something. I'm curious if you agree with this. I think the NFC West is the most open when it comes to how many different finishes we could possibly see. I think the NFC North is extremely competitive. It's hard for me to imagine a world where the Lions finished in last place in the NFC North and the Bears finished in first place. in the NFC West, it's much easier for me to imagine like virtually every single permutation of how all four of these teams finished. Do you think that's crazy?

3:20Derrik Klassen: No, I, you took the words right out of my mouth and that's why this division is such a shot in the arm. Not to say any of the other divisions are boring, but I think there's a more established hierarchy and even for, especially for the NFC North, you know, like you can picture some version of the way that it goes. Like we're reasonably confident the Lions and the Packers are going to be good teams. The NFC West is just a demolition derby, man. Like you could put all four teams in any order you want. And maybe it's a little harder for me to see for certain teams than others, but you can paint that picture.

3:56Derrik Klassen: You can, we know the 49ers can finish fourth. They just did it. We know how South, we know how South things can go for the LA Rams with, if they have the wrong injury issues. Their quarterback is an injury issue right now. The Cardinals and the Seahawks, there's a lot of variance there. I was going to say it maybe, maybe it would be hard for me to imagine one of those teams, maybe outright running away with the division, but everything else feels like it's on the table. And that's why I think this is the most compelling division in football this year, just in terms of uncertainty and, and intrigue.

4:31Robert Mays: Yeah. I think the furthest, like the most remote possibility to me is that the Cardinals winning the division and the Niners finishing in last. Like there are certain ones that are harder to picture, but I do think that there are a lot of different ways that this can go. And that's why I'm excited to dig into this. Like you mentioned, we're going to go in the same order. We've gone all the divisions. We're going to go in the order they finished last season, which means the Niners are last. The fact that the Niners are getting the same treatment as like the Saints and the Raiders in this exercise is very funny, but we don't make the rules.

4:59Robert Mays: That's how we've done every single one of these. So let's start with the Los Angeles Rams, our preview for the 2025 Rams. For each team, we're going to kick things off with their offseason in 60 seconds. Signed Devonta Adams, two years, 44 million. Retained left tackle, Eric Jackson, three years, 56 million. Signed to Puna Ford in free agency, three years, 27 million. Extended Kyron Williams, three years, 33 million with 23 guaranteed. Brought back Tutu Atwell, one year, 10 million. Coleman Shelton, two years, 12 million,$9 million guaranteed. Reworked Matthew Stafford's contract, small deals for DJ Humphries and David Cuisenberry.

5:29Robert Mays: Notable draft picks, they traded out of the first round and got a future first in a deal with Atlanta. They picked Terrence Ferguson in the second round, Ed's Josiah Stewart in the third round, running back Jarquess Hunter in the fourth round. Lost Cooper Cup, Bobby Brown in free agency, along with Michael Hoyt and Demarcus Robinson, traded Jonah Jackson to the Bears. For each of these teams, we're going to kick things off with what we are excited to watch in 2025. We had the same answer for this, all three of us, and we were talking about it earlier today. Derek what are you excited to watch for the 2025 Los Angeles Rams I mean this is aggressive framing

6:05Dave Helman: but the last time this team had an X receiver like this they won the Super Bowl so I you know again it's hard to pick any team and put them in but like the last time we saw it like this that is what they were able to accomplish and I think that's there's a couple of reasons that I'm excited for that one I'm still not like entirely sold on the run game so the fact that like Devontae Adams can come in and they can maybe get back to some of that 2021 maybe being a little bit more gun and empty team I think that's really exciting Devontae Adams is also like extremely not washed like he's still a very good player obviously the last couple of years in terms of like some of his overall raw production and the way that we talk about him compared to like Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson has waned a little bit but like he's still incredible like so ESPN has their open score which is like not perfect as as no metric is but there were only eight players last year who had above a 75 open score and at least 100 targets.

6:57Dave Helman: And it was all the guys like CeeDee Lamb and like Mike Evans, the A.J. Brown, like the superstar receivers, and he's still one of them. So giving that guy to Matthew Stafford next to Puka Nakua, I'm pretty hyped for what that's going to be.

7:09Robert Mays: If you look at the numbers last year, just X receiver snaps. So isolated on the line of scrimmage snaps among all receivers in the NFL. 28 guys had 50 of those routes. Demarcus Robinson finished second to last among those 28 players in target share. He was targeted on six and a half percent of his isolated X receiver routes last year. There was only one other guy below 14 percent. There has never been a more sacrificial X receiver in an offense than what Demarcus Robinson was for the Rams last year. So having a real threat there rather than just saying we're going to stick somebody there and then work all this three man front side stuff that we like to do.

7:49Robert Mays: it changes the dynamics of the offense now if you're going to tilt coverage to the front side you're going to have a backside guy that's a hall of fame player still playing at a decently high level and Dave when I was talking to people there during training camp I think the thought was now we have somebody that brings a skill set we have not had in the receiving core for the last couple years and we still think he's going to be able to do some of these space oriented option route stuff that Cooper cup was able to do. And so with the fact that you have two receivers now and Puka and Devante Adams that you don't necessarily have to manufacture separation for, I think it really does change the calculus for how teams can look at game plan for this Rams offense.

8:33Derrik Klassen: I think it could just be the purest, most fun form of this team. You know? Yeah. Like it's, it's so fun to think of Sean McVay and he still will, obviously he's good at his job, but it's so fun to think of him not needing to scheme stuff like just having dogs that can go up and win and just be the better player. That hasn't always been the case, which is a testament to the Rams scheme, but matching good scheme with amazing players can be really, really fun. Their division rivals up in San Francisco know all about that. So yeah, it's, it's simplistic to say Matthew Stafford throwing the ball to Devante Adams is really fun, but it's one of the most fun things about this coming season.

9:17Derrik Klassen: I think I was thinking about this, you know, Matthew Stafford's been in the league forever. Devante Adams has two by receiver standards, a whole generation of players. Like when you ask them like, Oh, who do you model your game after? Who do you love? These are the guys like every receiver in the league is like, I looked up to Devante Adams and every quarterback in the league is like, I know he doesn't have as many accolades as some other guys, but Matthew Stafford is that dude. Like you hear that stuff all the time. So to see them play together, you know, I'm, I'm knocking on all the wood that they get to.

9:48Derrik Klassen: Hopefully they're obviously both a little bit older. Hopefully we get to see 17 games of that type of connection.

9:54Robert Mays: I love you bringing this up because the Cooper cup leaving this situation, you're going to lose what Cooper cup was as a player, but you also lose what Cooper cup is, as like a football mind. It's actually fun talking to people in Seattle about this, just like how Cooper Cup goes about the intellectual parts of the sport. It would be really, really hard to find someone who is on or approaching that level. They found one of those guys, like Devontae Adams is one of the most football smart people who has ever walked the planet. And I think they've really enjoyed having somebody with that level of input and insight and awareness into what the offense has been and some of the tweaks that he's even brought to it.

10:31Robert Mays: It's actually funny. Like I heard a story during training camp where with this offense, we know there's a lot of cut splits to it. Right, Derek? These are condensed formations. Well, Devontae Adams is like a true X receiver. And so there have been some moments in practice where like he just inches out a little bit further than like the actual playbook says he's supposed to. And so then they're kind of like, you know what, we're just going to let him do that. And so watching him kind of put his own little spin on some of the things that they like doing within this offense. And the fact that Sean McVay once again has one of these players who's going to come to him with little wrinkles on some of the stuff they should be doing based on what he's seeing.

11:06Robert Mays: That would be really hard to replicate when Cooper Cup leaves your building. I think they kind of did it by bringing in Devontae Adams.

11:13Dave Helman: That's honestly really funny to hear. Just imagining in the playbook, it says, yeah, you need to stand between the hash and the numbers. And Devante is like, I'm going to take another step towards the numbers and give myself a little bit of space here.

11:23Robert Mays: That's the whole point of having players that change the calculus for you is you allow them to do some things that maybe you wouldn't allow everybody to do.

11:32Derrik Klassen: It's very funny to think that. And you like we know the tropes of preseason storylines. You see a different version of the same thing every year. the Rams parted ways with an all-time great receiver in their organization, a triple crown winner, Superbowl MVP, and nobody in the world is like, how are they going to replace Cooper cup? Like that's not a thing that anybody's talking about.

11:57Robert Mays: The other part of this, before we move on, just talking about the receiving core in Los Angeles, it's very easy to get excited about what Devante Adams is going to do for this offense. It's easy to forget that when he was back on the field last year, Pukunakua led the NFL in every single advanced wide receiver metric. He was number one in the league in yards per route run. He was number one in the league in first downs per route run. Like he was unbelievably productive. And now he's almost like an afterthought because they brought in Devante Adams. So it's not just Devante Adams. It's the fact that they already had a guy on a rate basis who was doing things with his targets that no receiver in the league was doing.

12:38Derrik Klassen: And they should fit so well together too, right? Like sometimes you're like, oh, are these players redundant? Do they do too much of the same thing? Puka and Devante should complement each other pretty perfectly, which makes it even more fun.

12:51Robert Mays: Yeah. Puka had a first down reception on 17 % of his routes last year. That is a bigger gap than Puka from AJ Brown to two to AJ Brown and Trey McBride in 10th. like that's how dominant Puka was with his with just everyone he was on the field last year how productive he was the one other one I would throw out just for like a little bit of variety here I'm very excited to watch the front of this team we're not talking about anyone else so I just wanted to toss that in there I think that the individual talent they have is fantastic obviously like what Jared verse was for this team last year but I also think in terms of pass rush plans I heard this from a lot of different defensive coaches over the month that I was traveling camps, just this idea of how can we make sure we're rushing together where there's a cohesive plan?

13:39Robert Mays: Guys are complimentary to one another when it comes to stunts, games, all of that. And when you watch the Rams, I think they're the best version of this because they have guys that fill very specific roles. Like what Kobe Turner is in some of those stunts and games, both as a penetrator, his ability to like change direction. And sometimes we look at hustle sacks and we consider them negatives. When you have a guy like Jared Verse who's penetrating and crushing the pocket and moving the spot for the quarterback all the time, having somebody who has a lot of bursts and is good at those kind of cleanup sacks and change of direction plays, it's not a negative.

14:16Robert Mays: Like that's actually a useful skill set when you consider the other guys. And Kobe Turner is very good at that. And so watching how this group plays collectively, I think, is a really good example of the best way this can go as other teams try to emulate that. And so watching what that can look like in year two, I am very, very excited about this.

14:35Dave Helman: Yeah, I think when you're like only a hustle sack guy, that's a problem. But when you're a hustle sack guy on top of also being explosive yourself, that's when it becomes like a real threat to opposing offenses. I think it also helps to like their collective ability to play together. Like these are all literally guys they drafted within the last two years. Like they've all learned this together. They learned the NFL together, say for obviously Puna Ford, who they brought in this year, who we will be talking about a little bit later.

15:00Robert Mays: So one note to keep in mind with the edge group and just how it's different than this year, because it's very easy to be like young guys wheels up. Let's do this. Losing Michael Hoyt, I think is a real thing to consider. They had three edge guys that they could really rely on last year. Now you're really kind of thrusting younger players into that role. Josiah Stewart, who they drafted in the third round. So just a little bit less depth on the edge is one area where this team is probably a little bit weaker in 2025. So just something to keep in mind. And Hoyt, for all of his limitations, maybe physically, his football smarts and how good he was at getting guys lined up and just kind of helping communicate.

15:35Robert Mays: And when you're doing all those games and stunts, you need people to kind of be at the center of that. And so losing him as part of that, I think, is just something to keep in mind. Buffalo is very excited to have that factor within their defense, and the Rams are losing it. Let's get to the swing points for the 2025 Rams, the areas where this season might pivot for L.A. Dave, what do you got for me?

15:56Derrik Klassen: we can follow it like a guidebook dating back through the post Super Bowl years with the Rams. It's the offensive line. They're going to go how their offensive line goes. Matthew Stafford is going to go with how well he's protected. And like I said, you can look back on it for examples of this because when it's bad, it's really, really bad. You guys remember the 2022 season Rams fans like cover your ears. You don't want to relive that. I went back and looked this up and obviously you're dealing with a lot of injuries. You're dealing with shuffling. The 2022 LA Rams allowed a sack on 14 % of their drop back attempts.

16:38Derrik Klassen: The league average was six and a half, like an unsustainable amounts of pressure. And needless to say, Matthew Stafford was done by Thanksgiving and the Rams were terrible. Like the most memorable thing about that Ram season was Baker Mayfield saving his career. And then over the last couple of years, you've seen it steadily progress. They cut that number down to 7.8 % in 2023, which was just barely over league average. Somehow, this is honestly amazing because you guys remember how much they were shuffling in the first month of last season. They cut that number down to three and a half percent in 2024.

17:14Derrik Klassen: The league average was 7%. And as soon as you affect the pressure numbers, Matthew Stafford is, is good. Again, Matthew Stafford is as great as his protection is going to allow him to be. It's so incredible the way the Rams stabilized their offensive line last year. You know, they, they had Jonah Jackson at the beginning of the year that obviously did not work out the way they intended. You're dealing with injuries to everybody from Rob Havenstein to Steve Avila missed seven games last year. Alaric Jackson missed time last year. And unfortunately I'm at least a little bit worried that that can carry over into 2025, at least where Alaric Jackson is concerned.

17:54Derrik Klassen: He is back on the practice field. It sounds like there's optimism. He's going to be available for the season opener, but when you're missing the vast majority of training camp as a veteran player, I think that is, that is definitely noteworthy. So if it's good, the Rams are going to be good. And if it's bad, the Rams are probably going to be really bad. I think it's basically that simple.

18:15Robert Mays: It really has been over the last couple of years, which is kind of crazy. But you look at the stats, and I think this is probably directionally true for most teams in the NFL. Their offensive line is bad. They will be bad. But the Rams specifically, as Stafford has gotten older, I think he's just a little bit more fragile when it comes to the protection and how it affects him. I mentioned this stat on the six quarterback show that we did earlier this summer, but I'll use it again here because I think it's really telling. quarterbacks with a worse EPA per drop back than Matthew Stafford when pressured last year per next-gen stats Gardner Minshew Cooper Rush Will Levis Joe Flacco Spencer Rattler Russell Wilson Deshaun Watson Daniel Jones the only one of those guys the two of those guys will be starting three of those guys will be starters this year Joe Flacco Spencer Rattler and Daniel Jones all by

19:03Dave Helman: default yeah those are all not not quarterback situations really yeah that you're excited to

19:10Robert Mays: talk yeah every single one and russell wilson will be a starter for a little while all of those guys are starters with an asterisk when he was not pressured last year matthew stafford finished eighth in epa per drop back so i absolutely think that the quality of the offensive line and what they're getting from that group is what drives this passing offense and it probably will be again

19:30Derrik Klassen: and you're right to point out like it is elementary that your protection is going to affect your your quarterback play but i think as you said stafford is at a point in his career where it matters more to him than the vast majority of the starting quarterbacks in the nfl certainly like franchise quarterbacks yeah because he's not mobile like the other guys are i mean he

19:52Robert Mays: his ability to mitigate yeah 37 years old with a back problem we'll be getting to that in a second Don't you worry about it. My swing point for the Rams, Derek, and you and I have talked about this a lot over the course of the summer is what they get out of that Puna Ford, Nate Landman combo in the middle of the defense, because there are other question marks personnel wise on this defense. But I think what they did against the run last year, they just need to be better in that area. That's why you go out and get Puna Ford. And I feel like there were defensive coaches that were studying him this off season, just as when they were looking at other defenses.

20:24Robert Mays: And one of the ones I talked to, he was like, that guy's a free agent. when they were watching the Chargers. And so I do think that they thought, they think they stumbled into something here that might change what that front seven feels like on early downs against the run. This team was bottom 10 in rushing success rate last year. They were 30th in the number of negative runs they created last season per True Media, which is really surprising when you consider the chaos they can create as a pass rushing unit, the fact that they're not doing that against the run. So if you are not consistently stout against the run and you're not creating negatives, that's a problem.

21:02Robert Mays: We are coming at it from two different directions here. And so something needs to change about the complexion of this team's run defense. And they have paid Puna Ford a lot of money and they have tapped Nate Landman as this year's off ball linebacker du jour. Can that be enough for the run defense on this team to be better? I think that to me is where the defense will swing in 2025.

21:23Dave Helman: five yeah like all the cool stuff with their pass rush only matters insofar as how often can they get into pass rush downs which I talked about on an earlier show this offseason like they were the worst team in the NFL at getting opposing offenses into like third and seven plus which is obvious let the banshees go do what they're going to do as a pass rushing unit that was just not something that they could get to and when they did they were incredible it's just if you were the worst team in the league at getting there you're just not going to be able to unleash it so I have a good amount of faith that Puna Ford can bring that like I think he can do some of the just sit there be a fire hydrant take on some double teams but he also is a fairly explosive player and he's not going to be explosive in the way that like I don't know peak Javon Hargrave is in terms of getting in the backfield but he can get a little bit of push and really help the rest of the guys get into the backfield the the linebacker core I'm a little bit more dubious on you know Spates flashed some stuff as an undrafted free agent last year but that is kind of the extent of what I'll say there and then And Nate Landman was a guy who was let go from a Atlanta Falcons linebacker room who I don't think is very good.

22:23Dave Helman: And Landman to me is a guy who like. If you were trying to put together teach tape for like a high schooler, he would be great because he does do a lot of the right things. He steps the right way. His feel and zone coverage is really good. He's just always late because he just doesn't have it athletically. And I do think with as explosive as the rest of the front is, maybe they just create enough space for him. I think that's the vision would be a problem. but I we saw that with Roseboom for a long time and it kind of felt similar and I didn't love

22:49Robert Mays: that so we'll see let's get to what's keeping us up at night about the 2025 Los Angeles Rams I don't know about you guys but for me it's the 37 year old quarterback with a back injury

23:00Dave Helman: yeah it's the 37 year old quarterback with a back injury who they keep having to like wheel out to some fake van for most practices I was gonna say do we have to bring up the airstream for this

23:09Derrik Klassen: toaster yeah i'm not i'm i don't love it when i see the mobile back repair unit on the rams property yeah that's gonna be in my head for the rest of the year and i think more than that it's like some of the instances where sean mcveigh is like oh matt was walking around practice today he was looking good i'm like walking around he's gonna get hit by nick bosa 10 times this year

23:31Robert Mays: as a man who was 37 until yesterday and is now 38 i sympathize with where matthew stafford is right now. I do not have to make it through an entire NFL season. While even if the offensive line is good, taking four or five shots in the ribs a game. So this is absolutely where my anxieties lie with the Los Angeles Rams. I will say this, Dave mentioned that 2022 season. We're not there anymore because as disappointing of an option as Jimmy Garoppolo might be, if he was your$20 million a year starting quarterback, he is a serviceable option as your backup quarterback. Devante Adams may have some thoughts on that.

24:07Robert Mays: In most situations, if you had to go to Jimmy Garoppolo as your backup, you'd feel okay about that. But we discussed this in the seat at the table show we did a couple of weeks ago. This isn't about making it through the regular season is like a frisky nine or 10 win team. That's, those are not the aspirations that this team has. So even if you can get to the end with Jimmy Garoppolo and be consistently competitive, you are not a championship contender with Jimmy Garoppolo as your quarterback. And I think that's where this team wants to be, Dave.

24:37Derrik Klassen: I would never dream of wishing for this to happen because I want to, I want to watch Stafford as often as possible, but I'm just stuck on the idea of the news cycle. If Jimmy G has to step in for two or three weeks to save this team season, that would be very entertaining. I don't want it to happen, but that is a fascinating little wrinkle of Jimmy G and Devante Adams potentially reuniting to keep the Rams season on the tracks. Let's just hope that doesn't happen.

25:04Dave Helman: He would throw Puka Nakua 20 balls a game. Like he would not even look Devontae's way.

25:09Robert Mays: Just going to pray that we don't have to deal with that reality. We don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but if you're trying to make the optimistic case for why it would look different for Jimmy, and he played well last year when they had him play in week 18. The entire difference is when he was in, there's so much irony here because he started his career in this offensive system. The Raiders offensive system with Josh McDaniels is significantly different than what he is asked to do as a passer for the Rams and the Niners. If you put Jimmy in like a pure progression offense where it's like, all right, Jimmy, we're going to start to the left.

25:37Robert Mays: We're going to come all the way back to the right. If you see a guy who's open, throw him the ball. He could actually do that. Like he's actually pretty good at that and does that pretty efficiently in out in with the readers. It was all right, Jimmy, uh, based on whether or not you think this is man or zone, or whether you think this is one high, too high. You need to pick a side based on that. And then his brain just got fried on the way to the answer. And so I do think McVay believes that if you put him in a system where all you're asking him to do is point and shoot based on who the open guy is, he has shown an ability to do that.

26:06Robert Mays: But I, that doesn't mean I have to be excited about that version of it. When we know what the Matthew Stafford version looks like.

26:14Derrik Klassen: I just think this is going to be a season. It reminds me, you know, I covered, I covered the 20, what was it? 14 season where Tony Romo was taking every Wednesday off of practice. And it was just a weekly prayer to hope that his back was okay. And I feel like the Rams are probably in for that type of season. Even if there's no like major injury, it's how many hits did you take? How much time do you need to get yourself right by Friday? I think it's going to, it's going to be an anxious way to live. If I had to guess. Hopefully it's not worse than that, but that's just the realities of having a 37 year old quarterback.

26:50Derrik Klassen: Derek, what's keeping you up at night about the Rams?

26:53Dave Helman: Yeah, my other one is, and I've realized this is a theme for me. This is something I bring up with a lot of teams. The corners are not good enough to me. I kind of like the safeties on this team, actually, like Cam Carolla is a guy that I enjoy as like a B minus level player. Like I think he can do a lot for you and play in the box. Cameron Kinch is like, I don't know what the ceiling for him is, but I did think that he played pretty well as a third round rookie last year. So that safety deal, I'm fine with the corner room, especially on the outside of like a Kelo Weatherspoon and Darius Williams just doesn't really move me.

27:22Dave Helman: Those are to me two guys who like if they're your third corner and got to come off the bench to play like three, four games at a time, that's great when they're the two guys you're walking into the season with as like your one and two starters. I get a little bit dubious of that.

27:35Robert Mays: I was really hoping they do a little bit more at that spot. I think they took out a manual Forbes. It's kind of like a pet project experiment to see what they could get out of him, which I completely understand. Like Emmanuel Forbes is one of the most I can fix that guy. He was a first round pick. Let's see what we could do players of all time. And so I think that's been a little bit of a curiosity for them this offseason. I did hope they do a little bit more at outside corner. Other than that, I think that the safety room is good. Quentin Lake can kind of be that big nickel for you. And that's a serviceable group.

28:02Robert Mays: I think Cam Kitchens will be better this year. Here is the optimistic spin I'm going to give you, Derek. I think this team, especially on third down, which is where you would be a little bit afraid of these guys holding up, had a good formula for how they can protect them. On third down last year, when this team played man coverage, they actually had a bottom five blitz rate and were 12th in success rate when they did not blitz. And part of the reason they accomplished that is that on third down last year, they played six or more DBs on 60 % of their snaps. This was a dime team on like almost any team in football except for the Vikings.

28:38Robert Mays: And in those looks against man coverage, they can give help to everybody. They did a lot of like one Roberts stuff where the both of the safeties are free. And so they're accounting for having guys on the outside corner that you wouldn't love in one on one matchups. And they were able to hold up in those situations pretty well. So it was either that where we're giving a lot of additional help to these guys just to make us feel a little bit better. Or if we're bringing five, we have the best pass rush in football. So when they blitzed on third down last year, they had the second highest pressure rate in the league.

29:10Robert Mays: It was 64 % of dropbacks. And they were fifth in success rate on those plays. So it's either we're not going to blitz and use extra bodies and coverage playing a ton of time. Or we have the best blitz plan in football and we are not going to make those guys cover quite as long. they're not good answers but i think if i'm trying to find the silver lining here those are the

29:33Dave Helman: answers that i would land on it's something and i will admit that i think part of my contention with a lot of these secondaries is like in my ideal world you can just man up and play whenever you want to and like the reality is most secondaries can't do that how many teams could actually do that is the answer is the question not a whole lot but this is one of the like the lower teams in my end of like if you really had to do that like a playoff environment i'm pretty scared of what a Kelo Witherspoon running 30 yards down the field with someone looks like.

30:01Derrik Klassen: Okay. I just, I would like to say I have an irrational amount of love for a Kelo Witherspoon. I'm not trying to convince you that he's like a good player for what he is. Yeah, no, exactly. Like the, the problem is not a Kelo Witherspoon. It's that the Rams don't have at least one better corner on the roster. Like if he was the other guy, if he was CB two and a better player with CB one, I'd be like, yeah, this is fine. He can, you know, he's, he's going to get beat, but he'll make a couple of plays over the course of the year. It's the fact that he's probably your best corner that makes this scary.

30:34Robert Mays: Their answer of we're going to solve the problems with the front is an answer I'm willing to accept as we get to Labor Day weekend, because I have to choose to believe it. What are we watching over the first month of the season, Dave, for the Los Angeles Rams.

30:48Derrik Klassen: Well, we just wrote an ode to Devante and Puka, which is kind of how this goes with the Rams. Like that's what we focus on and rightfully so, but I'm really intrigued by the non-marquee skill players on the Rams roster. Cause it's not, it's not necessarily just Puka and Devante and a bunch of scrubs like Tyler Higbee is back from injury. He last year was basically a wash for him. And obviously they used the second round pick on Terrence Ferguson. So that right there is two pretty intriguing tight ends, particularly the rookie, because I've heard so much about how they like him. And then obviously they just paid Kyron Williams, which he he's good for what he is.

31:31Derrik Klassen: I don't think anybody thinks of him as like a super big play threat, but they've spent big time draft picks on Blake Corum and Jarquez Hunter in the last couple of years. And so I'm just curious what the hierarchy here is like at the end of the day, the vast majority of the targets are probably going to come from the two headliners, but there's a lot of room for, for intrigue and fun stuff that Sean McVay can do. Cause they got guys elsewhere on this step chart behind those two receivers. I'll believe that Sean wants to use in second running

32:02Robert Mays: back when I see it. So when it's a valid point, but they keep drafting them though, when they keep

32:08Derrik Klassen: insurance, baby insurance.

32:09Robert Mays: When it comes to the workload for the running backs, I assume they want to divvy it up a little bit more. Kyra Williams got 316 carries last year and played like a vast, vast majority of the snaps in 16 games. So that to me is like a let's wait and see the receivers. I'm very curious about this. The Tutu Atwell part of it. I do think that not having when you have Cooper Cup and Tutu Atwell and you have two guys that you kind of have to manufacture space for and put in motion in order to help create that space. It's hard to do when you have two of them. Now you have one guy that you have to keep in motion to make sure that you're giving him access consistently.

32:45Robert Mays: And so I do think that allows them to weaponize Atwell because of Devontae Adams in a way that they really couldn't before. And then the Terrence Ferguson part of this, Derek, I think that is where hopefully you can make up a little bit of the gap with the blocking that you're losing from Cooper Cup. because if you look at some of Cooper Cup's best moments last year, it's him running the seam. And that's exactly what you could potentially get from Terrence Ferguson is kind of like a vertical F tight end type player. And so them being in a little bit more 12 personnel, they say it's the same thing with diversifying the running backs.

33:17Robert Mays: We hear it every summer that it's going to happen. I do actually think with Tyler Higbee and Colby Parkinson being those inline guys and Ferguson being able to step in for you with some of the Cooper Cup stuff, this might be the year where we actually see the 12 personnel uptick for the Rams.

33:33Dave Helman: I hope so, because anyone who watched our draft show knows that I love Terrence Ferguson and like Devontae Adams is not replacing Cooper Cup. I think we need to get that in our head. Like it's a completely separate role. They're replacing Cooper Cup in the aggregate with guys like Terrence Ferguson and potentially like Jordan Whittington. Like, I think if you want to have three receivers on the field and be a little bit heavier with Whittington and have him block. Now you can just have Puka Nakua and Devontae Adams like just win on the outside. And I think that that can be really valuable. And then again, Ferguson is like, he's not the biggest guy and he's probably going to be just OK as a blocker.

34:07Dave Helman: But God damn, he is an athlete, man. And I'm really, really excited to see what that might look like in a Sean McVay offense, whether that's down the seam, some of these crossers we've seen at times like Sean McVay really put up a really good tight end screen game for Higby. And I wonder if maybe Ferguson can eat into some of that because he's a really good athlete. like I'm just between Whittington and Ferguson. I'm excited to see how like they kind of eat into what the former Cooper Cup role was.

34:30Robert Mays: The last thing I'll say about the receiving core, just as one of the elements where Devonta Adams is going to be important through Rams finished sixth from the bottom in EPA per drop back against man coverage last year. The only teams that were worse than them were the Browns, the Giants, the Patriots, the Titans and the Colts. Devonta Adams is your answer to that because that is where Devonta Adams can make teams pay. And so I think there are a lot of layers to what the offense can potentially be because he is there this year. Dave, what does success look like for the 2025 Los Angeles Rams?

35:03Derrik Klassen: We said it at the top, this whole division, the answers to these questions are very interesting. And I think the Rams are simultaneously in a really good spot, but a really scary spot, right? Cause they're set up well for the future, but Matthew Stafford turns 38 the day before Super Bowl 60. How poetic Matthew Stafford turns 38 the day before a Super Bowl that's happening in the 49ers stadium. I think when you are, when, when you have a quarterback as good as Stafford, who is as close to the end of his career as Stafford with this type of talent around him, I mean, maybe, maybe it's harsh to say Super Bowl or bus, but I think, I think success is a real run through the playoffs, like NFC title game type of run where you, you are one of the last team standing and potentially get to the final game.

35:58Derrik Klassen: And, you know, like I said, there's a lot of stuff to like about this team beyond the present, but you don't know how much longer Matthew Stafford is going to be part of it. That's not, you know, tomorrow is not guaranteed with that. So I think if you don't maximize the last year or two that he has left, I think you got to view that as a disappointment.

36:16Dave Helman: Yeah, you have to make a run with the way that this team is built, with the way that the front is built, with the way that you invested in Devontae Adams. Like you kind of have to make a run. Now, them them failing this year, they are more OK with that than most other teams because of the first round pick and all that stuff and how young the defense is. So failure for them is not as catastrophic as it might be for other teams. But that doesn't mean that it like lowers the bar for them. The bar is still you probably should be at the final four. And so that's that's kind of what I'm expecting from them.

36:42Robert Mays: I have the NFC title game because when you have a 37 year old Matthew Stafford and you sign 32 year old Devontae Adams, it's not a win later move. Like you are trying to win this year. You're trying to push your chips in. And if they don't do it, they have not compromised their future because of the extra draft capital. They have 80 million dollars in cap space next year. When they do have to eventually hit that soft reset, they'll be able to do it. And I think smoothly do it in a way that other teams might not be able to. But that doesn't change what the ambitions for this year are. And I think those are championship level ambitions.

37:13Derrik Klassen: yeah the idea that an extra first round pick could help you find your quarterback of the future is super exciting and this sounds like such a fun year to be a Rams fan because the current team is going to give you a shot and you can like root against the Falcons if you want to like you get to you get to watch how good the first round pick is going to be when it's all said and done but potentially finding your quarterback of the future who in your wildest dreams is as good as Matthew Stafford. Like that doesn't lessen the urgency of trying to get over the hump one last time before one of the best quarterbacks of the last 20 years finally retires.

37:54Robert Mays: Amen. All right, we're going to take our first quick break here and then come back with the Seattle Seahawks.

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42:39Robert Mays: guaranteed extended Jaron Reed three years, 22 million,$10 million guaranteed. Traded Gino Smith to the Raiders, chatted D.K. Metcalf to the Steelers, lost J.M. Jones, Tyler Roy Robertson Harris in free agency, released Tyler Lockett, drafted Gray Zabel, offensive lineman in the first round, safety Nick Emanwari in the second round, 35th overall, traded up to do that. Tight end Elijah Arroyo in the second round, 50th overall, and quarterback J.L. Milrow, third round, 92nd overall. I was the, we had to like rotate off who was the auctioneer for our fantasy draft this year. Cause we couldn't find one.

43:11Robert Mays: And I, I really, I really liked it. And my, my, my, my, everybody was giving me shit. They're like, you're enjoying this way too much. And I was like, I am, I am kind of liking it. So the off seasons in 60 seconds allow me to tap into my auctioneer DNA that I'm really trying to cultivate over here.

43:28Dave Helman: You've got the reps though. Who would have knew that that was your other calling.

43:30Robert Mays: let's get to what we're excited to watch for the 2025 seattle seahawks we all had a pretty similar answer to this one derrick how do you want to frame this i mean if everything goes right

43:42Dave Helman: and we get the same jump that we've seen from mike mcdonald before like it might be the best defense in the league and i know i feel like a broken record because i've said that for probably like four teams at this point but that's kind of how defense goes right like there's you can do

43:53Robert Mays: there can be a short list of candidates for that that's okay because with offense it's like oh well

43:59Dave Helman: the quarterback kind of makes it easier to like be a little bit more solidified with that. But with defense, it really is you go in with like five or six ideas. And I think that Seattle is every bit as as good as a lot of those teams, especially I think they are maybe a little bit a smidgen less like uber talented as some of the other teams. But I just trust Mike McDonald so much and just what he's been able to do over the last three years that whatever little quirks they needed to work out going into this year, I'm like pretty confident they're going to be able to get that stuff ready. Yeah.

44:27Derrik Klassen: You didn't bring Mike McDonald in to develop a quarterback or teach a scheme or any of the offensive side of the ball stuff. You brought him in to build a bad-ass defense and on paper anyway, he has the personality to do it. Like he's got some demons on that side of the ball. And it's hard not to think about the jump the Ravens made in his second year as their defensive coordinator. It's year two. The guys that have been there know the scheme. there's a lot of new talent on that side of the ball it's it's very exciting to to think about

45:00Dave Helman: the potential of this defense and I think like before we dig in even further like one thing I would say about Mike McDonald is we've already seen him both in Baltimore and in Seattle like get the best out of uh players immediately like I think Roquan Smith probably played the best ball that he's ever played um under under Mike McDonald like Leonard Williams has probably played the best ball that he's ever played uh under Mike McDonald so like the fact that he's already gotten that from a number of guys who have been good, but not great yet. I think like speaks to what he might be able to get out of some of these other guys.

45:29Robert Mays: When you look at what they were in the back half of last season, they finished top five and EPA per drop back from weeks 10 through 18. And the thing that I think is even more important than that, they finished eighth in defensive rushing success rate in the back half of last year. And that was the thing where in the first half of the season, they had absolutely no shot. And so after they traded for Ernest Jones and settled in a little bit, I think he's been somebody, the coaches in Seattle, noticed the difference when he got there and the coaches in Tennessee noticed the difference when he left.

45:56Robert Mays: I think he has been a settling force for the teams that he has been on over the last couple seasons. And you have seen that in the results. And Dave, you mentioning the transition from year one to year two for McDonald in Baltimore. I think that we may see something similar here. And you look at it and Mike McDonald is this guy who I think is kind of tabbed as this mad scientist, like Wunderkind guy on defense compared to the young guys on offense in his division, right? Like he's supposed to be like the McVay and Shanahan guy on the defensive side of the ball. It's part of the reason he got the job.

46:26Robert Mays: And with those guys, I think we always kind of envision them like on the attack, on the attack, on the attack. And Mike McDonald does kind of take that mindset to defense. Like sometimes like when you are trying to figure out your offensive game plan, how you're calling plays. The thought is, OK, based on this formation, this personnel grouping, these sorts of tendencies, I'm going to do these calls in order to attack their weaknesses here. And you talk to coaches that have coached with Mike McDonald, and he kind of takes that to on the defensive side where he's using all of these tendencies to kind of put you put you in the perfect play based on all that information.

46:57Robert Mays: And but the one area where I do think it's a little bit different mindset wise is that I think the first year in Baltimore, based on how the first month of that year went, and even last year a little bit, he's still a defensive coach who is trying to mitigate risk. Right. You're trying to make sure that the downside is not quite as bad as you want it to be. And in Baltimore, I think the most important transition that he had as a coach was that he went from calling the defense in order to limit mistakes to calling the defense through the players in order to maximize opportunities. And that requires getting your feet wet a little bit and establishing a baseline, but it also requires getting to know those players a little bit more.

47:37Robert Mays: And I think that is the process that has happened over the past year or so in Seattle. So you go from a limiting downside mindset to a how can I get the most out of the ceiling mindset? And I think that is going to be the most important transition that we see for the Seahawks defense this year.

47:55Dave Helman: Yeah, I think these defensive guys, especially like Mike McDonald, just like they want to. I think because he calls a defense that is so I need to be in the right play and need to be perfect. Like you said, he needs to set himself a baseline to know, like, what is going to screw me instead of just like throwing everything at the wall. And then like, I think that becomes a little bit jumbled and some defensive coordinators are okay living in that. I mean, the Ravens themselves did it for a long time with Wink Martindale. But Mike McDonald is very much the opposite of that, where I think he's trying to start with the few things that work and then expand from there instead of throwing a million things at the wall and trying to whittle it down.

48:28Derrik Klassen: I think, too, like you just mentioned, Robert, like when you trade for Ernest Jones midseason because it's so bad that you need a stabilizing force. Trust is obviously a big part of this. And I've got to imagine the trust factor is through the roof in August of year two, as opposed to midway through a first year that at least for the first half of the season was not working at all.

48:54Robert Mays: And you just look at this defense personnel wise, Jerry or Derek, you mentioned that maybe there isn't quite the star level talent that we've seen on like the Baltimore defense, all that, the truly kind of difference making season defining defenses. There are also no real weak links on this defense. like maybe a second outside corner you're a little bit worried about and if eminwari is going to be their primary nickel player which we'll talk about in a second and he's decent from the start their worst starter is tyrese knight in that situation and i actually thought that tyrese was okay last year as a rookie and so there just aren't that many weak links on this team so if you combine that where you have a floor positionally with a couple of these younger pieces, which we'll hit on taking a step and kind of asserting themselves as those difference making players.

49:41Robert Mays: I think that's when you can really start cooking with gas and not, this isn't theoretical. Like, again, this was like a top five defense by a lot of metrics over the second half of last season. So the proof is there. Like we have seen what they can be at their best and I expect them to continue on that trajectory.

49:57Dave Helman: Yeah. And like even the Tyrese Knight thing, again, young player showed some stuff at the end of last year, but it's, it's almost a little bit of the Roquan Smith thing where it's like, well when you're a young linebacker playing next to someone who is that put together do you have some degree of like he might be able to develop in a nice way for us

50:11Robert Mays: let's talk about the swing points with the 2025 seattle seahawks mine for this is essentially just whether their bet on the offensive identity change is ultimately going to work and you look at what the offense was last year there compared to what the offense is now it couldn't be more different And I think that was the point is that you go from a system under Ryan Grubb where the pass and run games are completely divorced from one another. There's actually no cohesion between them to a system where there's as much cohesion as possible because of what the play action game is supposed to be within this offense.

50:46Robert Mays: And the number that I would throw out that I think really kind of illustrates this. No offense in the NFL last season played more snaps against base defense than the New Orleans Saints. It was 500 snaps. Seattle was 30th.

51:00Dave Helman: wow that actually that completely that's amazing that is such good whiplash and it makes sense if

51:06Derrik Klassen: you watched those teams play there they have two fullbacks on the roster they sure do the

51:12Robert Mays: saints last year finished 31st and 11 personnel usage it was 33 of their place that's what we're looking at here and the hope is that that sort of identity change and structural change along with adding a gray Zabel and we'll see what happens at center. Like I think that Jalen Sundell has actually had some really nice moments in the preseason. So I do think that the personnel is going to be better up front, but even if the personnel wasn't necessarily better, I think that what the system is and how that asks a little bit less of the line, it was always going to be better. And so if the run game can really click because of Zabel and the changes in the interior and the system, and you're protecting the offensive lineman a little bit more, even if there's a slight concern about a mild downgraded quarterback however we want to see this the bet overall might be enough to just change everything about the way that the seattle seahawks offense feels week in

52:04Derrik Klassen: and week out and it's very funny to see how encouraging just a month of preseason football has been because when they signed sam darnold and didn't do a whole lot else in free agency I remember being confused to the point of almost angry where I was like, Hey, Gino had to work miracles to keep himself alive here. What do you think Sam Darnold's going to do? Then they draft graze able and you're like, all right, like, yes, I like that. That's better. But 18th overall pick FCS player, like how much difference is one guy going to make? Then you get to August and watch graze able play. And you're like, I like this.

52:48Derrik Klassen: This is really nice. Like he looks phenomenal. Maybe if you get some better health from your offensive tackles, obviously Charles cross and Abe Lucas both had their struggles last year with injury among other things, all of a sudden. And I think you just took me to another level, Robert. Like when you mentioned that part of it, like just the structural change of this offense, I'm already daydreaming about this being such a better offensive line than I thought it was going to be in March. I think that's fair.

53:17Robert Mays: I don't think that's crazy to imagine.

53:19Dave Helman: yeah my my thing with this offense is like I just I think the offensive line could be better by virtue of what they're doing with uh the new scheme and all that stuff and obviously adding Gray Zabel um and I I can envision the world where Sam Darnold is okay because I actually think that there are parts of last year that felt kind of real to me like in the way that you were kind of talking about Jimmy Garoppolo like I think Sam Darnold is good at just like go one to two to three and if you see someone open just chuck it bud and he did a really good job with that and He has an incredible arm to fit some of those windows, even if he's like a smidgen late.

53:52Dave Helman: I thought he did better at like reading the Blitz and handling the Blitz. And I thought Sam Darnold was ever going to like he was 14th in the league last year, according to NFL Pro against the Blitz, which is not spectacular by any means, but it's totally solid. And so if we're operating under the idea that it's a similar ish system, I think he could do something similar there. The problem to me is that even though I think Sam Darnold. proved to some degree that he can play NFL quarterback. He also plays it in a very particular way. And what I mean by that is he's going to hold the ball for an extremely long time.

54:22Dave Helman: And in Minnesota, that was OK, because even though the offensive line was shaky, you always had Justin Jefferson down there somewhere. You always had Jordan Addison down there somewhere. And while I like some of the pass catchers here in Seattle, mostly JSN, they're not Justin Jefferson. They are not Jordan Addison. To me, it's just a very different thing. Like nobody got more EPA per drop back on deep throws last year than Sam Darnold. if that drops down to even average in this offense and then all the other parts of quarterbacking really become more prominent for Sam. I just I wonder a little bit what that looks like.

54:52Robert Mays: Let's that brings me to what's keeping me up at night because my keeping me up at night is the pass catchers outside JSN and where this team finds explosive place. I am talking to people there and just thinking about explosive offenses in the NFL and what they typically look like. there are examples of explosive offenses in the NFL that don't necessarily have a burner as part of the equation. You look at Buffalo, you look at Baltimore and what they've been able to do without that like turbocharged piece as part of the equation. And this team just released MVS, right? Like there is not a lot of speed here, depending on what you're considering you might get out of Torrey Horton.

55:28Robert Mays: The argument was that, well, there are offenses that do it, right? Baltimore does it. Buffalo does it. Well, they have Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. And so where this team finds explosive plays, that is going to be my question. I think the JSN is underrated as a vertical receiver, just because I do think on some of those like drifts and kind of intermediate in cuts and even like corner routes and stuff like that. The way he moves is really interesting. Talking to Sam Darnold when I was there, we were talking about this and he was like, it's almost like he's playing on skates. Like his ability to kind of move at full speed and change direction is kind of incredible.

56:03Robert Mays: And so I do think that he has more explosive potential than how we normally think about JSN as a quote unquote slot receiver. My question is outside of him, where are those plays coming from?

56:16Dave Helman: That's kind of the question.

56:18Derrik Klassen: I was curious about this. I went and looked at next gens like mile per hour stats where they like track player speed, which you're, you're absolutely right, Robert, like JSN, of course he's not like Tyree kill, but like his, he's got plenty of juice. He's got plenty of plenty. Yeah. He had 35 routes last year where he reached 18 miles per hour, which puts him right in line with like DJ Moore, DK Metcalf, Jamar chase. Like he ain't the fastest guy in the league, but he can do the job. Now, do you want to know how many times Cooper cup did that? Zero. He got, he got, it's a handful. he got there nine times okay nine times so uh yeah that that is the problem and yeah you mentioned tory horton i think that's worth bringing up but a fifth round rookie who had an exciting training camp is not who you want to be relying on for for extra juice and i'm with you i think jsn is plenty good enough he's all he's a great yak receiver too by the way 44 of his yards came after the catch.

57:21Derrik Klassen: Awesome. But I would like a little bit more, the running backs as good as I think that they can be. They're not really known for being explosive players either. Charbonnet's explosive run rate was 11.9%. Kenneth Walker's was eight and a half. Charbonnet's is a little bit better, but you're still not talking about big play guys. So I expect Kenneth Walker to

57:43Robert Mays: potentially be that big play guy this year in better circumstances. Walker is a valid point. If Kenneth Walker isn't getting, so last year, the Seahawks, I mean, look up the number. I was just looking it up while we were talking. Finished 29th in the percentage of their runs that went for zero or negative yards last year. The amount of times they're getting hit in the backfield on this team last season was just disgusting. And so if we can have a little bit better of a rushing ecosystem for Kenneth Walker, he is an explosive player if you put him in the right situation. And so I'm a little bit more bullish on that.

58:13Robert Mays: But the pass catchers, it's like, I don't think you have to have explosive pass catchers to be a very good or efficient passing offense. And I do think a system that's built around JSN, Cooper Cup, where neither of them are really outside receivers because of the condensed formations you're playing with. Neither of them are slot receivers because you're playing in a lot of 12 personnel. Elijah Arroyo and A.J. Barner. I think you can make that work, but it requires real precision from the quarterback in a way that we have not really had to see him play, Derek. And so I think that is the bridge that we're going to have to cross here if we're going to get the best version of the Seahawks offense.

58:52Dave Helman: That's exactly like guys like Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison and even TJ Hawkinson, when he looked decent last year, just give you so much more room for error than I think Sam is going to have this year.

59:02Robert Mays: Yeah, I think that's a good way to frame it. The margin for error is limited when you aren't creating explosive plays. And can they be consistently efficient with this pass catching group? I do think that they're going to use a ton of play action. They're going to use a ton of keepers. They're going to try to manufacture these sorts of down the field plays in ways that we've seen other teams without a lot of top end speed do. Whether or not they're going to be able to get there, my biggest question that I have about this team. Let's talk about what we're watching the first month of the season with the Seahawks.

59:30Robert Mays: What do you got for me, Derek?

59:32Dave Helman: yeah so I think that Seattle Seahawks defense is going to be really good kind of regardless of what they get from this player but I am very curious to see what they actually get out of Nick Emanwari like it seems like they want him to be their slot like big nickel type it's just to me it's like I still don't love that because it means that Witherspoon is going to be playing outside which I don't love but then also at the same time I would not want Emanwari playing like a true safety role so I'm just curious like how much do they actually put him on the field um do they get to a point where like with Kyle Hamilton eight weeks into the season, they're like, actually, we want him a little bit deeper.

1:00:05Dave Helman: Like, I'm just very curious to see what they want to actually do with him.

1:00:08Robert Mays: It does seem like the nickel plan is the plan. I mean, he played nickel on 20 of 24 of his defensive snaps in the preseason. And I think going back to what we're talking about with Mike McDonald at the top limiting risk, you limit risk by playing your young rookie closer to the ball than having him be the last line of defense. And Kyle Hamilton is a superstar level player. Now we remember what those first four to six games looked like with the Ravens in Kyle Hamilton's rookie year when he was playing mostly safety. And I think the, that's probably the argument for why they're keeping his scope pretty narrow right now and really just asking him to focus on that.

1:00:42Robert Mays: But I think part of the reason they want him there. And part of the reason they sought him out is that this is a team that in my opinion, wants to play nickel to everything. I don't think they want to have to put base defense on the field and the teams that are capably able to do that are the ones that have these big nickel players who you can just leave out there all the time. You're Cooper DeJeans, people like that. Teron Johnson is not a big nickel guy, but he can hold up in those looks. So I think that's the vision. And if you look at the numbers last year, the Seahawks against the pass were bottom eight in success rate when playing base.

1:01:13Robert Mays: They were top rate in success rate when playing nickel. And I just don't think they want to be in a spot where they ever have to put base defense on the field. And the hope is that Emin Wari allows them to do that. I don't think that means he's the full-time nickel because I do still think that, like you said, you want to put Spoon in those positions because he's so dynamic. But I think making sure you never have to have three linebackers on the field, that feels like the vision for Eman Warrion. What is the driving force behind it? Dave, what do you got for me? What are you watching the first month of the season for the Seahawks?

1:01:43Derrik Klassen: There was a time in my life where I would have stood on the table to defend Demarcus Lawrence as one of the more underrated ends in the league. Like earlier in his career, didn't get as much pub. He's not a double digit sack kind of guy, at least not when he's fighting through a franchise tag situation. But does the dirty work. Great run defender. Can chip in six to eight sacks. Plays with physicality. he was he was a very underrated player for a large swath of his career I'm not convinced that that's still the case I mean it's 2025 at this point DeMarcus Lawrence is 33 years old he didn't sign like the biggest deal in the world and from what I can gather the Seahawks structured it in a smart way it's like a three-year 30 million dollar deal but 18 million of it is guaranteed they can get out of this like after a year if it seems like the game has passed to Marcus Lawrence by but that's the big question for me he's 33 he had a Liz Frank injury last year basically didn't have a season obviously got you know he got relocated to second tier status when Micah Parsons blew up a few years ago and now he's looking for a restart at the age of 33 in Seattle I'm just curious to see is he anything like the guy from we'll say 2018 to 2022 yeah and he was he was pretty good in 2023 as well what's left in the tank because if something's there again that's just that that's super fun for the seahawks pass rush it's great for their run defense it's just another guy mike mcdonald mike mcdonald can use in a lot of ways you can probably kick him inside at times if you want to, if there's not a whole lot there, then$18 million, like, all right, we'll find our answer to this next year.

1:03:31Derrik Klassen: So I, I, I'm just curious to see what he looks like at this stage of his career.

1:03:34Robert Mays: And why I think that's particularly important to mention is that they didn't pay him a ton, but it was like the move they made in free agency. It was the, it was the only thing they did. And they're carrying about$76 million in dead money this year. They spent a ton of cash on the Darnold contract. And so they didn't really, they weren't, they weren't very aggressive in the market this year. That was what they did. And the opportunity costs with doing that, instead of trying to seek out like a mid tier garden free agency and helping fortify that area, that's why they need this to work because this is the one thing they did with the money to go back to my point.

1:04:07Derrik Klassen: And I get it. Like you're probably not finding great offensive line play for a bargain and free agency. But in March, I was like, we're signing 33 year old edge rushers instead of trying to fix this offensive line and maybe Gray's able will mitigate that and make it a moot point. But yeah, I do remember feeling puzzled by that when it happened.

1:04:27Dave Helman: So the only reason I kind of like it actually is like wood signing a mid rat, like a mid tier guard have made the offense good enough to what that's what wins Seattle games. I don't think so, but I do think making sure McDonald has enough pass rushers to do what he wants to do on defense is how they can win games. So I'm kind of okay with it.

1:04:46Robert Mays: I don't disagree with that, but that's, this is the bet you made. And so you better hope that the bet works out that being the vision where it's like, we're going to have the scheme lifted. We've drafted enough of these guys in the middle rounds, your Anthony Bradford's, your, uh, Christian Haynes is like, we're going to just see what we have in those guys. And we're going to hope that the system change on offense allows us to find one guy among that group combined with Zabel. That's the plan we want to, this is the best way to use this money. because this is the best player available, that's fine.

1:05:16Robert Mays: But if that bet doesn't work out and that's how you've decided to spend your limited free agent money outside of the Darnold contract, eventually you have to pay for that. And so that's my only concern. It's like a swing point in a way. It's like, this is what you've done with the money. And so I'm fine kind of framing it this way. When I'm watching the first month of the season, who are the dudes going to be on this team?

1:05:38Dave Helman: I mean, who are they right now? It's kind of just Leonard, right? Like it's kind of just Leonard Williams at times, Devin Witherspoon, but again, he's playing outside when his best stuff was in the nickel.

1:05:47Derrik Klassen: I'm willing to call JSN a dude, or at least I'm that confident that he will be.

1:05:51Robert Mays: So that's, I'm fine with that. And I do believe he is on the short list of the guys who can become that like, where are the Holy shit players going to be on this team? I think Leonard Williams was that last year. I think we've seen flashes of that with Witherspoon. I think the JSN, I really, really like JSN and I'm excited to see what he can do is like the true focal point of the passing game. Is that it? Is able going to be one of those guys? Do one of the tackles take a step forward in a new offensive system with Abe Lucas being healthy? AJ Barner is somebody that they really like as like an alpha kind of tone setter on the offense.

1:06:25Robert Mays: I don't think his numbers are ever be crazy. But when we think about the difference makers on the Seahawks teams that run the ball well, let's do it this way. Teams that run the ball poorly have shitty blocking tight ends almost exclusively. He is not that like he is. I do think in a better situation, he's going to be somebody that people notice more because the way they're running the ball. But how many of those guys do you find over the course of this year? Is Byron Murphy one of those guys for you? Does Eminwari become one of those guys for you? Because I do think the floor of this team talent wise is pretty high.

1:06:56Robert Mays: Who raises the ceiling by the midpoint of this season? That That to me might be the biggest question I have period about this team.

1:07:04Derrik Klassen: Probably. Did you, if you said it, I'm sorry. Did you say reekwilling? I mean, that's at least worth, but this it's year four.

1:07:10Robert Mays: Like is, are we betting on that happening?

1:07:12Derrik Klassen: Hey, contract year, baby. Let's go.

1:07:16Robert Mays: If they can get three, four or five of the guys from that list to like take a significant step forward. And we have some of those dudes on this team by the end. I do think the collective floor outside of that might be enough for them to be a playoff team. But I think it's going to have to happen. I think we're going to have to see a couple of those guys take that step in order for them to realize it. Speaking of, what is success, Dave, for the 2025 Seattle Seahawks?

1:07:43Derrik Klassen: Can tell I moved to Chicago because I got Notre Dame on the brain. But what I want the Seattle Seahawks to do more than anything is wake up the echoes of the Legion of Boom. Make me make me think of those Seattle teams. I have a vivid memories, Robert, and we started covering the league right around the same time, like 11, 12. Probably I have memories of like I would be in a hotel getting ready to go to a game and I would like turn on the TV and Seattle's on my TV. And I'm like, holy shit. They did what? Who? Who are these guys? Who's this Richard Sherman fella? They beat the shit out of who that's what I want from the Seahawks.

1:08:28Derrik Klassen: And I don't need them. Obviously the Legion of boom got to such a crazy height. I don't need them to be that. I don't need them to be arguably the best defense of the modern era, but when games with your defense, like be at the front of, of the recap shows because of something that the defense did show, like I want spoon and reek and earn it. Like all of these guys, DeMarcus Lawrence, Byron Murphy. I want them like celebrating in the end zone after something crazy that they did and like being a unit that's going to lead the team. And if they do that, then the win loss success will come.

1:09:04Robert Mays: I do think they have those personalities on defense. I think Spoon is at the center of that. But I do think that at least they have that level of energy on defense, whether it comes to fruition is the question.

1:09:15Dave Helman: To me, in like a kind of abstract way, like I think it's just like, yeah, the defense continues winning. And then there's proof of concept on the offense. So like that to me is like you kind of have the season that Denver had last year. And obviously that was a little bit different in terms of like have the feeling of it because there's rookie quarterback instead of like paying Sam Darnold, whatever you paid him. But if your defense is top five and winning you games week in and out and then the offense, maybe it's not perfect, but there is proof of concept and then reason to believe going forward.

1:09:41Dave Helman: And then we start talking about them the way that we're talking about Denver this time next year. That that is success to me.

1:09:48Derrik Klassen: yeah if if sam darnold is an afterthought because the defense is that good that would be really fun

1:09:55Robert Mays: yeah i think becoming one of those defenses proving that your experiment with the offensive system and tapping into this version of it was correct and establishing like four or five dudes you can really build around moving forward that i think almost accidentally makes you a team pushing for the playoffs and so the win-loss record is less important here but i think those are the components to me that qualify as success for the Seahawks team.

1:10:20Derrik Klassen: I will throw in the caveat. Gino Smith never had a losing record and we don't have to relitigate the decision to trade him. And maybe it was time for a change of scenery for everybody, but Gino Smith got the Seahawks to a winning record. So I don't think it's unreasonable. Like if, if you went down this path, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that they could at least go nine and eight.

1:10:44Robert Mays: Let's get to the Arizona Cardinals. They're off season in 60 seconds. No real changes on the coaching staff. They lost Clayton Adams as their offensive line coach and hired Justin Fry to replace him. That was really the only change. Extended Trey McBride, four years, 76 million, 43 guaranteed. Signed Josh Sweat, four years, 76 million, 38 guaranteed. Dalvin Tomlinson, two years, 29 million, 15 and a half guaranteed. Extended Baron Browning, two years, 15 million, 10 guaranteed. Brought in Jacoby Brissett, Calais Campbell, Akeem Davis Gaither, and brought back Kelvin Beecham. didn't really lose anybody of significance in free agency.

1:11:14Robert Mays: Roy Lopez and Dennis Gardek are really the only two guys that are not here anymore. Draft picks, defensive tackle Walter Nolan, 16th overall. Cornerback Will Johnson, second round, 47th overall. Jordan Burch, defensive lineman, third round, 78th overall. Linebacker Corey Simon in the fourth round, 115th overall. Dave, what are you excited to watch for the 2025 Arizona Cardinals?

1:11:37Derrik Klassen: I love roster building. I love the plans that front offices put in place over the course of multiple years. I love seeing what the blueprint and the build looks like for a team to achieve success. And I'm excited to see if the Cardinals plan comes together because it feels like a lifetime ago. It really wasn't at the start of the 2023 season, Jonathan Gannon's first season. The jokes were endless about whether the Cardinals were even trying to win games. Remember like Kyler Murray was on PUP because of his ACL tear Paris Johnson and Garrett Williams had not played a game for this team. Trey McBride was he was a promising player, but he wasn't like a known dude.

1:12:22Derrik Klassen: And only five guys from the 2023 defense that started the first game of the season are even still on the roster. Buda Baker and Jalen Thompson are the only starters left from that team. and so obviously like they they've revamped the entire thing it was the offense last year it was the defense this year and i don't need them to be world beaters but i'm just excited to see if they're right about all the moves that they've made and if they are then this should be a pretty good team this year they went from four and 13 to eight and nine and now it's it's time to take the next step and i'm i'm excited to see if that's something they can do they went from 29th and

1:13:05Robert Mays: DVLA in 2023 to 12 last year, collectively offense and defense combined significant step forward. Like the progress has been there. And part of, I completely agree with everything that you said in terms of like the trajectory of the franchise and what they're trying to be. And I actually think what they did in the draft this year is very indicative of where they are along that timeline. If you look at Paris Johnson, and I remember talking to people there after that first summer, that 2023 summer, two years ago, after they drafted Paris Johnson, the thought with those first couple of drafts was let's make sure we bring in people that are wired the right way that can set a foundation for what we want the franchise in the locker room to look like.

1:13:41Robert Mays: I don't think Paris Johnson was like the highest ceiling player ever drafted, but the wiring and the floor were something that they were excited about. Marvin Harrison was billed as like a generational wide receiver prospect, but I think Marvin Harrison has a lot of similarities to Paris Johnson in that way. Like everything about the way that Marvin Harrison is wired, everything about the way that he works, there was a real floor to Marvin Harrison as a prospect. You compare that to Malik neighbors where maybe the ceiling was a little bit higher, but there were some concerns about what the baseline might be.

1:14:11Robert Mays: Walter Nolan and Will Johnson are not that. Walter Nolan and Will Johnson are riskier players than that. Walter Nolan had some personality stuff coming out of Ole Miss. Will Johnson obviously had some injury stuff coming out of Michigan. But you hear about what those guys do on the practice field. And I think the Cardinals have done a good job, even if they've been a little bit wonky schematically, where if you put it in black and white and you allow your guys to paint by numbers a little bit, they've gotten the most out of the talent that's been on the roster. At a certain point, you need to stretch yourself a little bit to have guys that change your ceiling.

1:14:47Robert Mays: And I think that's what Walter Nolan and Will Johnson are as swings. And you combine that with what they did in free agency. This is it. like this is the year where we're going to walk into the season in Arizona with an offense and a defense that has NFL caliber players up and down the roster. What can we do with it? So I think that is David is a perfect way to frame like what, what is different about this team and how it feels different heading into this year.

1:15:11Dave Helman: And like the Will Johnson of it all is really honestly what gets me the most excited because he typically I fall for the, the man coverage corners, the guys who can just like bump and run and just run with people and be really aggressive. And Will Johnson is really not that he's more of like a he's got good size but he's a little bit more of a technician a little bit more of a gambler at times likes to jump on stuff but given what Arizona does up front and what I assume they will continue to do up front with some of their weird and wonky blitzes and stuff like that having a gambler is actually pretty good and that that adds to like two other really good pieces in the secondary like Buda Baker is continues to be one of the best safeties and most unique safeties in the league and I expect them to be pretty interesting there still and then Garrett Williams has quietly become one of the better nickels in the league and so there's still maybe some questions about like what max melton is going to be on on the other side outside but like those three players of johnson baker and williams like that's a pretty damn good

1:16:03Robert Mays: core for a young and good secondary yeah we'll see what will johnson is but i think that exact dna derek you're talking about where he's going to take some more chances and walter nolan's that sort of player too like every once in a while having a guy that's going to backdoor a play and try to blow something up and have it work you want those types of guys you want those types of guys where like you have to tell your position coaches and you know what you let that one go like you don't want to take that away from them and they really haven't had those types of players which is kind of why it's such a bummer that Walter Nolan is going to miss the first month of the season because I was curious what he would be in like the larger scale of this plan and for me what I'm excited about is just the defense period Derek you and I talked about them on the out of nowhere units show that we did I truly do believe that they're one of those teams that finished outside of the top 10 and most metrics that can be like a definitive top 10 defense this year.

1:16:51Robert Mays: DVOA projections, I think has them as like the seventh best defense in the league. And I don't think that's crazy at all because their struggles last year where they just could not line up and play up front because of the personnel that they had. They were 28th in rushing success rate last season. And that just put them in situations where they're behind the sticks all the time. They created a lot of explosive plays on their end, but they also gave up a lot of explosive plays on the ground because of the way that they were playing. All the run blitzes, all the three safety stuff. So I want to watch a team that has a lot of creative, interesting ideas on defense and watch those ideas filtered through better players.

1:17:28Robert Mays: I still think on early downs, we're going to see a lot of that five, one penny front stuff with the three safeties. But I, when a, if you, those plays end as more second and nines than second and fours, are we going to get to a spot on second and nine where we're playing four down with four players that are as good or better than your offensive linemen? And we're going to let those guys go to work. That was not an option for this team in years past. So them just being able to be a little bit simpler because they have good talent and be a little bit more dangerous when they are dynamic and creative in those other situations.

1:18:01Robert Mays: I do think that could lead to one of the best defenses in the league if things break right for them.

1:18:05Dave Helman: Yeah. For as much as I think we all love the like defense who can be like a little bit of a joker, a little bit of a wild card on any snap, like being a 10 out of 10 in that index is usually not good. It usually just means your team sucks. And like, it's fun as like a curiosity to watch in week 13 when I need something to really inspire me that late in the season. But like, ideally you're more of like an eight out of 10 on that index. And hopefully with some of the players they added, that's kind of where they land.

1:18:29Robert Mays: I'm a little bit worried about the secondary depth. I will say that I think losing star Thomas before the season is actually something to know. He was solid. And Sean Murphy Bunting played a ton of snaps for them too last year. And he's also hurt. And so I do believe that by the end of this year, Will Johnson and Max Melton were going to be their two outside corners. but now you're in a spot where they have to be right. Like you're relying on these guys from day one. And that just feels a little bit more precarious than the ideal situation heading into the season. But I believe that it was going to shake out that way anyway.

1:18:59Robert Mays: So I think that all of those changes, personnel wise up front, all the talent that they added, even getting like Darius Robinson back. So you have like a first round pick that being dropped back into the equation. I Baron Browning is back. Like they have a collection where they can be weird if they want to, and they can just line up and hit you in the mouth if they want to. And that was just not the case for this team last year. Let's get to the swing points for the 2025 Cardinals. Dave, what do you got for me?

1:19:26Derrik Klassen: I mean, we just talked about it, but I think the Cardinals are trying to microwave a pass rush and how well it works is going to be a huge turning point for this team. Like you sign Josh Sweat to a huge contract. You sign not like all pro defensive tackles, but defensive tackles who can do their jobs. Calais Campbell and Dalvin Tomlinson. You've got Darius Robinson coming back. It sucks that Walter Nolan is going to start the season on IR, but you'll get him back at some point in time. So it's it's funny. Like this is this is not a pass rush that I think on paper instills fear in your heart. But that's how much work the Cardinals needed where you're like, this is great.

1:20:10Derrik Klassen: this is an incredible improvement they're nfl players that that's and like josh sweat kind of

1:20:16Dave Helman: like encapsulates all that right like josh sweat is not a star player he had eight sacks last year i know the playoff run like kind of like colors the way that we think about him like he's a good run defender who can win as a pass rusher they didn't even have that last year like it was a lot of like hoping zayvon collins just crushes the pocket and gets them somewhere so the fact that they have a guy who like even in an ideal world sweat is probably your number two they did not have someone of even that quality last year. So getting him on the field, I do think goes a long way.

1:20:43Derrik Klassen: You know what I do love about it though, is typically like the cliche is you overspend in free agency and you pay a guy who's pretty good to be a great player. And like, you look at the situation and you're like, Oh, that's what's happening with Josh sweat. He's getting this crazy contract when he had such a better situation in Philadelphia, but he's making Greg Russo money. Like, it's not like Josh sweat broke the market, you know, like he, it is a very fair contract for a good edge rusher. It's right in line with the production that Josh sweat has had. So yeah, you pay more in free agency, but it's not a deal that should kill them.

1:21:23Derrik Klassen: And it's not a deal that necessitates. Josh sweat is like a 14 sack player. He just needs to be the guy that he was in Philadelphia. And obviously you need the other things to hit, but it's, it's nice to know that the Josh sweat contract. It shouldn't be hanging over them the way that you see with some free agent acquisitions, but down, down the line, I, one stat that I just have to read off. I need you guys to know this. I need the listeners to know this. Calais Campbell turns 39 on labor day, actually. So here in a few days, uh, at 39, he had more pressures last year than anyone on the Cardinals 2024 defense.

1:22:05Dave Helman: Like that's what we're, that's what we're talking about.

1:22:09Derrik Klassen: And on top of that, Clay's Campbell finished with PFFs best run defense grade among interior defensive linemen. Like he's still a very good player. Uh, Dalvin Tomlinson, probably not as good as what you remember from the giants or the Vikings, but again, just a massive improvement over what was in place. I did want to mention Robert, cause like you're talking about Walter Nolan and we, it's been a theme all through these previews is like investment doesn't mean return. Darius Robinson basically had no rookie season. You know, they lost him right around this time last year to a calf injury. He comes back in November and was like on the field, but for who, for what?

1:22:47Derrik Klassen: And it sucks for him. And I hope that year two is much better for him, but I think that's worth keeping in the back of your mind. When you talk about a guy like Walter Nolan too, where early season training camp development is so big for these types of guys. I hope it doesn't derail Nolan the way that it did Robinson, because that's just, that's the unfortunate shit that happens in football where you can lay your best plan in April and the realities of the sports screw it up by August, but you can't knock them for trying, man. They, they spent the resources to make this front at least viable.

1:23:21Robert Mays: The hope is by getting Jordan Burch in the third round, You double down a little bit. And even if no one can't be good from the beginning, what if you get something out of Birch early on? So the fact that they threw like six bodies at this, you'd hope that at the end of it, you have three or four workable guys that you just didn't have last year, no matter how far the draft those guys happened to come from. I remember I've told the story before just very quickly, but I remember talking to Calais Campbell about kind of the twilight of his career and how he would think about his career in the NFL and you know what he wanted to do in his last couple seasons in the NFL his legacy and going to the hall of fame we had that conversation in 2019 it was literally a different world at the time six years ago we were talking about this about him being like oh you know I feel like I'm at the end I'm the elder statesman in the group it's we are six years later and he is not only still playing in the NFL but still playing at like a reasonably high level in the NFL Well, him going back to the Cardinals is truly like one of my favorite stories in terms of player movement in the entire offseason.

1:24:27Robert Mays: My swing point for the Cardinals, Derek, we alluded to this when we did the quarterback at a crossroads show that we had earlier this summer. It's Kyler Murray, like Kyler Murray and what they get out of Kyler Murray. We probably don't talk about this enough when it comes to the fate of the Cardinals. And the issue with Kyler is that his peaks are very, very good, but the valleys are very bad. And that's still the case. Last year, Kyler had five games with an EPA per drop back of 0.24 or better. That's essentially Josh Allen over the course of the year. He also had five games with an EPA per drop back of negative 0.15 or worse.

1:25:05Robert Mays: That's Daniel Jones. So five games a year, you're getting Josh Allen from a production standpoint, and five games a year, you're getting Daniel Jones. And how that ratio ends up shaking out, I know it's a real simple framing, But I think that's going to go a long way in dictating what the Cardinal season ultimately looks like.

1:25:23Dave Helman: It's it's incredibly like the more. I think we all want quarterbacks with peaks and Kyler Murray very much has that. But I do think there is something to like all of the top eight guys also don't really have valleys anymore like that. That's kind of the thing that's kind of always been the issue. Yeah, like maybe everyone's going to have like a game or two, right? Like during the course of the season. but it's like a consistent theme with Kyler Murray where you go into a week being like is he gonna do it this week is he gonna do that again and I think the difference to me between like you know we kind of talked about on the NFC North show that Jordan Love can be a little bit up and down week to week and I believe that a little bit less I think sometimes Jordan Love just has like some throws that he misses and that's kind of it with Kyler Murray I think the reason that there is like legitimate and consistent inconsistency is that he has actual limitations Like Jordan Love doesn't really have limitations.

1:26:11Dave Helman: He just stuff up. Sometimes Tyler Murray can't throw the middle of the field as well as some other guys. He can get a little bit crowded in the pocket because he's a little bit shorter. Sometimes touch can be a little bit of an issue for him just getting the ball up and over like he's just has these limitations. And when defenses really call it the right way and can really get to him, you start to see it. And so I think that's why you get these games where and we've talked about it before in the red zone because he's a little smaller. I think it's harder for him to see. It's harder to make some of these throws that can really stall out in offense a little bit.

1:26:42Dave Helman: And it can be the difference from we put up 21 or we put up nine or 12 or 13 or whatever it is, something like that. And so I think him ironing out some of those things this year and year three of the system, I think, is kind of necessary at this stage.

1:26:57Robert Mays: We talked about this when we did the show this summer, Derek, but I think a couple of different things to consider in what the layers of this just schematically might look like that we haven't seen over the last couple of years. I would not be surprised if they ran him more in order to really tap into what he can give you. And I think that they haven't really done that because he's been hurt. Obviously, the first year back, they didn't want to do that at all because he's coming back from an injury. And I think in year two, they also were just a little bit worried about what that's meant for his long-term health when he's run the ball a lot.

1:27:29Robert Mays: He's just a smaller player. And so are you willing to run him as much as you're willing to run Jalen Hurts or Lamar Jackson? I think it's a fair concern. I also think that you're defanging your offense by not using him in those situations because that adds a layer to what you can do and it adds a layer to the run game. And so I feel like that is something that we're going to hopefully see a little bit more often this year.

1:27:53Derrik Klassen: That is, I understand the concerns. Like I understand Kyler Murray's size, but if you're not willing to use his athleticism, then he wasn't worth the number one overall pick. And like you got to and obviously this regime didn't draft him, but like you got to make your peace with that because that is what separates him. That's what makes him a quarterback you can win with. And that could be a hard needle to thread, obviously. And you don't want your quarterback to get hurt, but you got to find a way because if you're not taking advantage of that, then I don't think you're getting the most out of the guy.

1:28:28Robert Mays: So let's talk about what's keeping us up at night, Derek, because I do think that that actually ties into what we could potentially get out of Kyler Murray this year. So when you're thinking about what's keeping you up at night with the Cardinals, where do you land?

1:28:40Dave Helman: For me, it's just the offensive line is not good enough. And they lost the guy who was responsible for making it probably look better than it should have been last year. And Clayton Adams, who was their run game coordinator. So like this was an offense last year. And we talked about this a couple of times during the season and probably once or twice during the offseason. when they could chalkboard people like when they could really scheme it up with some of their pin pull stuff and and really align it that way some of their quarterback run stuff they were a really really good rushing offense like when they felt like they weren't being physically dominated by the other team they could go for like 200 in a game they were that style of rushing offense the moment you could punch them in the face a little bit they just didn't have the guys like they just did not have the guys like even even for what paris johnson can be as a pass protector he's not like a move guys around in the run game type of guy to me and like none of the the other really interior players prove that to me and so if i'm going to be iffy about what the offensive line talent is and they didn't add anyone like the only change they're making is inserting isaiah adams as a full-time starter now and they've now lost their run game coordinator that did all the cool stuff it's a little bit hard for me to get excited about some of this i will say i do think

1:29:47Robert Mays: there is a path to the offensive line being better than it was last year i still think that paris Johnson in year three can take a significant step forward. And I think they do as well. I think like the Paris Johnson breakout is potentially on the table this year. Jonah Williams for them played six games last season. Jonah Williams isn't a star, but he's better than what they were getting from that right tackle spot last year. And you'd hope that in year two, you can get a little bit more out of Isaiah Adams. Like if you told me at the end of this year that the talent level on the Cardinals defense was a significant step up by the end of 2025 compared to what it was in 2024, I would believe that.

1:30:20Robert Mays: Like, I do think that across the board, they can get better offensive line play than they did for a majority of the 2024 season.

1:30:29Dave Helman: I think significant is where I start to get a little bit. It's probably

1:30:32Robert Mays: based on what you get out of Paris Johnson and Isaiah Adams. Like if those guys don't take a step forward, then I do think that you're in a bad spot.

1:30:39Dave Helman: And I think even the problem with that to me is like, I do think Paris Johnson can take a leap. But again, in my mind, I think of him as like, a Jake Matthews ish left tackle where he's a really good mover, exceptional pass protector. Sometimes you can just get into his chest and move him a little bit. And I think even in the ideal world, like that could be an issue for their run game, particularly.

1:30:58Derrik Klassen: I got really excited about Jonah Williams last year. And so maybe I'm just hesitant. I don't want to get hurt again, but I, it would be enormous if he, if you got more out, I mean, hopefully a lot more, obviously, like you said, he missed more than half the season. Hopefully that goes better than it did last year. I think that's about floor setting or a tackle, right?

1:31:16Robert Mays: Like having Jonah Williams is a floor setting type thing that they did not have last year. So my, what I'm watching over the first month of the season is kind of a pivot off of this. And it's, I want to know without adding any players to the offense, what is going to be different? How is this going to feel different? How is this going to feel easier for the players on this offense? I do think that we're going to see the players moved around the formation much more than we did last year. I do think we're going to see opportunities schemed up for Marvin Harrison in ways we did not last year. He was used as like a true isolated X vertical receiver in this offense last season.

1:31:52Robert Mays: I don't think that's where he's best. And this is a quiet one, but you and I have talked about this, Derek, not having Zay Jones last year, I do think affects the way that you can use Marvin Harrison. When we talk about that idea of like a sacrificial X player, where you're just tossing a guy out there and that allows some of your better players to move around a bit. I do think Zay Jones can do that for this team. So not adding an interior player, not adding another pass catcher, especially a field stretching one. I feel like I want to say it was a mistake. I don't think they went into the offseason not wanting to do either of those.

1:32:24Robert Mays: I think the way things shook out, they just didn't have an opportunity for it. They weren't going to stretch for that type of player in the third round rather than taking Jordan Birch, who they really liked. But I do think with the guys they have, they can move Martin Harrison around a little bit more than they did last year. So I think doing a little bit more of that, getting a little bit more pop in the run game, like Trey Benson for his limitations still has more juice than James Connor does. So if you can have three, four more 40 yard runs this year, because Trey Benson is more a part of the offense, these are small things.

1:32:55Robert Mays: But I think when you have all the same players, you have to seek out little small things on the margins that are going to make it feel different. And that's what I'm watching the first month of the season is what those things actually

1:33:05Dave Helman: are within this offense to me it's definitely the can we do something with with Marvin Harrison Jr. getting him to move around because again the Zay Jones point is a good one like I don't love Zay Jones but by the rules of the game somebody has to stand on the line of scrimmage and when it had to be Marvin Harrison Jr. every play I just didn't love that like and you couldn't have made it like last year I don't think you wanted to do that with Michael Wilson because even though like he can do it you probably want him to be like your power slot type and then like what they were going to put Greg Dorch on the line of scrimmage come on get out of here like they just didn't have the guys to do it and so if Zay Jones can you know kind of like we joked about earlier in the show if he can literally just be what Demarcus Robinson was for the Rams last year and like just like line up there and and not be a problem and have at least some modicum of like maybe we target this guy in a way that other guys weren't last year and then move Marvin Harrison Jr.

1:33:55Dave Helman: around that's enough I also just think like Harrison Jr. is going to play better this year you know I don't think he's necessarily going to be like a 1500 yard, like, Oh my God, all pro receiver. But I do think that we set the bar insanely high for what he was as a rookie. He was still a good rookie. And I think even, even with all that happening, we've like set the bar too low now. Like I think he's still a really good player.

1:34:16Derrik Klassen: I was going to say it has serious potential to bite you in the ass, but as far as developmental plans go, like if you're not going to do a lot of adding in the off season, hoping that the receiver you took fourth overall and the running back who was the second back off the board in his draft class, 66th overall, hoping that those two guys haven't reached their ceiling is that's not crazy. Like that is a completely reasonable hope.

1:34:43Robert Mays: And I feel like with Marvin Harrison, the, one of their charges to him this off season was, can you just be more physical at the catch point? And we saw what he did to his body this off season hopes of doing that. I would rather they just not ask him to be physical at the catch point quite as often in the way that he's used within the offense. But if some of those 50, 50 balls can go the Cardinals way in a way that they didn't last year, I think that also helps as we think about how this can feel a little bit different. The other important thing to mention here, we, I don't think we've really mentioned his name when it comes to this season.

1:35:13Robert Mays: Trey McBride is the focal point of this passing game. Trey McBride will continue to be the focal point of this passing game as long as he is healthy. And I think why that it's important is you don't need Marvin Harrison to be like an all pro player for this thing to all come together. You just need him to be slightly more dynamic and used in a more diverse way than he was last year. If this thing is still going to go as Trey McBride goes. And I do think that is the plan.

1:35:39Derrik Klassen: Surely we can scheme up some red zone looks for my guy, Trey, while we're at it.

1:35:43Robert Mays: I unfortunately can get it to him. I have attached my fate to Trey McBride and fantasy football this year. And so I will be living and dying with the Trey McBride red zone opportunities for the entire season.

1:35:54Derrik Klassen: You can't do worse than not scoring your first touchdown until December. That was my thought. You could.

1:36:02Robert Mays: What is success, Dave, for the 2025 Cardinals?

1:36:07Derrik Klassen: I was going to try to do my wimpy thing and hold them to a very normal standard, but I think we talked about it and I think y 'all are right. I mean, it's year three. There's been good progress every year. It's a wide open division. They were in the lead of this division late last year before they completely wet themselves. Make the playoffs. Make the playoffs. Don't lose five out of your final seven games. Don't average 11 points per game against Seattle and the Rams at the end of the season and just go out with a whimper like slightly better performance down the home stretch. would have gotten you into the playoffs last year.

1:36:46Derrik Klassen: So just keep it up. Just finish. That's football coaches love to say that. Finish, finish and make the postseason. I don't think it's a completely crazy expectation. Make the wild card. Yeah, just make the wild card.

1:37:01Dave Helman: Of putting like every team in the playoffs, like the Cardinals kind of have to make the playoffs. So like it's year three. I think even removing like whatever you think about this roster, like year three for any regime is like you got to do it. Like you got to get in. And last year, like you said, by DVOA, like they were what, 12th? Like that is by the way that we do by having 14 playoff spots. That is effectively a playoff quality team. And so if we accept that, if we expect the offense to be around that range again, and the defense has at least like eight NFL players starting instead of like three or four, that should be enough to finish things and actually get you there in December.

1:37:35Robert Mays: I do think that this team has the makings of like two top 12 units. Like I would not be surprised if it shook out that way. And if it did, they should be a playoff team. And I think that's also the way that they're looking at it. One of the, if you're thinking about just like the vision for the franchise this year, the idea of, well, if we didn't add anybody on offense, how are we going to be better? I think part of the answer to that is our defense is significantly better, right? And if we can make that the combination where we're like top tennis units on both sides of the ball, I think that is a defined win for the Cardinals.

1:38:03Robert Mays: We're going to take one more quick break, and then we're going to come back and wrap things up with the San Francisco 49ers.

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1:43:22Robert Mays: The San Francisco 49ers offseason in 60 seconds. Brought back Robert Sala as the defensive coordinator. Promoted Clay Kubiak to the offensive coordinator. Extended Brock Purdy, five years,$265 million,$180 million guaranteed. That's a lot of Toyotas. George Kittle, four years,$76 million,$35 million guaranteed. Fred Warner three years 63 million 56 guaranteed traded for Bryce Huff, Brian Robinson, and sky more deals for MVS. I think that happened today. Luke Farrell, Mack Jones, Demarcus Robinson, and Kyle use check in the draft edge. Michael Williams, 11th overall defense tackle, Alfred Collins, second overall linebacker, Nick Martin, third round, 75th overall cornerback Upton stout third round, a hundredth overall CJ West defensive tackle in the fourth round lost.

1:44:03Robert Mays: Debo Samuel, Aaron banks, Travarius war, Javon Hargrave, Jalen Moore, Telenohu Fongar, Dre Greenlaw, Jordan Mason, Leonard Floyd, Malik Collins. Derek, what are you excited to watch with the 2025 San Francisco 49ers?

1:44:19Dave Helman: I mean, I think for as long as Kyle Shanahan has been there, the answer has always been some version of like, what's Kyle Shanahan going to do? And my version of that now is like, how can we marry what we were in like 2022 and 2023 when we really had like the best versions of CMC? We could get into more gun. We could check the ball down to him. We could put him out in the slot and like do all these option routes. Like they could be a little bit more of a dink and dunk, like drop back passing offense than they ever were with like Jimmy Garoppolo. How can we marry that with what we got out of some development from Brock Purdy last year where he was like, I don't need to do the check down, you know, just kind of throw five, six yards at a time.

1:44:54Dave Helman: Like I can really unleash it as a drop back passer, throw into more of these tight windows, 20 yards down the field, really push the ball on like these 15 yard outs and stuff. How do we marry those two worlds and what is the quality of that look like? You know, last year for all of what they were, they were still like the ninth best offense in the NFL. If marrying that a little bit and getting healthy CMC means they can be a top three, four unit again. I'm really, really excited to see how that might come together.

1:45:18Robert Mays: I'm curious what like the coverage menu looks like against this team compared to what it looked like last year without McCaffrey, because they had a lot more split safety that they went against last year and they played against a ton more man coverage than they played against last year. I don't think that's all CMC, but I do think that's some CMC. So what how we end up shaking out between the two poles of them getting more cover three and more single high and more base defense than almost any team in the league in 2023 to them actually seeing cover three at a below average rate in 2024. How does Christian McCaffrey change that math for this team and what sort of advantages that create for Brock Purdy?

1:45:55Robert Mays: I am very curious to see what that ultimately looks like. Dave you had a similar answer to this I think that you also just want to see what this offense looks like with McCaffrey back and you know hopefully it was just a little bit better health

1:46:06Derrik Klassen: across the board it's funny I just mine is so much I'm so macro like y 'all just went so granular and I'm so intrigued by the macro with the San Francisco 49ers because I love a team that's at a crossroads and that's where I feel like this this team is like it's it's not right to say that it's a new era of 49ers football but I think we're watching like a software patch right now like you go to bed and wake up with a new cell phone that's that's kind of what I feel like the 49ers are right now I like I mean I don't you don't need to relist all the players they lost Robert but a significant amount of the guys that we associated with the Niners over the last three or four years, departed in one off season.

1:46:54Derrik Klassen: And now you're starting down a road with an expensive quarterback. That was always the thing with the Niners. We have the Avengers because we're not paying our quarterback anything. And they got away with it for a long time. Not that Purdy's crippling their cap right now, but it's a different build and a different type of way to build your team. They're in transition and yet they are also still very, very talented. Like, I think this is still an incredibly good roster, even if they're not used to having this many question marks like that. It feels like the Niners, like you look around the league and everybody's like, yeah, welcome to life in the actual NFL.

1:47:31Derrik Klassen: You don't actually get to have a badass at 19 positions. That's not how it works. And I feel like the Niners are about to be coping with that. And it's it's fun to see how they're going to do. I think it's very interesting.

1:47:43Robert Mays: And Derek brought this up earlier today, and I think that's actually the right comparison. It kind of feels like where the Bengals were last year. And I do think that this team is willing to spend much more money than the Bengals are. And over the next couple of years, they will. But we had to pay the quarterback. We've had to pay everybody on the offense. Essentially, we have a highly paid left tackle. We have a highly paid tight end. We have a highly paid running back. And now we have one piece that's really expensive on defense, but we're going with a cheap youth movement otherwise because of how much money we've had to spend on the offense.

1:48:15Robert Mays: that is kind of what this feels like. I think the results could be better than what they were for the Bengals last year. But when you look at the actual structures of the roster, there are actually some similarities here.

1:48:27Dave Helman: There really are a lot of similarities. And like, I, you know, the only difference is the, the Niners have two defenders that I really feel confident about. Whereas the Bengals only really had one, but like, it's still, it's a lot of the same build. I mean,

1:48:39Robert Mays: maybe three, right? Like Lenore Warner.

1:48:43Dave Helman: Lenore is solid. I just like,

1:48:44Robert Mays: Lenore is good.

1:48:45Dave Helman: Yeah. I was thinking like Warner and both are just like sight unseen. That guy's going to be. Yes. Yeah.

1:48:50Robert Mays: But I did. Maybe there's like one or two more proven commodities on this Niners defense, but I think broadly it actually is a pretty good comparison to make. Let's talk about these swing points for the 2025 Niners. What do you got for me, David?

1:49:07Derrik Klassen: I don't know if you guys have noticed the Niners have been dramatic once again during training camp. Like that just seems to be a theme. This time it's not their fault at least. It's not as much their fault. I mean, they are in a standoff with Jawan Jennings. So like, there's still some shenanigans going on, but I'm mainly, I'm curious to see how much better the 49ers can be as the season goes along, because it does seem like they're going to get some reinforcements. Brandon Ayuk obviously being the biggest one among them. Malik Mustafa should be coming back from an injury at some point during the season.

1:49:48Derrik Klassen: Demarcus Robinson is going to be suspended for the first three weeks of the season. So there are guys that will make their way back to the Niners roster. Mustafa and Ayuk are the ones that I have circled particularly. I'm curious to see how good those guys can be. I mean, it's dangerous to count on guys coming off of injury, dropping into the lineup and being what you remember, but how much better do you feel about this team with a close to 100 % Brandon Iuke joining the roster in late October, early November? I mean, these are the types of things that could really spur a second half run. So if I'm a Niners fan looking for optimism, it's that maybe this team is a lot better in the second half of the season than it looks right here at roster cuts.

1:50:35Dave Helman: And that's probably for two reasons, right? Like all the injury stuff, obviously but then we'll talk about the young defense a little bit more but like we probably if things go right would expect the younger defense to be better in the second half than the first half so if you have that on top of all these guys who are coming back it's like okay we might think the Niners we might do like a uh it's so over we're so back with the Niners by like week five and by the time we get to week 12 we're like they're back maybe they're gonna go to the NFC championship again um so so that's definitely something I'd be keeping an eye on we're gonna

1:51:04Robert Mays: talk about the first month of the year on offense a little bit later in the show but my swing point here is what the early season and just the season overall looks like for the young defense and the young defensive front specifically. If you look at the Niners too deep right now, and I'm, I think that there's six guys that are on there too deep that are rookie players at this point. And I think at least five, probably six, if you throw Nick Martin in there as their third linebacker are going to get significant run on this team, they play nickel like 90 % of the time. So maybe Martin doesn't play without any sort of injury, but CJ West, Alfred Collins, Michael Williams.

1:51:36Robert Mays: Marquis Siegel is slated to be the starter for them at free safety, jumping Jair Brown, who's been there for the last couple of years. We talked about that with Matt Barrows a couple of weeks ago when we did the training camp notebook. I was shocked to hear that. And Upton Stout is probably going to be the starting nickel on this team. So we're talking about five guys who are going to be important pieces of this defense that are rookies, including three in like their six or seven man defensive line rotation. That's enough of a swing point for me, like that's enough unproven talent to kind of think this is where this year is going to pivot for the Niners.

1:52:10Robert Mays: Derek, like I believe in just the DNA of this defense and what it's been under Robert Sala over the last few years, but he's going to have to work a little bit of magic with this group to get them back to feeling like a Niners defense that we're used to seeing. Yeah.

1:52:24Dave Helman: Like they need, they need at least half of them to be like useful players. Like I think martin will see again because he's not even in the starting lineup but like one of these dbs needs to be some degree of a difference maker um michael williams i have a lot of faith in what he is as a player so i hope that that works out i'm really looking at the two defensive tackles to me i think if alfred collins can be the player that they want him to be that's the one that makes the difference to me because like cj west is a little bit more of a small kind of penetrating player and i think that's already the kind of other defensive tackles that they have whereas collins to me at his best is a little bit more of a just sit there be a space eater and so if that works out for them if that's the player that hits I think it can start to make this whole thing work together but

1:53:07Robert Mays: again we'll see what is keeping you up at night Derek about the San Francisco 49ers in 2025

1:53:17Dave Helman: speaking of that defense uh the the best players are awesome like Nick Bosa's incredible Fred Warner's incredible I think we like you know guys like uh Lenore the weak points in the defense might kill them again if some of these rookies don't work out like if neither of the two defensive tackles hit then you have this room of defensive tackles who are like Jordy and Jordan Elliott and Kalia Davis to me are like if they're your third defensive tackle coming off the bench to be a little bit of like penetrating force that's good that's not what they are they're they're your starters and so that to me is a little bit of an issue um Jason Pinnock starting at safety in the meantime while Mustafa is not out there I think is a little bit of a concern to me and then like Like, I know they seem to have some degree of faith in Upton Stout, but we just don't know.

1:53:57Dave Helman: Like, he's a rookie. Like, we just don't know. Same thing with Siegel. So there's just a chance that even though they have these two all pro level players in Nick Bosa and Fred Warner, they might also have two or three spots that are like, oh, my God, this is a huge, huge issue. And I'm just a little bit worried that we're going to get there.

1:54:14Robert Mays: It's totally reasonable. I like I don't even know what to say to that. It's just like I have no cope whatsoever. Like, there's a chance that there's just two or three like nightmarish spots on this defense.

1:54:23Derrik Klassen: I hadn't thought about this until just now, but how do you think Bosa and Warner cope with the potential pitfalls of that after several years of this just well-oiled machine full of, you know, by the time they got to that Super Bowl a couple years ago, you know, those guys can like read each other's minds. And that feels like it could be a huge adjustment for guys of that caliber playing with guys who are figuring out how to play in the NFL.

1:54:51Dave Helman: It might, but I think Warner is just like a madman. Like, I think almost regardless of who or what you put around him, he is going to be on 110 all of the time. And so he might get frustrated and maybe he'll.

1:55:05Derrik Klassen: To be clear, I'm not worried about Fred Warner, like what he's doing. I'm worried about Fred Warner being perpetually furious at a bunch of rookies. That might just make him play faster. So I'm OK with that if that's where we arrive.

1:55:19Robert Mays: Let's go to the other side of the ball with what's keeping me up the offensive line. And just this idea that the past protection isn't going to be good enough when they get to January. That's always keeping me up with this team based on the way that they treat this position group. I'm even a little bit more worried about it now than I have been over the last couple of years, because there's been attrition talent wise among this group. And I don't think Aaron Banks is a perfect player by any stretch. But the fact that they moved on from Aaron Banks, it's kind of like, all right, Ben Bartsch, you're up now.

1:55:47Robert Mays: Like that is how this team approaches these positions. And you're the best lineman that you have outside of Trent Williams, who is now creeping closer and closer to 40 every year. And I worry about him staying healthy is Donna McPoony. Who's coming into this season hurt after looking really good last year as a rookie. So I think the baseline for this offensive line is concerning, let alone if they get dinged up a little bit and this group and what they've always said about it is we would rather have pass catchers and weapons, we can scheme around the offensive line. That is often true for 17, even 18, sometimes 19 games a year.

1:56:25Robert Mays: And then they get into the playoffs and a defensive coordinator like Spags is able to pick on this team and pass protection because of the way that they're constructed. And the Niners finished 31st in the NFL last year per next gen and the percentage of unblocked pressures that they allowed. Like teams have been able to get after them in this way. And the Texans were 32nd and the Texans, again, a very similar past protection rules based on the history with Bobby Sloick that the Niners do. And so the fact that now we're combining a world where teams are able to manipulate this team a little bit in protection and you don't feel good about the individual talent of those guys, especially if you're going to be living in more of a drop back world moving forward, considering some of the evolution we've seen from this team.

1:57:09Robert Mays: It just makes me a little bit uneasy, Derek, that the players they have up front aren't going to be good enough in the biggest games of the year. Like, I think they might be good enough for this team to win 11 games in the NFC West. But if your aspirations are bigger than that, I think that's where I start to get a little bit concerned.

1:57:25Dave Helman: Yeah, I think Kyle Shanahan can put it together with just about anybody for, you know, 17 weeks. It's a matter of like when you get to the playoff, like we and we've even seen in theory, better offensive lines get dismantled in that way. Like what Houston did to the Chargers who had two like awesome, awesome young tackles. this San Francisco line is a lot worse than that and so I think that's what you always have to be worried about and like I think for probably the past three years this has been an offensive line where it's like I would like to see a little bit more but you have Kyle Shanahan and the skill players are all good enough that maybe it's not going to matter I think with some of the skill players being banged up and leaving and it being a different unit and Trent Williams is 37 years old and coming off of an injury and then to me three of the other five starters are below average players like I think Dominic Poonie is like a nice player for them but the other guys to me just don't really move the needle and so if Trent Williams takes 10 15 of a step back which I think he already did a little bit last year even when he was healthy you just start to get into like pretty dangerous territory for what this thing might look like when when you really need it

1:58:25Robert Mays: let's talk about what we're watching the first month of the season Dave with the San Francisco 49ers we alluded to this a little bit earlier I was gonna say we we talked about guys coming back

1:58:35Derrik Klassen: from injury and that's mainly the high level guys but all the way down Kyle Shanahan's got his work cut out from him from the forum from the sounds of it like it sounds like he's going to be doing quite a juggling act in the first four weeks of the season just because they don't have the bodies guys I you can Robinson are unavailable we'll see what happens with Juwan Jennings there was a report over the weekend that if this contract situation and his calf injury doesn't get resolved they could still send him to IR. I don't know if that's going to happen, but like, we don't know what's up with Juwan Jennings.

1:59:10Derrik Klassen: Jacob Cowling is down with a hamstring injury. The rookie Jordan Watkins has a high ankle sprain and the Niners cut Robbie chosen and Russell gauge. I would guess one of those guys makes their way back to the roster eventually, but Ricky Pierce all is it. As far as like receivers that get you excited for the first, at least three or four weeks of the season. Now I'm not particularly worried about it because you still have CMC. They just traded for Brian Robinson, Jr. George Kittle, Kyle use check. They signed Luke Farrell in the off season. So you probably do a little more 12 personnel than what we're used to from the 49ers.

1:59:50Derrik Klassen: Like there's ways you can work your, you can work around this. And Kyle Shanahan is a good enough coach to do it. But I just think the Niners offense might look pretty goofy for the first three or four weeks of the season. mbs is here now but like how much does that matter like they literally just need that happen while we've did that happen while we've been recording it was i think it was this morning right before

2:00:11Dave Helman: yeah okay all right uh they just need bodies like that that's where we're at right now with the niners receiving core and that's kind of that's kind of why like ricky the ricky pierce all thing and then the rest of the receivers to me are like two separate issues like at this point you're right like for as much as i joke about the mbs thing they do just need bodies like anybody who can play for them and so it kind of makes sense from that front and also they kind of just need guys who can stretch the field so pierce all doesn't have to do just that um but then i think there's also like the ricky pierce all question and that's really what i'm watching is like is he a guy who can go from i think we all liked what he could be at the end of last year um but the matter is is like okay is he a b minus like this is a fun wide receiver too or is this like a guy that we can actually feed and get him like 11 1200 yards like can he be can he be calvin ridley which like is not like the sexiest receiver in the league, but that's a guy who pretty consistently gets a thousand yards.

2:01:02Dave Helman: Can he be like that caliber of player over the course of like 17 games?

2:01:07Robert Mays: Stylistically, he's very, very different than a player like that. He's different.

2:01:10Dave Helman: I just mean like that tier of receiver where it's like he ideally, do you want to feed him that much? I don't know, but he can get you 1100 yards if you need him to.

2:01:18Robert Mays: I just think that Juwan Jennings is so quietly important to all of us because having Juwan Jennings just makes Ricky Pierce all make so much more sense in a world where you're just biding your time until Brandon I you comes back.

2:01:29Derrik Klassen: I don't think it's quiet. Yeah. I like if you want, if this Juwan Jennings thing lingers, I think that's a huge deal. And as much as I love I you, and I hope he's awesome when he gets back, certainly not counting on that the way the last year and a half have gone over like with all of that. So yeah, they, I don't know what they, what they got to do if they don't want to pay Juwan Jennings, they got to figure out another way to get him back to the roster. That feels very, very important. Hear me out. Third downs,

2:01:59Robert Mays: 22 personnel, use check is in the backfield and we have McCaffrey out playing receiver. Wait, Robert, you know what? Sure.

2:02:08Derrik Klassen: We didn't even talk about this before the show, but in my notes, I have they ran 50 snaps of 22 last year. So like it ain't uncharted territory for them. Like let's get weird. Let's run some 22 personnel.

2:02:21Robert Mays: That's what we need from Christian McCaffrey. We need 100 % of the snaps from him after dealing with the injury all of last season. What is success, Dave, for the 2025 San Francisco 49ers?

2:02:34Derrik Klassen: I love this. And it goes back to what I said. Like the signs are there that tell you the San Francisco 49ers are in a little bit of a reset. Like that's what the expenditures and the roster moves would have you believe. But guys, there's six first team all pros expected to start for them week one. Still, after all of this, they have that much talent. And that's without mentioning the$260 million quarterback. And that's without mentioning the head coach who has spent most of the last decade being lauded as the best in the NFL, or at least one of them. Rightly so, in my opinion, I love Kyle Shanahan, but it feels disingenuous to just be like, oh, poor 49ers.

2:03:21Derrik Klassen: They're not a Super Bowl team anymore. What could we possibly expect from them? No, there's plenty of stuff here working for San Francisco, assuming relative good health. And so despite the fact that they're in a little bit of a step back, I think I still have pretty high expectations for them. They don't play a hard schedule. I've talked about that over the course of the summer. It's remarkably easy because they finished fourth last year. This team should be able to make the playoffs and make noise once they get there. Like we've seen them do that before, by the way, I think the last few years make everybody think of the Niners as this like inescapable juggernaut.

2:03:58Derrik Klassen: We've seen San Francisco make the playoffs as a wild card and get to the NFC title game. Like this is a very good, very experienced team, even still. And so at the very least, I want to see them in the divisional round, or I can't call this season a success, not with this much talent. And by the way, a lot of that talent is closer to the end of their career than the beginning. like we don't have a lot of time here we need to be successful yeah for me it's I will give any

2:04:24Dave Helman: coach and pretty much any team one year where you like at a given time like one year where this just things don't go your way you only win seven eight games whatever six games you don't make the playoffs that's all fine we've seen it from Kyle Shanahan before you don't really get to it like once you get to that's where it's like even for as good as the coaches I think you might be that's where I'm gonna probably start to question some things so they have to make it back somehow if that only means 10 wins and you get the seventh seed that's fine that's at least some proof of concept that the offense is great again and the defense gets back to somewhere but you you got to get back in one way or another

2:04:58Robert Mays: That's kind of where I am as well. I think that they need to make the playoffs based on just the talent this team has on the roster. I think the heights of that success in the playoffs, I'm still a little bit worried about what this defense is going to be at the biggest moments of the season. So them just like winning double digit games and making the playoffs because of the questions that I have about the defense. That's enough for me to consider this a success for the Niners. All right. That is all we've got for today. We will be back tomorrow with our last division preview talking about the AFC North.

2:05:29Robert Mays: For now, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

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