2026 AFC North preview

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1:41One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in, or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Division previews roll on today. The AFC North. A lot of fun stuff to dig into.

2:19Me, Dave, and Derek, not wasting any time. Let's get to it. The AFC North preview right now.

2:34The division previews rolling on today. We have the AFC North coming your guys way today. Like we did with the AFC West yesterday, we were doing this in order of division odds. So if you were upset with the order we were hitting these teams, that is the reason, that is the explanation. It makes sense for this one, you know? Like, we can't, we don't want to start with it. I'm just trying to be consistent. We don't want to start with the Steelers. I'm sorry. Like, sorry, Steelers fans. We don't want to start with the Steelers. So we have sent each other our answers for this before we started recording.

3:08My favorite part about the entire layout of the AFC North preview is that for what a success for some of the teams, it's very practical. and for the Steelers every single one of our answers is just riddled with existential like looming dread which I think just says so much about the current state of the Pittsburgh Steelers if your team evokes Sisyphus as a mental image yeah we'll get into it later we'll talk we will we will get to the Steelers but we are starting with the Baltimore Ravens our preview for the 2026 Baltimore Ravens their offseason in 60 seconds hire Jesse Minter is the head coach Declan Doyle is the offensive coordinator Anthony Weaver is the defensive coordinator signed John Simpson, Trey Hendrickson, Calais Campbell, Jalen Hawkins, and later Ethan Posich in free agency.

3:50Lost Tyler Linderbaum, Isaiah Likely, Charlie Kohler, Patrick Ricard, Alohi Gilman. In the draft, Vega Ioana in round one, Zion Young in round two, Jacoby Lane in round three. For each team, we're going to kick things off with what we are most excited about as it relates to this team heading into 2026. Derek what are you most excited about for the 2026 Baltimore Ravens this team still has Lamar Jackson and Derek Henry it's really as simple as that to me like I I remember when they signed Derek Henry initially that I was like over the moon excited about how cool this could be and we've seen for a couple of years that like when it is working it is the coolest and most effective offense in the entire league and obviously there were a couple of reasons some of that fell away last year, some offensive line issues.

4:39Maybe they were, you know, Lamar Jackson himself was a little bit banged up. He even talked about today, you know, they were asking, why didn't you run as much? He's like, well, I was hurt. I don't know what to tell you. So I think if he's healthier, Derek Henry, I believe will be able to do this until he's 40. Like I just, as so long as those two are on the field together, this is going to be the offense that I want to watch every single week. Building on that too, last year was an unfortunate reminder of football mortality. just because Lamar Jackson has been at these dizzying heights for, I mean, really most of his career, but definitely the last two years before 2025.

5:12And watching him struggle and also not be mobile and run as little as he has in his NFL career and just not look like the Lamar Jackson we've gotten used to. I hope his decline is a long, long ways off, but it reminded me, of course, We still want to hold him to the standard of succeeding in the playoffs. And he wants to bring Baltimore a championship. But it's a reminder to enjoy these moments. And I know we joke all the time that Derrick Henry will never age, but he will eventually. I don't think he can do this forever. I don't think he can do it forever. I hope he can, but he would be the first one.

5:51And so I'm trying to be in the moment with Lamar and Derrick Henry this year. And I hope they're at their peak power. and I just want to enjoy it. I want to enjoy what I think will be a better Baltimore offense. For all the categories we're hitting, I don't think we have space for this. And so I wanted to just sit here with it for a second while we're talking about the offense. We did not talk about Declan Doyle in the new play caller show, Derek. We just ran out of time. And so as you think about Declan Doyle coming over from Chicago, and I know that he spent time with Sean Payton previously, but I think if you're, I'll bet you a lot of money that if we're looking at the offense, the Ravens most resemble this year, it will look most like the Chicago Bears offense from last year, not whatever Declan Doyle was doing in New Orleans and Denver with Sean Payton.

6:35So as you think about Lamar Jackson at this stage in his career, Derek, playing in a system with those ideas that Declan Doyle is likely bringing over from Chicago, what do you think about that marriage? And what do you think this is going to look like? I mean, I think it's going to be pretty good because, you know, I think we've talked about this a little bit at different points, you know, beforehand, but they're probably going to be a lot more under center. And Lamar Jackson is not someone who's done that a ton in his NFL career, but when he's done it, he's been excellent. Like he has 0.40 EPA per drop back under center since entering the league, which is the best by a mile.

7:12And again, I think there's some amount of like the less you do a thing, you kind of have room to be more efficient at it, but he has been incredible at it. And this is something that going all the way back to college, like he actually was a guy who came out of college with some under center experience. Like this is not a thing that was ever uncomfortable for him. And he's always been really good at, I think, throwing the middle of the field, anticipating he can layer touch to that layer of the field. And, you know, I was even watching some of the games from last year, some of the examples where they did go under center.

7:38And he's soon as he hits the top of the drop back, he's just chucking that deep over route. Like he is very comfortable doing a lot of that stuff. And so I think the question more is like, how do the other pieces of the personnel kind of layer into that? One of them is like obviously coming from the Ben Johnson offense. offense. They didn't necessarily have a fullback, but they put Durham Smythe in the backfield on about 46 runs last year. Well, he's on the Ravens roster now. So it's pretty easy to see how that would pace over into this roster. So I just think that this is a marriage that is going to work.

8:08And obviously, they're not as talented at some of the skill positions. And we'll talk about that. But I just have so much faith that Lamar is always able to iterate and do the next thing. All these quarterbacks that we're talking about stepping into a more under center world this year, Jaden Daniels, Jalen Hurts, Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, they all come from a place where it's fairly foreign or more foreign than it is to Lamar Jackson. Like the idea of, well, what's Jalen Hurts going to look like in an under center world where he may be asked to throw the ball to the middle of the field more often.

8:37That's where there's some guesswork involved in that. That's what Lamar Jackson does best. It's really the best thing about who he is as a quarterback. And so a system designed to kind of pry open that area and have him play with maybe a little bit more space because of the play action stuff that they're likely going to lean into. I'm excited to see what that's going to look like. It is interesting that it would take Declan Doyle to ramp this up, though, because I assume that's what's going to happen. Like the Bears were second in the league in play action attempts last year. The Ravens, it's never like you said, it's never been like Hertz or Jaden Daniels or Joe Burrow.

9:09He's been under center like a normal amount. It's not been a ton, but it's been it hasn't been a total outlier. Like it's been with some of those other guys. But specifically agreed. Yes. But and also with play action, it's not that they don't do a lot of play action. Like they've hovered between 10 and 15 over the last like three years. Last year, they were second fewest in the league. I assume some of that is because of Lamar's injuries. But do it more often. Yeah. Like, why? Why? Why are we in 2026 just now talking about doing it a lot? And so I hope Declan Doyle dials it up to the degree that the Bears were doing last year because they were awesome at it.

9:44You guys are focusing on the offense and what you're excited to watch. I'm excited to see what Jesse Minter can do with like some serious dudes. The Chargers have a decent collection of personnel. Derwin James is a good player. Khalil Mack still has, you know, Khalil Mack is pretty ageless at this point. Tuli Tupelo had a nice season. They've tired Tartt. They've gotten a lot out of. But we talked about this with the Chargers yesterday. The Chargers, a lot of the excitement about the Chargers over the last couple of years is their ability to get more than they've paid for with some of these guys.

10:12I mean, tired Tartt was available essentially for free. The Ravens have invested in some big name guys all the way across that defense. And I'm excited to see what Jesse Minter can do with this level of defensive talent on the high end. Kyle Hamilton, Nate Wiggins. We'll see what we get from Matt Abike, which we'll hit in a second. Malachi Starks was a first round pick. Trey Hendrickson, they paid a shitload of money too. And not only what the overall quality of this is going to look like, but how do they play? Do they feel like they can play a little bit more man coverage because they have Wiggins and Marlon Humphrey on the outside?

10:43Do they get a little bit matchier? The Chargers last year were 28th in man coverage rate. And the other thing I feel like is going to be something that's worth watching that's important here. The Ravens last year specifically, they played a ton of single high coverages. They were the fifth highest rate of single high coverages in the NFL last year in Baltimore. The Chargers were 28th. The Chargers played two and a half times the amount of quarters that the Ravens played last year. And when the Ravens were at their best with this core of pieces two years ago in Mike mcdonald was there it was these ideas even if the system and the language was the same with zach or stylistically they had really drifted away from a lot of the stuff that they were doing with mcdonald when this was the best defense in the nfl and so i think we'll see them move back in that general direction and i think with this collection of players and just what we've seen from jesse mentor over the last couple years it's a group that's pretty easy to get excited about i think the man coverage stuff that you're talking about is really the biggest point to me because i I think, you know, the Chargers last year, they just didn't really have the personnel to do it.

11:44Like, I think Dante Jackson can be a decent one-on-one corner, but they played a lot of match. Or they played a lot of zone for a reason. Because I think Cam Hart is really good at that, still is really good at that. When I look, and honestly, you mentioned that they were 28th in man coverage rate. If you look at just cover one, they're second to last. The only one that was... Yeah, there's a lot of cover zero. Yeah. Exactly. Like, they'll do it a little bit when they play zero. But just pure cover one, like playing with a rat or a robber, just didn't really do a whole lot of that. because they just didn't trust their corners.

12:11Whereas I think you look at what Baltimore has, both at corner, like Nate Wiggins can play one-on-one, Humphrey can play one-on-one, but also what they have at safety. Like, I think if you want to like roll down Starks or Hamilton or Jalen Hawkins as like that robber, they can absolutely do it. If you want to have Roquan Smith be the rat, like he can do it. Like I just, it feels like they have a lot more better personnel to run a lot more of that man stuff, but you just wonder how does that fit into some of the shells and run defense stuff that they like to do? because playing a lot more man does change like how your fits work and stuff like that so i just wonder how he's going to make all that sort of stuff work for them and even if it's not man coverage specifically i think one of the bigger differentiators between let's just call let's say quarters right when they were playing quarters when mcdonald was there there's a little bit more air in that version of quarters than the way that jesse minter likes to play it and i think if you're going to be a little bit matchier and stickier with this group of corners you can play that way even if it's not even if it's not man coverage quote unquote i just think that stylistically some of the things they already want to do are better unlocked with this group of corners and arguably the ones that he had when he was with the Chargers, which just feels like such a sigh of relief that the Nate Wiggins injury from a week or two ago doesn't appear to be that serious.

13:23And Humphrey coming back, the fact that they came back the same day was as somebody who picked the Ravens in the defense draft. I was very happy to see them both get back onto the practice field at the exact same time for each of these teams. We want to talk about just what we're watching over the first month of the season, a curiosity that we have some lingering questions about that we think will ultimately be important in determining how the season goes. Dave, let's kick this off with you. What are you watching over the first month of the season with the Baltimore Ravens? Nnamdi Matabike's role, if he's healthy enough to have one, which I've been beating this drum since Minner took the job, so why stop now?

13:58The latest report out of Baltimore's camp is that Nnamdi was hitting the sled for the first time on Monday, which is definitively progress. Baby steps. that's you know we're we're hoping the best form and we hope he comes back great but hitting the for the first time on august 24th tempers my hopes and dreams a little bit you know like if we'll see where it goes but that makes me think this is more of a gradual process than mattabike's cannonballing back into this lineup in week one and we're we're back to the way things were which we talked about it on a show this summer the difference when he's been on the field for them not last year because he was hurt and he played two games but in 23 and 24 this was such a substantially better defense when he was on the field like the on-off splits for success rate explosive rate allowed stuff rate allowed our start when he's in there and i know several things contributed to it but the ravens fell from first in dvoa to um in 23 to sixth and 24 we're 17th last year.

15:04Not having him in the center of all that is undoubtedly a huge piece of it. So how quickly can he get back and what does he look like when he's back? I mean, maybe the first month of the season isn't even enough time. Maybe it has to be more gradual than that, but I'm going to be watching that like a hawk. It's important, not only just for the overall quality of the defense, but when you look at that room specifically, Clayus Campbell is kind of a tweener, but Clayus Campbell is 40 years old at this point. They don't have a lot of twitch among that group. it's a lot of big boys clays campbell is for uh 40 and is he really 40 like really i think he's 39 okay i think he's 39 but uh john jenkins is not much younger and broderick washington he is much younger but he's still 30 clays campbell will turn 40 next week yeah dude so that's not even an exaggeration he will be 40 years old next week they they are long in the tooth doesn't do justice to the room behind Matt Abike?

15:58I will say not having as much pass rush pop on the interior and this team is so much better if they have Matt Abike doing that. I do think the edge room is a lot deeper and more dynamic this year than it was last year. You have kind of these cool stylistic mirror images of one another where you have Trey Hendrickson and Mike Green as kind of your bend your speed pass rush guys and then you have Zion Johnson and Tavius Robinson as more of your big bodied early down edge players and that mix of those four guys if Hendrickson can we'll talk about that in a second but Hendrickson getting back to form Mike Green into year two just thinking a little bit less even if it's a due defensive coordinator a lot of the same verbiage a lot of the same ideas I think that it just has kind of freed him up to play in a way that he wasn't able to do as a rookie and then if you have Tavius Robinson talking to Jeff Cerebic when I was there he thinks that Tavius Robinson has a chance to take as big a step as anybody on the entire roster from last year to this year.

16:51So if the edge room is a little bit deeper and a little bit better than it was last season, you can maybe survive without Matt Abike in a way you couldn't before. But I still think that having even some version of him in the middle of this thing changes the complexion of what that front feels like. It's worth saying another young guy getting rave reviews in that position group, Aeneas Peebles in his second year seems to be having an amazing camp. I'm not banking on that though. Like that is, that's encouraging, but we'll see, we'll see what it looks like if, if Nnamdi's not ready to go. What I'm watching, I've kind of alluded to this.

17:28I want to see what the veterans on this team look like. The expensive veterans on this team. Trey Hendrickson, Marlon Humphrey, Roquan Smith. What do those players look like early in the season? because when you look at the Ravens cap coming into the year, after Lamar, the three most expensive players on the Ravens are Roquan Smith, Nnamdi Matabike, and Marlon Humphrey. If those guys aren't playing well, and I think in Humphrey's case and in Roquan's case, especially the first half of last season, playing better than they did last year, you can't square that sort of investment when you have those three guys accounting for 33 % of your cap if they're not going to meet difference-making players.

18:12And so what do you get out of that trio? And how much do we feel them as part of this team? Because if you're not feeling the three highest-paid players on your team outside of the quarterback, I just think it's really, really hard for you to hit your ceiling overall. And I'm glad you mentioned them because this is actually sort of my keeping me up at night because I think outside of Hamilton, all of the best and elite players on the Ravens' defense kind of feels a little bit flimsy for one reason or another. Like, we don't know when Matabike is coming back. Roquan Smith, again, for the first half of last year, I think played the worst football I've ever seen him play, and he got better by the end.

18:49But it's like, I still want to see him play another full season like that. Trey Hendrickson is getting a little bit older, and he was obviously banged up pretty recently. Marlon Humphrey is getting a little bit older. He's been banged up. Nate Wiggins was banged up this offseason. The guys who are the five needle movers, who are supposed to make this defense feel different than the Chargers defense, If it all hits, holy shit, they're incredible. There's reason to believe that each one of them, like you really do need things to go a certain way for them. I'm with you. That's exactly how I feel.

19:19And I think we'll know pretty early. Like, what are we getting out of it? Because these aren't guys that need to ramp up. These aren't second year players where it's like, oh, maybe they'll improve over the course of the season. I want to see it pretty quickly for me to gauge how I should feel about this Ravens team and specifically this Ravens defense. Can I throw in one more thing for the first month? You sure can. my first special teams addendum of the preview series. Tyler Loop. Hey, how much did that wind up mattering, by the way? Just throwing that out there. Jordan Stout followed Harbaugh to New York, and they drafted his replacement.

19:50Ryan Eckley was punting the shit out of the football in the preseason the other day. He was averaging like 55 yards of punt. I'm so glad you're here. You laugh if you want to. I'm not kidding. I'm so glad. That's just something that would never have come up on this show unless you were here. Hey, this is the second year in a row they're putting specialist duties in the hands of a rookie and hopefully Tyler loop has many makes left in his career but you know it loomed large for the 2025 Baltimore Ravens one of the other things you were curious about that I do think is worth sitting with just for a second is how the defensive back rolls on this team shake out because I I do think that it's pretty solidified or at least was when I was at camp I was there on August 6th so we're not going on three weeks now I think things obviously shift.

20:34And to me, the most important changeover might be what's going to happen in Dime when they have six DBs on the field. Because Keon Martin, who is an undrafted free agent, I think they were really excited about what he was giving in those situations. But Chandler Rivers, who they drafted, I think in the fifth round, dog, I feel like that was probably going to be a little bit of a battle. And Rivers has played well enough in a preseason where do we see a little bit more of him in those looks? But other than that, it sounded like when I was there, they really wanted Marlon Humphrey to focus on being a full-time outside corner for the first time in a while.

21:05Because even last year, Derek, he led this team in slot snaps because Kyle Hamilton had to play a little bit more safety because they didn't have that third safety over the course of the year. And so Humphrey being a full-time outside guy, Hamilton being the full-time nickel, having Jalen Hawkins to play another second safety spot. I think that's going to be the five we see for a vast majority of the snaps with some combination of Martin and Chandler Rivers coming in to be that nickel when they move Kyle Hamilton, the dime linebacker. And I am actually interested because, like you said, it's we haven't really seen Humphrey just stick at a spot in a while, because every year we talk about like, oh, the Ravens love to move Kyle Hamilton to fix their issues.

21:42They'll move him to safety. They'll move to nickel. The one who moves in conjunction with him is Marlon Humphrey. If Hamilton's in the slot, it bumps Humphrey out. And if Hamilton's not, then Humphrey usually goes back in and they're playing Chido, Awuzie, or whoever on the outside. And so I do think the fact that they are so committed to being like, no, we really do want to just keep him here and let him do this. I think that that is probably of benefit to him at this stage in his career. I agree. And I said he was one of the guys I mentioned on the Players That Can Swing the Season show. I think there are probably four or five of those guys on this Ravens team.

22:13We can be Roquan's one of those guys. Matt Abike is one of those guys. But I said in the moment, I still believe it. if you tell me at the end of the season, Marlon Humphrey had a great season for the Ravens, what do you think the percentage chances that the Ravens defense was good? I think it's really, really like 85%. Yeah, it's really hot. For each of these teams, we want to chat about the stuff that a little, a little more worrisome, the things that are kind of lingering there in the back of our minds. What is keeping you up at night, Dave, about the 2026 Baltimore Ravens? I'm rooting for him, but Jacoby Lane's super camp is, is jumping the shark a little bit.

22:52And all of a sudden, how dare you being excited about a young receiver is doing a lot to distract us from what is otherwise a pretty. Ah, okay. Group of pass catchers. And that's even, I've come around on say flowers and I, I feel vindicated. I commend the Ravens for getting the deal done early. and I think Zay's production last year flew under the radar by myself and by many others. Even with Zay in the mix, what's getting you excited about the Ravens pass catchers unless Jacoby Lane really is just a rookie phenom? And I guess that's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Mark Andrews was third on the Ravens roster and 46th in the league among tight ends in yards per route run.

23:42That's down from seventh in 2024, four and down from third two years before that behind mark andrews durham smith he's gonna have a role in what the ravens want to do he's not a pass catching threat no he is a dirty work guy to the max and last year when he was the third tight end in chicago that you feel a little bit better about how dynamic your multi-tight end personnel groupings look in the past game when durham smith is your third tight end instead of your second tight end and then and i mean they have two rookies there too but again how much you're showing a little bit man yeah i'm excited about the hibner experience i would even say cuevas had a couple nice moments in in the vikings preseason game so it's not to rule it out entirely but banking on rookies specifically day three rookies third and fifth round picks hibner was a fifth round pick uh fourth round or if i believe so third and fourth round picks in jacoby lane and hibner is i do think that we're going to need to see something for those guys for this to feel like it's all kind of coming together because i'm with you the mark andrews part of this it does leave me a little bit worried and i'm i'm just not signing up for the rashad bateman experience again that's my personal rashad bateman has legal issues like he yeah that is just had a case where you know he uh trying to break into a car and stuff like that um and so like you wonder like is that gonna loom over them for the course of the season and so i think it's funny though that this was like you're up at night and i think that that's totally justified mine was more curiosity because i think i'm a little bit bullish on some of these players like I really liked Jacoby Lane coming out of college.

25:09Yeah, you're already carving out Jacoby's bust. Of course you're excited. I was ready before he got drafted and then the Ravens took him and I was like, finally a ball winner for Lamar Jackson. And so I'm some amount of bullish. I do think it's a little bit scary if he really does have to be the number two. I do think that that changes things a little bit. But again, I've liked what I've seen from some of the backup tight ends and it's clear to see what their roles are supposed to be. And I think I also just have some amount of faith that like if Lamar Jackson's 95 % man he he won MVPs with pass catching course that were really not that different from this and so I'm I'm pretty willing to buy it also overall optimistic about this but what is keeping me up at night is just what if it doesn't work like what if this changeover on offense doesn't work because I think I'm with you Derek where I'm just pretty quickly being like oh there'll be a top seven offense again I think I have faith in the Declan work.

26:02I do. I'm really excited about him as a play caller. Lamar Jackson has won the MVP in his first year with a new play card twice. And I think part of that is new ideas and them getting to spring them on teams. And I think part of it is him being excited and bought in when, when something doesn't feel like it's gotten stale. So I, I am overall optimistic about this, but there's a little voice in the back of my mind where it's like, what are the past catchers? Aren't good enough. The offensive line, we haven't even talked about yet. I mean, they've made additions to the offensify keeping you up at night too and ronnie stanley's getting a little bit older i think you know john simpson is somebody that again very much in the back half of his career i'm excited about the physicality that you want a theoretically brings to the run game but center has already been a revolving door i was in minnesota on the day where matt penter tore his patellar tendon danny and or danny pinter excuse me matt pinter is the matt painter is the purdue basketball coach Danny Pinter, that was one of the more bummer moments I've seen in a practice because this is a guy that was a career backup, had been practicing with the ones the entire summer because Ethan Postage had been coming back from injury, and you could see it in Danny Pinter's face where he was just like, this was my shot.

27:13This was my shot to change my career because if he had been the starter all year, he was going to be a free agent. What does that end up looking like? He slammed his hand on the cart when he was driving off. Like he just knew like this is over, which was tough to watch in real time. So I do think there's enough there. And I'll say this. I said in the moment, stand by it. Lamar was not playing well before he got hurt last year. He was not playing well. He looked out of sorts early in the season compared to what we had seen him look like over the previous two years. I have all the faith in the world in this player being able to bounce back and look more like the 24 version when in my mind, it was the best he had ever played was during the 24 season.

27:52I absolutely think he can get back there. But the last time I saw him even moderately healthy, he did not look like the player he was in 24. And so while I think all this stuff can come together, there's a little kernel there where I'm, if I were a Ravens fan, I'd be like, what if it doesn't? And what does that mean? How good does the defense have to be? And for the Lamar stuff, I'm still, I'm so in the bag for him that like, last year was weird and they were, they were more feast and famine than I think he'd ever been in his career. And I think that that's the way to explain it. Like his highs were still there, but the lows were just lower than they had ever really been.

28:25So much more uncomfortable in the pocket, deeper into downs, taking sacks. The thing that stood out in 24 is that he was so in command. I had never seen him in that sort of command in the pocket as a passer. And that just didn't, he didn't feel that assertiveness in the, even the first month of last season. Like the Lions game, I always go back to where the numbers are fine because they're explosive. but when you actually look at how it feels down to down, that command just was not there. And so can he regain it? Yes. I have faith in that happening, but I do think the last time we saw him even moderately healthy, it just didn't look like he had the game in the palm of his hand in the way that he did in 2024.

29:06All right. What does success look like Derek for the 2026 Baltimore Ravens? I mean, I still think that this is a team that should like at worst, get to the divisional round and play like a pretty strong game in the divisional round and i think that they can be even better than that like i still think that this is a really good team and roster than last year was just things got a little bit stale quarterback was banged up but like i still ultimately think that this is one of the better teams in the nfl jesse minner has the goods and by the end of the year we view him similarly to mike mcdonald and the ravens win the division and reclaim their place as a member of the elite.

29:46I don't know what that means. It's hard for me to say. It's hard for me to say you got to go to the Super Bowl under a first year head coach. I think you got to go to the AFC championship game to the AFC championship game. I mean, if you're among the elite, then that's what we're talking about. You know why? I think putting that on a first year coach is very high end expectations. There are a lot of old players on this team. The Trey Henderson is an older player. Roquan's going to be an older player. Ronnie Stanley is going to be an older player. like you don't have that many more shots with this core of team with this core of players to be one of the best teams in the league like there's going to be some turnover at some point it's got to happen in one of the next two or two years probably that is the conflict i felt and i thought to myself can i really expect a first year head coach to win the super bowl and then everything you just said and i think i settled on thinking into like two years is the window Two years is the window to get it done with this team.

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34:18Let's get to the Cincinnati Bengals, our preview for the 2026 Bengals. They're off season in 60 seconds signed boyamafe brian cook and jonathan allen in free agency traded for dexter lawrence traded the 10th overall pick for dexter lawrence the cincinnati bangles a real thing that happened michael beller in the draft no first round pick cassius howell in the second round cornerback takario davis in the third round connor lou the offensive lineman in the fourth round lost trey hendrickson and joseph osai in free agency this year david what are you most excited about as it relates to the 2026 Bengals.

34:53My large adult sons are back playing football again, slinging the ball around the yard. And that's no shade to Tee Higgins either that he's worth bringing up. But Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase hold a special place in my heart and always will. And the fact that they play together in the NFL, I'll never take that for granted. I mean, it's as simple as the Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry thing. Like when those two are on the field. Well, when those three, I will include T Higgins, who technically a tiger, just a different, you know, sort of tiger. True. That's very true. When those three are on the field, they've been a top five offense basically every time.

35:30And there's been some waxes and wanes of them being on the field together. You know, they've all had injury issues really outside of, you know, chase, I think I said the least issues. But when they're on the field together, they're just pumping out like 300 yard games. And they're still one of the best offenses in the NFL, even if I will say the last year or two, it's looked different. It's still always been incredibly good. And so when those guys are out there, it's just like, you always know that they give you a chance to just win any game 30 to 28. This may be more appropriate for the next category, but my thought about it, as I agree with you guys, that's what I'm excited to watch.

36:01Like that, that trio when they're on the field together is 0.18 EPA per drop, EPA per play last year, which would have been, I think, first or second in the entire league. They are, it's a firework show it's phenomenal i think this is potentially the most complete team we have seen with the bangles offensively when you look at every single element of the offense and we can talk about the transition offensively in a second because i think we all have some curiosity about that they've never finished higher than sixth in epa per play since joe burrow's been there never been higher than six i mean i guess that's yeah probably because they're all missing time and stuff together and they've had i think it's a little bit of growing pains early in season sometimes yeah that's part of it the other part joe burrow has never finished in the top five in epa per drop back ever it's not one time yeah that that tracks even the years where they were really good he was taking 50 sacks a season and so this offense it's been exciting the talent is overwhelming there are there are some guys in the nfl when you're there at training camp and you're just watching the move at practice and it's just like this is a different tier of athlete of talent of human being the specimen jamar chase is on that list like when you watch him move it's just crazy and that's when this offense is at its best those two guys and t going at it together it's a it's a unique animal but they've always been right on the doorstep of being this overwhelming force they'd never quite gotten there because either they're taking a decent amount of sacks or the run game just doesn't have the oomph, right?

37:33That's been one of the issues. And last year, they were a really successful running team in the back half of the season. The offensive line, I think you can make an argument, is as good as it's been since Joe Burrow got there. There's some concerns. We can talk about that. But you have two homegrown guys that you feel good about among that group for the first time ever with Dylan Fairchild and Marius Mims. The run game is just a higher quality and more consistent. Like, I do think you can get to a place where you can convince yourself this is the best plan and collection of pieces we have seen for this team offensively even when they were going to AFC championships game championship games going to Super Bowls I can't get over the fact that Joe's 2024 wasn't top five because he got sacked 48 times that's the reason wild but I'm with you like I'm with you on this being the most complete version I think of the team we've ever seen because I put it in my category for this I was yeah Jamar, Joe and T together on top of it is the most I think complete team we've ever seen like the offensive line I think last year was already probably the best that we'd ever seen with Joe Burrow and if like you said those young guys take a step if Mims is even better if Fairchild is even better it's like okay this really starts to turn into something a little bit different and then I think you know outside of you know obviously the two just freak show receivers it's a lot of role players but they do have a lot of them like Yoshibas is a totally solid player I thought Mitchell Tinsley actually played pretty well at wide receiver for them as like a can be outside the numbers, catch some passes up in the air.

39:01They're tight ends. None of them are superstars, but they all have a role like Drew Samples, a blocker. You still have guys who like a second is on their officer. He can still do some of the pass catching stuff. And then Chase Brown is like the most boring, pretty good running back in the entire NFL. Like they just have options even outside the elite guys. Well, you didn't mention your boy, Eric. Oh, yeah. Eric, oh, who can actually be there, like move around guy. Two guys you did not mention that I think are worth throwing out. Colby Young, who they drafted in the fourth round, they have not really had like a dirty work receiver.

39:32Even Yoshivas is more of a finesse speed guy. Colby Young, I think, is the first guy they've had in a couple years where, especially if we're going to be in a more under center place, which we'll talk about in a second, we got to have a dude that's going to be willing to dig some safeties out. And I think that's the first guy in a while they've had that can do that. And why I think all is important. Drew Sample is a capable blocker. I think Drew Sample and I run the same 40. Drew Sample is not an explosive player. He is a strong player that you can play in line. All is an explosive blocker. Some of the stuff sifting across the formation, some of the two back things they can do with him.

40:07If you're going to be a team that wants to be more diversified in the running game and you have two receivers that will not block anybody, which, fine. I wouldn't be asking my$45 million receivers to block anybody. You need some too tight end stuff where both of those guys are capable blockers and different sorts of blockers. And I think all they missed him last year because they did not have that type of snap my hips explode into people guy in that tight end room. And they do now with him back. It's a deep tight end room in general. Just I mean, like they go five. I would guess they're going to have five guys on the roster.

40:43It's because he doesn't really count. Sure. Yeah, it's because he's really just a big receiver. So let's talk a little bit about that offensive transition, because I think both of you are really curious about that. Derek, what are you watching over the first month of the season with this Cincinnati Bengals team? Yeah, I mean, I think I've expressed my concerns about it before. It's like how much of this offense really is new? How much of it is under center? Are they motioning guys a little bit more? Does the run game add some more stuff to it? Because I think, you know, you've brought this up, Robert, that when they got under center, they actually could be explosive.

41:16When they were a shotgun run team, they really weren't. They were pretty efficient, but they were not explosive. And when they got under center, they did have a 9.2 % explosive run rate, which was top five in the NFL. Part of that is I think it was a changeup that teams just weren't respecting and ready for because they did it at the second lowest rate in the NFL. And so I do wonder, because I think in my mind, teams that can go under center and run the ball, that is a little bit more of we are running on our terms and we get to decide how this goes. and I still have a little bit of question. I think that's why this is important.

41:47I think speaking that out is so important. It is. I just, I think I'm, have a little bit more reservations about their ability to actually get there and tie that into the passing game and what all that looks like. I think it's something that is necessary for them to, like you said, get over the doorstep from consistently great to elite and actually defining offensive football in the NFL. I think I just have more questions about what that's actually going to look like. And again, what does it actually look like when they put it together on the field and how much are they leaning into it? Really?

42:18This change reminds me of a New Year's resolution where it's easy to say on December 27th, this is what I want to do. And I want to lose 15 pounds and here's how I'm going to do it. But like the day in, day out consistency is such a huge part of it. And like, yes, you're doing this to potentially get more explosive. But you have to like commit to the boring aspect of it to see the results. I think they're committed to it. I hope you're right. I don't think this is one of those training camp things where, oh, we're going to do more of this. If you look at just percentages, they, the way that I understand it, we're talking like 60 % under center during training camp for a reason.

43:01They're over indexing on it because they feel like they need to work on it. last year they were down near the bottom of the league i think it was like 20 i don't think this is going to be a scenario where it goes from like 20 to 25 i don't think that's how they're envisioning it i do think they want this to be a more central part of what their offensive identity looks like how clean that process is remains to be seen but but i don't think this is lip service i don't think this is something they're gesturing at it really don't it's not that i think it's lip service it's that i worry that if it's clunky in the first six weeks of the season do they throw in the garbage do you throw it in the garbage or or turn it down especially like if joe burrows pissed off about what is happening because it's not coming quickly how do you react to that and i just worry like they're so predictable and obviously they are because they're such a heavy shotgun team but even when they go under center like their run pass split from under center over the last two years is 75 25 so it's a top five rate if teams know what you're gonna do when you do get under center it decreases the likelihood that anything's gonna hit the way you want it to i think that's the whole point is that they're trying to make all that stuff be tied together in a way that it never has been it needs to and i think the explosiveness on the ground is part of this derek mentioned that they were i think 31st in the league and explosive run right out of the gun last year but they're bottom bottom three to bottom five i can't remember exactly what it was and then they were second in explosive run rate from under center.

44:30So the explosive, it's just the diversity of runs that you can have. You can only run so many things from the gun and a lot of those are not explosive runs. For them, it was a lot of duo and it was a lot of tight zone. I think you're going to see more mid zone this year and I think you're going to see some gap scheme stuff that they think can be more gashes than the things that they've leaned into in the past. But the other part of this is that if you can get to a place where that run game feels like it has some oomph to it and people have to start responding to it. That's the situation where you can get one-on-ones that you have not been able to enjoy on the outside in a very long time.

45:03Per NextGen last year, 34 % cloud coverages against the Bengals, 34%. There is a bigger gap between them and the Vikings at number two than there was between the Vikings and the team in 13th. It's just a different approach toward them than anybody else in the league is getting. And so I think their goal is you pick your poison. You want to play like that and we can do what we think we can do on the ground. We're going to have a gear we've never had before. And as soon as you have to start accounting for that, even a little bit, you are leaving, I think, in my opinion, the most dangerous player in the world in more one-on-one situations than you are comfortable with.

45:42That is the vision. Whether they can actually execute on that is an entirely different conversation, but I understand the pursuit of it. Oh, I wholeheartedly understand and appreciate the pursuit. I just hope they're committed to it. And I assume the we talked about it on one of the preseason wrap up shows. I mean, it was it's a very small sample size, but you saw the good and the bad in that preseason game against Detroit. Like they hit the nice dig for a big chunk. And then the next time they tried the under center play action, it blew up in their face. And when they when it counts, how willing are you to commit to the highs and the lows?

46:19I hope you're right, and I trust that what you're saying is correct, but I want to see it. I want to watch it closely. That play, which we talked about in the moment, I think is a really good representation of some of the downsides to this. Joe is so comfortable with where his outlets are because they're so used to playing in a very specific way. Like, I think he can rattle off, like, and just feel every single escape hatch and vulnerability in every part of how they used to play. when you're doing this the picture is just less clear just think about it practically there are so many more bodies crammed into the core of the formation that if you're chase brown and you're dealing with a tight end or two into the core and it's there's all this traffic on some of these play fakes is the linebacker coming is the linebacker not coming when do i release based on where his body and where his positioning is and whether he's a threat that stuff is just all going to be murkier than it's ever been in the environment that the bengals play offense and And that play is a perfect example.

47:17And so I think over time, the hope is you get more familiar and more comfortable with where those outlets are and the binary of some of those choices in a way that maybe in preseason game one, you're just not. Who knows? But again, and I think some of his outlets, because obviously he is really good at that at getting to his checkdowns or even just knowing where to escape in the pocket. But when you're doing the honor center play action stuff, like the pockets look different where your escape valves are, are different when and where your checkdowns are different. And I think it's a little bit more of like, I got to trust that Jamar, the half an inch that Jamar has in outside leverage or on the top leverage of this corner, that he can just go get it.

47:55And I've just got to stand here and throw it. It needs to be like, you need to be a little bit more like Matthew Stafford or Ryan Tannehill, where it's just like, he's going to be there. I've got to let it go. And he's obviously talented enough and accurate enough to do that. That's just not as much the style that they've operated with to this point in his career. it's I mean it was fun talking to players there about the transition and some of the things they're having to weigh now that they might not have previously like if you're going to be in a lot more 12 personnel and you're going to have a credible run game I think you're going to see a little bit more base defense than you had in a previous world and the front variety on early downs and base defense is now much more complex than it used to be talking to Ted Karras their center he had a really interesting observation where he was talking about how it used to be when you were in sub packages, that's when shit would get crazy in terms of things you'd have to identify and just all the moving parts as a center.

48:46Now, because of all the front multiplicity that teams are having to use because they're playing in light boxes with these shells, it's actually early downs when you're having to work through more of it. And as they've diversified the run game, he was at a place when I was there about 10 days ago where he was long-handing the run responsibilities, where he would literally go down the line and be like, you've got that guy, you've got that guy, you've got that guy, you've got that guy, you've got that guy. That's how thorough they were having to be because they just weren't ready for the shorthand stuff yet.

49:15But I think the hope is over time they get there. The benefit of this is they have a center who is very smart and can get away with some of that stuff. And I think his role in all of this is worth acknowledging because if you had a guy that wasn't in the league for 11 years the way that he's been, he's already a smart guy, this transition might feel a little bit more daunting than it probably does for them. that's a that's such a great underrated point to make especially when your quarterback is not as experienced doing this stuff as as most others in the NFL would be we have not touched the elephant in the room here so let's get into it what is keeping you up at night Dave about the 2026 Cincinnati Bengals I think we're gonna know by week two or week three whether what they did on defense worked and what's keeping me up at night is that we'll know in September that it didn't work and we're doing the same shit all over again hoping that the Bengals can outscore their way to the playoffs I mean it's as simple as that like I just and I'm I'm all for the Dexter Lawrence trade I thought it was good I know top 10 pick sounds crazy look at the players that we're gonna go 10th overall in this draft I'm totally fine trading that pick for a guy in Dexter Lawrence, even if he's coming off of like a little bit of a down stretch for him.

50:30And I think what you hear from some Bengals fans, I got this a lot when I was talking about and watching their rookie linebackers from last year, is that at the end of the season, the Bengals defense did have like a little bit of an upturn. 17th in the NFL and EPA per play in the second half of the season. They were still, if you remove the final three weeks of the season, though, where they played the Cardinals, the Dolphins and the Browns, which were like, by that stage in the season, not real football. That's a useful, that's a useful caveat. Yeah. They were, they were the worst defense in DVOA.

51:01And so that is still, obviously you're being anchored a little bit by the early point in the season, but I still just don't think that they got significantly better to the point where I'm willing to make these proclamations that they are going to get better. Obviously I think Dexter Lawrence does do a lot for them, but like trying to, you know, fight against myself a little bit, the Giants had Dexter Lawrence the last couple of years and they couldn't get anybody in run defense. And so like they were really bad. And I think it's just trying to figure out how good are the players around him. And I a lot of that to me goes down to what does the edge room actually look like?

51:31Because Shamar Stewart was a zero for them last year as a rookie. Cassius Howell, I think, has struggled a little bit in the preseason. Miles Murphy actually did come on a little bit at the end of last year. He started to leverage that like he's not going to be a bendy get around the edge guy, but he can actually get into the tackles and really push them into the quarterback. And he did that better towards the end of last year than we thought. But they paid a lot of money to Boye Mafe, who over his course in Seattle had lost playing time and was really only like the third or fourth best guy in an incredible edge room.

52:04And now he is arguably, they hope, maybe their best guy. And so I think just trying to figure out how good is that edge room actually around Lawrence, I think goes a really long way for whether this is good enough or not. the Shamar Shamar Stewart part of this, I almost think he's a bonus. Like, whatever they get from Shamar Stewart is kind of a bonus. But even if the only improvements to the edge room, because I think in some of the five down front stuff, Murphy probably plays five technique in those looks. So if you're talking purely edge looks and five down fronts, even if it's just some combination of Boye, Mafe, and then Cassius Hall rotating it on some later downs, it is so much better than what they had last year.

52:43Because I think part of the problem is, if you look at what the defense had to start doing last season, this team, Sean Desai is a senior defensive assistant on this team. Ideally, I don't think they want to be playing a lot of loaded boxes. I don't think that was the goal. But when you look at the way that things were unfolding last year, last season, per next gen, the Bengals gave up a 47.1 % success rate with a.11 EPA per carry on plays where the offense had as many blockers as defenders in the box. 0.11 EPA per play is the same as Joe Burrow's drop back EPA during that 2024 season. So every run into a blocked box against the Bengals was a Joe Burrow drop back from 2024.

53:27Jesus Christ. You can't be living that way. They had to play in all these five down fronts because of that. That's like, we have to play this way. We can't play with these four down structures. And the only guy they felt really comfortable playing in that other edge role was Demetrius Knight. So they had their rookie off-ball linebacker who was already swimming, now having to play two different positions. And so the Dexter Lawrence part of this is huge because now can you play more two-high structures because Dexter Lawrence has eaten up those blocks? But even having one to two guys, you feel comfortable playing on the edge and allowing Demetrius Knight's role to be a little bit more streamlined.

54:04The way that it came up in conversation when I was there, I think it's such a good way of putting it. last year they did a lot of shit because they had to and I think this year because of the improvements we're in a place where you can do the things that you want to and I do think that that transition is hopefully going to be enough for them to feel different on that side of the ball I like Boye Mafé for the contract that he got I think Brian Cook is an underrated signing I even I like Kyle Duggar I thought Kyle Duggar did some good stuff for Pittsburgh last year do you think any of this holds up the way that it needs to if Dexter Lawrence isn't exceptional no yeah I think he's the most important player on the team outside of Joe Burrow I think he needs to holding him to the 2024 standard before he got hurt is crazy because he was on an unbelievable tear but he needs to he needs to scratch that sort of level I think if this is going to work at all Cause I just, I didn't mention Jonathan Allen either.

55:04Not John, not, not that Jonathan Allen anymore, but like he can be serviceable for you. I don't think any of this stuff holds together if he's not worthy of the number 10 overall pick. And like, if he plays that way, I love the trade. I liked the trade at the time. If he's that guy. And I, I hope the, I hope the dip in his production over the last year and a half is more about being banged up and that's behind him now than a declining player. because if he's a declining player, this is going to suck. There's been nothing but rave reviews. And what Ted Karras said to me that I think is so important, the way that he framed it was, every player on the defense gets 10 points better because Dexter Lawrence is out there.

55:43And if that's true, that's why you do a trade. That is the argument for why this can work. And if it's not true when we actually get into real games, then I think a lot of this stuff starts to fall apart pretty quickly. My optimism is soaring right now based on what I've seen through training camp, but I've been hurt before. especially by the Cincinnati Bengals. The area of this team that is still the weakest, and we've talked about it a lot this offseason, linebacker is something they did not address. And those guys, Demetrius Knight and Barrett Carter, the combination of them just needs to be so much better.

56:11And I think the argument is they played 700 snaps apiece last year. They took so many lumps, but they never broke over the course of the year. And I think that experience, if you're trying to talk yourself into it, it was callous, callousing, but ultimately beneficial. And when you have Dexter Lawrence, since Derek, you and I have talked about this. Like if you're fitting the B gap as a rookie linebacker and half a second into the play, the B gap is three players wide. It's a little bit harder to play. And the whole hope is that Dexter Lawrence and the edges too, that just the space gets compressed in a way where it makes things a little bit cleaner for guys who are now walking into year two of this system where things are slowing down for them.

56:51And that's the other thing too. You know, we've talked about so many of these other linebackers coming to the league and get to play next to a guy who's really good Or like, you know, Roquan Smith coming over to Baltimore and he gets to kind of help Patrick Queen along a little bit. Well, when it's two rookies next to each other in the first year of a defense, in a defense, it's not very good. It's like you kind of get why it just didn't look very good. Yes, I think they made each other worse. And I think that even like their position coach was coming from New Orleans, where that defense is very different than a lot of the structural things that the Bengals were trying to do.

57:24And so I think it was a learning process for everybody. And I think that combined with the talent up front improving and streamlining things a little bit, is everybody just a little bit more comfortable heading into the season? It's a rosy outlook, right? Like that is the positive spin on this. But I think that is the spin you have to be giving if you're the Bengals. What does success look like, David, for the 2026 Cincinnati Bengals? Justify the amount of attention that is paid to you as a franchise. because Joe and Jamar and T means, and what they did in 21 and 22 means a lot of talk for a team that has now missed the playoffs three years in a row.

58:02Yeah. Win the division, make the playoffs, preferably win a playoff game, resemble the team that was very briefly Kansas City's biggest rival in the AFC. Win a playoff game. Win one. Yeah. And I like definitely if they get knocked out in the first round, that would be embarrassing. to me it's you have to win the division and the reason I say that they are the only team that really has continuity here and I know that we're excited about the Ravens we just spent a lot of time on them um but the the Ravens are flipping over their staff the Steelers are flipping over their staff the Browns are flipping over there and the Browns aren't going to be any good but like they are the team that like they're kind of keeping a lot of the same horses and same pieces together this should be your division unless Joe Burrow gets hurt again that's another thing keeping me awake at night, but I just didn't even want to say it out loud.

58:49Yeah, no real need to mention that. I think it goes without saying. Yeah, I think that's always in the back of your mind. Before we get to the Steelers, let's take one more quick break.

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1:01:09Get to the Pittsburgh Steelers, our preview for the 2026 Steelers. They're offseason in 60 seconds. Mike McCarthy in as the head coach. Patrick Graham in as the defensive coordinator. Traded for Michael Pittman? Didn't they trade for Michael Pittman? Traded for Michael Pittman. Signed Jamel Dean, Rico Dowdle, and Jaquan Brisker. Lost Isaac Sayamalu, Kenny Gainwell, and James Pierre in free agency. In the draft, Max Ahanashore in the first round, Jeremy Bernard in the second round, Jennings Dunker, Drew Aller, and Dalen Everett all in the third round. A lot of third round picks for the Steelers this year.

1:01:40Derek, what are you most excited about for the 2026 Pittsburgh Steelers? We talked about it on the new Play Caller show, but Patrick Graham with this collection of defensive talent, you know, it's a little bit similar to the Minter thing to me, right? Where like Minter was able to do so much with fine talent. And I think what Patrick Graham had been able to do for years at different teams with kind of so-so talent, Even less than that, obviously, last year, I think, with the Raiders has been always really impressive. And now you have a Steelers team that I know they're a little bit older, but like Jalen Ramsey is still a good player.

1:02:12Joey Porter, if they figure out the contract thing, really good player. Their defensive front is mean. Like, I just I'm really excited about what this can look like. And also compared to last year for Patrick Graham, having some of the inhibitors taken off. Like, I think last year he was calling the defense a little bit under the Pete Carroll vision because, you know, Pete Carroll was obviously there. I think this year, I think under the duress of both the staff and the talent and the talent, the rest are multiple front on multiple fronts. Yeah, like Pete Carroll was probably telling me to load the box a little bit more.

1:02:41And also the fact that like he just didn't have players was like, all right, we got to at least stop the run. And so I think that that was just he's always been a little bit more of a kind of like blitz happy, funky fronts playing a little bit more man coverage than he really did last year. And I think that the talent that he has here in Pittsburgh, I do think that they are fit for it um and so i'm just excited about what it's gonna look like also one quick player shout out on top of all the star players there daniko slaughter who is i think the backup nickel for them because it's probably going to be jalen ramsey he's been playing with the ones in the preseason that dude is a dog he is it like whether it's like run blitzing like he had a really nice play on like a deep outbreaker like that dude is nasty and so if he has to play at any point in this season i'm really excited to watch him this is the first time i mean the First and only time on a national football podcast, you're going to be hearing about Danico Slaughter in August.

1:03:30What are you most excited about? Danico Slaughter. The backup nickel. First time for now. He'll have his moment. Is there a bigger gap in overall quality when you look at interior defensive line rooms with the Steelers and the Raiders? Buddy, maybe not. Because we just talked about, like, are the Raiders as bad as anybody? And the Steelers, I mean... Even if like Hayward's a little bit older and Harmon's not perfect, like this is way better than he's had. Just it's going to be hard to move these people compared to what the Raiders were dealing with. And so I'm with you. This was mine as well. I think the defensive front talent, I'm very excited to watch.

1:04:12You got three edge guys. I think those guys we moved around a little bit more. We always say that about TJ Watt. I do think it's going to happen a little bit more this year. You know, Keanu Benton just signed that contract. Derek Harmon is still like a, I think, Like, you don't feel some of the disruption that you saw with him at Oregon, but he's still a very strong, space-eating player. Yaya Black is going to play for them as a nose. Like, there's just so many bodies they can cycle through there. And so I'm excited to see this defensive talent with Patrick Graham. And you said it, Derek, 17.4 % man coverage last year for the Raiders, which was 31st in the NFL.

1:04:47That's not how he wants to play. He's a New England guy. Like if it were up to him, if he had his druthers, he'd be playing a shitload of man coverage. They are set up to do that. They are set up to play that way. It's how the Steelers have been playing. Man with some cover two change-ups, I think, is Patrick Graham's ideal world. And the Steelers can do that. And you think about just the way they had to load the box last year in Las Vegas, that's not going to happen because of the front talent that he has. And so this is the first time we've seen Patrick Graham in years as a defensive coordinator with a level of defensive talent where it's like, all right, not how can you get by, but what can you really be?

1:05:28What heights can you reach with the players that you have here? I am very excited to watch what that can look like. The Steelers defense having Steelers defense potential again. Very exciting. For me, I'm going to let my inner draft Nick come out. I adore Omar Khan's stubborn insistence on nailing the offensive line. I like to imagine him in the war room saying, I said, get another one. And everybody's like, oh, but shouldn't I get a receiver Omar? Like, what should we? No, they draft Maxi and not sure. Like two years after going Broderick Jones and Troy Foutonu back to back. Don't care. Get another one in here.

1:06:05Broderick Jones hasn't really worked out. We'll get another first round tackle. And the offensive line loaded might be a stretch, but there's so much promise and so much potential. here and I love it when somebody I respect confirms my priors because our friend respected here Brandon Thorne you see his project where he ranked the the entire entirety of the offensive lineman in the league it's incredible you should go check it out for Bleacher Report Brandon has Troy Fatanu as his number 10 left tackle in the NFL heading into this season in the same exercise this is one I was really pumped about because I've long been an admirer of Zach Frazier.

1:06:45Center two in the NFL behind Creed Humphrey. And then Mason McCormick is like a mid-tier guard. Dylan Cook, who stepped in admirably at times last year, he's ranked 28th among left tackles and Broderick Jones even hasn't been good for Broderick Jones, but still 34th among 40 graded left tackles heading into this season. Steelers have a lot of talent here. And then you add Maxie and Adjord to this. I am enamored with the idea that when the Steelers do have their quarterback of the future, he's going to be playing behind a mammoth of a unit. And that's, I'm excited to see how those guys grow and develop.

1:07:22I mean, Frazier and to a lesser degree, Fautanu have already kind of arrived, but how much more can you take it? Like, I want Zach Frazier to be more of a household name. I think this is the year where that can happen. I agree. I think this is the year where that can happen, because I think that unit has a chance to impress some people, and then that's how the drumbeat starts. Hanushoor is tough. He got hurt. During training camp. He's back though. I know he did get hurt. He missed time. And I think for him specifically, you, the talent is obvious and the talent was obvious to them physically, but he's just still so inexperienced that missing any bit of time was going to make it harder for him to get on the field early.

1:07:58So I wonder when we see him. I'm not expecting to see him quickly because again, cook and Roger Jones, you have two options. I don't think we see Roger Jones. I think if Dylan cook gets hurt, a Honda short place, regardless, I don't think we're going to see him early, but in November, December, for some reason, are we excited because he's pancaking the shit out of people? I can't wait to find out. That group coming together with him getting some late season run, I think, would be a little bit of optimism heading into the season, no matter how this ends for the Steelers, which we'll get to here in a little bit.

1:08:32Yeah, I also think an underrated thing about the offensive line, you know, Fautano had mostly played a lot of right tackle. And so the fact that he's like so locked into left tackle now, which is his his native position in college, I'm that just it's very exciting. One more thing I wanted to add, too, because it ties in together with the offensive line. Rico Dowdle and Jalen Warren's a really underrated duo of running backs to be going behind what I think is going to be a pretty damn good offensive line. Yeah, the Kenny Gainwell, Kenny Gainwell had a really nice season. Really nice season. But the Kenny Gainwell, Jalen Warren pairing was always kind of strange.

1:09:07I think the Rico Donald Jalen Warren pairing does make a little bit more sense if you're trying to put that room together I mean part of the reason obviously is that Caleb Johnson just never turned into the guy they hoped Caleb Johnson would be they thought they had a big body downhill runner last year it turns out they did not nothing has ever not happened faster and then yeah he was he muffed that one like kickoff in the preseason game it was over it was completely over but Rico Donald you know he's an imperfect player he's mostly a rundown player but like there was a point in the year I think he was leading the NFL in a rushing yards last year when the Panthers offensive line was healthier so like if the Steelers offensive line is like what the Panthers offensive line was early in the year which I think they absolutely have the talent to be that or better all right Rico Dowell can just go mash people for four quarters and I think that that could be a viable way to offense Rico is one of 12 running backs over the last two years with 50 plus explosive rushes and then Jalen Warren I think most people think highly of him I think both of Rico and Warren, I just think fantasy depresses your opinion of them because it's very hit or miss on a week to week basis what they're going to do.

1:10:10But they're both good players. And if this offensive line is as good as I think it'll be, that that should be a lot of fun. Dave, what are you watching over the first month of the season with these Pittsburgh Steelers? I'll be honest. This wasn't on my radar until the last three or four days. What the hell's going on with Joey Porter Jr., man? Impass. Yeah. that's the direct quote from Mike McCarthy. Never want to hear that. By the way, Mike McCarthy says, you know, I understand there's, there's a business side and a football side, and we're kind of at an impasse. And then Jalen Ramsey and Patrick queen are talking about how the Steelers need to pay Joey Porter jr.

1:10:44What he's worth. Not, not what you want to hear. If you're trying to get excited about the Steelers defense, achieving a new ceiling in 2026, I do want to shout out as long as I'm shouting out friends and colleagues, Brooke Pryor over at ESPN had a very interesting nugget to me. She mentioned in her story about this that the Steelers just longstanding, not surprising because they're one of the old original families of NFL ownership. They don't typically do deals after the season starts, which puts a pretty firm deadline on when this can get done. And despite that fact, there's been no progress on talks, even though Porter basically hasn't had a training camp.

1:11:22and she also said the Steelers have not made or even received calls. Why is nobody calling if the Steelers, if the head coach is willing to say on the record that we're at an impasse, why is nobody calling? And what does that mean about what Joey Porter Jr. wants? What's he asking for if nobody's calling? I mean, we just saw some pretty significant leaps in the cornerback market, and I assume he wants to get in on the fun. Whether he should or whether he's worth that, I think, is the conversation. According to Brooke Pryor, Porter said in June that he feels like he's been the lead guy since he's been in the league.

1:11:59So look at the numbers at the top of the cornerback market. I think mystery solved, but we got two and a half weeks till the season, and a pretty big piece of this thing is not participating, and that worries me. Yeah, that whole man coverage plan is a little bit less scary if Joey Porter Jr. isn't involved. It's a little bit dependent on having like the second or third best press man corner in the league. And I will say, I think what makes probably the calls thing complicated, I mean, there should be some amount of calls. And he's an incredible player. Like somebody should be at least poking around at what it costs.

1:12:31I do think, though, he's probably in a weird position where if he's asking for like elite, truly top of the market money, if you're going to have to trade assets for him and then pay him that, I only really want to do that if it's like Patrick Sertan or Derek Stingley. And I think when you're like a tier-ish below that, I just get a little bit scared about leveraging whatever it might cost to go and do that. Like if it costs you the Sauce Gardner trade in terms of assets and then you got to pay him, I'm like, man, I don't know. That just feels like a lot, even for a player that I really like. That's part of the argument for this.

1:13:04I don't think it will take you two ones, but part of the argument, I think, with the Sauce Gardner trade, even if we can all agree that they probably shouldn't have done that and wouldn't do it again, he'd already been paid. Yeah. So you're getting like a relative discount with the sauce Gardner trade in part because you don't have to pay out any bonuses and the market has already settled and has exploded since after you had already accounted for that money. So it's something that's absolutely worth mentioning. Derek, what do you watch in the first month of the season with the Pittsburgh Steelers?

1:13:32I'm just curious if this offense has some sort of other different gear, because I think obviously last year Aaron Rodgers is what he is. the offense is going to be limited in some capacity in what it's able to do. But obviously, like also the receiver talent last year was just terrible. It was like DK Metcalf and then like Ben Skoranek or Roman Wilson, who I still think didn't really have like a super role. Adam Thielen at his stage in the career. Yes, like this is what they were working with. Now they trade for Michael Pittman, who is, I think, a completely solid starting wide receiver, who they can move around a little bit, which I think helps them when I expect them to play more 11 personnel 11 you know more three wide receiver sets it's what McCarthy does it's what Rodgers had always liked and then they drafted Jeremy Bernard who I think is a little bit more like you want to spit the ball out to him but again they didn't have a whole lot of that last year outside of being able to do that out of the backfield and so the fact that they have a receiver now who I think can do that and he's looked good in the preseason like he just defenders just bounce off of him he does have like a way with like he's not he's not really elite at anything but like people just miss when they're trying to tackle him.

1:14:33And I do think, yes, just a useful NFL player. So the fact that they've added two of those guys to the room, I think that that, I just, they don't have to be elite, but they were like 15th in DVOA last year. It's not a bad offense. I don't think there's any world where they're elite, but can that creep up to a really boring and ugly 10th in DVOA? I do wonder if that's possible. We'll talk about whether that's possible. I don't think the receiver talent was ultimately was going to determine that personally. I wanted to say this when you ran through the offseason, though. I hear you. And I know he got a new deal as part of it.

1:15:08Getting Michael Pittman Jr. for a swap of sixth and seventh round picks is ridiculous. He's going to get cut. I mean, I know, but that's what I'm saying. Like, he's a better player than that. I understand the considerations that go into it. Like, I'm with Derek. I know Rodgers is going to be a big piece of that, but I really like this Steelers receiver score. I totally agree. I like everything about the Steelers, except through their play and it. If they had anybody else, we're stepping on with keeping you up at night. Let's just save it. The Roman Wilson part of this is also interesting. You know, he, they had, he'd been battling with Jeremy Bernard for that third receiver spot early in training camp and even in the middle part of training camp, it's kind of been an uneven preseason for him, but they're very different players.

1:15:49And so just having Roman Wilson is like a vertical slot option and Jeremy Bernard being more of like an underwork dirty work underneath dirty work guy. I do think there are complementary skill sets between those two guys. I think we'll see all four of them. But yeah, it's a drastically improved receiving room. The thing I'm looking, just looking at watching very quickly, what does the offense even look like? Like, what does this version of the Mike McCarthy offense look like? And what I, the element of that that I find most curious is that Brian Angelico came over as his offensive coordinator.

1:16:18Brian Angelico was on the Packers staff for two to three years when Mike McCarthy was there. but he has spent a lot of time in the Shanahan world outside of that. He was in Cleveland with Kyle Shanahan in 2014, 2015. And then he was with the Vikings over the last few years as their, I think tight ends coach and maybe passing game coordinator. But there is a lot of stuff that is not necessarily native to the Mike McCarthy offense, wide zone, under center, tons of motion. That's never really who Mike McCarthy has been. Even if you look back at like the 23 Cowboys, when they were doing a little bit more of that stuff.

1:16:53It always felt like they were like cosplaying as that. Like, it's like, oh, that looks cool. Let's do some of that. And I think that's part of the reason it ran out of gas is that it was not a native part of who they were trying to be offensively. And I think that you felt them kind of, it was harder to keep tapping into that. Having somebody who really comes from that world and believes in it and is like, no, we're gonna do some of this stuff. I'm curious what that version of a Mike McCarthy offense looks like because we really haven't seen that. I mean, his staffs when he was in Dallas is a lot of Green Bay guys.

1:17:27It's a lot of like, let's get the band back together. This might feel a little bit different in that specific area. All right, you ready for it? You ready for the conversation? Let's do it. Dave, what is keeping you up at night about the 2026 Pittsburgh Steelers? The thought of being someone's wildcard weekend sacrificial lamb for the fourth year in a row and wondering what we're all doing. I totally forgot they made the playoffs last year. They made the, yeah, exactly. You would be forgiven, by the way. It's four, three years in a row. And what, like five of the last six years, they've made the playoffs and they have lost those games by double digits every time.

1:18:07And I, what keeps me awake at night is going through, it's such a long season. And like, I was the one, you know, Rogers had a handful of moments last year that I thought were really fun. The defense found itself at those three throws. Now one Ravens game. Well, we'll never forget them. He did. He had some moments. Okay. Even the year before that, Russell Wilson gave him a shot in the arm. And I was like, maybe, maybe Russ can play well enough. And like over the course of a season, you can talk yourself into all this bullshit. And then there we are in early January, watching them get trounced.

1:18:41And what keeps me awake at night is doing this for, five months for the fourth year in a row and wondering why we did it when it's over my short term what's keeping me up at night rogers is not good enough as the rest of the roster shows promise he's just not good enough and that that's kind of where i sit with this until proven otherwise the way that he plays the position right now is not viable for you to be like a serious offense no not not to be like a if if like the best version of what it's supposed to be is like can you just squeak into the afc championship game somehow how he plays currently that's not on the table it's just not possible i i 100 % agree like i just it's not even a matter of like physically he still has it he just is not playing the position in a way that allows you to be a certain thing offensively like just the sheer not when i don't we can go through all the numbers if you want to the sheer number of throws beneath the six, how quickly the ball is coming out, the throws that he's choosing to make it's, it's go balls or it's one-on-ones like that.

1:19:48That is what he is choosing to do. And it's been that way for multiple years now. This is not just last season. It was like this with the jets. And so I just don't have any reason to think another year older, another year of not wanting to be hit is going to make this thing look any better. So that the short term is he's just not good enough to justify all of the relative excitement we have about other areas of this roster. The long term is this team wins nine games and you send yourself back into purgatory. Where it's not just being the wildcard weekend sacrificial lamb where you're being offered up to the Texans.

1:20:24It's you're just good enough to be in a spot next spring where it's like, who is going to be the quarterback for this team? Maybe it's Drew Aller. That's what we're going to have to bank on fine right like maybe that is a viable thing how many third round picks that are projects end up becoming guys that you're able to roll with when the rest of your roster feels like it's ready to win and that's my concern it's just this is a long bigger picture existential dread thing as it relates to this team and i think it's totally justifiable to think existentially with the steelers because we've done this like what and those dudes are old what seriously what do we I know y 'all y 'all just talked about sneaking into the AFC title game like what do you realistically think the ceiling is because I even I had a moment while I was prepping and Derek highlighted everything that's excited about patch exciting about Patrick Graham and I found myself thinking well if Patrick Graham can just unlock a higher level from this defense you were sixth in defensive DVOA in 2023 and eighth in defensive DVOA in 2024 how much better is it realistically going to get?

1:21:30I think it can be more resilient. That to me is the argument. It's not even about overall quality over the course of the season. It's do you have a little bit more optionality? Are you harder to pin down? Are you less predictable? Are you a little bit more dynamic and varied? I do think that's real. Over the course of a season, they could end up in the exact same spot. Are they food in the playoffs? Because that's what's happened is that they've been good over the course of the season because they have this level of talent. And then we get into the playoffs where you have a Todd Monken or somebody else that can be like, all right, here are the five things I'm just going to hammer over and over and over again.

1:22:06They're not going to have an answer. And I think that is potentially the biggest change about this defense. It's not where the numbers look like by the end of the year. It's how vulnerable do they feel against the real teams and the real quarterbacks in the most important games. It doesn't, regardless, doesn't feel like enough to go beyond. I don't think so either. Like divisional round as the absolute ceiling. That's what I was. I think there's a world where, you know, Dave, I think you actually framed it perfectly. We're like for three years now, when they get into the playoffs, they're the worst team in the AFC.

1:22:34And whoever they play, you are not picking the other team or you are picking the other team. You're not picking the Pittsburgh Steelers. I think that there's a chance that they are a little bit better than that this year. But my like what is keeping me up at night is kind of splitting the difference between long term and short term. Like what if this old roster, Robert, like you just talked about, just falls apart? Like T.J. Watt is old. Cam Hayward. it's kind of a miracle he's continuing the defense is old the offense is young and the quarterback outside of the quarterback the defense is old right the defense is old and you need them to be good Jamel Dean is not necessarily old but he's hurt all the time the same is true of Jaquan Brisker and then you just mentioned it the quarterback is 58 years old and so I just think that there's a chance that if those guys kind of fall apart and it starts to wither away that sucks for the short term right because then you're just like this year is kind of nothing and it kind of hurts for the long term a little bit because then it's like I just feel like you end up in a weird position where it's like this version of the roster as old as it is with Rogers there this is kind of your chance right now to do it and I think next year is going to have to be some sort of reset so if you don't do it now it just feels like you don't have any sort of momentum moving forward I just think if you're a Steelers fan the worst case scenario here is that you signed up for the Mike McCarthy experience and you put yourself back into the exact same world that you just lived in with Mike Tomlin for too long.

1:23:55That to me is what would be keeping me up at night. By the way, Derek, Jamel Dean isn't old. Jamel Dean will turn 30 in October. He's a third contract corner. He's not young. And so you look at it, there are a lot of important pieces of this defense and expensive pieces of this defense that are very much, a lot closer to the end of their careers than they are to the prime of their careers. And so there is a chance that next year they can turn a lot of this stuff over. If Cam Hayward moves on and they figure out something with TJ Watt, they decide to keep Highsmith instead of Watt. They have Herberg, a lot of the young defensive tackles.

1:24:31They have young pieces there. They can get young in a hurry if they want to and turn the page. But then we're having an entirely different conversation. It's no longer the Pittsburgh Steelers as we understand them. I almost forgot to do what does success mean for the Steelers because we're so mired in what the existential dread part of this looks like. Like, Derek, what a success for the 2026 Pittsburgh Steelers. I mean, I think the fact that we almost skipped it kind of says it all. But I genuinely do think that, like, I talked about it a little bit. Success is just not being the team that feels like the automatic win in the playoffs.

1:25:02Like, if you go into it and you at least feel like the Steelers have more of a fighting chance than they did last year, that's probably success. I don't think the ceiling is super high here. I think that's right. I think do you when we on wildcard weekend, if that's where they're playing, are we excited about the Steelers game? Do we find it interesting? Do we find it compelling? Do we think they have a shot? Is it not just like an obligatory thing we have to put on the TV for three hours? Because that's what it is felt like over the last couple of years. I'm going to keep it existential. And I think in a good way, you might say it's bad because I'm sort of I'm writing the Steelers off for the year.

1:25:37but it's easy to imagine a world where we're so excited about the 2027. I think that's right. I actually think that is real successes. If like I said, if the offensive line whips ass and the running backs go buck wild and the receiver core is awesome and all your points about the defense are fair and who knows how many of those guys will be there next year. But if Patrick Graham lays the foundation for this being a really good, solid defense and you're basically just like if we're plopping a competent young quarterback into this thing we could go somewhere and maybe that's drew allar or maybe it's mac jones or maybe it's a guy you trade for you don't have to figure that out right now but if this looks like it could be a really kick-ass team when aaron rogers retires and you get off this ride and look to get younger and and better at quarterback i think that's a successful season i do too i actually think that's right.

1:26:32Like at this point, the playoffs is whatever. We've done that six out of the last seven years. Give me a reason to think the Steelers could be a Super Bowl contender in 27 and beyond. I think that's successful. I think you're right. I think that is more important than whatever the playoff success or the playoff performance looks like for the Steelers. Get to our last one here. The Cleveland Browns, our preview for the 2026 Cleveland Browns, their offseason in 60 seconds. Hire Todd Monken is their head coach. Mike Rutenberg is their defensive coordinator, signed Zion Johnson, Elton Jenkins, Quincy Williams in free agency, traded for Titus Howard, just signed Derek Barnett.

1:27:08$5 million for Derek Barnett. That was like two weeks ago. Lost Devin Bush, Wyatt Teller, Ethan Posich in free agency, drafted Spencer Fano, Casey Concepcion, Denzel Boston, Emmanuel McNeil Warren, Austin Barber in the third round. Did you mention Derek Barnett's there because Alex Wright's out for the year? Oh, we'll talk about it. Okay. Just making sure. We'll talk about it. As somebody who drafted the Browns, I'm not very happy about it. A little less good. Not happy. Derek, what are you most excited about with the 2026 Cleveland Browns? Well, Dave, I'm going to try to get your spirits back up.

1:27:40I still think this defense is insanely talented. And obviously, you know, you're swapping out Myles Garrett for Jared Verse, who, again, Jared Verse, to reiterate, is still a top 10 edge defender himself, even if he's not Myles Garrett. And so this is this is Carson Swessinger. This is like 98 percent Carson Swessinger is what's coming out of Derek's mouth. I think he's making a lot of good points. Keep going, Derek. I mean, you do have Carson Swessinger who, listen, I truly think that by the end of the year, if he's the guy that we're talking about behind Fred Warner, I, that is, that is, I would say more likely than not.

1:28:11Like, I really believe that he has that level of talent. More likely than not. I think he's incredible. He's, I said it when we talked about. He's awesome. I don't even remember when, when I said this, maybe I said it for second year breakouts or something like that. He's already broken out. But like, he, he really is the only linebacker that I've seen. he's the only linebacker that I've seen since Fred Warner where I'm like that guy moves like Fred Warner and so I and he's big like I just I believe in the talent even if he's I would like to see him get a little bit stronger taking on blocks but he's still a good player even outside outside of all of his very well-researched analytical analysis Derek just goes and he's big he's he's a he's a big he's a big boy he makes a lot of plays that way um so they've got that they bring back Quincy Williams who we talked about in the play caller show played really well with Mike Rutenberg in New York and so I think that that can be like really nice for them the defensive line does have talent like Mason Graham there's a chance that he takes another step Malik Collins is back and practicing and if people don't remember when Malik Collins was healthy last year he was like the most explosive destructive defensive tackle in the NFL he was incredible last season yeah it was unbelievable watching him and then I still think the secondary is fairly talented and so So like this to me, just like they've got talent all across the board.

1:29:25Even if edge depth is a little bit of a concern now that Alex Wright is going to miss the season. I just think they've got dudes at all three levels. And I'm relatively like my interest is peaked in what Mike Rukenberg might do at this defense. I feel like losing Alex Wright, it was funny when I was there. We're talking, I was talking to somebody just about the idea of them having to manufacture a little bit more pressure in a world where they don't have Miles Garrett. And the thought was like, let's just say we lost Jared Verse for any stretch of time. in with when jib schwartz was there it was just kind of like a rush four or even rush five and play a little bit of man that's what you were going to do they weren't like a heavy blitz team when jib schwartz was there they don't have to be when miles garrett's on the team i think mike rudenberg is a coach that if they needed to manufacture a little bit more pressure you look at what they did in atlanta last year where they did have to live that way the amount of zone they're playing behind it just the variability behind the blitzes the ram the browns last year played more man coverage behind when they blitzed any team in the league i think that there's just going to be a wider menu of stuff behind the pressure looks in a Mike Rutenberg world.

1:30:27And already without Alex, right, you're going to have to start tapping into that stuff. And so I think that is part of the optimistic case for why this defense, even without Miles Garrett, can just feel still dangerous and dynamic because they're going to be doing different things than they did last year. Even if there's a lot of carryover with the DNA that I think allows the players to still be comfortable up front, language, techniques, everything else. Stephenson line coach is the same. There's still enough carryover where there's continuity and scheme, but I think there's a little bit more diversity on the back end to just give teams a little bit more trouble in some of those situations, hopefully.

1:31:02And I think it's pure preseason optimism, but if I was a Browns fan, you're hoping that you haven't seen close to the best from Mason Graham to this point. Yes. Like if he ascends, it's crazy. With the amount of studs that they found in last year's draft, Graham was the first one off the board and he's the one that you're kind of waiting on and if he takes any sort of step this year that that makes me feel much better we've talked about this a couple times over the course of the summer that attack front it takes a while for guys to get used to playing that way especially if you've never done it before and Mason Graham is a perfect example of that I think in the back half of last season he was getting a little bit more comfortable with that play style and I think that they expect him to take a step there and the other guy like he was a throw-in in some ways with the trade Jared versus an incredibly good football player Jared Verse is really f***ing good.

1:31:51The reason that the Browns made the Miles Garrett trade isn't because they wanted some picks for Miles Garrett. Jared Verse is the thing that pushed that thing over because now you raise the floor of what the trade can be. If you get five first-round picks for Miles Garrett and none of those hit, it's a disaster. Now the trade can only look so bad even if you miss out on those picks because you know what Jared Verse is. The fact that Jared Verst is a good enough player that you feel comfortable trading Myles Garrett, I think speaks to what Jared Verst already is. That's actually a really good way to frame it.

1:32:25I hadn't thought about that because, I mean, the Browns are notorious for getting two and three first round picks in years. And they're like, it doesn't really amount to anything. But when you bring in a guy like Jared Verst, where unless he gets injured over the next handful of years, he is a top 10 edge player for probably a long time. The trade really only can look so bad. That's a really good way to frame it. he didn't turn 25 until this sometime this season we talked about it over the summer dave what are you most excited about watching with the cleveland browns it is i would say probable not even possible it is probable that last year set my expectations too high but when you do what the browns did in last year's draft i mean you you found a future all pro caliber guy in derrick and i's opinion and carson swessinger you redo the tight end room You find a really fun tight end in Harold Fannin.

1:33:14The running back room is completely revamped. You have two. And so to get all of those guys, and like I said, you're still, hopefully Mason Graham has more to show you in year two, to have all of that from one year and then you turn around and have two first round draft picks and a top 40 pick in Denzel Boston, all three of those guys are expected to start. I mean, that's half your starting lineup in big time draft picks over the last two years that you have sky high sky high expectations for. It's not fair that I'm over the moon about Spencer Fano, Casey Concepcion and Denzel Boston, mainly because of what the rookie class last year did.

1:33:56But if it's even close, if they're even close to as impactful early as last year's rookies were, this is an incredibly exciting team by the end of twenty twenty. six. My just a young pass catchers. Like it's, it's involved in that. That was your favorite. I love Fano, but I just, I'm excited to watch the pass catchers. I'd let, I'll, I'll, I will, I'll embrace exactly what you're saying. Well, I will agree with you. All the young players. Give me, give me all the young players. There's so many of them. My, my two favorite players in this draft, the Browns drafted both of them, Spencer Fano and Casey Concepcion.

1:34:27And so the fact that both of those guys are going to be part of this in week one, I'm really excited about that. The Denzel Boston hype has been crazy during training camp. this collection of pass catchers with those two guys and Fannin, Fannin was incredible last year. And so you add Fano to that mix, the young defensive players, that is why this team is worth watching. I'm curious with the pass catching spots, like how it all comes together, because I just don't know what Fannin's role looks like in an offense where you have these options. Like they did so many schemed up touches for him last year.

1:34:58And maybe Concepcion only takes some of those, But I just wonder how the role shake out. And I don't think they know the answer to that right now. And the other like kind of nerdy specific thing is I don't know what without Njoku to eat some of those inline snaps and you can move Fannin around. What is his role look like? Because they do not have an inline player right now. They drafted Joe Royer in the fifth round. He has not practiced. And Blake Whitehart right now is like their other option is an inline blocker. And so if you don't feel good about having an inline, why, what does that mean for Fannin's role?

1:35:33How much 11 personnel can you play with him as the tight end? That it's, it's a fun collection of players. I just don't know how it all comes together cohesively. And I think that's the only thing holding me back from being just overly excited about it. Sounds like something you want to watch in the first month of the season. That is, I probably should have included that. What are you watching in the first month of the season, Dave, when it comes to this Cleveland Browns team? I remember talking about it in March, but it's wild the way the Browns are just microwaving an entirely new offensive line.

1:36:03Yeah. Like to bring the whole thing in. I think Tevin Jenkins is the lone holdover from last year's offensive line. And obviously Spencer Fano is the big name there because he's the top 10 pick, which really encouraging in the preseason. He was going against the Bears. So that's probably. well he was baptized by fire in the first two weeks in the first week and a half okay that's a great point having to play against jared verse when your biggest question mark is overall play strength is a very good early test was it i think it was i think it was fano who said in early august i've been practicing against the best football player i've ever played in my life for two weeks straight jared verse made teron armstead quit playing in the nfl could you imagine if your first taste of NFL football was having to play against that guy like 30 times a day.

1:36:52So not only did he look really good against the Bears, the Browns did not play him in the Bills game. Too good. They just sat him out. Yeah, too good. No need. We've seen what we needed to see. Incredible stuff. So I assume it's going to be Fano, Zion Johnson, Elton Jenkins, Tevin Jenkins, and Titus Howard. I think that's right. How's it? How quickly does that come together? What is Fano's learning curve in the regular season? How do four guys that have never played together coalesce and how quickly does it happen? And on top of that, I don't expect the quarterback play to be very good. And so how, how do we parse the performance of the offensive line in a less than ideal quarterbacking situation?

1:37:35Like, are they good, but they look bad because of the quarterback play? Are they outright good? Is it shakier than that? It's something to watch. I think it has to be better than it was last year. That's like the first place my mind goes. A high bar. But it was so bad last year. And so I think people are looking at this and be like, man, so many new moving pieces. What can we expect from the Browns offensive line? World's better than it was a year ago. Last year, Cam Robinson played 700 snaps for this team. K.J. Levinson, who's a backup guard now, was a tackle who played 650 snaps for this team last year.

1:38:10They were so banged up. They've been so banged up. So I think we have this idea of the Browns offensive line in our minds where it's like, oh, Wyatt Teller and Joel Petonio and all of this. We have not seen that version of this offensive line in a really long time. Teller missed four games last year. Petonio played every single snap. But for the most part, this has been a devastated group. So even if there's a lot of turnover, even if you have a rookie at left tackle, I still think it's just going to be a significantly improved overall unit from what we've typically been watching with this team.

1:38:41And I think just specifically at tackle, you feel like you have competency here, right? Like the fact that Fano was as good a prospect as he was and has looked pretty good in the preseason. And then Titus Howard over at right tackle. Like it's those two positions that the bookends have really been the part that I think has been the most revolving door for them. Especially since Jack Conklin really started getting hurt a couple of handful of years ago. Like the fact that that feels more stable now, I do think should go a long way for them. In terms of baptism by fire, though, do you know who they get in week one?

1:39:08They get the Jaguars. So Spencer Fano getting Josh Heinz Allen and Trayvon Walker week one is like, all right, man, let's see. Let's see if you're up for it. I do think he will be, but that is a hell of a week one for him. It's Tampa right after that. So those two red rushers followed by whatever Todd Bowles is going to draw up for you. Speaking of blitz happy defensive coaches, Derek, what do you watch in the first month of the season with the Cleveland Browns? I mean, yeah, we can kind of sprint through it because we did this on the play caller show. But for me, it really is just like, what does the defense look like and how different is it going to be?

1:39:42And like you said, I think a lot of the front structure and language and stuff, a lot of that should be the same. It should be a lot of attacking stuff. I just think on passing downs, this thing is going to look a little bit different. And, you know, Jim Schwartz, you mentioned a little bit earlier, a lot more man. And his changeup really was always like cover two. He just loved to get some weird cover two stuff. That's what he liked to do. The tree that Rutenberg is coming from, they really don't play a lot of cover two. They play a little bit less man and they play a lot more quarters, especially on early downs, which if you're playing it with match principles, it does become man.

1:40:12And so that's more what I expect to see because that's still how you want to use these corners. That's still what Denzel Ward does best. That's still what Tyson Campbell still does best. And so I think it's going to look a little bit different. And how much growing pain do we get in the first four to six weeks where I think every team is really trying to figure out what they want to be and what they want to call? I think that's what I'm most interested in with this team. The one curiosity I have, I agree with all of that. I'm really interested to see what it looks like because I just think that Falcon staff did such a good job last year with their talent of getting the most out of that group.

1:40:45I'm just curious what Emmanuel McNeil Warren's role is going to look like. I asked when I was there and they were keeping that pretty close to the vest. Is he somebody that we see in a nickel role when they're playing some big nickel stuff? How fast do we see him as a starting safety? I just haven't been able to find a lot about what the exact plan for him is going to look like and how early we're going to see that plan come together. So that's another just kind of curiosity thing I have about the defense. I because his role has been so under wraps and at training camp, I didn't even think about him among the rookies and young players, but throw him on the pile.

1:41:18There are so many big time draft picks that I want to watch. i i mean it sounds like they're keeping this close to the vest but did you hear anything about like if they want to do some stuff about getting mcneil warren on the field like delpit maybe playing some of the big nickel because he's a player who i think is really good in the box i don't know if that's something that they would ask him to do i didn't know i literally asked a specific question about it and it was kind of one of those like we're going to keep that to ourselves and so i i don't have any information about that which it's really one of the only things that even like in a background conversation i was somebody was just like now i'm good i was like all right sounds Sounds good.

1:41:51I guess we'll all find out together when we're going to see from Emanuel McNeil Warren this year. The last thing I'll say about just curiosities, things we're excited about, we have not really mentioned this at all. Todd Monken is already a singular personality as an NFL head coach. Sure is. So I just, a man that will say anything. And I think somebody that, the comparison I made even when he was hired is, if this goes well, it's just Bruce Arians. And I do think that they are the closest comparisons in the sense of 62-year-old guy, deep into their careers, doesn't give a about any of this stuff in terms of like what he should be saying and how he should be operating.

1:42:30And so I'm just curious to see how that goes. It could be, it could go off the rails pretty fast. It wasn't a great start in terms of how this whole quarterback situation was handled, but I'm interested in it because there's really no head coach in the league quite like Todd Monk. I clearly like just over the last, from the, from the time he was hired, going back to the combine. And obviously it hasn't always been fun with what we've been dealing with the quarterback situation in Cleveland. But that's when I see a Todd Monken clip come across my timeline, I'm going to unmute and see what he has to say, which I don't do that for every head coach in the league.

1:43:07At the very least, Todd Monken is 60 years old. Decent retirement package. I mean, if that's it, and Todd's kind of riding into the sunset after this, I think I think it's going to be OK. Fire me. Fine. Sweet, sweet. Buy out. What is keeping you up at night, Derek, about the 2026 Cleveland Browns? The quarterback might the quarterbacks might sink in otherwise pretty interesting offense. And I think more than obviously, I don't think the results for this year really matter. But I do think that there's a chance that it's so bad and it's so naughty that we're not really we're not as confident as we want to be that the 2027 Browns are like the spot to be in and I do think that that's where this gets and it goes back to what Dave was saying about the offensive line too like if the quarterback play is so bad that we it's a little bit hard to untangle how good or bad the offensive line is because the quarterbacks are just putting them in such a bad position I think that's where this becomes like a really freaky season the quarterback discourse in general also just the week-to-week process of how that's going to go sucking every ounce of joy out of what otherwise could be a somewhat exciting season yes yeah and on on top of that the idea that the quarterback play in cleveland could leave us confused about how good all these young players are or or you know if i don't come in here on a Sunday night dying to talk about what Denzel Boston did, that's sad.

1:44:41If Denzel Boston's just doing cardio and Casey Concepcion's just doing cardio all year and Spencer Fano's fighting for his life because the quarterback play is not good, that's just sad for everybody in addition to how toxic this is going to be. And it will be for a variety of reasons. So, yeah, I can't say I'm looking forward to it. And I think that brings me into what a success for the 2026 Cleveland Browns is that excitement about the young core maintained throughout the season. But when we get to the end of this year, are we in a spot where you're looking at a collection of guys, Judkins, Swessinger, Graham, Fannin, Fano, Concepcion, Boston, McNeil-Wern, you're like, man, there is a really exciting, promising group of young players here.

1:45:28And we get to the end of the year and all that other bullshit didn't do enough to completely sap whatever optimism you have about what this group can look like moving forward if we find ourselves excited by the end of this season about what the browns young players look like if we find ourselves in a conversation on jill on december 15th being like man you look at the 2026 quarterback or 2027 quarterback carousel and the guys are going to be available in the draft and the browns have a top five pick and imagine name a college quarterback arch manning yes Dante Moore Dante Moore imagine Dante Moore with this group of players what can this look like if that's the conversation we're having after the college football season has wrapped up and we're transitioning to draft time that to me is success for the 2026 Browns that is a pertinent caveat I say it tongue-in-cheek but there's there's truth behind it too successful season for me is being just as excited about the young players in January as I am right now and you tune into building the beast every Wednesday during the season and good luck thank you we're excited about the quarterbacks and we're not Dane and I in October aren't saying oh shit it happened again it's a one quarterback class no you want there to be two to four guys worth being intrigued by I think that would go a long way toward building some enthusiasm for 2027 I mean there's not a whole lot to add it's the young players look good and I would say the other small thing is like Like, I think if the defense mostly maintains its level as like a top 15 unit, you feel good about the change, like that sort of stuff.

1:46:59Like, again, if we feel as excited now about these young players in the defense as we, if we feel as excited at the end of the season as we do now, that's success. The fact that we're excited at all about the Browns, I think speaks to how many young promising players are currently involved in this situation. All right. That is all we've got with the AFC North preview. We'll be back tomorrow with the NFC South. NFC East. NFC East is tomorrow. We decided to let the NFC East take us into the weekend rather than the NFC South. No offense to the NFC South, but the NFC East will take us into the weekend and be at the top of your feed on Saturday and Sunday.

1:47:39Cowboys, Eagles, arguments going. It'll be good. We've already covered that one. No, we'll do it again. It's fine. I'm in on the Eagles. I've decided. Coward. All right. That's all we've got for today. We'll be back tomorrow with the NFC East preview. Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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