2026 NFC East preview

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2:07Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. The NFC East preview today. This was a good one. We danced around some of these conversations recently. We really dove into it kind of head first the eagles the cowboys and then the other two nfc teams we haven't talked quite as much about let's waste no more time let's get to it the nfc east preview me dave and derek right now

2:39Robert Mays: digging into the nfc east today i've been looking forward to this one we've talked about these teams a decent amount over the last couple weeks in various forums but i honestly feel like my Eagles framing has discounted the fact that there are a lot of fun things I want to talk about with the Eagles that I actually am pretty optimistic about. And so I'm excited to revisit these teams under the guise of a more holistic conversation. No, I'm just going to adopt modern social media language to say, stay on that side, hater. Stay over there. Don't come hopping on. How sick is that, by the way? Like the longtime Cowboys guy is like like ferociously defending the Philadelphia Eagles.

3:16Well, that's the problem. You're too close to the Dallas Cowboys. That's right. You know the secret. Way too close.

3:23Robert Mays: Let's get into the Philadelphia Eagles preview for 2026. The offseason in 60 seconds. Hired Sean Mannion as their offensive coordinator. Moved on from Jeff Stotland as their offensive line coach. Replaced him with Chris Cooper. Traded for Jonathan Grenard. Traded for Dontabian Wicks and signed to Hollywood Brown. Signed Reek Wollen and Arnold Ebiketti in free agency. Also added A.J. Epinesa a little bit later in the process. Lost A.J. Brown, Jalen Phillips, N 'Kobe Dean, Reed Blankenship. Traded A.J. Brown for a first-round pick. Lost is implausible. He kind of like walked out the door. That absolutely did not happen.

3:54Robert Mays: In the draft, Mekhi Lemon in the first round. Eli Stowers in the third round. Markel Bell in the third round. Eli Stowers in the second round. There you go. With each of these teams, if you guys listen to the first couple previews, we're starting this off with what we are most excited to watch with this team in 2026. David, what are you most excited to watch with this year's Philadelphia Eagles? A defense that I am certain is going to be very good and has at least a chance to be the very best in football. I mean, it's kind of that simple to me. And like, I think the roster just laid it out there very briefly for you.

4:30They were all the same answer to this, by the way. Yes, because they were a top five defense last year. You're bringing back Vic Fangio. And I think you can make a pretty easy case that it's a more talented roster than it was last year. Obviously, you lose Reid Blankenship, which is going to hurt, but I think they have way more edge depth than they did last year. Hopefully, Jalen Carter is just healthy, which kind of counts as, like, in addition, being back in some ways.

4:49Robert Mays: You're adding an all-pro player if you get 2024 Jalen Carter back in the mix here. Yeah, and again, even if he's, like, 85 % of that, that's better than what you got for him for large stretches of last year. So I think that, like, that is huge. And you're adding Rick Willen on the outside, where, like, the biggest issue with this team last year was they kind of had to play certain coverages and play a certain way and hide their cornerback too for a majority of the season. So you solve that issue. It just feels like the full toolkit is open for one of the best play callers in the NFL and a front that I think, you know, maybe doesn't have like a superstar edge, but has superstar defensive tackles.

5:22And I think three, four or five guys, they go deep on the edge. So I'm just, this defense has, you know, I've said it before. I think there are five defenses maybe in the NFL who could be the best in the NFL. This is one of them. every time I get nervous about the Jonathan Grenard situation and the fact that he hasn't had a training camp, it is a big deal. Don't get me wrong. But I just think about the D tackles the Eagles have available to them. And then you look at the depth chart on the edge and like Derek said, it's not spectacular outside of Grenard, but they're just so deep.

5:54Robert Mays: I honestly think that the guy that has had the most buzz during training camp that they seem very excited about is actually Jay Lexhunt. And so for me, it's more about not the quality of the edge players because i do think that with hunt nolan smith and then granard when he comes back i think the quality is going to more than clear the bar for this being an elite defense i think it's more about early in the season you're already digging into that depth if granard is not playing like aj epinesa as your spot fourth edge makes me feel a little bit better than if he is your day one third edge player that is going to play a lot and the same with but Keddie, like they're useful role players that I don't, I would feel a little bit uneasy if I had to live with those guys as my third guy out there for a huge chunk of this season.

6:36I agree. But, and that's, it's such an exciting place to have players of that caliber and that build as guys that you're not leaning on. Cause Nolan Smith super underrated by the way. And like, I think people forget that he missed a solid chunk of last season.

6:51Robert Mays: That's why the Phillips trade was so important because they just had such a little physicality on the edge without Nolan Smith as part of that as well. and then being undersized. We'll talk more about Grenard later, but I have a high degree of confidence that Grenard will be fine in the overarching story of this season. I don't know when he gets back out there, but if Nolan Smith is the guy that benefits from Grenard not being there, I think that's fine, especially Jalen Carter and Jordan Davis do a lot to mitigate that. The one, looking at what they did last year, and just who they were last year and trying to project this moving forward, where are some maybe the cracks that we can talk about?

7:24Robert Mays: This is a below average team last year and run defense success rate. Part of that is just the way that they play. They play with more blocked boxes in any team in the NFL where they're willing to say, like, we know we're a gap short. We're fine living this way. Still, I think if you look at the personnel from last year, it makes sense that teams could pick on them on the ground a little bit more often simply because Jalen Carter wasn't himself. And Ojomo is a really nice penetrating piece, but then you get to a place where you've got like one and a half defensive tackles that you feel good about holding up in those situations.

7:55Robert Mays: I just think that room with Jalen Carter back is going to look significantly different than it did a year ago. And I think there's just more size on the edge coming into the season than they had before they made the Jalen Phillips trade. And so the run defense, I expect to be better this year, even with the team that plays a lot of light boxes. Year two for Jihad Campbell stepping into that defense. I assume he's going to be even better. And then the other part that I find notable is the amount of man coverage this team played last year. Can they do that again? And do they want to do that again?

8:22Robert Mays: because now you have somebody in Tariq Wollin that if you want to man him up on the backside of some of this stuff, you feel more comfortable than anything you could have done last year. And so this was a team that played a lot more man. And that's the fun thing about Vic is that it's different every year. Every year, there's a slightly different flavor to it based on what he thinks he needs to evolve, what the personnel dictates. It's something that comes up over and over again when you talk to coaches on his staff is that they're always so impressed with. he's not anchored to any one specific way that the defense has to operate he's truly open to all right it's week eight what do i got and how do we play the best way we can play with this group of guys and so i expect to see some carry over from that stuff last year but this is going to be another season where we discover stuff about this team over the course of the year yeah he vic fangio the the brilliance of him is he's not dogmatic it's not it has to be this way this is the way i built the defense it's going to be like this every year and so i think again the fact that you know I think sometimes when teams really turn up the man coverage sometimes that is about them just wanting to simplify things and I think for them it was twofold right it's like well we have Quinion Mitchell and he can run with anybody and also if we just simplify things for the cornerback too it's imperfect and he's running with guys that are maybe going to beat him but it at least theoretically makes his job simpler but I think now they're in a spot well our corners are so talented why would we do anything but play a ton of man coverage and so I do think that even though we think of them as like a zone defense then I think continuing to play as much man as they did especially on third downs and like when they were blitzing I kind of do expect that continued to be the case the one thing I feel like is notable there this is getting a little bit in the weeds we don't spend a ton of time on it is that the length that Rick Warren is bringing to that position they think that him as a squat corner actually does make a lot of sense and so if you're going to do some of that cover six stuff where it essentially can be matchy and man like on the back on one side with Quinn Yon and then you're playing Rick is that cover two guy in the flat, he has the length to potentially be bothersome in those roles.

10:16Robert Mays: And so maybe that's a reason you lean into a little bit more of the quarter quarter half Vic Fangio stuff than you would have last year. But again, that's just a that's a July training camp conversation. Who the heck knows if that's actually going to be what we see come Sundays. Let's talk about the last thing about the defense is worth mentioning the one position that I do think is worth considering just because it's unsettled, at least was it sounds like Marcus Epps is probably going to be the week one starter at that other safety spot. That feels to me like a veteran knows the system, high floor.

10:46Robert Mays: Let's go with that. But they've got some options there. Like Michael Carter has been playing safety for the most part throughout the summer. And I think he gives you a little bit more man coverage ability if you wanted some flexibility back there. And so it sounds like it's Marcus Epps right now, but they do have some interesting answers there depending on which direction they ultimately want to go. And the degree to which Cooper to Gene is part of that as well. And base, he will be. He'll push. And that's the other thing is this team is potentially equipped to play a lot of base defense if they want to because the linebackers can cover so well.

11:18Robert Mays: And so if you think your best 11 involves Bon, Campbell, DeGene at safety, and then five big guys, I could see them doing that a little bit more. They did it more last year. And so whether this being a team that plays a little bit more base than we might attribute to a Cooper DeGene, Vic Fangio team, I could see that happening. Let's talk about what you were watching the first month of the season, Derek, as it relates to the Eagles. This is a curiosity, something you feel is unanswered, something you want a little bit more clarity about as we get early in the season. Yeah, I mean, how do Jalen Hurts, and I think to a slightly different extent, the offensive line take to a new offense, like it's going to be a little bit more under center.

11:59I think it's they're going to try to hit some of this play action stuff a little bit more. And they've flirted with some of that stuff, I think, over the past couple of years. but it's never felt like it was the core principle of the offense. And so I think it's here and there. Yeah, exactly. Especially with Kellen Moore, like they did try some of it, but it's like, it's, they've mostly been a gun, do what they do sort of offense. And so I think the fact that it's shifting to something different, like, I mean, I feel like we've said it ad nauseum this off season. I think I just have questions about how comfortable Jalen Hurts is going to look into that.

12:28And then again, I think the offensive line, like this is a lot of new for them too. Like for as great as they've been, it's also been very specific for them. It's been a lot of the same gun RPO downhill type of stuff. And so the fact that that's going to be a little bit of a change for them, I just wonder if this is a thing where do they just look like week one and two, like out of the gate, they're kind of ready to go. Or is this something that is more of a, OK, let's see how it looks by Halloween. And maybe we're trying to figure out what concepts we like and that sort of thing.

12:56Robert Mays: The offensive transition is my answer to this as well. I feel like there are just so many unanswered questions. Exactly what you're poking at, Derek. the quarterback part of this i'm sure we'll have multiple chances to talk about it over the course of this segment how he acclimates to it i think is the biggest question when you when they did this stuff last year and they did it in a in a way that i think if you're trying to carry over ideas that sean mannion would have seen and used in green bay and the stuff that we saw jay when hurts use last year it's not these there are so many different ways to use play action under center play action.

13:28Robert Mays: You have the, it's called Jared Goff, Lions-esque, like glances, quick release over the middle, balls out, back foot go, middle of the field accessing, run after catch opportunities on play action. That's a way to use under center play action. The Packers are a team that they take some more vertical shots off of play action where it's, you're not getting guys on the move necessarily, where it's deeper developing routes. We're setting up kind of right behind the center, but it's a token fake and we're trying to get vertical off those plays. When you watch the Eagles succeed in this area last year, that's the type of stuff that it was.

14:02Robert Mays: Go back to that Vikings game. There were a couple of plays against the Giants where he did this. I actually do think there's a lot of carryover for the things you saw Jordan Love do well and the things we could see Jalen Hurts do well. Because if they're these big crossers where he can see them come open, they start to get all the way to another side of the field. His ball placement down the field is excellent. It's more about him making decisions quickly when there's a lot of blurriness and traffic and so I'm open to this working I just think the best version of it is a vertical version of it where they're really trying to push the ball downfield as part of this overall identity I like that point where people talk about Jalen throwing over the middle and it evokes for me at least this mental image of like Dak Prescott is just willing to fire into like any any hole that he sees like the minute it flashes open he'll rip it in there it doesn't have to be that hard it'd be fun if you if you're good enough and confident enough to do that you can manufacture shots over the middle of the field that i hate to say easy but like you can scheme up more open like less traffic looks and like you're talking about like deep crossers that is it's not a hard uh route to throw just because we haven't seen it in the eagles offense it's a hard route to access in this version of the league because those plays just don't work quite as well in a world where you're seeing more umbrella-style coverages.

15:26Robert Mays: What you're having to do is, if you're trying to run those big crossers, you need two guys to lift out the coverage on one side rather than one, and so you just have to scheme it up a little bit differently. But I think they're cognizant of that. I think that's the type of stuff that they're going to be trying to access because that's the type of stuff that I think Jalen does well. It's some of his best throws. Obviously, we all imagine the go balls with H.A. Brown, right? But even someone, like you mentioned, when they try to go deep under center and take their shot plays, it's A.J. Brown running a post.

15:54It's Devonta Smith running a post, and he is willing to let that ball lay out there. So I think it's a great distinction that the play action stuff isn't about can you crack the window open and Jared Goff is going to earhole it past the linebacker. It's we're just going to bomb it over your head. And I do think that Hurts is pretty capable. Did y 'all happen to see the play from the Eagles scrimmage at the link the other day? They got picked? No. Wow. We're having plenty of Jalen Hurts training camp pick discourse, which is just exhausting.

16:23Robert Mays: The next time I hear a training camp stat will be the last time I need to. I'm so f***ing done with this stuff. I'm so done. I need the games to start so badly. Hertz hit Makai Lemon on, they ran mesh with Lemon running the rail out of a motion and they hit it for a nice gain. It's nothing spectacular, but Eagles fans flipped the hell out. And everybody was like, oh, y 'all have been in hell if hitting the rail on mesh is getting you this excited. That's the other part. I think the under center play action element of this, people have fixated on it, which I completely understand because it's an easy talking point.

16:59Robert Mays: To me, it's some of the other structural considerations. Last year, the Eagles were in spread looks prediction on 29 % of their plays. That was second in the NFL. The Packers were at 8.9%. We're talking a third as often. So the formations are going to be more condensed. There's going to be more motion. And that is combined with all of the under center play action considerations we're talking about. But Derek, so much attention has been paid to the quarterback, reasonably so. You bring up the offensive line is, I think, such a good thing to mention. One of my favorite player conversations I've ever had is the one I had with Jordan Maillotta at training camp this year.

17:32Robert Mays: Just about what the transition to this offense has looked like for him. And it is drastically different. It's drastically different. And I think the biggest difference, and one of the coaches there brought this up, and I thought it was such a cool framing where the fronts, we talked about this a little bit yesterday with the Bengals, the fronts are getting so junky on early downs where teams are doing so many funky things and they're stunting and really doing everything they can to make things hard on offensive lines and take away double teams. going to a wide zone world. The way that Jordan Maillotta described is when they were playing with Stoutland and they were playing in this inside zone world, the mental tax, how mentally taxing it was for the offensive linemen and the choices they had to make pre-snap.

18:15Robert Mays: It was like doing algebra at the line of scrimmage. Now you're making it so much simpler. It's like just point and come off the ball, point and come off the ball. And one of the coaches made a comparison that it almost is like a quarterback going from a coverage-based world to a pure progression world where all you're doing is thinking about space. You're not thinking about making decisions based on a pre-snap alignment of the players. And I think that was one of the biggest issues is that they're having to make all of these things and all these decisions at the line as the diversity and complexity of fronts is getting more and more advanced.

18:47Robert Mays: And it's the same consideration where we're moving away from coverage reads because you don't know what the coverage is. And so I think there are benefits to it, but they're also really having to acclimate. Like they didn't do 45 degree sets as offensive tackles in the previous offense. They're doing a lot of it here. They're getting more help than they've ever gotten before. My lot of was saying, like, there are plays where I'll overset a little bit and I'll get back inside and I'll forget, oh, I have help. Like, I actually can do that. I'm supposed to do that. And so I think they like it because it protects them and it does let guys play a little bit faster.

19:20Robert Mays: But we'd be lying to ourselves if we said it doesn't take time to get comfortable playing in a drastically different way than you've ever played before. And given the reputation of so many of the guys on that offensive line, you just, you don't associate learning curves and progress over the course of the season with like Lane Johnson and Jordan Mailata. But I think that's important to keep in mind. Yeah, and they've just, especially in pass protection, those guys were on islands all the time, constantly. And the fact that they don't have to be anymore, I think Lane and Jordan are both just kind of looking at each other, being like, can you believe this is, look at us.

19:55Robert Mays: They finally get a reprieve. Dave, yours answer was a little bit different. You did not have the offensive structure. I knew we were going to talk about it. If you're not focusing on the quarterback and the offense, two main things. We already mentioned Grenard. When is he available? What does that look like? I mean, there's already plenty of doubt he'll be out there week one. Although he's the type of veteran that might not need a training camp. So obviously watching that. The other one, you mentioned Jihad Campbell. I'm just very interested by what a guy that athletic looks like in year two.

20:29And it's interesting to note, he was the only starter that played in Philly's preseason opener. And Vic Fangio, not surprisingly, very honestly, was like, he needs the reps. He needs to play. He's a young player. That's not a bad thing necessarily, but it's just a reminder of where he is. Remember, he got demoted last year when N 'Kobe Dean came back. His snap share dropped from 93 % to 27%. So still a guy coming along and learning how this works. I watched the Bills game last year and I watched his preseason snaps. He looks good. He looks fine. He's incredibly athletic and very impressive to watch move in space.

21:06He looks like he's thinking a lot, which is not surprising. But how quickly does that click? And if it does, that is terrifying for people that have to play the Eagles, because I think the defense is already really good with Jihad Campbell just kind of being a mystery box. If he clicks into being a badass linebacker over the course of his second season, I mean, we're going to the moon. And I think you see him most in coverage with him. Like he has incredibly high highs in coverage. Like when he's just leveraging his athletic ability, he's running with a rail route. He's taking three up the seam and he's just running with a guy down the pole.

21:42He's incredible. Or if he's just tackling a check down, whatever it is. But when he's, you know, the number three crosser is coming under his face and he just doesn't quite see stuff like that, or he's a little bit late to get to his landmark, whatever it is in zone. I think some of the floor raising stuff in coverage needs to come along for him because I think that's a big reason why Dean got snapped. Dean doesn't have the high end plays the same way, but Dean was like in the right spot and taking guys on crossers. Like he just did a lot of the keep the coverage buttoned up sort of stuff. And I do think Campbell needs another step there, but he's just a player that I think has like pro bowl type of potential.

22:17And so maybe it's not quite there this year, but he is a player that I'm just I'm so excited.

22:22Robert Mays: It's a while for players that position. We know that. And I guess the last thing worth mentioning about John Campbell, we talked about edge depth. If they want to move him down there when they're a little bit thin with Garnard early in the season and play some of that 5-1 stuff, they absolutely can. And so that's one area where you kind of protect yourself with a little bit of Garnard slow to come back. And actually, to that point with him, it did seem like and I think this is because they actually have depth there right now. I think Vic Fangio was talking earlier this offseason like we don't want him to do that.

22:47But obviously, if you arrive there by injury, it's like, okay, you just got to do what you doubt to do. He's a former defensive end. But last year, he was kind of cross training. And so the fact that hopefully this year, it's a little bit more like, hey, man, you're just playing in the stack. Let's get you those reps and just think about that. I hope that that kind of speeds his progress a little bit.

23:06Robert Mays: Two more quick things about the offense that we did not mention. One, McKay Lemon just started practicing again. So how quickly we see him up to speed as the third receiver, I think that's worth considering. like the I and then they're excited about Dontavian Wicks like I do think that them not only trading for Dontavian Wicks but giving him an extension it's a one-year extension but I think that really signals a we think he can be something for us so I think the receivers outside of Devante Smith becoming that number one guy it still remains to be seen we haven't seen Dontavian Wicks being that sort of feature part of the offense and we just haven't seen him and Kyleman play I think overall I've got some collective enthusiasm for that group but there's still enough that's murky about it where it's like, all right, we'll see.

23:45Robert Mays: Then the other room that I think is like, I don't know, is what's happening at tight end. The choice they made with Eli Stowers I thought was really interesting where you had all these other teams on day two and in round two specifically going for these bigger bodied Y players. And the Eagles have never been a trend chasing team, ever. They've always been, we're going to go a little bit against the grain. We are paying Saquon$12 million a year, two years before the running backs start making 22, right? They've always been that sort of team. and so them they went they picked stowers in the second round i think in part because that's a skill set as a pass catcher that actually is more valuable and harder to find even if right now we're not valuing that sort of player they signed johnny munt for no money to give them what a borker could potentially give the jags even though munt was in jacksonville last year which is funny but i think it has put them in a position because stowers is not a complete tight end right now where that room feels thin if you want to be a 12 multi-tight end team because you're going to be an under center run the ball team.

24:42Robert Mays: You've only got like two options that you feel good about there. And so I think that's just something to have in the back of your mind where, Oh, they drafted a tight end in the second round. Not really. Right. It's like the Gusecki thing we were just saying about the Bengals. Yeah. So I think that's a, that is a thinner group than you want it to be. So just something to kind of keep in mind. Let's talk about speaking of something to keep in mind. What is keeping you up at night, Derek, about the 2026 Philadelphia Eagles, doing this for every team, just the thing that, for whatever reason, has left you a little bit worried as we sit here on the doorstep of the season?

25:16Mine is a little existential with the identity of this team. What if the offensive line is just never back to what it was? And that doesn't mean bad. They're too talented to be bad, obviously. But just think about how for four or five years, they were the best offensive line in the league. They were just absolutely mauling people. I looked up from 2021 to 2025. 25 they were above the 90th percentile in yards before contact from 21 to 24 last year they were not they were only 11th in the NFL at about 60th percentile so that's still like above average and good but when the identity of your team was we mash everybody even in some of those down years like 2023 was not their best season they were still that kind of offensive line and so I think the fact that last year they had taken a step back and there are a few reasons for that right like I think we, you know, the play calling was this and the scheme was not great.

26:07I think they had some disagreements about how the run game was supposed to work. Jordan Mailata, I think, just did not have his best season after being unbelievable in the, you know, the year before in 2024. Dickerson rushed back from an injury. Lane Johnson had, you know, was banged up towards the end and it is getting a little bit older. So there's reasons to see like why last year didn't go so well. But like Dickerson and Lane Johnson, I think it's fair to question like how the health is going to maintain, especially going forward, especially with Lane Johnson, given how old he is. So I obviously still think this offensive line will be good.

26:38But is this a they will win every single game for us sort of offensive line anymore? I'm I don't know.

26:45Robert Mays: When your two most highly paid interior players are going to Columbia in the spring to get some stem cell treatment, it's not the way you want to start the offseason. I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to. I saw Medellin and was like, ah, we're going to other countries. Oh, wonderful place. But like we're going to other countries to get stem cell treatment. I don't know, man. At least Lane Dickerson is coming. Lane Dickerson is telling. At least Landon Dickerson is coming into the season healthy in a way he wasn't last year. They all are. That's the word out of Philly. Like, no. Well, that's because he's practicing every other day.

27:17Yeah, he's on a vet. He's on a vet regimen. Yes. It's great if they're all healthy. And according to people in Philly, none of them have missed time because of injury. but Dickerson's on a vet schedule and unfortunately when you're this age and Lane Johnson said this is probably his final year you can do everything right and this shit can still be a problem by week two that's just the way this goes I hope that's not the case but it is very existential I get

27:45Robert Mays: where Derek is coming from I think that's a worthwhile concern I still think that if this group is healthier than it was last year which they're already starting healthier than they were last year and again some of those considerations where the way teams are playing against them is just making it really hard to run the ball so again you're coming out from two different directions the talent level is not what it was and just what teams are throwing at you you're not as equipped to deal with it as you might have been in a previous era of the league if it's healthier and we have more answers can this group get back to being one of those dominant teams where the eagles aren't bottom 10 and rushing success rate i think that's where this starts outside of the defense being a top three unit that's where the optimism for this team starts yeah and it scares the shit out of me there i went to put in my own answer to this question and saw derrick's and was like no that's that's correct that's the one and as the person who really believes in the eagles it is very contingent on the offensive line not just being good but great like top five caliber and that's what brings me to mind i what keeps me up at night we don't have to spend a ton more time talking about this if you want to hear my whole thoughts on it you can go listen to the show we did earlier this week which show did i bring it up on the quarterbacks oh yeah you go back and listen to this will the passing game be good enough that that that's where i sit with it joe flacco and cam ward were the only players in the nfl only quarterbacks in the nfl that have a worse success rate versus own coverage last year than jalen hurts i just i wonder if the other stuff is diminished if the offensive line is a step worse if the running game is a step worse if we don't have A.J.

29:17Robert Mays: Brown here anymore, if Makai Lemon comes along slowly, if Dontavian Wicks doesn't turn into that number two receiver that you feel excited about early in the season, is it good enough? And I just don't know. I think that there's an argument that the under center stuff will unlock him in a way that he hasn't been unlocked before, in part because it streamlines the decision-making, right? Under center is the purest form of pure progression football. You're not making a decision based on coverages where your gears are turning in real time. You're turning around whoever's open you're throwing the ball to.

29:46Robert Mays: Like, I actually think that that style of offense can coax something out of him that we really haven't seen. We saw in flashes last year. I'm open to that. But what's keeping me up at night is that this has been a plus 48 % passing success rate team once since he's been there. And the circumstances around him have deteriorated since then. And so you can make an argument that the scheme is more conducive to success. But that is still a question. This is a first time play card we've never seen do this before that has been coaching for like two years. So is that path there? Yes, they could absolutely go down that one.

30:20Robert Mays: But they could also go down the other one where every single aspect of this is not as good as it was when this offense and this passing game felt Super Bowl caliber. I don't want to do 17 more weeks of that. It's just so toxic and so frustrating to talk about. So what is success in your mind for the 2026 Eagles? You know, I think it's easy because one thing has to happen for this all to fall into place. The offense just has to be solid. I don't think it even needs to be great. If this is like a top 12 offense, the Eagles are a Super Bowl contender. Yeah. So be right about the offense. Be right about Sean Mannion and be right that Jalen Hurts can do this and you'll be good enough to win the division and make a playoff run.

31:03The Eagles are an on-year, off-year team. I mean, it's... Do you look like an on-year Eagles team? They called when the San Francisco Giants used to win the Super Bowl, they called it even-year bullshit. Yeah. Even-year bullshit. You're going to be back on your even your bullshit if you're the Eagles.

31:16Robert Mays: That's it. Bonus points if they hit and Sean Mannion actually stays in his job. Like how sick would it be for the offense to be good and Sean Mannion just gets to stay and call the offense for the Eagles? It would be crazy. That would be completely different. Kellen Moore did this for a long time. Shane Steichen was doing this for a long time. I think they've got an outside. Let's say they're good and they go to the divisional round of the playoffs. I think Sean Mannion, I would be surprised if he jumps right into a head coaching job off of his first year for as a coach. Yeah, I do think that's reasonable.

31:49If this works, Eagles fans should have some optimism that they might actually get to keep an OC. Yeah, the guys who are so young, it's like one year of pretty good won't do it. If your name is already out there and then you have one pretty good year somewhere, it's like, OK, maybe that'll get you a chance. But usually they want to see the super young guys do it twice. Like Jesse Minter was great, but I think there was like a let's let's see two years of this before we're like fully invested in what that's going to be.

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35:47Robert Mays: Let's get to the Dallas Cowboys. Our preview for the 2026 Dallas Cowboys. They're off season in 60 seconds. Hire Christian Parker as the defensive coordinator. signed Jalen Thompson, traded for Rashawn Gary, traded for Dee Winters, signed Kobe Durant, PJ Locke, Otita Ogbonia, lost Osa Digizua in a trade, let Dante Fowler and Jadavian Clowney walk in free agency. In the draft, Caleb Downs in the first round, Malachi Lawrence in the first round, Jayshon Barham, Jayshon Barham, not Barsham, Jayshon Barham, that's a tough one. I'm going to get 60 seconds real fast here. In the third round, Derek, what are you most excited to see with the 2026 Dallas Cowboys?

36:26I mean, they're the inverse of the team we just talked about. I think this might be the best offense in football. Like, I just feel like they have all the right pieces. They have a quarterback who we've seen play at MVP Heights before and put up some of the best passing numbers in the NFL. They have an offensive line that is young and really talented almost across the entire board. They have other, you know, outside of Cincinnati, I think the best one-two punch at wide receiver in the entire NFL. In a league where I do think we're going back to a little bit more like, can your guys play and win outside the numbers?

36:56And I think both of those guys are absolutely excellent at that, especially George Pickens. And I just expect them in year two of this system, in an offense that looked pretty good last year, to just continue to kick ass. And the thing that I would say, the offensive line was exciting last year, but they were a little bit banged up, and a lot of those guys missed time. It wasn't that many games, but when Tyler Guyton and Cooper Beebe played together, when those two were on the field together, they had a 45.2 % rushing success rate, according to True Media, which would have been tied for third in the league with the Chicago Bears.

37:27When they had their guys, they were mashing people. And so I just think if they can get back to that, a second year in the system, kind of tinker with some stuff, this could be all wheels up.

37:37Robert Mays: Year two of this offense is my answer, and I'm extremely excited about it. They finished sixth in EPA per play. They finished seventh in weighted offensive DVOA last year. They were seventh in the percentage of 20-plus yard plays that they had last year. like almost any metric they were a top seven offense and this is in year one of a system year one of a system where and i'll go back to this a couple different times it's a hodgepodge of guys from different backgrounds that never worked together you're trying to build something in real time i think that they did a great job of landing on a version of the offense that felt cohesive and varied and just has so many different answers to things but there are still areas where it's like man we just weren't as good good enough here perfect example 25th in the nfl in red zone scoring percentage last year.

38:18Robert Mays: They were not a good red zone team. So this offseason, self-scout, how can we build in more mechanisms when we get into the red zone to have maybe a little bit more optionality pre-snap to make sure we're getting in the right play? And so this is your first offseason to kind of evaluate that stuff as a new staff. And so I just think it's really easy to bake in improvement overall when you're walking into year two when this group has never worked together before. And it's for exactly the reasons that Derek said. The offensive line was hurt last year and a tower guyton when he did play in part because i think he came into this season hurt just wasn't very good and so if we can get more snaps from cooper bb and tyler guyton and this can go from being a below average run success rate team last year to a top five run success rate team last year when i very much believe in the run game designer he's one of the best to do this i i just think there's so many different things where with some teams you have to tell yourself a story about why xyz can all fall into place with this team it's just not hard to get myself there on offense it's very easy to get myself there after listening to your conversation with clayton adams over the summer i was there instantaneously i'll take it more granular because y 'all laid out the big picture i just want to watch dak prescott throw you balls to george pickens and watch him pluck him off people's helmets the most just one of the most beautiful marriages of play styles in the league it really is right now it really is one of the most aggressive quarterbacks league leader in tight window throws i can fit that in there yeah i can fit that in there league leader in tight window throws and the guy who tied for second and contested catches like there's no ball dac won't throw and george pickens is going to do a hell of a job of making him look right and it's just beautiful i can't wait to see it for 17 more weeks i don't think people understand how good george pickens was last year he was phenomenal i truly don't understand how I think that there were I talked to a team with the front office where they have like their in-house like player evaluation tools like just war like for their own measurements and George Pickens was like the sixth most valuable player in football last year for some of those metrics like that's how dominant he was on his targets and oh by the way CeeDee Lamb is on this team who was also banged up last year and I just we talk about stylistic marriages Pickens is there are very few guys in the league right now really just nico and pickens where teams are just like you're the x maybe t maybe t right where it's just like we're just gonna stick you out there because nobody can do anything about it and why that's cool if you can do it and he can but the other part of that is cd is the perfect player to be paired with a receiver like that because now cd can do anything else and so i just even more than chase and higgins is just this force of nature compare like combination of players stylistically the pairing with Pickens and Lamb I actually do think is almost like a more beautiful pairing of skill sets than we even get with the Cincinnati guys it's the perfect yin and yang to like how you would build the receiver like you like you said the guys in Cincinnati they're just bigger faster and catch everything and George Pickens does that but CeeDee Lamb being the perfect like skeleton key around whatever George Pickens is giving you it's beautiful and then I love Dave mentioning the just how perfect a quarterback Dak Prescott is for George Pickens, which I think is something I underrated when they brought him in.

41:33But I've talked about this a little bit, too, with like Matthew Stafford and Pukunokua. Pukunokua is obviously incredible, but he kind of reaches that final level because he's playing with a particular quarterback. And I do think with George Pickens having a Dak Prescott, it's kind of that. Like he's a great player and he gets that extra half a notch of bump because he's playing with the guy who is just going to give him every opportunity to go do his best stuff. Pickens has been doing this every day in camp, by the way. Like just had from everything I've heard coming out of their camp every single day, just dominant.

42:05Robert Mays: I'm so excited to watch it. And the other part of it is that we talked about this with the Bengals where like, all right, are you building in the layers to have a little bit more being a little bit harder to pin down? Having more toolbox, having more tools in the toolbox when you get into the most important games of the year. How many different ways can you play? How many different ways can you win? Dallas has already started to play that way. They already did that last year. That was one of the coolest parts of the offense is that they had a tool for any situation based on how teams were playing against them.

42:30Robert Mays: This team was fifth in play action rate last year. Fifth Dallas Cowboys team. That's not what we saw when Mike McCarthy was there, when Jason Garrett was there. They were fifth in play action success rate. Like that under center play action version of this offense with Dak, they've already shown how scary that can be. And then you think about the personnel. They're 11 with Flournoy dynamic group. Brevin Spanford is like a second blocking tight end piece when you need a bigger body on the field. they have that they can play two back stuff if they want to I just think that the breadth of this thing but not just for breath's sake the quality and the combination of how many things that they can do in year two when you're streamlining stuff and tweaking and improving the sky is truly the limit like I think they can be really really scary and dynamic on this side of the ball let's talk about what we're watching over the first month of the season I'll kick this one off can christian parker do this that that's what i'm watching can christian parker and that defense get to this place and i want to start in a more kind of meta way with this where people have said that i'm baking in an improvement from the cowboys defense and how we talk about them where i would typically be more speculative with a first-year play caller in other situations I'm absolutely doing that.

43:46Robert Mays: You've been saying this for years about this guy. I'm like, I'm absolutely doing that. We're self-aware about our things here, okay? I'm absolutely doing that. And here's what I would say to that. We play collectively the wait and see game so often on this show. And I think we do that because we understand the things we don't know. But every once in a while, if you believe in something, if you have conviction about something, make a stand. Right. And that's what I'm doing. Like, this is supposed to be fun. If we're just sitting here with every single team being like, I don't know, man, I think that's a smart way to handle most things.

44:24Robert Mays: But every once in a while, I think it's a little it's can be enjoyable to kind of get out in front and be like, I think this is going to happen. And the worst thing that can happen on the other side of that is it doesn't. And then it's like, well, I guess it didn't happen. I very rarely do we do that. I think we should do it more, not less. And so I think that's why I've been so comfortable leaning into that a little bit this year, because, yeah, like I haven't been shy about this. I think he's got the goods and I think that they can do it. And I'm yes, I'm baking that in a way that I wouldn't with a coordinator I've never seen do this before.

44:57And for you specifically, this is not like prisoner of the moment or like Cowboys hype. You've been doing the Christian Parker thing for like three years now. You've been like, he's going to be the next guy. He's going to be the next guy up. So like this is this was going to happen with whatever team he ended up signing. It could have been the Bengals. It could have been whoever. I think the other thing that gets a little bit underrated to somehow, because so much of it is about Christian Parker is going to change this and it's going to be a whole different scheme and stuff. They have six new starters, and that doesn't even include Malachi Lawrence being a first round pick who's coming off the bench.

45:25Like it's just a completely different unit than the one that we saw last year.

45:29Robert Mays: When I pick them in the defense's draft, the first thing that I mentioned is the two leading snap getters on the team last year were donovan wilson and kenneth murray neither of whom are currently employed by an nfl team you know it's and it makes it exciting but there's also it's hard to extrapolate things about this because like of what use is the cowboys defensive season to you trying to parse through this very very little yeah like and that's the problem is i think people look at what it was last year and they're like man they were the worst defense in the league you're expecting that big of a jump well it's a ship of theseus sort of situation like how much of the Cowboys defense is actually what it was if we're switching out all the parts just brought up a ship of Theseus reference on taffs right now it plays to our audience it does is that is it worth explaining like if how much do you have to take away from the original thing for it to maintain what it was basically yeah and so have we done enough where we've where it actually is the Cowboys defense anymore I would argue no it no it has nothing in common with last year's defense That's where I sit with it.

46:31Who's the best player? I mean, Quinton Williams got there midway through the year. Who's the second best player that's left over from last year's Cowboys defense? Kenny Clark, who they also traded for before the season. However you feel about Donovan Ezraku as a year or two player. Yeah, it's the best guy that was there before the 2025 offseason or, again, midseason with Quinton Williams. It's really just like Malik Hooker or Damarian Overshown. Otherwise, it's all guys that they've completely flipped over. last year coming off a devastating injury it it is like it's just not at all i think the type the defense that we remember them being as bad as last year and again you don't know how much improvement there's going to be it would be shocking if they are not like at least two tiers better than they were last year so we've obviously talked a lot about this because we just did the contender show i'm a little i'm more hesitant that's mainly just out of self-preservation

47:26Robert Mays: but I was curious reasonable stance by the way more than reasonable I just wanted to know like we talk about it all the time defense is so volatile and you see these year-over-year jumps I just wanted to know how realistic that really is and it's not a huge sample size because DVOA is only publicly available going back to 2018 but I just looked at the 30 teams that have finished bottom five in defensive DVOA since 2018 how many of them made a meaningful jump one year later. It's about half. It's a lot of teams. About half of the bottom five in any given year can be expected. I just set an arbitrary line of 15 jumps up the rankings, 15 spots.

48:07So half of the teams over that time period got 50 % better than they were the year before. And nine teams out of 30 jumped all the way into the top 10 the next year. Like it is inherently doable. The Jags did it last year. 2024 does a shitload of heavy lifting broncos broncos eagles and seahawks were all terrible in 2023 and got good immediately play calling mike mcdonald vic fangio you think that has

48:35Robert Mays: something to do with it that's that that's why when people have asked the difference between why maybe a little bit more bullish on the cowboys and the bengals the bengals added a ton more talent but almost invariably when you're looking at these changeovers a play caller changes it's almost invariably you're changing who is actually structuring the defense the broncos are an exception to this the 23 broncos they were ninth in epa per play in the second half of that season in 23 like the reason they finished 30th was in in dboa is that the first half of that year we're getting 70 points dropped on us like the offense like it's the back half of the year they were significantly better and i do think the talent is better like they're just the the guys they have up front they've got a lot of bodies they've got worthwhile depth like otito bonio was a useful player in this system they've got four or five edges now the Barsham part of this is worth bringing up like if he's going to be a reasonable second off-ball linebacker option who can walk down to the line of scrimmage in certain looks I just think that there's more flexibility variability guys that fit this defense and quality players like the idea that right now it seems like Kobe Durant is going to be the day one second outside corner but by all accounts like Ravel is pushing him and is getting snaps with the ones and so if we get to a place where and I'm just going to talk about that a little bit later, where like Ravel and Kobe Durant get on the field at the same time.

49:51Robert Mays: You can play a little more dime because of that. You have three corners you feel good about. You have three safeties you feel good about. P.J. Locke is useful depth. Like this is not a situation where it's like I'm looking at one or two additions that are names I recognize and being like line go up, let's go burr. It has so much to do with the connective tissue that I think that they've done a really thoughtful job of adding over the course of this offseason, where even if there aren't a lot of needle moving star level players associated with that there are some good players and they've got a great player up front and that combined with the play caller change is that enough and i'm i'm inching there man i'm i'm inching there slowly everything you just said to i'm talking myself into it as we go everything you just said doesn't even account for the unknown of caleb downs i mean we just mentioned his name we just don't know like everything you just said could happen if Cale Downs is fine.

50:42Cale Downs rocks. Then we're cooking with gas.

50:46Robert Mays: I'm open to the idea he might just be fine. He might be fine. Of course. I'm open to that, but I don't think he has to be a superstar for this to be the 16th best defense in the league. Neither do I. And like, if anything, I think it's again, I think that's the thing. I think Downs will be at least fine. Like he was such a phenomenal prospect that I'm kind of willing to bake that in. I think what I was watching is how many of the other young guys that they brought in are going to pop for them. You know, they drafted Devin Moore at corner. They drafted Ja'Sean Barham, who we've talked about a little bit, Malachi Lawrence in the first round, and LT Overton up front.

51:16I think if you watch the preseason, like Lawrence has popped. He's had some moments as a pass rusher, which would be great for a team that I think struggled to get home a little bit last year. And then Barham, I don't know if he's going to start, but again, if he's your weird third linebacker who's a really good blitz player, really good come down and hit, it's like, okay, if two of these guys are useful players, that's already better depth than we had last year. You mentioned P.J. Locke, who's not a rookie, but he could have started for this team last year, and he's a backup now for them at safety.

51:41So, like, it just feels like the top line is half different starters than they had last year, and there's more depth. I just, again, I don't know what the ceiling is, but it's pretty easy for me to get there on them being a lot better.

51:53Robert Mays: What do you watch in the first month of the season? Obviously, the defense is the right answer, but in the interest of covering a diverse amount of topics, I am interested in just how much better the offensive line looks. We talked about it on a previous show. They tried to make left tackle a competition with Nate Davis going into. Shit. It is Nate Davis, right? Sorry. Nate Thomas. Sorry. So it was Nate Thomas. And then they were Shelton, the rookie, I think was supposed to be involved in that. Drew Shelton, Drew Shelton. Like they, that was one of the first things said to me is like, this is an open competition.

52:24Robert Mays: It was on day two of camp. They tried to make it a competition and Tyler Guyton shut it down. It was over like four days in immediately. And I'm just talking to people that I know down in Dallas. They're like really happy with not only Tyler Guyton's level of play, but the way that he approached not having a guaranteed job when training camp opened. So if Tyler Guyton is good, because you can't say he's been good to this point in his career. Like if he is a good left tackle, that's a big deal. I think they're expecting the sort of jump you would expect from Tyler Booker in year two. Terrence Steele's the big one.

53:01Clayton Adams even, you know, mentioned he talked about it within the last week about just trying to be consistent. He's been a very up and down player really for most of his career.

53:08Robert Mays: The tackles and pass protection is a mini what's keeping you up at night. Because if there's something that can sink the offense, I think that is what I would go back to about what could sink the offense. The other thing, just because of the expectations we have for this offense, I wish they had another running back. Yeah, and explosiveness and running back. Like Blue can do that as a pass catcher. Are you going to give him enough carries where we're looking back at the end of the season and Jaden Blue had five 20-yard runs? Because I do think they're missing that. I don't get the vibe from just talking to people that have been at camp that Blue grabbed that and ran with it.

53:42I mean, he might be the number two back going into the season, but I just don't get the sense that they feel great about it.

53:48Robert Mays: That's more as, I think, like a true change of pace player, though. not a guy that like again we can give 12 carries to over the course of a game consistently that gives us a little bit more oomph than Javante Williams so I think had a really nice season last year but Javante Williams is not somebody that's going to rip off a 70 yard touchdown run anytime soon I'm not saying it's going to be some big name but like I just wouldn't be surprised if they add to that room like when the rosters get cut and things like that what is keeping you up at night, Dave, about the 2026 Dallas Cowboys. We've been talking about it for two weeks, but at this point, and not just you, I mean, you've been driving the train all off season, but just across the NFL community, the defensive turnaround feels like a fate accompli.

54:33Robert Mays: Yeah. As long as we're using esoteric terms on the show today. I honestly, that's the part that makes me most uncomfortable. I was kind of hoping I might be like, I don't know, live alone. You'd be out on a limb alone. That part is maybe what has worried me the most. The Cowboys being a trendy Super Bowl pick because of a defensive turnaround that feels plausible but is entirely theoretical keeps me up at night. It should. That's all there is to it. I kind of, I undermine myself a little bit when I looked at the DVOA stuff. I was like, okay, like there's plenty of precedent for units doing this.

55:07It's not nuts. That doesn't mean it's going to happen. And for all the teams I said had these big turnarounds, there were plenty that went from 31 to 27 or 32 to 24 and like 24 is not going to be good enough

55:21Robert Mays: to get where you're trying to go and i think the scarier part of the argument is 16 might be not might not be good enough to get where you want to go with the way the last few years have gone for the most part you've needed to be really good on defense to get it all the way over the finish line and so do we get to the end of the season and it's a remarkable turnaround where we're really impressed with the metrics and just how buttoned up everything feels. But that's what's keeping me up at night is this, that when we get into the playoffs, if we get to a place where Ravel isn't ready and Kobe Durant is your second outside corner, we just live this.

55:52Robert Mays: We just live this. And the Rams front and the Rams pass rush is significantly better than what the Cowboys have, even if you're seeing that group up front optimistically for Dallas. So even there, it's a narrow path forward for the back seven to be good enough for you to win the biggest games of the year at the end. I even I'm willing to admit that. And I just wonder, are we sitting there in January with this is the second best offense in the league. It's a defense that over the course of 17 games has been good enough for them to win 11 games and be a playoff team. But when we're looking at you're having to play the Rams and divisional round weekend, how do we feel about this back seven against that passing game?

56:30Robert Mays: That's what's keeping me up at night, but all things considered, it's pretty decent place to land. If you're the Dallas Cowboys, considering how the last couple of years have gone after the last two years. Yeah. And again, I'm I think I'm relatively bullish that they can get there. But my keeping me up at night is like for as much as I kind of buy it, it is a lot of unprovenness and theory for this defensive turnaround for, you know, what is realistically the upside case is probably, you know, 13th, 14th, 15th in DVOA. If you look back at last year, 13, 14, 15, 16 in weighted DVOA was Baltimore, Atlanta, Atlanta, New England, and the Raiders.

57:05Obviously, New England, I think it was a little bit of a different category. They had a crazy bump at the end of the season. But for the most part, those groups of teams are like, let's take the Jaguars, for example, who did go from bad to truly top 10. If the Jaguars defense was in that range, the 13, 14, 15, that team does not win 13 games and have a shot to be one of the best teams in the AFC. They're more of a just true whatever wildcard team. And so I do think that that is kind of the calculation that you're having to

57:29Robert Mays: have here with Dallas yeah I think it's offset a little bit where the Jags were a fringe top 10 offense last year right can the can the Cowboys be the best offense in the league or the second best offense in the league and like what the number says next to it I don't really give a shit like do you reach a tier where your defense only needs to clear a certain bar and I think that is the best case scenario for this team moving forward but even I am willing to admit and I'll put a pin in it with this way that it is a narrow, narrow path for the defense being this thing that makes them a contender.

58:02Robert Mays: It's just one of those things where it's like, let's have some fun, man. Like just sitting there looking at like, well, they were, they were, they were 30 whatever last year, like this team made the playoffs. So they have to make the playoffs again. It never works like that. Let's just have, let's have a little fun. Let's stand on some stuff. And I think that is what I've tried to do with this team in a way that I'm not always comfortable with. I think to my own detriment, environment what does success look like Derek for the 2026 Dallas Cowboys I think again it's a little bit naughty for them but I think if we're going to say that they can be the best offense in football and they're a defense that can at least let them have some sort of run I think you got to at least have like an honest shot at getting to the NFC championship and I know that it's the NFC is kind of weird because I do think that like the Rams and the Seahawks because the Seahawks just did it they're still a great roster and the Rams are just seem loaded it does feel like there's a pretty big drop off in the nfc after that to me but still four teams got to get to the final four and so i think that there's a pretty open race for who three and four can be i think if you're dallas you should really be shooting for one of those spots i want to hear what you have to say first i said get to the nfc championship game to me is a successful season i think there's there's other like nuances of that when they've won playoff games before they've never really felt scary correct like if you even if you only win a wild card game and you lose to the rams or the seahawks in the divisional round do you feel like you have a shot in that game do you feel like a real threat in that game and i think the other side of that is are we sitting there in january after the cowboys lose and i'm going to over the cap already doing the math on how they keep the roster together that to me is success and only kick those contract cans so far down the road but they can do it yeah if they want to zero out dac and cd again next year they can do it are we at a place where this team was so good and so compelling even if they fell a little bit short where we're doing the back of the napkin math on january 15th being like how can they fit george pickens onto this team next year if we're doing that i think that to me speaks to a successful season for the Cowboys.

1:00:07I'm encouraged to hear this because I just, and obviously I'm really close to the situation, so it's tough for me to pull back. But in a vacuum, after the two years the Cowboys have had, I think you would, for most teams, you would say, get back to the playoffs, win the division, set yourself up moving forward. But that's not going to be good enough for this team after what we saw from them in 2023. It just happened so many times. Exactly. So many times in an underwhelming way. Give me more than that. Want more than that? I even think it. I'm glad you brought up like not looking dangerous because they won a playoff game in 2022.

1:00:45They beat the eight nine bucks. Yes. Win a playoff game that feels meaningful. Beat a really good team. I think truly the only way to get people off your back if you're the Cowboys is to get back to the NFC title game or potentially go further. But I could at least make peace with it if you look like a threat in the playoffs. and that's what I set my definition at.

1:01:06Robert Mays: That's where I'm at as well. And even that Niners team they lost to was a good team, but they were completely outclassed that entire game. Even if the final score is fairly close because it was ugly as shit. They did not look like the same class team as that Niners group. They were out of sorts by the first drive. Like that was one of those playoff games where they come... The Cowboys playoff games. There's one of those playoff games by two drives in. You're just like, that team is not winning the football game. You mean like the Packers one? Also like the Packers one, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, play a playoff game where I don't say, oh, no, in the first quarter.

1:01:38That's my goal for the Cowboys. They're lucky the Packers and Niners look a little bit shaky this year. Four of their five playoff losses with Dak Prescott are to the Niners and to the Packers. So they're lucky that it's not one of those teams.

1:01:50Robert Mays: When Jordan Love puts 60 on Christian Parker when it's all a sudden done, that is a fate worse than death for me. It's the Packers just destroying the Cowboys defense in the playoffs on multiple fronts. That'd be hard for me to live with. All right, before we get to the commander's preview, let's take our next quick break. When everything is moving all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You need one solution. That's why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next.

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1:04:47Robert Mays: Let's get to the Washington Commanders, our preview for the 2026 Commanders. They're offseason in 60 seconds. David Blau in as the offensive coordinator. Durante Jones in as the defensive coordinator. This is going to take me maybe more than a minute. Odafe Owe, Chico Kakua, Leo Chanel, Tim Settle, Meek Robertson, Nick Cross, Kalevan Chason, all in free agency. Rashad White, part of this. Chris Paul back to play left guard for this team. Lost Tyler Biotish. A lot of contacts with that one. Kicked Tyler Biotis to the curve for reasons that are still unclear. Wasp Von Miller, Chris Rodriguez, and moved on from Debo Samuel.

1:05:19Robert Mays: In the draft, we'll make back some time here. Sonny Stiles in the first round, Antonio Williams, the receiver, in the third round. Dave, what are you most excited about watching with the 2026 Washington Commanders? Two years is an eternity in the NFL, but a healthy Jaden Daniels has proven he can make chicken salad out of chicken shit before. and he did it in 2024 without Laramie Tunsell. So the fact that Tunsell's out for the year, it definitely sucks. But, you know, Jaden's made do with less before, and I'm hoping he can stay healthy long enough to do it again. I would love to see Jaden Daniels and Terry McLaurin both healthy play football again together this year.

1:05:56That would be really fun. And with one other player who will...

1:06:00Robert Mays: 80 passes with both of them on the field last year. Really? It sounds like it's an older duo than you would prefer, but Terry McLaurin and Stephon Diggs, if Stefan Diggs looks remotely like the guy from last year, I could talk myself into that. Two of my receiver crushes from the last decade or so. I'm enjoying that. I can work with that. And that's the thing. I've tried to not attach myself to receivers I once had an affinity for like eight years ago in situations that I'm watching after the Keenan Allen to the Bears experiment. But I'll hear your Stefan Diggs, Terry McLaurin thing and try to get excited about it.

1:06:32Diggs was good though last year. He was. And that was him coming off of injury stuff. He was pretty good for them last year. And also, like, even if he's not great, even if he's just 90 percent of what he even was last year, who was the who was the second best pass catcher or wide receiver for the commanders when Jane Daniels did this as a rookie? Noah Brown? Alameda Zaccheaus or something like it's like it's the army. Yeah. The army Brown, maybe who was like a very specific just throwing screens and go ball sort of player. The fact that Stefan Diggs is and I also think it's I've come around on them maybe being able to make the offense work because of Stefan Diggs.

1:07:07And I think the reason being, I think what he's really good at at the stage in his career and was really good at with Drake May is being like a zone beater, just like getting to spots, getting to landmarks, using a little bit of space to make himself clear. Jaden Daniels is really good at that. He's like a very good throw to a spot in a zone player. And I do think that that marriage could be kind of nice for them.

1:07:27Robert Mays: If there's optimism to be found about the commanders, and I think they would tell you this, it's that people have forgotten how special the quarterback is after the way that last year went. and I if you're a skeptic I completely understand that too he did it one time and it was really impressive but he did it one time in extremely specific circumstances and even when he was out there last year their numbers last season on offense were worse with him than they were with Marcus Mariota and so if you want to be a Jaden Daniels skeptic or a Jaden Daniels hater and be like I haven't seen enough to believe that he's just going to hit the ground running again this is going to be great I would understand that I think they are of the belief that people have forgotten what the quarterback is in a decent situation, and I think they're going to be reminded of that this year.

1:08:11Robert Mays: The only caveat there is, is this a decent situation? Which we can dig into. My cynical response to that was going to be, I hope they're right, and I haven't given up on Jaden Daniels. You can't. You signed a contract in blood sometime over the last few years. Like, what options have the commanders given us to be excited about besides hoping Jaden is awesome? The fact that that's the only answer that's the yeah disappointing and concerning we might be right but it's almost an answer by default yes but Derek has a different answer about what he's most excited to watch over the first well I do of course about this team yeah I listen this is this is it's very rare I pick one specific player but this is a player that I thought was incredible I'm so excited to watch Sonny Styles man like I I by the way the discourse about him in the preseason game was bizarre he had It was so weird.

1:09:04He had a play where they run like zone read to his side, but like the defensive end is chasing and Stunny Siles is filling his gap inside the tight end. Like he's doing his job and he gets like washed down a little bit, but it's like he's fitting the spot. Anyway, he did what he did his job on the play and everybody else kind of screwed up. The safety is running to Timbuktu. I don't know where he's going. So anyway, I just think even when you watch him in the preseason, even if like it's only been a handful of drives here and there and he hasn't necessarily made any spectacular plays yet, the movement skills are just my god unbelievable man like you just see him run you see him the stop start for a guy his size is just like he's a really really special mover and so i'm excited to watch what it looks like in and you know we'll talk about this a little bit in a defense that is pretty remade like it's going to be uh some of the same defensive ideas but they've got like six or seven new starters including sunny styles and so i'm just really interested to see what that looks

1:10:00Robert Mays: like i don't know if it will be the same defensive ideas i mean we're going from uh jones right yeah i mean they're they're they want to do the vikings stuff i mean i think that that's what they're trying to tap into and i think that brings me to what i'm watching the first month of the season i'm curious what david blau is going to get from this offense that cliff kingsbury couldn't and so i think if you look at the moves that washington made with the coordinator choices the off the defense is not negotiable like it was a disaster last year like something needed to change and so I think on defense they wanted to go seek out a system and an approach that is hard to pin down and that's been the problem with the Dan Quinn world for a while now is that if you're going to play a lot of single high and you want to play a lot of man and you don't have the horses teams are going to pick on you and that's exactly what has happened to Washington like it just became so simple where they didn't have good and they didn't have good players that it all just starts to fall apart this defense i think has is harder to pin down it puts you on edge just think about the way that the vikings play i mean they're the ones on the front foot consistently and i think it's about optionality it's about what you have to account for as an offense in any situation i think the other part of it is and i don't know how quickly this happens because you need guys who are fluent in the system and veterans in order to make this work the amount of variability and flexibility built into the viking system is crazy right and so you'll have like three plays in the huddle and they'll come out and talking to people there is so interesting about the way that their check system works compared to a lot of other check systems where if you come out and you're a normal team you're a quarters team there's a chance you have six adjustments based on how you're going to play it based on what formation or front they're in what your check is is an adjustment the vikings will go to completely different coverages and completely different play calls based on what the offense is presenting to them.

1:11:56Robert Mays: And so the changes are more dramatic, but there are actually fewer of them. But being able to live in that system, the Vikings had a place where they were a veteran-laden team where guys had done this for years. Washington is completely turning over a huge portion of its defensive personnel. But I think the motivation behind it is, can we be harder to play against? And the exact same thing is true of the offense. If you look at the numbers, Cliff was like middle of the pack last year, with Jaden missing a huge chunk of the season. And they were really good in 24. Cliff Kingsbury did a really good job as the offensive coordinator for the commanders.

1:12:30Robert Mays: The argument is, can we be harder to play against? Every run concept is on the table if we're under center. If we're using more play action, if we're doing all of these different things, can we just be harder to play against? I think that is the goal on both sides of the ball. On defense, you can get me there pretty easily. On offense, it's one of those, I think be careful what you wish for sort of things because I think Cliff did a good enough job where you moved on from him because you thought you'd get a little bit more somewhere else. Can you actually get that in the way that you believed you could when you hired this guy?

1:13:01And like Cliff, you know, I think Jaden is obviously going to be able to develop and do some more stuff down his career. But like the Cliff Kingsbury offense was pretty fit to exactly the things that he's good at, where it's a lot of like open quick game where he's able to fit windows into that. It's a little bit of RPO. It's a lot of those deep outside the numbers go balls. It's a lot of like pick a side stuff. You add the quarterback run game. Like it just felt like they had a lot. And also they played a ton of no huddle and tempo. Like they were a team that like still, it felt like Chip Kelly, like back in 2012, like they were that style of offense.

1:13:33I just don't think they're going to do as much of that with David Blau. You might still because the quarterback is comfortable with it. But what the Washington was doing with Cliff was such an outlier compared to every other team. There's just so many unknowns. And at least again, like you mentioned with the defense, you can get yourself there with the unknown because they've just added so much more talent. And they've added a little bit of talent to Washington's offense, but I think when you add in some of the offensive line questions, especially now with Laramie Tunsil missing a lot of the season, it's a little bit harder to get yourself there confidently.

1:14:04If the Commanders had had a better season last year or were going into this season with a little more excitement and anticipation, David Blau would be one of the most interesting figures in the entire league landscape. Like, yes, it is completely flying under the radar that he was the assistant quarterbacks coach last year, got promoted to quarterbacks coach because Tavita Pritchard took a college head coaching job, Stanford. That's where he played, took the Stanford job three quarters of the way through the season. And then a month later, got promoted to play calling OC in his first year coaching in the NFL because Cliff Kingsbury left.

1:14:38He went he was playing two years ago. And so like all we have to go on is that he spent four years with Ben Johnson in Detroit as a player, not even as a coach player as a player.

1:14:50Robert Mays: And that is the offense they're going to try to run. I mean, he has never coached it before. Detroit is the one that gets linked to him most often. But I also that's right. He also spent time with Kevin O 'Connell, too. And obviously, Cliff, he was in Arizona as a player and Cliff brought him to Washington. So a lot of interesting guys that could make an impression on him and absolutely zero to go on like absolutely nothing. thing. And he's 31 years old. I don't know. It's I can't wait to watch it. I have no idea how to break it down much deeper than that. I think this could be among all of the under center pivots we're going to see from every team this year.

1:15:24Robert Mays: I think this could be the most dramatic offensive change we see in the NFL this season. Washington was 87 % shotgun last year. 87%. I had it at 90 on the site. I looked at it. I was like the true media was 87%. They are going to be, I think a dramatically more under center team this year. And I think Derek mentioning it, design quarterback runs, I don't think they'll do as much of that this year in part because they're fixated on the quarterback's health. And so I think it's going to be just a very dramatically different offensive approach. And whether that works remains to be seen. And I think the argument kind of is a little bit similar to me, not even just in terms of what they're seeking out, but where David Blau comes from.

1:16:03Robert Mays: What does Ben Johnson just talk about ad nauseum? The only thing Ben Johnson cares about is explosives. It's the only thing he cares about. He talks about it all the time. And I think that is the mindset that they're going to try to adopt within this offense. Even when they were good in 24, it was not an explosive offense. They were 24th in explosive pass rate, like Derek was alluded to. It's a lot of catch it and go. A lot of quick game, a lot of underneath stuff, a lot of very fast decisions and very like get the ball out of my hands quickly type stuff. And I just don't think that's what this is going to look like.

1:16:34Robert Mays: I think they're going to try to be more vertical. I think they're going to try to take more shots. Again, does that work? Can your offensive line hold up even in a play action world? We have no tonsil now. The center situation, it feels really scary where they move from Badish to Allegretti. Allegretti's been banged up. Is he going to even win that job? Like there's just so many things about the line and so many questions about the play caller and the structure where this could work because you're potentially getting more explosive with an exciting quarterback. This could be a disaster. I am open to it being one of those offenses that just bottoms out and that we maybe didn't see coming.

1:17:12Robert Mays: I don't think that's off the table with this team. I mean, I don't think that's off the table at all. Like, not to necessarily step on the next segment. Like, that is my keeping me up at night. It's like, what if this, what if it just doesn't really all make sense together? And what if the offensive line is not able to do some of the stuff they want to do? What if they don't really have the personnel to do some of the stuff they want to do? And that's my other question. Like it's still to me still feels like a personnel group that should be more gun and spread. Like when Stefan Diggs and Terry McLaurin are your two best receivers and the guy you draft is like a slot only.

1:17:45That to me feels like more you should be a little bit more gun open. Chico Conco being your leading tight end like that to me feels like you should be a little bit more spread and gun open. Your running backs bring Ja 'Cory Krosky-Merritt and Rashad White, who Rashad White is a really good pass catching back. seems to me like you should be have you know the flexibility of having him in gun where he can be out in the route or out in protection for you a little bit easier like it just I wonder how they make that work with what is supposed to be a more under center approach well things I'd say to that

1:18:12Robert Mays: I think Blau being there in Detroit when they were figuring out how to use Laporta early on and they had to hide him a little bit as a blocker in some of those 12 personnel looks does some of that stuff apply to Okonkwo where we have John Bates, right? And if we want to be a 12 team, and I honestly think their 12 is probably their best personnel grouping, do we have enough ideas where we can mitigate the fact that Okonkwo is not that credible of a blocker? I think that's the optimistic case, but I think that's there to be made. With the running back, I think the argument would be Ja 'Cory Krosky-Meritt, this style and this offense actually fits him better than the previous one did, where he can be a little bit more of a downhill runner.

1:18:52Robert Mays: Again, these are all the things that sound great on August 5th. We're like, oh, no, it's actually going to be better for these guys. It's just there's a lot of wait and see. And this is one of those where I'll be. You're okay. This is one of those where I'm like, you know what? I'm cool being a little bit wait and see with this one. What is keeping you up at night, Dave, about the 2026 Washington Commanders? Before I say that, I will allow me to. I'm just going to put my pig snout on for like one second. because while we were talking about this, it made me think it's not a one-to-one, but if you're optimistic or hopeful for the commanders this season, the Dallas defense situation is not that different from what's going on in Washington in the sense of what there's three or four major players left over from last year's defense, and you're bringing in a new voice from a very successful defensive system in Durante Jones.

1:19:49Robert Mays: I thought you were talking about, I thought you were saying the Washington. offense yeah for a second i was like i don't know i was i was like wait a second no no the personnel is not better no no no i'm talking about the defense yes they spent a mint to get it but the defensive talent is entirely different and i assume at least somewhat upgraded even if you had to pay a premium like even if these guys aren't superstars i think it's better and so like if durante jones brings some of the brian flores magic dust maybe this maybe this could be a lot better than I'm giving credit for in the same way that we talk about the Dallas defense.

1:20:24Having said the nice part of it, what keeps me awake at night is what if we spent$150 million for a defense that's still not good?

1:20:33Robert Mays: Here's my problem. When you spend$150 million, it means you're not good. True. And to that point, it probably means you're overpaying in at least some places. It's really, really, really hard to build a good team through free agency. And if you're trying to extend the Brian Flores thing one step forward, that's actually the best possible, the best case scenario here. The Vikings had to build that team through free agency because they had drafted so poorly. That's what Washington is hoping for. If we can build in the right set of veterans and we have a scheme that can lift these guys and make things really hard on the offenses we're playing against, does it matter that we swung and missed on three straight drafts?

1:21:10Robert Mays: That's the hope. It's really, really hard to do that. Brian Flores is a singular defensive of personality in the league that has been able to do that. The commanders right now, per over the cap, 32nd in the league in the number of rookie contracts they have on their books. Yeah, they haven't made any. They haven't made any picks. It's just hard to win that way. It's just really, really hard to win that way. And I think if you sense an underlying pessimism about this team, I think that's what it all comes back to. It's like, how many difference-making rookie contract players are on the Washington commanders?

1:21:41And it's, you know, maybe this is not - Very, very few. Very few. And again, what I'm going to say is not necessarily a consideration like in a one-year window but what you're talking about with them being having the fewest rookie contracts on your books like you can sign these five or six free agents and I think they'll be good for them like I think Leo Chennault can be nice for them Odafe Owe is going to give them more in the past rush than they had I think Amik Robertson is actually a pretty good fit for I think what they want to do the problem is when you're spending that much money on defense and you're spending on free agents it's really hard to get surplus value on free agents, especially when it's that many of them.

1:22:13Whereas rookie contracts, like if Sonny Styles is incredible, you get surplus value on him. But on defense, you just don't have almost hardly any of those. You spent a fifth round pick on Joshua Josephs, but that's kind of it. And so I think it's just, that's where it comes down to is that if all of these free agents are only 70 % of what you paid for, which is often the reality for a free agent, sure, they're better, but like to what end, especially if the offense doesn't take a step. That's where I came down to like Like Odafeo is a good player. He's only cracked 50 pressures once in his career.

1:22:44He's 27 years old. Like he's not a young player. You paid a premium for that. And I'm sure he'll, he will produce, but will it be enough for what you paid? Caleb on chase on, he's my guy, go Tigers. But you're talking about eight games where he was like a difference maker for the Patriots as opposed to the rest of his career. I am curious about Chanel because I assume Durante Jones is going to play a shitload more base. And so I assume he'll be on the field more in Washington than he was in Kansas City. You've brought up Tim Settle before. It's a tough look when you let Tim Settle out of your building and then pay him a premium to come back after he spends two years on one of the best defenses in football.

1:23:25Like, that is unideal team building.

1:23:28Robert Mays: It's a sign that you have a bad roster. Yeah. Yes. And there are just so many signs that this team has a bad roster, and that's my concern. Nick Cross, though, is going to be the man, especially playing in this scheme. I'm calling my shot right now, Nick Cross, but he's just one man. He can't, he's going to the Hall of Fame, but he can't turn this whole thing around by himself. It is, you can do this. And I think my, what I would say is like, how many true field tilting players does Washington's defense have right now, even after spending all of that money? If Sonny Stiles is really that good that quickly, maybe it changes the conversation, but that's a tough position.

1:24:02Robert Mays: And I think the mental side is going to come along slowly for him, not to no fault of his own. Like it's just how that position works. And so, and again, I think you'd point to Minnesota and you would say, how many true field tilting players with the Vikings had over the last few years? If Durante Jones is Brian Flores, all this shit matters less. I just think it's really, really hard to be Brian Flores. Nobody else has been. And that's kind of what's the, what's keeping me up and I part of this is this just, this team, it just feels like it could be a ghost ship. Like we're just sitting there in week seven and we're just riding this thing out over the course of the year it's like we're done like we've played out the string like they just don't have it like this the draft the misdrafts and the fact that there's just not that underlying level of talent on this team we're just in a place where it's time to hit the reset button and I that's what's keeping me up at night is that that doesn't feel like a remote far off possibility that's just such a sad place to arrive given how 18 months ago we were excited about as excited about where this team could go as any team in the league and like you know we've compared them a little bit to like how the Texans kind of you know kind of had a really good rookie year with their quarterback and then things were you know they spent a lot and things got weird for them the Texans are still a great team like they are imperfect and I think have not built around their young quarterback as much as you want but they are still a great football team overall that's just not been the case with Washington so for them to have wasted what potentially have wasted what is going to be Jaden Daniels' rookie window, and then have to go into the window where you're going to start paying him, still probably picking up the pieces from this era if things go poorly this year, it's just a really frustrating place to have ended up.

1:25:42Robert Mays: When you spend, when you trade multiple picks and then spend money on a left tackle, you throw so many resources at that player, and then that player gets hurt on top of all of the picks you've missed out on, you arrive in this place. And I think this is the place that the Washington Commanders have arrived. All right. On that note, what does success look like, Derek, for the 2026 Washington Commanders? I really think it just all comes down to like, does Jaden Daniels feel like the guy that we thought he was after his rookie season? Because I almost, at least for me, like the wins don't really matter here.

1:26:16I think if he looks good and hopefully Sonny Stiles, like if your cornerstone young pieces, the few of them that you have feel like they are that, that to me is success. I sound like a backhanded compliment, but don't you think it would be nice if the commanders just had an unremarkable year? Yeah. Wouldn't it be nice to just kind of be there because the phrase I used was steadying the ship. Can you steady the ghost ship? We are back on our bullshit where the commanders in my adult life are either a surprising supernova of fun and success. Well, they happened one time, but yeah, it happened twice.

1:26:57Jaden two years ago and RG3. Oh, I guess that's true. I guess that's true. It was 15 years ago. They're either the story of the year or they're just a flaming disaster. And wouldn't it be nice if the commanders just, like if some of these decisions panned out, like if David Blau is good at his job and Jaden, and he can buoy the offense and some of these defensive contracts hit, if that happens, you can flirt with like eight and nine, right? Yeah. The commanders can flirt with 500 and maybe even be in the in the hunt graphic at the end of the year. It wouldn't win them the division in the NFC East.

1:27:33But if they are last year's Panthers. That's probably fine. Just be unremarkable. And like that's not the long term goal, but just be a normal NFL team where like Robert said, like when they played that Madrid game last year against Miami, it was just the most depressing thing that's ever happened. And like, I just don't want to be bummed out when I turn on a commander's game. That would be nice. It's a step in the right direction. I think on the far end of what is success, do the guys you hired, are they the right guys?

1:28:05Robert Mays: Do they feel like the right guys? That to me is non-negotiable because if that isn't the case, then there's no way this commander season is a success. Get to our last one here. The New York Giants. Our preview for the 2026 New York Giants. They're off season in 60 seconds. Hired John Harbaugh as the head coach. Matt Nagy is the offensive coordinator. Jernard Wilson is the defensive coordinator. Signed Isaiah Likely. Brought back Jermaine Illuminor, Tremaine Edmonds, Greg Newsom, Ardarius Washington, Darnell Mooney. Los Wando, Robinson, Cordell Flott, Daniel Bellinger, and Greg Van Roten in free agency.

1:28:37Robert Mays: In the draft, had a lot of picks. Arvel Reese and Francis Maui Noah, not only in the first round, in the top 10. Colton Hood in the second round. Malachi Fields, the receiver, in the third round. Dave, what are you most excited about as it relates to the 2026 New York Giants? Well, as I alluded to when I drafted them in the defense's draft, which that keeps me up at night, by the way, but I'm excited to watch Denard Wilson working with what I think is a pretty talented defense. And that has bitten me before, specifically with the New York Giants, but Denard Wilson, I think so highly of him. I think highly of the job that he's done 2025 in Tennessee was not good but in 2024 they were 12th in defensive success rate they were top 10 defense by yards per play and that's without really other than Jeffrey Simmons a whole lot in the way of of fantastic football players and so to put him in New York with Brian Burns and Abdul Carter which I think Abdul Carter is he's blowing up this year I mean that's great bold take Dave the top three pick in the draft is good at football, but like Abdul Carter is going to kick ass this year.

1:29:47The flashes last year were truly crazy.

1:29:49Robert Mays: 11th in the league in pressures as a rookie. It's not even just that, like that, that's the word. It's his number worth throwing out. When you watch him move, there is one guy in the league who I think moves like that. One guy. And he wears number one in green Bay. Yeah. That's, there are very few human beings that have that level of explosion and change of direction ability and flexibility. And I think that the thing too, that like, Nick Benito, I think, is a great player. The difference between a Nick Benito and a Micah Parsons is that the core strength and balance for their size is absolutely bonkers.

1:30:24And I think Carter is a little bit closer to the Parsons side on that.

1:30:28Robert Mays: It's the flexibility and the bend and the strength while you, like, the strength through those positions. Like, that is just a... And even some of, like, the off-ball spinner stuff and what he can do in one-on-one situations when rushing over the guard. Like, again, Micah's the guy that just... He reminds me of the most. And I'm with both of you guys. Like, they have transformers in the front seven, two of them specifically. And I know we've gotten into trouble here in the past where we focus on the pass rushing so much that you forget about the fundamentals of defense. I understand run defense has bitten the Giants in the past.

1:31:00Dexter Lawrence is a big loss, but DJ Reader, Shelby Harris, I think Denard Wilson, from the sounds of just reading through Giants camp notes, I think Chauncey Golston, who people forget is in New York now, I think he'll have a larger role on this defense. Tremaine Edmonds is not amazing, but I think you can just stabilize this enough to give guys like Abdul Carter and Brian Burns a chance to rush the passer. And then on top of that, Derek, I think you, you said recently, is there an amazing blue chip DB in the giant secondary? I don't think so, but I think Denard Wilson has a collection of players that he can work with.

1:31:39And with all the goofy types of shit, he likes to do. I just think he's got enough options to have some fun with, particularly with pass rushers like that up front. And I just, I think the end result could be pretty fun. And I regret feeling this way already, but God help me.

1:31:57Robert Mays: There is a chance that the linebacker duo for the Giants, even in year one with Arbel Reese, is one of the most improved groups in the entire league. Bobby O 'Carrique played 1 ,100 snaps for his team last year, currently not on a team. Mm-hmm. And now we have Jermaine Edmonds. Mike McFadden is playing a lot for them. Is it, I always get the Cowboys guy and the Giants guy mixed up. It's like Leo Fowler, Darius Mensah. One of those, Moussa, they had a different guy playing a lot of snaps last year. He will not be playing snaps this year. It was Moussa, and then also Darius Flanagan Fowles played 225 snaps last year.

1:32:33Robert Mays: The linebacker situation was heinous. Yes. And it should be significantly better this year. And Reese's it. We'll see what happens with some of the coverage stuff and just the like the mental burden of playing linebacker. I'm really excited about him as a player. We've already seen that downhill thumper shit in preseason. Like the run defense is going to be better than it was last year, even if Dexter Lawrence is not here. Every time he's met a fullback in the hole, nuclear explosion. Like he's just killing people. It looks awesome. So like you said, I think he's got a little bit of like a young puppy energy to him where he is a little bit quick to just trigger on stuff and go and run and hit.

1:33:10But I mean, that's kind of to be expected with some of these young linebackers. And for there's going to be a couple of negative plays with that. There's going to be a lot of plays where he's just destroying a guard and putting them straight in the running back's face. Like I just he's a guy where I think I was willing to buy what the pure linebacker tape looked like coming out of college. At least what we've seen in preseason. It's like, yep, that guy's going to be just fine being a stack player.

1:33:34Robert Mays: about the uptick in talent at linebacker and then at the front. I will give you$100 right now if you can tell me who the edge player that led the Titans in pressures was last year. God. Was it Draymond Jones before he got traded? Before he got traded? That would be a funnier answer, but it is not Draymond Jones. I don't know. It was Jihad Ward. Oh, wow. The way that you were saying it, I knew it wasn't going to be the guy they drafted a couple years ago. wow jihad ward that's that's i love the i love the mental image of like you know deontay banks hasn't panned out to this point in his career and we'll see like is paulson adebo worth the money like from where denard wilson is coming from he's like look at all this talent this is incredible like like i said he's got bodies to work with him and patrick graham having similar summers yeah for real very similar summers and honestly that's kind of my like what am i watching and i think Like it's kind of on both ends where like on one hand, I think Javon Holland is the only player I'm certain is very good in that secondary.

1:34:40Like I think he's not I think he can be a rock star. The other guys, I'm like, it's a little bit of he's OK or he's got some flaws. Like I think Andrew Phillips does some nice stuff, but I think running with guys one on one and coverage is a little bit up and down to the point that you just made, though, Dave. This is still much better than anything that he had in Tennessee. And so even if there's a little bit of hemming and hawing with how good are these guys really? Do we have that many star caliber talents? I think if the pass rush is what we want and they can kind of solidify what the starting roles are supposed to be by the time we get to, you know, the fourth or fifth week of the season, you can start to see what the upside case here is supposed to be for the defense.

1:35:16Robert Mays: I think we just forget or we don't sit in it enough when we talk about what having a truly horrendous, like comically bad bottom of the league run defense does for you. It makes everything impossible. And that's what happened with this team last year. Like you look at the numbers. We're talking about like a 50 % rushing success rate. This is like 2024 Panthers adjacent stuff. And if you are that, it's just the defense just starts to fall apart. It starts to disintegrate in your hands. even if you have decent players and so them getting to a place where they're just playing an acceptable level of run defense that allows you to start feeling the pass rushers in a way that you couldn't last year even if it's an imperfect group and i will talk about this the interior defensive line still is making me a little bit itchy i and like we've seen the names but those guys are getting up there like shelby harris is my age at this point and so that area of it.

1:36:08Robert Mays: It holds me back a little bit, but I do just think this whole thing, the floor, especially with the run defense is going to be so much higher than it was last year. And that allows the other guys to be unlocked in the way where you feel them over the course of a game that we just haven't in a way we haven't over the last couple of seasons. What are you watching the first month of the season with this Giants team? Fun moment that I had prepping for this show is when I look back over the season and reminded myself that Jackson Dart got to play a quarter and a half with Malik neighbors. Malik neighbors caught two balls from Jackson dart before his season was done.

1:36:42Uh, so I've all eyes on Malik neighbors. It's we joked during the summer about, you know, Harbaugh had all these cryptic updates about his health and the second surgery. Haven't seen too many hiccups during training camp, but his red non-contact Jersey just came off and he just started practicing full. And I think he even, he like exited practice early his first day back, which I think it's okay, but I, I'm anxious about this.

1:37:09Robert Mays: And so he's been moving extremely well. And that's the most encouraging part to me is the fact that he's looked explosive. He's looked normal. He's looked like Malik neighbors, even in the limited types of work we've gotten to see from him. I want to see that in the regular season and preferably quickly. Hopefully the ramp up is smooth. Look at Dave watching Jaden Daniels and Malik neighbors. I could have guessed. I didn't want to draw attention to that fact. It's not my fault that the LSU guys are the best players on their team. Like, that's not my fault. It's not my fault that I went to a football factory where all the best, most explosive, exciting players in the league happen to be LSU Tigers.

1:37:42Robert Mays: He is right about that. At one point in time, that was true. Not so much these days. That is a zeroed in. What am I watching on the offense? Mine's going to be a little zoomed out. What is this offense? Yeah, that just gives me a great question. That's what I'm watching over the first month of the season. I don't know. I just don't know the answer. Coming into it, I think there is an inclination to believe. Matt Nagy we're gonna be in the gun we're gonna do some RPOs that's how this is gonna be it actually fits with Jackson Dart's skill set let's do some of that they come out in the preseason first like three plays under center two back downhill runs which I guess makes sense Greg Roman is the Greg Roman's there and so Patrick Ricard is there so I just that's my question it's what is the offense what do they want to be what is the identity what sort of do they lean into?

1:38:32Robert Mays: I mean, what sort of personnel groupings do we see with this team? Is it a situation where we're going to see a lot of two tight end stuff with Ricard and likely in the way that you would have in Baltimore? How does Theo Johnson get involved here? What are the other pass catching spots? Like on the other side of Malik neighbors, how much Maokai fields do we get? What is the mix between him and Darius Slayton? Calvin Austin just tore his ACL. I just, that's my question the only thing about this offense where it's like i feel good about what this is going to look like and i feel optimistic about the group overall i think this offensive line is a chance to be really fun like that if andrew thomas andrew thomas coming back healthy you know plus you drop maui maui no in there jermaine illuminor has played really good football for them i do think that has a chance to be a real strength of this thing other than that shrug Like, I just don't know what to expect from this team.

1:39:26Robert Mays: And that's both in terms of quality, but also in terms of approach, because there are just so many different ideas being cobbled together to form what they want this plan to look like. You know what, though? I'm glad you mentioned the preseason work and it looking a little bit more under center, a little bit more heavy, a little bit more stuff like that, because I actually think a player that Jackson Dart profiles a little bit similarly to to me is like a Jalen Hurts when he's not always the snappiest passer, but I think when you get him to where he wants to go, he's very accurate. The pocket movement can be a little bit herky-jerky and up and down, but when he gets outside of the pocket, he's really dangerous.

1:40:01You can design a little bit of a run game for him. The RPO stuff, I think is absolutely part of his game. And so I think if they're going to, and again, like Jalen Hurts, I think some of Dart's best stuff, if you're just going to try to unlock whatever he has in terms of arm talent, it's not trying to throw lasers over the middle. Like he can do that a little bit, but that's not what you want. I think you want to let him just kind of chuck it and throw some of those posts in, you know, deep downfield to Malachi Fields, Malik Neighbors and stuff like that. And so if they can streamline him a little bit in that way, which, you know, construction-wise, it looked a little bit different at Ole Miss, but like that's what they were doing at Ole Miss.

1:40:34It was a lot of like two and three man just shot play stuff and just being like, hey man, this is going to be open. How about you throw it? And he's accurate enough to do that. And so in the best case scenario, that's probably what it looks like. How much confidence I have that they arrive there. I think this is another one of those I want to wait and see.

1:40:51Robert Mays: I don't know what the offense is going to look like. I don't know what to reasonably expect from the quarterback within this offense. Like he just had such a weird rookie year. There's a lot to attach yourself to. I mean, the off schedule playmaking, some of the stuff he was doing with his legs, the accuracy that Derek is talking about, that there are some things where you start to stack them up and you can get excited about Jackson Dart. But there was just as much where if you remove scrambles, he was 26 in the paper drop back last year. Like the off schedule stuff was a necessary component to him pumping up those numbers to a place where if you didn't, if you moved all the contacts, you'd be like, oh, for a rookie quarterback, it's actually pretty good.

1:41:23Robert Mays: But then you actually start to dig into it a little bit more. And it's like, oh, I don't know. I have no idea what to do with this because so much of it was off schedule with his legs that is doing a lot of heavy lifting for those numbers looking as decent as they do. And you know what's funny with that is like comparing the rookie quarterbacks. And we probably talked about this a little bit when we did that show. Jackson darts numbers like in the aggregate by the end, like it looks pretty solid for a rookie quarterback, but like you're saying, the vacillations down to down are crazy. Like some of his worst plays were terrible and some of the best plays were really, really cool.

1:41:52Tyler Shuck, like not that we're talking about the Saints, but Tyler Shuck was the opposite where the highs were kind of just like fine. But the down to down operation, you were like, oh, I can buy that. And like that profile with that production is a little bit easier to buy. Whereas for me, I think when the vacillations are so up and down, I'm a little bit more curious of like, OK, are your highs really specific and like how much can they actually tap into them? I mean, outside of the truly elite MVP candidates, Jackson Dart was one of the most entertaining quarterbacks in the league last year.

1:42:24Yeah. In the preseason, he got annihilated by Jay Ward and like 15 minutes later had that ridiculous throw to Derek's guy, Malachi Fields, which was so exciting. I was texting Derek on a Saturday afternoon like, we're taking over the league, baby. Yeah, you were like, did you see that? I'm like, I didn't at the time. And then I'm like sprinting to get to my to get to a computer and be like, where's the clip? Where's the clip? But that's why it keeps. That's why Jackson Dart is what keeps me awake at night, because I can't decide how I feel.

1:42:52Robert Mays: I was going to ask you because you were not on the lingering question show that we did about the second year quarterbacks. I think you were doing something important at the time. So you were not on that show. And so I haven't really you haven't downloaded your Jackson Dart offseason thoughts in this space right now. So how do you feel about Jackson Dart? it changes every three hours it changes like every time every 30 seconds every time i think about it i'm just like you know what like i just outlined with the preseason games just like ah this guy i mean the stats are hilarious jackson dart it's similar to the stuff you just said but he's 12th in epa per drop back when he was throwing outside of the pocket pretty freaking good 20th when you account for just inside the pocket throws.

1:43:37He was second among all quarterbacks in rush EPA behind Josh Allen, tied with Mahomes for the most 10-plus yard rushes, tied for second in rushing touchdowns. He was, and I know this is a subjective stat, but per PFF, number four in the league in big-time throw percentage. Per PFF, also number seven in turnover-worthy plays. Tune into Jackson Dart and every other snap, You're just you're over the moon excited or you're convinced he's going to play his way out of the league in like a year and a half. And I don't know what to do with it. I'm legitimately I'm really intrigued. I think it's worth saying again, he barely got to play with Malik neighbors.

1:44:19And so what does it look like if you have a real wide receiver one sort of stabilizing things and hopefully giving you an easy out in your offense? But I don't know. And on top of that, we've talked about it before. if I felt better about the play caller, I'd probably be willing to just dive in and go whole hog and say, yeah, Jackson Dart is the wave of the future. Not to say Matt Nagy can't do a good job, but it's not inspiring by any means. I mean, Kansas City ushered him out the door last year, and now he's...

1:44:50Robert Mays: One of the weirder situations I can remember. Kansas City... Well, he's going to get a head coaching job, so we don't need to bring him back. Matt, we're not renewing you, but we won't fire you, so we'll just see where this goes. and now he's calling plays for one of the most interesting quarterbacks heading into his into the into the league this year is I I don't know like I said it keeps me awake at night because I could I change my opinion with every new bit of information and I think the last thing that it is worth saying with Jackson Dart like the injury stuff and the health stuff like it's worth saying because if I'm I think I think the Jalen Hurts path for him like in terms of play style and what it looks like.

1:45:27And obviously, you know, this Giants team isn't as good as those Eagles teams. And I think that that was part of that. But also part of why Jalen Hurts, you know, kind of works. He's an Ironman. Jalen Hurts doesn't miss football, whereas Jack Sedart has already missed a bunch of time. And I think given his play style, I think that that is on the board that he might miss time again. And so I just worry a little bit about that with him where, you know, he kind of had a press conference the other week where he was like, I don't know why every time I get hit, I'm getting called to the blue tent it's like what the play that you mentioned uh dave with jay ward he's like just laying down on in the middle of the logo and like not moving and it's like of course it's their job to get you into the tent like that's that's just how it's gonna go if you're gonna get hit

1:46:10Robert Mays: like that that is the most i think you should leave hot dog suit shit ever where it's like we're trying to find the guy who did this like why why could they possibly think that i need to go to the blue medical tent when I get absolutely rocked in the pocket and then lay on the field for 30 seconds. And his teammates at training camp are cheering when he slides because he's taking the coaching points that he can't take contact like that. Derek, you also had a thought about just the offensive staff and the Nagy part of this as well and why it might be keeping you up at night on top of how it's affecting Dave.

1:46:42Yeah, I'm just worried that the offensive staff, it's just a lot of older and stale ideas and just guys that have really only to me like worked in very specific scenarios like Matt Nagy whenever he had success it was a lot of with Patrick Mahomes like at the peak of when when offensive football was kind of geared towards the things that he and Andy Reed just wanted to do and you had this this offense that took the league by storm Tyree Kill was incredible like it just felt very specific he goes to Chicago and it just doesn't ever feel like he's able to recapture that in any way and do that with a different roster a different team and stuff like that and then greg roman i do think greg roman actually does give you a floor right like he he kind of gets you off off the mat and at least gives you something i just think outside of some incredible like one incredible season with colin kaepernick and then a couple of incredible years with again lamar jackson taking the league by storm and being one of the most magical quarterbacks that we've ever seen play the position it's just been a lot of like you run out of road pretty quickly with what the offense is.

1:47:42And so I just don't know how good it's going to look when, you know, Jackson Dart might be fine. He's just not a Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson sort of talent at quarterback.

1:47:55Robert Mays: What's keeping me up at night is one step even further zoomed out from that. This team, I think, really is banking on John Harbaugh to save them. They're banking on John Harbaugh to save the franchise. They're banking on him to pull them out of a tailspin that has been happening for the better part of a decade where they've just been bouncing between these guys who are just these completely underwhelming head coach hires and for a franchise that has as much history and pride as the New York Giants do what the last however many years have looked like there I think they're trying to do anything they can to restore a level of respectability to this thing and I understand turning to John Harbaugh to do that When you look at what he's done in Baltimore over the last 15, 18 years, it's unimpeachable.

1:48:41Robert Mays: Like they have been one of the most stable franchises in the league. We've done this recently. We've done this recently and it hasn't gone well. And I don't think that John Harbaugh is going to be Pete Carroll. I think that there are a lot of examples of John Harbaugh being the right type of CEO coach, even as recently as like two or three years ago. I think John Harbaugh has done such a fantastic job over the course of his career of figuring out the exact right moments when his team needed to evolve based on the players that he had and the place they've reached as a franchise. Them going to Greg Roman in 2019 the way that they did.

1:49:12Robert Mays: Them getting to a place before the 23 season where he was just like, we ran out of road. It's time to do something different. They bring in Todd Monk and it's an inspired choice. Lamar wins the MVP. They're the best offense in football or one of the best offenses in football in 2024. On defense, he hired Mike McDonald. He was the one that brought McDonald to Baltimore. Like he's done such a good job. And that was when the, the wink identity of what the defense was. It's like, we've run out of road here. So I think he's had a finger on the pulse in a way that maybe some of these other older CEO type of coaches haven't necessarily.

1:49:45Robert Mays: That being said, they didn't get Todd Monken. They landed on Matt Nagy. And so is that continuing? Like, do we feel good about this? And so I'm open to either one. Like if we get to the end of the season and John Harbaugh has restored a level of stability and respect to this organization, that wouldn't surprise me. I think it's probably more likely than not that we feel that way about this team. But I'm open to the idea, and it scares me a little bit, that the other possibility is looming there as well, where they don't get that floor-raising thing that they thought they were going to get with John Harbaugh.

1:50:19And if the floor is low again, I just don't want to experience that as a Giants fan.

1:50:24Robert Mays: But I don't think it's off the table. That does go back to the point I've made several times this offseason, though. that it's okay if this doesn't happen overnight. Yeah, it doesn't have to. But in New York, that is the expectation with this franchise and with the size of the spotlight and the head coach in question. That's why I think it's okay to temper your expectations here. Like if the Giants are a feisty below 500 team, I'm skipping into the what is a successful season part, but it doesn't have to come together overnight. And if this takes a little bit more time, I think that's okay. as long as it's not putrid i mean bringing up pete carroll if it looks like that all bets are off and who the hell knows what the giants do from there but like even if it's 75 of the way there two thirds of the way there that is a disastrous outcome it doesn't have to be as bad as that for this to be a worrying that can't have points for the giants it can't it can happen but it should not happen and if it does happen what on earth went wrong to get to that point because i do think the talent on this roster you shouldn't go four and 13 again well i like i believe that like this should be a better team than that and so so what is success absolutely flirt with respectability the giants have only won more than six games twice this decade god damn yeah excuse me i'm sorry no only once they've only won more than six games once this decade and they were the most fraudulent playoff team shit dude ever that was the year they beat the vikings yeah with dexter orange just like terrorized her cousins yeah i'll even if you go six and eleven but jackson dart looks promising and and you are you feel confident that you can build this thing around him for a couple more years i'll give you that but seven and ten and better is where i start to feel optimistic about this thing yeah i think if you feel some amount of confident and good going into year three with jackson dart even if it's not perfect but you're just like yes he's the guy we want to give another shot and we still care about you by Thanksgiving like you cannot be a team where I mean the Raiders last year four weeks into it we were just like this I just don't know if this is going to be a team that can hold it together if you're a team that we still care about and you have a shot by Thanksgiving which is like week 12 13 I think that to me is probably success respectability is the word I would go back to do we have an air of respectability are you in these games are you competitive are we interested in the new york giants not actively avoiding them it's more than a sideshow yes as fun as dart and scadaboo are as a tandem like give me something to hold on to other than their antics like give me football reasons to want to check in yeah are you are you interesting in a way that is not on my wife's radar right right that that that's not all respect to her that's not the type of interesting i want you to be as the new york giants all right That is all we've got for the Giants.

1:53:20Robert Mays: That is all we've got for the NFC East. We will be back on Monday in the audio feed with the NFC South preview. So be on the lookout for that. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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