Canton Court: Are any of these six players Hall worthy?

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1:35Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Another fun little summer franchise for you guys today. We brought back the Hall of Very Good last week. It was only right to bring back Canton Court as well. We did this a few times over the years as we were into June and July. just made cases for a couple guys who were not in the Hall of Fame. You know, do you believe they should be? Why you believe they should be? And then the rest of the group decides whether they should be in. Now we have three, so we actually have like a voting body compared to when me and Nate would do this like five years ago.

2:04Robert Mays: But that's what we spent today doing. We picked six guys, went over their Hall of Fame cases, and then I sprung a little surprise bonus on these guys after we got through our six. A lot of very fun conversations about some great players in their careers. Let's get to that discussion with me, Derek, and Dave right now.

2:32Robert Mays: After we brought back the Hall Very Good last week, there was really only one option. We also had to bring back Canton Court. These shows have existed in tandem really since we started doing them, in like 2021. So I don't think one can properly exist without the other. So if we were going to bring back the Hall of Very Good, we were also going to bring back an entire show, Dave, where we're just going to be presenting the cases for, let's call them borderline Hall of Fame players. I've got a couple of guys that have been finalists, guys that haven't quite gotten in yet. The criteria for this is weirdly looser than it is for the Hall of Very Good.

3:07Robert Mays: It's essentially just guys that aren't in the Hall of Fame that you want to argue for. That's what we're going to dig into today.

3:11Derrik Klassen: It is a smaller list of players, but it felt very weighty to me because it's one thing to just as an aside during another show, be like, this guy should clearly be in the Hall of Fame. And then when you dig into it and really start trying to put a case together for somebody, you see how hard this process really is. And you also want to do justice to these amazing careers. So it felt very, you know, for doing a football podcast in basically July. lie. I was like, this feels very serious to me right now, but I'm looking forward to it.

3:43Robert Mays: So, Bell, when you said we each had two unique guys, does that mean that there was some overlap in the candidates that we were bringing to the table?

3:49Derrik Klassen: No, no, no. There's none. There was no overlap. We wanted you all to have a backup ready in case because we wanted to make sure we had six names. But the two that you presented to us, all different across the board.

3:58Robert Mays: And then I have a third guy I want to talk about in sort of a different context that we'll get into a little bit later. Derek, how many linebackers among your two guys?

4:06Dave Helman: I actually did have a backup lineup linebacker prepared but i will not be bringing him to the table today because we didn't

4:11Robert Mays: need it unfortunately one of my choices which we'll get into here in a bit is the most on the nose selection i could possibly have and i'm sure you guys might have avoided it because there's a

4:21Derrik Klassen: guy i'm just i know in my bones he's one of your guys and i was looking at it and debating who i wanted to make a case for and i was like i'll set him to the side for maize all right let's set all

4:31Robert Mays: of mine to the side for now derrick why don't you kick us off who is who is the person that you want to present first for this edition in 2026 of Canton court.

4:40Dave Helman: So I, my process for this was I started with, I wanted one guy who was like a finalist and like has been close. And then I have another candidate who has not yet been a finalist and is not close. I'll start with the one that has been a finalist. And I do think is close. Reggie Wayne is a hall of fame wide receiver. And I think it's very easy to be like, Oh, he played with Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning was throwing to him. Like, yes, sure. That is all true. But some of the other best receivers of all time, we're also receiving passes from the best quarterbacks of all time. Like Randy Moss had Dante Culpepper and Tom Brady, like Jerry Rice had Joe Montana and Steve Young.

5:10Dave Helman: Like that to me is not any sort of inhibitor. If you look at his accolades, like he has earned it. Six time Pro Bowler, only a first, only a first team All-Pro one time, but second team two different times. The other thing with him, every other wide receiver in NFL history with six plus Pro Bowls and a thousand career receptions has made the Hall of Fame. Like if we are just looking at the objective measure, he has cleared the bar for what those guys have done. And again, I know it's easy to be like, well, there were stretches where he was not the best wide receiver on his team. But him playing next to like the fifth best receiver of all time doesn't mean he can't be a Hall of Famer himself.

5:47Dave Helman: I just think that that is kind of a ridiculous criteria, especially when you look at like post Marvin Harrison. So like 2006 to I think 2010 is about Reggie Wayne's peak, like that five-year period. He had 6 ,584 yards, which led the league over that span. The only other two NFL receivers over 6 ,000 over that span were Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson, both Hall of Famers. And he did all of that pretty much without Marvin Harrison. Harrison was there in a strong capacity for 2006, but he kind of tapered off after that. And it really became the Reggie Wayne show. So for all of those reasons, he, to me, is a Hall of Fame wide receiver.

6:21Robert Mays: That stretch you're talking about from 2006 to 2010, Reggie Wayne's worst season in that stretch was 2008. He had 82 catches for 1 ,145 yards. That was his worst season in that five-year period that you're talking about.

6:35Dave Helman: That's probably a career year for most guys during that stretch.

6:39Robert Mays: Absolutely. He had, so 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. He had seven straight 1 ,000-yard seasons.

6:47Derrik Klassen: He's 10th in all-time receiving yards. He's 10th in NFL history. I mean, it's absolutely asinine. The only thing, and I admire you, Derek, for bringing it to the table because we should talk about Reggie Wayne. He's way overdue to be into the Hall of Fame, but through no fault of his own, he's wrapped up with Torrey Holt as well. Torrey Holt, another guy who should be in the Hall of Fame. Did your eyebrows just go up because he's one of your guys?

7:12Robert Mays: So I was looking at a lot of Torrey Holt stats because, in my opinion, if you look at, let's say, 2026 Hall of Fame finalists, there are three receivers that are bunched up here that all have very different kinds of cases. And I think part of the problem is there are a lot of receivers that are up for debate right now. So the three guys among the 2026 Hall of Fame finalists at receiver, Torrey Holt, Reggie Wayne, and the guy that I'm going to talk about here in a second is Steve Smith.

7:40Derrik Klassen: Yeah, okay.

7:40Robert Mays: And so there are three receivers, and I think that's part of the problem here, Derek, is that as receiving yardages and as passing totals get more and more inflated here over the next couple decades, we're going to have more and more players at the position that if you look at historical norms, have a serious case to be in the Hall of Fame. And I think that's kind of hurting Torrey Holt and Reggie Wayne and Steve Smith right now as all of these guys are jockeying for essentially one spot. Who has the best argument and who you're willing to make the argument for becomes almost like a matter of personal taste and what matters most to you?

8:16Dave Helman: I think it actually is like because I think ultimately like watching players like it is a little bit subjective right now. I know the Hall of Fame is supposed to be objective, but I think the thing that I would say that actually works less in the favor of Steve Smith, but to me in the favor of Torrey Holt and Reggie Wayne, the offenses that they played in like the greatest shows on turf and then obviously what Reggie Wayne was doing with the Colts. They were on like the forefront of passing becoming what it has become in the NFL. Like that to me is like a little bit of like a, like a turning point in time in what the league is.

8:45Dave Helman: And I also think like another small thing for Reggie Wayne, obviously Peyton Manning leaves and then it becomes, they draft Andrew Luck in 2012. Did you know Reggie Wayne had 195 targets at like 34 years old, that team and like was the key driver outside of obviously the quarterback to that team being an 11 win team and making the playoffs when they had no business doing any of that so the fact that he did usher in like a new era of Colts football I do think that's like kind of a nice cherry on top to his career I do like that a lot the fact that he had

9:16Robert Mays: 1300 receiving yards that 2012 year because for whatever reason when I think about the 2012 Andrew Luck era Colts he's not somebody that comes to mind like the tight ends and T.Y. Hilton are guys yeah you're like before I think of it because you think of Wayne with Manning you think of Wayne with Manning yeah and it's Steve Smith kind of had the same thing which Derek knows all too well as somebody who loved those Panthers teams after Cam got there Steve Smith had whatever his career was and then he had a little bit of a dip and then Cam got there in 2011 and then he had two more like huge statistical seasons because of that so Derek beyond like the the numbers and just the Ross career-long totals for Reggie Wayne what are there any like aesthetic arguments that you have like the way that we remember Reggie Wayne, or is it mostly just driven by career long production and one of the most important offenses we've ever seen?

10:06Dave Helman: Well, again, I do think he gets hurt in how we remember him. Cause again, I think people think of like Marvin Harrison being the better player. And he was like Marvin Harrison was incredible, but I do think aesthetically he to me had a very, there's a very, there's a particular brand of receiver where it just looks effortless. Like I think JSN is in this realm right now. I think Justin Jefferson is in this realm right now. Now, Chad Ochoacinco, I think at his prime, was also in this realm where it just everything is so smooth from the release. The route peak Devante Adams was like this, but just like release to the route, the way that they handle themselves on the sideline, the way that they find the ball in the air.

10:40Dave Helman: It never looks like they are fighting themselves to play football. And I think that that is a very underrated skill when you're thinking about how good some, especially like earlier in his career, when the defensive pass interference rules were a little bit different, like very early in his career. Like he just I think for it to look as effortless as it did for him for a majority of his career. And again, even until he was 34, 35 years old with that second generation of the Colts team, that to me always kind of stood out with him is that it just looked easy for him to play football.

11:09Derrik Klassen: You can call it arbitrary, but I think it I think it backs up over a long enough period of time, even with receiving numbers exploding over the last decade. To me, a twelve hundred yard receiving season is the number where it starts to feel special. You know, like I said, it's how many does he have?

11:27Robert Mays: That's what I was about to say.

11:28Derrik Klassen: So even in an era where, you know, 1700 yard seasons and guys are flirting with 2000, that is becoming more the norm. You can go back over time. You're still only seeing between seven and 10 ish receivers reach 1200 plus yards in a given year. And Reggie Wayne from 2006 until 2010 was a 1200 yard receiver like every year of that stretch. Like he was a 1200 yard receiver, like seven out of nine years in his career or something like that. Just not just consistency, but top of the league consistency in a way where, I mean, even even with the offense, even with Manning and Marvin Harrison being there to take some of the attention away.

12:09Derrik Klassen: Being that good that consistently over that stretch of time is just remarkable.

12:14Robert Mays: All right. So where do we land here? What's your verdict on whether Reggie Wayne is a Hall of Famer?

12:18Derrik Klassen: OK, before we do that, I just want to say and I think this is why an exercise like this is good for me. I think I say it all the time. I'm a forgiving greater, but I kind of, I balk at the idea that only one of these three guys could go into the Hall of Fame.

12:31Robert Mays: That's not what I mean. I more mean that they're just jockeying for position right now. Okay. I don't think it's like a Highlander situation where there can only be one. I just think that there's some traffic at receiver right now because of what the last 15 years of NFL football have looked like.

12:47Derrik Klassen: Which is why.

12:48Robert Mays: I guess these guys played before that. But I just think overall, I think that receiver is going to be a very crowded position. Let's call it the last 20 years of NFL football.

12:56Derrik Klassen: I struggled to I didn't bring these guys to the table ultimately because I didn't want to deal with the logjam. Like the thing that is causing this headache for the last like five, six years, however long it's been. I think I think all three of these guys are Hall of Famers. And if we have to make like a special provision to expand a class one year just to get all of these guys in because they were playing through the change in the game and the offensive boom, I'd be OK with that. So that's a long way of saying, yes, I absolutely think Reggie Wayne is a Hall of Famer.

13:32Robert Mays: I also think that Reggie Wayne is a Hall of Famer. And now I'm going to denigrate Reggie Wayne in favor of Steve Smith. I got him in, so I'm good. I don't care. so here when you look at the steve smith numbers compared to somebody like reggie wayne and it's not the total numbers right like steve smith is seventh all time in receiving yards he has 14 731 receiving yards but he played a very long time he played into his mid 30s and if you look at those stats those seasons he had with the ravens at the end he had a thousand yard season with the ravens at the end he had multiple 700 yard season with the ravens in his mid 30s And so I don't, pure volume, like season long, just accrued numbers, receiving yardage, rushing yardage.

14:14Robert Mays: That to me is not what makes Hall of Famers. I just think that longevity should be part of this. But if you're just a stat patter for a very long time, that's not the most important thing. I think that if you look at it, like, let's call them five to seven year peaks, right? I think that's typically how I would think about it. And Steve Smith, there's a couple of them. I would say 2005 to 2012 is what I would do for Steve Smith. in part because he really doesn't become a full-time receiver until 2003. And then in 2004, he's hurt. And then 2005 is when he has his best season. Then you go from 2005 to 2012, that was the first two years of Cam.

14:48Robert Mays: So that's mostly the years that I was looking at to kind of figure out the best seven-year stretch for Steve Smith. And I was comparing it to seven-year stretches or five, six-year stretches for the other receivers that we're talking about here. So the number that really, really jumps out to me, independent of the fact that Steve Smith is seventh all-time in receiving yards. From 2005 to 2012, Steve Smith had 53 touchdowns over that span, which was seventh in the NFL. He had a ton of yards. He was right there at the top of the league. Between 2003 and 2012, only Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson averaged more yards per game than Steve Smith.

15:24Robert Mays: Reggie Wayne had 1 ,600 more yards during that stretch, but he also played in 27 more games, which is almost two full seasons. But the thing that really jumps out to me, and this is why I favor Steve Smith, I think, in this argument, even though Torrey Holt and Reggie Wayne were arguably more productive during their peaks. During that 2005-2012 stretch, Steve Smith had 37 % of the Panthers' total receiving yards during that time. 37%. Larry Fitzgerald, who is still one of the most ridiculous players in NFL history when you look at the numbers, was at 40%, which is insane. but then you look at a couple of the other guys, Reggie Wayne was at 26.5%.

16:08Robert Mays: And so if you're a part of one of those offenses, and I think Torrey Holt, it's a similar argument. Torrey Holt was at 33 % of yards, 31 % of touchdowns. Steve Smith was at 37 % of both. Steve Smith played with Jake DeLone for a majority of his career and was still doing this. And so while I think Reggie Wayne and Torrey Holt are both justifiably Hall of Famers, I actually think, Derek, that them playing in these historically great offenses, to me slightly takes away from their statistical cases and actually makes a guy like Steve Smith's case more compelling because he wasn't doing it in one of those sorts of offenses.

16:44Dave Helman: I think that almost cuts both ways because I think a player like Reggie Wayne could do that in a situation that was not at, like if he was playing with Jake Dillon, I think Reggie Wayne absolutely could have had seasons like that. It's just like he didn't need to be the number one guy in the same way. I do still think though that there is a, historically significant element to being a piece of those offenses that were like super incredible and like on the forefront of what NFL offenses looked like. And it's not really Steve Smith's fault that he wasn't a part of those. Like it's not his fault he gets drafted to the Panthers, but actually in my mind, there is something to being on those teams that were like very culturally significant for a long time.

17:24Robert Mays: I just wonder how much the cultural significance is driven by like the quarterback quality and the overall offense quality, right? It's probably a lot yeah it's i think you're right and that you can make an argument on either side the fact that you are if you're a part of an offense and you're one of the key pieces of an offense that has a nickname does it should it help or hurt your hall of fame case the answer is it probably should help it but i still think it's you were not as central to that team's success even if that team was more successful than somebody like steve smith was and if the panthers were some garbage ass team during this entire period, it would be a different conversation.

18:01Robert Mays: Steve Smith was incredible in the playoffs the first two times he was in the playoffs. Steve Smith, his first eight playoff games. So 2003, when the Panthers went to the Super Bowl, and 2005, when he burned the best defense I've ever watched in Chicago to the ground in the first round of the playoffs, he had 98 yards per game, Steve Smith, over those first eight playoff games, 1.33 EPA per target over his first eight playoff games. Of the 50 wide receivers with at least 25 playoff targets between 2003 and 2012, that ranks second among all players. The other guy that's up there that's really random, Hakeem Nix was crazy during the playoffs.

18:41Robert Mays: No, that's right. Yeah, that one was crazy. But you just look at what Steve Smith did in those playoffs. And again, the fact that the Panthers are not a bad team. Jake DeLone was their quarterback and they went to the Super Bowl And they were consistently dangerous in the playoffs twice because Steve Smith was so damn good.

18:58Derrik Klassen: Did you refresh yourself on who the other receivers were on that 2005 Panthers team?

19:03Robert Mays: I actually didn't look at that. No, was Mohamed still there?

19:06Derrik Klassen: No, that was after Mohamed 2005. So like this was when Steve Smith was first team, all pro 1500 yards, 100 receptions, 12 touchdowns. The next best statistically receivers on the Panthers roster that year were 37 year old Ricky Prohl. Amazing. and current Ravens receivers coach, Keary Colbert, who they each caught 25 balls. So it really, I mean, it was Steve Smith and not, not a whole lot else going. And he rolls the, uh, Torrey Holt, Steve Smith connective tissue. There you go.

19:37Robert Mays: Six degrees of Kevin Bacon for NFL receivers.

19:41Derrik Klassen: So I, I think you make a great point and it's, I, I hate the idea of penalizing a guy who's part of a, like a generational offense, but it carries a lot more weight to me when a guy is this great, not with that amount of supporting talent. Absolutely. Like it's, it's, it is not Reggie Wayne or Torrey Holt's fault that those are the circumstances they wound up in. And maybe those teams never achieve the same highs without them, but you can't completely ignore that. And then you look at what Steve Smith did, which a, with a muscle at much lesser supporting cast. It's really impressive.

20:17Robert Mays: in 2005 when steve smith was first team all pro derrick jake delone threw for 3 400 yards so steve smith was what half of them pretty much yes i it just what he had to do within that offense is to me is one of the biggest arguments and i think the other side of this argument for steve smith he's like an all-time nfl character like just think about how many steve smith moments we have. I do think that carries weight, like the ice up sun and like all the different little moments we got from Steve Smith as this just prominent NFL, like doing like wrestling shoots after games to Albert Breer walking off the field.

20:59Robert Mays: He was a singular character in the NFL during the time in which he played. And to me, when you combine that with the production, the considerations about the situation that he was playing in, I think that Steve Smith absolutely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

21:12Derrik Klassen: You've swayed me to, I brought up Torrey Holt and didn't mention Steve Smith, which was not fair of me. And you have swayed me to, I mean, I would have said Steve Smith is a Hall of Famer before we did this, but I feel a lot more strongly about it than I did 12 minutes ago. What's your relationship with Steve Smith?

21:30Dave Helman: I mean, so actually, I very fondly remember, obviously the Cam Newton rookie year, because that was like a revival for steve smith and you know he was getting a little bit up there and then obviously the team was horrible before then they have like a magic the quarterback the year before that oh buddy yeah he was uh can you imagine that by the way going from jimmy clausen to actually this is a connective tissue here reggie wayne going from like curtis painter and all that shit to andrew luck and then and then steve smith having gone from jimmy clausen to cam newton i mean just how incredible that was for those two guys um but that 2014 ravens year is an offense I very like I have very like kind feelings for I love that buddy it's gonna come up again on this show don't you worry that's that's interesting okay I'm gonna be ready for that because like the least surprising thing I've ever heard like the Rick Denison Gary Kubiak offense like Joe Flacco had kind of revived after like being a little bit weird after the Super Bowl like Justin Forsett was like came out of nowhere for them with and was incredible like and then Steve Smith led that team in receiving with a thousand yards like that obviously that was not the best Steve Smith ever was, but I do have very kind memories of like that team in that moment.

22:39Derrik Klassen: The 2016 Cowboys, that was the Zeke Dak rookie year. They went 13 and three. They had a day three pick. You probably remember Anthony Brown steps in rookie starter at nickel played a big role on that team and they beat the Ravens that year. And it was a win. And I just remember rookie Anthony Brown came into the locker room and was like fuming about what an asshole Steve Smith was. And this was 37 year old Steve Smith. And like this rookie is just like, I hate that guy. And I was like, it's incredible that at 37, Steve Smith is still getting under people's skin and giving people work in the NFL.

23:18Derrik Klassen: It's awesome.

23:19Robert Mays: That shit matters to me. And I think the last point I want to make, Steve Smith has a thousand more receiving yards than any other player in NFL history that's 5 '11 or shorter. Like the idea that Steve Smith did all of this at five, nine, only Antonio Brown and Tyree kill have more yards per game in the history of the NFL among players that are five, 11 or shorter. And obviously Antonio Brown's, you know, fell off a cliff. We didn't, we didn't see the late career Antonio Brown. We really haven't even gotten to like late career Tyree kill. How old is Tyree kill right now? So Tyree kill is 32. Steve Smith was playing until he was like 36.

23:55Robert Mays: so we have like multiple more years of Steve Smith just having like 800 yard seasons that 2016

24:00Derrik Klassen: 2016 at 37 70 catches for 800 yards and five touchdowns like a perfectly nice season at the

24:07Robert Mays: age of 37 to do what he did at 5 9 and we talk about guys playing bigger than they are I'm not sure that applies to like anyone in NFL history at any position more than it does Steve Smith doing what he did with like the physical profile he was bringing to the table he probably led

24:25Dave Helman: teams astray in terms of like I'm sure during the Steve Smith era team saw another 5 '9 5 '10 guy and they were like oh he's pretty scrappy we could get him to be like Steve Smith but he no they're like he was kind of a unique I think the uniqueness of Steve Smith is actually like the most compelling argument for him is that him doing that at that size and then him being being the personality that he was I do think that like if there's anything that pushes him over the edge that

24:47Derrik Klassen: probably is it I would like to see all three of these guys get in and I don't know maybe somebody would say it cheapens it if you just like expand the class for a year but otherwise i just think it becomes this conundrum where receiver numbers are only going to go up because of the way that the game has changed and give it another decade and maybe these resumes won't look as good as they do right now i just i think it would be smart to get this out of the way because it's clearly it's been a pain in the voting committee's ass for a minute at this point and just just resolve it all three of these guys are deserving if you got to bend the rules a little bit for them like who's honestly going to complain about that i wouldn't have to dig into it now but sando

25:26Robert Mays: has written about this where they've changed the voting rules obviously like belichick is the best recent example of the impact of that but they've changed the voting rules to make it harder to get in and so i think we're going to be seeing even fewer guys get in and the wide receiver log jam it's coming and i don't think it's going to be stopping anytime soon but i think steve smith should be in dave does what's your vote on steve smith eric man i'm in steve smith was awesome All right, let's take our first quick break and then see if we can keep somebody out of the Hall of Fame when we get back.

26:19Dave Helman: tea, and cashmere. And finally, Soundscape, a fresh clearing rush that restores your energy. Ground your space, quiet your mind, and explore the Sense of Calm collection at pura.com slash calm.

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26:58Robert Mays: Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio.

27:33Robert Mays: All right, Dave, you're up. Who was your first person that you would like to nominate for Camcourt?

27:38Derrik Klassen: When I knew we were doing this show, So I felt like I had an obligation, given my background, given where I come from in my career, to make the case for a guy who has gone overlooked for far too long and is still waiting for that phone call or knock on the door, however they do it these days. Darren Woodson. I would very much like to see Darren Woodson into the Hall of Fame as one of the all time underappreciated guys. And I think this is a wonderful time to be talking about Darren Woodson's legacy because of what is happening at the safety position in the NFL right now and how excited we get for good reason.

28:19Derrik Klassen: I'm not trying to knock these guys, but how excited we get about Kyle Hamilton and what Nick Imanwari did in his rookie year. And it's so exciting to say, oh, my oh, my God, you don't have to match personnel when these guys play like they're such a cheat code. And it sounds very new and fresh and amazing. And then you stop and think about it and you say that Darren Woodson was doing this shit in the mid 90s. Like Darren Woodson is one of the original blueprint skeleton key players and probably the most underappreciated member of the Cowboys dynasty of the 1990s. He's a three time first team all pro at safety, was on all three Cowboys 90s Super Bowl teams, but he was a starter for the second two.

29:02Derrik Klassen: First team all pro, not only three times, but three times in a row. Peter Rowe is really impressive. He was one of the best safeties in the NFL for a three-year stretch. Really a remarkably similar career trajectory to Leroy Butler, who just got in for the Green Bay Packers, another all-time underappreciated guy. And honestly, when Butler got in, happy for him, but I was like, okay, well, we should do right by both of these guys because they had very similar careers for teams that really kind of defined the 1990s. so yeah I if you're unfamiliar because we are I mean we're talking about 1992 to 2003 I believe was his last season college linebacker at Arizona State drafted in the second round Cowboys very quickly move him to safety and as his career went along we're like oh shit this guy could play in the slot if we need him to and he just never came off the field you know third downs passing situations he played in the slot they put him in the slot against I mean they were not afraid to put him in the slot against anybody like you can go find clips of him covering Jerry Rice from the slot he played as an overhang player against tight ends he was great in coverage he's the Cowboys all-time leading tackler like I said he was on all three of those teams but I think he gets drastically overshadowed obviously you're going to get overshadowed by the triplets Aikman Smith and Irvin because of the statistics but even on defense Charles Haley and then later Deion Sanders are like two of the biggest personalities in NFL history.

30:30Derrik Klassen: And Woody is just, I mean, he's a wonderful guy, but he is not that like flamboyant, bombastic personality. He's a very down-to-earth, you know, business-minded guy. And so I think he got overshadowed from that aspect of it. And I think when there's that many other like Hall of Fame talents on a team, you just sort of get forgotten about. And now we're here. He's been eligible for 18 years at this point. So like we're coming up on him needing to be switched to being a senior candidate, which I just think is a shame. Like I think he's absolutely deserving of being a modern era Hall of Famer. And he's only got two more years for that to happen.

31:07Robert Mays: There's only 36 total DBs in the Hall of Fame. I think actually that number is might be a little bit higher now because I don't think this includes the Roy Butler. I think it's from a couple of years ago. I'm looking just at the Pro Football Hall of Fame website just by position. and I think when you look at this group of players you realize why it's been tough for a guy like Darren Woodson to get in because there are a lot of guys from his era that just are a little bit more prominent like Brian Dawkins came into the league in 1996 Rod Woodson played from 1987 to 2003 I know Rod Woodson played some corner but he also played safety later in his career Aeneas Williams was in the league from 1991 to 2004 and Dion like you mentioned and then we had other safeties and this is also part of the problem the fact that he's been fighting to get in as guys like Troy Palomalo and Ed Reed became a I think Palomalo

31:55Derrik Klassen: and Reed he needed to go in before they did because they their careers are I mean they're two of the best to ever do it and so it wasn't surprising that either one of those guys went in ahead of him I think they could have put him in years before those two guys became Hall of Famers and this wouldn't have been a problem but yeah he got stuck behind guys that had better resumes Derek, I don't think you watched Darren Woodson. I'm not sure why I'm out.

32:19Dave Helman: I did not. You're going to have to contribute to this. I really don't. I appreciate Dave throwing out a safety because I actually have another one myself. So I think that this is an interesting way that we've taken this turn. But yeah, I don't have a whole lot to say about Darren Woodson, sadly. I think he probably, when did he retire? By the time I was like nine?

32:36Derrik Klassen: He retired in 2003. I was six years old.

32:40Dave Helman: So I don't know if my vote really counts for this one.

32:43Derrik Klassen: We're losing recipes.

32:44Robert Mays: I would say the only thing that if you look at like, you know, obviously there's no easy way to do this in football like there is in baseball because the statistical cases make your pro comps and the black ink and all of that stuff a lot easier to figure out. But if you look at similar players in like pro football reference, it's like half Hall Famers and half not. And so I think that it's not necessarily the slam dunk for him that it would be for some of the other guys that we're talking about.

33:10Derrik Klassen: It's clearly not a slam dunk if you're on year 18. and it's and that you see this happen a lot with guys where the groundswell of support doesn't really build until it's starting to feel too late yeah and i'm i'm nervous that that's what's happening with woody i mean i'm presenting him i would vote for him to be in the hall of fame but the fact that we're two years out from the end of his modern candidacy and i mean we got some heavy hitters coming down the pipe like i can't say i'm really optimistic that it's going to happen for him, I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

33:43Robert Mays: I guess my art, if I was trying to play devil's advocate, he really only has like a five year peak, right? He goes to five Pro Bowls in five seasons with three first team, all pros. When you have that sort of peak where it's, it is pretty short, all things considered, you kind of have to have like an undeniable all time transcendent career to get in with that sort of peak. Like the best example to me is like a Patrick Willis or a Calvin Johnson. Terrell Davis. Yeah. I just, yeah. And I just, I wonder, and that Terrell Davis, Terrell Davis is obviously such a unique case. The Terrell Davis playoff stuff is like hugely important.

34:19Robert Mays: Like what Terrell Davis did in those, but if you go, if you're curious, just go look at Terrell Davis's playoff stats on pro football reference. It's absurd. Like it is otherworldly how good Terrell Davis was in the playoffs. And I do think something like that should matter. Like if your team won back-to-back Super Bowls and you were the most important player in that happening, I think that plays into it.

34:40Derrik Klassen: I think if I'm arguing against myself, and I've said this to Cowboys fans before as well, I think pretty much every franchise has a guy like Darren Woodson, where you're in the ring of honor, you have a very impressive resume and a whole bunch of accolades. Is it enough to get you that final step over the door into Canton? I mean, you could dig up a guy on every single team that is in a similar situation. And so that's another reason why I don't feel terribly optimistic about it.

35:12Robert Mays: I'm kind of on the fence about it. And this shouldn't happen, but it's similar to a position we're going to talk about a little bit later. Like there are no guards in the Hall of Fame. Like there are very few players at that position. And I think in order to get in at that position, you have to be one of those like all time players. And I think safety is kind of similar. And if you stack up Darren Woodson's career with, again, just playing doubles advocate with a Troy Palomalu, with a Ronnie Lott, with a John Lynch, all of those guys. Do you think he is in the same general tier, in the same general air as those types of players?

35:47Derrik Klassen: Like Ronnie Lott, Paul Amalu, Ed Reed, no. I think he's a step down from guys like that, and that's how you wind up on year 18 without being in. I would say, and I brought it up for a reason, I think what helps a guy like Woody is if you're paying close enough attention to be like that this guy was like a big nickel safety decades before it was in vogue like he was playing in the slot he was doing all that type of shit and it unfortunately it's just harder to appreciate that type of shit because we don't we don't have access to all 22 from 1993 part of the

36:23Robert Mays: problem is that for somebody like this obviously you're very close to it this is somebody where like i'd have to go talk to people yeah like talk to people that were in a league and that's what really good Hall of Fame voters. That's what they do.

36:33Derrik Klassen: I will say, thank you for saying that, because two big votes of confidence while I was doing research for this, two people that advocated for Darren Woodson to be in the Hall of Fame as often as they could, Ron Wolfe and Bill Parcells. And I mean, what better votes do you want than the GM of the 90s Packers who built those incredible teams? And then obviously Bill Parcells doesn't need an introduction. And they both regularly backed Darren Woodson's candidacy because of how good a player he was and what he meant to those defenses.

37:06Robert Mays: I'm copping out, but I'm undecided. I would have to think about it, talk to more people about it before I had an actual answer. And Derek, I assume, is...

37:16Dave Helman: I just have to say no. I feel like it would be disingenuous for me to say yes.

37:21Derrik Klassen: I mean, at the end of the day, unfortunately for Woody, it's year 18 of this weight. And he's I mean, he's been a finalist for like four years in a row at this point. So clearly enough people have reservations. This is far from a slam dunk, but I absolutely think he's deserving.

37:37Robert Mays: Derek, who's your next one?

37:40Dave Helman: So mine is actually a sort of a similar case. I will I'll start off the bat. This is not a player I expect to get in, but is someone who I think very much deserves his flowers and actually kind of alongside one other player defined his position in the 2010s eric barry was a hall of fame level talent obviously his career got cut short with injuries towards the end but his the way that he started his career and his peak was incredible first though first of all he was the fifth overall pick in his draft ahead of earl thomas by the way like he was the prototype safety 6 '1 211 ran like a 4 '4 had 90th inch or 90th percentile wingspan like he was he was what you wanted at that position came into the league immediately a pro bowler within his first seven seasons like before his his career got derailed by injuries in 2017 he made five pro bowls he made three first team all pros the two seasons he did not make the pro bowl were 2011 he tore his acl and then 2014 he had hodgkin's lymphoma and then came back and the following two years made first team all pro i think it's very easy to be like earl thomas defined safeties in the 2010s and he did because the legion of boom was something the other guy that was that in my mind was eric berry you could move him everywhere he hit he tackled he could cover anybody he could play man to man like eric berry was a very special player who you're obviously having to make the case that like his peak was good enough given he did not have the longevity but his peak was electric derrick's gonna put me in the unenviable position of arguing against

39:14Derrik Klassen: the guy who bounced back from lymphoma. That's fun. Thanks, Derek.

39:19Robert Mays: Shockingly, he was the comeback player of the year that season.

39:22Derrik Klassen: You don't say, yeah. I love that we're talking about it. I never know where you're going to take it, Derek, and I always appreciate that. I mean, I love Derek Berry as a player. I think my gut reaction, and we don't know each other's guys going in, so this is my first. I'm looking through Eric Berry's resume as we're talking. And I mean, at the end of the day, you're talking about five full seasons of football. Is that enough? Were you dominant enough? And I mean, he's three time first team all pro. I get it. He was one of the best safeties in the league. But I mean, you're talking about how many games is that?

40:00Derrik Klassen: Like. 75 games total. I mean, it just it doesn't it doesn't feel like a lot. Like when you're talking about the very best of the very best. I mean, you just brought up Therrell Davis. And I like that is a decent comp. But again, Terrell Davis dominated the playoffs to like an insane degree. He had that thing that made him stand out a little bit more. And I love Eric Berry, but I don't know if this, I don't know if five full seasons of play can get me there.

40:30Robert Mays: It was enough to get him on the all decade team.

40:33Derrik Klassen: Exactly. All decade team.

40:35Dave Helman: Great equalizer. All decade team only having played half the decade is kind of crazy. Yeah.

40:45Robert Mays: where do we think Earl Thomas, where do we think, where do we think we end up with Earl Thomas? You think Earl Thomas eventually does get in? Cause my assumption is probably,

40:52Derrik Klassen: yes. I think he eventually gets in. This is just my hunch. I haven't talked to anybody about it, but I think the, the late career and post-career antics will slow that down. And like, people are like, all right, well, we've got a log jam anyway. Maybe we can wait on that a little while. That would be my guess. But I think, I think Earl Thomas will absolutely get in eventually.

41:15Robert Mays: I think my gut instinct is that Eric Berry is like the other defining safety of that era. And if you are like one of, if you're like fielding a team, right? We got 22 guys and you are one of the defining players. Like again, what the all decade team is, you are one of the defining players at your position over a 10 year span in the NFL. I tend to think yes, but then if we're doing it that way, does every player on the all decade team deserve to be in the hall of fame? and should they i mean like chris harris is on the all decade team at corner for that for the 2010s is chris harris a hall of famer i probably not right he was awesome but probably not i'm not sure he is and then tyron matthews also on the all 2010s all decade team is like a db and so is tyron matthew more deserving than eric berry to be in the hall of fame

42:05Dave Helman: you could i mean the all i don't think so personally but i i understand why you would pick that Tyran Matthew has more of like a if you're pulling the culturally significant card like obviously what he was in college it was was incredible and then some of the pick six stuff like it's I get why it would be easy to lean that way but to me like again Eric Berry was the prototype for what a safety should look like and then what you said and this was my guiding light for picking him Earl Thomas like as a free safety was the defining safety of his era as a do-it-all everything else who is my second safety it in my mind for that stretch of 2010 to 2016

42:41Derrik Klassen: it was eric berry the all decade thing opens up some interesting possibilities because like marshawn lynch and leshawn mccoy were all decade running backs on in the 2010s and i think they're like marshawn lynch is all well i i'm not trying to say yes or no in either way but like they're fringe guys you know like they're guys that i don't think people would say are slam dunks okay so this also makes me think a guy that i absolutely belongs in the hall of fame but had a shorter career than many patrick willis he played two more two full seasons more than eric barry

43:19Dave Helman: hundred was in the hall of fame no i'm but like patrick willis is like you're gonna have a short

43:23Derrik Klassen: career yeah patrick willis is the poster boy for like you had a short career but you were so damn I'm good. It doesn't matter. And like, does Eric Berry meet the Patrick Willis threshold? I think no.

43:34Robert Mays: I think that's probably where I land on it. Like if I'm really thinking about it, I think that's the right way to frame the question. Same as like Calvin Johnson. It's like, were you so good in that five to six year period that it's just undeniable that you belong where you don't even have to think about it. You don't even have to squint. You don't have to go back and forth whatsoever. And I think if you're if we're talking about five years, that should be the threshold. And I probably would say he doesn't get there, but Eric Berry was a phenomenal football player to be the fifth overall pick in the draft at safety and be as good as you're supposed to be.

44:06Robert Mays: That happens so infrequently. And Eric Berry absolutely was that to take it another level of fear of horses.

44:12Derrik Klassen: You, you cannot, you cannot talk about it without talking about the horse video. See,

44:18Dave Helman: if we're doing like cultural personality stuff like that, that sticks, right?

44:21Robert Mays: Does that mean that Robbie Anderson gets in for the, uh, Yeah, I mean, why not? It's worth a conversation as a college football junkie, too.

44:31Derrik Klassen: This may only matter to me, but I love it when a guy delivers so thoroughly on the hype. And Eric Berry was he was the type of dude where like Tennessee fans celebrated when he committed. And and like the day one on campus, he was the guy and he was every bit as good as he was supposed to be all the way up until being a three time all pro. and that's just always really fun. But at the end of the day, I think 87 starts in the NFL feels like too few. That's my gut reaction. But I feel like a total asshole for arguing against the guy that beat cancer. I love Eric Berry. Sorry.

45:11Dave Helman: I think the Patrick Willis line probably is the way to think about it. I think Willis made five first-team all pros. Eric Berry only made three. why it hurts so bad is like he was good enough if not for like getting cancer that year and not for tearing his ACL like he very well might have had seven all pros and five or seven pro bowls and five all pros the way that Willis did but you know ifs and buts I think there would be a lot of other hall of famers and so this was a player I probably knew was not going to go in but just a very special player in his time and again this is like right around when I really seriously started watching and appreciating football and he was just he was electric man he was so so good

45:50Robert Mays: all right let's take one more quick break here and then come back and chat about a few more of

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47:33Robert Mays: All right, we've alluded to it a couple times so far on the recording that this is the easiest option for me of all time. Talk to me about Marshall Yanda, Robert. Marshall Yanda is my nominee here. I mean, obviously for offensive linemen, it's a little bit different. You truly are going by accolades when it comes to whether these guys get in. Marshall Yanda was a seven-time first or second team All-Pro. He was an eight-time Pro Bowler. He did that seven-time first or second team All-Pro. Did that in nine seasons. And he really did it in eight seasons because he missed almost all of the 2017 season.

48:09Robert Mays: So for an eight-year period, almost a decade, he was consensus the first or second best red guard in the NFL. And he played at a time when Zach Martin was playing. There was real, real competition during that stretch when Marshall Yonda was in the league. And so you just look at where he was standing-wise compared to players in his position. I think that even on that alone, he deserves to get in. You're a seven-time first or second team All-Pro. I think that's probably enough to be a Hall of Famer. And that's before you get into like the what Marshall Yonda was as a player arguments. I, my senior high school, I played right guard in a single back zone running scheme.

48:49Robert Mays: Like the act of watching a combination block between the center and the right guard on a one technique or a shade and the rhythms of that, the timing on it, when you come off of it, that to me is like one of the most beautiful things that can exist on an NFL field or on a football field period. there was no one I've ever watched play football that does that exact thing like Marshall Yonda did when he was on the Ravens. And that 2014 season is my favorite Marshall Yonda season because Kubiak's the OC, Rick Dennison's there, it's zone running all the time. And so you just watch it over and over and over again.

49:24Robert Mays: And his ability to, you watch those like hip to hip blocks and like, he's like just given a little bit of a hip check and then climbing to the second level, understanding exactly how to operate in space on those plays understanding exactly how to operate with the guy next to him i don't think anybody i've watched play guard in the league has done it at that level in that sort of system the way that marshall yonda did when he was able to play in that sort of offense in baltimore and that's beyond before you get to like what he was as a pass blocker all of that stuff but aesthetically accolades all of it i think that he is one of those rare guards in my opinion that does deserve to be in the hall of fame well hopefully we're

50:03Derrik Klassen: getting to a point where it's not as unheard of for a guard to make it into the hall of fame if

50:08Robert Mays: he's of the caliber of a marshal yanda him and jari evans to me have very very real cases jari

50:14Derrik Klassen: evans is the guy that i he was going to be my backup if i needed one i didn't wind up needing one but i think that's absolutely a name worth saying and i mean zach martin will be in like that's going to happen so that's already one that you can count on so hopefully we're at a point where you can count on a guard hearing his name at least every few years or so or at least like once a decade at least like that doesn't feel like too much to ask he was the gold standard for what

50:39Dave Helman: interior offensive line play looked like like again i i kept i feel like i've kept saying this exact line over the last handful of shows but like when i seriously started doing this was like 2013 2011 like 2014 again that 2014 Ravens team what he was able to do is what it's supposed to look like like him and Zuta Jeremy Zuta was their center at the time Jeremy Zuta man he was good that year he was really good that year I loved Jeremy Zuta at his best he could move man and again those two just the ballet that those two would put together in terms of again being able to combo climbing to the second level their communication like it worked as well as it did and you get the season you get out of Justin Forsett because of the way that those guys were able to to move people and to communicate and to get to the second level like yanda to be so obviously the gold standard at a position that i think interior line play like really appreciating it it's even harder to appreciate than tackle play because like tackle play you can watch them like especially in pass protection it's like you just get left on an island it's like yeah trent williams you just leave him on an island that's not really how like interior play works but to be able to watch martial yanda for seven eight nine years and for him to so obviously be the gold standard for what it looked like at that position for that long he to me is like again you can't say no-brainer just because interior line is so weird for the hall of fame but he to me is like no-brainer was absolutely one of the best of his position for a very long time he was a legitimate weapon as a

52:03Robert Mays: run blocker and that's before even mentioning what he did in pass protection in 2012 he didn't give up a sack he gave up 14 total pressures in 2011 and beyond that like what he did down to down watching him as a pass blocker stylistically he was unlike anybody else go back and watch if you and you can find the clips anywhere the games where he played against geno atkins from like 2010 ish to like 2014 those were wars and geno atkins would embarrass people like just as a pure power bull rusher, he would embarrass people. And I remember I wrote a story about Marsha Ronda in 2017. I went to Baltimore.

52:41Robert Mays: I spent a lot of time with him. I remember sitting in the hallway of the Ravens facility on like a plastic folding table, just talking with him about his entire career. And we were talking about what he would do in those moments against Geno Atkins. And you can see clips of it where whenever he got bull rushed, his like hop, hop, hop technique to like anchor down and slow guys down and shut those power moves down was on like anybody else like his ability to regain control of those reps no one at guard could do that Zach Martin was a better and more technically proficient pass protector than Marshall Yonda was but just like the pure brute strength in those moments to be able to shut plays like that down especially from somebody like Gino Atkins nobody did it like that and there are so many moments in so many different areas where you watch Marshall Yonda play and you're like Nobody did it like that.

53:32Robert Mays: And to me, that's what a Hall of Famer is.

53:35Derrik Klassen: It's a depressing thing about doing an exercise like this where, like I know Yonda was a finalist last year, and you look at his resume and you're like, ah, he'll be in. But it's actually the second year he's been a finalist and not gotten in. God's is tough. And like I said, you think about some of the names that are coming and the finite number of spaces. Like it bothers me that he's not already in, And I can't say it would be surprising if he has to wait a little while longer, but I think that's bullshit.

54:03Robert Mays: The last anecdote that I wanted to share is it's the lead to the story that I wrote almost 10 years ago now, but his rookie year is the only year he played with Jonathan Ogden. So Yana's first year was 2007, which was Billick was still the coach there. And in the Ravens locker room, they had plaques listing off all of their like accolades. And he saw the plaque in Jonathan Ogden's locker and was just like, he went to like 10 Pro Bowls in a row. Like, that's insane. Like, I couldn't even imagine having that sort of career. I'm like sharing a locker room with this person. And then Marshall Yonda was an eight-time Pro Bowler in like eight years and was first or second team All-Pro in seven or eight years.

54:42Robert Mays: And so it's just incredibly cool that like one of his first thoughts as a professional player was, I can't even imagine having a career like that. And obviously Jonathan Dock is an all-time great player, but then you look back with a little bit of perspective what Marshall Yonda's career is, And he kind of was like that level of player at guard in a way that he never could have imagined. And I always found that very cool.

55:01Dave Helman: And I think that's actually a really cool part of Yanda's. Like if you look at his career overall, because then he catches like the tail end of Jonathan Ogden there. So to be able to play with him is cool. The next handful of years are like you're still playing with like some really incredible peak Ravens defenses with like Ray Lewis, Ed Reed. Obviously, he helps get them to the 2012 Super Bowl that they go and win. So he's part of that era of the Ravens. And then his last two years in the league are 2018 and 2019 Lamar. Like that is an incredibly cool way to do it. And he was like, he went out on top too, which I always think is a really nice thing when players can do.

55:33Dave Helman: Like he made the pro bowl and then was like, I'm good, actually. Like, that's it. Like, it's really, really cool. And I think special when players are able to do that.

55:40Robert Mays: His final season in the league, he was second team all pro for the team that had the best offense in the NFL in 2019. Not a bad final act as an NFL player. So one of my all-time favorite players was, odds were off the board in Vegas that I would bring him up on this show. But like I said, I was excited to do it.

55:57Derrik Klassen: I was perusing names, trying to decide who to talk about. I was like, yeah, that'll be taken care of.

56:04Robert Mays: Who's your last guy? And then there's one more guy I want to bring up and have a conversation about after we do this.

56:08Derrik Klassen: I went old school with both of mine. And I think this is a really interesting conversation because it's the ultimate like eye test versus accolades debate. A little similar to Eric Berry, but with Eric Berry, it's availability more so than anything. My guy played a ton of football and racked up a lot of statistics, but doesn't have a whole lot of awards to show for it. And his name is Fred Taylor. and it is the ultimate test of like well what's you know like what what trophies what designations do you have because fred taylor was only second team all pro one time and he only made one pro but if you've ever seen fred taylor play football that that can't be true like that just that can't that can't be real fred taylor is amazing he's 18th all time in career rushing yardage every single player above him is either in the Hall of Fame or will be because the three running backs who aren't in Canton yet who have rushed for more yards than Fred Taylor are Frank Gore, Adrian Peterson, and Derek Henry.

57:13Derrik Klassen: You think Frank Gore is a Hall of Famer? I think he will be eventually. I think third all-time in rushing is too much to ignore.

57:20Dave Helman: So when you said all the compiling stats and stuff, I thought we were going to go for Frank Gore and I was going to give an easy no. I don't think Frank Gore is a Hall of Famer, but I don't want to derail from Fred Taylor and talk about Frank Gore.

57:30Derrik Klassen: Okay, at the very least, even if you don't think Frank Gore is a Hall of Famer, the guys above, I mean, Adrian Peterson, Derek Henry absolutely are. Like there's no, I can't hear a debate there. And so at the very least, the guys above him have strong, strong cases for Canton.

57:44Robert Mays: But so the reason I bring that up and the reason I asked that question, do we think that Fred Taylor's career is akin to what Frank Gore did in the sense that he played for a very long time and was consistently good for a very long time? And should we be rewarding careers like that by putting those guys in the Hall of Fame?

58:01Derrik Klassen: I don't I don't agree, because actually, Fred, Fred Taylor had some durability issues of his own, particularly early in his career. He missed a huge chunk of games in his second season. He barely had a 2001 season and he had several other stretches. He missed 20 percent of his regular season games as as an NFL player due to injury. And so he wasn't that durable and it wasn't all stat padding. I think Fred Taylor's biggest problem, to be fair to people who might not think he could go in, he played at like the peak of running back production in arguably the history of the NFL. That's the tough part of it.

58:41Derrik Klassen: And I think he played on a lot of bad teams in a small market and was easy to overlook for a lot of his NFL career. And looking back through it, I was pretty struck by, I think Fred Taylor had really shit in-season luck. Like when he was truly outstanding, he picked a bad time to do it. In 1998, his rookie year, he rushed for 1 ,200 yards and 14 touchdowns with another 400 receiving yards as a rookie. But who else was a rookie in the NFL in 1998? he lost rookie of the year to Randy Moss

59:21Robert Mays: I was thinking about running back who else was a running back in that team

59:25Derrik Klassen: he lost rookie of the year to Randy Moss and Peyton Manning was a rookie as well and got votes so like you had an electric rookie season the same year as arguably the best receiver ever also Jamal Anderson had an 1800 yard season that year the year 2000 1400 yards and 12 touchdowns but he does it the same year what's that? marvelous uh we're getting there you're skipping ahead in 2000 it was marshall falk who had a generational season and won every award you could possibly win 2002 he goes for almost 1408 touchdowns with 400 receiving yards that is when ricky williams set the league on fire with almost 1900 yards uh and priest holmes had one of his insane seasons as well then in 2003 1500 yard rushing season and six touchdowns for Fred Taylor, Jamal Lewis goes for 2000 yards on top of Priest Holmes also having a 27 touchdown season, which is just, it's insane what LaDainian Tomlinson and Priest Holmes were doing in the, in the mid two thousands.

1:00:27Derrik Klassen: So he had like, he had four or five of these truly outstanding seasons, but there was always somebody that was doing it a little bit better than he was. Does that mean that he's not like an all-time NFL talent?

1:00:42Robert Mays: I think those are really difficult conversations. It is.

1:00:45Derrik Klassen: It's an incredibly difficult conversation.

1:00:47Robert Mays: The guy that I did not want to bring up here because I want to talk about a quarterback in a second. I didn't want this to be super quarterback heavy. Somebody that I will make a case for like partly as a bit, partly with my chest is Phil Burbers. And I think this is very similar, right? It's like if you look at Philip Rivers's career and what he was, it's one of the most productive NFL passing careers of all time. But Philip Rivers was never one of the best three to four quarterbacks in the NFL in a given time. And so even if you are like an all time productive player at the position, if you were never a top four player at your position at any point consistently, should you be in the Hall of Fame?

1:01:26Dave Helman: And I think that matters. I think Hall of Fame to me is like the starting point should be like basically what you actually said earlier when we were talking about Eric Berry of like, if I'm building the starting 22 for the, like during whatever the prime of your career was, would you be on it?

1:01:42Robert Mays: And for running backs, I think it goes too deep, right? It goes too deep and running back.

1:01:46Dave Helman: But again, even still, it's like LT's playing at that time. Like there were just so many guys that I think it would be hard to get there.

1:01:53Derrik Klassen: What sucks though is like, obviously LT and Marshall Falk like unquestionably had better careers than Fred Taylor. They're like two of the best to ever do it. But what sucks for Fred Taylor is he had a better career than Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes, like over the totality of what they did. But like I said, they had these singular supernova sort of seasons when he was doing it as well. But like the totality, I mean, I guess it's hard to say Fred Taylor had a better career than Priest Holmes when Priest Holmes was a three-time first-team All-Pro. But, like, over the course of what they did, like 12 years in the NFL, Fred Taylor winds up with what was the total number?

1:02:34Derrik Klassen: Just shy of 12 ,000 rushing yards? Like, the total picture is really, really impressive. But these other guys just had these spikes that were better than anything he was able to put together.

1:02:46Robert Mays: This is maybe personal bias, and just like the way that I think about it, the spikes matter more to me. I've always been a peak person over a longevity. And obviously you have to balance it a little bit, right? We just did this with Eric Berry, but I've always been like, if you have five transcendent seasons, is that better than having 10 really good seasons? And I think in, and whether this is right or wrong, I would hear both sides of the argument. I have always tended to default to the five transcendent seasons as like how I value whether guys should be in the Hall of Fame.

1:03:18Dave Helman: That's also generally how I've done it. Fred Taylor to me feels closer to like Stephen Jackson tier of like, I get why we would think about it. Like, you know, made three all there. They're actually a career statistics are pretty similar, except for Jackson actually had a lot more as a receiver. He to me is closer to like that category of player. Cause again, that like consistently very, very good. I'm not sure I ever thought Stephen Jackson was the best running back in the NFL.

1:03:45Robert Mays: Here's a hot take. Like, is Fred Taylor even the guy from those offenses that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

1:03:51Derrik Klassen: I thought about making a case for Jimmy Smith as well. But I just always loved watching Fred Taylor play. And also, on top of that, I avoided Torrey Holt and Reggie Wayne for the same reason. Figuring out the receiver situation is just a nightmare. I mean, it's tough. And it's only going to get tougher as we go. I think I'm holding off on Fred Taylor. I also land on no. I don't think that is a controversial take because he's made it to finalists before, and he only made it to semifinalists this year. So I feel like he lost some of the momentum he had to get in. And Adrian Peterson's coming up soon.

1:04:30Derrik Klassen: Like, I can't say I feel good about it. The peak versus longevity case in this stretch is Fred Taylor against Sean Alexander.

1:04:38Robert Mays: And I don't think Sean Alexander's a Hall of Famer either.

1:04:40Derrik Klassen: And he had that massive, monster five-year peak that included a... Made the batman. Yeah. Yeah. I will say, because I think overall you're right that you got to do something more than just pad stats for a really long time. But I think at his best, Fred Taylor was better than that. Like Fred Taylor was exceptional at his peak, like late 90s, early 2000s with those Jags teams. And what sucks for him, he got into the league in 98. I think the Jags made the playoffs his first two years in the league. and I don't think they did it again until 2007. And so, like, I mean, in his peak prime years as a running back, the Jags were just a sorry team.

1:05:24Derrik Klassen: And I think we as media and people in general, I don't think people were as good at paying attention to what was going on in small markets in the early 2000s as they are now. Like, I think Fred Taylor would be a much more appreciated player today than he was then.

1:05:41Robert Mays: Last guy I want to talk about. because it's just current. And we were having this discussion about him at some point this offseason when it was clear that he was going to retire and we just never did it. Do we think Russell Wilson is a Hall of Famer?

1:05:55Derrik Klassen: So at the end of this, you just want to throw a grenade into the conversation.

1:06:00Robert Mays: I wasn't going to make a case for him.

1:06:02Derrik Klassen: Yeah, this is not like an official Canton Court nomination.

1:06:04Robert Mays: Because I don't know where I fall on this. Like, I just wanted to, I was curious the cases for and against that you guys would have about whether you think Russell Wilson belongs in the Hall of Fame.

1:06:14Dave Helman: I do not. I think it's that easy for you. Yes. I think he was like, I think he was a very good player for stretches. I think some of his peaks towards the end of the 2010s where I think a little bit like some of the numbers that he was able to put up were like, in spite of some of his issues, like I think some of what he was doing was kind of hurting the offense. And then the other thing is like, I think even though he played well, obviously early in his career, those teams that he won and went to the Super Bowls on were, to me, defined by so many other pieces and players. And again, that's not to say that he was not good during that stretch, but I do think that matters a little bit now that we've gotten to the point of his career where he's more of like a coin flip candidate that can go either way.

1:06:58Dave Helman: And then the other thing with him, it's similar to guys like Philip Rivers or Matt Ryan, I think is kind of in this tier. It actually, I think Matt Ryan has a better case because Matt Ryan won the MVP in 2016 and actually had a peak. Russell Wilson at no point to me felt like the best quarterback in the NFL, not even for a flash.

1:07:17Robert Mays: He never got an MVP vote, and people have brought that up a lot. I would push back on that a little bit, even if I'm not gung-ho about Russell Wilson's Hall of Fame candidacy. Perfect example, similar to what Dave was talking about with Fred Taylor. Russell Wilson's best season was 2019. I thought you could say 2015. I think 2015 is, you can make an argument. I think the best, in my opinion, the best stretch of Russell Wilson's career is arguably what he did in the back half of the 2015 season. When they really, like, they were just sitting back there in the gun and letting him go to work. And I know that we have an idea of what the Russell Wilson offense is, where it's just a lot of shots down the sideline, pushing the ball outside of the numbers.

1:07:57Robert Mays: You go back and you watch that back half of the 2015 season. He was playing really, really well. Like, the best I had ever seen him play to that point. I think you can make an argument for that stretch. And I think you can make an argument for 2019. The reason he didn't get a MVP vote in 2019, despite playing at arguably an MVP level, is that Lamar was a unanimous MVP in 2019. So he probably deserved MVP votes that year. And then in 2015, he probably deserved MVP votes for how well he played. And that was the year where Cam ran away with the MVP. And so I do think the, well, he never got an MVP vote.

1:08:29Robert Mays: That's why he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. there are ways you can easily trace why that happened, even though I'm not sure it's a good enough argument for why he should be it.

1:08:38Derrik Klassen: I think at the end of the two things come to mind, which like from 2017, maybe 2018, but like back half of the 20 teens, I just kept expecting this to be the year that he did get over that hump and do something like win MVP. And a thing that happens all the time, and I try to guard against it now, is you're just like, well, he's 29, 30, 31 years old. Like, he's got plenty of time to do this. And obviously, and not surprisingly for somebody like Russell Wilson because of how his athleticism played into his game. But the cliff just came quicker for him than it does for a lot of guys at quarterbacks.

1:09:16Derrik Klassen: So in 2019, I was like, oh, he's going to have six to eight more seasons like this, and it's going to be undeniable. And obviously, that's not what happened. And so when you consider the lack of accolades with how quickly his play dropped off after 2019, 2020, no, I don't see it. And I do agree overall, it's not completely his fault, but he was playing in an era with Brady and he overlapped slightly with Manning, like a couple of Manning's big time Denver seasons. Then there's Breeze, then there's Aaron Rodgers. And I mean, that doesn't even factor in Philip Rivers. and so eventually yeah you just get to a point where phenomenal player i i think he would have had to keep it up without tailing off the way he did to be a hall of famer i think that's probably

1:10:04Robert Mays: right i was going back and reading something barnwell wrote when he was barnwell does this a lot where it's like who are them who are the hall of famers on every single team and he was doing an analysis like an audit of that i think it was 2018 or 2019 or 2020 and similar sort of thought it was like russell wilson if he does this for five or six more years playing because by 2020 like the 2017 through 2020 stretch for Russell Wilson, he was playing well. The cliff did not seem like it was going to come that quickly. And so I think in that moment, it was pretty easy to say, well, if he does this for five more years, yeah, he'll get in.

1:10:34Robert Mays: And then it stopped immediately. It wasn't like he had a couple mediocre seasons. It was really bad really fast. And so I do think that part of it is when you look at the totality of his case, it harms it. part of it is that right now I think that we have a very very sour taste in our mouths about what

1:10:53Derrik Klassen: the end of the Russell Wilson experience looked like and I think maybe that'll mellow over time but just as the full totality of his career comes into focus I think it's it's understandable if you look at it and you're like eh not quite enough but it is it's so wild to think it feels like it never happened but the the hype and expectation on him in Denver heading into that 2022 season was unreal.

1:11:19Robert Mays: They even made market-setting contract after trading multiple first-round picks away for him, and he never played well again. There are some statistical cases that I think you could make just playing devil's advocate. I do think that there are some really impressive numbers that jump out to you. So from 2013 to 2020, he was sixth in total dropback GPA. The only guys who were ahead of him were Breeze, Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Brady, and Rivers. If you look at just total like big plays and first downs. So he combined rush and pass for 2065 first downs between 2012 and 2020. The only guys who were ahead of him were Brady and Matt Ryan.

1:12:01Robert Mays: He had a combined rush pass and scramble EPA of 1316. That's behind only Brady and Matt Ryan and Rogers and just behind them. And that's right in line with Breeze. So just in terms of like total value created with his legs and his arm. He was right there with all of those guys. Plays of 20 plus yards, if you combine rush and pass, the only player with more during that stretch is Tom Brady. Like the, and they were the most explosive offense in the league during that entire era. That entire eight year era, the Seahawks were the most explosive offense in the league. The problem is when you start including the negative plays, that's when it really does hurt his case.

1:12:39Robert Mays: Like no one in the league lost more value on sacks during that time than Russell Wilson. and it wasn't really close. And some of that obviously is the quality of the offensive line, but some of that, Derek, is absolutely just the way that Russell Wilson played.

1:12:53Dave Helman: Yeah, he was just like that. Russell was such a funny player in that I think on a play-to-play basis had some of the widest swings I've ever seen for a player, but on a game-to-game basis, you knew exactly what you were going to get. Like in the totality at the end of the game, it was going to be pretty good, but he might completely ruin a drive for you at a given time, or he might do some crazy thing, wheel out of a sack on third down and chuck a 70-yard bomb and it's a touchdown. Like he was pretty unique in that way. And I think if there's anything pushing in his factor, it is the uniqueness, like him kind of being what he was, especially at 5 '10", like doing some of the creativity stuff, being as explosive as he was.

1:13:29Dave Helman: I think that that goes a long way. I think part of my other pushback is like, quarterback is kind of the one position where longevity to me almost is a necessity. Like I think playing until you're like 36, 37 to be a true hall of fame level quarterback I actually do think matters a lot and I does I do think it hurts his case that he once he turned like 32 it kind of just like shut off and he was never able to play like quality football again because even the guys like Matt Ryan still played really well until his last season in Atlanta obviously the team was terrible but he was playing at a high level Philip Rivers was still pretty damn good into his later in career obviously Tom Brady Drew Brees doing what those guys did later into their careers like I do think playing until you're nearly 40 actually does matter at quarterback.

1:14:14Robert Mays: I think that there are guys, and I agree with you, and there are guys that, like in 2021, when the Rams won the Super Bowl, and people were like, Matthew Stafford's a Hall of Famer, I was like, what? What are we doing? At that point, he had not earned it. At that point, he wasn't. Now? I was going to say, how do you feel? Now it becomes a really interesting argument, but it's exactly what Derek is saying. If you aren't one of those guys where you were first or second team All-Pro three to five times by the time you hit 32. Like Mahomes would be a Hall of Famer today. Right, because the peak was just like unlike anything else.

1:14:50Robert Mays: Lamar would be a Hall of Famer today, in my opinion. But unless you had that sort of peak, you need that back half of your career in order to really bolster your case. I think that Matthew Stafford has done that. Russell Wilson never did that. And so when you're going to be in that tier of guys where you were never at the tippy-tippy top, what happens in that back nine becomes overly important and russell wilson never had that

1:15:14Derrik Klassen: back nine and that's the 2020 season i vividly remember thinking you know he he was just i mean he put up 4 000 yards he was just chucking it all over the yard and i remember thinking he's gonna do this for like at least six more years and that was basically the end

1:15:32Robert Mays: some of the numbers i mean again like the positive plays he had 224 first downs with his legs between 2013 and 2020. Cam had 311. By the way, Lamar had 173. That's two and a half seasons. Believable player. Two and a half seasons. He had 173. But you look at a lot of those Cam first downs, though, were sneaks. They were short yardage plays. You look at it from 2013 to 2020, Cam had 124 rushes of 10 plus yards. Russ had 165. Wow. I mean, the amount of positive plays, And I found it. So plays of 20 plus yards run and pass between 2013 and 2020. Brady had 533. Russ had 525. Wow. So they were one and two.

1:16:18Robert Mays: Like he was an incredibly explosive player. But I do think that some of the limitations, some of the negative plays absolutely are worth mentioning. The other number I threw out, last one, in terms of what was being asked of him. During that stretch from his rookie year through 2020 when it all kind of fell apart, 47.3 % rush rate for the Seahawks. highest in the league by about a percentage and a half. No other team was above 46%. So again, they're winning a lot. He has a Super Bowl. What was his role in all of this? And I think we always wanted it to be the Russell at Cook. Obviously, the Russell at Cook, 5-4-3.

1:16:58Robert Mays: Obviously, the let Russ Cook movement was like a thing on the internet. And I think that we kind of found out there was a reason that never happened, right? Like they wanted to play a certain way because completely giving the game over to him came with some downsides. And I think we saw some of those downsides as we got a little bit deeper in his career.

1:17:16Derrik Klassen: I think I know the answer to this, but does it change your opinion at all if Ricardo Lockett catches the slant and they have back-to-back championships?

1:17:30Robert Mays: It probably affects other people's opinion more than mine.

1:17:33Derrik Klassen: I didn't think it would sway you, but I think it would sway a lot of people if the Seahawks were a back-to-back team.

1:17:41Dave Helman: If they had won it back-to-back, again, I don't know if that changes my view of Russell Wilson, but I think it makes it easier to, like, palette that, like, yes, a two-time back-to-back Super Bowl winner who did have some of the peaks that he had, I could see why that would be an easier case to say yes.

1:17:56Robert Mays: I'm sorry for dropping that on you guys, Bill.

1:17:57Derrik Klassen: If we were going to do it,

1:17:58Robert Mays: we never had a Russell Wilson conversation, so I think it was time.

1:18:01Derrik Klassen: Five minutes of Hall of Fame arguing on a Monday in July. Why not? That's why we're here.

1:18:06Robert Mays: All right. That is all we've got for today. We will be back tomorrow with some more lingering questions. Very much looking forward to that. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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