Drafting the best defenses in the NFL

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2:06Robert Mays: We are drafting some defenses today. Instead of just doing a top 10 list of defenses, we thought this would just be a more fun way to do it. We'll get into the specifics of the rules as I go through the intro with Dave and Derek, but pretty simple. That's what we're doing today. We are drafting me, Dave, and Derek, the top 15 defenses in football for 2026. Let's get to that discussion with the three of us right now.

2:39Robert Mays: We're doing something a little bit different today with our best defenses ranking concepts compared to what we have done in previous years. We've done, as all NFL podcasts have done, between June and July, every single offseason, we used to rank or pick the top 10 defenses and offenses heading into the season. For multiple reasons, I wanted to change it up a little bit. I think this is a more fun way to do it. It's a more streamlined way to do it. And it adds some actual stakes to an exercise like this in a way that I'm really looking forward to.

3:09Derrik Klassen: Who doesn't love a draft? Yes. It brings out the best arguments, as we've been finding out this summer. And there are long-term stakes. Is there something at stake at the end of the year? Like the wind pool.

3:19Robert Mays: So we're new this for offense and defense. I don't think we should do anything as drastic as the wind pool. We'll all be in Chicago for the Superbowl or for the playoffs. And then we'll obviously all be in LA for the Superbowl. I think dinner. Yeah. Loser for each of these buys dinner twice during the playoffs. I think is the move. How nice of a dinner. Okay. We're good. We're not. I think we can be respectful of everyone's situation while also making that person pay for losing.

3:48Dave Helman: Demi, Scott, and Katie get to get in on the dinner? No.

3:51Robert Mays: I mean, you can come, but we're not paying for you. That's like a$700 dinner. Like, I'm not going to ask. I'm just assuming Derek is losing in this scenario because he lost the windspool. What the hell? I'm not going to ask Derek to pick up like an$800 meal for you guys. You're not a part of this. for the three of us.

4:09Derrik Klassen: I'm really excited about this show, but I resent the position that you're putting us in because you're fresh off of touring half the camps in the league.

4:17Robert Mays: No, no, no. You're looking at it the wrong way. There's too much going on up here. You're thinking too much. To overthink in this scenario now is just extraordinary.

4:25Derrik Klassen: I appreciate that because I'm just imagining you with this glint in your eye about all of the end of the roster guys

4:32Robert Mays: to be excited about. Absolutely not. No, that is not how I'm feeling whatsoever. You guys being removed from it probably gives you more clarity about how you rank these teams than I did. One little rule-based thing, just because there are stakes associated with this and because we typically don't do snake drafts to make it more exciting, we're going to swap the order after the third round. So, Dave, you will make the last pick of the third round as pick number three and the first pick of the fourth round, and the fourth and fifth rounds will just reverse the order. So it'll be you, me, Derek, you, me, Derek.

5:04Robert Mays: So just a heads up, trying to make it as fair as possible while also not having a bunch of two picks in a row because that ruins half the fun.

5:11Derrik Klassen: Yeah, it's just nerdy enough to make it more interesting without getting bogged down in the details. Exactly.

5:16Robert Mays: So we did one of the 100-yard dashes, digital 100-yard dashes to set the order yesterday. I wish we had recorded the digital 100-yard dash. I don't know if you guys have ever done those to figure out an order or do like a randomizer. Typically, it's pretty entertaining the whole way through in the sense that they're all pretty even for most of it. Derek just sprinted the 100 yards in like two seconds to win and get the first pick in this draft. So Derek would be the first.

5:42Dave Helman: It looked like I literally the first like 70 yards, you snapped your finger and it was just gone. And I was like, all right, I guess I get the first pick.

5:50Robert Mays: I've done plenty of those in order to figure out draft orders over the 15 years I've been doing content. That is the funniest one that I've seen or the weirdest one that I've seen.

5:57Derrik Klassen: Derek sprinted to the end and my guy walked the whole length of the field, which may be an accurate representation of what a race between the three of us would look like.

6:05Robert Mays: I don't know. That part of it I did actually enjoy. The fact that it might be a real-life representation of things. But Derek landed with the first overall pick. So lay it on us, Derek. Oh, by the way, this is EPA per play. That's the only other housekeeping the United Night address. Where these teams finish in EPA per play is how we will be making our picks and how we will make the final determination at the end of the season. And it's combined. Your five teams combined. Yes, combined. It's through the winner and loser. Yes. So, yeah, obviously you're there 15 matters here and it could potentially weigh you down.

6:33Robert Mays: So that's that's all the housekeeping stuff, right? We have all that out of the way. OK, Derek, you are free to make the first pick. I don't think there's a lot of mystery here about how much time is going to pick. There might be other people for Derek. I do not think there's going to be a lot of mystery here.

6:46Dave Helman: No, I'm sprinting to the Houston Texans. I mean, they are the best defensive roster in football. They are the most complete defensive roster in football. They were arguably the best defense in the league last year and didn't really lose anyone like Derek Barnett is not on the roster now, but they signed Jadavian Clowney to replace him and also signed Reed Blankenship at safety, who I think is a good player. And if there was maybe any weak point at what the Texans defense was last year, it was a little bit that maybe safety wasn't perfect. Now that they add him, I'm just like, they've got plus starters at basically every position and at a handful of positions like Will Anderson and Derek Stingley, you can argue that they're the best or second best player at their entire position.

7:24Robert Mays: Yeah, I think this is the easy pick. I overwhelmingly I mean there are a couple other there are a couple other options but I would like to give some respect to the team that I'm going to pick second based on what happened last year

7:35Derrik Klassen: but I think for a lot of the reasons Derek said the fact that there are three or four teams worth mentioning here and we don't have to because we're doing a draft but there are three or four teams worth mentioning here but I don't know man the Texans is just not it's not hard to make the case and it is hard to argue against it there are other teams that finished at the top of the league

7:54Robert Mays: in defense last year that have some turnover where there are question marks right you're relying on all right this is an unknown in terms of how we're going to be able to replace this player the guys that derrick the texans lost this offseason derrick mentioned derrick barnett tim settle was a rotational defensive lineman for this team last year like those are the types of guys we're talking about and you could easily make the argument that a combination of jadevi and clowny and the second half of the season version of caden mcdonald is an upgrade most likely over the players that the Texans lost this offseason did we mention Reed Blankenship too

8:25Derrik Klassen: like throw him into the mix I there's just there's not a lot in the way of weakness when you look at

8:30Robert Mays: the two deep here some of the numbers I wanted to throw out I was trying to find that I'm glad you

8:37Dave Helman: brought numbers because with the Texans I didn't even I was like they were so easily my pick that

8:41Robert Mays: I just didn't even do research so the number that I landed on that I thought was the just like so telling about where this team was last year they have they allowed negative 0.25 epa per drop back on early downs so theoretically in the situations where it should be hardest to defend the pass because we have 50 50 plays on on the board the texans allowed negative 0.25 epa per drop back on early downs that was wedged between if you look at quarterback efficiency from last year it's about what Brady Cook was in his snaps for the Jets.

9:15Dave Helman: I was going to say, I don't even think that like Cam Ward's numbers were that bad or like JJ McCarthy. That is like quarterback who does not deserve to be on the field level bad. You'd be able to play.

9:25Robert Mays: Yeah, I mean, it's everything you want. They were really good at last year. And what I appreciate about them is it's just the simplest defense in the league. It's the simplest good defense in the league where you kind of know what they're doing and it just doesn't really matter. they figured out a lot of ways to kind of refine some of the areas where they might even have weaknesses like in talking to people there they've done a really good job of kind of tweaking some of the responsibilities for like jaylen petrie and certain match coverages because when you have him at the nickel teams can try to isolate him in man coverage situations or man-like situations and they've built in mechanisms in order to kind of lessen the impact of stuff like that like that's the cool part about this defense is that because it is so relatively simple they all they spend their time doing is figuring out how to cover up for those weaknesses it's kind of the argument for being really simple on defense is that if you are doing the same things over and over and over again it streamlines what other teams are going to do to you so it limits the amount of things you have to account for and i think they've been really really good at figuring that out combined with the fact that they have all the best players.

10:31Dave Helman: Yeah, like when you simplify what you do on defense, sure, the other team knows what they're getting, but you end up in less spots where it's like, oh, we called this defense and we got got by the other play. It's like, no, like, you know all the rules to what you're playing. Whereas like the Broncos, I think are an excellent defense, but because they're a little bit more Rolodex, sometimes you just get caught in the wrong play and somebody throws a bomb on you. And that just doesn't really happen to the Texans because of the way they do it. And the last thing I would say too, in terms of like covering up the weaknesses, if there was like any structural thing I looked at with the Texans defense last year I went back and actually watched a lot of their first intends for a little study I was doing it when they rolled down the safety to play like the weak B and C gap in the run game that guy could get moved a little bit but if it's Reed Blankenship now part of what he was so good at in Philly was filling that spot and so it's like them being so aware of like what is the last issue that we had in this defense they just it's it's a testament to how they understand things over there I also I think that's a really

11:26Robert Mays: good thing to bring up because that did come up when I was down there that I feel like they can fire the safeties and like run blitz looks a little bit more than they had previously and the read blanket ship wants to do some of that stuff I do think they're going to be layers to what they do this year that this didn't exist last year I do think there's going to be a little bit more dime because Jalen Smith who was their third round pick from last season he played four games last year and so he's coming into this season healthy and so if you can move Kamari Laster inside and some of those dime looks and put Petrie at linebacker that's just another layer you can kind of fold on top of everything else they're doing on third down.

11:58Robert Mays: And I think, again, the defensive line depth, there's a lot of turnover there, but you could easily make the argument that by the end of this season, Caden McDonald can be the most impactful interior defensive lineman that this team has had in the D 'Amico Ryans era, which is just a terrifying cherry on top to everything else this team is. All right, I have the second pick. I'm not overthinking this. I'm going with Seattle Seahawks.

12:21Derrik Klassen: Hell yeah. Correct.

12:22Robert Mays: Put some respect on Mike McDonald's name.

12:25Derrik Klassen: Yeah, I mean, this is going to sound like shade toward the personnel because the personnel is still very good, but they lost enough player-wise where you could talk yourself into second-guessing it, and that's where Mike McDonald comes in.

12:39Robert Mays: I'd say yes and no. I think that, yeah, losing Tariq Wohan, we talked about this yesterday and we were talking about the other outside corner and whoever it's going to be for this team and the pressure on that player because of what they want to do with Devin Witherspoon. If I'm being honest, if I'm looking at the Seahawks right now and my concerns for what they're going to be on defense over the course of the year, the fact that Nicky Manwari is worried about scooting around practice early in training camp and we might not see him for a little while, it might be more concerning to me than the idea of swapping out some combination of Ty Okada and Bud Clark for Kobe Bryant.

13:14Robert Mays: because the back end of this defense, I think, was more hurt last year than people remember. If you look at it, Okada played 739 snaps. I saw the same thing when I was doing this.

13:24Derrik Klassen: For the Seahawks last year. I would have guessed it was a big number, but 750 surprised me.

13:29Robert Mays: 750 snaps for Okada last year. That was in place of Julian Love mostly, not of Kobe Bryant. And so maybe that's a consideration where, okay, now if Okada plays there next to Julian Love, Do you have the same amount of range that a guy like Kobe Bryant gave you or the safety is a little bit more boxed in? You could try to kind of or you can maybe go down that road a little bit. I'm just not that worried about it. And I think part of the reason, Derek, is because even if some of the back end stuff is changing, in my opinion, the secret sauce and what makes this thing go is what's happening up front.

14:04Robert Mays: We're the only guy you really lost is boy, Mafé. And the guys who really make this go in the most important way, like the engine of how the Seahawks play, they allowed a 34.5 % rushing success rate out of two high structures last year. 34.5%. I don't know exactly what the league average was on those, but it was significantly higher than that. That was the best mark in the league. They had more than two touchdowns worth of total EPA better by opposing offenses on those two high structure runs than the next best team in the league. Two touchdowns over the course of the year. when you can play like that against the run out of those boxes it just allows you to do everything else and I don't anticipate that being any harder for them this year than it was last year because

14:47Dave Helman: all those guys are coming back yeah that's not what mafe gave you even if he's gone and they you know they honestly like mafe is a good player but they also signed Dante Fowler you could probably get like 85 percent of what you were getting from boy a mafe as a pass rusher from Fowler, especially if he's like a deep rotational player for you. So on that front, I'm not worried. I would say like all the losses that they've had, all that moves me off of is like that just made me picking the Texans easier. But as far as like them, they I still I still think that there are four or five defenses that by the end of the year might be the best in the league.

15:20Dave Helman: I'm not any less convinced that the Seahawks are one of those teams, obviously.

15:24Robert Mays: I'm with you on that. That's exactly how I was thinking about it. If I had the number one pick, I would have picked the Texans because of that exact reason where I just have fewer questions about some of the turnover, but the Seahawks were still a pretty easy number two pick for me. I'll say this, Derek, I get where you're coming from about teams that have a chance to be the best defense in the league. I don't know exactly where I sat with it on like August 12th of last year, but I think I thought there were more candidates for that last year than I think there are right now. For best defense in the league.

15:52Robert Mays: I had a harder tier break after like four teams in this exercise than I might've had last year. I think that 10 was a little bit bigger.

15:58Derrik Klassen: Four sounds right to me. Like there are four teams that I. I don't want to show my hand. No, for sure. But I'd say there are four that I love on a deeper level than everybody else.

16:07Robert Mays: I think that's kind of where I sit as well. Where the top four, I was like, all right, I think you can make an argument for any of these. After that, even if there are defenses that have been really good. It's just the little tiny things that gave me a little bit more pause than the top four. I honestly, I don't think that that's like, you know, teams six through 10 are necessarily

16:23Dave Helman: worse going into this year than they were last year. I just think that that top group has really crystallized. Like it's pretty obvious who the elite defenses are now, I think.

16:33Robert Mays: I think some of those teams that are like five through seven for me, really just like five and six were the only, when we get into it, the teams that are five and six to me probably would have been in that conversation last year. I think it's mostly just that when I look at the top four, the Texans, Eagles, and Rams all got better. And the, I said all the teams, but it's, I think the top, for all personnel wise got better than except for seattle but with seattle it's like i'm giving them the benefit of the doubt like yeah if i'm right well if they drop a little bit they're still on par with those teams probably exactly i think even if they get a little bit worse even if the personnel gets a little bit worse i think they still have a really good chance to be the best

17:12Derrik Klassen: defense in the league when it's all said and done there are enough there are enough things with seattle where i was a little more conflicted you made my choice for me though thank you I mean, Seattle's a perfectly reasonable and good pick at number two. We talked about the stuff in the secondary. I did. If I'm looking and you're poking holes when you're drafting teams this highly, like if I'm trying to poke holes, one of my favorite players of the last decade, Demarcus Lawrence is 34, has had plenty of injury issues over the course of his career. It's an under-the-radar win for Seattle that he was as healthy as he was last year and obviously was so productive.

17:49Derrik Klassen: Can you get that again? Fowler's 32. Fowler, what are you going to get out of Fowler?

17:53Robert Mays: The edge depth is definitely older.

17:54Derrik Klassen: It could look worse by two-thirds of the way through the season than it does right now, but I think the Seahawks deserve the benefit of the doubt, absolutely. So I'm cool with that, and then it makes my pick at number three really easy because I was torn between the Seahawks and Rams for two overall. And I don't really, I don't know how much we have to say. They were fourth in defensive DVOA last year, and they added Trent McDuffie and Jalen Watson to their secondary. And that would have been enough to have you really excited. And then you've swapped out Jared verse for the best player in football.

18:28Derrik Klassen: And by the way, Aaron Donald could still sign up before the season starts. So I didn't have to think that hard about it.

18:35Robert Mays: Per next gen, they had the highest pressure rate in the league last year when rushing for. Yeah. And they traded for miles.

18:42Derrik Klassen: they had the second best pressure rate in the league, just period. Like they were over 40 % last year. And okay. I actually, I don't want to tip my hand. So I'm going to, I'm going to swallow the words I was about to say, but I mean, they are so deep on the defensive line. I've said this many times over the course of the off season. The secondary was not as bad as you remember because of the playoffs. They were bad in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong.

19:07Robert Mays: But it's a, perfect example where it's a secondary that when you're doing all of this big picture like 17 game over the course of the season you can hold up when you start to isolate in playoff game plans and it's like we're just going to circle this guy for 60 straight minutes that's where that type of secondary shows up and i think the rams are a really good example of that it's wild that they

19:30Derrik Klassen: were top 10 in epa for epa per drop back against the pass in the regular season and just got worked in all of their playoff games. And so I think Trent McDuffie and Jalen Watson will go a long way toward fixing that. They've got like four safeties you feel good about. Multiplicity on the back end, flexibility on the back end is wild now. My only concern is depth, but like there just aren't very many teams where depth isn't a concern.

19:55Robert Mays: Where's your depth concern?

19:56Derrik Klassen: I mean, you're one snap away from needing Emmanuel Forbes to play significant role.

20:00Robert Mays: Last year. I mean, like we just said that,

20:02Derrik Klassen: that was like, it's good enough up to a point, but can be a problem eventually.

20:06Robert Mays: Oh, yeah, but it'll be a problem eventually. But I think the fact that we're talking about a defense that over the course of the season last year was top five with that guy, you can survive with him. And I just think that they're in a much better spot depth-wise than they were a year ago. Of course they are.

20:21Derrik Klassen: Of course they are. But if Emmanuel Forbes needs to play meaningful snaps here, and again, who the Rams are and where they sit heading into this season informs all of my opinions about them. But Emmanuel Forbes could conceivably be the difference between like winning the Super Bowl and a disappointing season, which is any other result. So maybe that's me being a little too chicken little. But if I was looking for something to be concerned about, it would be that depth, even more so than stuff like the linebackers. Like I'm totally at peace with the linebackers. I would love to see like one more cornerback in that room or one more cornerback that I feel better about.

21:02Derrik Klassen: That's just gluttonous. Of course it is. Of course. That's what the Rams are, baby. Come on. No. And like, who was, who would you be shocked if the Rams were like, you know, you think we need one more? Like, of course they would do that. But all of that said, they were awesome last year. They, I mean, it's just an embarrassment of riches. I might've taken them to overall. If I had the, if I had that pick, I don't know. We'll never know.

21:26Dave Helman: but I certainly might have done the same thing. I don't think that that's what you're doing.

21:31Robert Mays: I understand that. I just am at a point now where McDonald is the defensive version of those mainstay offensive guys where I'm just like, he'll make it work. Like he's just going to make it work. I just have so much inherent faith in what he's done over the last few years. He's the best defensive play caller in football, period. Like, and I don't even think that's a conversation when you think about the situational stuff, but structurally the Rams are in such a good spot. And again, getting back to the back end, think about what they can do in those dime looks now where you can move Trent McDuffie inside and those are the situations where Emmanuel Forbes is going to have to play yeah but when it's third and eight I think one of the biggest concerns they had when they rebuilt the secondary it's overall cornerback quality yes but when they looked at a team like Seattle and the physicality that Seattle had at corner I think that's what they were envious of you can put Emmanuel Forbes out there in third and eight because that matters less you're not worried about teams running on the perimeter in those situations and so just the sheer amount of options they have back there they led the league in dime snaps last year I assume they will do that again because of the current personnel that they have the fact that they go as deep as they do on the defensive line like Tyler Davis is a useful player but they just have so many guys to cycle through there and that's before we even get to a world where Aaron Donald is back here I was gonna say I feel sorry for

22:49Derrik Klassen: whoever on the defensive line isn't going to get a jersey on game day because Donald's going to be up and Donald might only play 25 snaps a game, but that's worth it. Sorry. I don't think that's going to happen. You don't think he would be there only to play like a bit role? Yes. Okay. Oh, no, we'll have Aaron Donald playing. No, Aaron Donald.

23:10Robert Mays: That is because that was one of the biggest things I wanted to know when I was there. It was like, what has been the conversation about why he wants to do this and what the conditions would be with him coming back. And I think they floated the idea to him of like, well, you could just be one of the five guys. And he essentially stared through their souls after they said that to him. And so I don't anticipate him coming back to be some bit rotational player. I think if he's going to come back, he thinks he can be Aaron Donald.

23:39Derrik Klassen: Okay. So having, having Kobe Turner as the freshest substitute in the league.

23:44Robert Mays: Brayden Fisk is going to play 25 snaps a game. Brayden Fisk is just like some situational fastball pitcher now. Sorry, Brayden. Sorry, Kobe. All right, before we get to the second round, let's take our first quick break.

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27:37Robert Mays: all right buddy you're up again Derek you have the first pick in the second round who you taking

27:42Dave Helman: fourth overall yeah I had a tier of the two teams we just talked about Seattle Seahawks and the Rams and then in that tier I also had my pick the Philadelphia Eagles yeah I was really I was

27:54Robert Mays: really hoping that you'd get coaxed by like the Broncos or the Vikings or another team I was really hoping I could get the Eagles at five.

28:01Dave Helman: I mean, all teams that are up near there for me, I think with the Eagles, it's just that I think you look at the cornerback room and there's a chance that those three guys with Cooper DeGene, Quinone Mitchell, and Rick Wallen, that that's the best trio in the NFL. And there's obviously some other good ones, but I just think that there's a chance that those guys are truly special. I still think that the front is obviously going to be really good. If Jalen Carter is a little bit healthier, I think Renard's obviously still got a lot going on. Jihad Campbell, I thought, played really well. And so he's obviously replacing a guy who played there a while in the Kobe Dean.

28:31But I think Campbell can really be an X factor if he,

28:35Dave Helman: I think, steps into his own this year. And the other thing that I would say, two things. One, obviously, we know Fangio is great. We also know that he has the gas to call the best defense in the league. I think we all believe that he can absolutely do that. And the Eagles defense was as good as it was last year with the offense being not good at all and putting them in a lot of bad situations the Eagles offense went three and out at the second or at the fifth highest rate in the league so the Eagles defense was constantly in bad spots and it still didn't matter because of the way that they were calling it and how good those players are and they've only I think gotten better talent wise this year so this is just a team where if there are four or five defenses I think could be number one in epa per play or dboa whatever at the end of the season it's vic

29:22Robert Mays: fangio's equals yeah you could easily make an argument to me to have them at two i think that they're that kind of team i when i was there last week and i think there's a sentiment with this defensive system and just you know whatever defensive systems overall when you get to year three with really the same core group of players you get to a point where it's at the peak level of like the evolution necessary within that lifespan of the defense where you know where all the weaknesses are. You know what all the guys are capable of. The guys that have been there now in year three, like the Quinone Mitchells and the Cooper DeGenes, you've added enough stuff onto their plate where you feel like they're fully weaponized now.

30:02Robert Mays: And there's just not a lot of personal weaknesses. The Grenard thing, I guess, makes me a little bit worried. The fact that he's still not practicing after suffering the pec injury that he did this offseason. But it sounds like he's going to be back. Jalen's haunt has apparently looked incredible during training camp. And so now you go, and Nolan Smith didn't even really play for this team last year for a huge chunk of the season. So you have three edge rushers you feel good about. You're talking about Jalen Carter being better this year, Derek. Them signing him to that deal makes me feel good about physically where he's at.

30:32Robert Mays: Like that to me is the biggest possible signal that he's going to look physically different than he did a year ago. And the idea that now Tariq Wollin is just on the other side and now you can do different things with Quinion Mitchell than you would have been doing before. The only real point of concern is that second safety spot. And my God, if that's what we're sitting here fixating on in the first week of August about a team like with this level of talent everywhere else, it's not a bad place to be.

30:59Dave Helman: Well, and now if you have, they were already asking Quinone Mitchell to play a lot of one-on-one coverage last year. But if you have Quinone Mitchell who can do it, Cooper DeGene can do it, and now Rick Wallen can do it way better than, you know, Adoree Jackson or Keely Ringo or whoever last year. I kind of give a shit less about how good my safeties are. If I can just play a little bit more one-on-one coverage, and I know that these guys are going to lock stuff down, especially down the field.

31:20Derrik Klassen: Obviously, because of how good he is and because of how much money they paid him, you want Jonathan Grenard to be available sooner rather than later. But in addition to everything else you just said, I was doing the same thing as you looking through their depth chart, and I was like, Arnold Ebiketti and AJ Epinesa are like fallback options if that doesn't pan out. Like, that's a good spot to be in addition to all of the homegrown options that you have.

31:41Robert Mays: And they go three deep at defensive tackle too. The idea that when they're at nickel, Moro Jomo is just like some sub rusher. It's a pretty good place to be. It's an enviable position I think a lot of teams would like to be in.

31:51Derrik Klassen: I think this defense has the potential to be... I've said it before. They have the potential to be top three. Maybe best in the league if they catch the right breaks.

32:01Robert Mays: Oh, I think they have the potential to be the best Vic Fangio defense we've seen in Philadelphia including the Super Bowl year. Like, that's on the table for me.

32:10Dave Helman: I I think so, too, because and the other thing is like we're a little bit unclear on safety. You know, Makuba, I think it's still a little bit coming into his own. He's a little bit of a smaller player. And Marcus Epps is going to be taking over that other spot. It's been an elite Eagles defense before with Marcus Epps playing a lot of snaps for them. Like, it's not an ideal situation, but like, I think that they could do it.

32:28Robert Mays: Yeah, and he's just a couple of years older and it hasn't looked great since he left. But I think they're one of the reasons he has the inside track to win that job is just that he knows the system. He's reliable. if you're worried more about floor there than you are ceiling, which I completely understand considering the amount of talent you have everywhere else. Like we don't need to worry about being dynamic at our second safety spot. Let's put a guy back there that we don't think will make a ton of mistakes and we'll let the other guys be the playmakers. I think that's a good mindset to have and I think it's the one that they do.

32:55Robert Mays: All right. Well, this is a bummer because I think that is the tear break to me. I think there was those four teams and I drew a line. I mean, I'm not upset about the team I'm going to pick here considering they finished number one in drop back success rate and second and run defense success rate last year per Tremedia, I'm going to go with the Denver Broncos.

33:11Derrik Klassen: Yeah, don't overthink that. Yeah, they're really good, even if I agree that maybe there's a slight tear break.

33:17Robert Mays: I just think when you look at the personnel for this team compared to the top four teams we were looking at, even if the players are still the same, I do think that there are areas of relative weakness, mostly just in coverage. Like when you look at Stranod, Singleton, and the safeties for this team compared to what they look like on the teams that we just talked about, it's just a different caliber of player and it's a different caliber of coverage in the spine of the defense that's that'd be like one of my concerns and the other part is just less interior defensive line depth right like you lose john franklin myers uh tyler on yadam is that how you pronounce it on yadam who they drafted in the third round obviously that's a we need to backfill this but there's a reason john franklin myers made like 20 million dollars a year in free agency even at this stage of his career.

34:01Robert Mays: But that front and just what that front looks like and the pressure world they were living in last year was so incredibly creative. Like the ways that they were using the safeties as blitzers at points last year, I guess that's one of the other areas that if I did have a little bit of pause about a team that's been a top five defense over the last couple of years, I want to give Vance Joseph a ton of credit because he deserves it. This team was 30th in defensive DVOA in 2023. Jim Leonard comes before the 2024 season and they finished third in defensive BBOA the season after that. There's a whole host of reasons for that.

34:37Robert Mays: Personnel improvements, them playing more man coverage to lean into what Patrick Sertan was. Like, it's not just the Jim Leonard part of it, but I think I'm very curious to see what the pressure world for the Bills looks like compared to what the pressure world for the Broncos looks like with one team losing that guy and one team gaining that guy. so those are just like sort of the things in the back of my mind as to why there may be a half step down from the other teams Derek but I still feel okay getting the Broncos at five I mean if I had

35:04Dave Helman: the fifth pick that's who I was gonna take like I just and I love the way that they play defense if anything like Vic Fangio's Eagles defenses are great I like watching the Broncos more because I think it's just kind of some of the stuff that they do like they're a little bit more of a Rolodex team their pressures are weird they play a lot more man coverage like I really do enjoy it and I think like there there are pluses and minuses to the way that they play defense right like them being so aggressive and then being as much of a rolodex team I think because offenses don't always know what they're getting the Broncos are actually and I looked this up and I forget what the number is now but like especially on first and tens they don't give you a first down immediately on first and ten very much like it because teams are I think scared to push the ball it's just the one in 15 times that you kind of catch them in a weird coverage or you catch them in a weird blitz you're going to pop them for 40 but they're willing to live that way because it's like we know that we're going to keep you behind the sticks and we're going to make you grind this out and they're obviously the way that they get in the backfield is is incredible and so this is a team that is pretty much running it back with a lot of the same guys and I do think the Leonard of it all is a little bit interesting I also do think part of the reason they were so bad early on with Vance Joseph and then gotten better is because they're a team that just does so much stuff like I think when you're throwing that much stuff at the wall at a certain point it kind of just takes guys a little bit of buy-in, a little bit of making sure that you're in the right spot and all that stuff.

36:22Dave Helman: And then one player I did want to actually shout out before we move on from the Broncos at all or whatever, Ayoma Uazurike, one of their defensive linemen. If he takes a step, he's kind of about as good as John Franklin Myers is. I thought he actually had some really impressive flashes last year. So hopefully they can get a little bit more out of him to kind of replace JFM, who is still an excellent player.

36:42Derrik Klassen: It's not a pleasant storyline at all, but the main thing that gives me pause with the Broncos is just whatever the Jonathan Cooper situation is. A guy that was arrested twice during OTAs. It sounds like all of that is pending, but it's alleged domestic violence related issues. There's not a whole lot in the way of resolution yet. I think he's got a hearing on August 31st. Not making light of that at all, but you could potentially be without him, depending on how the league decides to handle that. And Nick Benito is an amazing player, but if Jonathan Cooper is not part of that, and again, I don't want to diminish why he might not be, but like, I don't love the edge depth behind Benito.

37:29Derrik Klassen: If you remove Jonathan Cooper from that,

37:31Robert Mays: from that Jonah Ellis can kind of be the next guy up there and like be like that one of the, the next like bendy speed rusher they have that can be an impactful player. But yeah, if they lose Jonathan Cooper, I think that's absolutely worth mentioning. Now we're down two of the guys who made that front, what it was over the last couple of seasons. But again, I think that there's a slight step down from this group compared to the top four, but this is where things landed. And so I'm okay with the Broncos here at five. Dave, you are up at number six. This is where it really sucks to be. And of course - I disagree.

38:01Robert Mays: I think there's one more team here before then it really changes, in my opinion.

38:05Derrik Klassen: You think there's one more team? I mean, I just, I think there's more, there's more wish casting with every other team after the ones that have gone off the board, in my opinion.

38:15Robert Mays: We'll talk about it. Who are you going with?

38:16Derrik Klassen: I don't know. I have a couple of options that I feel good about. But you know what? Like, I might regret this when I'm buying y 'all dinner in January, but I'm going to go with a team that I'm excited to talk about because they're not a very exciting team. And there are some defenses that deserve consideration here. A couple of them wear purple. but I'm actually, I'm going to draft the Cleveland Browns. Wow. Oh, okay.

38:49Robert Mays: Okay. I like this. I, I'm very curious. I was really interested in where they were going to go. They are in my top 15 for sure. Like I probably would have picked them if we got to the end of it. Say more. Why, why the Browns this high with some of the other teams that are on the board here?

39:05Derrik Klassen: So, okay. Obviously we'd talk about the Vikings. I think there's, I love Brian Flores. Whereas there's, like I said, wish casting, like you're hoping rookies can do a lot of heavy lifting for the Minnesota Vikings, the Baltimore Ravens. Jess, I know I'm giving teams away, but I don't think I need to tell you all that those teams might be pretty good on defense. Those are worth considerations. But again, like what's what's the Nnamdi Matabike situation? What's the deal with the cornerbacks? Marlon Humphrey has gotten injured since we've last talked, by the way. So what is the depth in the Baltimore secondary look like?

39:37Derrik Klassen: I could look really stupid for not taking Baltimore and that's fine, but God help me. I love an underdog and I'm, I'm very fascinated by the way that we just write the Browns defense off because miles Garrett is gone. And of course, of course that is a monstrous loss. He's the best defender in football. Jared verse is still a really good football player. Like he's an incredible football player.

40:03Robert Mays: Ruining practice yesterday. He was ruining practice yesterday when I was there. I didn't confirm this because I can talk before practice. I think they were taking him out on purpose. Because they couldn't get anything done? There were multiple plays where he made the play and then he came out as the rest of the first team defense stayed in there. And I think they're just like, we need to get stuff done. You're going to go stand on the sideline for a little bit.

40:27Derrik Klassen: So the thesis for my statement here is the Browns potentially have a game-changing presence at all three levels of their defense versus third in the league in pressures over his time in the NFL. He's eighth among edge players in pressure percentage. He's not Miles Garrett. He's awesome. Carson Swessinger, Derek, you want to take the floor on this?

40:48Dave Helman: He is extremely awesome. He is, listen, if I'm drafting linebackers and Fred Warner's gone, that might be who I'm taking.

40:54Derrik Klassen: Carson Swessinger showed all pro potential as a rookie. Not practicing right now.

40:58Robert Mays: Not practicing right now. I think it's precautionary, but he was not practicing when I was there.

41:02Derrik Klassen: Denzel Ward is still that dude. They just re-upped Grant Delpit. The front is still loaded with good players, by the way. Like it's year two for Mason Graham. Alex Wright is still there. Isaiah McGuire has shown you things. Malik Collins is on PUP. I need him healthy. I'm hoping he'll be healthy eventually, but you still have five to six really good football players on your front. Quincy Williams is in Cleveland now, which I think has flown under the radar, which maybe he's not the Quincy Williams from peak Robert Sala New York Jets. But what I think is interesting is his old linebackers coach from the New York Jets is his DC now.

41:41Derrik Klassen: Correct. Mike Rutenberg, which they love each other, by the way. I want to talk about I want to talk about Mike Rutenberg for a second, which I'll be I didn't know a whole lot before he took this job.

41:50Robert Mays: I didn't know him before yesterday. So were you?

41:53Derrik Klassen: You sound like you were impressed.

41:54Robert Mays: What I I want to hear what you have to say and then we can get into it.

41:57Derrik Klassen: Mike Rutenberg. I just, I love, I love the way connections and relationships work in the NFL and the network of everything. Mike Rutenberg, college coach for a long time, landed in Jacksonville under Gus Bradley a decade plus ago. Bradley was coming from Seattle. He brings over a QC to Jacksonville by the name of Robert Sala. Robert Sala and Mike Rutenberg worked together in Jacksonville for years. Sala goes to San Francisco where he's the DC. He brings Rutenberg with him for a year. Rutenberg follows him to the jets. When Sala's tenure with the jets blows up, he stays on under Jeff Ulbrich. He follows Jeff Ulbrich to Atlanta where he is the passing game coordinator for a Falcons defense that we all loved watching last year.

42:43Derrik Klassen: And when this season was over in Atlanta, he interviewed to be solid DC in Tennessee before solid shows who? Gus Bradley, who started this whole thing 12 years ago. And so when that doesn't work out for Rutenberg in Tennessee, Todd Monken hires him to be the D.C. in Cleveland. Everything I just said combined with the talent on the Browns roster, I was just like, I think I'm really into this. I think this could be really, really good. And really the biggest thing that gives me pause is the offense might not be any good, and that could put them in some terrible situations.

43:19Robert Mays: I think it's worth bringing up. and I think there's one more layer to it. He goes to the team that Kevin Stefanski just left. And the only reason that Kevin Stefanski lost him in Atlanta as the passing game coordinator is because Jim Schwartz didn't want to take the job as the Browns defensive coordinator. And so there's just so, so many, like there's a million different little things there. And what I think is really cool about this. So I, Mike Rutenberg, that man is a linebacker's coach. He's just a linebacker's coach through and through. The combination of him and Monken, I don't think that there is an offensive and defensive play caller combined in any building that has the collective energy that the Cleveland Browns are bringing to the table this year.

43:58Robert Mays: How that ultimately looks in terms of quality, I have no idea. But there is a vibe there with those two guys as the play callers on either side of the ball. And why I like this is that so up front, they carried over a ton of the defensive staff from last year. They have the same safeties coaches the past game coordinator. They stayed the same defensive line coach because what Ruttenberg, where he comes from, is that four down attack world going all the way back to it. The reason Kevin Stefanski hired Joe Woods when he got the job in 2019 was because of what the Niners did to them in the playoffs when he was with the Vikings.

44:33Robert Mays: So that four down attack front, Ruttenberg comes from that world. But you look at what the Falcons did last year in the next kind of evolution of that defensive system, Derek. and it just has nuances and layers of complexity that the Jim Schwartz defenses just didn't. So I think you could make a really solid argument that stylistically, you're still trying to get the same stuff and you're asking the same things at that defensive line. Mason Graham's a perfect example. Mason Graham, it took him a little while to get comfortable playing that way because it takes a lot of young linemen a little bit to really get accustomed to this system.

45:07Robert Mays: He finally does in the back half of the season. He changes his body a little bit. But now by bringing in that scheme and asking him to play the same way, you're building out what you got from him as a rookie while adding a ton of layers on the back end. The Browns last year were down to the bottom of the league and just the sheer amount of zone pressures that they ran over the course of the season. The Falcons were in the top three. And so they're just going to, it's going to be a little bit stylistic differences while also carrying over a lot of the things that made this defense really good, which I think is a cool combination.

45:37Dave Helman: Right, because when Schwartz pressures, it's man-free, baby. That's all we're getting back there. That's all we're playing. It's, you know, obviously they had the horses for it. And I still think because they have the horses to do that, it'll be a lot of that. But I do think it's what you're saying. We're like, it'll be more of a blend and it's a little bit more of keeping offenses on their toes. And I do still think that they've got the horses for it. Like, obviously, Devin Bush played pretty well at linebacker for them last year. If Quincy Williams is rejuvenated, he's a better player than that, I think.

46:03Dave Helman: And obviously, Jared Burse is still really good. And maybe this is me like buying narratives. I think that there's a chance that Jared Burst, you know, gets traded from what might be the best defense in the league. And he's like, that man, like I'm about to go absolutely insanely nuclear. And like, there is some of that.

46:17Derrik Klassen: I absolutely think there's coming out of Cleveland has, you know, leads you to believe Jared versus really like he's not sulking about not being on the Rams. He's like grabbing this by the horns and trying to be the heartbeat of this team, arguably, considering they don't have a settled quarterback right now.

46:38Robert Mays: I'm curious what happens at the nickel spot. It's like a combination of Miles Harden and Miles Bryant right now. I wonder if we get any Emmanuel McNeil Warren there over the course of the year. They're playing it pretty close to the vest in terms of what they want the plan for him to be. Zach Jackson told me yesterday he's been folding it a little bit with like the second and third team at nickel, but I didn't see any of that yesterday. So that's the one spot where I'd kind of be like, all right, what's going to happen there? But other than that, I feel pretty good about what this defense looks like from top to bottom.

47:09Robert Mays: And again, I think schematically, I'm really interested in what the Rutenberg version of this type of system looks like with these players.

47:14Derrik Klassen: One of y 'all is going to take Baltimore with the next two picks.

47:18Robert Mays: Yeah, I'm just surprised you took them so early. I thought I could get them at like 11 or 12 in the post-Smiles Garrett world.

47:24Derrik Klassen: I get excited about things And I'd like I'd rather have the thing I'm excited about, even if there was a couple of options that I could have had instead. But like, you don't need me to tell you that Brian Flores is going to have a nasty defense. But it's more exciting to talk about the Browns right now, in my opinion. And I'll feel stupid about that in December when I'm, you know, making sure I got enough money in my bank account to take you all to dinner. But it's fine.

47:47Robert Mays: All right, let's take one more quick break. And I'm very curious where Derek is going to go here with the first pick of the third round.

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50:03Hi, buddy.

50:04Robert Mays: You got some options here now based on what Dave just did. A shocking pick, but an exciting one. I really I really did enjoy that I'm trying to figure out if I want to do my shocking pick or

50:15Dave Helman: pick a team that was like up kind of in the strange oh live a little come on yeah I think

50:20Derrik Klassen: I'm gonna do it this actually this is where before you say anything he just wants you to leave as many like safe picks as possible for him that's not true I will say I will say I think my quote

50:31Dave Helman: safe pick they did it last year but the reason I might not be picking them is I have a little bit of reservations about how real that's going to be this year I'm going to go with the team that I thought Dave was talking about when he said this team is not all that exciting. I'm going to pick the Pittsburgh Steelers.

50:45Robert Mays: Nice. They were high on my list of considerations too. Another team I thought and hoped I could get a little bit later. I like this though.

50:53Dave Helman: I'm like, I buy Patrick Graham, man. Patrick Graham's defenses have always been better than the roster would suggest that that defense should be. And that usually has meant taking the 22nd roster and making them a league average defense or a little bit above.

51:09Robert Mays: The 22nd, I think, is generous.

51:11Dave Helman: Probably generous, especially with last year's Raiders. Like, that back seven last year was tough. But they're moving now to a Steelers team that, like, last year was imperfect, especially at the start. But by the end of last year, this Steelers defense was a top 10 defense, which I was wrong about. I thought that they, it seemed like they just did not have it together early in the season. I was questioning some of the personnel decisions, but they really turned it on. And I really believed in Patrick Graham. And so I think they've got a corner duo that if, you know, I know Joey, Joey Porter Jr.

51:40Dave Helman: is a little bit unhealthy right now, but him and Jamel Dean are like a really good, just press coverage, get in your face, cornerback duo. Jalen Ramsey, if he's playing the nickel, I think can obviously do that as well. Brisker, if he remains healthy, like he really did start to come on last year. I think that that can help them at that spot. And then the front, like the combination of Derek Harmon taking a step, Cam Hayward still somehow has it, even though he's as old as he is. Keanu Benton is still explosive. TJ Watt, like Yaya Black played okay for them. Nick Herbig, they just paid a billion dollars.

52:08Dave Helman: Alex Highsmith is still good. Like this team has talent at most, you know, linebacker, I'm still a little bit questionable, but this team has talent. And I trust Patrick Graham, like maybe seven's a little high, but top 10, I would have taken them for sure.

52:22Robert Mays: I don't think that's crazy at all. I mean, I think that the only pushback is going to be, I think from Vikings fans are starting a little bit pissed off right now based on how the last couple of years went. We'll talk about the Vikings in a minute. That's the only team that I think based on how the last couple of seasons went, it's surprising that they're still available. Like all the other teams in that next tier, I'm not going to give away all the teams I have listed here, but all the other ones we're going to talk about beyond this, I think you could make an argument that the Steelers belong in the same conversation with them.

52:50Robert Mays: And I'm with you, Derek, like looking at it, this is EPA per play, right? Then this is the, cause I was ready to take the Steelers. So I had my notes last three years, not, not at seven, but I was ready to take them eventually. Last three years, the Raiders finished 16th, 17th, and 13th in EPR play on defense.

53:09Dave Helman: Look at those rosters outside of Max Crosby and tell me that that should be possible.

53:13Robert Mays: But even if they did that, even if you were like 16th, we were only picking 15 teams. You could have picked the Raiders and it wouldn't have been that bad of a pick, let alone the talent that the Steelers have. And it was so funny being there. I was there on the day that they were doing the press conferences for the coordinators. and Patrick Graham twice during his press conference thanked Omar Khan for the players on the team. You could just feel how excited he is to be working with what he has now compared to what the Raiders fronts looked like over the last couple of years. I think it's just the thought of these guys are going to be hard to block.

53:50Robert Mays: It's going to be hard to block these guys. And it's just a very different world than the one that he's been living in recently where he's had to be cobbling it together. We talked about it in the segment we did about Patrick Graham and Derek. This team played with more loaded boxes than any team in football last year because they had to. They just had no other way to hold up against the run. That shit is not going to look the same in Pittsburgh where all the guys you have up front are players that you theoretically have to get four hands on.

54:18Derrik Klassen: It's so funny. You look at the Steelers and so many of their players are getting long in the tooth or are insanely long in the tooth in Cam Hayward's case or you know like the linebackers aren't as good as their profile and paycheck might might suggest still a really really talented defense like relative to talent this is one of the more underperforming units of the last few years and it's just not a hard dot to connect that a dc that we all think really highly of we talked about it like a month ago with this level of talent i just i think it's gonna be pretty darn good i'm really looking

54:55Robert Mays: forward to it. I think it's actually kind of a similar discussion to the one we were having about the Browns, where I think a lot of the bones of what Patrick Graham wants to be are actually in line. If you gave Patrick Graham his druthers, where I'm not pigeonholed or boxed in by what my personnel looks like, like he has been at times, what would my ideal defense look like? It'd be a lot of man, and cover two is a changeup. What's exactly Jim Schwartz-ish? He comes from New England. That's where he comes from. And so I think that is what he would want to be at his core. That's what the Steelers were.

55:27Robert Mays: And so you're asking guys to do a lot of the same things, but you're adding in just those little layers of complexity that Pittsburgh just didn't have last year. Two things I'd point out last season, the Steelers were a 70 % man team when blitzing, only the Browns were higher. I don't think that'll happen again. I think as a pressure team, it'll be a little bit more diversified behind it. I think that we'll see the players up front moved around more than they were last year. Like TJ Watt isn't the same player he was a couple of years ago, but you're doing him a disservice by, and he, he prefers to do this.

55:58Robert Mays: He prefers to stay on one side that you're doing him a disservice when you know that they're able to chip him the same way every single time and account for him. So just a little bit more creativity with that. And I think just a little bit more built in flexibility from a check perspective. And I think that's one of the number one things that stood out to this team and this group of players to Patrick Graham is like how smart this entire group of guys is because of how many veterans we have, they feel further along from the mental side of it a week into camp than I think he's ever felt before as a defensive coordinator.

56:30Robert Mays: And so you're combining some of the things you can do above the neck with the talent level you now have while asking guys to do a lot of the same things that they're comfortable with. It's very easy to get excited about this group for like a whole bunch of different reasons. So what pick was that? That was pick seven? That was seven. So now I have a decision to make because I just never assumed that this team would be on the board as I was picking at eight. I thought I'd be having to pick between a couple other options.

57:02Derrik Klassen: This is hard. It's not easy when you have to make the call, is it? Because I just didn't assume they'd be here.

57:08Robert Mays: Shouldn't that make it easy if you didn't think they'd be here? Because there are two teams. It's one of those things where you have an idea of how it's going to go and you attach yourself to that. This is why I don't even try. So I was like, that's the team I kind of want to pick here.

57:25Robert Mays: I'm going to go with the Ravens. that's that's on that's on brand i'm gonna go with the ravens i you could easily make an argument for the vikings right the vikings been a top five defense in each of the last two years there's a chance that those rookies are just really good players right away but it's always a little bit of a question with that like they're really relying on those guys and they're really relying on dallas turner and maybe maybe it all falls into place but i think as i currently look at it and the ravens defense the secondary injuries are absolutely worth considering here and maybe making the selection before we know what's going on with Marlon Humphrey after he left practice today is a mistake but this is a combination of just gush about Jesse Minner I like the players enough and like Jesse Minner is really good at this I just I actually I was surprised that you guys were as gung-ho about saying they were like a firmly top eight team after the way that last year went I thought I I wasn't sure if I would be out on a limb alone thinking that they were like a definitively top 10 group with Jesse Minner but I do think that's where I sit with it.

58:26Derrik Klassen: I mean, it hinges on the health of some of these guys pretty heavily. It's and this could bite you in the ass. It's it's more fun to assume those guys are going to be useful players like particularly Matt Abike. I just love watching the guy play football. I hope he can be part of this. But assuming relatively good health, like the personnel is still good enough. And then every year we see the difference that these sorts of play callers can make for units and so like betting on jesse minner's just it it feels like a very safe bet to me and the ravens defense wasn't bad last year they were 17th in epa per play last year they were they just

59:01Dave Helman: weren't as good as i think that we've seen them be that's only bad relative to the standard of what the ravens right yes correct years so and they were pretty banged up last year actually like obviously with matt they were pretty banged up so you're you're you're banged up last year you

59:17Robert Mays: You finished 17th last year. Do you know who led the Ravens in pressures last season?

59:22Dave Helman: Was it still Kyle Vannoy? No. No.

59:25Robert Mays: It's worse than that.

59:27Dave Helman: Christ.

59:30Robert Mays: Travis Jones?

59:31Dave Helman: It was Travis Jones.

59:33Robert Mays: Wow. Travis Jones led the Ravens in pressures last year. You got 102 snaps from Matt Abike. You had the rough seasons from Marlon Humphrey and a bad first half from Roquan. and so like all of that when you take into consideration like even if it was just Zach Oregon we're in a spot where now instead of having Mike Green, Tabius Robinson, Kyle Van Nooyen whatever you brought in Zion Young and Trey Hendrickson you have year two of Mike Green you've completely remade the interior of the defensive line beyond Matt Abike so the personnel I think would have been better independent of whoever was calling plays the number that jumped out to me trying to put a point on the jesse minter part of this last year per next gen the ravens were 23rd in the nfl and epa per carry allowed on blocked box runs so you have they have as many blockers as you have defenders in the box that's why the ravens were playing a lot more single high last year than they had previously because they just couldn't hold up in some of those light box looks the chargers last season third in the nfl and epa per carry allowed on those block box runs.

1:00:38Robert Mays: Jesse Minter has just done a really good job of figuring out mechanically how to survive in that world. And the players are good enough to do it, especially if Matt Abike comes back. And so I think for a whole host of reasons, there are a lot of, there's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that this is a defense that's worth betting on. And so getting them at eight here, that's what I was originally planning on doing. The Vikings part of it complicated things a little bit, and maybe I regret that, but I'm okay with it.

1:01:07Derrik Klassen: I regret nothing because this worked out perfectly. So now you get Minnesota at nine. I was torn between Minnesota and Cleveland anyway. And Vikings fans, if you're pissed off, just imagine that I took the Vikings at six and got the Browns at nine. It's all gravy after the fact because that's what I'm doing. I'm taking Minnesota. This definitely feels, this feels like a discount. I think it is. It absolutely is. It's understandable how it happens though, right? Because in addition to counting on so many rookies, I think you're you're left wondering who's going to be the heady presence on the back end that makes such a complex scheme tick, which weirdly Harrison Smith hasn't retired, but he's not a Viking.

1:01:48Derrik Klassen: So I don't really know what to do with that. I guess we can, you know, we can keep an eye on it. Take that as a sign that that it's on the table. No, that they feel good about their guys. Yeah. Or at the very least, you want to get through the grueling part of training camp and see what happens. I mean, my guess for who that guy is going to be is is my my guy, Josh Metellus. I mean, it's the most sensible pick just in terms of like guys who and I guess Byron Murphy as well. Either way, Byron Murphy, Josh Metellus on the back end. We all love the James Pierre signing. And then hopefully one of these younger guys, be it Theo Jackson, be it Jay Ward.

1:02:28Derrik Klassen: I loved Jacoby Thomas as a draft prospect. see what he can bring you as as a rookie i think i trust that to gel together at some point but like it's it's understandable if you're worried about how well all of those guys are going to pick up and make it hum considering the amount of ridiculous shit that brian flores asks of his back seven and then we already talked about it but if this if this defense is going to achieve a ceiling like last year where they're third in defensive DVOA, just feel like multiple of these rookies on the front have to hit right away. Like Caleb Banks has to be a dude.

1:03:07Derrik Klassen: Jake Golday has to be somebody that you can count on to have a role. Dominique Orange, somebody, because it just feels like you lose a little bit by losing Grenard. I mean, I guess if Dallas Turner is just that freaking guy right off the bat, maybe that doesn't matter on the edge than you were.

1:03:22Robert Mays: I mean, the fact that last year when Van Ginkle and Grenard were banged up, Dallas Turner was the third edge. Now, beyond Dallas Turner, what are you doing? Are you playing Jake Golday down there? Because right now, that might be your best option considering the current makeup of the roster. And I mean, Jalen Redman is a really good player. All the reviews have been that Caleb Banks looks fantastic. And so even moving on from those aging defensive tackles they had last year, could we talk ourselves into the interior defensive line play being as good this year for the Vikings? as it was a year ago?

1:03:53Robert Mays: Maybe. But you're asking a lot of Caleb Banks in that situation. I think that's kind of where I sit. You're asking a lot of blank. You're asking a lot of blank for this to be as good as it was a year ago. And maybe we're at a point where we should be giving Brian Flores the same benefit of the doubt as we're giving some of these other guys. And we probably should be. But I think there are just a lot of contingencies that this hinges on that maybe gave me a little bit more hesitance than some of the other teams that went ahead of the Vikings.

1:04:18Dave Helman: That's kind of where I'm at. And I give Flores the benefit of the doubt and the fact that like you could give him 11 of you and I and he could get us to league average. So I don't think that they're going to be like a bad defense. I just like them being a consistently top five unit the way that they have last year. It's exactly what you said. We're asking a lot of of rookies or second and third year guys to step up to be as good as last year. Like that feels like the ceiling is to be as good as last year. And obviously that, you know, gets you to the fourth best defense in the league or whatever.

1:04:46Dave Helman: But it's not like I think with some of the other defenses we've talked about it's like if x happens they are better than they were before and i just don't know if that's true with as much of the vikings things here also i don't think it's

1:05:00Derrik Klassen: the end of the world if we merely think of the vikings as a top 10 unit i was about to say that

1:05:05Robert Mays: like finishing top 10 on defense three years in a row yes really really hard yes very impressive thing to have done. So I, it's not some huge shot of disrespect that you think the Vikings might be the ninth best defense in the league this year. And I want to be clear about this just for like all social media situations associated with the show. This is not a ranking. This is a draft. This is not a ranking. So this is not collectively the athletic football show says the Vikings are the ninth best defense. This is a draft. Just keep that in mind. As you look at the list of these teams as they came off the board without context.

1:05:44Robert Mays: That's all I'm going to say.

1:05:45Derrik Klassen: I will say I'm excited about every team's preseason for one reason or another, but the Vikings are so high on my list of teams I want to see in the preseason because when I was putting my board together, you have to like take a deep breath and walk away from the computer when you read some of this shit coming out of Minnesota. Caleb Banks is like Godzilla attacking the city. Dominique Orange and Caleb Banks are going to like man the middle for the Vikings for a decade. And Jake Golday is Flores is perfect. Like can opener player. It's all very exciting. And I just, I can't wait to see what it looks like.

1:06:19Derrik Klassen: I hope these guys get a lot of snaps in the preseason. And if they look the part, I'm even more excited about this pick than I already am. But it is okay to have a, you know, a hesitant approach with, with the team asking so much of its rookie class. All right.

1:06:35Robert Mays: So you're up again now. as we start the fourth round.

1:06:38Derrik Klassen: You were picking again at number 10. Who you got at 10? All right. It was asking too much to think that I was going to get the Ravens and the Vikings in one fell swoop. So that's fine. All right. If I'm picking again, I'm going to do, I'll do one more. That's really just a vote in coaching because we've talked about, there's not a, there's not a whole lot new here getting you excited, but the Jacksonville J*****s were a top 10 defense last year. God damn it. Even if they're not as good as they were last year, there's still plenty there, mainly the front, mainly, you know, Josh Heinz Allen. And I believe in Trayvon Walker.

1:07:19Derrik Klassen: I think he's still an ascending player. And Anthony Campanelli working with all of it. They lose Devin Lloyd. But really, I don't like, this is a flawed way to look at it. I understand. But while I was doing this, I was just like, Like, well, if you lose Devin Lloyd, but Travis Hunter is a player, then that's a wash to me. Or maybe even a net positive, depending on how good Hunter is. So if he was capable of getting them to sixth in defensive DVOA last year, and it's more or less the same cast, I'm fine making a bet on this.

1:07:52Robert Mays: The numbers, obviously, when you're talking about a team that had this number of turnovers, like the EPA per play versus everything else starts to get a little bit muddy. even if this team relied on getting a ton of turnovers last year they finished ninth in defensive success rate beyond the turnovers like down to down so still a really good defense and we talk about teams that are able to defend the run out of certain looks and that being the engine that really makes a defense go this team was second in the nfl last year in epa per carry allowed when they had a blocking disadvantage and i think it that to me is a very cool the team that was number one i think this is talking about trying to connect the dots with coaching so the team that finished number one in the NFL last year and EPA per carry a lot at a blocking disadvantage was the Green Bay Packers, which is where Anthony Campanile was with Jeff Halfley before he came over to the Jags.

1:08:41Robert Mays: And if you look at some of the things that the Jags do in those light boxes, they use a lot of the same structural things and like twists and run stunts that the Packers use. And so that this to me is why the Campanile defense is so cool. So if you look at Campanile's history, he was in Miami with Flores, that he was the linebacker coach when Flores got there. And he stayed in Miami all the way through when Vic was there. And so you have this guy who was there with Brian Flores. He was there with Vic Fangia. And then he goes to work with Jeff Halfley in Green Bay before he gets the job here. When you look at the Jaguars defense, it's all of those things.

1:09:18Robert Mays: It's all of those things combined into this, like, it's a lot of too high like umbrella like uh a lot of like cloud cover six type stuff that fan joe was doing their blitz stuff they'll zero you they'll do a lot of crazy shit on third down the same way that flores would and he has some of the principles that halfley had and to do that and kind of pick and choose all a cart like that and make it feel as cohesive and put together in year one as camp and ele did last year that's why i was just so impressed at the job that he did and so like you said even if personnel wise they didn't really add anybody we can talk about some of the things that they'll have this year that they didn't last year but I'd be fine betting on him here I really really wanted to pick the Jags next so I'm pretty bummed about this I had them

1:10:03Dave Helman: a little bit higher than this and like when I picked the Steelers I almost thought about the Jaguars and I think there's some part of like when I look at the roster I was like is that really the sixth best defense so that's why I would have let them slip to about this range like ninth or tenth probably but even beyond like some of the specific schematic things that uh campanelli is doing like you know some of his umbrella coverages some of the insane pressures that he's throwing it's just a defense that when i watch it it just feels very well taught like a lot of guys that you would not expect to be super play like obviously josh heinz allen is kicking ass and trayvon walker looks great but like devin lloyd in year one in the system playing his best football and being as fast as he was downhill in a way that we'd never really seen from him before I thought was impressive Monteric Brown being a player who like athletically is is whatever but you watch just where he's going in terms of zone always knowing where to be playing his press coverage technique incredibly well like the the players that you didn't expect to be like really on their Ps and Qs I was like okay that is a defense where they they're clearly teaching this well to their players and that is a thing that I do think kind of carries over year to year.

1:11:10Robert Mays: 100 % agree. And if you look at the back end, I just think they're better set up to do more things than they were able to do last year. Because if you want, like, Jerrion Jones played well enough last year. He had to play. He played for the entire season. So now he's your backup corner, I think, inside and outside. And so if you want to play a little bit more dime and you move one of those guys inside, whether it's Monteric Brown, Travis Hunter, and you have Jones play outside, or you bring him in as the nickel and you slide one of those safeties down to play dime, they go three deep at safety now.

1:11:40Robert Mays: I think we'll see more Ransaw than we did last year. And like you said, what does the Travis Hunter element of this bring to the defense? Like I think the two things that beyond how it's all put together that can elevate the Jags this year is Trayvon Walker taking the step that we've talked about and Travis Hunter being a really high-end corner. If you drop those two things into what the Jags were already doing last year, I do think that that helps overcome the one loss that you had being Devin Lloyd.

1:12:08Derrik Klassen: The one thing that gives me pause, and it doesn't mean that they couldn't be a good defense without it. But I mean, we talk about turnover variants and obviously they were so good at takeaways last year. I got this from the FTN Almanac. They recovered 70 % of their fumbles last year. So like, it's not as if they forced a shitload of fumbles and just had average turnover luck. they recovered like every fumble they forced last year that was the third highest number in the last decade and you have an off ball linebacker who had five interceptions and he's not there anymore by the way the odds that they do that again are not good doesn't mean they can't be a good defense but that was a really big component of their success last year and when i saw that number 70

1:12:55Robert Mays: it made me a little nervous but that's when you have a crazy amount of turnovers that's the fumble variance typically goes in your direction and but again i think that the fact that they were ninth in defensive success rate last year the only real thing the only real area where there was a huge gap for them between success and epa which it can be explained for a lot of things it's third downs and so there's just more variance there it's when they were blitzing so they were league average in success rate when blitzing they were second in epa per drop back but other than that when you look at like situationally i don't think there's a huge difference between what the epa and success rate looks like for them last year and to me that is a even if we had a lot of turnovers and we

1:13:31Dave Helman: feasted on them down to down this was still a really good defense all right i really was hoping

1:13:37Robert Mays: i could get the steelers at 11 i wasn't sure if you guys would be as excited about the steelers and so that was the team i kind of had circled at 11 i'm gonna do my first kind of surprise pick here because i think there are probably people that think this team is would be lucky to finish in the top half of the league defensively. I'm going with the Buffalo Bills.

1:13:57Dave Helman: Okay. I think this was one of the handful of teams I thought somebody's going to take a swing and believe in the outside. That's where I'm at.

1:14:06Derrik Klassen: Your choices correspond with the drum beats that you've had for a lot of the summer. I'm not terribly surprised to hear this. Where do you think the Bills finished

1:14:17Robert Mays: in EPA per play defensively last season? Like 20th?

1:14:22Dave Helman: yeah I probably would guess something about well they were weird because it was a lot of explosives so I it might have even been worse than that I don't know 13th okay that's not that bad that's

1:14:32Robert Mays: not that bad 13th and I do think they're bringing back all the same like important pieces to the defense that the personnel did not get worse it's not as if they lost the players that allowed them to be 13th and now you're asking Jim Leonard to be the one that's doing all this heavy lifting to make up for that.

1:14:51Derrik Klassen: No, like the bills were firmly on my radar for the record. Like the personnel is solid. They've made some interesting additions and we we've already talked about the play caller bump on this show with a couple other teams. So if Jim Leonard's good at his job with what the bills have to offer, it would be, it would be easy to make the case that they could go higher. Like, I don't, I don't think this is a crazy pick at all.

1:15:13Robert Mays: I could easily see them being like a top 10 defense that kind of sneaks up on us a little bit just because there's so much variance when you're changing the way that you play to the degree that they're going to be changing the way that they play and I think I'm just willing to bet on the positive side of that variance

1:15:28Dave Helman: and I think I should be more than I have this offseason I think I still have like a even though like I I think Jim Leonard is a good play caller like when he was at Wisconsin like I remember studying their backers and Keanu Benton and being like this guy's got it how long it takes for him to get to the NFL and all that stuff. Who knows? Obviously, he's there now and had done a good job in Denver with Vance Joseph. But I think I still have memories of how bad they were tackling last year and some of the explosives they gave up that it's hard for me to fully get over that, even if it is a new system.

1:15:59Robert Mays: I don't know how much this matters. Did you hear him this week? Yeah, he was like, we're tackling. It's something that he came out and said, I can't wait to see our team tackle because they were not good at that last year. Hell yeah. Because schematically,

1:16:12Dave Helman: I don't think Sean McDermott's defense wasn't the most insane thing in the world, but schematically, it wasn't perfect, but it was sound and good in a lot of ways. The back end was just small and could not tackle anyone at all. And I do think that if they can fix that, that does kind of shore up a lot of the issues that they had last year.

1:16:30Robert Mays: And there are some guys where that size is going to show up, right? Like Terrell Bernard is going to be probably the smallest off-ball linebacker in the NFL again. There are guys that just, it still sticks out to you, the lack of size and physicality at some spots on this defense. But overall, even if there's some square peg kind of round hole concerns with some of the guys they're asking to do something that's a little bit different, I still feel like there's enough talent here. And if we have just like a difference-making play caller coming into this situation and this defense can just feel a little bit more chaotic, complimentary than it has over the last couple of years.

1:17:07Robert Mays: I don't know. I think there's something here.

1:17:10Derrik Klassen: I think the Bills are a great example of how quickly things can change on you if you're not paying attention. Because it's so easy. Obviously, McDermott's gone and that's huge. But like it's so easy. you just have this mental image of the bills and like they were so veteran for so long and and Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer played there forever and like some of the some of the older some of the old guard is still there like Christian Benford and Terrell Bernard and Ed Oliver and

1:17:38Robert Mays: Greg Rousseau like some of those even those guys like Christian Benford was drafted in 2022 like

1:17:43Derrik Klassen: it's only been a few years 2022 is ancient history at this point but like even still there are so many like new fresh faces on this defense that have no idea. They weren't there for 13 seconds. They weren't even in college for 13 seconds at this point. And it's when there's so much continuity with an organization, it's easy to like gloss over that fact. But then you dive into it and it's it's way more exciting than I think it looks at first glance when you're just thinking about what you know about Buffalo.

1:18:15Robert Mays: I mean there we'll see what happens with Maxwell Harrison holding up over the course of an entire season and what this team what this scheme asked him to do but I just I'm curious enough about how different this is going to look and the potential benefits of that to take Buffalo in a spot like this where I think there's a lot of teams really jumbled up and again the two teams that I anticipated picking here were the Jags and the Steelers I was hoping I'd get them at 11 and with both of those gone I'm okay with this.

1:18:40Derrik Klassen: D Alford and Chauncey Gardner Johnson being in this secondary is exciting to me.

1:18:44Robert Mays: Have the, one of the guys that just like nothing but good reviews from what the campus look like so far in the off season is D Alford. He was awesome last year.

1:18:53Derrik Klassen: It's, and it was a big price tag relative to how much, like how much good football he's played, but he was, he was awesome last year.

1:19:01Robert Mays: They really did seek him out. And for a couple of different reasons,

1:19:04Derrik Klassen: I think that because he kicked their ass on national.

1:19:06Robert Mays: I mean, yeah, I mean, But I think it's what that scheme asks him to do with like a lot of the matchy principles that the Falcons had. That's a nickel that you feel a lot more comfortable holding up in man or man like situations. He showed a consistent ability to do that in Atlanta. It's not what Teron Johnson was by the end of his time there. And so they needed a different sort of skill set. And this is actually what I thought was interesting is that so that smaller nickel now, we're going away from those smaller nickels. But in part because teams can get them in the run fit if you're going to play all this nickel.

1:19:37Robert Mays: and you can pick on those guys a little bit. The Broncos, because they had these smaller nickels, like Jaquan McMillan's not a big player, they have a lot of mechanisms built into the defense and how they react to certain motions to try to keep that player out of the fit as much as possible. And so Jim Wetter just came from a place where they've built an elite run defense with an undersized nickel consistently over the last few years that I think minimizes or marginalizes how much of a concern that should be with a player like D. Alford stepping into this system. So even little things like that, where it's like, I think even if this seems like it might be a problem.

1:20:12Robert Mays: All right, well, we have a way to account for that now. And so I'm just I'm really interested to see what this group looks like with Jim Leonard over the course of a year. All right. So that's the 11th pick. Derek, you were up at 12 here with the last pick of the third round. What do you got?

1:20:26Dave Helman: I think I'm going to go back to a tried and true defensive play caller here. And this is taking a chance on some rookies, but I'm going to take the Kansas City Chiefs. They were literally my 12th team.

1:20:37Derrik Klassen: So you've been watching those Peter Woods highlights, huh?

1:20:40Dave Helman: Buddy, and I was as high as anybody could be coming out of the draft.

1:20:44Derrik Klassen: I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but you're looking very vindicated for your Peter Woods belief right now.

1:20:51Dave Helman: Right. He hasn't played yet. I don't know how good he's actually going to be, but I liked him. And then the camp talk is that he's as good as we were hoping he would be. So my hype there is continued. Like, I think that he can give that front the juice that it needs. Tonga I think can be a really big piece for them in terms of just being able to play the nose and like hold up they have not really had a player like that next to Chris Jones since like I mean Derek Nottie played decent in that role like four years ago but it's been I think a long time since they've had someone who was it's been a long time since they've had like a can you just hang here and and be a really good player that way I'm still a little bit worried about the edge stuff you know you hope that our Mason Thomas is going to give them something but I do think that like even though it's a lot of rookies and young players in the back end obviously monsoor delane no williams stepping into a role them changing stuff out like hicks is leaving um or brian cook is leaving alohi gilman coming in there's a lot of change but i think i just trust steve spagnolo with a little bit more juice and i trust what his vision is supposed to be for this retooled secondary than maybe getting a little bit bigger playing a little bit more man that i'm just like i'm gonna ride with a guy that i've seen do this before i completely understand that i i

1:21:59Robert Mays: I chased the shiny new object with the new system and new play caller in Buffalo. You're chasing the shiny new objects with the rookies.

1:22:05Dave Helman: Yes.

1:22:06Robert Mays: Yeah. That's the choice you made. I was between those two and that's ultimately how it shook out.

1:22:12Dave Helman: It literally is just like, are you, do you want to roll with the new players or the new coaches? And I think, and I will say too, I think a lot of my philosophy with the teams that I picked is like, I, a lot of times get very player focused. And obviously I just said at the top of this that like I'm taking them because I trust Spagnuolo. But the reason that I picked the Texans first overall is because I think it's players focused. The reason that I might have taken the Rams over the Seahawks is I think that that's like the talent is just insane on that team. And so I think I'm just trusting the injection of talent here on top of I've seen this coach do it before.

1:22:44Robert Mays: I don't blame you at all. Again, I had them at 12. I think you can easily make an argument they should be higher than that. If the rookies end up being like the sort of impact players, it sounds like they have a chance to be. but I was picking between that between the bills and the chiefs at 11 and so I completely understand

1:22:59Derrik Klassen: this I really hate the position that this puts me in because this is my last pick right this is your last is your last pick so there's half a dozen boring teams that all right boring sounds harsh but there's half a dozen teams that you could reasonably expect to like be a top 15 defense top half of the league defense and just like, oh yeah, good, good pick Dave. That's nice. Or I can chase the dragon one more time. And I, I'm going to do it because it's more fun. And we talked too much about how much we like the guy to just have no faith that it could be any better. I can't believe you're going to do this because I was going to do this at 15.

1:23:46Derrik Klassen: I want the New York giants. Oh, wow. Oh, okay. You'll see. We'll see. Well, we'll find out. I like Denard Wilson, and they have a lot of fun talent. And surely three years in a row, they can't be awful after having preseason expectations. Right? Right? Right? At least the play color is different. So there's a reason that it would be better. So you can get me there. There are so many fun players on the front seven of this defense. And a little bit of that is wish casting with Arvel Reese, obviously. But the edges are incredibly good players. Losing Dexter Lawrence is a big deal, but I think they've done enough to plug that up that I'm at least not going to lose sleep about it.

1:24:31Derrik Klassen: Same exact thing could be said for Tremaine Edmonds. I'm not trying to sell him as some top-tier linebacker, but I think the middle of this defense is functional. and I think they have a lot of bodies with which Denard Wilson can do fun, goofy shit on the back end. And I hate myself for saying it, but maybe, maybe this time it'll actually work and all of this talent on the Giants defense will pay off. They, they deserve to be picked 15th, but I don't have the 15th pick. So I'm going to take them 13th and God help me. I did not anticipate the Giants being one of the teams that was drafted.

1:25:10Robert Mays: I just, Abdul Carter and Brian Burns. I'm just so scarred. I like the Giants and not even scarred because I, every off season for the last two or three years, there has been talk about drum beats. There has been such a, a chorus of like, man, the Giants defense, like that front of the Giants defense. And my pushback always has been like, I'd like to see it first. And that's still where I sit. And I might be late because of that. Like this might be the year because of Denard Wilson, because of some of the stuff where it happened. Darius Alexander's had a nice camp, but things like that maybe arvel reese just supercharges this thing but the back end is still pretty unsettled like they're right now it seems like they're cycling in like four different guys for those outside corner spots maybe that's a good thing maybe cold in the hood is better than any corner they've had over the last couple years but this is just a team where i've been so i've kept the hype at arm's length so many years in a row that i'm just going to continue to do that and if it means that i'm a half step late and appreciating the giants defense i think i can reconcile it by saying that they're my last pick.

1:26:16Derrik Klassen: I'm picking them to be a middle of the pack defense. I wouldn't pick them to be a top 10 defense, but like, I don't know. I'd like to think Denard Wilson can get them to like 15 or 16, in which case this'll, this'll age fine. I clear. I hate myself for doing this. I really do. But Abdul Carter is awesome. Brian Burns is awesome. Arvel Reese was one of my favorite players in the draft. Like again, at the end of the day it's just more fun to pick the thing that you're intrigued and excited about what i'm about

1:26:45Dave Helman: to do yeah i don't think i would have picked them but i think the difference between us doing i mean we weren't doing it i think last year we were pretty clear-sighted about like i don't know if this roster is as good as it seems but the part of the roster that people were excited about was like if the pass rush is good everything else will be good well the pass rush was exactly as good as it was supposed to be like avril carter was incredible brian burns was incredible cave I think even had his best season. It's just that everything else was so bad that it kind of didn't matter. I do think that you can see the world where everything else is good enough that you actually do get the value out of the pass rush this time.

1:27:20Robert Mays: 100%. This absolutely could be the year where it all comes together. I'm just in a spot where I'm just like, eh.

1:27:26Derrik Klassen: It's funny because statistically, the Titans' pass defense was atrocious last year. Like Denard Wilson did not have the magic sauce enough to turn that into a respectable unit. The magic sauce is called Brian Burns and Abdul Carter.

1:27:40Robert Mays: That's what he did not have last year or any corners.

1:27:43Dave Helman: I was going to say last year, we debate how good the corners are on the Giants. Last year's Titans were, I mean, there's a reason they spent a half a billion dollars on corners this year.

1:27:52Derrik Klassen: It's wimpy to talk about how much you like and respect Denard Wilson and then not be willing to do this.

1:27:57Robert Mays: Well, listen, buddy, we're on the same page here with what I'm about to do at 14. The two teams I should take here, and I will put those out there, just based on what these teams did last year and what I think they can do this year. The New England Patriots. Sure. So many of the numbers to the Patriots' defense last year were really impressive situationally. In defined passing situations, the Patriots finished first in E.P.A. per drop back last year with a success rate of 34%, which is the second best in the NFL. There's plenty of really impressive Patriots stats from a year ago and now Zach Kerr full year as a defensive coordinator.

1:28:33Robert Mays: I should take the Patriots here. The New Orleans Saints. Brands Daly did a phenomenal job last year with that group, even if there might be some talent concerns. Thought hard about the Saints. Those are the two teams that I think deserve to be mentioned, even if they do not get picked. I'm picking neither of those because I'm picking the Dallas Cowboys. Oh, my God.

1:28:53Derrik Klassen: It's too big of a... I mean, that's fair, actually. It's not that big of a jump, considering the Giants were not far off of that territory.

1:29:01Robert Mays: I'm picking the Dallas Cowboys. I suppose when you put it down,

1:29:04Derrik Klassen: all of his favorite coaches in this exercise, which is not even really what I meant to do.

1:29:07Robert Mays: I like it to be clear. Like I would have taken the Seahawks, but that's partially my pen down. It's not like a coach driven thing. I took the Broncos at five. That's like a player driven thing. Plus everything else. The Ravens. I really do feel like I have a chance to be like a top five ish defense this year beyond whatever the Jesse Minter situation is. And then who else did I take at 11? Oh, that's not even a coach thing. That's just like a stylistic thing. I'm like, let's ride.

1:29:31Derrik Klassen: McDonald, McDonald Minner, and now Christian Parker, though. Like, those are absolutely your guys. The Christian Parker thing is a fly planting thing. That's fine.

1:29:39Robert Mays: That's very much a, I can't talk about this the entire offseason and then just be a coward when it all comes down to it. It's also the 14th pick.

1:29:46Derrik Klassen: Maze to the Bears is me to the Cowboys. Like, I just don't, I don't even want to touch the Cowboys because I worry that it'll disappear into a puff of smoke. So I'm happy to let you have this.

1:29:57Robert Mays: the two leading snap getters for the 2025 Dallas Cowboys were Donovan Wilson and Kenneth Murray, who are not currently on NFL rosters. That's not great. The three corners not named Duran Bland to get 400 plus snaps for the Cowboys last year. Kair Elam, Trayvon Diggs, Reddy Stewart. Yep. Trayvon Diggs not on a team right now. Kair Elam and Reddy Stewart are three spots down in their respective depth charts. they went out and obviously again you're me relying on rookies a little bit with malachi lawrence caleb downs part of this this is me just projecting caleb downs having like a cooper de jean-esque impact on this team immediately in order for this to come together but i believe that has a chance to be true i think that the the part of this that i feel most rooted in like the willingness to do this is that it's not just the splashy things it's that they also remade like connective tissue parts of this roster that I think will go under appreciated and why the team overall will feel different.

1:30:58Robert Mays: When you look at the most important things the Cowboys did this off season, guys like Jonathan Bullard and Otito Ogbonia are not going to be mentioned here. Those guys understand how to play the run in this system. Like that being like the second wave of players where Jonathan Bullard was raised in this defense. He got drafted by Vic Fangio. He played for Brandon Staley last year. Obonio's with the Chargers and Jesse Minter. And so you have these guys that two or three lines down the depth chart can contribute to this just feeling like a more buttoned-up, grown-up NFL defense combined with splashy things like Jalen Thompson, Quinn Williams for a full season, Caleb Downs now.

1:31:36Robert Mays: So I really do, and we talked a little bit about, fuck, what's his name? Rookie? Kobe Durant. Five, four, three, two, one. We talked a little bit about Kobe Durant and the players who could swing the season thing. Like every year there is a defense that comes out of nowhere to be one of the best defenses in the league. It happens every single year. The Jaguars were the worst defense in professional football two years ago, and they were a top five defense by a ton of metrics last year. This happens every single season. And I am making a bet that it could be the Dallas Cowboys this year.

1:32:09Dave Helman: And even a more realistic one for the spot where this team finished last year and where we're kind of drafting them to finish this year the atlanta falcons finished 12th in dvoa last year and they were 29th the year before that's kind of the bet that you're making it happens yes it can happen it's that's the thing some of these picks feel crazy but like there's going to be a team that we leave off that is going to make this jump that was you know 25th if you don't take them at 15 right exactly it's going to be some team that does that and i totally get that so i this was a team that I did not necessarily have on my radar because I think I was just a little bit scared of doing that with them though I did have one other team I considered kind of making a similar jump but I you can get me there you have the last yeah I'm not going to take them I thought about really hard the Tennessee Titans I think that there's a chance that Robert Sala just like wheels up ready to go that would have never crossed my mind but I like it I see the

1:33:08Robert Mays: logic because i did not write them down but they were a team where i was like should i have the

1:33:11Dave Helman: titans in here and i was like no i'm okay and there's the the reason i i kind of got to them was obviously they were they were bad last year and the you know the cowboys made a lot of changes too but like you look at the titans too deep it is like 50 turnover if not more like it is completely robert solace defense which is the reason i might have taken them there so before i actually make my choice are we 14 picks through and did nobody pick the chargers at all no one pick the chargers i think with chargers with my last pick i would like to do that because i i do think that they will be worse without jesse minter like everything that we said about jesse minter um in the raven section i think absolutely holds true and i think that he was a really really good play caller i still think at a certain point this defense has enough talent to be like a slightly above average defense because they didn't really lose a whole lot and i do have some amount of faith that you know O 'Leary had been in the system before Harbaugh doing this thing where he's like go take your year abroad come back like I think it's it's a mix of inherent faith in like the Harbaugh system and organization and foundation and them still having players that I like like Thule is still really good I think the D-line has some talent like Henley I assume is going to you know hopefully play better this year Denzel Perryman is my favorite player in the league and he's still back they're gonna give them good rundown so like it's an imperfect roster and I think if we were ranking defenses they would not make my top 10 but if I'm picking them at 15th I think I feel pretty good about where we're at yeah I absolutely should have mentioned them as

1:34:44Robert Mays: one of the teams I should pick instead of the Cowboys like the Patriots uh the Chargers are probably number one and two there like I literally had them like 12th on my list of teams but I'm just making a point by picking Dallas at 14 here so I you're getting no pushback they they should absolutely be in the top 15. It probably should have been drafted a little bit higher, even if you're talking about a first year coordinator.

1:35:05Derrik Klassen: It's not fair. They're a team that's easy to overlook because outside of Akeem Mezador, who is an unknown, there's not much in the way of personnel ads and they changed play callers. And you would assume even if Chris O 'Leary is really good, you would assume there's going to be a learning curve. And so it's just kind of easy to not think about them, but that doesn't mean there'll be a bad defense at all. Where I come

1:35:27Robert Mays: back to with this is that it's one of those teams that I just wonder how many elite players are here still and Jesse Minter was able to make the ninth best defense in the league out of non-elite players I think that's really hard to do and I just wonder if a new defensive coordinator can do that like if you're going to play the same sort of style of defense right like I think you can make a similar like I think people would look at me saying that and be like well what about the bills how many elite players do the bills have well the bills are now going to play a style of defense it reminds me of atlanta last year where it's just like if you can kind of make a mess of this i think that there's just potentially more variance associated with it the chargers don't play that way and so i think it just i have a harder time seeing it with the first team with a first time coordinator there than i would in a lot of other situations if if because i just have still reservations about what the high-end talent looks like for this team and that's again like i

1:36:23Dave Helman: I don't really think that the ceiling for this team is, I think even in the best case scenario, probably like the seventh or eighth best in the defense in the league, at the very, very tippy top. I just like, last year the Colts were 15th in DBOA. I would be shocked if they're a worse defense than that. Like, that's kind of where I'm at with my thought process here. They just feel like the safe get me on base pick. They should have gone higher.

1:36:45Robert Mays: They're like, you have nothing to apologize for here. The fact that they were still available at 15 is, there are reasons for that, but I think you're in the right for scooping them up here and having that be it.

1:36:55Dave Helman: They just feel boring as the last pick, which is not what I wanted to do, but it's where we arrived.

1:37:01Derrik Klassen: It's funny you brought up the Colts because that would be, that was one of my first teams off. I talked to Derek while you were out on the road about the difference that a healthy sauce and Charverius Ward could make for that team, like if they actually play the full season, which we really barely got to see them play together. I'm so scared of the edge room on that team. I'm so scared of that it goes a long way if you have excellent secondary play I it's harder for me to play that game that way rather than the other way around I if those if those two guys are healthy and playing well I'm I'm pretty excited about the Colts not excited enough to

1:37:37Robert Mays: pick them obviously but I just wanted to say that I at this time of year at just the amount of sheer amount of time I spend looking at depth charts I'm just sitting here closing my eyes looking at If you pull up the cold step chart right now, I got it in front of me. The first player listed at one of the edge spots, literally among the hole too deep, is Arden Key.

1:37:54Derrik Klassen: How dare you talk to me about that? Great, great depth player. Right, is that right?

1:37:58Robert Mays: He's the first player listed on the cold step chart. That's like how my brain works these days. And so he's the first player listed. I'm just like, I don't know how I feel about that. And that's the thing.

1:38:06Dave Helman: He's been a good player now for the last handful of years as like a situational useful pass rusher. But he's like the perfect player to articulate that. But like, if he's got to come off the bench for you or if he's got to start four weeks in the middle of the season, awesome to have. If that's where you're at week one, then I have a little bit more questions about where your team is at.

1:38:26Robert Mays: Bingo. That's exactly where I am. If the Colts had Trey Hendrickson, wheels up, let's go. But they don't. 100%. And so I'm a little bit more worried about that. I'm surprised neither of you guys picked Patriots.

1:38:39Dave Helman: Patriots I would have been eyeing here. Them I am. So we've done the whole schedule thing with the Patriots and stuff on both sides of the ball. I think it really applies less to their offense. Like, you know, Bill Barnwell did a piece on it. The schedule of defenses they played was not really like abnormally bad. They played a lot of terrible quarterbacks last year. And I do think that they were doing a lot of interesting stuff. And I really do think they turned it up towards the end of the season. They were really healthy when they were playing the good teams. They were good in the playoffs, but they were really, really healthy last year, which like that was the only time in Carlton Davis's career he had played 17 games yeah I just like I think they are for as much as with the offense I'm like I don't need to see it again I believe it they're going to be elite the defense I like a lot of what they did I think I do want to see it again though before I'm like fully wheels up with them being that kind of team you have the picks I do have the picks Derek Texans Eagles Steelers Chiefs Chargers Robert Seahawks Broncos Ravens, Bills, Cowboys, Dave, Rams, Browns, Vikings, Jaguars, Giant.

1:39:42Derrik Klassen: One of the Bills of the Cowboys is just going to, we'll see, and destroy me. Jim Leonard would never do that to you. He's going to destroy me. Derek very smartly just took the good teams, and you and I are enamored with long shot bets. Like, that's the problem here. And maybe it'll work, but I'm not going to be surprised if Derek just very solidly made all good decisions and we each made at least one or two shitty ones.

1:40:07Robert Mays: But defense is so weird every year. Last year was more consistent, but defense is so weird. This is the place to be crazy and do some wild shit that doesn't seem to make sense.

1:40:16Derrik Klassen: The Patriots are probably going to be really good on defense. There are a couple other teams that fit that description as well. But yeah, I'd rather get weird with it and see what happens.

1:40:25Dave Helman: I think on this show, it took an unbelievable amount of discipline to not look at teams like the Titans and be like, I'll take them instead of the Chargers. I do think, though, when we do this for the offenses, I feel like that's going to be a little bit more me being like looking at the Green Goblin mask and doing something stupid.

1:40:41Robert Mays: There are a lot of offenses this year that would hope you to do that. Yes. Typically, each year you just pick the same offenses. There are a couple of Chase the Dragon offenses this year that we're going to have to sort through. And by the way, we'll be doing that next week. Same sort of idea. All right. That is all we've got for today. A quick reminder, September 1st, Lincoln Hall in Chicago, live show, wins pool draft. Really excited about the live show. Love doing the first one. Please get your tickets if you are interested in coming. We would love to see all of you. We'll do some Q &A after.

1:41:14Robert Mays: We'll be hanging out after. We'd love to meet everyone that comes through. So please, September 1st, Tuesday, 7-ish p.m.?

1:41:22Dave Helman: 7.30. 7.30 p.m.

1:41:25Robert Mays: start time. If you're interested in that, please grab tickets. You can get them on the Lincoln Hall website. The link is in the description below, wherever you listen to your podcasts. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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