Edge rusher draft class breakdown with Dane Brugler

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1:33Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Chatting edge rushers today with Dane Brugler and Derek Klassen. The Beast is out. Came out on Wednesday, April 8th. We spent a little bit of time chatting about that with Dane before doing some edge rushing superlatives. We hit a lot of the categories that we talked about in our receiver show. Obviously, best slot is not going to apply to this group of players. And so we added a couple edge rushing specific ones, but similar to the receiving group. I think there's a lot of different flavors of player here and really enjoyed running through these categories with me, Dane and Derek.

2:08Robert Mays: So let's get to it right now.

2:19Robert Mays: It's beast day and we are talking about some beasts today on the athletic football show. We're recording this on Wednesday, April 8th. The Beast has been out now for, I don't know, seven or so hours. Dane, you're still alive. You've made it past the initial wave of people's reactions. How are you feeling right now? Feeling good. Yeah, today's a mix of excitement, anxiety, a lot of those different things. But so far, feedback's been awesome. It's been really cool to share it with everybody. You know, it's a year's worth of work compiled in one document. And just want to give credit to a lot of people behind the scenes.

2:55I mean, you guys with the videos is awesome. The art that we have up there, all the different navigation tools, the interactivity that you can do to navigate through the beast is so awesome. So a lot of good people help me bring this thing to life.

3:11Robert Mays: Two things I'll say. One, I appreciate you letting us get our grubby little hands on it. We've been trying to do some more video stuff. I thought it would be fun to see if we could incorporate some of that into the fact that The Beast is a digital offering now. And I think that so far it looks good. You know, it's a worse product because we're involved. But I do think that it adds like a dynamic layer that hopefully will be cool moving forward. And the second layer to it is I remember when I would spend like three weeks to a month on a feature story. I couldn't sleep the night before. I was like up at like 3 a.m.

3:45Robert Mays: waiting for it to get published and wondering if there'd be some sort of typo in it or whatever. The idea of expanding that to like times 12, I truly can't imagine what the anxiety that goes into that sort of process is. So you are a much sturdier man than I. It's a reminder. I need to go buy my wife some flowers. because yeah it's maybe maybe not the most easy person to live with the last two weeks putting this thing to bed but um yeah no so far um i you know there's always going to be little things here and there you have to make peace with that but for the most part um you know a lot of great feedback which has been awesome my experience with the beast every year is going down to like player 22 at whatever position and it's still like a full-sized report i always i always forget how deep it goes before the full-time reports actually stop.

4:39It's crazy. I'm waiting for someone to debate my 47th long snapper with me. I feel like that's coming.

4:46Robert Mays: I will say this. I think that there's been a lot of phenomenal work in the draft space, and it's only gotten better as there has been more of it. There's so many people putting a ton of work into studying these players, putting out their own versions of big boards and of sortable big boards, and there's a lot of great work out there. And as I really dig into the draft space in the month that I do, I really appreciate how much stuff is out there to kind of bounce your own thoughts off. The difference in what you're getting here is the depth and the breadth of what it is. When you get down to edge rusher eight on somebody else's rankings, you go from having 12 bullet points per strength and weakness to two or three.

5:24Robert Mays: Not in this guy's thing. Not in this document. And so it truly does stand alone in a very crowded space and in a space that involves a lot of fantastic work over the course of the spring. So if you are listening to this show and don't have an athletic subscription to check out the beast, that'd be surprising to me. But now is the day to go subscribe to The Athletic to make sure that you can get your hands on this thing because it is a one of one product in a space that has a lot of good stuff right now. Thank you, guys. All right, let's dig into this. We're doing edge rusher superlatives today.

6:00Robert Mays: I really liked a lot of the categories that we came up with for our wide receiver show. And so we're just running a lot of those back for this edge class that Dana, I think in a lot of ways is kind of similar to the wide receiver class in that there are a lot of different kinds of flavors of players. As we look at guys who might be drafted in the first and second round, they're probably more top 10 picks on the edge than there were at receiver. But you look back at the receiver show we did and just the different types of guys. I think the one that really jumped out to me, Derek, was like Chris Brazel and Jeremy Bernard.

6:34Robert Mays: The idea that like both of those guys could be drafted on in the second round, similar in like where they might be drafted to one another. And we're just talking about two very, very different types of players. And this edge class is kind of similar to that like there aren't that many guys who check a lot of prototype boxes you either have these big long strong guys that maybe have some pass rush improvements that need to happen or we've got some undersized guys and we're wondering how they're going to shake out as three down players like there are a lot of guys on each end of the spectrum at the position kind of in the same way there was with the wide receiver group that we talked about there are and like we're going to talk about some of them but I think Dane you have like Malachi Lawrence and Gabe Jakis like 10 spots from each other on the board those two could not be any different as players and so that is exactly kind of what Robert is highlighting yeah I think that that's a good parallel the receivers with the edge rushers the two most well-represented player or positions in the top 100 most likely um and it's I enjoy listening to the pod you guys did on the receivers uh just all the different perspectives you were bringing.

7:42It wasn't about right or wrong. It was, oh, I kind of like this and I kind of like that. And just having these different opinions. And it's the same thing with these pass rushers. And I'm sure that'll bear out as we go through these guys throughout the pod.

7:55Robert Mays: You guys are going to be the ones getting stuck with the answers here. I'm mostly going to be playing point guard today, which you can call me a coward if you want, but I also just think it's a nice flow to the conversation. So let's start this discussion in the same place we started the wide receiver discussion. and that's with who your number one guy is among this group. And there are some years, same with the wide receivers, where that's not really an interesting conversation because there is a clear-cut number one guy. This year, I think there are some split opinions on who the best edge rusher is and who you would take if you were at the top of the draft.

8:24So, Dane, it's our first show together, by the way,

8:27Robert Mays: during draft coverage, so you are certainly first off here. You are number one up to the plate. Your number one edge rusher in this class is who? Thankfully, there's a resource that we can already know this. but I still want you to lay it out for me. Well, and our loyal listeners to Building the Beast won't be surprised, but Arvel Reese pretty clearly for me the top edge rusher in this class and my number one overall player. And he has been since October. And, look, I get it. There's risk involved here when he was used across the formation in that Ohio State defense. Matt Patricia kind of used him as a joker.

9:02Think about, you know, like the Jamie Collins role and different things where he stacked on one play and on the edge on some others. He's an A-gap blitzer the next play. I think some of his best reps were where he was that jam spy and the moment the quarterback is flushed, he's off to the races and you really feel that closing speed. But just focusing on what he does best. It's the burst, the explosive speed, the violence. I think with a lot of players like this, where you think about making them more of a full-time rusher, you worry about the physicality and can he hold up? And I just, I don't have those concerns with Reese because you can see it over and over on tape, how violent he is taking on blocks.

9:44He uses his length where he can disengage. He can set an edge. Just, I mean, every tape you want to put out there, I don't care. Pick a game. I'll find a play where he's setting a firm edge and spilling that production to his teammates. And so even though the box score scouts aren't going to love Arvel Reese, I just, I don't think I'm going to have to sell anybody on the talent here with Reese. It's more about the position and, you know, just how teams feel or how each evaluator feels about him being more of a full-time edge rusher and more of a stand-up linebacker. I think that's more where the disconnect comes.

10:21Robert Mays: So I want to ask you about this, Derek. The last two players that I feel like we had a similar sort of conversation to this about were Jalen Walker and Micah Parsons. And with Jalen Walker, I think it was he's going to be an edge rusher. And the Falcons immediately upon drafting him started developing the plan for what that would look like in year one. With Micah Parsons, I think it was a little bit more mixed, but I do think it was pretty clear to a lot of people heading into that draft. He does his best work moving forward. He would be best suited as an edge rusher in the NFL. And it took the Cowboys a little while to get there, but they eventually got there.

10:51Robert Mays: Derek, it feels like it's a little less clear cut with Arvel Reese. I think there are some people who look at what he has been as an off-ball linebacker and think the tape is so good that even if, in theory, it's a less valuable role for a player you're going to draft in the top five, his skill set and the way that he plays actually might be best suited to playing off the ball. And because you have a particular affinity for players at that position, I'm curious, like when you watch Reese, are you in Dane's camp where you think he does belong as an edge rusher? Or do you think that you could see him being an off-ball linebacker and that being his best deployment in the NFL?

11:27So I didn't name him as my best edge rusher because I kind of think he's like unicorn-ish where he kind of can do both. Like, I think if you're drafting him purely as an edge, top five pick. If you're drafting him purely as an off-ball linebacker, I still think he's like a top 10 pick. Like guys with his range, physicality, size, you just don't really find a whole lot of those guys. Like I think Jalen Walker is probably the best corollary because Parsons played on the line a little bit in college, but like mostly did play as like a stack backer, even if his best stuff was moving forward. Walker really was a hybrid player.

11:58I think he's stronger than Walker was. I think his pass rush repertoire is stronger than Walker. Like I think he's even his burst off the line is pretty special stuff. Like it's it's it's in like the Nick Benito, like Von Miller type of category. And so I have like minor concerns in the sense of 240 ish pound edge rushers. There just aren't that many of them. But kind of to Dane's point, he plays above that weight. And if he converts full time to edge, like could he add another 5, 10 pounds? He's a young player. Of course he could. And so I think that he could be a full time edge. But like selfishly, I would love to see him play stack backer.

12:32But I think he probably is a guy where you mostly use him as like a stand up edge player. And then every now and then, if you want to do some funky shit or have like weird pressure packages, all this stuff, he can just be a stack backer for you if you need him to.

12:46Robert Mays: Are we a little bit, I'm trying to figure out other like analog cases where this has gone well, where we say like, oh, you can use him in all this ways. And that does end up becoming a positive. I'm not trying to say that can't happen. I'm just wondering, is this one of those scenarios where we're sitting here imagining all the different ways he can be used? And in actuality, it's harder to actually put together a plan like that for a player and see it come to fruition than we make it out to be at this point in the calendar. Well, and I think, yeah, right. It's a guy like this is only limited by your defensive play caller, right?

13:21Like it's, but it's, it's a tall task to say, hey, here's this rookie. Now make your whole defense around him. And, um, but I, so not to step on best fits, cause we'll be talking about that a little bit later. But I've heard Aaron Glenn talk multiple times this offseason about how he wants he wants the defense to have more hybrid looks. And, you know, and that's it's interesting when you talk about it as an offseason topic. But it's obviously another thing when you actually implement it on on game day. And so I think it's absolutely fair to have some type of some level of concern about how exactly he's going to fit.

14:01Was what's the clear picture? Sure, obviously, when you draft a player, you'd love to have this obvious, clear picture. He's doing this. He's going to be our left tackle from day one. Sure, it'd be great to have that. But sometimes it's not that simple. And this is, I think, one of those cases. But I know I'd be willing to take that gamble where maybe some other people wouldn't.

14:23Robert Mays: It's funny because in Detroit, Derek Barnes was used kind of like this. like Aaron Glenn specifically has used these guys that have been kind of they've moonlighted as on ball players and have also played off ball linebacker and so that's one area where I actually do think you can kind of easily see what that role might be for a player like Arvel Reese one other example of this kind of Abdul Carter was an off ball linebacker his first two years at Penn State and then that third year they moved him to more of an edge rusher role and so at least we had that full year on tape where we could evaluate that.

14:55But I think if I just don't, I guess I just don't have a lot of concern about if Ohio State said, put your hand on the ground, and that's all you're going to do, Arvel Reese. I think there would be a lot less concern about him potentially making that move just because I think it's just, it's not hard to fathom him doing it.

15:16Robert Mays: All right, Derek, so your number one edge rusher in this class, non-unicorn category, guys that we are going to see and have seen with their hand on the ground is who. Yeah, again, I set him aside. He's the best player in the draft. But again, just he's whatever you want him to be. I picked Ruben Bain. To me, again, we talked about this a little bit on the Outliers show. The arm length is a little bit scary in theory, like on paper when you look at it. But then when you watch him play, he so easily gets into everybody's chest. The way that he defends the run, I think, is phenomenal. And we'll talk about that in a little bit.

15:49Some of the best run defenders, I think he's great at that. And he, to me, is I think what often separates a lot of the best pass rushers and guys that I want to take in the top 10 is like, how valuable are you on the plays where you're not getting sacks? And Reuben Bain is phenomenal. The answer is very for him. Yes, very. Like he is, even if he's not getting sacks, he's always pushing the tackle. And if you if you stunt him inside a guard, he can get push on that. He plays with a really high motor and he always like finishes plays. And so I just think he's one of those guys that finds a way to do something on every single play run and pass.

16:24And I value that pretty highly.

16:25Robert Mays: There's a couple of things I want to say. One about that show that we did, like sometimes like my role in all of this is to like stimulate conversation, like especially around the draft. Like I don't like hate Ruben Bain. I would I wouldn't like not touch Ruben Bain with like a 10 foot pole. I also hadn't watched a ton of him when we had that discussion. but when I went back and watched a lot more of him before we started doing the show I think there's some nuanced discussions to be had and I do want to have a couple of them but I think my biggest takeaway with him and if I were doing this it's why he'd be number one over a guy like David Bailey is that like I just think that's a guy on a good defense like he's just a guy you draft and like that's just a winning player on a good team like even if there are some limitations even if you can kind of go back and forth and hem and haul on a couple of the details I just think that he's somebody that will consistently contribute in so many different ways that you'll just feel really good about having him on your team and at a certain point like that's what the draft is about it's trying to acquire as many players as you can say that about i think that's absolutely fair i mean i think he's a i think you feel really good about his floor as an nfl player like that maybe some of the pass rush won't translate because of the arm length concerns and because he'll go be going up against much better offensive tackle play than what he faced in college.

17:44But at worst, I just feel really good about him. What he's going to give you down in, down out. I mean, they're watching him. See, it's always tough. I'm watching these guys in real time throughout the season. And so my opinion will kind of go up and down based from tape to tape where I wish I had the luxury of just going in at the end and kind of looking at key games. but like during the regular season there were games where you didn't notice Reuben Bain all that much um like he had four sacks during the regular season um it it wasn't really until the playoff where he really turned it on um and he had the Notre Dame game was awesome beginning the season and he had moments throughout the year I don't want to make it sound like he was invisible but it was more of a up and down player for me especially as a pass rusher but then what he did And the presence that he had during the college football playoffs, that stretch that led Miami to the national title game was unbelievable.

18:44And it was something that made you feel a lot better about including Reuben Bain as a top 10 player in this class and, you know, potentially, you know, top five player.

18:54Robert Mays: You said floor, Dane. And I think that's an important conversation here because even if we can concede and we think the floor is pretty high because he's giving you, he's contributing on so many different levels. I think there's a conversation to be had about the ceiling. And when you're taking a guy in the top 10, I think it's important to have that conversation, especially if it's a little bit earlier. So one of the things I was talking about with an NFL offensive lineman who had gone back and studied him was that his biggest thought and concern about the ceiling for a player like Ruben Bain wasn't actually the arm length.

19:23Robert Mays: That's not it's not what he went to. he said to me i'm not sure he can threaten the edge on me often enough for me to be really scared of him like i'm not sure he has that to like reach a high high level as a pass rusher and what he said was you see a lot of the power and the strength against the run but then when you watch him as a pass rusher there's a lot of like he's doing a lot of chops and like trying to get around like it's more finesse stuff as a pass rusher than you might think and he's very skilled at that stuff but the combination of that with maybe like a little lack of burst around the corner there was this person I was talking to was just like I just don't know if he's quite there when it comes to like the ceiling as a pass rusher and it really had nothing to do with the arm length it was some of the other things that he took away that left him with some questions that's honestly yeah that's kind of how I felt.

20:18And it was because he's, it's the longer the arms and longer tackles being able to get into him that that's part of it. But also, I think the long speed is mediocre. I don't think he's super bendy at the top of the arc. I think that he can get stuck at times when tackles are able to cut him off. But he is absolutely I think more skilled like he wants to win with his hands. He wants to win with his leverage, and he does that a lot. He has a very good understanding of how to leverage the point of attack and use that against blockers. But against the NFL tackles where they're pretty dang skilled and they understand how pass rushers want to beat them, I think it will be harder.

21:03And I think that's what I'm talking about when I say I feel – what made me feel better about Ruben Bain as a player and why he ended up as a top 10 player for me is I feel better about his floor. and it's interesting I've said this before but a lot not a lot but I know several teams that have him on the board on their board as a three technique where he can win quickly doesn't have to worry about trying to go around the edge he can use that power that leverage right away and attack gaps and win from different angles and I think it's an interesting because you can throw on the tape throw on the SMU tape throw and there's several examples where he wins as an inside player but I think that But that's less about he can't do this, can't do that.

21:43I think it's more about just strengthening the case for Reuben Bain, how useful he is, that no matter what, they're just going to find a way to use him on your defensive line. And I think that ceiling-wise is totally fair. And I will say I gravitate towards players that if I'm worried about you on rundowns as an edge rusher, I don't want to take you in the top 10. That just scares me. You should be able to play all three downs. So the fact that he clearly checks that box, I think is really valuable for me. But in terms of what you guys are saying, like, I feel like a lot of that stuff applies to like a George Karloftis, right?

22:16Where like he is powerful and the hands are good and he's a really good run defender, but like doesn't always quite have the juice to hit the corner the way that you want and stuff like that. And he's, that's still a really, really good edge rusher to have. It's not really a one. And it's why the Chiefs might also need a pass rusher in this class.

22:32Robert Mays: And it's a guy that got drafted in the 20s, right? And I think that's, it may, it's an interesting conversation. Derek did you have a comp that you really liked for for Bane um not really he reminded me a little bit of like the best that we've seen from like Marcus Golden at his peak um which I know is not like the sexiest comp I know a lot of people love the Brandon Graham comp which I think is a good one for like not really going to be a 10 plus sack guy for you consistently maybe but just like does shit on every single play that he's out there yeah that makes sense and I mean yeah the The name I wrote down, like, Melvin Ingram, Vinny Curry.

23:10Like, it's names like solid players, but he is a very unique player. And I think it speaks to kind of this draft where I started the conversation with Arvel Reese and how unique he is. And Reuben Bain's kind of in that same, you know, just if he's drafted in the first round at all, it'd be a historical outlier. You know, a guy with under 31-inch arms, a pass rusher under 31-inch arms, hasn't gone in the first round in the last 25 years. And so it's going to be unique regardless of when he comes off the board.

23:45Robert Mays: Melvin Ingram is a good one. I'm trying to remember, like, some of the nuances of Melvin Ingram's game and how they would compare it to a guy like Reuben Bain. I'm just remembering Melvin Ingram, like, lined up over guards and just, like, spin moving the shit out of people. It's just like this, like the image I have in my head of Melvin Ingram. But I'm a player I really liked when he was in the NFL. And so if he's Melvin Ingram, I think that's going to be OK. Does it bother you guys at all that he didn't there's no testing information? A little bit. Yeah. Right. Is that fair? Because I think if there's going to be questions about like what that initial explosiveness is, not having the testing information doesn't erase those questions.

24:23Robert Mays: Right. It only leads to more of them. I think it's fair. but it also seems like a lot of guys who think they're going to go top 10 now just like don't do anything uh which like maybe it's just that but maybe it is that he's a little bit worried that like maybe the three cone wouldn't look like what you want maybe the broad jump wouldn't look like what you want i still think that he's good but it is like mildly concerning i think the saving grace for for bane was uh talking to a scout who was at the pro day and as he was getting in his car um called me and we were talking about it he was blown away by the power of bane during the pro day and just how, uh, when you hit the bags or whatever, it just going through all these positional drills blowing away.

25:02And so he, he, at, in that moment, he said, I don't care that he didn't do anything. Um, but it's, it's also interesting that he, at the combine, he was 30, 30 and seven eighths inch arms. And at the pro day, he didn't even remeasure. Like he was, he was under 31 and he was like, you know what? I'm okay with that. Uh, like it wasn't that important for, even though sometimes we've seen the pro day length, you magically grow a half inch he wasn't interested in uh remeasuring at that point i think there's probably a couple other

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28:55Robert Mays: All right, two more that we did not have on the wide receiver show, shockingly. Best run defender. Just independent of what they're doing as a pass rusher, Derek, and obviously this is important to you, But the guy you feel like is best equipped to hold up on early downs among the edge players in this class is who? I think this was actually the hardest category for me to pick. There's a lot of really good ass kicking, like strong side defensive ends in this class. I think, I mean, a guy we just talked about, Reuben Bain, I think is in consideration for that. I think Keljick Falk out of Auburn is in consideration for that.

29:28I think you can make a case for like TJ Parker's best that Clemson could be that. I think my favorite is Zion Young from Missouri. that guy is just violent dude like when he's anytime he's got to squeeze a tight end or like a you know a slicer comes across the board he just like slams them anytime he's got to take on a guard I think he does the best job in the class of like hitting that inside shoulder spilling it and really getting color in the gap like he's just I think the violence that he plays with that is a warrior out there and if you are wanting a guy who is just like a hundred percent for you every single snap going to set the tone for your defense.

30:05That, to me, is the guy that you want.

30:07Robert Mays: We can step on it because I don't have answers for these, but we're going to do best fit a little bit later. Can you just imagine him on the Texans in the second round? Yes. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that a lot. And he kind of reminded me of Michael Clemens, like that style of where he's so physical, the full extension. And it's not even the physicality is awesome, but also the play recognition. Like that really shows up for him. And it's kind of like he knows he's not the most deceptive pass rusher. Like he doesn't have ideal cornering speed. Teams know or blockers know he's going to try and go right through them.

30:47But the reason you feel good about him as a player is because of what he brings on rundowns and his hand usage, the force that he plays with. He is your starting base end that you're probably going to find that late first, early second.

31:04Robert Mays: I just think that putting him in that environment in Houston with those two guys, one who's like one of the craftiest pass rushers we've ever seen, two, a guy that could have won defensive player of the year in Will Anderson in almost any other season, and really kind of added to his pass rush bag over his first couple seasons in the NFL, where the guy has the physicality, the mindset to fit with the rest of that defense, And now you're putting him in a spot where he can kind of grow at the right pace with two guys that I think can help him do that. I just I kept coming back to it where I was like, they've got those two second round picks.

31:34Robert Mays: Like it's just an easy one for me to imagine. There were a lot of guys where I was trying to figure out, like, you know, Houston needs a third rusher. And really to think about, you know, Daniil Hunter's getting a little bit older and it's not like he's going to be there forever. Like them getting a guy like him, it does make a lot of sense. I would be super into it. Who's your best run defender, Dane? So, I mean, I wrote down Reuben Bain, and I know we talked about him a lot already, but he's just so stout at the point. He's got those anvil-weighted hands, so he can stack, he can anchor, he can control.

32:06I do think it's fair to wonder how he'll do against tackles who are more adept at not just having 35-inch arms, but understanding how to use them. It'll be interesting how that works. But I think the key point with him too is it's not just the power. It's how quickly he sees things developing. He can dip. He can avoid. So it's not just power. He'll work around and crash down, make plays. And so he sees things happening really quickly, and that allows him to play fast. I mean, I think back there was a play on the first quarter of the pit tape where it's coaching tape in terms of him understanding what the – probably based off his pre-snap alignment, understanding what the offense is trying to do, avoid that initial block, crash down, make the tackle for a loss.

32:54And so, again, I think just talking about Reuben Bain's floor as a player, a large part of it for me is what he does in the run game.

33:03Robert Mays: The guy I throw out that Derek kind of alluded to it, but I just think watching him and what he's giving you in this area, I think it was a little bit surprising in some ways in a good way. Keldrick Falk is the length is hugely valuable in these moments, but you're talking about like recognition. I thought he was a better penetrator and disruptor for somebody with his physical skillset than I necessarily expected Keldrick Falk to be because he's incredibly long and you see him use that length, but there were a lot of plays enough plays where he's like knifing into the backfield. I think it was against Arkansas where it was like multiple plays in a row and like the same sequence where I was encouraged and a little bit surprised by a guy with that physical profile, bringing that to the table.

33:46I think for me, it's like his ability to get skinny and stay balanced through contact. It doesn't show up that much around the edge as a rusher, but when he's moving inside like that as a run defender, it's pretty phenomenal how well he can just get knocked and just get back on his feet and keep going. It's pretty cool.

34:04Robert Mays: That's because I think that, again, these guys with so much length, you want and expect them to be stout, but maybe not as disruptive. And he was more disruptive than I expected him to be. And so the fact that what he's bringing to the table, Keldrick Falk as a run defender is multifaceted in that way. I think there's a lot to like about it. He's really good at getting detached, like just not getting tied up too long. And you think about that scheme, it's a three man, mostly three down front where he was a four eye or a five technique. And so, you know, just you have to be quickly thinking what based off of what you're reading, the blockers what they're going to do and you had that first step can't be the wrong step and so i think that you know he made he took a big step this year in terms of his run defense and that was really i think more so than his pass rush becoming a better run defender was i think a big point of emphasis for him and i think a bared out on tape is keldrick fall can answer for either of you guys in any of the other categories uh go take a peek on that uh i have him as like a Maybe for one, but he's not my primary answer.

35:13Robert Mays: All right. So let's have the Kelter Fall conversation right now. Dane, where is he on your big board? I think 15 overall. Yes. 15. Okay. This is a player who per PFF had 20 pressures last year. This is one of those guys, and Dane and I were texting about this last night, where I just don't know what to do with it. I watch it, and this is one of those players where it makes so much sense that scouts and the league would value somebody with these sorts of traits and this sort of talent. He's 21, right? He's 20 or 21. He's 21. He's 21. I think his age, he said he was 20. People have him as 20, but he actually is 21.

35:58Robert Mays: Is that the way he is? He is 21, correct. Yes. So he's a little bit older than I thought. But still, young player, he has the frame, has the physical tools, doesn't have the production. And I was joking with Dane yesterday that this is the type of guy where he's going to go in the top 15. I'm going to be like, oh, man, should he go that high? There are going to be a couple years in the league where like, ah, just I wish there was a little bit more. And then by the end of the rookie contract, he gets$30 million a year. Like, I just know that, like, we're headed that way with Keldrick Falk. And I, we joked about this on the receiver show, Derek.

36:29Robert Mays: Like too often I go to the, is he good? Is Mike my number one scouting thing? And I know that's not correct. And I feel like that is best exhibited by the prospect of Keldrick Falk being a top 15 pick in this draft. It's a little bit like Trayvon Walker ish. Obviously Walker was a little bit bigger and like it kind of even freakier as an athlete, but it's like the scheme is kind of like Dane was saying. He's a lot of four. I it's a lot of five tech. He's probably not going to be doing as much to the NFL when you really unleash him as like a true like six technique strong side defensive end can he actually become a little bit more and I think that he can like I just the length is incredible the power like I'm I'm pretty into him so I don't have like as full of a big board as Dane but like taking him in the top 15 I think I think I would be comfortable with that and he had a 35 inch fur he ran a 4.6 in the 40 at 275 pounds.

37:22It just feels like, yeah, there's a lot more to this player than what the tape necessarily says. And a lot of that is because of the way he was used, you know, no fault of his own. So the character's off the charts too. He is one of the biggest leaders. He was one of the biggest leaders in that program. But I just think there's enough good things on tape that, and I'm going to step on best fits again, but you think about John Eric Sullivan spent the last 20 years in Green Bay. He learned under Ted Thompson, Brian Gutekinds. He majored in long athletic receivers, minored in those big edge rushers with athletic upside.

38:00Lucas Van Ness, Rashawn Gary didn't have big time stats, but they had big time traits. And Falk, I think is kind of in a similar bucket. And so at 11, you think about a team that's rebuilding in Miami. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's the pick there.

38:16Robert Mays: you picking a guy like Keldrick Falk instead of somebody like Makai Lemon at 11 for the Dolphins is the best thing that's happened to Derek all week. That's exactly what I want. Give it. Yeah. Give me the guy who like Keldrick Falk's arm probably like is as big as Makai Lemon. And so that's the exact kind of player that I want. But the last thing I'll say about Falk, again, we haven't seen that much of the pass rush in college, but he just build wise. And I think what he could be like, if everything really turns out, he feels a lot like Jason Pierre, Paul. Like if everything really, really turns out to be as good as you want, I think he could be like that style of player.

38:50Robert Mays: I'm fully willing to acknowledge that I might just have a blind spot for guys like this. And when you're saying Trayvon Walker's name, Derek, that's the exact timeline that I laid out. Like it's why I did it that way. And three years from now with cap inflation, that the$30 million will be the Trayvon Walker contract. And so that was not an accident. Next category here that I feel kind of is the mirror is like the puzzle piece one to best run defender. who is the guy that you want when it's third and seven it's third and seven there's two minutes and 18 seconds left in the game you're up five you need a guy who's going to close this thing out for you who is that player in this year's draft class dain who you got for me you know obviously it'd be arvel reese but for the sake of changing up here um i think david bailey um texas tech That's why I created the category was for David Bailey.

39:39I think I would love to have him screaming off the edge on third and medium. He's explosive off the snap. He has those long strides so he can win with speed, whether he's going right at you and testing the breaks of blockers or he's working the corner. He's not a finesse rusher. He has the hip and the core strength where it's not easy to knock him off his path. And the testing was awesome, obviously. The 40-yard dash, he had a 22.9 miles per hour at the combine. It was the fastest among all front seven defenders. And you look at the production, the sacks, tackles for loss. So him and Reuben Bailey, they finished one and two in the FBS in quarterback pressures last year.

40:25Bain having the edge. He had 83. Bailey had 81. Bain had 180, 180 more pass rush attempts. So the efficiency isn't even close between those two guys. And I think you can make a case about, okay, big 12 tackles versus ACC tackles, and we can get in all of that. But I just think with Bailey, that juice off the edge, I think it's easy to see why as early as the Jets at two, he's going to be considered.

40:53Robert Mays: So when I said we're going to talk about him probably a little bit later so we don't have to debate number one pass rushers, it was David. That's David Bailey is who I was talking about. Like, I think there's a real conversation. And, Dane, in your big board, you have David Bailey higher than Reuben Bain. And so the Reuben Bain-David Bailey discussion about who should be the number one, like, true edge player if we're moving Arbel Reese aside is a worthwhile conversation. And I get it. If you purely want, like, the pass rush juice, Bailey is the guy. Like, his first step is phenomenal. He's also long.

41:23Like, he is, to do another comp, like, I feel like if things really turn out for him, he's very, like, Brian Burns-ish. and I'm probably not quite that high on him. I think I'm a little bit lower on him overall as a player, but most of that is like the run defense stuff, which I've talked about and we can talk about a little bit, but on third and seven, that doesn't matter. They're not running the ball and that guy's going to get off the ball. And so he reminds me of like somewhere along that like Will McDonald, like Brian Burns style of just like to get off is really going to get on you and be like really scary on third and seven.

41:53So he feels like the obvious answer for this. I did have another one. our Mason Thomas out of Oklahoma like on the pure like just get off the ball pass rush he actually reminds me a lot of like Jonathan Cooper for the Broncos where it's a lot of pure get off he's a little bit smaller but man on third and seven you really don't want to see that guy ask Will Campbell I mean that's the first time where I really noticed our Mason Thomas was the 2024 tape but Will Campbell gave up two sacks as a three-year starter at LSU one of them was our Mason Thomas he he struggled with him that's a good call David Bailey I did David Bailey is one

42:27Robert Mays: of my beast breakdowns for the videos that we were doing and everything you guys said that is exactly how I felt walking away after watching him I think that the burst is incredible and I just love I mean some of the counters like the the inside spin that he has when people take that edge away is like very smooth it's very natural he goes to it really often and what I said was he's more powerful than strong like in a phone booth I think he's not necessarily the strongest player but because he's so explosive you see some of the power when he has a little bit of a runway and Derek I get the run defense stuff I guess what I'd say is his ability to hold up on the edge is a worthwhile concern I would say just based on how he's built but his effort against the run and his like willingness to play down the line of scrimmage like he does give a shit so there might be some physical concerns but like he definitely wants to chip in as a run defender and he's disruptive as a run defender he had 19 and a half tfls last year so it's not like he's not giving you anything there i think there are just maybe some questions about the ceiling for him in every scenario as a run defender right it's not for not trying he does give a shit and like that's that to me is like a double-edged sword too because like it's obviously great that he has a high motor and he will get into the backfield every now and then because he can knife and cut the way that like Von Miller again Brian Burns like those guys can do it it does worry me a little bit though that like he clearly does try so hard and still gets moved off the ball as much as he does but again that is again that's a conversation for edge one not for like who do I want when it's a clear pass rush down and that's something I think teams are encouraged by the step that he took this year because at Stanford he wasn't even a full-time starter he was more of a sub package guy because they didn't really trust him on rundowns.

44:16He was more of a one trick pony. Let's bring you in on passing downs and let you just tee off. Where at Texas Tech, they asked him to be an every down player. And he, I think, not impressed, but he was better than I think a lot of people thought. And I think so that gives you a little bit of optimism that he's headed in the right direction in terms of not being a plus run defender, but being a serviceable run defender. And I think there's some optimism there.

44:44Robert Mays: Let's remove Arvel Reese from the equation. Do you think it is fair to say, Dane, that David Bailey has the highest ceiling of any pass rusher in this class? That is why he has the edge over Bane for me is because I, in a top 10, I'll give the edge to the guy that has the pass rush juice and the higher ceiling, in my opinion. All right, let's move a little bit further down the draft boards here. We did this for receivers. Let's do it for edge rushers. Derek, your favorite day to pick in this draft is who? And I know this is a little bit tough because there are a lot of guys on the one, two border that might be first round pick.

45:21Robert Mays: So we can have a little bit of wiggle room here as we discuss these guys, but who is your favorite potential day to pick among this crop of guys? Yeah, I tried to pick guys that were like clearly out of the top 40 on either Dane's board consensus board, whatever I was looking, all that stuff. I really like the other Auburn pass rusher, Karon Crawford. Like he just, he's a guy who just does stuff. Like every single snap, like the effort is really good. I think as a run defender, he's really good. The burst off the snap actually kind of like grew on me the more I watched him. Like I felt like the first few drives, I was like, okay, he can move, but it wasn't that insane.

45:59And then the more you watch him, it's like, no, he's pretty explosive for a guy who's like 255 pounds. So he, to me is like, I don't think you're taking a swing on a guy who might be your number one rusher, but this does feel like a guy that you could take it pick, you know, 50 something. And he ends up being like a really, really good number two for you for a long time. So I liked him. And then one that I'm, Dane, I would like to hear your thoughts on this player. Cause I think he's a little bit weird for me to get a handle on, uh, Danny Dennis Sutton from Penn state. If you look at the profile, it's, it's like crystal clean, like four year contributor, pretty good production tested just off the charts, in the jumps, three cone, all that stuff.

46:39And then you watch him and he kind of just exists. Like he's kind of just out there. And I just don't really know what to do with him as a player. But like in the third round, that's like the type of swing you should be taking on a guy who's like that good of an athlete. Yeah, no, I mean, you're reading off my notes. I mean, I think with Dennis Sutton, like he's my 60th best player, I think. And that's right around the range. I think he'll go late second, maybe early third. it's for a guy that you wanted to take over games he just never did he you know he flashed here and there but you like the motor you like how big he is how long he is you like the athlete he's got toughness like there's a lot of things where he checks the box but it's the sum he's not yet the sum of his parts and I don't know if he ever will be like you said he's a four-year contributor he's been doing this a while.

47:29I'm not sure how much upside left there is, but I just feel good about you adding this guy to your defensive line rotation. And he's not very deceptive, but he's very active with his hands. He's very aggressive. He'll mix up his attack, solid anchor in the run game. And so I just think he's a solid addition. And in the late second round, early third round, that's kind of exactly what you're looking for. And so I think that makes sense with Dennis Sutton And not to step on a future category we have, but personal favorite pet cat, Kieran Crawford was my pick.

48:04Robert Mays: I knew you loved him. I was wondering when that was going to come up. We're on the same page there. I think you tuned in the Auburn's defensive line to watch Falk, and then you left kind of like, oh, who's this guy? There's something here because he's 6 '4 1⁄2", 255 pounds. Another guy where, unfortunately, we don't have the testing information. But when they let him rush, explosive off the snap, nonstop effort. I just I think he's going to be a solid late second type of option. And so I'm with you there. It's a good shout. The other name I wrote down for this category was Gabe Akis from Illinois.

48:41Just rocked up, athletic, quick off the ball, doesn't need a long runway to get going. He's got that wrestling background. So, you know, he's really good hand to hand combat. and I think you know he was bothered by this hamstring injury and so didn't work out at the combine um had a late pro day and so I think that's why maybe he's been relatively quiet the last two months or people haven't been talking about him a lot but I talked to two scouts that were at his personal pro day which was April 2nd like one of the last things before I put the beast to bed and they both gave me two thumbs way up just he only did the 40 but the 10 yard split was 159.

49:19He looked really good during his workout. And so this is a player that jumped out as a freshman. And then he just built off of that, got better every single year. So I really like Gabe Ackes in that mid-second round area. I really liked Gabe Ackes too. He's like my kind of player. The first note I had on him, the Ohio State game was one of the first games I watched. My first note in here is power in his hands holy f like he just when he shoots into your chest with those mitts he just it's incredibly powerful the lower body strength is really good so again this feels like a class where once you get past arville reese and david bailey at the top guys who i think are more like weak side ends like pass rusher types there are so many just like four like three four hands in the dirt uh strong side defensive ends in this class and acus is absolutely one of them

50:11Robert Mays: Where do you think his limitations are, Gabe Akustain? The reason he's a second or third round fringe guy with some of the strengths that you're talking about, where do you think the limitations are with him? I think that in terms of building out a cohesive pass rush, it could be a little inconsistent at times. Patching together the moves. If he doesn't win with that first move, what's plan B? What's the counters? As a run defender, I wish the run instincts were a little bit better. There are times where he can be, for a guy that, because I agree with Derek, he has power in his hands, but you watch some reps and he's moved from a spot or he gets tangled up with long blockers.

50:54And so I think that just areas like that where it's just you wish you were a little bit better, that's why I think we're talking about him as a mid-second and not a late first, but he's still a pretty good player. He's not as like confident and consistent in that stuff as like Zion Young, Ruben Bain, those guys and stuff. So it's like, in theory, his best stuff looks like that. But that's a good point, Dane, that like his the eyes and the confidence in what he's seeing is a little bit slower than some of those guys.

51:20Robert Mays: And this is Gabe Akis from Illinois. I want to make sure we're just continually like revisiting the names over and over if an hour and 10 minute long podcast. All right. We're going to take one more quick break and then come back and chat through a couple more of these categories.

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53:11Robert Mays: The biggest risk reward edge player in this class for you, Dane Brugler, is who? So more times than not, I fall in the camp of just draft a good player. All right. Like that's it's a page out of your book, Robert. And I think Akeem Mezador is going to be a good player. I've said this a bunch. I think fans care way more about age than NFL teams do. But when you have a player with medical history and he had his best season as a 24-year-old at the college level, he turned 25 this week and zero testing information. You have to have some level of skepticism with Akeem Mesidor. And I think that the level of skepticism is going to be different for everyone, but there has to be some level.

53:57And so I went back. I did some homework. the last 10 years there has been exactly one player drafted in the top 50 who was over 25 years old any guesses happened last year an edge player no every any position over 25 i i don't know i feel like i should know it and i don't Tyler Shuck. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only player drafted the last 10 years in the top 50 who was over 24 years old. And really the only thing close to that in the first round was Garrett Bowles. He was almost 25 when he was drafted. He was a religious mission guy out of high school and Juco before he went to Utah. So there's not really a track record of 25-year-olds being taken in the first round.

54:51And I went and looked back at edge rushers, and I think the closest comparison in terms of just the age was Byron Young. He had just turned 25 when he was drafted, but the Rams took him 77th overall. Yeah. That's a big difference.

55:06Robert Mays: Wasn't Marcus Hunt old too? Yeah, now we're going way back. Way back in the day, yeah. Remember, there's a couple other edge rushers that were 25-year-old prospects, but it does not happen very often. Right. But the asking price, because Marcus Hunt was a late second. Like it's late second. Yes. Yeah. So it's like, okay, the, the asking price is a big part of this where Mesidor and like, I finished a little bit lower on Mesidor and my, like, he's still my number five pass rusher, but I have him at like 27 overall, 28 overall, something like that. And so others might be a little more encouraged by just draft a good football player and take them in the top 15, top 20.

55:45And I would understand it, but there's risk involved there.

55:47Robert Mays: this is an interesting discussion because i think there's a couple different layers to it as a prospect like the age and the price i think creates some risk but his play style derrick almost feels like i think he's going to be able to contribute as a player but in but that the discussion to me is like i almost think about it the same way i thought about like nick scorton right where i watch nick scorton i'm just like that guy will be able to play in the nfl but at 51 that you're fine you're fine kind of having that be the gambit if you're having to take that guy in the top 20 maybe there is more risk reward even if his play style feels like he can be a safe contributor it's in some way in the league right and like even like scorton was like younger and it's still 21 exactly like that might probably makes you feel better about certain stuff i actually think byron young is like a good like point to put him up against and again byron young is a good player like that's a really good like lower end number two like a really good contributor off the bench if you want to like depending on how deep your room is um gives you something in the run game like really powerful player i think mesador can do a lot of that similar stuff but again that a player like that goes like probably 60th 70th in a lot of other classes whereas like this one because of kind of the way that it is obviously miami having a lot of um being in the spotlight this year them going to the national championship i think helps him a little bit and And so I'm probably in the same boat, though, like if I had fleshed out my biggest risk reward to like two or three players, I Mesidor would have been in there for me as well.

57:18Robert Mays: So worry you that a lot of his wins either come when he's lined up inside or are on inside moves like a majority of his big moments from what I saw come from those two buckets, Mesidor. It's and it's like, again, if I'm drafting that at 65th, not a problem at all. If I'm drafting that at 20, it's like I'm a little bit worried that that's what all your best reps look like. Because those are the reps. Those are the wins of a role player. Right. And again, if you draft that in the high third round, late second, you're totally OK with that. At 20, I don't know. He's a tough player because there's a lot to like on his tape.

57:56He's the way he plays. I mean, a lot of the things we said about Bain and the tenacity and the motor that carries over to Mesidor as well. But again, just all these red flags. I know some people have been talking about him as early as 12 to the Cowboys, 15 to the Bucs. It feels rich at that point. And if they went that direction, it might work out. He might turn out to be a solid player. I just think that there is more risk involved here than simply waving it away and saying he's a good player. biggest risk reward for you Derek in this class is who uh mine and I I'm also going to mention this player in a category we have a little bit later Malachi Lawrence from UCF is like the first step and the explosiveness and the length is like holy shit like you totally see how somebody can just be like that's a Ferrari I want to buy that but I look at him and he's like he's a guy who's you know closer to that 250 range where he's a little bit lighter and he just doesn't bend the way that those guys typically do or that you would typically want.

59:05And then I think in the run game, he just doesn't really give you a whole lot. And so like, there's a chance that he is just like an absolute superstar pass rusher for you. Like the get off really just can get you to a dozen sacks and in the right universe. I think there's also a world where it's just like, he kind of has to be your third guy off the bench and that's it. And I think if you're taking that again, if you're taking that at 70, you don't really care if that's like the gambit that you're making. But if you're taking that at like 30, potentially, you know, if the Dolphins, if they want to bump up their room, I think that's a little bit scary.

59:36Robert Mays: That's doesn't surprise you that I find him intoxicating the 40 inch vertical, the one, five, seven, 10 yards split. Um, yeah. And I, I agree with, with Derek, if you're one, a super bendy pass rusher, this isn't your guy, but I think if you're looking for that initial burst and that ability to, uh, you know, really test the corner and threaten the quarterback. Yeah, but he didn't even have the most sacks he had in college. I think it was seven in a single season. So it's not like he was super productive where it's just overwhelming. Like you're going to trust that. So I totally get that. I think he finished what like 36 or something like that on my board.

1:00:16So like just outside the first round where, yeah, I'm with you. Like there's enough of that whiff of it's intoxicating where I want that on my team, but still enough doubt where I just couldn't get firmly in the first round with him.

1:00:31Robert Mays: There's a lot of guys, like if you look at that range outside of Mesodor, I'm looking at your rankings of edge rushers, Dane, and like TJ Parker, Zion Young, and then like those types of players where there just is not as much juice to those guys as somebody like Lawrence has, or you have the guys like Cassius Howell who are all juice. And so for Lawrence, it was just one of those things where there's a little bit more like oomph to him along with the pass rush pop that he's giving you and i just think that combination there's aren't that many guys deeper into the draft that give you that and i think if it connects there's just something really really exciting about that even if like derrick said the chances of that happening are lower than you want like you said at the top all these different flavors right it's the same thing with the receivers uh you know we talk about uh Malachi Fields and Makai Lemon in the same conversation when they're just completely different players, right?

1:01:26And it's the same thing with these pass rushers. These guys offer different things, and Lawrence certainly one of them. I mean, I mentioned how he didn't have a ton of sack production. He didn't have a ton of tackle production either. He never had more than 30 tackles in a single season in college. And so it's just, there's a lot to like about the traits and the talent and the ability, but how does that translate to being a NFL starter or does it? I think that's a question that every team, depending on what they need and their scheme, their answers are going to be a little different.

1:01:57Robert Mays: All right. Let's get to the guys you do like. Dan, you had mentioned Crawford here as your personal favorite pet cat. We'll ask if you have one more here. So we'll go with Derek. Your personal favorite guy slash pet cat in this draft class among the Edrushers is who? I adore TJ Parker. I just think that he's going to be so much better than like some of the tape looked at the end of 2020 or like in the middle of 2025. obviously a lot of like Clemson fell off and there's been a lot of talk about that but I just a guy who is like that size where he's like 6 '3 265 really stout against the run a lot of power in his hands um and that shows up as a pass rusher and I also think he's not like the bendiest guy but for a guy who is his size I actually think there is a little bit of bend and flexibility there like I not to keep doing the comps game but like I think there's a world where like he kind of ends up being like Bradley Chubb, where he can be that like a really strong power rusher who has enough bend to really make the most of a skill set like that.

1:02:54So I just think that he's better than than, you know, a lot of stuff looked at Clemson last year. And he's still a young player. Like this is a guy who I think can continue to grow, continue to be better. So I think like he's a three down contributor right away and then still has a little bit to him to like, you know, this is also the style of player I love. Like I loved Michael Williams last year, and I think a very similar style of player, but I just, I think really Parker could be like a total stud. A theme of building the beast this year was just how Clemson was just such a disappointment.

1:03:24And they have so many guys in my top 100 and yet it just, you didn't feel it week in, week out. And I mean, Parker was part of that, but there are a lot of things to like about what he offers. And one of the things is the motor. I mean, looking at, so the South Carolina game was like the final regular season game. And, you know, you're only playing for so much. And his motor is just cranked the entire game. At one point, he recovered a fumble that was 30 yards down the field on that tape. It's like, what defensive end is doing that? And so the effort, the hustle, it's outstanding with this player.

1:04:00I wish there was more to his pass rush plan in terms of unlocking counters and understanding, okay, I'm going to show him this and then set up this and just working through that process. I think that's where he needs to kind of take that next step. But there's definitely a lot to like about him. And even though I, like coming into the year, he was like my number nine overall player, like just loved what I saw on the sophomore tape. And then this year kind of took a little bit of a step back. I still couldn't drop him too far where I'm going to drop him all the way out of the first round. And I still think he's a first round type of player.

1:04:39Robert Mays: What do you do with guys like that, like TJ Parker, Dan, where you've seen them play at a certain level? And even if there was an improvement off of that, how do you weigh that kind of stuff when the final season is sort of a step back from what you had seen before? Because they've shown you that they're capable of reaching that level. So I just assume that's really hard to work through. It is. And I think there's reasons and there's excuses. And that's where you have to try and figure it out, where am I making an excuse for this guy because I saw him do it last year in 2024, and so I'm just clinging to that?

1:05:16You know, like this could be a Garrett Nussmeyer conversation, right? But I think with – and really the other Clemson defensive lineman in this draft who there's a lot of debate over is Peter Woods, who coming into the year was like my number one player. I loved what he put on last year's film. This year, not even close. And so I feel more encouraged by Parker because the effort was still there. In terms of just the way he played, the play style was exactly what I saw in the past. The production and the results weren't always there. But I'm encouraged by the effort level and the play style being so similar.

1:05:57So every case is so different that it's tough. And you just, like I said, you have to try to separate the reasons from excuses.

1:06:06Robert Mays: and it's just not always easy let's get to our last couple here someone you are out at among these edge rushers at their expected cost derek is who um i have like a few kind of it like every level of the draft all the small guys it's a lot of the small guys like i think david bailey where he's gonna go again i think he's a really good player but he to me is closer to like what will mcdonald is and that for me i just don't know if i want to take that like top eight again like good player can get you double digit sacks I just don't know if I can get there um Akeem Mesidor who we've talked about a little bit I think if you're gonna take him in the 20s or like Dane said as high as like 15 that's a little bit rich for me and then a guy I already mentioned as biggest risk biggest reward is Malachi Lawrence like he to me that's like I'm probably not touching him until like the early third round but again I get how somebody's gonna be intoxicated by how quickly he gets on you know on the corner on a lot of tackles how do you feel about Cassius Howell Dirk That's my answer, by the way.

1:07:06Yeah, like, kind of, like, and I get it. Like, I think there is a little bit more bend and lower body strength and, like, hand usage to him than a guy like Lawrence. But then you have to be worried about, like, okay, well, is that going to fly when you're 250 pounds and have the shortest arms basically ever? Like, it's even a different conversation than Bane because Bane is so, like, there's so much firepower when he, like, shoots those elbows and, like, gets his hand into your chest. That's just not really the case with Howell. And so I probably like him a little bit more than Lawrence, but like even in the best world, Cassius Howell is probably like Bryce Huff.

1:07:42Robert Mays: So why are you out on Cassius Howell at expected cost, then why is he your guy? Well, and I like Howell, but I like him as more of a early to mid-second round pick, someone I want to round pick 40, as opposed to someone that's probably going to go, I wouldn't even say probably, but might go in a top 25. And I think there's a path where he could become Hassan Redick. Like, I think there is a realistic path for him where that is possible. But I think there's also just as likely a path where he is a designated pass rusher. And that's kind of it. So I see the juice off the edge. There's hip flexibility.

1:08:21There's aggressiveness with his hands. But if he doesn't win high side, I think he can struggle to find plan B. And in the run game, there are just too many examples where he gets swallowed up, sealed, and with his arms being just over 30 inches. It's just, but it's not even that. It's just, or not only that, it's also the lack of instincts. I think that shows up as well in the run game, not just a physical tools issue. So I like Howell, and I've liked him throughout the process, but I've always liked him as more of that second round type of player as opposed to someone that seems like he has a good chance of going to the top 25.

1:08:57All right.

1:08:58Robert Mays: Best fit. We've had a couple of these that we've talked about, but any others that you guys want to throw out there? Best fit for this edge rushing group? I'll throw out a few uh a few quick ones Ruben Bain to the Bengals like they just need ass kickers on that defense and that is exactly what Ruben Bain is uh I think TJ Parker to the Ravens actually makes a lot of sense like I think 14 might be high for a lot of people but again I love him and I think this is the style of rusher that that organization and Jesse Minter's style of defense have typically been very very good with and so I think that he could fit there and then the last one Robert you mentioned the Texans earlier for Zion Young and I do love that now that you said it I went a little bit more like immediate pass rush juice like a guy who will be our a really good off the bench today for us type of guy our Mason Thomas being able to just like be your sub rusher I think on like third downs is like I'm pretty excited about what that would look like so that's a little bit it's a little bit more of like a greedy pick than someone like Zion Young who I think has a little bit more like runway can be more useful for you on three downs all that stuff But I think it could be fun.

1:10:00Robert Mays: Zion Young is a much more like have eat your vegetables sort of pick for the Texans in the second round. So one that I would like to see, and they brought him in for a visit, the Cowboys with Arvel Reese. So you think about Christian Parker, and I think just piecing things together about what he's going to do in Dallas, it sounds like he really values hybrid defenders that gives them options. It really forces quarterbacks to see things, one thing pre-snap and another thing post-snap. And I just think that Parker, he wants to die on his defense. And so I won't be surprised at all. We've been talking about this all year with Dallas trading up at some point.

1:10:39If, you know, Sonny Stiles, Caleb Downs, maybe Arvel Reese if he were to fall. I wrote down Seahawks with Gabe Ackes. I think that fits them with kind of what they want. I mean, pick 32, make it happen. Buffalo, Malachi Lawrence, I think that fits with kind of—

1:11:01Robert Mays: I really like that. I really like that. They've been missing a guy like that. I mean, obviously, again, even taking the risk into account, Malachi Lawrence to the Bells, I actually really do like that a lot. I think it's on the table in the late first round for Buffalo. That's a potential way they could go. Where we think—what's Dallas' aiming point? in that top 10? Is it three to Arizona? I think it's six and to see who falls. You know, you're probably going to miss out on Reese and, and Bailey in that scenario, but there's a good chance. Or maybe you take the guy that the giants don't. If the giants go Caleb downs at five, trade up to six with the Browns.

1:11:39And the only thing we know in the first round or Mendoza's going one, the Browns are going to try like hell to get out of six. So that's, if that's how it works out, go up to six, get Sonny styles, trade 12 and 20 for 6 and 39 make it happen all right that is all we've got for today a very

1:12:00Robert Mays: intriguing edge rushing group looking forward to how this is all going to unfold on draft day now that dane is back with us might as well start talking about it we will be live on nights one and two of the nfl draft live from our studio in chicago being bringing back our guy bruce Feldman for that show, who is going to be with us tomorrow on the podcast. So we're running back the same crew as last year. We are very much looking forward to it. So be on the lookout for that. Put it on your calendars. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in.

1:12:35Robert Mays: Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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