Eleven lessons we learned from last seasons best offenses

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1:28Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. We got a good one on tap for you guys today. Our old buddy Nate Tice is here to talk about some lessons that we learned while re-watching the best offenses in the NFL from 2025. I always like doing these shows in the offseason just as a way to kind of do an audit about what the best offensive football looked like in the NFL from the previous season. There's not a lot of guardrails to this. Me, Derek, and Nate just kind of unleashed ourselves rewatching the best offenses in football last year and came back with a bunch of thoughts about the things that tie those offenses together.

2:03Robert Mays: What are the things you consistently see? What are the things that maybe other teams can take from this? We have, you know, 10 or so main points that we hit. But the coolest part of this discussion is none of these things happen in isolation or in a vacuum. They're all connected to one of the other points that one of us was making. And so it's a cool conversation. I think it kind of builds on itself. All of these things feed into one another. And, you know, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening on offense in the league right now. And we tried to hit as much of it as we could today. So me, Derek Klassen, Nate Tice, lessons learned from the best offenses in football last year.

2:39Robert Mays: Let's get to it right now.

2:50Robert Mays: We're looking forward to this one. This one's been circled on the calendar for quite a while. We've done a version of this show many times in the past. And when we were really hitting it hard is when there was a certain co-host on the other side of these conversations. And so if we were going to bring back this show, we were going to bring back that man. So joining us today to help me and Derek dig into the lessons that we learned rewatching the best offenses from 2025. It is our old friend from Yahoo Sports and the Football 301 podcast, Nate Tice. Nate, how you doing, buddy? Doing very well. I'm very, very thrilled to be learning some lessons again with you, especially offense.

3:31We learned so many lessons. Thank you for having me on for offense and side of the ball as well, which is definitely fun. But no, I have some inklings of where this conversation is going to go, which I'm very excited about. But also, no matter what we're going to talk about, I'm excited to join you, Robert, and of course you, Derek, too, as well. So this is going to be a great show. Happy to be back.

3:50Robert Mays: Super open-ended. I mean, really, there was not a lot of direction here. It was go unleash yourself on the tape of what you consider the best and most influential offenses in the league from last year. Come back to me with three or four thoughts. And so this, I'm assuming, is going to go in a bunch of different directions. Probably going to have, let's say, 10 to a dozen of these by the time we're done. But I think I'm sure there'll be some through lines, but I guarantee you that we all took this in slightly different directions. Nate, you are the guest. So we're letting you kick this off. Your first lesson that you learned rewatching last year's best offenses is what?

4:24Well, first off, how many tabs did you guys have open at one point? That's a terrible question for me.

4:29Robert Mays: The answer is 10 ,000 all the time. sounding like it's about to explode uh amount of tabs open at one point so i just had to ask that because i have like nine open right now which is kind of max for a stream it's always fun when the ngs filters laugh at me yeah i see them like they don't know what you're asking yeah they just they just refuse to work like it's like there are too many things that you're asking this machine to do at the same time we're done here we're quitting on you so there was a lot of that today that's Or every now and then with the filters, you try to dig so deep and then you realize it's like a quarterback has only attempted seven such passes.

5:05It's like, I don't really know how much I can actually dig from that, but you try to go down such a far rabbit hole with some of these things. Yeah, I've outfiltered. I've overfiltered a little too much sometimes. That's actually one of my first examples of being a GA grad assistant for Joe Rudolph at Pitt was he asked us to come up with this super hyper-specific filter for when he was doing opponent scouting. and he came up with like three plays over eight weeks and he's like guys there's got to be more than that or like well when it's like seven filters in on first down only it's gonna come out of that but it's something i always remember as jay but anyways my first point i i i digress well i know we're gonna probably talk about some somewhat of explosives but was i was doing actually looking at the colts uh recently and this may be kind of just start kind of like piqued my interest um the Colts yeah were a maybe half season wonders last year but it was a one it was a wonderful offense to watch it really was and when it was really clicking but there's other examples from what I'm going to talk about is talk about explosives we talk about multi-tight ends is hip formations or wing formations I think is a lesson that kind of came to is the formations you can kind of create out of these multi-tight end looks and the Colts were just one because I was looking at how can Josh Downs and Al Pierce get on the field but that actually led to what my example like why that's actually key and kind of a key to the moment is that it opens up personnel as long as you have a nice blocking tight end to do it but it opens up the run game it opens up the motion game it opens up the play action game it opens up the deep passing game and you know the Colts doing it was Steichen you know he's a Norv Turner guy these are Norv Turner classic formations but I just looked on next gen stats and they have two tight end looks Twin tight ends, they call it.

6:48And the top 10 teams that passed out of two twin tight ends last year. So just raw amount. I wish I had the rate number, but I'm, you know, it's me. So, all right. They also don't give you that. That's okay. You don't do a lot of work. Just for twin tight ends, they don't. I want people to know that. Yes. Every other formation they do, except for twin tight ends. I'm going to talk to you, Keegan Abdu. We're going to talk. But, all right. Colts, second. Rams, third. Packers, fourth. 49ers, sixth. Seahawks, seventh. Bills, eighth. Bears, ninth. some of the most explosive offenses in the game, and it's because what they can create and why, you know, there's more examples with this, but those two tight end looks, they open up formations and open up the menu.

7:28Really, that's the best way to look at it, especially on early downs, on first and second downs. So that's where I'm going to start with is twin tight ends, hip formations, slot formations is maybe the best way to put it.

7:38Robert Mays: A little bit about how it frees up the receivers. Like how does it change the role of the receivers in some of those looks if you can stack those two receivers on the other? side. Yeah. So yeah, basic parlance is like if you went to a formation called hip right or wing right, the Z receiver is going to follow the right, the tight end side. That's where the Y tight end goes is to the right. The Z wide receiver goes to the right as well. The X goes opposite side. Then when you say slot, which is what these formations are referring to in some senses, is that that Z receiver ends up going into the slot on the opposite side.

8:14So two tight ends are on one side and two receivers on the other side. And what it does is one, it gives you a nice kind of coverage tell at times. It limits the coverages you can get, but also gives you a nice clean indicators, two receivers here, two tight ends here, kind of no body types you're going to get. But a guy like for the Colts instance, Josh Downs, who might be more slot only or best from the slot, you now can create a slot position out of two receiver sets. And so that kind of frees up in the entire menu of, hey, this guy's best on those choice routes or whatever, whatever have He's not great blocking at the point of attack.

8:46We like him best where he can kind of be off ball. We can motion to formations. That's the best way you can maybe open up body types for different positions. And also you can motion to tight end and create nub formations, which the Colts did as well. And then that can create two slot formation or slot people. You can go Tyler Warren and Downs as the two slot guys with Pierce on the outside now, like a one by three formation. So just opens up formational versatility. And also the best play action formation or protection uses two tight ends in unison, the kind of double team of defensive end. So it also opens up that formation to your menu as well, which the Rams get to.

9:22All these teams that I just highlighted, all those teams use that to create these explosive passes.

9:27Robert Mays: It's funny because my last one was going to be tied to this, and I'll probably go with that one next instead. But the other thing with when you're doing either those wing formations or a nub formation, the Seahawks would do this a ton, where JSN would be in the slot on the other side, and he would run crossing routes back all the way across. And if you're going to tighten down that left side, you're condensing how much space that you're, you're increasing the amount of space the defense then has to guard to the sideline. And so if you're going to run crossing routes back into that, you're not doing it into an ocean of space because the corner is now standing next to the linebacker on that side.

10:00Robert Mays: And so it just all the different ways that offenses use these. And it's funny that you started with this because the last one that I came to in my prep, that's tied to this is the best offenses in the league are using these multi tight end sets to add layers to the offense and you can categorize this and I would say two different ways that I did the first one is walking like the amount of things you can do in protection when you have multiple tight ends on the field and Seattle was my favorite team doing this last year and Seattle's not a top five offense but they were number three in the league per next gen and passing success rate like they were they and they did a ton of stuff that is worth stealing and when you go watch all of and I did this this morning every tight like play action completion out of heavy personnel from Seattle the amount of different variations in pass protection that they have with those multiple tight ends on the field is hilarious I mean it's Robbie Oots is uh lead blocking and then cutting back across and cutting the defensive end they've got a tight end going in motion immediately he's cutting the defensive end like it's you can do so many different things to add layers to your pass protection.

11:07Robert Mays: When you have multiple tight ends on the field, you just protect yourself so well. And I'm going to talk about play action later and how play action has changed. Play action didn't really change for the Seahawks. Their play action was still like block it up, toss it, baby. Like that's what we're doing. We're taking shots. And to do that, you have to protect it well. And they use those multiple tight ends, not just having them on the field, but the creative ways that you steal back angles and space because of them. They did that so incredibly well. And I think a lot of the Bears, Rams, teams that use multiple tight ends do this.

11:40Robert Mays: And the other thing that really jumped out to me, and I'm curious what you guys think about this, but the best comparison I can make when you're running a bunch of these multiple tight end looks on one side, or you're running a bunch of 13 personnel, it kind of reminds me of getting all of the, and we were talking about these guys as receivers. You're getting all the benefits of bunch formations, but defenses are not as experience defending them as they are all these bunches now and all of the receivers now in the bunch are credible blockers so you're defending what amounts to bunch formations but every single one of those guys in the bunch the multiple tight ends the fullback whoever can also block so just the layers of complexity you have to deal with as a defense with all of these guys who can release they can block they can cut across the formation to pass protect there's just so much complexity that you can create with all of these multiple tight end looks that defenses now have to deal with and like i mean you mentioned the bears do a really good job of i think in pass protection specifically like they they they would a lot of times like take if they have two guys to the same side they would like quick fast motion one across to um to the other side and then they would pull the other one around at the snap full slide the protection the other way and you've like completely wadded it up and i think that that consistently did a really good job of keeping caleb Williams is pretty clean you have two guys crossing the formation in a span of about two seconds one before the play one after the play and Seattle did a shitload of that too and and it's not even just that that like helps you shift the angles and pass protection and change the numbers and stuff like that those type of motions make it look like you're running counter or something like that and so I think counter especially like I remember when Cam Newton had his like 2015 season one of their big plays was like RPO counters and they would run counter and then RPO pass off of it because if you see a polar somewhere linebackers like I gotta go or I'm gonna get demolished and so when they see some of these like move H move tight ends moving in motion like that and it looks like it's about to be counter they're like I gotta step down and I gotta go and so you're wadding up their protection and then also that linebackers right on the line of scrimmage you can just throw over the top of his head pretty consistently and just all the the gaps changing for the defense like because if you pull a guy it changes but also if you just have a wing tight end you're just adding more gaps that they have to defend.

13:56And like I wrote about Colby Parkinson last week, and I found a 13 personnel example with the Rams where he's at the point of attacking each one. But they're playing the 49ers, and they don't commit another defender to the line of scrimmage. And so it's just like they steamroll on the outside because they have leverage and size. But also if you have to commit more bodies to the line of scrimmage as a defense, then that's less bodies that can do funky stuff on the back end. Yeah. And so you're kind of like you're just taking one little thing away from them you again you're just limiting their menu or limiting their funkiness and then that becomes the back and forth game of like how you want to use your personnel so uh no it's it's cool to see the through lines and and kind of see how teams are just trying to like they've gotten so much better at hiding the non-blocking tight end or the lesser blocking tight end and i mean so much better and i think it's kind of cool to just see it like oh we can actually do this with this guy and i think that's why these formations freed up yeah i mean you can motion the backfield like you mentioned both of you guys mentioned but use them as a lead blocker like it's like there and then if you get tight ends like tyler warren who can move and do a lot of things not great in line but can be a great adjuster as a kind of an off ball guy so there's some really cool things that you can do

15:05Robert Mays: formationally if you're creative enough when you look at some of these plays where you say you have two tight ends in one of those slot formations on the left side teams will do a lot of they'll use the inside tight end to block out on the defensive end and then the out the further most outside tight end will insert and he'll run around on those sorts of plays so again that's just like it's essentially a switch release but it's in the formation and so you're creating that that sort of those sorts of complexity just think about how hard those plays are from the time going back i don't know how long we've been talking about him nate like for years and years and years like chris godwin being the first guy was doing this inserting on duo in like 2020 and just think about how hard that is on a defense because you are making that guy a credible blocker on that run play and now the defender blocking or responsible for that receiver has to worry about being blocked and then if he's not transition to covering that guy immediately well now when you're doing it out of these looks you have three guys you can do that with you now have like three insert players or credible insert type players on any of these plays and now you're making their defenders part of the run fit and you're creating just conflicts all over the place and so a lot of the same things that the Rams, the Bucs were doing when, you know, when Godwin was there, the Packers were doing this.

16:22Robert Mays: Remember? I mean, like Alan Lazard was doing this consistently. So these teams. And LeFleur said he straight up stole it from the Bucs. They played in 2020, right? Yes. In the playoffs. In the playoffs. Yeah, yeah. That was a Scotty Miller game. And no, he said he straight up, no, he straight up stole it from them. Like he was like, oh yeah, I take that from other teams. The Bucs, I fold our receivers in now. I was like, how funny, like how that just changes. Yeah. And we talked about this, where the Rams are doing a lot of 11 personnel stuff with multiple tight ends on the field and more and more teams are doing that.

16:52Robert Mays: And so you're just getting, you're doing the same things that were hard on offenses in an 11 personnel world, but now you're doing it with guys that are bigger and can do more things. And it's almost more complex and has more layers to it than even the 11 personnel stuff did. And it's just really, really fun to watch. So that's actually, I'm going to jump into my first lesson. that's kind of where I took mine is that creativity and like creativity and how you're using your motion player or shifting whoever your second tight end is or your F or your H or whoever it's going to be creativity and how you use that guy is is kind of necessary at this point you think about the Rams obviously they do this with their receivers sometimes talking about that like insert uh into duo but they actually had a play and this ties into Nate's point against the Lions in week 15 it was towards the end of the third quarter they're in 13 personnel but they have two of the tight ends to the left by themselves.

17:43It's a wing formation. They shuffle Davis Allen, who's the outside tight end, into insert in the B gap. But the corner there is on the line. And so he chases him into the core of the formation like he's going to cover him. But Allen steps up and actually blocks the linebacker. So he gets a two for one and Blake Corham just bounces it out to the outside because there's nobody there and it's a free touchdown. And so the Rams obviously do a fantastic job with it. Think about how the Niners use Kyle Juszczyk with that like weird, like running motion that they do with him and like he'll line up in like a 45 degree angle sometimes like they are very creative in terms of the angles they can get even some of their tight ends like whether it's Kittle or Tonjes or whoever they do that like you know I think everybody calls it Zorro where it's like outside zone but you're getting like a lead blocker on the move instead of it started as like just you go and hit whoever's on the edge they'll do it now where like depending on formation they'll let them hit the defensive tackle like just finding different and unique ways to use whoever your move player is in the backfield i think especially in the run game is like absolutely necessary for a lot of these top offenses dolphins yes dolphins that's why i'm very excited for for the chargers this year did you guys know from week 10 onwards the dolphins were second in explosive play rate first in explosive run rate and second explosive pass rate with name name players that are playing for them oh actually that's actually pretty easy There are a couple of usual ones.

19:07No, but also they—

19:09Robert Mays: This is a pro-Julian Hill podcast. Yeah, sad. I'm still so sad. But no, that is how Mike McDaniel uses guys and just twists how he uses players. The Zorro is a great example, but also how he'll create counter. And I was talking with you, Robert, when you came on 301 about this. He'll create counter looks without truly pulling anybody or only pulling one player, but creating the same blocks as a counter run. He does that with Ingold and the off tight end. And you can see it really screw with defenses because they're looking for the pulling guard. And then they're like, wait, and then they kind of get pinned.

19:47And so just like, just, you can really tell that he's just like, why don't we just try this? And he'll just do little cheap motions and little out motions and little, we'll pull this guy, we'll feign pulling this guy. Like, that's another beautiful thing with the Zorro blocks is, I mean, it's truly, I mean, Nuzoro isn't a matador, but it's very matador-like where they're just like, hey, I'm going to be a lead block. And then actually they feign the block, and then here comes Engel. And that's why a lot's been paid attention to Keaton Mitchell going to the Chargers. But the other guy that Mike McDaniel made a wanted poster about was Alk Engel.

20:19And I think you mentioned Juszczyk, Derek, from the 49ers. That's how important he is to the Dolphins and what they did, and I think is going to be very important for what the Chargers do. Very bullish on that offense, by the way. But the other thing, too, is the motion stuff, all this kind of cheating the motions or cheating the looks or creating the looks, creativity. That's where it's the inverse of the it's the Sean McVay journey. He made 11 personnel look like 12 and 13. Now he's making 13 look like 11 and 12 because then he has the athletes like Terrence Ferguson to be that slot receiver.

20:47The Colts have downs. The Rams have Ferguson. The Bears have they have Colson Loveland sometimes as the Z receiver is the X. and they're going 22 that made it look like 21 or 13 to make it look like 21 so yeah just the usage of these guys has just gotten so much more creative it's it's great did you see what ben

21:06Robert Mays: johnson said about how he's spending his break before training camp no it's going to be disgusting it was it was studying the dolphins run game from last year because eric studsville is on their staff now and so he has already had someone who was a part of that as a running backs coach in miami last year and his last press conference before they broke OTAs they were like what are you going to do anything fun he's like yeah I'm going to study the Dolphins run game that that's what I'm going to do on my break and it I get it I get it I love him so much I've gone down the rabbit hole with it and it's just been yeah it's a cool just cool little twists and just stuff that like you're like oh yeah I never thought to do it to do it that way and then just yeah it's it's cool it's a shanahan offense on lsd i mean that's that's what it is and i think what's what's interesting now too about like how motion used to be used in the run game like five years ago when it was like the just pure outside zone world it was like well you just bumped a jet motion receiver and you're going to move the second level and we're going to cut back behind it that's not really how it works now like you need to create better angles and better leverage not just on that and so i do think it's it's interesting that they've those guys have had to develop that and still found obviously very impressive ways to do it it was i think there was a time where i mean this is true for all offense and we've talked a lot about this over the last few years how the usefulness of motion has just decreased as defenses have become more familiar with it but there used to be so many different things where you could just say if i do x they will do y i will move them exactly how i want to move them by doing this thing and like you're saying derek if you would spread i mean think about like the 2017 2018 rams if you're sending brandon cooks and jet motion you're bumping the linebackers over one gap and you can just run it right into it well now no one moves now you could do a million different motions no one really moves but yeah they're like our safety is coming down late we're fine but if no one's moving and you're very quickly changing the number count onto one side of the formation by doing it very quickly if they're not accounting for it then you now have an advantage because no one's moving and so there are still ways to have it work in your favor even if defenses are less reactionary to it than they might have been seven or eight years ago that that's it's well that's why i kind of was so focused i i wanted to like talk about this somehow so maybe this i'll like pigeon you know shoehorn this in here but this is why i want to see the offenses use tempo this year and why the cliff kingsbury with the rams is so interesting because it's just that it's you i rober you always use the line but it was the who holds the pen last and defenses hold it right now.

23:36They do. At least the best ones do. And I think that's where the offenses can hold the pen less by not letting the defenses hold the pen at all. And that's how you do it. It's like, hey, we're not even going to get into this motion and late rotation. No, okay, because I even just my one example, the Seahawks, because they hold the belt right now. So it's like, all right, how do you beat the guys that hold the belt? And the ways that I saw teams do that, whether by choice or not, sometimes they're just getting their heads beaten and they had to. was they went tempo because you made the Seahawks defense with Mike McDonald running everything.

24:08He ran three buzz. And I could tell you right now. So it was like, if I can just make you run three buzz every time, now I'm the only one that holds the pen, and now Matthew Stafford knows I'm getting three buzz, or the best quarterbacks know I'm getting three buzz, rather than is it six, is it two, is it three, is it four? Is it some funky pressure attached to all that stuff? Out of freaking nowhere because he hasn't run one in a while, now he's just going to run one randomly on first and ten? Like, and that's what's annoying about what he does. So, yeah, that's why I just think tempo. Like, I had it, if I had this as, like, one of my answers, I said, looking at new frontiers is what these best offenses do, and I think that's one way they might do it.

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28:59Robert Mays: All right, you just snuck in an extra moment. We're going to let you go again. What's your next one? You can't take penalties. it's it's i'm going old school here this is this is some football coach nonsense outside two minutes non-garbage time rams 49ers bills patriots patriots we have not talked about but statistically are one of those offenses that you're like really and it's i mean as someone you know we've got some stuff on them later we'll get a couple drake may aficionados here but you know so we know some of the reason why but they also do some of the things that you have to do like in the weirdest way Josh McDaniel is actually equipped to do some of the things you have to do against defenses.

29:39But some of these top offense, Packers were in seventh, Lions eighth, Dolphins tenth. But you can't take penalties. And I saw that a lot of offenses, they are, sorry, a lot of referees clamped down on offenses at the line of scrimmage, especially recently, especially this last year. And I think this is where, this is cheap yards or losing cheap yards, I guess is the best way to put giving cheap yards to the defense. And so I think it sounds stupid, but there's a lot to be said that some of the best running teams are the least penalized teams because they're the smartest teams and they know what they're getting.

30:12So penalties happen when, you know, players footwork. When I think of penalties, I just think of holdings and like false starts. Maybe it's my dad, you know, just like, I don't think an OPI, you know, and anything like that, but it's like these ones that are controllable or at least manageable. And I really do see that the best teams are the ones not shooting themselves in the foot over and over and over. This is where I think the Bears, you could see the first four, five, six weeks, and the Jaguars, I'd use them as another example, work through their kinks and were able to get into this heavily, you know, super, you know, like hyper-specific game plans with a lot of motion, a lot of shifting, a lot of formation change, or like the Jaguars and the Rams, super packaged plays with long, wordy play calls.

30:54They were able to get better in the second half of the year and then not put themselves in such bad situations. So even teams that got better, I think that you can look at just their pre-snap penalties and just see that get better or just maybe their offensive penalties, I should say. But I really do think this is important. And I know this is old school, but it's something that's really stood out to me. It's like it's frustrating to see a lot of teams just not know what they're getting with defenses and hold or get illegal shift penalties and just stuff because the wide receivers don't know the second play call, which was the Jaguars in the first two months of the season.

31:24so it's very cool to see some of the teams get better and then it become tangible and I think pre-snap and manageable penalties is one of those instances this is a great point because Robert has has made a great point all the time about like why do defenses hold the pen last and what is it that they're doing it's that they're just treating as many downs as they can like third down well if you take a penalty and now it's second and 13 it's effectively a third down and they're just going to keep treating it that way and so if defenses are going to be able to do that you're just constantly shooting yourself in the foot and then I actually think Nate you make a great point about the young quarterbacks like Trevor Lawrence in his first six weeks with that offense Caleb Williams it's like the the older more mature quarterbacks paired with obviously you know offensive coordinators who are have their shit together and are really buttoned up those teams just aren't making because sometimes holdings and stuff are going to happen but they're not making the pre-snap procedurals they're not having to take delay of games that like the silly penalties they're not having those mistakes the way that

32:23Robert Mays: some of the other offenses are it was the most frustrating part about watching the Bears and Jags last year is that you could see it right like you could see what was on the other side of this stuff and they just were consistently shooting themselves in the foot in really inopportune moments and I think it's fair to say that I mean the Jags really did clean it up in the second half of the year but in year two you would assume that that stuff gets better and but even if you can have everything else about your offense can be really fine-tuned really smart really forward-thinking really well buttoned up and if you're doing that consistently none of the rest of it matters and both of those teams suffered from that last year yeah the i mean the jaguars i think through the first six weeks were like on pace to not only i think they already had tied or close to the illegal shift record um for at least as long as i could look out like because there's so many guys they wouldn't get set it was so frustrating uh but then once you know really It was Jacoby Myers and everything just kind of solidified, and it really just kind of really came together.

33:17You could see the process finally working out. But it was, yeah, that's what really led to that kind of this thought and seeing that the best offense is something that Kyle Shanahan doesn't get enough credit for is how infrequently his teams get penalized no matter how much movement and how much shifting he does on that offense. So something I just kind of keep an eye out for.

33:37Robert Mays: What's your next one, Derek? Your next lesson from the best offenses in football last year. I've got I'll take one that is like slightly related to that and is also a little bit more big picture it is just not as effective you it's harder to be a really good offense when you're holding the quarterback's hands now compared to the way it was like five six years ago like you think about what the Rams were early on with Jared Goff you think about what the 49ers were with Jimmy Garoppolo Tua and the Dolphins like I think it was just easier to kind of hold the quarterback's hands point and shoot we're going to motion because we know what the motion is going to do we're fast motioning with receivers it's going to clear out the linebacker you can throw the dig I think that sort of stuff it's harder to do now because again defenses know how to respond to that motion they know what windows you're trying to hit out of all of those formations I think now you do have to be I think the best offense we the best offenses we are seeing give are giving their quarterback more autonomy or at the very least asking more of them in the passing game like Like the Niners, I don't think necessarily ask a ton of Brock Purdy in terms of like handling a bunch of stuff.

34:43But the passing game is so much more full than it ever was with Jimmy Garoppolo. Like he has to go one to two to three to four to five way more than Jimmy ever did. It's not a point and shoot offense. And so I think it can be as simple as that. And then I think on the more extreme end, think about to go back to Jared Goff is the perfect example of it. He used to be the picture for what it used to be where you could hold a quarterback's hands in with the Rams and, you know, early on. But then he became a much more mature, I can handle the whole offense with Ben Johnson in Detroit. And that is how he was able to sustain pretty good play in the NFL.

35:14You think about Jordan Love, I think some of the ownership that he's taken of the Packers offense over the last year or so. Drake May being able to take over ownership pretty early in, you know, with the Josh McDaniels offense, him being able to be like, hey, I can check guys in and out of routes. I can, you know, we can shift this, we can shift that. I can reload the back out of empty if I need to. like him having ownership it allows the quarterback to pick and choose and find the answers they want rather than the play caller being like this will be the answer if it's not there we're kind of screwed it's like not if you don't have to throw hot with all these funky looks that's the goal and I think you see the best offenses trying to find ways to do that and I think the ones like the Shanahan offenses which has worked so long and I think the perfect example of it not working is the Super Bowl play against the Chiefs in the last Super Bowl with George Kittle in the backfield.

36:04When you put everything on the center, offenses truly don't hold the pen less. The center kind of sets and forgets it to an extent. That's why you want the quarterback to have that final trump card. But if you can avoid throwing hot, you're winning as an offense. But if the defense is constantly making you throw hot, you're throwing hot, which is making the defense win. You're doing what they want to do.

36:25Robert Mays: You're doing what you want them to do. In their hands. Yes. Yeah, I think the best example to me of putting training wheels on the quarterback, and this is, I think when we all started like covering the league or really paying attention to the league as adults, right? In like 2013 to 2015, you could do this. And the league, the offense exploded when teams got really, really good at this. When teams are playing a bunch of single high, you could just run a bunch of like big crossing routes off of play action. You'd be like, throw it to that guy. He's going to be open, throw it to that guy. And you could just create explosives that way.

36:55Robert Mays: That's to me is the biggest difference. And I'll talk about this in my next point because it's tied into this. You just think about the areas of the field that were accessible 10 years ago for explosive plays are just completely shut down now. And so if you're not going to be able to predetermine and predictate who's going to be open on some of those play action looks where it's like, you're just throwing the cross over the middle of the field. Just keep doing that over and over and over again. Well, the middle of the field is off limits now on those plays because there's one more defender sitting there.

37:24Robert Mays: Like the too high revolution to me is not about limiting explosive plays. That's not really the biggest benefit of it. It's that you have one more safety now sitting in the middle of the field. It's just dropping down into all of the stuff that worked like gangbusters 10 years ago. And so the quarterback just has to access more guys within the play than he ever would have when these offense was being spoon fed to these guys a decade ago. Like it's just not possible anymore. I think quarterbacks either have to be right 100 times in a row or they have to be a hero once a drive. And it's like that's what defenses are making them do.

37:58It's either be a genius, a thousand plays in a row, and someone maybe makes someone miss a tackle, which NFL defenses are tackling better than ever now. Or be a hero and throw a dig route into triple coverage. You know, the trick may throw to Mac Hollins in the Super Bowl. it was like that's what that's what basically the seahawks make you do and i um no but it's like that's really it i mean i think just the patriots with drake may is like just it's gonna be so interesting how year two goes because they're gonna put more on or yeah year two with mcdaniel i should say mcdaniel's is they're gonna put so much more on his plate and i think that that's i'm very curious does that create other limitations or does it create a whole new realm that he's going to achieve, which I think he will, because the receivers got a lot better.

38:47I like the receiver room just with Romeo Dobbs, but also I like even Diet Coke, A.J. Brown. That's a lot better than what they had. But no, I just there's so much more. I don't want to I don't want to get ahead of my next point. So I'm just trying. Sorry, I should maybe kick this to Derek, but I'm sorry. But there's just it's just very interesting to see what putting more on the quarterback can lead to higher ceiling, even if there is some bumpy road sometimes. Right, because the thing I would say about the 2013 to 2020, whatever we want to call that, like Shanahan-McVay era, the way that offenses were holding the pen last was just by doing whatever that they were doing with motioning and stuff.

39:22And now, obviously, that's off the table with what defenses are doing. The way that offenses get it back is like the quarterback has to hold the pen last. I don't think we're in a spot right now where it's as easy for the offensive coordinators to just like, we're going to do this one thing right before we snap the ball and it's going to give us the advantage we want. I do think quarterbacks need to be able to be able to like get to the line quickly, be comfortable with what they're seeing, change things if they have to, and be comfortable running the clock down to the end. Like this was this is one of the things that I do think the Jaguars could be good at.

39:55I think they got a lot of value out of Trevor being able to handle that to some degree. But there were still plays where it's like maybe the play call is getting in a little bit late and they still end up getting a delay of game, just all that sort of stuff. And so it was like for them, it kind of cut both ways. Like it helped them that they could do it. They also got some penalties because I think that they had some issues dealing with that. That is like for an offense like them, if they can button that up, well, they're going to be cooking with gas. Like if they can get all the benefits from it and not have these delay games and like bad shifts and stuff like that, I think that could really help them raise their level.

40:27Robert Mays: I think you you can give the differences. If I was trying to articulate, I think the biggest difference is there are still going to be if your offense is well constructed. an available beneficial choice for the quarterback on any given pass play. You're just going to have to work a little bit harder to get there. It might be the third guy who's available to you, not the first guy. Because if you're a team, the Niners to me are the best possible example of this. I've said this a million times this offseason, but I firmly believe it. No offense in the league, no coordinator in the league, uses space to his advantage better than Kyle Shanahan does right now.

41:00Robert Mays: And so if you're going to do that, if you're going to get five guys out and there's going to be really good spacing within your offense, somebody's open. you just got to get there and that is what brock purdy is very good at doing and so i think that's where guys like caleb williams can be better as as he moves forward within that offense where it's like i need you to get quicker from two to three because the third guy is open and so if you can get your quarterback there even if you're making the offense easier on him with all that space that you're creating they're still going to be the available answers even if they're a little bit deeper into the play just to cap off the the jaguars point and the clock time or i'm sorry the amount of penalties that the Jaguars got weeks one through nine 31st highest penalty rate on offense weeks 10 through 18 sixth average time to snap dead last or as far as they they waited the longest amount of time to snap the ball from weeks 10 to 18 so yeah so everything that we said the stats kind of bearing it out the eye test it was exactly what we looked like yeah and it got so much better in the second half of the year all right so why i brought brought a play action why I had play action on the mind when I was bringing it up with Derek's point is that it is one of my points.

42:06Robert Mays: Play action's back, baby. We are back. And I've always just stylistically, aesthetically, this is my favorite version of football. Going back 20 years to watching the Broncos in the 90s, the mid-2000s, Gary Kubiak, Texans, like the teams nearest and dearest to my heart are under center play action teams. And I know, Nate, this used to drive you especially crazy, but I think a lot of people were early, a lot of discourse in the early 2010s with play action, heavy personnel, which we'll get to a little bit later too, was more of this equals good, right? Just do more of it. Just put more tight ends in the field and it'll magically make your offense better.

42:47Robert Mays: That's not the case. And that's not what I'm trying to say here. Play action is back in a way that it hasn't been in the last couple of years. We league wide per next gen play action rate in 2023 was 22.4 % of dropbacks. it is now back over 25%. And so it is starting to creep up again. Per next gen, here are your play action heaviest teams in the NFL last season. Rams number one, or this is percentage of their dropbacks. Rams number one, Bears number two, Colts number three, Washington was number four, but that really doesn't count. It's a very weird version of play action that doesn't really apply to this conversation.

43:21Robert Mays: And flash fakes. Yeah, yeah. Packers fifth, Dolphins sixth, Vikings seventh, 10th Cowboys 8th Lions 9th Seahawks 10th that's nice and tidy those are those are the teams I would I would want to be like based on what their offenses looked like last year and so when we were and I think the Rams are a really good example of this but I think a lot of teams feed into this when we were looking at really effective play action a decade ago again it was these big crossing routes it was really aggressive it was you're pushing the ball to the intermediate areas down the field. That's not what play action looks like anymore.

43:56Robert Mays: The benefits of play action now are creating indecision with the defense. It's not about vacating huge areas of space. By using a lot of play action on early downs, essentially you're just not giving the defense any information, which could be another one of these lessons, by the way. The best offenses in the league are giving zero information to the defenses that they're playing. And what is so cool is that now play action is being weaponized in a very different way than it was when it was a huge trend a decade ago. Last year, I'm pretty sure this is right. Since 2020, which is the last season that first season that True Media has like air yards for in this sort of example.

44:34Robert Mays: But this last year in the NFL, I believe was the first year in the last five. And I would have to imagine maybe the first year in like the modern NFL, where the average play action completion in the NFL went a shorter distance than the average non-play action completion in the NFL. That is shocking. It was 5.6 air yards per play action completion, 5.8 per non-play action completion. If you go back and you look, there were years in like 2020 where it was a yard between them. Oh, yeah. And so the average air yards per attempt on play action in 2018 was 9.0. This year it was 7.9. 35 % of play action completions this year went to the sticks.

45:18Robert Mays: It was 41 % in 2020. and so when you watch these teams and we have all these tight ends and I think another really good example of this uh the Packers did this really well where they'll have two tight ends in the field and we're using play action but we're using play action as a way to spit the ball to Tucker Craft in the flat like it's really just a way to create indecision and really give yourself a bunch of easy completions outside of the numbers. Last season, 35 % of play action throws in the NFL per next gen were on outbreaking routes, 35%. It was 28.5 in 2018. The Packers are the best example of this.

46:04Robert Mays: The Packers had 50 % of their play action attempts last year were on outbreakers. When LeFleur was the offensive coordinator in Tennessee in 2018, it was 26%. So what has happened? It's crazy. And the Rams, so the Rams were at, there were seven teams in 2018 that were throwing 30 % of their play action attempts on outbreaking routes. Seven last year, there were 26 teams that cracked 30%. And so just think about what we were talking about before. If you're going to be in these two high looks and you're going to have these safeties dropping down into the middle of the field, you can access areas outside.

46:41Robert Mays: that is where the space now exists with a lot of this stuff and so you have these teams that are throwing a bunch of outbreaking routes into the flat into shorter areas the field off play action and the the coolest part about this and i nate know i know nate likes this it's no less explosive you're still 20 explosive play rate on these plays compared to 21 in 2018 even if you're not throwing the ball as far down the field so the completions are easier but they're just as effective and you're still creating a ton of indecision for the defense which is just a very cool shift i had been wondering if comeback routes were going to make a comeback uh and that it was because of how corners play now and they're so inclined to look in um you know not in a spiritual sense in a sense of looking inwards to the field because they've been playing all they're playing all those in breakers i mean we you know the stock the arrow doesn't always point up so it's like the Shanahan offense, if you're beating that defense's head over and over and over with these same concepts, they're going to figure out a way to go like, okay, we'll take away that concept.

47:46We're going to try our best to take it away. And yeah, so I think comeback routes, but also if you just watch the Seahawks again, they hold the belt, but if you watch how much depth they push with all their second level defenders, all push back into the throwing lanes and then they allow the check down and then they rally and tackle. I looked at next gen stats for a different reason, but it sparked my brain, was there are more open throws and wide open throws in next-gen stats history, the highest rate that are categorized as open and wide open, but then Yak has gone down half a yard since 2018 to 2025 because they were allowing defenses to go, okay, we'll rally and tackle.

48:26It's exactly what they say they're going to do, but they're actually doing it. If you think of the Chargers with Jesse Minter, what he was doing, like a lot of their stuff, they'll let this stuff go underneath, and then they rally and tackle. So you just see these defenses. And I think, too, just bringing up the play-action stuff is what it allows protection-wise, it allows more of a variety of protections. If I drop back and pass—

48:45Robert Mays: As into my first point, it's exactly what I was— Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. And the variety, though, is just like—because rather than—okay, getting two tight ends. You guys were also talking about this, like having a guy cross the formation and changing the—you're changing the angles of attack. how the Packers do play action. They're some of the best. It's more or less a flash fake, but they go straight back with the fake, but the running back gets out a lot of the times on those protections because they're so good at communicating. They do it their own unique way. But it's really just that you see just the menu open up, even if the pass concept, what the routes are, might be the same, but what they're doing in the backfield action really opens up because if I'm dropping back and passing, there's only so many protections I can do.

49:27Half slide, full slide, you know, man blocking, you know, it all kind of works in unison together. But if I go play action, I can get anyone involved or not involved with the play action. Again, I tweeted out those four Colts plays and look at the variety that they have just in those play action plays on those. So, yeah, I think all that stuff is just like why this is all tying it together so nicely. This is kind of a small aside, but this all sounds like Bruce Arians shit. like let's like pull guards and protection move guys and protection play action chuck it down the field comeback routes like that's all the carson palmer offense was we're throwing 10 yard outs

50:03Robert Mays: well that the difference is they were 10 yard outs now they're like six yard crossers that that's the difference the lack of aggression from some of the bruce arians would puke watching the lions offense i know he would puke i love it to be clear to all lions fans i love it bruce arians would vomit the lions offense is such an oddity in that if you not that like deep passing equals good offense but if you scale by like how often teams throw past 20 yards like the bottom 10 are mostly terrible offenses and then the lions are at the bottom and like the fourth best explosive play it's great it's unbelievable what they get away with what so the exact team talking about here where were the teams that under center or play action rate because it It overlaps with the explosive drop back rate, but say those names.

50:49Robert Mays: It's Rams, Bears, Colts, Washington, Packers, Dolphins, Vikings, Cowboys, Lions, Seahawks are the top 10 teams in play action rate. So I also want to start not mandating this, but really driving this as explosive drop backs rather than explosive pass rate, which took a little finagling in my true media stats. And hopefully, you know, I don't have a QC for this. You know, I have to QC myself, so hopefully it comes out. But so it's a drop back. So you're including scrambles. You're including sacks. So the scramble runs are included here. So I always look at outside two minutes and garbage time excluded.

51:21That's kind of just my usual filters. But Packers, Patriots, Seahawks, Lions, Colts, Bears, Bills, Rams, Jags, Ravens. So, again, not only just the best offenses, but playoff teams. And playoff teams that win games, including the Patriots and Seahawks that made it all the way to the final. You know, a lot of just the best offenses. It's just, and really, again, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but like what teams do on early downs. And that ties into exactly what we're talking about, protection stuff that just matters so much what they're eating up on those early downs. That's such a good way to do it, though, because I feel like Caleb Williams is probably the perfect example of that.

51:55If you're doing pure pass rate, obviously he's really explosive, but it doesn't capture how many times he's running for explosive gains or not losing them by virtue of like he's either throwing the ball away or he does not get sacked. And so like, that's a really good way to do it.

52:10Robert Mays: Let's take one more quick break and then come back and run through a couple more of these.

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53:39It's valuable to 7 or 8. To avoid existence, selection varies by place.

53:48Robert Mays: All right, Nate, you're up. Your next lesson from watching the best offenses in the league last year. This is an old lesson, and really it was, maybe it was, you, Robert, way back in the day, now over a decade ago, talking about Kyle Shanahan, but just what teams are doing on early downs and how they're generating those explosive plays. So it's everything we've been talking about, formation usage, tight end usage, everything. But teams kind of going against type in situations maybe is the best way I can put it, meaning, hey, it's first and 10. We're not just trying to get five yards. This is when we're scoring a touchdown.

54:21Hey, it's third and not. As it should be, as God intended. As it should be. and we you guys we joked about it earlier uh or Derek even said it like you you don't want the the defenses you're doing what the defense wants you to do as far as the stuff but that's what this two high defenses are doing we don't want you to throw deep all right so we should try to throw it deep well if they don't want us to throw deep then we should do that huh like we should just build everything the entire plane on things that attack down the field hello bears hello rams and those are the teams doing that and this is what Kyle Shanahan's done for a decade plus but attacking on early downs and this little the Rams Seahawks matchups I keep coming back to because I do think Sean McVay like he does every offseason has you know a moment of zen or just kind of a like you know coming to Jesus moment whatever you want to put it but I think that some of those plays really clicked I think it was the playoff game because they kind of merged together but how the Rams were attacking the Seahawks on early downs and hitting those big dig routes to the receivers, mostly Pukunokua, but it was on first and second down.

55:25It wasn't third down attacking down the field. It was using the play action stuff we talk about, the straight drop back with no play action stuff that we talk about, but just using those big dig routes to then, now you're getting the Seahawks and kind of better personnel. Now it's Ernest Jones having to cover the deep dig as opposed to a dime defender or a lighter personnel that's pretty, Maybe they're keen on the pass as opposed to like just being surprised by it in that instance. So how these teams are attacking our early downs is just something I come to. And also on the flip side, the Seahawks were one of the worst teams, their offense, on third and long this past year.

56:00They were awful on third and long, like awful. So it just shows win on early downs and we can do enough as long as we're generating those big plays. And we're not just trying to go 5-5 or 5-2-3. You know, we're not just trying to add up to 10. We're trying to add up to a score. and I think teams where you want to do it is on early downs which I think ties into everything we've been talking about as far as formations and personnel usage and all that stuff I love this for

56:24Robert Mays: multiple reasons it kind of ties into one of the points I wanted to make and something that Derek alluded to earlier where what are you doing on those early downs hugely important how often are you playing those early downs also to me plays into this and obviously like second and seven is second and seven, but how you choose to approach that can change the way that a defense reacts to you. And so one of the things I was looking at is what are teams doing on second and seven plus? That's usually the cutoff for like what second and long means when you're bucketing these plays, right? And so if you're in second and seven plus, and it is like a get back on track or second and long situation, a lot of defenses, depending on what your offense will do, will treat that just like it's third down.

57:07Robert Mays: They'll run the same sorts of defenses. You'll get funky pressures, all that kind of stuff. Last year, the two teams, there were all the teams that had at least one pass from under center on second and seven per game. So they had at least 16 over the course of the season. A lot of these teams had upwards of 30. So they're doing it like twice a game, second and seven plus passing the ball from under center. Bears, Lions, Packers, Patriots, Seahawks are all the teams that did it at least once per game. Okay. They all had an explosive play rate of 20 % or more on those second and seven under center passes.

57:45Robert Mays: So if you can make second and seven, like first and 10, instead of like third and eight, you are then dictating the way that that down goes to opposing defenses. And I think that to me is a through line with all of these offenses. How are you not giving away any information and dictating the way the game is being played? How much base defense are you getting because of what sort of offense you run. On early downs in the second half of last season, this was after the Rams leaned into heavier personnel, eight teams got base defense on more than a third of their early down passes. Bears, Ravens, Dolphins, Seahawks, Eagles, Cowboys, Niners, Rams.

58:26Robert Mays: The Bears were at 53.3 % base defense on their early down passes. They were like, no other team was over 45%. The Colts and the Patriots were both in the top five in the early part of the season, and the Packers were also up there before the Kraft injury. So how are you making sure you're getting what you want and how are you not giving them anything? And Ryan Paganetti, who used to work for the Raiders last year and is now doing some coaching analytics data on Twitter, he's been doing a lot of cool stuff this week. And one of the things he put out there that perfectly ties into this was about Ben Johnson's play-calling tendencies.

59:02Robert Mays: So Ben Johnson on second and one in his time as a play-caller has a 48 % pass rate on second and one. No one else in the league is above 31%. I remember John Gruden being a huge, like if they got second and run, they were just play action shot playing like that 2016 offensive or not 20, like 2021 or whatever they took over. So he's throwing the ball more than anyone else on second and one Ben Johnson's. It's 48 % of dropbacks. He's running the ball on third and medium. Yeah. More than anyone else. So if you look at the splits, It's almost all the situations are as close to 50-50 as you can reasonably get.

59:40Robert Mays: And so it makes intuitive sense, but it's so important. It's like if you can do anything on any given play, it makes it so much harder on the defense. So that's where under center comes into play. That's where play action comes into play. That's where all of this stuff comes into play, is that you allow yourself to be anything on early downs specifically. And I think all of the best offenses are consistently doing that. and that's the thing when they open up fourth down it creates third down third down has totally changed and that's actually if I interview Johnson actually and some others is I was curious of how they do their play calling menu and whether they have new categories you know this is my third and three third three six that we're not going for it on fourth down yada yada yada we are going for it on fourth down how they kind of do all that yeah that's something that Ben Johnson's always done that I've just always loved.

1:00:30My favorite one was, so it must have been 2024. He ran the ball against, I really want to say it was against the Chargers. And it was hilarious. Then they were getting all these blitz looks and funky looks. And then they just ran it like three times in a row. I think they ran it on like fourth and four or fourth and three. And they just ran like a straight round play and they just mowed them down. But no, it's just something that he's done. I've always liked. But when you open up fourth down, also get better field position with the new kickoff rules. that just it makes everything just more open like so this is just a great way to put it like second down now can be treated like first down and third down can be treated like second along and then you just go from there and i've been curious of how offensive play colors go about it individually because a lot of stuff gets crystallized a lot of stuff gets you know um god i'm thinking the fancy word for your homogenous uh but i do think that but i do think sorry i got three-year-old one-year-old and they got some cold so it's and it's, yeah, the brain's shooting blanks right now.

1:01:29But no, I really do think that that's what I've been curious about is how much that is league-wide of how everyone considers it. Like you even mentioned, second to seven plus, that's what I've always known as, that's a passing down. Does that now change in who considers what what and what are the numbers for each offense and everything? So just something I've been kind of really been theorizing on and what how offense is treated. And Ben Johnson, I think is the epitome of it.

1:01:52Robert Mays: It's also interesting to watch how many teams are going to start running the ball in some of those get back on track situations from under center just to give more credence to the idea that you would run it on those plays. Like Seattle to me is a really good example of this. Them and the Bears are the only teams that ran the ball 40 % of the time or more on second and seven. And Seattle's runs on those plays are atrocious. Like the value, like if you look at those plays specifically and isolate them are so bad. But because they're willing to run the ball in those situations, that's where they can then become explosive if they use play action on second and seven plus.

1:02:25Robert Mays: And so I think more and more offensive coaches are starting to get attuned to that. And the ratio is going to be hard to figure out, right? Like you don't want to run the ball all the time on second and nine and be giving yourself third and seven. But if you know that you can run the ball every once in a while on second and seven and get yourself some third and three is some third and twos while then making your opponents account for the fact that you will run the ball on second and seven, it's a really interesting push and pull. And I think it's all in the interest of, again, making sure you don't have to play third down twice, especially like early in the game to like if you're if you're going to submarine two series by running on second and seven, maybe only get a yard on those.

1:03:04but because now they believe it in the early third quarter, you come out of the half and you just take a shot over their head on the next seven and eight or whatever it's going to be, because you're making them believe it. Like so much of football, I think especially at linebacker in the spine of the defense is like a feel of like, what do I think? What have they proven to me that they will do? It's just what you have to honor. It's like three point shooting. You don't have to be Steph Curry. You just have to be like 34%. Just enough. I also sidebar. We already talked about Bruce Arians, but do you guys remember what his second along tendency was he was like 100 it was 100 empty 100 pass well that's incredible there was i mean no gimmicks no gimmicks nothing it was second and seven plus empty and i really want to say it was 100 empty 100 pass i know it was like 99 9999 that's like leaning into the punch that's like oh you think i'm gonna pass oh buddy i am

1:03:59Robert Mays: watch this one of mine like one of my little sub ones was what is your plan for get back on track situations and it kind of plays into this like because i think the best example of that from last year go look at dallas's uh formation uh widths on second and seven plus they were in spread looks on 46 percent of their second and long plays last year they led the league in all situations with at 36%. And so they had a plan. It's like on second and seven plus, we're going to spread you out and we're going to let Dak go to work. And he was, the Cowboys were second in the league and success rate on second and seven plus plays last year.

1:04:39Robert Mays: So that is a viable solution if you have the guys and the plan to make it work, but it's just, that's a high wire act. You're asking a lot of great. You know what to have for that? Oh, we're going to get an empty. I could just pick you apart against defenses that aren't doing as much disguise there now. Well, that's what I haven't found the number to kind of really, I think I did like maybe after a sack, but after a negative play, look at Drake Mays, um, air yards. It's hysterical. Like he, if there's a sack or a TFL, he is launching that thing on the next play. Then it's just, again, it's the same thing could be philosophy or could be just the quarterback just willing to do it.

1:05:18Robert Mays: Nate, I think you're up. This is your last one, right? Man. Uh, uh i i could go i already kind of used my my stuff i already kind of blew my load i've got one if you're all out i do have one that i kind of want to get because i kind of like have used my stuff for the peppering on your guys it's all tied in together so we've all been adding a little seasoning to each other i know so that's the thing is i kind of use my other kind of auxiliary points but it's kind of like just pointing out a lot of same offenses i really do think if we want to talk more about the tempo stuff i do think that uh some more of the some offenses are going going to be looking towards that the cowboys are another great example of that they used a lot of tempo last year the saints another interesting offense that could take a step forward they used a lot of tempo last year uh kingsbury going to the rams i do think they might lean into that god it's stark when you look at the rams i i looked at it was like outside two minutes i want to say first and second down i looked at it and it was like jared goff 2018 it was like 14 no huddle and then last year was like 1.2 percent like they like they have gone totally different andy reed barely uses it at all.

1:06:19I don't think they will lean into that as well. If you want to use more shifting emotion, you can't, but that's everything we talked about. Defenses are better at that. Do you spread them out or do you go faster? I would go faster because I think defenses are good at getting spread out now. Oof, that sounded weird. But no, that's maybe my last point is just maybe tempo. I really do think tempo is going to be something that more offenses play into this year, and I think that's where the 12, 13 personnel stuff is interesting. Everything we talked about on the show is using those tight ends like receivers, using them like fullbacks, using the non-runnerback, the non-two receiver, the non-tight end.

1:06:51That fifth guy is traditionally known as the adjuster. And these tight ends are so much better now, so much more athletic, better blocking, and the coaches are better using them. They can truly be that adjuster, whether it's the slot, the fullback, or the off-ball tight end, or even in-line tight end and some other looks. So I do really think that that's where it's like, it's really cool to see offenses more using it, but also the body types to use it too.

1:07:14Robert Mays: how many different formations can you run out of your 22 personnel or 21 personnel or 13 personnel like if i pull some loveland i can run that's the point how many can you run like are you an offense that can do a million different things with that group of players on the field because if you are boy you become dangerous and again going back to seattle it's one of my favorite things about them last year is that they'd be in a 12 or 21 look they would run one thing and then on the next play, it'd be empty, right? Same guys in the field, except now we're an empty against base personnel. That's why I want to see Elijah Arroyo healthy because they could totally do some cool stuff with that.

1:07:51Robert Mays: All right, Derek, what was the one that you wanted to throw out there as the last one? Yeah, so when we talked about, or what you were talking about with like second and seven going under center pass as a means of like the defense thinks we're going to do this thing. We have to do the thing that they like, like they want to prevent deep passes. We have to stop deep passes. I think so much of what defense is doing now with the two high stuff, rotating safeties down into the middle of the field, it's to like cover the deep intermediate seam area like that 20 to 35 yards. We're taking away seams, deep crossers, deep digs, whatever it's going to be.

1:08:23But the best offenses are still the ones that make you honor it. And it goes back to your point, too, of like, in theory, we can do everything on every play. So you're not throwing these deep seams, deep crossers five times a game. It might only be once or twice, but you're making the defense respected. I went back and looked at air yards, 20 to 35 air yards between the numbers and quarterbacks that had at least 10 of those attempts and got at least 0.8 EPA per attempt. Caleb Williams, Jordan Love, Trevor Lawrence, Drake May, Brock Purdy, Matthew Stafford, Jared Goff. It's like all of the most well-crafted offenses and quarterbacks that are willing, even when defenses are trying to take those away, willing to make and honor those throws.

1:09:06Because I think eight years ago, you could just craft up ways that any quarterback could make those. So you could find ways where Tua can just make those throws. That's not the case anymore. You need quarterbacks who have the talent to make defenses honor that.

1:09:20Robert Mays: It's fun watching how teams are trying to access that area of the field. It's like it's there. It requires a lot of creativity to do that now. But it's why those plays are particularly fun where you'll have. I'm trying. That was a Bears example. That's going to drive me crazy. I think it was in the playoff game. where Burden's running this like big crossing route. And as he's running it, he just stops, right? And so he just shuts down before he gets to that next safety. And then that's how you access that area of the field. And so instead of that guy running across or into that space from the other side, he's going to be in the exact same spot on the same side, but it's because he stopped before he gets into all that traffic.

1:09:59It's like running a 30-yard over the ball route.

1:10:01Robert Mays: Yes, that's what it is. And like the Bears did a ton of that stuff. The Rams do a lot of that, too, where they'll run these deep, deep comebacks, but they'll be doing them on the hash marks. Again, so there are teams that are really good at accessing that area. It just requires some wrinkles on stuff that you don't often see a ton of. Well, that's where, and even we've talked about changing numbers and everything, and I think for when everybody was running match, especially single high match, the best way to go about it is you kind of overload a formation, four by one. Defenses are really good about that now.

1:10:35And, you know, if you want to do the four by one looks like look how defenses play the Broncos because they do so much of that, especially on second down. But really, and the Bears are maybe the best Bears Rams. Probably the best two examples here, which is great for the show, is how teams are using flood concepts, which sale is. This is a difference. OK, scissors is a post in one outbreaker, a corner. Sale is a post or a go, a corner and then a flat. So two outbreakers. and then flood is three outbreakers high corner medium corner and then a flat and what that does is because teams are running kind of quarters based stuff and rotating this stuff you're just you're flooding the coverage and now that's where you can really see i think the bears are the best example how they formation to it how they motion to it is how they kind of manipulate to get what they want to um and then same with in breakers uh i you see teams get into it where they run that kind of double dagger you know to double over with a dig behind it and then i saw teams getting to three end breakers um you know what's better than a million dollars a billion dollars like what's better than two end breakers three end breakers and it works because you see these quarter safeties they're so aggressive and they just cut on everything just clamp down on everything all right so we have one safety taking one over we have the linebacker pushing to the second over and then the second safety closing on it boom here comes the third end breaker across so really curious again how teams kind of learn how to tie these guys down and create the flood stuff The stop routes you guys mentioned, the sail stop, you know, getting the Chiefs kind of do this actually.

1:12:07They've done it with Kelsey for years, but maybe more teams leaning into it rather than running the sail all the way to the sideline, stop on the numbers and kind of curl back. I think that's another formation I think more teams can tap into, and I see some of these offenses tapping into it a little bit.

1:12:21Robert Mays: it's incredible when you watch really good offenses and you watch those flood combinations how many different ways it ultimately expresses into those routes and just how smart teams are getting about what they're doing with that flat controller plays back into the first point we made teams have gotten so good at using that tight end just for one half beat to get like an extra half body and pass protection and then he releases perfectly on time as all of those routes come all the way across where he now controls the flat he pulls that player down while you use him as a blocker and then he's pulling down that space at the exact time somebody is coming behind him the team that i i still think started doing this more than any other that i was like this is such a great idea now everyone does it was the lions when ben johnson was there like watching them do that with their tight ends so well in his first couple years there but now everybody like does some version of that because we have so many teams playing with all these tight ends yeah and weaponizing checkdowns is the next frontier too and you see teams tapping packers were the ones that i think popularized popularized it but then the cowboys do it everybody does it but that that escort you know check down um you know and it really is the hr meme because the steelers do it no one cares but then everyone else does it with arthur smith and everyone else does it they are already was doing some 13 some cool formation stuff personnel stuff with the falcons but you know it's the hr me when Sean McVay does it.

1:13:47But I do think that just even that stuff is like how teams are, hey, you're going to, again, if defense is going to let us check it down or throw underneath, how do we weaponize that? If they're going to saw off our yak yardage now and tackle us so well, that's really why I think the better offenses, the Cowboys are the best iteration of that. Schottenheimer's scheme is really smorgasbord. It's everything. And he, you mentioned this, Robert, he has the quarterback that executes that, but they have the personnel that executes that, that executes it as well. So that's why I'm curious of like what he maybe folds in there or other teams kind of fold in to kind of weaponize those check downs.

1:14:21Robert Mays: And again, that gets into the, to me, like the weaponizing check downs is the play action completions that are three yards past the line of scrimmage. Like it's just, that's just one other way. And so it's all as this conversation is hopefully illuminated. It's all tied together in some way, shape or form. Like none of this stuff happens in isolation. It's all tied together in some way. So, all right. That conversation was as fun as I expected it to be and hoped it would be. I hope you guys enjoyed it as well. Nate, please tell the people where they can check out all of the great stuff that you're doing right now.

1:14:57Podcast, Football 301, wherever you get this podcast, you can get that podcast. That's kind of, you know, maybe not on the athletic website or, you know, that app, but, you know, but Football 301, you can check that out.

1:15:06Robert Mays: If you can't access Football 301 on the athletic website, I'm going to have a conversation with somebody. Oh, yeah, we have a new partnership, didn't you know? So, no, and then, yeah, also Yahoo Sports YouTube channel. We're going to have our own little Yahoo NFL page soon. But also, yeah, the written word on Yahoo Sports as well. And just going to have some stuff, off-season stuff right now, breakout players, all that. But I'll have a 2026, 2027 big board next month coming out as well. And this is the old stomping ground. So it's great to see you guys. Great to see you too, buddy. Appreciate you taking the time to do it.

1:15:36Robert Mays: That's all we got for today. We will be back tomorrow. Just a quick heads up. We're not going to have shows on Tuesday, this week, or next week. We got some prep-heavy podcasts that we wanted to do, and we didn't want to do them on a Monday. We wanted to spend a little bit more time working on them. So, still four shows a week. Not a huge change. But instead of shows Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, we're going to be Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, each of the next two weeks because we want to be doing the best job we can. That's as simple as it gets. So, be on the lookout for that. That's all we got for today.

1:16:08Robert Mays: Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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