First impressions of the 2025 rookie class

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0:40Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. First impressions of the preseason is what we are digging into today. I know it's been a few days since those games wrapped up, but it's given us time to really go back and study this stuff, getting to go back and watch the quarterbacks that we saw for the first time, all of the rookies, JJ McCarthy, getting his first action since his only preseason start from last year, only preseason action from last year. We talked about the offensive tackles that were drafted in the first round, dug into a couple of mid round guards that had pretty promising preseason debuts.

1:11Robert Mays: So we hit it from every angle when it came to preseason first impressions from week one with me, Dave Hellman and Derek Klassen. Let's get to that conversation right now.

1:25Robert Mays: First impressions are very important. We hear about that in a lot of different facets of life, and we got plenty of them last weekend in the NFL world. A lot of rookies playing their first preseason games. We got some offensive and defensive coordinators showing us what they've got for the first time. So that's what we're doing today. We've had a few days to marinate on the first impressions of the NFL preseason, and we're going to dig through all the ones we thought were notable today, Dave.

1:52Derrik Klassen: I love the my relationship with football this time of year because I you know you've been traveling around the country you've had a lot of stuff going on I have not I watched preseason football all last weekend and by like Sunday by the time I was watching the Bears Dolphins game I was like I don't know if I can do this anymore like this is this stops being fun after a while but then getting a chance to revisit it and just watch it in cut-ups and get ready for the second week like I'm jacked up again. I'm ready for the next round. I've forgotten how boring a lot of the first weekend was. It totally reinvigorated me.

2:28Robert Mays: I got only the best parts. That's how I really enjoyed my experience because I did not watch a lot of it in real time. I just got to hear the initial wave of reactions and then like, oh, this is the stuff I should go back and watch. And so I felt like streamlining it. I really enjoyed my experience over the last 24 hours. I'm like watching all the first round picks and the 10 or 15 plays they played. So I got the best of the best here, Derek. I'm very excited to dig into this conversation.

2:53Dave Helman: I'm kind of with Dave, though, where like I feel like by the fifth preseason game that you've watched over the span of two days, like live, like the broadcast versions. I'm just like, I can't do early fourth quarter of, you know, Panthers versus whatever. Like, it's just it doesn't do it for me. But then you go back and watch the film and like, yeah, watching 30 snaps of X first rounder. that still gets me going realizing what some of these guys look like I don't want to spoil the list we're going to talk about some fun ones but that part is still incredibly gratifying

3:20Robert Mays: speaking of first round picks we have a fun thing to announce today coming on Monday of next week we have our first episode of building the beast with Dane Brugler and Dave Hellman so for you draft sickos out there for everyone that wanted Dane's weekly show back in the athletic football show feed. You're getting it from the middle of August all the way through the draft next year in late April, early May, Dave, you and Dave, you and Dane will be doing a weekly podcast together.

3:52Derrik Klassen: I appreciate this plug. I'm so excited. Uh, as we are recording this, Dane and I have not recorded yet. We record on Friday and I'm so jacked, man. If you're not familiar with it, with our work before Dane and I have done a lot of draft work together over the years. We are very we're good buddies. We're familiar with each other. I think this is going to be a ton of fun. I love college football and I love talking draft. So, yeah, starting Monday, it'll be in your feet on Monday. We're going to talk about all the exciting players, which positions are exciting in this draft class, which positions maybe aren't so exciting.

4:29Derrik Klassen: And we can watch how the college season unfolds to see how that maybe changes our opinions. I'm I am beside myself with excitement. And I've been, you know, I've got the rundown ready. I'm ready to go.

4:41Robert Mays: I'm super, I'm super pumped for it. I think I mentioned this, but we're calling it building the beast. Obviously, Dane does the beast at the end of every single draft cycle. This is the process of how it gets done. The early experiences with all these guys, how he's looking at all these position groups. So Dave and Dane will be building the beast over the next nine months here. And I am very much looking forward to the process and being a small part of it from afar. Speaking of the NFL draft, let's talk about the first pick in the 2025 NFL draft. Let's dig into our first impressions of the rookie quarterbacks from this weekend.

5:15Robert Mays: And let's start with your guy, Cam Ward, Derek, your early impressions of Cam Ward from his first handful of snaps with the Tennessee Titans.

5:24Dave Helman: I mean, he looked like what you would think, right? Where like I think on the first drive, he was a little bit he was a little bit jumpy. Like there was a third and five where I think he could have hit like the little spot route out of a trips bunch. And he just didn't. He turned and bailed and the plans of getting nuked. They come back later and get the ball. And then he just looks a lot more comfortable. He's like you see some of the moments where he's actually speeding up his footwork in a good way to get the ball out and find some of these crossers and find some of these underneath routes.

5:52Dave Helman: You see some of the aggression down the field. He hit, I think, Calvin Ridley on like a big deep over. you know the aggression then you know kind of turns into recklessness because there was a cover two hole shot that he tried to throw where the corner the corner at no point looks like he's buying the underneath route and cam ward's like i'll fit it anyway and which like that in the preseason sure if he's still doing that by week six i'm gonna start you know getting a little itchy but for now in the preseason i'm like yeah man see you know see what you can get away with

6:18Robert Mays: dave i don't think we've talked about cam ward what were your feelings about cam ward coming out And are you as excited as I think Derek and I are about watching Cam Ward in this offense?

6:28Derrik Klassen: Which I don't I don't study these guys as deeply as Dane does, especially during college football season. But it's just as a college football fan and somebody who stayed up just for fun to watch Cam Ward play Cal on the West Coast last year. Like I just I love this guy. I love what he's all about. I love the gunslinger approach that he brings to the position. And I wanted to say watching him back in this game, I think it goes underappreciated that Cam Ward just has a hose. Like he's just got such a fun arm. And I don't I know if you follow the draft process, you know that. But I don't feel like he's talked about the right way among like people getting ready for this coming season.

7:14Derrik Klassen: I don't think people appreciate his natural talent just in general. I wanted to throw this out there, too, in an attempt to ingratiate myself with Titans fans. Why doesn't anybody give a damn about Cam Ward? Like, why? Why did I have to wait for the replay to hit next gen and NFL plus to even be able to watch Cam Ward? Why wasn't he on national TV? Why didn't NFL Network have Cam Ward going against the Bucs? It drove me crazy. I don't think people are excited enough for this guy. And yeah, I thought his first action was exactly what I expected him to be fearless, trying hard throws, impressive throws.

7:53Derrik Klassen: His mechanics weren't always great. And a lot of the time it didn't matter because he's got such a strong arm that he can just fire it in there anyway. And he's borderline reckless. Yeah. If you hadn't brought up the whole shot, Derek, I was going to where he was just like, ah, screw it. I can do it. And he could not have been more wrong. Like it was a straight up dropped interception. So it was a perfect encapsulation of the good and the bad of Cam Ward. But I think that's going to make him a very fun guy to watch.

8:21Robert Mays: Stylistically, he's a blast. And I think you got a little bit of all of that, even only a handful of snaps that cover to hole shot. They show single high before the snap. He actually changes the play. He checks to something and they bail out into cover, too. And he just gets fooled or just didn't care. I'm not exactly sure where it lands on that spectrum. But either way, that's what you're getting with Cam Ward. And that big crosser, he hits a Ridley, Derek, he's actually kind of a little late on that. But the arm is good enough where it's like, and he was open enough where he just kind of fires that thing in there.

8:50Robert Mays: And Derek, we talked about this last week and just the units that could really surprise us this season. And I talked about the Titans offense because I do think they have the capacity to sneak up on some people because of the offensive line play and the uptick in quarterback quality. And watching them in that game, I want to say this one time, and I'm not going to say it again for the rest of the podcast. I know it's preseason. I know it's preseason. I don't want to have this caveat about everything we're going to talk about. I know it is. That's an overarching thing for everything we're going to discuss.

9:21Robert Mays: Under that umbrella, everything they showed me in that game got me more excited about watching this team. Even just the concepts in general and some of the stuff that they're trying to do. A lot of five-man concepts. There's going to be a lot of empty protection where they put a lot on that offensive line. And they're going to give him options because they think he can handle it. And some of the wrinkles, like the little fast motion to get Ridley into that crosser, the mesh that he hit on third down, the quick throw to Chico Conco on third down. And I think Chico Conco fits that style of play.

9:49Robert Mays: Like you're going to spread things out and give him options. That's where Chico is best. So there are just a lot of different layers to what I saw from the Titans offense, even in preseason, where I'm like, yeah, I think my excitement about this and wanting to tune into this every week, I think it's kind of warranted based on the early returns, Derek.

10:05Dave Helman: And you know, the biggest difference to me between watching Cam Ward in this one game again, I know it's preseason versus like literally any other snap of the Titans offense last year. The quarterback was just doing stuff faster and he wasn't always right. Again, that cover two hole shot, he's way too aggressive. The time where I mentioned on that third and five where he pulls the rip forward and just bails out of the pocket, he was wrong. But he just does things faster. And I think when you are as talented as he is, he's like a B minus athlete. But then again, the arm talent, like Dave mentioned, is probably closer to a, especially with all his flexibility and stuff like if you're just doing things faster and giving yourself a chance to go make a play once you're talented enough.

10:42Dave Helman: And once you start to work out some of the kinks of, OK, what are the things that don't work? Then, yeah, you're going to be able to do some pretty special stuff. So I'm again, I don't know exactly when he's going to hit that stride, but I feel pretty confident that we're going to get we're going to get some really good play down the stretch.

10:56Robert Mays: and we didn't mention that out route to calvin ridley that he layers over the flat defender that was just beautifully talked in there and again this is where arm talent comes out where the arm strength is fine but he's a layered thrower and again that's the distinction between arm talent and arm strength he has arm talent he is a creative thrower that has some clubs in his bag and i'm

11:15Dave Helman: excited to watch what this looks like he he can control his arm without straining which is a huge difference from we're going to talk about jj mccarthy a little bit later but like he strains on every throw and throws 100 miles an hour. It's just different than watching a guy like him. Ward.

11:29Derrik Klassen: If you go back and watch those, some of those throws, the layered one that you just mentioned, and I think the deep over too, that's what I mentioned about his mechanics. Like some of those throws, he's not even like stepping into it and having the motion that you would prefer. He can just do that. He can do it from a standstill. He can do it while he's backpedaling and you'd prefer it not to be that way, but it's, it's really fun that he can, and it probably can lead to some really creative moments where he can make things happen. If the play's breaking down or if it's not going the way that it's supposed to, it's not always going to be good, but like I said, I think it's almost always going to be really fun.

12:08Robert Mays: If I had to guess my other takeaway from this game is Calvin Ridley is going to get 150 targets this season. Yeah, I just, I, it's going to happen. And I think it's a better offensive environment. I think he has a chance to have a much more productive season than you might think with a rookie quarterback that in a bottom five offense from last season. Let's get to the other first round quarterback who had played a lot last week for the Giants and Jackson Dart. Derek, your early impressions of the Jackson Dart experience in New York.

12:36Dave Helman: It was like fine, which honestly what I thought of him going in was was better than I would have expected. Like there were, I think, compared to some of his peers, like what they were asking of him was pretty pared down. It was a lot of rollout. It was a lot of go balls. It was a lot of RPO stuff like they really didn't make him play a lot of NFL quarterback. But there was one rep where he. So he takes his drop back and he actually kind of drifts a little bit at the end of it into his right tackle and he gets pressure, but he feels it pretty quickly and slides up a couple of times and rips a dig route.

13:07Dave Helman: And I'm like, OK, if we can start to do that a little bit more cleanly, then that's what NFL quarterback looks like. I also thought in terms of like the good stuff, I was really impressed with how willing he seems to be to just get absolutely smoked by a defender. On the touchdown. He gets destroyed on the touchdown. Obliterated. And like that was something he did show in college. And if that's coming out of college, it was something I worried about where I was like, is this going to look like early Geno Smith, where you're just like taking way too many hits and it's leading to bad balls and interceptions?

13:37Dave Helman: Or is it going to be like later career Geno Smith, where you can actually hone that and use that to where you're putting yourself in good positions to make throws? I think still to be determined but again the fact that he's placed so fearless I thought was good my biggest concerns were one they didn't ask him to do a lot and again I know it's week one preseason we'll see how that unfolds but also every throw to the sideline was just bad like he missed he put a like a flat rollout throw like at a dude's ankles which was bad he I don't remember who he was throwing to but it was just like a five yard hitch route he throws it like five yards out of bounds that one was bad and then there was another like deep 12 yard out that he puts that you know if it's a better corner is probably picked off so like those outside throws I think worried me a little bit you watch probably watch a decent amount of Jackson Dart in the SEC

14:20Derrik Klassen: Dave I I did and that's I feel like preseason and just watching a guy in the NFL for the first time for me is an exercise in dropping my biases I I didn't like I didn't love Jackson Dart as a as a draft prospect Ole Miss's offense is incredibly hard to translate to the NFL I attended LSU so there's probably some inherent bias against Ole Miss thrown in there somewhere as well so like I take all of that into it and like his first possession you know he missed he missed like an inbreaker pretty badly on the first possession I think it was on like third down and I was like yeah okay this is what I was worried about and you kind of feel it snowballing But then he got out of it, in my opinion, just in the for the sake of like making an impression.

15:10Derrik Klassen: Y 'all already mentioned the touchdown, but to stand in there, take a hit, deliver a good ball for a touchdown. I know it was just a go ball, but he had the confidence to throw it. He had the tenacity to stand in there and deal with the pressure and the contact. I was very impressed. And as it went from there, I was like, you know what? If I can leave everything that I thought before on the doorstep and not worry about it, I liked what I saw. And it's just a starting point, but it gave me a very good impression where I was like, OK, he's playing confidently. He's doing the right things more often than not.

15:43Dave Helman: I liked it. Can I I want to throw out something that I kind of just thought of with all the ways that I think they were asking him to use and the type of athlete he is and his ability to just stand in there and get exploded. I think ideally he kind of plays like the best versions of Carson Wentz with the Eagles, where it's a lot of RPO. It's a lot of like just chuck it deep down the sideline. He's a good scrambler. You can use them in the quarterback run game. Again, that was a very like fickle way to run an offense. But if they can get away with that for a little bit, I mean, there's something there.

16:11Robert Mays: Wondering if he's like a better deep outside the numbers thrower than Carson Wentz was. Like on outbreaking routes or vertical stuff, vertical routes, vertical routes, just because of how good he was on those vertical routes at Ole Miss. That's what he did. And so I do think there's probably a pinch more upside on those throws. And with Wentz, it was a lot of in breaking RPOs. What you saw in this game is it's access RPOs. I mean, the first throw of the game is an access hitch RPO. So I think the way that I see Jackson Dart right now, we'll see how he progresses. It's a lot of outside the numbers stuff because that's where he's most comfortable.

16:46Robert Mays: I mean, his best moments in this game. You mentioned the dig, Derek, that I actually thought was that was one of his better plays. It didn't get caught, but that was one of his better plays. But I thought his best throw of the day, it was actually on the same concept that Cam Ward hit Calvin Ridley on, where it's a little bit of an out route from number one. It's a it's a corner from the number two and then it's a flat route on the same side and he hits the corner route. It's a lot more open than Cam words was, but I thought that was a nice throw. Everything else is very simplified outside the number stuff.

17:15Robert Mays: They had a four by one to the right where they throws the backside slant. That's a very easy read. He throws the goal ball and then a decent chunk of his production in this game are flat routes and screens. There was a curl flat that went for like 30 yards and he completed two screens. so it's the numbers look pretty good but i think when you actually parse the production it was a pretty simplified version of what they asked of him in this game which is totally fine he's a rookie making his first start he's not going to be a starter but i think that context is important when you look at the box score and then when you look at what actually comprised his play this weekend the last thing i want to say is that even some of the positive plays and derek you alluded to this a little bit the pocket movement's pretty erratic right and even on the scramble that's probably a sack.

17:59Robert Mays: He is a decent athlete. He was a decent athlete in college, but that scramble, he puts his eyes down. He hope or Michael Hoy just kind of misses him. And then he scrambles for 18 yards. That's probably a sack. And then that completion that you're talking about where he slides to his left, it's, it's pretty erratic pocket movement. He's not very comfortable. And hopefully that's something that will increase with time. But I do think that was a theme that crept up multiple times while watching him in this game.

18:24Dave Helman: He at least looks like he was thinking about moving in the pocket though which given what he did at Ole Miss is an improvement so we're

18:30Robert Mays: getting somewhere the other point about the Giants I want to make before we move on to our next quarterback Abdel Carter had three pass rush snaps and he looked ridiculous on those three pass rush snaps and this is against the first team offense for the Bills and I understand it's preseason and I'm sure Deion Dawkins is out to lunch out there for his like 10 obligatory plays but he cooked those sirens torrents while lined up inside on one pass rush snap and then got Deion Dawkins with an inside move on another and then had Dawkins fighting for his life on that third snap where he was out there on an island against him.

19:02Robert Mays: So everything you could want to see from Abdul Carter in his preseason debut was on a full display this weekend. Yeah, that one is a little less like, I mean, you know, third, fourth overall pick or whatever

19:13Dave Helman: just looks like an insane person that just kind of is what it is. I will say because of some of the foot stuff coming out of the draft, I was like, is he going to look fully ready week one? He's fine. He looks ready. Yeah, foot's fine. He looks pretty ready.

19:26Robert Mays: It's funny because the Osiris Torrance has apparently been having a fantastic camp for the Bills too. And so Abdul Carter comes out there and just works him the first play that they were going against each other. And the fact that he's that comfortable working inside and that can get those three guys on the field together and get all your best players on the field together. Excited to watch. Think he's going to add some real juice to that defensive front. Don't think I'm saying anything overly surprising there. Let's talk about a couple more quarterbacks here. Derek, what did you think of the Tyler Shuck debut for the New Orleans Saints this weekend?

19:59Dave Helman: That one didn't really move me a lot, if I'm being honest. Like, I thought I know he made a couple of good throws. Like, I think the ball down the right sideline to Kelvin Austin, if that's a faster receiver, that's probably caught. And so I think the downfield accuracy looked good there. Obviously, he hits Mason Tipton on a double move. But like anybody, any quarterback in this class could have thrown that ball. otherwise they just didn't make him do a lot it was a lot of slants it was a lot of boot stuff and I thought even on a lot of their true drop back stuff he just looked a little bit slow in his drop back footwork and then I felt like he was not he was still not very comfortable when the pocket was condensing on him there were a couple instances where it was like he gets to the top of his drop he feels a body and there's an open throw to be made in rhythm and he doesn't make it because he feels a little bit of heat and that's just like always what I was going to be worried about with him.

20:50Dave Helman: So he just, there were a couple of decent throws, but I just felt like they didn't ask a whole lot of him. And there wasn't really that much that stood out and press, you know, to me,

20:59Robert Mays: Dave, you've alluded to this a little bit and how you've talked about Tyler Shuck. And I think it's a good thing to bring up in that if this doesn't work out in the sense that he doesn't like definitively beat out Spencer Rattler for the starting quarterback job and Spencer Rattler plays for a decent chunk of this season, and you've burned a top 40 pick in what was already going to be a lost year on a guy who doesn't play that much. That's a tough one. Like this isn't, I think when you're in this sort of rebuilding mode, the way that the Texans handled it with Davis Mills and the way that the Browns may be handling it this year with like Dylan Gabriel or Shadour Sanders, where we're going to take a dart throw on a third round or a later guy.

21:36Robert Mays: If he works out, hopefully he can be a backup for us. In the best case scenario, we get a Dak Prescott or a Russell Wilson, but we don't need it. When that guy is the 40th overall pick, the calculus on that changes. And that's why I think there's probably more urgency with what Tyler Shuck is going to give you more akin to what it would be if you drafted him in the first round, then a lot of the approaches these teams have taken, whether it's the Desmond Ritter experience or Malik Willis or all these guys taken in the third round where if they work out great, if they don't, you didn't really spend that much to go get that guy.

22:08Robert Mays: The Saints are in a different situation here.

22:10Derrik Klassen: Yeah. And, you know, I got some pushback on that that I think is fair is to say, you know, if Tyler Shuck doesn't win this job week one, it's not a condemnation on him or suggesting that he can't go on to become a good player, but he is not on a forgiving timeline with his situation. If he doesn't win the job for week one, that means it'll at least be a few weeks before he gets the opportunity. And again, how good do you have to be to remove the front office's doubt? I mean, you've got to be incredible. And not winning the job week one, And again, it's not a career ender, but it's just a sign that that is probably what's going to happen.

22:50Derrik Klassen: And so it's I just think it's a shitty spot for him to be in, to be honest with you. And you look at it and you're like, you know, there are so many interesting players that got drafted him. I mean, Will Johnson comes to mind with what you see he's doing in Arizona. Mason Taylor with the Jets, a couple other guys where you're like, yeah, in two years, Are you going to wish you had that guy or a quarterback who just didn't really have a very long runway? Obviously, we can't guarantee the Saints are going to draft a quarterback in the first round next year right now. But it is an educated guess that that could happen.

23:24Derrik Klassen: So I just I hate the timeline for him. Having said that, when I saw the social media highlight of Tyler Shuck throwing the pick six, I expected to go watch him and just think it was a train wreck. It was better than that. Like I thought Tyler Shuck was was fine in this game. He bounced back from the pick six to throw a touchdown. One thing that I think is worth noting is just situationally. He led an end of half field goal drive, which is an impressive thing for a first time NFL quarterback to do, even if it is preseason. So I like some of what I saw. I do agree with Derek. He was antsy in the pocket.

24:00Derrik Klassen: I don't think he dealt very well with pressure. there were, there was like one really nice throw, I would say. Cause yeah, I don't think the touchdown was anything super impressive other than that. He just didn't fold after throwing a pick six in a game. So I, I thought it was better than, than the pick six would have you believe, but yeah, it doesn't alleviate my concern for the big picture with Tyler Shuck.

24:24Robert Mays: A couple more early rookie impressions, Dave, you wanted to talk about jail and Milrow as part of this discussion. Why did you want to dig into what you saw from Jalen Mill wrote last weekend?

24:33Derrik Klassen: So this actually ties really perfectly with the conversation that we had the other day about JJ McCarthy and the Vikings and coaching and development has become so good that we can expect extraordinary results from guys we don't know a lot about or guys who maybe weren't even that impressive in college. And if it sounds like I'm getting over my skis a little bit, I understand Sam Darnold's the starter in Seattle. This is all on a longer timeline than soon. But Jalen Milrow on talent alone, the guy could have been a first round pick like he has all the talent you could ever want from a quarterback is just the consistency, the ability to see things, the ability to make the right decision, the ability to just be accurate on a down in and down out basis like that was his problem.

25:23Derrik Klassen: And that's why he was a third round pick instead of a top 30 pick. And for his first game ever, I just thought he looked really decisive and comfortable. There were some accurate throws. There was nothing that's going to take your breath away. Don't get me wrong. But like just consistently accurate, consistently making good reads and playing in rhythm. He made a really great throw on a bootleg to get the Seahawks into the red zone where he threw the ball to the spot and not to the receiver. And maybe that's elementary, but like that's what I want to see from Jalen Milrow. I want to see him do stuff like lead receivers.

25:59Derrik Klassen: So I thought it was just a very nice first step. And on top of that, he showed all the athleticism that makes him intriguing, right? Like the defensive linemen were crashing on him every time he handed off to a running back because they have to account for him. He had a 30 yard keeper. Just, you know, if you didn't already know he was fast now, you know, so all of the stuff we like about Jalen Milrow was there. And then I thought it was a really nice first step with the stuff that he's not so good at. So if I was a Seahawk fan, I'd be super excited by what I saw.

26:33Dave Helman: Yeah, with Mill Road, there was a chance that he looked like a complete disaster in week one, like especially in week one preseason where he hasn't played very much in the offense, doesn't really know the receivers playing behind a backup Seahawks offensive line where the first team offensive line is already not very good. Like there was a chance that this could have just looked like completely disastrous. And like Dave said, it didn't look great. I think everyone has probably seen the rollout throw, which was pretty obviously his best throw. But then everything else kind of looked a little bit more like what you expected, where he was a little bit up and down accuracy wise.

27:05Dave Helman: There was an inbreaker he tried to throw where I think it still gets completed, but he throws it a little late, a little high and a little bit behind. And it's just like when when the guy has a step and is going to be open like that, you would rather be able to hit him in the chest. And I think that's kind of always going to be the issue with Milrow, at least early on until maybe he irons out some of his mechanics. So, yeah, I don't think he's for as much as I have, like, complained about the why did the Seahawks go and sign Sam Darnold thing? I don't think Jalen Milrow is really going to be stabbing at his job in year one, but still a very exciting prospect to me.

27:37Robert Mays: The last rookie, less notable rookie quarterback performance, I think we should talk about. I had this a little bit when we did the beat writer notebook last weekend with our Browns writer, Zach Jackson, just because the game had happened the night before. But Stur Sanders, obviously, there's more interest in what he did last week and there's ever going to be a fair fifth round pick for a variety of reasons. He's more talented than a fifth round pick. The Browns wide open quarterback situation kind of drives the intrigue in that and a bunch of other reasons. Derek, your initial impressions of what you saw from Sturder Sanders and that very extended preseason debut, because every other quarterback on the Cleveland Browns is either hurt or 40 year old Joe Flacco.

28:17Dave Helman: kind of like I said with Cam Ward like I think for better or for worse it was a lot of what you expected like to me a lot of his best throws were either outside of the pocket like obviously he has the one rolling left where he hits the tight end in the end zone that one was solid he had one or two other throws moving out to his right where I think that's where you saw him be his most accurate as a passer and so some of those throws were solid he had one dig route that he just pinned on the guy when he was like almost backed up into his own end zone, which again, going back to college, some of those just like, hey, Travis Hunter's running the 16 yard dig here.

28:49Dave Helman: I'm going to pin it on him. Those were a lot of his best throws in college. So again, to see him already be able to translate that immediately to the NFL, I thought was nice. Some of the stuff that I was worried about were one, he's just like not an explosive athlete in any way, like whether it's in the pocket, whether it's his arm talent, whatever it is, he just doesn't have the pop that a lot of other guys do. Like I even so one of his better plays was I think it was the second touchdown he threw where he gets like a gap pressure from the left side back, picks it up and he like sidesteps to his right and then goes and throws the post out for a touchdown.

29:24Dave Helman: In terms of like process and understanding the game, I think that that is a good play, but his pocket movement to me just looks like he's moving in quicksand. And I think that's going to have to be quicker in like a real NFL setting. and then the ball is like low and behind on the back hip of the receiver like almost throwing it back into the db and it's just like i know that's a touchdown against the panthers second string defense but to me that does not feel like a touchdown versus a better defense so that stuff gave me a little bit of of a nick and then honestly his placement on a lot of the quick game stuff was kind of worrying to me like he threw what felt like a million slants in this game and a lot of them were pretty high and he was really making guys work for it and that that kind of worried me a lot so and actually the one other thing that really concerned me was not even a throw or anything there was I think about 10 minutes left in the second quarter uh it was a third and three and they do this like yo-yo motion shift with the number two receiver where he comes back to the formation and then goes out Shadur Sanders doesn't let him get set and snaps the ball and they get a penalty for it and it's just like we've got to be cleaner than that just little things like that which again that's just rookies are going to do that but that's the type of stuff I want to see get cleaned up a little bit I thought I alluded to this when we I did just

30:32Robert Mays: like a really quick breakdown before we did that show last weekend. The reason, the main reason that Dylan Gabriel, I think has been ahead of Shadour Sanders in the Browns quarterback competition is the operational stuff. It is spitting out play calls. It is getting things lined up. It's understanding all of the mechanics of the offense. I think Shadour just based on the way, how simple a lot of that Colorado offense was, how the place came in, just a lot of the details of it. He just doesn't have the foundational knowledge about the position that a lot of guys coming from college already have coming into the NFL.

31:04Robert Mays: And so I think that's one of the reasons he was a little bit behind Dylan Gabriel, despite what the practice reports would tell you. And so that's not surprising at all that one of those motions was maybe a little bit flubbed because I think that's just one of the areas where he's had to make up a lot of ground. And overall, I have a similar view on this. I think that that throw out of his own end zone, the dig is the best throw he had. You see that all the time on the Colorado tape. He's willing to step up in the pocket and fire that ball over the middle of the field. And he's accurate when he does it.

31:30Robert Mays: I think it's one of the best things he does. I was actually surprised about the plays he made outside of the pocket were more impressive than I expected them to be given some of his limited athleticism, like off schedule. Shadrur Sanders is not something I necessarily thought I would see in the first preseason game, but I thought there were some nice moments there. I'm with you on that. The second touchdown where that looks great when there's one, if you look at the right side of the offensive line, there's absolutely zero penetration on that side. And so he doesn't have to worry about anything.

31:59Robert Mays: Anytime there was like an actual mucky pocket, you saw him get a little bit jittery. And the amount of times he tried to escape out the back of the pocket is something that you just can't consistently do when you're not a very good athlete.

32:10Dave Helman: He was doing the mass scrambles, dude, which like you just, nobody can do that. Nobody really should do that. And for him to be, you know, like a C-level athlete trying to do it, that was like, I don't know, man.

32:21Robert Mays: It's one of those games where it was a mixed bag for all the reasons that we're talking about. I want to see more. I thought it was, there were enough impressive moments where I'm like, okay, Like, let's see how this goes over the course of the rest of the preseason. And the unfortunate part about that is now he's hurt and now he's not going to be able to play this weekend. And so I have no idea. It's probably going to be like four quarters of Snoop Huntley for the Browns this weekend in their second preseason game.

32:44Derrik Klassen: The script writers are really going to be in their bag if Dylan Gabriel can get into this game, because that's they're hoping he can. He's healthy enough with his hamstring to play against Philly. And we need that because there will be no measured reaction. Like Dylan Gabriel will either be good and everybody will say, see, shut up about Shadur. Or Dylan Gabriel will be bad and it will be Shadur should be QB1. Like there, as usual, there's no in between here. So I just, I hope we get to see Gabriel for the, for the reaction of it all.

33:18Robert Mays: I'll just say this now. I don't know what conversation I was kind of saving it for, whether it was the Browns preview or just the, my day that I spent there. and in conversations with the people in that building, even just watching practice that day. I understand where people watching practice are watching some of the throws that Shadur makes and say, oh man, like when he's out there, like you see some of the arm talent. He took five sacks in the practice I was at. Like that, it's just, you're not gonna notice that as much during a training camp practice because obviously he's not getting brought down.

33:46Robert Mays: But I think the timing he's playing within the pocket has been a concern. And then in talking to people there and then seeing some clips from practice previously, Dylan Gabriel is just playing much more on time within that offense. If you watch just how he's progressing on time with what they're asking him to do, it's just much more efficient and proficient at this stage than it is for Shadour Sanders. And it's just so hard with context with preseason. Like there was a pick he threw in Dylan Gabriel in one of his worst practices a couple weeks ago. And at the snap, there's a pressure look and he checks the protection correctly, which he has done consistently throughout camp.

34:23Robert Mays: He has a very good handle on this stuff. The receiver to the left side thinks that he's checking the route. And so the receiver stops and it's an interception. If you're watching practice, there's no way for you to know that. And so there are just so many different layers to what we see and how we process it coming out of these things. And I think that's where we can explain some of the disconnect between Dylan Gabriel looks like a mess and then people in the building saying Dylan Gabriel is definitively ahead of Shadour Sanders and whatever quarterback competition that we're having right now.

34:54Robert Mays: So I just think it's important context to be putting into this as we talk about how this is all going to go. Yeah.

35:01Dave Helman: And like, I feel like rookies playing on time, trying to do the right thing is always going to lead to more mistakes than rookie playing not on time and like looking for the perfect play later in the play. Like it's just naturally how that thing is going to look.

35:15Robert Mays: So I'm curious to see Dylan Gabriel when he does get a chance to be out there, but he's also hurt. And so I think that's just thrown a wrench into what this competition looks like at this stage. Last quarterback we wanted to hit here. He's not a rookie quarterback, but it's pretty much our first impression of him. And that is JJ McCarthy and what he did for the Vikings last weekend, Derek, you alluded to it a little bit earlier. What did you see from JJ McCarthy in the 2025 debut for the Vikings now asserted starter?

35:43Dave Helman: Unfortunately, it was not as many reps as I would have liked. I would have liked to see, I think the starters were only out there for a drive I would have liked to have seen two or three um the throw the outbreaker he makes to Addison I think that's where you see what you want out of JJ McCarthy where it's just like yeah yeah like it's just like 16 yards down the field just ripping it to his guy and it's like okay if we can do that pretty consistently and protect him in a way that he's going to be able to make those throws um that's fine there was also a dig throw where he tried to like put it 100 miles an hour and he's like trying to throw it right at the break and really make sure he catches his guy in stride puts it three yards over his head and the guy has no chance to get it and that's like very clearly to me not a miscommunication of timing or where the route needs to be that's just like JJ just straight up over through the ball and like I think again by nature of the fact that he is a thrower that when he throws he's putting everything into it I think that style of throwing can naturally lead to just a little bit more of erratic ball placement now it's kind of the issue again that I've brought up many times with him before even in the draft process like Baker Mayfield like Baker Mayfield can throw it through a keyhole the way that we saw from JJ McCarthy on that throw to Addison he also because he's doing that sometimes you grip the ball a little too tight and you just like overshoot a guy by four yards and so I'm just hoping that's something he cleans up a little bit more as he gets used to feeling how the bullets are flying again because again once you haven't played for a year it can be tricky to feel the timing of that all that it was kind of a

37:06Robert Mays: all or nothing experience with the Vikings offense in that game all the play action stuff where he can put his foot in the ground and really fire things look great. Anytime he had to show a little bit of nuance on third down or in the pure drop back game, you saw some of the limitations and shouldn't be a surprise for a guy who is 22 years old and through 720 passes in his college career. Like this is going to be a process, but I do think that this offense can be constructed in such a way that you can kind of paper over some of those limitations. Like this team was seventh in the NFL and play action rate last season.

37:39Robert Mays: I bet that goes up this year. I bet they lean on it even more. And one of the reasons Dave, I think they can lean on it even more is because the running game is going to have more teeth to it. And so the marriage between those two things, I think allows you to even step further into that world. You don't need a good running game to use a lot of play action. This has been something we've understood for a very long time, but when you have one, I think that it all starts to compliment each other a little bit more. And I think you can lean into it even more in part because you're not in those third and fives when you can't use play action.

38:12Robert Mays: So I think they're set up to give him a chance to succeed. But I do think that what we saw last weekend showed you some of the limitations and where they currently exist.

38:20Derrik Klassen: This has the potential to be a well-rounded, devastating offense. I mean, the additions on the offensive line, the running backs are good. I'm really excited about Jordan Mason being part of this thing. I think that could be incredibly explosive and JJ, it's not a throw. It doesn't really give you a lot of insight into whether he's going to be a good quarterback, but he picked up a fourth and four with his legs. Like he's, he's an athlete. He can run, he can do stuff like that. That is very valuable when you talk about staying on the field. So yeah, honestly, I'm with Derek. I had to check myself when I was watching this game.

38:57Derrik Klassen: I think I had it on my laptop and I was doing something else and they came out for the second series and I realized it was Sam Howell and not JJ. And I was like, no, what are we doing? I need more. But then I looked at it and I was like, yeah, they ran 13 plays like that. You know, they probably wanted to run 10 to 15 and the first drive was successful. So it makes sense, but I just want to see more. I was very disappointed that he didn't get another possession.

39:24Robert Mays: Now that we've gotten the boring quarterbacks out of the way. We're going to talk about the real marquee players here in the offensive lineman that we watched this weekend. But first, let's take a quick break.

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43:38Robert Mays: let's dig into the first round offensive tackles that we got to watch this weekend Derek this is not surprisingly something you wanted to include in the show but I was more than willing to dive into this with you let's just go in order here start with Will Campbell the fourth or fourth overall pick from last year's draft by the New England Patriots your first impressions of Will Campbell from last weekend I mean funny enough almost like

44:01Dave Helman: the player we just talked about, JJ McCarthy. I just wish we got to see more. He only was out there for, I think like 11 or 12 reps. Um, and to me, they didn't like a lot of the plays were reps where it's just like, he didn't have to show a lot. Um, I think on the first play they had him moving out into space. And like, that's where I think you see the value of Will Campbell, like really flying out into the corner.

44:20Robert Mays: They ran two pin poles with him where he was really out in space and he looked very, very comfortable.

44:24Dave Helman: He can move like to me, even for his me being a little bit lower on him. I think there's no doubt in my mind that he's a good enough athlete to do those what we would consider like weaponizing a tackle in the run game like I think he can absolutely do that stuff in space um I just thought you know kind of like I when I watched him in college I think some of the pass protection stuff I still even though he didn't have like a clear loss and again maybe this is me just having like an optical illusion issue with him it just looks wrong like he you can just tell that he's a guy who doesn't take up a lot of space and again, I just worry, what's that going to look like when he sees, uh, you know, will McDonald later this season or, or like a Jalen Phillips, like just those caliber of pass rushes.

45:06Dave Helman: I just, I want to see it.

45:08Robert Mays: I had the exact same takeaway, all the stuff, the movement stuff in the run game, the two pin pole reps. I mean, he's a finisher. You saw like the mindset, the aggressiveness, like he's, he's a cat out there. Like in a preseason game, the, the, the commanders, defensive players were not enjoying playing against will Campbell. And I totally understand that even when it wasn't in space, I mean, he was getting good movement on a couple of those double teams with Jared Wilson. Like I'm excited to see how that all comes together. But in the first time he was really in like a one-on-one pass pro situation, you see Jacob Martin get right into his chest.

45:39Robert Mays: Like I don't, you don't want to be overwhelmed by some of these cliches we talk about in the pre-draft process, but that lack of length does show up. And so I thought that there was some really nice moments as a run blocker. And then some of the limitations already in pass pro, you see it. So we'll see what happens when those rushers get a little bit better, Dave. But there was some good and I think some let's wait and see with Will Campbell's debut.

46:03Derrik Klassen: There's a line in office space where they're talking to their attorney about what prison is like. And the lawyer says, from what I understand, you need to kick somebody's ass the first day so people know not to mess with you. And I feel like that was Will Campbell's approach to his preseason debut where he was like, you know what? I'm not going to win every rep, but I'm you're going to feel me. I'm going to kick some ass. I'm going to finish every play. I'm going to try to put as many guys on the ground as possible. So people know that I mean business and I'm sure the Patriots love it. Like that's a very Mike Vrabel thing.

46:38Derrik Klassen: He clearly plays with an edge that Mike Vrabel would want a team to play with. So I loved all of that. And yeah, he looked great in out in space on the poll plays. yeah, I didn't see anything that makes me think he's going to be a rookie all pro or anything like that, especially when it comes to pass pro. But if that's the attitude you bring to your first day of work, I think that's a successful first step.

47:02Robert Mays: I'll say that. And obviously the strip sack is a stunt where him and Jerry Wilson get beat. And that's something that they'll work on that. I mean, that's a timing thing. Those are two rookies playing with each other. You'll start to feel that stunt as you play together a little bit more. So even though that's probably the biggest low white of the game. I think that's something that you expect to be cleaned up. The other element of this, that's worth bringing up on one of those pin pole reps, they're getting Travion Henderson out in space and Oh boy, are they going to be doing that a lot? And we talked about this right when they drafted him, Derek, where dropping him into that offense, he's already the most explosive playmaker you have at this point, even if you include Steph Diggs and to see them get him the ball in space to see the kickoff return touchdown.

47:44Robert Mays: and I mean he had like four targets in this game like they are going to include him in a lot of layers of this passing game because he might be their most explosive pass catcher he was one of those players where I I think with some of the rookies I think there's one level of rookie

48:01Dave Helman: watching rookie in preseason where it's just like okay does he look like he belongs out there like does he just look fine and I think a lot of guys that's just the box that you're trying to check and then there's a handful of guys where you're like oh that guy obviously looks like an NFL caliber athlete Henderson was one of them again the kickoff return some of the stuff they're doing out in space even on I want to say it was maybe the last play they had with the starters where Drake may like scrambles out to his left and he scores the touchdown even just watching Henderson out of the backfield make his cut on his route I was like he's moving man like he's just very obviously one of the most explosive and quick players on the field and that says nothing of like how good of a pass protector he is, how just like smart he is with all the stuff that he handles the offense and how much they clearly trust him both at Ohio state.

48:46Dave Helman: And now it seems like new with new England. So I'm just, he's a player that I wanted to hope would be good going into the season and very, very strong first impression.

48:56Robert Mays: Let's get to Armand Membu, the seventh overall pick in last year's draft. This is one of those debuts where it's like box checked. that that was my takeaway from the arm on membu experience in his first collection of plays with the jets you see the power you see his ability to move people in the run game a couple mental mistakes in the run game just identifying people but derek even in past protection he's a big strong man but him getting to his spot setting up like he looks fluid out there i'm really excited about what this is going to look like with him getting dropped into what is already a pretty talented Jets offensive line.

49:32Dave Helman: Yeah. Like you, like you said, you had a couple of wrong place, wrong time type of mistakes, which again, for a rookie, I'm a lot more okay, especially in your first preseason work, just like living with that. If it's a problem by week 12, then we're going to start to have some conversations, but for now, who cares? It's again, do you look like you belong out there physically? And with Membu, it's, there's no question. Like he just, he is going back to college. The reason I loved him one, like you mentioned, he's just a smooth operator. He never feels like he's panicking in his movement in his pass sets and that was part of why I really loved watching him but then also it's just he I think more than any of the other tackles in this class and there were some really good ones when he really gets two firm hands on you the reps over like you just there's nothing that's that's gonna happen like once he gets you it's done and I think you saw that in a couple of instances both in the run and in the pass in this game so he just yeah I don't even know if he was necessarily the best week one rookie tackle but he'd very obviously check the box to me.

50:27Robert Mays: The Packers starters were out there. I mean, there were Sean Gary's out there and Brent Cox, who is a rotational piece that the Packers really like number 57. He was out there for a couple of those reps and he more than held his own. So initially impressed by the Armand Membu experience with the jets. Let's get to Kelvin banks. The next rookie offensive tackle drafted. Derek is already smiling as we're going to say, just go, you have this, this, this is why

50:53Dave Helman: I wanted to talk about the rookie tackles.

50:55Robert Mays: I was wondering if it was this or Connerly is what you were trying to shoehorn into this discussion.

50:59Dave Helman: It's a little bit of both, but Connerly was great. We'll get to him. Banks is, everyone who listened to us during the draft season knows that this is just the kind of tackle I love. I mean, 6 '5", 315, long arm, like just that type of tackle. I thought he was like truly really, really good. Some of the movement stuff, like he is always going to be a little bit more heavy footed than some of the other guys, but I still think that he's like a very confident and smooth operator considering that. And then there were just a couple of reps to me where, one, you know, we mentioned Will Campbell struggling a little bit with some of the games.

51:31Dave Helman: There was one rep where him and Trevor Penning actually did a great job of passing off a twist and Banks just kind of held his own there and did a really good job of getting in front of that. And then there was another rep later on where they get into the end zone or to the red zone. They're maybe on the 12 yard line, whatever it is. The edge rusher outside of Banks immediately drops out and he immediately looks over at Penning to his right and just mauls the defensive lineman next to him, puts him on the ground. And I'm like, hey, man, it's a really good way to help out your guard next to you when you just have that instant punch, put this guy on the ground.

52:01Dave Helman: And I just for as good as, again, some of the other rookie tackles are, I really think Banks is the guy where if he just punches you straight in the chest, it probably hurts the most. And he's just a player that, again, I was worried maybe if this was going to go wrong, it would be like some of these guys just look a little bit too quick for him, at least in week one. Not a concern for me at all.

52:20Robert Mays: you thought he was more impressive than Connerly

52:24Dave Helman: I would say it was don't don't do that yeah make me choose between my children make me choose I would say it was probably about equal but it goes back to like stylistically I just like watching the banks type of player a little bit more and then Josh Simmons obviously is the last one to

52:41Robert Mays: round this out Dave Josh Simmons has been one of the stories of training camp and the fact that he might be able to step in as a competent, maybe above average left tackle for the Chiefs from day one would be a coup for them. Your initial impressions of Josh Simmons in Kansas City in his first game action.

52:57Derrik Klassen: I thought I thought it was really good. I was honestly, I was kind of relieved that he was just good because like, I don't have to get on here and gush like he's an all pro already. Like he, he looked fine. I love his, his movement skills. Like the way the quickness with which he kicks out. I just don't think there are going to be a ton of guys that can like beat him around the corner. And he's got plenty of power. He didn't do anything overwhelming in this game, but you just see it with every snap. Like he's such an athletic guy, really my bigger impression. And I know that's not the topic, but again, going back to what I said about Tyler Shook, it's the same thing where, you know, there was a clip of Kingsley Suamataia getting just dump trucked in this game and it made the rounds on social media.

53:47Derrik Klassen: I thought he played a lot better than that clip would have you suggest as well. Like, I don't think he was completely terrible. So the combination of Josh Simmons, just continually checking boxes along with playing fairly well with the guy next to him. I thought it was, it was super encouraging. I just, I don't think Simmons did anything incredible in this game, but, but I don't

54:09Dave Helman: need him to either I'm already plenty impressed in the best way possible he was the most boring rookie tackle to go back and watch which again for all we need remarkable tape yeah for all we need from the Chiefs left tackle god I will take boring man and again it's not that he did anything wrong it's just like almost in the Will Campbell way there just weren't that many reps where it was like oh man they're really pressuring the left tackle here and so I just didn't feel like they asked a lot of him but he didn't make any mistakes so I was like all right if we can just get along with that for 17 weeks.

54:37Dave Helman: We'll be in a good spot.

54:38Robert Mays: The last offensive tackle talk here, Dave, you wanted to talk about the Pittsburgh Steelers offensive tackles who we're kind of getting a first impression of, right? We're moving Roger Jones back over to the left side. Try finally played a game last year. So an early impression, even if it isn't the first one from

54:54Derrik Klassen: these guys, I've been fascinated by them all camp and it got out to a, a very uninspiring start. Like Broderick Jones got hurt early in camp and just the reports coming out of Pittsburgh Latrobe were just that it didn't look very good. So I was I was very encouraged just to not encourage. I was very excited to just turn it on and see what it looked like. And then I got encouraged because they played 15 snaps and they were going against Josh Hines Allen and Trayvon Walker. And so we don't have to do a lot of guessing like this was not them going against training camp bodies. They went against a really good pass rush and I thought they looked pretty good.

55:35Derrik Klassen: Like it was a very encouraging first impression for me. No pressures allowed. No sacks allowed. They kept the pocket clean on Mason Rudolph's touchdown in the opening minutes of that game. Troy Fatanu did draw an illegal hands to the face, but I thought him in particular. Broderick Jones didn't do anything wrong, but I was so impressed with Fatanu going against Trayvon Walker. you're talking about a guy with 36 inch arms going against a guy who does not have a remarkable wingspan. And it looked like he was holding it. Like, you know, have you ever held a cat that's trying to scratch you and you're just trying to like, keep it away, keep it away from the important parts and keep from getting hurt.

56:18Derrik Klassen: That's what it looked like, but he did a good job. Like he was holding on for dear life all the time, but he, he did his job. And I, it was a very fun watch to see him deal with not the best edge rusher in the NFL, but maybe the physically freakiest. And he held his own. I thought it was really impressive.

56:35Dave Helman: I was so into how Fautanu played. I mean, I'm will fully admit to the audience. He is a player that I really liked coming out of college and I thought could be really good. But, you know, you kind of mentioned it a little bit, Dave. His hand placement to me is already like very thoughtful and impressive to me. Like he has a pretty good knack for I think especially younger tackles will have an issue of when they're really trying to punch it, guys, and extend. They'll lean a little bit too far. They'll get out over their skis and they'll just kind of lose themselves. Falatanu has a really good way of just making sure he's getting full extension from his torso without over leaning, without compromising his base.

57:10Dave Helman: It's like super impressive to me. And so I thought he played pretty well. Broderick Jones, I would like to see a little bit more of, you know, he didn't have like an egregious loss, but you can still tell he's, I think, a little bit more jumpy in his pass sets. He's a little bit more up and down in the way that he's leaning and lunging at guys and pass protection. So, but again, if he can just be fine and we get some of the movement in the run game, then that's probably acceptable.

57:34Robert Mays: The word I would use for like the ideal Roger Jones we see in 2025 is settled. If he's settled, then I think that this group can be really good. Cause when you watched him last year, you could just kind of see the gears turning. That's actually a pretty generous way of putting it. His head was spinning at times last year where he is just so clearly unsettled in everything he was doing in pass protection. And I had a really good conversation when I was in Latrobe with their offensive line coach, Pat Meyer. I was just so interested in so many of the guys he has in his group. And we went kind of one by one through them.

58:04Robert Mays: It was actually funny. I told him, I was like, let's go one by one. And we didn't talk about Isaac Salabalo. And he's like, you didn't ask me about Isaac Salabalo. And I was like, I don't have anything to ask. Like I know exactly who he is. I love him. Like he's, I truly love him. And what he brought up is that by moving Broderick over to the left side and having him play next to Salamalu, it has been one of those calming forces because last year, not only is he moving from the left side to the right, because Dan Moore is a left tackle only, but he's playing next to Mason McCormick for most of that season.

58:35Robert Mays: You have a guy who's moving positions to right tackle, and then you have a fourth round rookie who's never played in the league next to him. And so this has come up a lot as I've talked to offensive line coaches and offensive coaches in general about what it does playing next to the right people. We mentioned it last week, Derek, when we were talking about JC Latham playing next to Kevin Zeitler and just what that does for a young tackle, especially one changing positions. And so I think that's one thing to keep in mind as we try to figure out how settled that position may be for Broderick Jones as he's bounced around a little bit over the first couple of years of his career.

59:09Dave Helman: Yeah, I really hope it comes together because if that offensive line does come together, we've talked about it before. Like that kind of has to be the way for that team to be good. That's it. And at least at least Fautano looking as good as he did. And Broderick Jones not looking like he's totally swimming. Pretty good start. Pretty good start.

59:25Derrik Klassen: I'd be remiss if I didn't mention to because I was looking at it while I was taking my notes. Our guy Mike DeFabo wrote a really nice feature about Broderick Jones and Troy Fautano. So if if your hopes and dreams hinge on the Steelers offensive line, that's that's probably worth a read for sure.

59:42Robert Mays: We're going to take one more quick break and come back with our last set of first impressions.

59:50Derrik Klassen: Want to sneak peek every outcome? Digital twinning and take the lead in a world of what ifs to navigate the complexities of change with ease. Transform the everyday at Siemens. Recently, we asked some people about sharing their New York Times accounts. My name is Kayla. My husband and I use his email address to access the New York Times. Each day, we compete for who gets to do connections. Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day. And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day.

1:00:28Robert Mays: And he's like, I know, I just couldn't resist. You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails.

1:00:36Derrik Klassen: I really think our well-being as a couple depends on it. Thanks for looking into this.

1:00:42Robert Mays: Kayla, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times family subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com slash family.

1:01:00Robert Mays: Derek, you wanted to chat about the Niners defensive rookies. Not all of these are positive first impressions. What did you think of the Niners rookie defenders last weekend?

1:01:10Dave Helman: I will try at least to start with something positive to stay in the good graces of Niners fans. I thought what Sala was doing was really interesting. Like, I was glad to see him back in the fold. He was getting really aggressive with some of his blitz looks like maybe a little bit too ridiculous in the preseason, if we're being honest. But that to me, like when I think of the Niners defenses and they were good over the last handful of years, to me, some more of the loading the line of scrimmage, getting a little bit crazier with the blitz stuff is a little bit more emblematic of like the D 'Amico Ryan's era than it was to me.

1:01:39Dave Helman: the Robert Soler and not again that he didn't do any of that but that just to me felt a little bit more like a D 'Amico Ryan's thing so to see him immediately trying to do some of that stuff and really open up the playbook I thought was interesting however a lot of my trying to be optimistic about this defense was like oh these front players like someone will be good and I still have a lot of faith in Michael Williams who did not play in this game because he's been a little bit banged up but the other three the two defensive tackles CJ West and Alfred Collins and then linebacker Nick Martin. They left me wanting Collins, I think, was fine.

1:02:15Dave Helman: Like he had a couple of nice plays where, you know, they really weren't anywhere. I, you know, put some red check marks next to the plays or anything like that. I think he was OK, just not inspiring in any way. CJ West was getting moved a lot, especially when teams got four hands on him. And that was pretty concerning to me, again, for a Niners defense that like the whole issue they had last year was they couldn't defend the run. And then Nick Martin, the linebacker, you see his speed like he can really run to the sideline and he he put himself in position to make a number of tackles and then you watch him try to break down for some of those tackles and he's just a little bit stiff in the hips and can't make the play and it's just so I really was hoping that week one of the rookies I was betting on was going to work out a little bit better and I'm really hoping week two looks a lot more encouraging a scale of one to ten how worried are you uh I would say like a seven

1:03:06Robert Mays: and maybe seven after one preseason game that's enough to put you at a seven is that mostly just because you're so bought in on the niners now that you feel like you can't walk it back yeah

1:03:15Dave Helman: i feel like i over indexed a little bit too hard and then watching where like my collective grade for those three players was like a 35 out of 100 i'm like this is this is tough the good stuff in

1:03:27Robert Mays: the first preseason game also apply to the bad stuff it's still one preseason game yes yeah i

1:03:32Dave Helman: I want to be clear they might look fine later, though.

1:03:35Derrik Klassen: OK, but if you if you're not good in a preseason game, that's so much harder to write off than if like being good in a preseason game is whatever. We've seen plenty of guys succeed in that environment who don't succeed in the regular season. But if you're not succeeding in this environment, how much faith am I supposed to have that it's going to apply to the regular season?

1:03:57Robert Mays: I mean, I have two very obvious examples on the other side of that. The Cam Newton preseason debut was so abysmal. I mean, that's the historic one, right? And C.J. Stroud was the other one. Cam Newton was horrendous in the 2011 preseason. And then he comes out and has this monster week one game against the Packers. I believe it was the Packers. And then C.J. Stroud was the Cardinals. That's right. It was the Cardinals. And then C.J. Stroud was very bad in the preseason and then had one of the best rookie seasons we've ever seen from a quarterback.

1:04:27Derrik Klassen: Okay. Let me rebut, though, because so much of that is mental. Whereas like if you're a DT and you're just getting blown off the ball in the preseason, like that's a lot harder to fix in three weeks than how well you're processing or what the opposing game plan is, all that type of stuff. If you don't have it physically, it's concerning, not for your entire career, but at least for like September of your rookie year. Yeah, maybe.

1:04:53Robert Mays: I mean, these guys, when did they get into pads? July 28th. So how many padded practices are we talking about here? 10, right? It's still, it's still super, super. And that's a good Denver offensive line they played.

1:05:06Dave Helman: So, I mean, you know, it's, there's some caveats, I guess.

1:05:09Robert Mays: I can understand being a little bit worried, but we have a long way to go before actual football is played.

1:05:14Dave Helman: Yeah. I don't want my official panic meter to be like set in stone until the end of preseason. Give me the rest of the two games and then I'll see where we feel going into week one.

1:05:22Derrik Klassen: The guy that needs to make an impact didn't play. Like if Michael Williams is a boss, then none of this matters. And that's why I'm not super worried about it.

1:05:32Robert Mays: Let's talk about another rookie defender here, but also offensive player. Your initial impressions of Travis Hunter in Jacksonville, Dave.

1:05:41Derrik Klassen: So if you watch this game, you know that there's not a lot to go off of in the actual stat sheet. He caught two balls and, you know, he played a handful of snaps on defense. It's not anything that's going to look super sexy in a box score. But the reason I just wanted to mention it, other than that, it's the number two pick who plays both ways. I was just super encouraged by what I saw from the Jags offense. Like Liam Cohen looks like he knows that it'll be a good idea to get Travis Hunter as many free releases as possible. felt like he was in like a stack every single time where, you know, Liam Cohen basically made it impossible for him to get pressed off the line, which that's super fun to think that he's going to have a lot of easy releases in this offense.

1:06:24Derrik Klassen: There were quite a few receiver screens from the Jags, which that's something easy that Travis Hunter can do without needing to worry about polishing his game. So I really enjoyed that. It gave me a lot of optimism for what he's going to look like in the offense. Defensively, this is so funny. Like you draw the exact worst type of matchup, but he had a really nice opportunity at a TFL on Caleb Johnson and just didn't have the horsepower to bring him down, which that's a big ask for a corner as slight as Travis Hunter to tackle Caleb Johnson. But I kind of, I chuckled when I saw that where I was like, yeah, welcome to the NFL pal.

1:07:04Robert Mays: We'll see what his usage looks like. How many early down snaps were getting from Travis Hunter on defense early in the season.

1:07:10Dave Helman: Yeah, that was like on either side, his his worst play. And that to me almost was actually I mean, he is a slider guy. So tackling is going to be a little bit of an issue. But that to me was actually like more of a mental error. Like he's the force defender and he like flies close to the line of scrimmage, like tight to the formation. I'm like, you're the boundary player. Like you have to be ready to force this and cut it back. So I think he just took a weird angle there. So and he kind of knew it, too. Like you see him miss the tackle and he just like grabs his helmet. He's like, oh, he was furious.

1:07:36Dave Helman: I do that. So I thought that was kind of funny in terms of his coverage, though. Again, they didn't really target him, but you just the movement skills are so obvious, man. Like the way that he's like speed turning on some of these is just like, all right, he's very obviously a very impressive cover corner. And then like you mentioned with the offense, it's not necessarily a surprise, but I do think it's notable that like on the I don't know, dozen plays that he spent on offense, I think only one he was on the line of scrimmage. And it was when he was in a tight bunch like tight to the formation where like it, I think they ran away from him anyway.

1:08:10Dave Helman: So I just, the usage of him, I think was the most notable thing here. Yeah.

1:08:15Robert Mays: And I think the structure of the offense and structure, it was exactly what you'd expect. 84 % 11 personnel, all condensed stuff, even a little motion with him on third and four to get that man's own tell, making things a little bit easier for the quarterback, the jet sweep to Deami Brown on fourth and one. This is what the Jags offense is going to be. Like I will see what happens when it's third and seven. and that offensive line has to drop back and we'll see what happens when it's first and 10 and that offensive line has to create some movement. But I do think that there are going to be a lot more layups within this thing over the course of the season.

1:08:46Robert Mays: And that's one of the reasons I'm excited to see it. The other first impression I wanted to discuss in terms of offensive structure, also in the AFC South, we got our first glimpse of the Nick Caley offense in Houston and what this thing is going to look like. I was really interested in this because his background, he spent a couple of years in Los Angeles as the Rams tight ends coach and passing game coordinator. But the majority of his time in the NFL has been in that new England Patriot system. And so you watch the first glimpse that we saw of this. And I do think it's going to be like a baby between what the Rams are and what the Patriots have been.

1:09:21Robert Mays: And I think that has a chance to be very cool. They're at 17, 17 % of their snaps there in 21 personnel, which not getting a lot of that in Los Angeles. I'll tell you that much, But in New England, that's exactly what sort of frequency we were seeing the last time Josh McDaniels was the offensive coordinator there. 17 % 21 personnel with the fullback had been ranked fourth in the NFL last season behind only the Niners, the Dolphins and the Ravens. And Josh McDaniels is last season with the Patriots. They ranked fourth at 19%. So it's exactly that. I mean, it's one game, but just as like a glimpse, it's like, OK, that's some New England stuff that we're going to get.

1:09:57Robert Mays: 62 % 11 personnel. And you saw some of the condensed formations that we get from the Rams in those 11 personnel looks. And then the other Rams ask wrinkle that I thought was very funny. There was a straight drop back from under center from Davis mills on the first drive of the game. And the Rams had really started leaning into that last year. So it's just going to be a hodgepodge of stuff from both of these places. And I'm curious if that makes it feel muddled and a little bit unfocused over the course of the year or if you get the best of both worlds as he tries to blend

1:10:28Dave Helman: those together it's going to be fascinating which look it might we might get to the point where it feels like they've thrown too much shit at the wall and they don't know who they want to be and all that stuff honestly I can live with that because what we got with the slow experience was it just felt like we were too stale it was too much of the same things it didn't feel like we had the variety when we needed it especially to me on like third you know you know true uh drop back downs and stuff. It just felt like they didn't have enough that they could go to. And part of that is you have young quarterback.

1:10:58Dave Helman: Part of that is the offensive line. Maybe it was not allowing you to get into a whole lot of different things. And then part of it again was, you know, slow. It was still a young play caller. Now, I think, you know, Kaylee is still a little bit young in that as well. But CJ Stroud's played a little bit more. They've tried to make these shakeups at the offensive line. So if I just feel even if quality wise, it's up and down by Halloween, if I just feel like they're trying to work out different kinks instead of trying to run the same ish offense the way that I felt with the slowic era, I'll have some like mild degree of enthusiasm by the end of the season.

1:11:30Robert Mays: You better because you got a lot riding on the Houston Texans after yesterday. I didn't want to bring that up, but yeah. The last thing I'll mention here, this is something that you won't be able to see in the structure of the offense, but I do think is notable. their offensive line coach Cole Popovich was actually the assistant offensive line coach for the Texans last year but he worked with Nick Cayley when they were both in New England so he's actually a New England guy and so the Niners tree they're like base pass protection rules are pretty rigid compared to a lot of other teams right like they'll the quarterback and this has change depending on where you're going.

1:12:09Robert Mays: Like the Lions, for example, the Lions have a similar base set of rules and pass protection to what the Shanahan tree does, but Jared Goff can change it at the line of scrimmage if he wants to. So you don't fall into like that level of rigidity. The Shanahan team, some of them, and I believe the Texans were one of them, the quarterback doesn't have that sort of control. In the New England system, it's as far away from that as you can possibly be. The quarterback can do anything. The quarterback does all the mic points and has all of the control at the line of scrimmage. This is what they did with Brady and this is what they've done forever.

1:12:42Robert Mays: And so Cole Popovich and Nick Haley both come from that New England pass protection world. And so when we're trying to figure out, okay, even if the offensive line personnel-wise is completely unsettled, how can this offensive line and pass protection be better than the one last year? These are some of the things that may point us in that direction, even as we have concerns about who's lining up in any of those five spots for the Texans in week one.

1:13:07Derrik Klassen: but what I'm hearing is we're going to put that on CJ Stroud and that makes me more optimistic

1:13:14Robert Mays: about my belief in the Texans I tend to think that's how I want my pass protection systems to be in the NFL at this point yes I want them to be as flexible as possible I want the quarterback to have a lot of it some guys can handle it some guys can't but I think that it just sets you up for success and as so many the game I keep going back to we've talked about this game a million times, the Texans game against the Packers last year and the just stranglehold that Jeff Halfley put Bobby Slowick in that offense in by what he was doing, mugging guys up before the snap and just manipulating them over and over and over again.

1:13:45Robert Mays: The playoff game against Kansas City, like teams just were able to pick on them way too easily. So even if it's a learning process for CJ Stroud, as he gets more of the stuff put onto his plate, I think the rewards that are waiting for you at the end of the road are probably going to be worth it.

1:13:59Dave Helman: and and it's just like that's the natural progression of like you know football cyclical right where it's like now that we're having more sim pressures defenses are doing a little bit more in terms of their fronts we're getting weirder stuff the natural answer is like yeah offenses in terms of protection have to have more answers than compared to 10 years ago when everyone was trying to be the Seahawks legion of boom and just rush for and do all that that's why the Shanahan system was able to succeed where they were like well if you're not going to do anything interesting we can just have these base rules run outside zone and we'll be good yeah and I also

1:14:28Robert Mays: think that there are different ways to do this. You know, the Niners, they've had a lot of success and what they'll do is they'll put it on the quarterback just in a different way. The quarterback has to throw hot if the rules are going to stay the same. And they've had a lot of success doing that. Some teams, the quarterback may not have as much control at the line of scrimmage, but they run a ton of different protections. So it's hard to understand what you're going to get in any given moment. And then when you get to the Patriots side of this and other teams do this too, like Josh Allen has all cart ability at the line of scrimmage.

1:14:57Robert Mays: Patrick Mahomes has all a card ability at the line of scrimmage in a similar way that Tom Brady would have, then you're putting a ton on the quarterback to make the right decisions. There are benefits and drawbacks to all of this, but I think it's just notable to point out that the Texans are going a very different direction on that side of things from what they were doing a year ago. A couple more things I wanted to hit on here. I wanted to talk about the Georgia guards. I was just, I think both of those guys, I guess there's three of them now with Jared Davis playing guard for the Patriots, but I was mostly talking about the guys who played guard in college, Tate Rattledge in Detroit and Dylan Fairchild in Cincinnati.

1:15:32Robert Mays: They're both linchpin players in offenses that have like very real Superbowl aspirations. They're day one starters. And Derek, I thought both of them played really well in their preseason debuts. Dylan Fairchild played with the starters at like the starting offensive line. Tate Rattledge played with some of the backups from the lions offensive line with, you know, Giovanni Manu out there and a backup center. But I was impressed with what I saw from both of those guys. And it actually makes me feel pretty good about what had been kind of quote unquote unsettled spots for these offenses, because we'd never seen these guys play.

1:16:05Robert Mays: But I think there's reason to believe that those question marks can become good answers for both of these teams.

1:16:11Dave Helman: That's interesting. I was a little bit more hesitant to get excited about the way either of them played. I think to me, I, so they are, I think they're what they were in college, which is to say when they when their strike lands, holy shit, man, like they're going to move somebody. They're going to instantly kill a pass rush rep like they're just going to take hold of you and they're going to be able to hold their ground. They're both just really out of control still to me, like Dylan Fairchild to me when I watched him a little bit, doesn't really bring his feet with him anywhere, which concerns me a lot.

1:16:44Dave Helman: And then Rattledge to me is a player where I feel like he's leaning a little bit too much. He feels like he can be heavy footed at times. So I still think this is not to say that I think they're going to suck, by the way. I just this to me, there was a clear like quality difference to me between watching some of the offensive tackles. And again, those guys were first round picks. So, duh, versus watching these guys who were more mid round guards where I was like, this is going to have some ups and downs to it.

1:17:08Robert Mays: See, I felt that way about Ratledge because that even in college, he had just like that, that play style. And there was a little bit of that. You see him leaning a little bit too much, but I thought that he played with good awareness and pass protection. He can move people in the run game, even at some of the one on one blocks he had in the run game. I thought that he was getting some decent movement. That's going to be a lot more volatile than I think it's going to be for Dylan Fairchild based on what I saw in that game. And I think that's OK. Like that's just Rattwidge's play style. But he looked like he belonged out there with Fairchild.

1:17:39Robert Mays: I was actually impressed with how settled it kind of felt from him in that game. He was passing things off really well. I thought they were moving off of double teams with good timing. And obviously he's playing with the starters. So that's hopefully going to look a little bit cleaner. But I, that was one of those things where I watched him work with Karis and Orlando Brown. And I'm like, Oh, this looks pretty good. Like them playing together. I'm actually very encouraged by the direction this is heading with rat, which playing with the backups, you saw a little bit more volatility, but I think I can understand that this is still pointed in a good direction.

1:18:11Derrik Klassen: I know exactly which play you're talking about, Robert. And it's it was funny because, like, I turned the Bengals game on and I call it bored, I guess, like for the first few snaps, I was like, OK, he's drawing a lot like he's doing a lot of double teams like he's not doing anything wrong. But this is just not very exciting. And then you get to like he has a nice rep and pass pro one V one where you're like, OK, that was cool. and then it's like the fourth thing in my notes him and Orlando Brown just beautifully passed off a stunt on like a 10 yard completion where it looked like they've been doing it for years like it and we have a great comparison because you talked about the play uh with Will Campbell against the commanders where they botched the hell out of it now my exact thought that's two rookies I get it and this is just one rookie playing with Orlando Brown who's done a lot in this league, but these guys looked like old teammates.

1:19:06Derrik Klassen: Like it was just seamless. And I like sat up in my chair where I was like, Whoa, that looked really good. Now the next thing I did was flip over to the other end zone angle, just to double check and make sure this was not Jalen Carter. And it was not. So I think that's worth mentioning. Like this was not the Eagles starting defensive line, but still some of the stuff he was doing, he had a really nice seal block on a toss to where he just got where he needed to be and walled off the lane. I came away from it really impressed. And it's a small sample size. It's two possessions. So not to say he'll never mess up, but I started the watch very unenthused.

1:19:45Robert Mays: And by the end of it, I was pretty jacked. I think that's a really good way to frame it. And I had the exact same thought about them passing off that stunt. It felt cohesive with those three playing with each other. And I thought that's what I was super encouraged by. And with Rattledge, I think it was some of the flashes that we see. It's going to be maybe a little bit up and down, but again, when he starts playing with the starters, what does that end up looking like? I thought there was some decent movements with Rallage on some of those double teams. Like I came away impressed with both of them.

1:20:10Robert Mays: Even if I agree with you, Derek, I thought that what we saw from Fairchild was much more just put together in that first glimpse that we saw from him.

1:20:18Dave Helman: Fairchild like mentally had it to me. Like that was not the concern. And then again, when he strikes, it looks really good to me. Again, it was just like some of the one-on-one reps. I was like, Like he's not bringing his feet with him the way I would like. And I think against maybe better players, that's going to hurt him. But I want to be very clear. I'm still much more excited about him seeing him out there than Cody Ford or Cordell Volson or whoever it's been for the last three years. Like this is not me saying they should not put him out there and be concerned about that.

1:20:45Robert Mays: That's why this is an important thing. It's actually why I wanted to mention it. With Routledge, it's can we get as good as we were on the offensive line last year? And I think that's a tough hill to climb. But I don't think we've talked enough. I'm up with this on myself. Hank Fraley coming back and how well coached that offensive line looks consistently should give us more faith that this can work out. And even if it's not as good as last year's line was with Ragnow and Kevin Zeitler, if it can be 90 % of that, the infrastructure and how well that group is taught absolutely plays into it. And again, Rattwich playing with like decent awareness in if you're uncovered, go look for work like that.

1:21:20Robert Mays: That's what I saw from Christian Mahogany last year as a rookie. Like their young players are very well coached. that's clear. And I think that should give us some confidence. So if that group can be almost as good as last year's offensive line, route, which has a huge point in that. And I think that remind, we talked about this a little bit on the contender show, the Bengals offensive line should be better. Like it should be a better group. And those flashes you got from Fairchild point you in that direction. Like what they've gotten from the left guard on that offense for the last like five years has been an absolute nightmare.

1:21:50Robert Mays: And it's one preseason game, but are my early impressions of what that left side of the line may look like this year. I feel much, much better about it than I have in the very recent past. All right. That is all we've got for today. This will be running on Friday. We will have, I believe, two training camp notebooks coming your guys' way this weekend. That is the plan as it currently stands. Beller can tell me if that's not the case. Yes. Two training camp notebooks coming your guys' weekend. It's hard to keep all that straight. one on Saturday, one on Sunday, and then we're going to have two more next week.

1:22:28Robert Mays: I believe we're going to have, I think, almost all of our beat writers have, will have appeared on these over the last couple of weeks, which I am very, very excited about. I think we're going to have like 23 or 24 of them by the time this all wraps up. So those could be coming your way on Saturday and Sunday. And then like we mentioned at the top of the show, the first edition of Building the Beast with Dave Hellman and Dane Brugler will be in your feeds on Monday. So please be on the lookout for that. for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.