Free agency day three: Maxximum Chaos

0:00Derrik Klassen: Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of TED's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. Let me share with you why smart finance leaders turn to Bill. They know that clarity isn't just helpful, it's strategic. As the intelligent finance platform, Bill uses AI to automate the busy work for nearly half a million businesses so they can focus on intentional growth. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply.

0:31Derrik Klassen: See offer page for details. Are you noticing your car insurance rate creep up even without tickets or claims? You're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry handles the legwork by comparing quotes side by side from over 50 top insurers so you can confidently hit by. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Jerry even tracks rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Don't settle for higher rates. Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash a cast today.

1:29Derrik Klassen: Go to TommyJohn.com today for 25 % off your first order with code COMFORT. That's TommyJohn.com slash COMFORT. TommyJohn. Comfort perfected.

1:44Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. We were a little bit worried as we were planning today's show yesterday that we wouldn't have anything to talk about. And the NFL never seems to disappoint. Max Crosby come, or I guess the Ravens come through for us and give us plenty to talk about today. The Max Crosby trade nixed on Baltimore's side of it because of a failed physical. We spent a lot of time talking about whether this is a conspiracy, how much actually changed when the Ravens got to take a look at this, whether Trey Hendrickson's availability played into this, how much it might have.

2:19Robert Mays: Really enjoyed this conversation with Dave and Derek. The other big bit of news today, Daniel Jones, science's two-year extension with the Colts. I have begrudgingly come to a place where I think I understand the Daniel Jones move for the Colts. We dove into that from a bunch of different angles. And then the rest of the signings that have kind of rolled in over the last 24 hours or so. Chat a little bit about Reek Wolin going to the Eagles, some of the signings that commanders have made. Kevin Byard went to the Patriots right before we started recording. The Jalen Hawkins signing happened as we were recording.

2:50Robert Mays: Spent a little time talking about the Jets after the Dylan Parham news came down. Bunch of different stuff to story through with Dave and Derek. Let's get to that conversation right now.

3:05Robert Mays: And here we thought, as of yesterday afternoon, that we might not have anything to talk about today.

3:10Dave Helman: Now we're going to have something to talk about that we've never had to deal with before,

3:14Derrik Klassen: really, in the way that the Max Crosby thing went down. You just reminded me of Ferris Bueller. You said you weren't going to have anything. You said we weren't going to have any fun today.

3:22Robert Mays: We're going to have plenty of fun today. Last night was awesome. I mean, just you see that come across the timeline. It was very funny. We were sitting there. We're watching How to Go to Heaven from Belfast on Netflix, which has been very enjoyable. But we're sitting there watching it last night and I press pause as I reacted to something on the internet. And my wife goes, this better not be a football thing. Oh, but it is. And then I had to describe to her how crazy it was, the way that this was unfolding. And then so that just kind of what's her care level did not care. She had like 10 seconds.

3:53Robert Mays: She's like, oh, it's kind of interesting. And then she obviously went away from it almost immediately. So not surprising that you see that come across the timeline from the Raiders. And the fact that the Raiders got out in front of it the way that they did, I actually understand them wanting to use that sort of language and to be kind of the first bit of communication about it where it didn't say felt physical. All it said was the Ravens have backed out on the trade. We will have no further comment on this time. The first place my mind goes is, okay, so I assume he failed this physical. I assume that is the reason that this is no longer going to happen.

4:23Robert Mays: But then you kind of see the cascade of all of the thoughts aligned with failing the physical and then everyone putting the pieces together of, okay, feels like with Trey Hendrickson still out there, Trey Hendrickson is now going to end up in Baltimore. And then every single one of us woke up this morning to the news that Trey Hendrickson was a member of the Ravens, by the way, on the exact amount of money that Max Crosby had remaining on his deal.

4:46Derrik Klassen: That's so surprising. Wow. That's so that's so strange to me. It is funny how I think anybody who follows the NFL and has a pulse could probably connect the dots and say, OK, the Ravens really need Dre Hendrickson. Now that's probably where they'll go next to just be that tidy, like 730 central time Wednesday morning. You're just like, oh, yeah, they already did it. Great. We don't have to speculate about this. We don't have to wonder when it's going to come down. I appreciate them being quick about it.

5:14Robert Mays: So where do we fall on this between, okay, there really was some sort of issue with the medicals. They were no longer comfortable with this and full on conspiracy theory. They were looking for a reason to get out of this. They wanted Trey Hendrickson all along. Between those two polls, where do you land?

5:31Dave Helman: I don't know if it's they wanted Trey Hendrickson all along. It's just I think this deal was done before the tampering period officially opened, obviously. And then we get to Monday and through Tuesday and Trey Hendrickson hadn't signed. There were a lot of reports that like maybe his market wasn't as good as people thought. And so I think there's at least some chance that the Ravens thought, OK, if we can get Trey Hendrickson for about the same amount of money and also not give up our two first round picks, even if he's a little bit of a worse player, a little bit older. That's a deal that they kind of would like to make.

6:00Dave Helman: And so that's kind of where I lean, which is probably then closer to like conspiracy theory side. But I think that's probably where I land.

6:06Derrik Klassen: People bring this up all the time. I just Googled it. I don't know this off the top of my head. I'm not that big of a nerd. Hanlon's razor. Never assume malice where incompetence can be can be the thing that explains it. That's kind of where I fall. And look, I get it. It's very convenient that Trey Hendrickson's price was dropping and we were going back and forth about what he was actually worth as all this came together. Yeah. I do buy that the Ravens were uncomfortable with what they saw on the medicals. My thing is, and I don't think it's a conspiracy. I just think I said when they did the trade, we did a show on Sunday, two days after the trade.

6:43Derrik Klassen: I said I didn't want to classify it as desperate. I'm going back on all of that. They did a desperate thing and they realized they were out over their skis. That's what I think happened. and my pushback on being uncomfortable with the medicals. My brother's in Christ. He's a 29-year-old edge who's played 90 % of the snaps over the last four years in the NFL. He is an Ironman who doesn't take it down off unless his team forces him to at the end of the year. And he had his meniscus repaired. Of course, the long-term outlook of his knee is a little scary. If you needed to see it to know that, I'm questioning some things.

7:23Derrik Klassen: And so I don't doubt that they genuinely were uncomfortable with the medicals. How did you get to the point where you signed off on two first round picks going to Vegas before you came to that conclusion? So that's where I'm at.

7:35Dave Helman: Like you already knew it might be an issue because obviously like repairing.

7:38Derrik Klassen: It is undoubtedly an issue. He had a meniscus repair.

7:40Dave Helman: And but one, but he's supposed to be on track to be back by like July and stuff, which they we already knew based on the reporting was probably going to be the case anyway. And so now I'm just looking at it and like, I just, I don't know this, the fact that they backed out of it, I think is crazy.

7:54Robert Mays: There are, there's so many layers to this. The first one is how much new information did you learn when your doctors took a look at this? And when you saw, maybe sought out other opinions beyond the, what the Raiders sent over. We've learned a lot about the process of how this happens with teams here in the last 24 hours. I thought Albert Breer did a good job laying it all out and what he wrote for SI overnight. What happens when a trade like this goes down? team trainers agree to send whatever information they have about the injury back and forth about the players so the acquiring team can take a look at it.

8:24Robert Mays: So was there any new information that the Ravens learned between what they got from the Raiders initially and what they saw when they actually did the examination? Potentially. Even if that's the case, though, I think there are two questions that come to mind for me. Failed physical is not a thing, right? Like you choose if a guy fails a physical. There's a slight of scale. It's not objective.

8:45Dave Helman: You take on the risk.

8:47Robert Mays: So if Max Crosby was traded for a third round pick and not two first round picks, do we think the trade goes through? Yes, 100%. Okay. Let's say Trey Hendrickson had already agreed to a deal. Trey Hendrickson is no longer an option for you. Do we think the trade goes through? Yes, yes. That's the one where I'm not exactly sure. I think the first one is definitely...

9:07Derrik Klassen: Considering the price, maybe not. Like maybe, well, considering there are other options, I think no. But I'm so but like even let's say let's say Trey Hendrickson is a cult, which the report came out that that's who was most heavily talking to him prior to all this going down. If Trey Hendrickson's a cult, maybe like maybe the Ravens still nixed this trade because they'd rather scramble and bring Jadeveon Clowney back and piece it all together and spend a top 15 pick on an edge rusher. I could at least see that. But I still think if Trey Hendrickson wasn't available, there's a better chance than not of the trade going through.

9:40Robert Mays: There are people who are saying that they actually wouldn't want a Trey Hendrickson all along if they had known this would be the price. And they just use this as an excuse to back out of it. That is harder for me to believe. Like, if that was the case, why wouldn't you have just wanted to be in on the Trey Hendrickson market at the beginning? Right. My assumption is when the Trey Hendrickson thing started playing out the way that they did and they saw maybe one layer deeper on the medical side, they thought, hey, we don't have to do this. There are alternatives here if we wanted to explore them.

10:08Robert Mays: And is that shady? yeah, it's a little bit shady. Like, I understand why teams are frustrated by that and why a lot of other executives are using this as an opportunity to shit on the Ravens. But I also understand it from the Ravens' point of view. Like, you have new information and you are now using that new information to make a decision.

10:26Derrik Klassen: That's my thing, though, is how new is the information?

10:29Robert Mays: Like I said. But the Trey Hendrickson information is part of that. That's what I'm saying. That's part of the new information.

10:34Derrik Klassen: I thought you meant new information about Max. And that's my point where I'm like, if you needed to see the scans to know that his knee might bother you a little bit, I don't really buy it. Like, I could have told you that before you pressed okay on two first-round picks.

10:48Dave Helman: And so that's where my question comes in, is like, how bad over what you already knew about it would it have to be for you to nix the trade if it was purely about the medicals? Like, it would have to be like nuclear grade, like his knee's never gonna work again.

11:00Robert Mays: I think the Ravens, I don't think that's necessarily true. I really don't. I think when you consider the price, it's a massive price to pay. You already, by giving, by trading away two first round picks for a guy entering his age 29 season that's already like into his third, into his second contract, you already were doing something at a level of risk that has never been done in the modern NFL before. We have not seen this happen in the last 10 years. Since 2011 to me is like the start of modern football because of the CBA. We have not seen something like this happen. All the other guys traded for two first round picks are guys that were heading out to second contracts or quarterbacks.

11:38Robert Mays: That's it. He was the only players we have seen traded for this. And so you're already doing something that is incredibly risky. So it doesn't have to be he's never gonna play again. It has to be, do we think we can get three solid years out of him? If your answer to that is no, but you thought it might've been before you took a look, I can understand revisiting the price because it's an insane amount to give up for a single player if you don't think he's gonna be part of your present and your future.

12:04Derrik Klassen: And I guess my only point would be, again, he's famous for never getting off the field. That's what Max Crosby does. And he's 29 and he just had this procedure on his knee. And maybe it's even worse than they thought. I'm not doubting their medical people. But if you needed to see it to be convinced that it wasn't worth the two first round picks, maybe you shouldn't have been in this conversation in the first place. because like I could have told you, you might be concerned by what you see from this guy's medicals based on everything he's been through in the NFL to this point. But again, I think it's not just about the medicals.

12:42Derrik Klassen: And we know that. And having training, right?

12:43Robert Mays: It's like having the alternative is one of the reasons that you're willing to pull the plug.

12:47Dave Helman: I'll ask you. Oh, go ahead. I just, I also don't think the alternative is better here.

12:52Robert Mays: So I was literally about to ask you this. Okay. So let's just say that the medicals aren't scary enough. where you would still move forward with it. So this is a hypothetical world that I'm creating for you. Would you rather have Max Crosby and give away two first round picks or Trey Henderson be able to keep the picks? Which one would you rather have Max Crosby?

13:11Dave Helman: I think that's my answer. And I realize that's giving up a lot. Like two first round picks is a ton. But like I, one, I think Max Crosby is, they're both great pass rushers, obviously at their best. Max Crosby to me is still a slightly better pass rusher. And then as run defenders, it's just not close, especially in a defense like this, where we've already talked about like how important that is for the Minter McDonald, you know, Staley Fangio style of defense. Crosby gives that to you in a way that Hendrickson just doesn't quite. And so for him to be like a true cornerstone, you can build the defense around this piece as opposed to Hendrickson, who is a good player, but kind of just a race car pass rusher for you.

13:45Dave Helman: I just, I would rather still have Crosby.

13:48Derrik Klassen: I described myself as a coward the other day and I'll stick to it, but give me the option that gives me the best chance to pivot because if Trey Hendrickson doesn't work out, You eat some money, you're disappointed by it, and you have your draft picks, and you have ways you can go another direction. If Max Crosby, if the knee really is bad, or for whatever reason, he just doesn't get back to that level, you're not replacing him in the draft. You're out on premium picks, your cap is getting screwed, and you're not getting production from that guy that was supposed to be your cornerstone. Missing on the Crosby deal is catastrophic.

14:21Derrik Klassen: Missing on Hendrickson is something teams do every other year. So I would go with Hendrickson.

14:26Robert Mays: It's funny that this is the place I thought the Ravens would be in coming into free agency. Jalen Phillips is the guy that I had in mind. Yeah, they wound up exactly where you thought they would be. They wound up doing exactly what we thought. And even this, though, I was on Barnwell's show today and we talked about a lot of these things. But the point that I think we made on the Sunday show and other people have made about the Ravens construction post-Max Crosby trade, it's still the same when you think about the money allocated. Obviously, the draft picks changed the calculus, but this is still the sort of move.

14:55Robert Mays: even when we throw the draft picks out the window, that the Ravens don't often make. This is still a move where you're leveraging yourself. There's less risk probably than the Crosby trade, but you're still signing a 31-year-old pass rusher to a$30 million a year contract with$60 million guaranteed. So the Ravens are still pushing themselves to a place they don't often go because of the level of urgency they're feeling at that position.

15:19Derrik Klassen: Like I already said, on Sunday, I was unwilling to call them desperate. They come across really desperate. Like everything that's happened since Friday, they seem desperate to up the talent level on their defense to strike while the iron's hot with Lamar, which is totally fair. Teams do that stuff all the time when they're trying to capitalize on a quarterback's window. The Bills traded for DJ Moore. Like this is very normal stuff. But I think we we often assign this higher level of knowledge and almost like a Zen like composure to the Ravens. And like the way they've moved this last week does not come across that way at all.

15:54Are there any teams like that left where you're unassailable?

15:59Derrik Klassen: You're just like, this team knows ball. They would never do something silly.

16:02Robert Mays: Not even that. Just teams that are so measured in their decision making that we would look at something like this and be like, oh, they would never do that. Which team is it? The Chargers. And I get mad that they won't do shit. Which has Raven's DNA all over the place. That's really funny. That's really funny.

16:19Derrik Klassen: Yeah, okay, no, I'm going to push back on that, though, just because the Chargers haven't achieved the sustained success to, like, give that sort of gravitas the way that the Ravens have. Right, that's true. This is your three regime. That's all I mean.

16:33Robert Mays: But the reason I posited that way is that I said this to Sando when we were doing the live show. There are probably four or five teams in the NFL to whom we would ascribe this sort of thinking, where it's just like they are measured, they're methodical, they don't get out over their skis, They don't make these big splash signings in free agency. They don't throw away draft capital. There is a process to how they do things consistently. And if I had to list off four teams that over the last decade have embodied that sort of thinking, the teams I would say are the Green Bay Packers, the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Baltimore Ravens, and the Dallas Cowboys.

17:08Robert Mays: Every single one of those teams in the last like 16 months, I don't remember when the DK thing happened, probably 12 months, have made massive trades that include at least a high second round pick and a huge extension, all four of them. So who are the teams left? And I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. Are we at a place now where you should operate that way? So in order to get yourself over the top, you need to be, do you need to cheat a little bit and you need to cut these corners that maybe previously you weren't willing to cheat?

17:41Derrik Klassen: It makes me think of another team that is very highly thought of, but you can't say that they're so methodical and Zen-like and all that stuff. And that would be Philadelphia. Philly does wild shit all the time. Yes. But they're just, they're unafraid to make mistakes. And I think there's a recognition that mistakes will be made. But if you're aggressive, direct, and smart about the way that you do it, you'll come out in the positive over time. Like, that's the way I view Philadelphia. You can go down their ledger and find all kinds of hilarious mistakes. But when the cap jumps the way that it does, when you can use the draft and maneuver around it the way that they do, you can mitigate those mistakes, maybe not easily, but effectively.

18:20Derrik Klassen: And so, yeah, I think you're probably better off. Of course, you want to think about this stuff and be measured with it, but you're better off sometimes just ripping it and trusting that you can fix it pretty quickly if you're wrong, because we see teams prove that true all the time.

18:35Robert Mays: Seattle doesn't have any of those moves from last offseason. But I mean, the Darnold thing, there is a level of risk and aggression to that where you're not just going to sit there and play with the status quo. And if you go back even further, like a couple more years, like the Leonard Williams trade is a really aggressive choice, even if we're a couple of years removed from it. And so and then if you want to rewind even further back than that, like think about how the Rams won the Super Bowl. Think about how the Rams built the team that they did. The Niners have been hyper aggressive in some of the things that they've done.

19:03Robert Mays: Like, I think we're kind of running out of teams that are just going to sit there and be like, you know what? We trust our process. We're just going to see it out and we're going to be patient and we're going to let it come to us. There aren't really any any teams around the league that have stood by that sort of approach over and over and over again when you look at the past three or four years.

19:22Derrik Klassen: And think about how like short lived it was where like teams like the Rams and I mean, the Eagles bottomed out after the first Super Bowl. and think about how quickly they were back on their feet. Like you eat shit for a year and you're fine. Bottoming out is fine. It's fine. You're okay to bottom out. Especially if you bottom out while striving to be great. And that's why I don't like to kill teams, you know, like as catastrophic as it's been and as unfun as this year looks like it's going to be, I don't like killing the Dolphins for going for the gusto because it is better than living in that just boring middle.

19:56Robert Mays: There are two different things that can happen when you bottom out. I think there is a bottoming out when you're Howie Roseman or you're Les Snead where you have, and the Snead thing is like, it's Snead McVay, right? Yeah. So McVay will have that job as long as he wants it. And when you know that, you're allowed to operate a different way. That's, when you can bottom out there, then it's just part of a process where the bottoming out actually benefits you because it helps your draft position in a single year. There's also the bottoming out where you're going to lose your job, right? And so, but either one of those, to me, that is more appealing than just kind of staying the course, staying the course, staying the course, trying to win nine or 10 games every single year.

20:34Robert Mays: Because I think, again, it can be hard to win nine or 10 games every single year. And there can still be the justifiable conclusion that that shouldn't be the goal. Like both of those things can be true at the same time. And so I'm fine with these teams going for it a little bit. And more and more, that just seems to be the approach that a lot of these teams are taking.

20:52Derrik Klassen: It would be really ironic if, like, I'll go as far as to say I think less of the Ravens' overall operation over the last, like, five days than I did before. But it would be really funny if this experience unlocked a little bit more of a reckless attitude in them that made them a more admirable front office, which we'll see.

21:11Robert Mays: I think it's important to acknowledge also that what happened over the last year, it probably is affecting their decision making and their thought process.

21:21Dave Helman: Just in terms of like how the AFC fell apart?

21:23Robert Mays: No, I just say, Eric DaCosta at the press conference where they were announcing where it was him and Bashadi and they were talking about the Harbaugh firing, what would come next. Eric DaCosta was very open about the fact that my shortcomings in building the roster are part of the reason John got fired. And so there are two different things that things can play into that. One, does that just make you a little bit more aggressive because you want to atone for that? And two, does it make you a little bit more aggressive because you're starting to feel the heat a little bit more than you would otherwise.

21:53Robert Mays: And so I think this process, I don't know if it makes me think less of the Ravens front office, but I think the last year makes me think that the Ravens front office isn't this very patient, controlled, methodical group that just like gonna go by the book over and over and over again. There's a level of like urgency and scrambling to them that I don't think we've usually seen in the past.

22:16Derrik Klassen: That's a more fair way to say it, if not less. Like I said, for the longest time, you think of the Ravens as like this Zen-like, just like a monk, like unbothered by anything. And I just, you come to learn like, nope, they're bothered and urgent and nervous and anxious, just like everybody else. And they can do stupid things too. And I think we get so scared

22:35Dave Helman: when teams make these like high leverage moves where it's like, oh, if it doesn't work out, then they're completely screwed. But I think that's also true of these teams that like take a little bit slower, draft and develop all that stuff. Well, if you have two draft classes and one free agency class where you bat like 150, you're in the same spot that all these teams who they over leverage themselves are bad. And so I think that's kind of where the Ravens had ended up over the last year or so.

22:54Robert Mays: So the Ravens, while we were talking, made another football move. Okay. Jalen Hawkins headed to the Ravens, two years, 10 million bucks. $5 million a year for Jalen Hawkins, by the way. I'm really into that. I'm extremely into that. Here's, this is the comparison I'm going to make. Third contract, third contract. He's played on like four different teams. He's bounced around. He's 28. So he's a little bit of an older player. What are the chances that the Jalen Hawkins contract from this cycle looks like the cam curl contract from two cycles ago?

23:23Dave Helman: Pretty good, especially on that defense where like all you got to do is just be a competent body next to Malachi Starks and allow Kyle Hamilton to play the nickel as much as he wants to. Like that's kind of all that this contract has to be.

23:34Derrik Klassen: Which that was a big thing. And to go back to the top of the show, a big reason I don't buy that there was some kind of conspiracy by the Ravens is I know like they were never in on Linderbaum for those prices. And I'm sure they weren't interested in re-signing every single player that left their building over the last two days. But they lost at least a couple guys where maybe if you don't trade for Max Crosby, you could be more in on Charlie Kohler, like holding on to a guy like that. Or you could be interested. I would have said prior to right now, maybe you're trying harder to keep Alohi Gilman.

24:07Derrik Klassen: But if you can get Jalen Hawkins for that price, they're probably not all that worried about Alohi Gilman leaving anyway. I think this is overblown.

24:13Robert Mays: I think the idea that Losing the players they did? I think that's overblown. I'm not sure there's a single guy that walked out the door where it's like, oh man, if we, because they signed Trey Hendrickson to the exact same contract that they signed, that they, that would have, that Max Crosby would have come with. Like the money that the earmarked for Crosby just went to Trey Hendrickson. So I'm not sure their thought process would have been any different.

24:32Derrik Klassen: I would, like I said, like certainly not all, I think it's like nine of them by now, but I would imagine at least a couple of them. I mean, I know you don't want to talk about special teams, but Jordan Stout was all pro last year. Like you're not trying to make a competitive offer to keep him.

24:47Robert Mays: I am going to go out on a limb and say they don't care that the Max Crosby thing had nothing to do with retaining Jordan Stout.

24:54Derrik Klassen: I agree. But if you hadn't like if that money hadn't been earmarked on Monday afternoon, could he have resigned with Baltimore? I think that's fair to wonder. I'm not sure it matters that much again because they just use the money. I think the vast majority of those guys would be gone anyway. And I certainly don't think any of their losses are going to cripple the team, especially since you've addressed the edge rush issue.

25:15Robert Mays: All right, so let's play this out just from purely a football perspective now. Let's, in this hypothetical world, say Matt Abike comes back. It's obviously like the biggest thing looming over this. We have no idea whether that's going to happen, but they've accounted the resources for him. So if Matt Abike comes back, we have Trey Hendrickson now in the fold. You just signed Jalen Hawkins. What do we think about this Ravens defense with Jesse Minter?

25:41Dave Helman: I probably still want one more body at depth along the defensive line. Like, I think that they could still use a little bit more pop there. But guess what, buddy?

25:48Robert Mays: They have the 14th overall pick in the draft. I guess I do, yeah.

25:50Dave Helman: I kind of was missing the calculation there. Yeah, I mean, if they can spend that on defensive linemen that they like. Or honestly, even a corner. Like, you know, I think there were some talks about, like, is Marlon Humphrey potentially was going to be a cap casualty. I know they just re-signed Shadobi Awuzie, but that is very much like a... Oh, did they bring back Shido? Yes. And that can be like a very much like, he can start if we need him to. we're going to probably keep the door open to start somebody else and potentially if they like you know a Jermon McCoy at 14 or whatever it might be and so I kind of like the way that the defense is looking again I still would much rather have what Crosby gives you on the edge in run defense and what they're going to get from Hendrickson but I think that this can be good and Hawkins too is like the perfect style of safety for them he's not the best athlete out there I think range wise he can be a little up and down but he is a very very smart player and And I think if you're going to play safety in a defense like Jesse Minters, that makes a lot of sense, especially paired next to Malachi Starks, who I think had a very underrated rookie season.

26:47Dave Helman: Obviously, Emin Wari got a lot of hype, but I thought Starks was awesome. He didn't take off or start making it. And the stats just don't.

26:55Derrik Klassen: The Ravens were bad by the time Malachi Starks started playing well. That's, I think, the big issue for him, but I agree with you.

27:02Robert Mays: Speaking of Patriots' safeties, Jalen Hawkins moving on to Baltimore. Kevin Byard heading to New England. Sounds like a one-year,$9 million deal. What do you think about swapping out Hawkins for Byard with a little bit of an uptick in price?

27:17Dave Helman: They're very different players to me because Hawkins to me is a little bit more... I trust him a little bit to come down a little bit more. I think I just talked about Hawkins' range, but I think Byard at this stage in his career probably has a little bit less. And I question some of what Byard can do as a tackler, especially deep down the field when he's kind of the lone man at this stage. But I don't know. I kind of understand the Patriots. I mean, Vrabel wanting to just be like, OK, I'm going to get a few more of my guys. And I think next to him, Craig Woodson played really well as more of that box safety.

27:44Dave Helman: So it's probably fine, especially given it's only going to be a one year deal and the rest of the secondary is awesome. So it will probably be fine.

27:53Robert Mays: All right, before we move on, let's take our first quick break.

27:57Dave Helman: Every now and then you get a piece of clothing that makes you rethink your entire closet. it. For me, it came in the form of the softest sweater I've ever worn, made out of alpaca fiber by Paca in Peru. As a California native who's done a ton of traveling to colder parts of the country this year, this hoodie has done a lot for me. I am so not used to the colder conditions, the colder weather, and so to be able to just throw this on and not really have to worry that I'm going to get too freezing cold when I'm out walking the streets and stuff like that has been an absolute revelation. Paca makes outdoor and lifestyle apparel from alpaca fiber, one of the world's most sustainable natural fibers.

28:31Dave Helman: Their best-selling hoodie is softer than cashmere, warmer than wool, and breathable. This hoodie is built for real life, thermoregulating, odor-resistant, durable, and made to last. Each one is made start-to-finish in Peru and features an Inca ID that's hand-woven by artisans, honoring generations of knowledge and traditions and connecting you closer to where your clothing comes from. Over 250 ,000 people have already picked up the pack of hoodie. So if you've been thinking about leveling up your hoodie game, this is your sign to do it now. To grab your pack of hoodie, go to www.pakaapparel.com.

29:05Dave Helman: That's www.pakaapparel.com.

29:11Derrik Klassen: Teens spend an average of nine hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full-time job just scrolling mindlessly. We all know how bad scrolling mindlessly is for us as adults. Let's think about how bad that could be for teenagers and even younger children. Here's the good news. There's a solution. A company called Gav has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is Tech in Steps. Tech in Steps works by providing safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for tweens and teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence.

29:52Derrik Klassen: Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected without social media. Right now, use our code to get the best deal on a kid's phone that will make parenting easier and give you more peace of mind. Visit Gab.com slash football show and use code football show for an exclusive offer. That's Gab, G-A-B-B.

30:17Derrik Klassen: Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of Ted's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. Have you heard of Bill? It's the intelligent finance platform that uses AI to help you avoid costly errors and optimize cash flow. In fact, Bill reports that over 90 of the top 100 U.S. accounting firms trust them to manage, move, and maximize money, proven by over a trillion dollars in secure transactions. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven.

30:51Derrik Klassen: Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.

30:58Robert Mays: The other big bit of news today, Daniel Jones signs his deal with the Colts. Two years,$100 million,$88 million guaranteed. Excuse me, it's a really two-year$88 million deal that goes up to$100 million with a lot of incentives. The incentives, I don't know if you guys have looked at them at all. They make perfect sense in terms of like, if he does these things, refine paying the deal, he gets I believe$100 ,000 for every win that he plays 50 % of the snaps there's a bonus that comes with each playoff round there's a million dollar bonus that comes with the Super Bowl and so I'm sure his team obviously there's been a ton of back and forth negotiating in the media where the Colts wanted to give him something closer to the Darnold deal his team wanted $50 million a year so because it's up to that 100 million his team can champion where we got the$50 million a year they've also been very loud about the fact that it's the biggest two-year contract in NFL history, which congratulations to them.

31:52Robert Mays: We talked a lot about the Daniel Jones money when they gave him the transition tag and how we felt about that compared to the alternatives. I've sat with this a lot over the last week as I've thought about how this might play out. I have my thoughts about it, but now that you see the deal and now that you see the end point that the Colts have reached, giving Daniel Jones this contract plus retaining Alec Pierce, How do you feel about how this all went down?

32:17Dave Helman: I do not think this team is going to be able to do what they did last year or even like midpointed because my thing with Daniel Jones is obviously a lot of what they did with him was it was kind of based on his ability to move around. It was moving him out of the pocket. It was using him in the run game, a lot of their spread gun stuff. And I just am worried about what that's going to look like next year. Obviously, it's only a two-year commitment, so it's not that big of a deal. And I will say on the other end, once you transition tag him, you kind of have to do this.

32:42Robert Mays: And so if they want it... It's not that you kind of have to.

32:44Dave Helman: It was like if they wanted to make the decision to go elsewhere, they would have had to done it before they do the tag. So once you do the tag, you kind of have to make the deal. But I think I'm still in the same boat that I was coming out of it is that or coming out of the season is that I would. I know things went the way that they went last year and he played really well for eight, 10 games, whatever it was. And I'm sure that they like him in the locker room as a guy and all that stuff. And obviously you have proof of concept here. But I just I would have rather hopped on the quarterback carousel again, which I know is like a scary and insane thing to say, given how long that they've been on it.

33:14Dave Helman: But I just, I am dubious of this amount of money working out for a player like that.

33:19Derrik Klassen: I'm going to appeal to your sensibilities. I've been thinking about this all week. There's a 30 Rock joke where Jack Donaghy's talking about like NBC's strategy and it's like, make it 2007 again by magic. I think it was 1998. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, make it 1998 again by science or magic. I feel like that's what the Colts are doing here. Just like, just get us back to September of 2025, no matter what. Like, Alec Pierce, sure. Daniel Jones, sure. Whatever gets that band back together is what we want to do. And I don't know. I hope it works out for him because I did enjoy watching him play during that stretch.

33:59Derrik Klassen: But I don't feel good about it. Like, I feel like you're trying too hard to recreate something without the assurances that it's going to be that good again. Because, look, I'm not saying he lights the world on fire, But like the thing that I liked so much about the Colts, and I remember saying this so many times last year, is the way that it all fit together in harmony to like make a better picture. And how well are you going to survive? Even like even if you don't think Michael Pittman's the man, how well do you survive taking that piece out? How well do you survive? Kudos to them. They replaced two offensive linemen in 2025 and were great.

34:36Derrik Klassen: But Braden Smith now not being part of it. Like, can you completely recreate it as beautifully as you think you're going to be able to? And if you can't, is it worth paying Daniel Jones this amount of money? And I'll say it for the 10th time, if he was fully healthy, I don't even know that I'd spend a lot of time thinking about it. But he's not. And that scares the hell out of me.

34:57Robert Mays: Here's why the health part of it matters less to me now that he's on the extension. You've given yourself a two-year runway. If it was just the transition tech and you were betting$37 million on one year coming off of the Achilles, then I think that's a losing battle. Like there's just almost no way he's going to be good enough in that one year to justify that amount of money. But because now you've given yourself two years to get this right. And at the end of the day, I think I'm okay with how this all went down.

35:25Dave Helman: But so we're betting two years out from now that Daniel Jones will be a good quarterback again? Like, I think that to me is just a little bit scary. Okay, so what would you rather have done? I would have rather like, I mean, I guess because of the timeline of the Kyler Murray thing and like when he got cut, it makes it obviously really complicated with the transition tag. But again, like I...

35:44Robert Mays: Let's not even do that. Let's just say you can sign Kyler Murray for a million dollars. Yes, easily. Okay. In a vacuum, right? Yes. That is better. the production per dollar with Kyler Murray and a million dollar contract is probably better than what you're going to get for Daniel Jones coming off of Achilles making 44 million dollars if Kyler Murray had played well now you're tagging Kyler Murray for 45 million dollars the year after that I'm okay with that he's a better quarterback I think when you act when you play it all the way out and the fact that we've there's so many different factors leading into this as a theoretical exercise, yes, I would rather have Kyler Murray for a million dollars.

36:28Robert Mays: But the fact that we've seen it happen with Daniel Jones, like there is an appeal of that to me. There's an appeal to that. Like I understand chasing that again because you've seen it happen. And the other thing that I kind of keep coming back to, and again, kind of moving from the theoretical to the actual and why I'm okay paying a little bit of a premium for this. If what you're saying right now, it's what I was saying about J.J. McCarthy, Right. And I know J.J. McCarthy is more of an unknown than Kyler Murray. You get what I'm saying. And I said this a couple of weeks ago and I heard myself saying it where it's just like, we'll just do it again with the next guy.

37:02Robert Mays: You just did it with Daniel Jones. The bird in the hand thing to me, even again, I know he's hurt, but if he can be as healthy in 2027 as he was this year, the fact that, you know, he's already on the roster and that you don't have to play it out with an unknown. I think I'm willing to pay the premium for that. This group has two years anyway. And so I know that$44 million for Daniel Jones versus a million dollars for Kyra Murray, of course, that is a worse decision when you think about optimized application of the resources that you have. But I still feel like because we knew what it could be with Daniel Jones, playing it out this way and trying to play out the string with it, I think it's okay.

37:42Dave Helman: I get it. It's okay. Only insofar as like we are so far into the Chris Ballard thing that it's like, he's probably back into a corner where he can't jump on the quarterback carousel again. If this was...

37:53Robert Mays: Not even that you can't. Would you want to? Right.

37:56Dave Helman: Yeah. If this was his third year on the job and the Daniel Jones thing was like the first time he's trying to do it, I think it would probably make more sense.

38:01Robert Mays: It's an entirely different set of circumstances.

38:03Dave Helman: Even with that being the case, I still think that these are the exact circumstances that you bind yourself to a quarterback that you're probably going to regret.

38:12Derrik Klassen: I think all of this is fair. And I think what you have just laid out makes sense. If I was a Colts fan, I would want to throw up hearing somebody say, in 2027, this could be great. I hate that so much for Colts fans who, what, haven't made the playoffs since 2020, haven't won the division, I believe, since 2014.

38:34Robert Mays: The only reason I'm saying that is because the last two times we saw these quarterbacks come off of Achilles injuries, they looked worthless at the beginning. I know. Daniel Jones is significantly younger than both of those guys. That's true. There's at least a world and they've they're saying he's going to be ready for week one. And so I'm only writing off 2026 just because all of the recent evidence that we have is that that N plus one year from the quarterbacks coming off the Achilles are pretty worthless. But there is absolutely a world and they have more information about this than we do that he might be ready to go.

39:05Robert Mays: And he might be a good enough version of himself this year where you're not punting on this season. So if that's the case, then I think it looks even better. like I said even better if that's the case then I think it looks a little better I want to be careful about my language there

39:23Derrik Klassen: I hope the Colts are I hope they look as good as they did last year they were a very fun story I enjoyed being pleasantly surprised by them I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling in my stomach about it but I also and we said this before free agency like they got screwed by fate a little bit. And so considering the choices in front of them, I'm not going to kill them too hard for thinking they can recreate the Daniel Jones magic as opposed to take another roll of the quarterback dice and hope that they wind up in the same situation a year from now. I understand that. Yes.

40:03Robert Mays: I think believing you can is a worth, that is a fine decision given the alternatives. Because when we do this, we're like, oh my God, I can't believe you give Daniel Jones$44 million. I think you have to say, well, what are the alternatives? And for them, there's a couple of different layers to this. They don't have a first round pick in either of the next two years. And so that alternative is kind of off the table. And then again, I get that Kyler Murray may even be a better quarterback than Daniel Jones, but how's he going to fit into what we do? What does the personality stuff look like? There's so many unknowns with that.

40:34Robert Mays: Is the familiarity worth paying$40 million for? Probably not.

40:40Derrik Klassen: I also, I don't fully believe this, but given Daniel Jones's recent arc, it's also, it's pretty terrifying to think about letting him out of your building and find even a modicum of success somewhere else and say, like, Kyler Murray's not guaranteed to be good. I mean, I think we're on the same page that we think Kyler Murray can be good, but by no means is that a guarantee. And so if Daniel Jones were to land back in Minneapolis and have another redemption arc, then that's uncomfy for the Colts as well. So I don't think there are a lot of good solutions to this problem. I don't blame them for landing here.

41:19Robert Mays: What is more likely? You recapturing the Daniel Jones magic? And like, even almost, the price is almost like beside the point. Like it's like, who gives, like I understand that that gap, it absolutely has to be worth exploring. But in this situation, again, $45 million is a premium that even if it seems crazy, it's a premium worth paying at quarterback, right? And so what is more likely? At some point over the next two years, you can recapture the magic that you had with Daniel Jones or Kyler Murray gives you the quality of offense that you had with Daniel Jones. Which of those two things is more likely?

41:54Dave Helman: I think probably the Kyler Murray thing. I just don't know if it is. Given they're losing their right tackle, they're losing one of their best receivers, they're not going to have first-round picks to replenish this thing. Like, I just, I do not think that they're going to be able who were captured the Daniel Jones thing.

42:08Derrik Klassen: I don't think they are either.

42:09Dave Helman: Even 80 % of it, I think, would be kind of generous.

42:12Derrik Klassen: I don't feel good about any of it. And so I get trying to roll with what you saw. I mean, it was such a supernova of a moment. I don't blame them for being fixated on trying to recreate it, even if I don't know if they can. And that's why I think this is a little bit different

42:31Robert Mays: than what the Giants did, right? The Giants were like smoke and mirrors in their way to like the 14th best offense in the league by marginalizing the quarterback. Even if the other elements of the offense were doing a lot of heavy lifting as to why the Colts were the most efficient offensive lead for the first eight weeks. The quarterback was making throws. He was a part of what they were doing. This is a very different thing than what the Giants were. And again, I think that at the end of the day, if you're Chris Ballard and you're Shane Steichen, you know, this is it anyway. And so tying yourself to this and being like, we got two years to make this shit work.

43:09Robert Mays: And if we can't, we're all fired no matter what. I understand how you arrive here. And again, just to be very clear and put a point on this, this is not optimized decision making. This is not like the best possible thing you can do with the resources that you have. But I think when you kick all the contextual elements into account, I can understand this, the Colts being in a spot where they say, this is our best option. This right now is our best option, even if you have to hold your nose a little bit when you look at the price tag.

43:38Derrik Klassen: Between the Anthony Richardson pick and the Sauce Gardner trade, like you had plenty hand in landing yourself here. So it's you choose your best course for getting yourself out of it.

43:50Robert Mays: Got a few signings to run through here that have happened over the last day or so. The biggest one, just on an AAV level, the Philadelphia Eagles signing Tariq Wollin, one year up to 15 million. I have not seen any numbers aside from 15 million. Yeah, what that means. I don't know what the actual base number is. I'm sure up to is doing a little bit of lifting there, but what do you think about Tariq Wollin in Philadelphia as the other outside corner?

44:13Dave Helman: I think this is nails, dude. I kind of love it. This is really, really good.

44:17Derrik Klassen: I kind of love it. Who doesn't? Like the only people that don't like this are people who get tired of podcasters praising Howie Roseman or like rival fans, you know, NFC East fans.

44:28Robert Mays: Fair or not, Tariq Wollin is the exact sort of player where the landing spot was going to determine 100 % of how I felt about the contract. And that's the thing. I like this for Tariq Wollin.

44:38Dave Helman: Like the fact that he gets to go to a spot where he's playing opposite Quinone Mitchell and with Cooper Dejean in the slot. And again, like the pass rush, I know that they just lost Jalen Phillips, but like the pass rush and the rest of the defense should still be good. Like this is a very good spot. If you are a young player looking to like go and prove that you are worth it and you are worth that caliber of contract, this is the exact spot to go do that.

44:58Derrik Klassen: I said this yesterday, like Tariq Woolen had to have had longer offers on the table. Oh, absolutely. He's going here to maximize his value for 2027. outside of getting re-signed in Seattle where would you rather land for 2026 than Philadelphia I mean I you know there are some places that come to mind but this is a very strong defense with one of now one of the best secondaries in the entire league Vic Fangio pulling the strings and and the Eagles got it like in terms of like high upside starter potential and for all of his boneheadedness that is what Tariq Wollin is what like what's the downside for Philly Oh, no, it might be dramatic and blow up in their faces.

45:40Derrik Klassen: That happens every other year anyway in Philadelphia.

45:43Dave Helman: Even if he's like 75 % as good as people want him to do, that's a lot better than Adore Jackson was last year.

45:49Robert Mays: It's insanely better.

45:51Derrik Klassen: It's so much better for them. All we did last year was talk about CB2 being the problem that they could not get away from. And, I mean, this is an answer. And I'm sure he will come with headaches of his own, but I think it's awesome.

46:07Dave Helman: And like it kind of warped the way Philly had to play defense last year. I know the way that Vic Fangio calls it, they play a good amount of cover six anyway, but they almost every snap they could were trying to play half to the side that Adore Jackson was on because they just didn't want him covering guys. Rick Wollin is imperfect. He will give up an explosive play every now and then, but you do not have to like baby him in terms of the way that the coverages are being called. All right. So you just mentioned the pass rush.

46:29Robert Mays: We probably should have had this discussion when we're talking about Max Crosby. I came, I arrived at this today and now I can't stop thinking about it. Think about Max Crosby's potential landing spots. Let's say it's June 3rd. Howie Roseman calls John Spitek. He's like, I have a disgruntled receiver that doesn't want to play for me. You have a pass rusher that doesn't want to play for you. Just straight up. Max Crosby for AJ Brown. By the way,$30 million in cash for each of them this year. It's the exact same amount about money allocated this season.

46:59Dave Helman: So they both come out kind of even on the books, basically.

47:02Robert Mays: AJ Brown's option bonus is$27.5 million plus his base. And Max Crosby, I think, has a$30 million base salary this year. Okay.

47:11Derrik Klassen: That's pretty good. I'm trying to think if there was a team, like which team would want more? Or do you think one for one is fair at this point in their career?

47:20Robert Mays: So the reason that I think this is something that the Raiders should explore, based on where the Raiders are in their team building process, I think the picks are more valuable and more important to them than a 28-year-old pass rusher. But because you're drafting a quarterback number one overall, a star receiver, to me, might be more valuable than the picks because I'm going to go to another 30-rock joke. When Jack is selling NBC to Cable Town, he's like, it's a baby that they have to keep alive. That's how the Raiders have to feel about Fernando Mendoza. All that matters is us keeping this little baby alive as long as we can and trying to get A.J.

47:57Robert Mays: Brown in the mix and give yourself a true number one receiver. we have seen this over and over and over again happen with Jalen Hurts where you have this young quarterback you give him a receiver like this I know he's a couple years older but it happened with Stefan Diggs happened with Tyree Kill like we've seen these teams trade real capital to get these guys for the young quarterbacks and how important that's been in their development and so I I think for both sides again if AJ Brown is like steadfast and he does not want to play there anymore think about this Eagles defense with Max Crosby it's just a better version of

48:28Derrik Klassen: what Jalen Phillips was giving them last year. Considering what we've already talked about with the finances of trading AJ and how like it doesn't really make sense for Philly until June anyway. I think that's great. Well done. I mean, I don't know if it's going to happen,

48:44Dave Helman: but it's A plus podcast food for thought. And I do love it for the Raiders, not only because AJ Brown's still a good player, you get a number one for Fernando Mendoza. All their guys are either smaller or like slot middle of the players. It's like Trey Tucker, who's more of a speed slot, like Jalen Naylor, kind of the same thing. You have those two tight ends, but you don't have a, can we put him right outside the numbers and he can do something for us? AJ Brown, that's kind of all he gives you at this stage.

49:08Robert Mays: If it's not Philly, which teams do we think should still be sniffing around Max Crosby and how much do we think the price changes? I think San Francisco should think about it. That's the one team, Barnwell and I were talking about this today, that is the one team that did not come up that I absolutely think should be

49:24Dave Helman: considering it because they just don't like I know they like spent a bunch of young pieces on their front and obviously you have Fred Warner's and Nick Bosa's like your veterans there but you still need I think a guy that you feel very very comfortable is like a good running mate with Nick Bosa I think it allows you to not be that worried if Michael Williams right now is really only more of a run defender for you obviously he was banged up for a lot of last year as well and then Nick Bosa is still a very good player but I don't think he's quite the ace that he was obviously two, three years ago.

49:54Dave Helman: And so I think getting a little bit more juice opposite him and Max Crosby, obviously a really good front defender. Like I, if they're trying to supercharge this defense and just hoping that the offense will be what it always is under Kyle Shanahan, that's a pretty good way to take control of the NFC West again.

50:08Robert Mays: What do you think Nick Bosa's 2027 cap hit is? $70 trillion. $52 million. So they will have to touch that because it would be very funny if they were allocating$80 million of the cap to two edge rushers. But I think that's a team that makes sense. And I'm not even just saying this. I truly think that when you consider need and financial flexibility, if the price is going to change, this is absolutely something the Bears should think about. Absolutely. Oh, you're on board now that it's not two ones. If it's not two ones, if it's a one and next year's two, if you look at their, and it's beyond even what they can do, you can zero out the Crosby contract and he'll have like an$8 million cap hit this year.

50:48Robert Mays: Their cap moving forward, because in 2027, They can get out from under the O'Dangbo contract and the Grady Jarrett contract. Their multi-year cap outlook is not that ugly, and they'd be able to move enough money around where they could absolutely absorb it.

51:01Derrik Klassen: Let me ask you this, because I've been debating it since everything blew up. Crosby lands back in Vegas after having four days to think this through. The Raiders have spent$290 million. All of a sudden, considering Fernando Mendoza is about to be their quarterback, I don't think the Raiders is that troubling of a place to be anymore. And I wonder if Max Crosby feels the same way. Let's add one more layer to it.

51:26Robert Mays: Okay. The Raiders, I think they pissed him off, right? When it came to, we're going to shut you down for those last couple games. He did not take that well. But they honored his request for a trade. And I think based on everything that I had seen, they reached out to him immediately after this happened. He's back in the building now rehabbing.

51:42Derrik Klassen: And his farewell message was like very nice and above board and respectful.

51:47Robert Mays: is this a, hey, maybe the grass isn't always greener sort of experience for Max Crosby where he actually is open to coming back to a place where there has been a lot of love for him. And this also isn't that bad for the Raiders.

51:57Dave Helman: I saw when the trade got double backed on, people were like, oh, the Raiders just spent so much money. How can they afford this? They had so much money that actually fine to keep it on the books.

52:06Derrik Klassen: To Robert's point about maybe the Ravens didn't miss the guys they lost. Like the Raiders had so much money. They don't give a shit about Max Crosby's money landing back on their cap. at least not in the short term. But if I'm Max Crosby... Even with Max Crosby, by the way, on their cap.

52:21Robert Mays: They have$38 million. Exactly. They are not pinched for any of this.

52:26Derrik Klassen: They are totally okay. So Crosby now gets back to the strip and Quidipe is on the line with him. Quay Walker and N 'Kobe Dean are at linebacker. Teron Johnson is in the secondary. Linderbaum plays center. They brought back Eric Stokes. Brought back Stokes. And Fernando Mendoza is going to... the number one pick in the draft is going to be playing quarterback. Like if I'm Max Crosby, you get back and you're just sort of like, ah, this is pretty nice. I don't know. Like I wouldn't be surprised if the urgency to get out of there isn't as strong as it was a week ago.

53:02Robert Mays: And obviously the Raiders have come out and been like, our plan is to move forward with Max Crosby because that's what they have to say. You have to say that now, right? They have to take that line in order for teams not to think this is some sort of fire sale. But I don't know. It's going to be fun. If I were a team like the Bears, I'd call. I call and just see what the possible price was, because if it's going to be less than that, and they can fit him in under whatever, in any sort of financial way that they need to, I think that is a team, because Dallas has already said they're out. They've already allocated the money to Rashawn Gary.

53:29Robert Mays: I wanted to say that, though.

53:30Derrik Klassen: Like, the swiftness with which the Cowboys told everyone in the world they were out made me think, where I'm just like, are you really out or are you posturing because you don't want people to think that you're just willing to rejoin the sweepstakes for a one and a two, which was the price before he went to Baltimore. Well, I think there's a couple different things there.

53:48Robert Mays: One, they did already, you know, even if it's not finalized, they went through with the Rashawn Gary trade. And two, I mean, their doctor was one of the guys who gave the outside opinion on Max Crosby's knee, I think that led to the decision that the Ravens made. And so do they know too much now?

54:01Derrik Klassen: That kind of killed my conspiracy theory when I heard Dr. Cooper was involved, or I was like, all right, Dallas is probably out.

54:08Robert Mays: But the way they said that to everyone. Is it weird that I don't trust a doctor that wears that hat?

54:11Dave Helman: No. Weird hat, that's a good no trust. It's a Texas thing. I don't know.

54:18Robert Mays: If I walked into a doctor's office and I saw that guy wearing that hat, I'd leave.

54:22Derrik Klassen: I'm pretty sure he wears it as an homage to the original Cowboys doctor, if we're going down that wormhole. He doesn't wear it in the office, you think? No, no, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure if I saw him wearing that hat, he'd be out of there. Well, we've never been in the office, so we don't know.

54:37Robert Mays: Because all the pictures of him that have circulated over the last day, he is wearing the hat on the sideline. I don't trust it.

54:42Derrik Klassen: He wears it on game days. It's so funny, the stuff that I don't bat an eye at having lived in Texas for 10 years. It's like, yeah, that makes sense.

54:50Robert Mays: All right, guys, before we move on, we're going to take one more quick break.

54:57Derrik Klassen: Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of TED's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. Have you heard of Bill? It's the intelligent finance platform that uses AI to help you avoid costly errors and optimize cash flow. In fact, Bill reports that over 90 of the top 100 U.S. accounting firms trust them to manage, move, and maximize money, proven by over a trillion dollars in secure transactions. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven.

55:30Derrik Klassen: Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way bad actors attack companies, and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. 1Password lets you manage all your business's credentials, so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at 1Password.com slash special offer and start securing every login. There's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance.

56:08Derrik Klassen: and the biggest sale of the year. It's The Drop by GNC, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the pros who know what works. And right now, get it all, buy one, get one 50 % off during the semi-annual LiveWell sale. From crushing workouts to leveling up your nutrition and everything in between, get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the LiveWell sale on The Drop by GNC.

56:39Robert Mays: Sticky in the NFC East. The Washington Commanders have been busy just during this tire-free agent period, but since the last time we did the show. A lot of interesting signings. Guys that came up a lot when we were talking about who would be intrigued by their landing spots. Three different players, I think, of interest to the people at this table. Leo Chenal headed to Washington. That was one of the teams that we threw out that we thought might make sense based on Teronte Jones getting there as a defensive coordinator. Three years,$25 million, which is a pretty good price, man. I think that's a really good...

57:08Dave Helman: That's like a slight uptick on like what a lot of the like low number two linebackers are getting basically probably because he's a little bit younger than a lot of those guys.

57:15Robert Mays: And even it's kind of in between. It actually is funny because this is kind of the player that he is. It's right behind the aging number two guys and the defined number three guys like Stranod. It's like right in the middle of those two contracts. And I think that's exactly what Leo Chenault should get paid in the NFL because he kind of falls between those two things. He's like a linebacker two and a half. That's a little bit younger.

57:37Dave Helman: And he gives you a lot of the same things that Bobby Wagner was giving you, where he's not the greatest coverage guy. He's probably better. He's a little more mobile than Wagner was at this stage of his career. But between the tackles, knocking around guards, holding up grass, he can be very, very good at that.

57:52Derrik Klassen: How often do you think he's going to be in coverage? Exactly.

57:54Dave Helman: He has the added bonus of he played like half his snaps for Kansas City last year on the edge. So they can do that with him. So this is a really good signing, I think. I mean, he's a player that I think every now and then you get players at positions where it's like just kind of like weirdly backlogged on the team that they were on maybe they can jump into a bigger role. Chanel is kind of one of those guys for me.

58:14Robert Mays: And they also signed Klaven Chason one year 12 million. They already have Odafe Owe. And so now you start kind of play it with and playing with it in your mind. It's like they're going to line up these guys all over the place. I mean the body types they now have is still like we don't have any like real true scary difference makers in this group. But if you're trying to ascribe the ideas from the Vikings defense to this group of players up front, I don't know. I'm interested to see it with this group compared to what they had heading into free agency.

58:43Dave Helman: Oh, way more interested. Dorrance Armstrong is still there. Like, they've got some bodies for the pass rush to be pretty fun, I think.

58:48Derrik Klassen: And, I mean, it's only a one-year deal, but$12 million for Calavon is, like we theorized, he might only get like five or six a year depending on the size of the length of the deal and who wanted him. So not the long-term security, but that is a hefty salary for him. And if you weren't already interested enough. Oh, I saw.

59:06Robert Mays: Nick Cross, two years,$14 million to head to Washington.

59:09Derrik Klassen: I'm furious about that price. That's ridiculous. That like Nick Cross should be getting paid more money.

59:15Robert Mays: Why do you think in a world where, as we saw the market get set at twice that, heading into free agency where$13 million was the going price for a lot of those guys, we see Nick Cross at half of that?

59:27Dave Helman: I honestly don't know. I think maybe there's a little bit of like a lot of the other guys that are getting signed or a lot of the guys that people like, like maybe like a Jalen Thompson. There's a little bit more in the box, out of the box flexibility. Whereas with Cross, I do think in my mind, he's a little bit more. You just kind of want him down near the line of scrimmage hitting stuff. And so obviously he's a good player at that. But I think in a world where everyone is trying to do a little bit more too high, use our safeties in all these sort of ways. He's just not quite that kind of player.

59:55Robert Mays: coming across the timeline as we're sitting here one of the contracts i still felt like it was one of the bigger like this is a starting caliber player where does he end up type deals dylan parham to the jets two years 20 million per ian rapaport you look at that jets offensive line i mean that starting guard spot was really the one thing that was a question after uh they lost john Simpson in free agency. So now, I mean, you've got a really young group of offense. I mean, now it's set, right? Like now from left to right, I think you have all five of your starters and I don't know.

1:00:28Dave Helman: It's an interesting group. And this is offensive line works this way. The secondary works this way. We've talked about it with a number of players. Dylan Parham is not great, but if he's your worst starter, instead of being your second or third, the way that he was with the Raiders, that goes a long way for a player like him. And so if he just looks solid next to Olufoshanu and Josh Myers, it's probably pretty good for them.

1:00:47Derrik Klassen: I haven't taken the time to look this all over because deals are still happening and we're still in the moment. But if I lined up all of the free agency activity around the league, I think what the Jets have been doing the last few days would be one of my favorite teams. Like, I think they'd be on my short list of like, ah, I like the vision here. I see what you're doing. But that goes against all of my instincts as somebody that follows football.

1:01:13Dave Helman: And also, if you could like men in black erase how bad watching last year was and just kind of look at the roster, it'd be like, this is not that bad. Yeah, that's that's a that's a fair point, too.

1:01:23Robert Mays: Here's the problem. The coaching, not the coaching staff, but the coach who oversaw the how bad it was last year defense is still in charge.

1:01:33Dave Helman: That's what I'm saying. If we if I could men in black memory erase this thing, it might be OK. Because if I if I didn't know anything about Aaron Glenn's defense last year, I'd be like, oh, Aaron Glenn calling the defense. We're in a good spot.

1:01:42Derrik Klassen: Hey, this isn't going to make anybody feel any better, but it feels almost like no lose for the Jets because you're either surprisingly frisky or it all blows up and you're starting over. But with like big, big time capital and at least a few of these deals they've done, like a few, a few of the guys that have joined the team this week will be there and be useful for whoever's next. That's exactly right.

1:02:07Robert Mays: I think that there are a couple of different things happening here. And you can look at the collection of moves that they made. And I think that's why it's a nice collection of moves when you're trying to have like that line of thinking about it. So a lot of the like aging players that they signed on defense, those are guys who are going to be gone after next year anyway. And so those contracts, and even like guys that aren't necessarily aging, but like Minka, Nishan Wright, Demario Davis, David Onyemata, all of those guys, if this thing bottoms out, they're going to move on from them anyway. And then the other, the multi-year deals you've signed for guys like Joseph Osai, the trade for Devondre Sweat, Dylan Parham, that can be part of whatever 2027 looks like if you have a new coaching staff.

1:02:49Robert Mays: So there's really not a lot of downside to any of the things that they're doing. And so that's why it just, teams that when you have like a lame duck staff and you're throwing tons of money around, it's like, oh man, like, are you going to saddle the next group with a lot of like really bad contracts and you're going to put them in a really shitty situation? And the answer for the Jets is no. They're not compromising their future really in any way with some of the moves that they're making. The only thing is that, are you going to cut off development pathways for some of the young players that you're going to have on the roster because of some of the guys that you've signed?

1:03:23Robert Mays: And I'm just not sure that's really going to be the case. Where would that actually happen? If you have a corner that you draft in the first round, he's better than Sean Wright, he's just going to play.

1:03:33Dave Helman: Yeah, or Brandon Stevens is their other outside corner. If you draft a first-round corner, whoever it might be, if he's going to be better than one of those guys, you would hope, and that's not going to block anything.

1:03:44Robert Mays: Yeah. It's hard for me to get upset at really anything that they've done. The only real downside, and we talked about this yesterday, is the offense, and I don't think this is going to happen. I still think they're probably going to be pretty bad, but the offense ends up being a little bit too good, and you play yourself out of the range for a quarterback. That's it.

1:03:59Derrik Klassen: But if you have three first-round picks in 2027, then you can hopefully overcome that.

1:04:04Robert Mays: And we do this all the time where we try to like play it out in advance of like, you know, you should be really, really bad and get the number one pick. It almost never happens that way. Like the teams that get the number one pick often accidentally get the number one pick.

1:04:17Dave Helman: But like when the Bengals got, like I don't think the Bengals thought they were going to be that bad when they got the first over. The Raiders. Yeah, the Raiders did not think they were going to be that bad.

1:04:24Derrik Klassen: Well, and then, you know, there's so many times too where the team that heads into the season as the prohibitive favorite to be number one overall is surprisingly frisky. I think about it all the time. The Saints were probably pretty high up there. The Saints were the prohibitive favorite to pick first. And then in Gannon's first year in Arizona, we were joking about how they were tanking, and they were a surprisingly interesting team. Like, it's just, it's never as easy as you think. It might be as easy as you think for this year's Cardinals, though. It certainly looks that way right now.

1:04:57Robert Mays: Because at least the Saints gave them, like, the tire shuck thing is at least an unknown. It could be better than you think. Like, we probably know what we're getting with Jacoby Percent if that's what they end up going with.

1:05:05Derrik Klassen: It's March, man. What if Ty Simpson is a Cardinal in April? You know, like you never can say for sure.

1:05:13Robert Mays: Speaking of the Saints, Caden Ellis back to the Saints. Three years, 33 million, 23 million guaranteed. So Caden Ellis is a useful player for what Caden Ellis is. And so the Saints defense, it's something we'll revisit this offseason when we do lingering questions. Like how did the Saints finish with like a top 10 defense over the back half of the season? Because they did.

1:05:34Dave Helman: Sneaky good. They were sneaky. The only question I have about that, and Ellis is a very competent player, especially obviously as a blitzer guy moving forward. I do wonder how much of the mental stuff they lose because of Demario Davis being just like true communicator glue in the middle of the defense. I wonder how much of that they lose. But Ellis is obviously a good player and about as good moving forward as you can get at that position.

1:05:56Derrik Klassen: It's really fun to sign a 31-year-old linebacker and get significantly younger at the position.

1:06:02Robert Mays: Is it weird that I'm starting to develop some real optimism about the New Orleans Saints? No.

1:06:08Derrik Klassen: Oh, actually, I was joking about this. I get it, but I'm trying to temper it. I was joking about this in the Discord a couple days ago. By the time we get to the draft, we will be tired of hearing that the Saints are the trendy worst-to-first team. Like, look through the divisions, because obviously when we get to June and July, you're going to be looking for the worst to first contender. You can bring up the Titans if you want to, but like the Saints are going to be the overwhelming favorite because of the division and because of what they look like and what they've done. I think everybody's going to be on the Saints as like a trendy surprise playoff team.

1:06:41Derrik Klassen: Not to spoil your hopes and dreams, but the offensive line is where it starts.

1:06:45Robert Mays: Offensive line looks great. You have the young tackles. You get David Edwards in there now. with the way the quarterback played last year, they have a ninth overall pick, right? Are they picking a seven? No, eight. They pick an eight. So they're picking eighth, which I don't know, based on what everything that I understand about the draft, which is not much at this point, like some of the, like, Carnell Tate might be like, I mean, if they wanted to have another, like, bigger bodied receiver to go along with Olave, like, I don't know, man.

1:07:11Derrik Klassen: There would be a receiver there for them, very likely, or an edge, probably, if they wanted to go that way. Like, I think it's fair to say they're not going to draft Jeremiah Love now, but everything else is on the table. Starting to happen. Starting to get a little optimistic about the Saints. That's why this is the best league, is because last summer we were just shitting on them for being the prohibitive favorite to pick first overall. And now we're like, I don't know, man. Saints look like they could be a 10-win team. Got cap space back again starting next year.

1:07:41Robert Mays: There's a lot happening with the Saints.

1:07:42Dave Helman: Maybe that's why it all feels new and fun.

1:07:43Robert Mays: A team that I think is a little bit harder to get excited about, but they made a big move yesterday. It's a continuation of a lot of the moves that they've made. Elton Jenkins heading to the Browns, two years, 24 million. You look at that contract and you look at some of the other moves that they made, it seems like they might have him play center, which I'm not sure I love. Let me play out two versions of this for you, okay? The Browns offensive line can have, I was going to do this without looking at it, but I think I probably should look at it. You can have Zion Johnson at left guard. You can have Elton Jenkins at right guard.

1:08:15Robert Mays: And you can have Titus Howard at right tackle. Or you can have Zion Johnson at left guard, Elton Jenkins at center, and Titus Howard at right guard. Which one would you prefer?

1:08:27Dave Helman: I'd probably rather have the option where I could get Titus Howard at tackle. And also like the whole thing with Elton Jenkins at guard. And Jenkins at guard. And because the whole thing with Jenkins playing center is like he did not want to do that. No, he's been better as a guard. Yes, he was better as a guard and they ended up in the spot where Green Bay, where it was just like, this is kind of the guys we drafted and this is where we ended up, you have to move. And he was clearly unhappy about that. And so it would be a little bit, not shocking, but I would probably want to see him play guard if they can get it.

1:08:52Dave Helman: Maybe there's something they're going to get done with Wyatt Teller to bring him back at guard. I don't know, but I would be dubious of him playing center.

1:08:59Robert Mays: This to me feels completely just a, we need five bodies. All of their moves have been that. We'll figure it out later. That's exactly what the Browns are doing along the offensive line. And given the state of the situation, I don't mind it. All right. Those are all the big ones that have happened since we last recorded. We will be back here tomorrow for one last show. We probably won't spend as much time tomorrow running through the signings that have happened just because most of them will have already come down by that point. So we'll probably do a little bit of zooming out tomorrow and looking at what free agency has been like up to this point, just some signings we've liked, some fits that we've liked, do a little bit more of a bigger picture look at how the last few days have unfolded.

1:09:40Robert Mays: But very excited to have one more show coming your guys' way. We'll be here at 3 p.m. Eastern again tomorrow. We will not have a show on Friday. We'll just be back to a regular five podcast, five podcast a week, daily podcast is probably a good way to say that. We'll be back to having a podcast for you guys every day starting next Monday. So tomorrow will be our last live show as it relates to free agency. And then we'll be back on more of a normal cadence, but have really enjoyed this week. Hope you guys have as well. We'll see you tomorrow.

1:10:44Derrik Klassen: Transcription by CastingWords Visit Bill.com slash Proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's Bill.com slash Proven. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip-off. And Grainger is your trusted partner. Offering the products you need all in one place, from HVAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. and all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win.

1:11:21Derrik Klassen: Call 1-800-GRAINGER, visit grainger.com, or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. There's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year. It's The Drop by GNC, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the pros who know what works. And right now, get it all, buy one, get one, 50 % off during the semi-annual live well sale from crushing workouts to leveling up your nutrition and everything in between get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the live well sale on the drop by GNC.