Free agency day two: Perhaps you can go home again

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1:38Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Day two of the NFL free agency period. That's what we're digging into today. Not quite as fast and furious as day one. Not as many signings to comb through. But we had a couple big news items right before we started recording. Geno Smith traded to the Jets. We have Romeo Dobbs headed to the Patriots. There were some big ones that happened overnight that we did not get a chance to hit yesterday. Elijah Vera Tucker heading to New England. We have Devin Lloyd going to the Panthers. So we dug into all of those moves, plus some of the smaller ones that have happened over the last 24 hours with me, Derek, and Dave Hellman.

2:16Robert Mays: So let's get to that conversation right now.

2:24Robert Mays: We are back, breaking down the second day of the NFL free agency period. I actually don't know what to call it, the tampering period. It's the second day of the tampering period, but no, the bullets are flying. We know what's actually going on right now. Obviously not the same sort of back-and-forth affair that we saw yesterday, not as many high-profile names coming off the board. Most of the work, the big work, was done yesterday, but still plenty to dig into today. We had a couple things that happened overnight that were big-time signings that we did not get to on yesterday's show. We wrapped at about 5.30 p.m.

2:55Robert Mays: Eastern. And then Dave, right before we started recording, had a couple of things come across the board to make things a little bit more exciting for us as we got going today.

3:03Derrik Klassen: What if we have the ear of the league? Like, what if decision makers are like, all right, let's get on the phone. I'm sure that's true. Let's get on the phone so the Tafts guys have something to talk about. It felt like that. So I left the house at 1 p.m. Central to get here. And as I was like getting my keys and getting ready to go out the door, I was like, we talking about Kaimi Fairbairn today? Like what has happened that is worthy of airtime? And then on my commute, all hell broke loose. And we got Gino and we got Dobbs and Braden Smith. And by the time I got here, I was like, okay, we got it.

3:34Derrik Klassen: We got a good show to have.

3:36Robert Mays: Let's talk about the couple moves that happened right before we started recording, like Dave just alluded to. We'll talk about Gino in a second. But in terms of like money handed out, the biggest deal of the day so far, I want to say, is the one that Romeo Dobbs got from the Patriots. some conflicting reports. I think just the numbers have been all over the place when it comes to the exact details on this deal. But the number I've seen most consistently seems to be four years, $70 million, which makes sense. It's about exactly what Wando Robinson got. That contract thing had been reported at 78, but I think it's up to 78.

4:07Robert Mays: I'm pretty sure that both of those guys are right in the same range, like$17 million a year. And so$17 million a year for Romeo Dobbs, kind of about what we might have expected coming into this into this period for a guy like that

4:19Dave Helman: when you look at the market overall I think it's pretty reasonable and I think like some of the conflicting numbers have been up to almost 20 million a year which even that is not that crazy to me and I think especially for a team like the Patriots where what's the fond digs ended up giving them last year was digs early and here's his earlier in his career was a lot more explosive all that but really as a Patriot he was more kind of the underneath zone beater slot guy kind of just moving the chains for the Patriots. And they had other explosive elements like Kayshaun Booty. They're probably hoping that Kyle Williams can give them that next year.

4:49Dave Helman: Getting a guy like Romeo Dobbs, who can he just win for Drake May on third down consistently? I think that that's kind of all that they needed. And so I'm sure they were in on the Alec Pierce, you know, swing that everybody was trying to make. But I think this was probably about as good a consolation prize as they were going to get.

5:05Robert Mays: You look at that tier of receiver contracts over the last couple of years. It's a lot of the guys who've been hitting free agency. So you have Wando Robinson, Romeo Dobbs. This is a slight uptick on the deal that Cooper Cup got last year from the Seahawks. Just by AAV, I think the Cup guarantees were a little bit lower. He only had$17.5 million guaranteed, so it was more like a one-year deal. But in terms of AAV, it's right in that range. It's just below what Jerry Judy got a couple years ago. Obviously, based on inflation, that's probably closer to$20 million. But that's the kind of grouping that we're talking about here.

5:38Robert Mays: And then the other receiver contract, Dave, that comes in right around there last night, Rashid Shahid also getting$17 million a year from the Seahawks. So Wando Robinson, Rashid Shahid, and Romeo Dobbs all getting between$17 million and$17.5 million in the last day or so.

5:54Derrik Klassen: Do you feel pretty clearly that Dobbs is the best option of those three? No. No? I don't think so. Shahid brings a very rare... Which three? Dobbs, Shahid, and Wando. And Wando. I was going to ask you guys. I do. Do you think Dobbs is the best guy? Shahid brings like an element that you just, it's hard to find. I get that. The speed is very real and it is a valuable, valuable thing. But overall game and maybe the back half of his first year in Seattle, maybe I'm weighing that too heavily. I think that's, that was going to be the. I don't think you're crazy if you're willing to take a bet that Rashid Shahid has more than he showed in the second half of the season.

6:28Derrik Klassen: I don't think that's crazy. But I think Dobbs is the best overall player of those three, even if I think Shahid has the rarest skill set.

6:37Robert Mays: Here's how tight the grouping is, and here's how blurry I think the answer to that question is. I had this actual question in the rundown because I think it's worth asking. Didn't even look at it. I was curious what you guys would think about if you had to pick between those three guys, and do we think that Shahid is the best value of all three of them?

6:53Derrik Klassen: So it's close enough to ask. Shahid has the highest upside, but I feel the most confident about what I'm getting with Romeo Dobbs. How's that? I think that's the best way to frame it. I like that. So here's where I land with it.

7:04Robert Mays: I think what Dobbs provides you is the clearest, right, among all the guys. Like his ability to win in those situations on third down and what he showed you last year. I think he has the clearest utility to the offense in like one specific role. I think Shahid's overall contributions to the offense are the broadest. I think give you the most things. Like he is a speed guy first and foremost, but you can move him around a little bit. You can use him in a bunch of ways. I think Wanda to me is clearly like a half step down from both of them if I were trying to tier them out.

7:35Dave Helman: And Shahid does give you like incredible special teams value. Like he literally swung that Rams game that they had because he gives you that. And so I think my concern with kind of the back half of last year is him working with Kubiak again, who he had worked with in New Orleans. It was just a little bit weird to me that they could not figure out the best way to use him consistently over the back half of the year. Obviously, Sam Darnold just wasn't playing as well the second half of the year. But that gives me a little bit of pause. I also, for a deal like this where it's a healthy amount of money, but not insane, we're not paying top of the market, I kind of want to pay for, certainty is probably the wrong word, but a guy where I think his utility is the most clear.

8:09Dave Helman: So that's kind of the way that I fall with these contracts.

8:11Robert Mays: I'd be curious how Seattle, talking to somebody that have not done this yet, but just talking to people there about why they were willing to give him that deal after he wasn't super productive in the back half of the year. We're like, yeah, we had kind of, we knew what our offense was. We were kind of trying to get him involved midstream. now as we have an entire offseason with him, maybe he can be a little bit more productive. He can be a bigger part of what we're doing. I have no idea what the answer is, but the fact that they wanted to bring him back after he really wasn't that big a part of the offense in the second half of the season, I find that interesting.

8:40Robert Mays: Like they clearly didn't think, oh, this was a mistake. Like we shouldn't have made this deal if they're going to double down on it like this.

8:46Derrik Klassen: I don't want to classify it as money burning a hole in their pocket because that has a negative and like irresponsible connotation. But we talked about it heading into free agency. I do think the Seahawks are in a pretty enviable position for a team that just won the Super Bowl where like off the top of my head, Leonard Williams and Demarcus Lawrence are probably not guys you're even interested in extending when they get to that point. Right. Like two big pieces of that. You know, you're going to earmark money for Witherspoon and JSN, but that doesn't need to happen today. Byron Murphy's not even eligible for an extension.

9:21Derrik Klassen: you knew as soon as the Seahawks started talking to agents weeks ago, I'm sure they knew Boye Mafé was not a realistic possibility. And so you look at that and you're like, all right, we have, we have way more money than a team in our position typically does. And, and we can't even spend some of it yet. So like, who cares if we do Rashid Shahid for only three years for that matter? So I don't want to classify it as reckless, but it's just kind of like, well, we can afford to do this. Why not? And we're in a position where even if his value is mainly on special teams and like even if it's just the speed element, like if it doesn't show up in stats, I think that's fine for this team for the time being.

10:02Derrik Klassen: And I was thinking about that last night where I was like, well, they're probably in a position where this is a luxury they can afford to have. And it's probably not going to bite them if he doesn't completely live up to the salary.

10:13Robert Mays: On New England side of this for Dobbs, I completely understand it. Like it's a skill set that they needed within the offense. They were obviously in the Alec Pierce conversation before he went back to the Colts. There were only so many players that gave you this. There's a reason why all of the same teams were in on all of these guys. Like Washington, New England, all were in on Alec Pierce. They're the teams that reportedly were in on Dobbs. New England ends up getting him. And so his skill set within that offense, I think, makes perfect sense. You look at the other big deal the Patriots signed.

10:40Robert Mays: Was it yesterday or today? The Elijah Vera Tucker thing. I think that was late last night. late last night. So Elijah Vera Tucker also going to New England three years,$42 million. And so you're looking at that deal for Elijah Vera Tucker, three years,$42 million with, I think it was $21 million guaranteed. This is one of those deals that to me has like one of the wider range of outcomes of any of the contracts signed over the last couple of days, because to get him for$14 million in a world where Zion Johnson got 16 and a half and got$32 million guaranteed. if Vera Tucker can stay healthy this is one of those free agent contracts Derek that I think could look pretty good in retrospect if you're New England we I think we said this at some point

11:23Dave Helman: before on one of our earlier shows this to me is like the Jonah Jackson type of bet where obviously that was a trade but you are betting that this guy who has shown very high level play before who was a high draft pick can actually continue that and I think this is an offensive line that got away with a lot last year because I think the quarterback just kind of made up for a lot and And I think the scheme was obviously better than it had been the year before. So they went from 30th to 24th, the way that we've talked about. But I think when you have a young quarterback who has shown the ability that he's had, you don't want to just stay trying to fight to be the 24th best offensive line.

11:54Dave Helman: You need to take some of these swings. So if they do this, if Jared Wilson really handles center next year really well, which I liked him a good amount in college.

12:02Robert Mays: And so I think that was always going to be the case. It was one of those things where like that was their best five last year. They get Bradbury for the right price. And he's done it before you have a rookie quarterback.

12:10Dave Helman: but now that young quarterback has shown really high level ability. Now we can, we can take this younger center and probably be okay. And that's why.

12:17Robert Mays: So now we're talking about a Patriots offense that has Romeo Dobbs, Keisha on booty. Now with the, which those roles I think are, you know, fine together. And then we have to Mario Davis still in the mold, in the, in the fold here, the tight ends that they have, uh, Travion Henderson, Ramondre Stevenson, and now the offensive line left to right will Campbell, which that's an ongoing conversation, but before he got hurt last year, I think he played better before he got hurt last year than he played at the end of the season, which I think is important to remember. Elijah Vera Tucker, Jared Wilson at center.

12:49Robert Mays: You still have Mike Onwenu. You still have Morgan Moses. Like it's looking like, if you look at it across all 11 guys, like they've filled most of those roles. You have to feel like pretty good overall about the collection of players they have there. Now you can chase essentially whatever you want in the draft, you want some upgrades.

13:06Derrik Klassen: Do you buy the idea kicking around at all? and I don't think you would do this right away and I think it's very fair to point out that Will Campbell did get hurt but I saw people suggesting that Elijah Vera Tucker could play tackle if you decide Will Campbell is a guard. No. That would be crazy.

13:23Dave Helman: To do that when he's not been healthy I think would be a little bit scary. That feels like Galaxy Brain stuff.

13:28Robert Mays: It feels like what the Rams did two years ago with the Vila and Jonah Jackson.

13:32Dave Helman: Oh my God, yeah, I totally forgot about that.

13:33Robert Mays: We don't need to be doing this. Let's just let the guys play where they play.

13:35Derrik Klassen: I think I'm not scared enough by the playoffs yet to be trying to do anything that outside the box with Will Campbell.

13:44Robert Mays: If you're Washington now, what do you do at receiver? You've been in on all these guys. You missed out on all of them. They're not going to trade you A.J. Brown within the division. That seems like with the Patriots getting Dobbs, it feels like now A.J. Brown is off the table, right? Yeah. And so they seemed like one of the teams that probably were in the mix for A.J. Brown. But the A.J. Brown thing is, I heard, you know, I can't remember who was reporting it and I apologize, but the idea that Howie was trying to like do part of the deal now and part of the deal after June 1st so they didn't have to eat all the money.

14:15Robert Mays: But like that's the problem with this is that it really is not that tenable for the Eagles to trade him before June 1 with the money. And so if you want to sit there waiting around for A.J. Brown, you're going to miss out on all these guys. And for Washington, you're probably not an A.J. Brown team anyway. And so now they're sitting there with most of the receivers they were chasing off the board and they're still missing that. And so we'll see what happens. But it feels like if Brandon Ayuk is going to play, that might be the solution for them.

14:42Dave Helman: How much of a solution is that? Like that would really scare me if that's where they end up.

14:47Robert Mays: I think it's one of those things if it's the right price and you don't get burned if it doesn't work out, is it something that's worth chasing? Because he's going to be a free agent. It's not like you're trading for that contract. So if you can get him for a one-year flyer deal and he has to kind of rebuild his value a little bit, could that actually be the best thing for you in the end?

15:04Dave Helman: If the price is right, I could get that. I would still, they have to add, I would say even two more bodies if they're doing that. Because you just don't know what he's going to be at this point.

15:11Robert Mays: All right, so let me lay this out for you. If you're Washington, you can have Romeo Dobbs for four years,$70 million. I can't remember exactly what the guarantees were. Let's call it$35 million guaranteed. or you can have Brandon Iyuk for one year, 17 million. 17? I think Romeo Dobbs. I just, see, I'd rather take the, I'd rather roll the dice on Ryuk.

15:34Dave Helman: See, but you love those types of receivers and I love the Romeo Dobbs.

15:37Robert Mays: Brandon Iyuk was worth$30 million two years ago. We didn't play good ice. He hasn't actively wanted to play football.

15:42Derrik Klassen: There's a lot of stuff that's happened since then that you can't just overlook. No, I'd rather just roll the dice on Ryuk. My only impression of Brandon Iyuk since like that playoff run as him driving 100 miles an hour past the 49ers stadium on Instagram.

15:56Dave Helman: That's the only thing he's been in the news for. Them giving him$17 million feels like the most Washington thing that they could do.

16:03Robert Mays: There's only so much risk that comes along with that, though. That's a one-year deal. Lower that price if you want me to be in on it.

16:09Derrik Klassen: Like$17 million. Here's my argument. You've been hurt and you don't seem actively interested in playing football. Him signing the deal to me is an indication that he might be interested in playing football.

16:20Robert Mays: Okay. because that's never bitten anybody in the ass before. All right, let's get to the other big bit of news that came out right before we started recording. Geno Smith on his way back to the New York Jets. The sixth, seventh round pick swap. The Jets moved back about 20 spots in the draft. Really feels like to ensure that they get him. Jordan Schultz was reporting that the Vikings may have been circling. I think if they're trying to figure out why the Jets would do this rather than just waiting for him to be released. Again, you're only moving back 20 spots. Schefter reported that the Raiders are taking on the majority of the deal, so they're probably just going to pay just over the minimum, which is what they would have paid if he were to be released.

16:59Robert Mays: So what you're doing by trading away the pick and moving back 20 spots is you're making sure you're getting if another team was in the mix. So with Gino going to the Jets, there's a couple different ways that you can look at this, I think. The optimistic view is, okay, the offensive line is going to be better than it was with the Raiders last year, And so can we see a better version of Gino with the Jets than we saw last year with the Raiders? The pessimistic view is I've watched what the Frank Reich offenses and what those offensive infrastructures have looked like in his last year with the Colts and his only year with the Panthers.

17:33Robert Mays: and even if the offensive line talent is better with the Jets than it was with the Raiders last year I think there is still a real possibility that everything about this ends up being a disaster and Gino is wading through another river of shit the same way he did last season I'm a little bit

17:48Dave Helman: worried about that because yeah if you just look at the talent on paper obviously nobody on this team is as good as Brock Bowers or even Ashton Gentry I would say but the offensive line is tenfold better than what the Raiders have and Gary Wilson is a very good player yeah exactly It's not like he's it's not like they have nothing or receiver if he's healthy. But yeah, the Frank Reich of it all kind of scares me a little bit. What I would say, I want to be clear. I'm not buying into the Frank Reich offense again. I'm not going to fall for that, you know, kick the football there. However, his offenses had typically worked when he had quarterbacks that he could put a lot on them mentally.

18:21Dave Helman: I do think Geno Smith is more that than like Bryce Young was or before that, like Carson Wentz was. And so I don't think it's going to work. But if you're trying to spin it optimistically, that's where it would land. I want to be clear. I don't believe that.

18:34Derrik Klassen: The Jets feel like such a damned if you do, damned if you don't team. So after we got done yesterday, the Cardinals signed Gardner Minshew, and it comes out overnight that like, oh, it's Jacoby Brissett and Gardner Minshew. And so you're just like, this is a tank team. Like this team is gunning for the best prospect. There is no better tank commander quarterback than Jacoby Brissett.

18:56Robert Mays: And that is why when I was trying to play quarterback matchmaker this offseason, I thought Jacoby Persett going to the Jets was the best possible solution. Played for Frank Reich in Indianapolis. Notoriously good dude to have in the locker room for a young team that's actively tanking. And he makes your offense watchable. Like if there are fates worse than being the 2025 Arizona Cardinals offense. There are fates way worse than that. And so you get, you can evaluate your young players. He's good enough for you to evaluate your young players. He clears so many bars if you're a tanking team. I honestly feel like if you're the Jets, Gino might be too good for what you actually want to accomplish this year.

19:38Robert Mays: So that's what I was going to say is by all right circumstances, not last year, Gino, he's bad enough to get you where you want to go.

19:44Derrik Klassen: Just to be clear, the Jets appear to be like they're attempting to be an honorably bad team. Like it's like a bad team that you can you can sort of squint and see the vision. And you're like, oh, these these guys could be feisty. Like this is all of a sudden we got a ton of veterans on this defense that are going to know what they're doing. And Gino, like you just said, can get the results you want in the right environment. But then you think and you're like, to what end? Like, are the New York Jets realistically going to finish better than third in their division and like make any legitimate noise?

20:15Derrik Klassen: Probably not. And so it's hard to get excited about them. But at the same time, like, I do think there's more honor in what they're trying to do than just saying in March that Gardner Minshew and Jacoby Brissett are your options at quarterback.

20:28Robert Mays: I think that's a perfectly reasonable approach to being an being an honorably bad team. If you're the 2026 Jets, I think is completely fine. And for the most part, the deals the Jets have signed, you know, Demario Davis is a two year deal, but it's 15 guaranteed. You can move on from Demario Davis after this year if you want to. Kings and Agbari deal is one year. Joseph Osai is a youngish player. And so if you see him, he's 25. Joseph Osai is right now. He hasn't turned 26 until April. So you're going to have him for his age is 25, 26, 27, 28 seasons. So even if you're not competitive for three years, he's under contract for three years.

21:03Robert Mays: Like that's the type of free agent deal I think is totally reasonable for a team in the stage that the Jets are in. And so all their moves in conjunction with one another, I do think that's the goal is like, let's be not embarrassing in the short term, but also not take away from any of the real resources we need two years from now when we can be competitive.

21:22Derrik Klassen: Just don't play your way out of the quarterback range. And we don't know what that is right now. But I would prefer teams to be honorably bad. I think that's more interesting. And it gives, you know, Jets fans over the last two days. I don't know. I think if you're a Jets fan, you can sit there and be like, this should be, like, hopefully a watchable team and not just like an embarrassment of a football team. but that sounds great until there are it's a two quarterback draft and you're picking sixth or it's a three quarterback draft and you're picking eighth i mean there's no there's no

21:52Robert Mays: good answer to that here's the argument from my end you're not just picking sixth or eighth

21:57Derrik Klassen: you're picking eighth yeah 17th and 25th the the stockpile might come in handy which is a nice ace

22:04Dave Helman: to have up your sleeve then being decent might not really hurt them that bad because of what you're

22:09Robert Mays: That's always good in theory.

22:10Dave Helman: You would still have to give up stuff, but you have the ammo to do it.

22:13Robert Mays: To me, it's not about giving up stuff. To me, it's that we do this all the time, where you think like, oh, well, you have two first-round picks. The perfect example of this is Minnesota two years ago, where they have those two first-round picks, and all those teams in range to pick those quarterbacks are like, why would I give up the chance to pick? I have what you want. Why are the picks more valuable to me than the chance to pick the quarterbacks? every once in a while, this does happen, right? Like this happened with Bryce Young and the Panthers when the Bears decided to move back out of the first overall pick.

22:44Robert Mays: But if the quarterback prospects are worth having and worth being excited about, are you going to find a trade partner to dance with you if you need to move up for one? That becomes the question.

22:53Derrik Klassen: I say this all the time on Building the Beast. I'm just, I don't want to live in the world of looking to the next draft anyway. I mean, obviously, you know, the 2024 draft is looking like it could deliver on the hype, But I'm tired of doing that. Oh, next year could be great. And we're already doing it right now. And maybe it will be. But I don't know. I'd rather be honorable. I'd rather want to watch my team on Sunday at the end of the day. And the odds that it's going to completely screw you over, I think, are not as good as people act like they are.

23:23Robert Mays: We've talked about this a bunch. just the idea of tanking in a vacuum versus tanking in reality and how hard it is and how kind of erosive it is to your culture and building to be that bad and that purposefully bad and have no like real people at the front of this thing. And so the fact that the Jets, I just said the Raiders, the fact that the Jets have tried to gesture at the idea that they're trying to be at least a little bit competitive, I think there is potentially value in that. All right, before we move on, let's take our first quick break.

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26:04Robert Mays: The big deal that happened last night that I found really interesting, I think there's a lot to dig into here. Devin Lloyd headed to the Panthers three years, 45 million, 25 million dollars guaranteed. Really the same general area of the Quay Walker deal, which we'll talk about in a second. I mean, I think when we were talking about the Devin Lloyd deal and the potential range of the Devin Lloyd deal. Last week when we were discussing free agency and there was a thought that could he get 20 million dollars a year based on the way that he played? And so for him to come in at this number, Derek, which is kind of bunched up with a lot of the other linebacker contracts we've seen over the last couple of years, I felt like was a little bit surprising.

26:42Dave Helman: I thought because of the age, because of some of his athletic potential, him obviously just coming off of his best football, that he would get more than what Nick Bolton got, which was about 15 million a year. And he's not getting any more than that. And so that part of it has been a little bit curious to me. Obviously, he's a touch older than Nick Bolton is, but like he's still, this is prime of your career football. It should be like 27, 28, 29, 30. I think for a linebacker is very much like primary career football, especially when the whole thing with Devin Lloyd coming out, and this has still been true, is he is an exceptional athlete.

27:12Dave Helman: Like the way that he can move backwards, the way that he can go sideline to sideline. And so I have expressed my concerns that I still think that one year of good play from the kind of player he is, and I think some of the interceptions being really lucky, I think I'm a little bit dubious of this contract, or what the contract that he might have signed if it was$20 million. But honestly, at$15 million, him bunching in with some of the other guys, I don't think it's that bad, honestly.

27:35Robert Mays: So I don't think it's that bad either. I think that you kind of have to be happy about this if you're the Panthers, given where he might have signed. And so I was talking to somebody in the league last night because I was like, man, it seems like a little bit less than you would have thought. And so the few factors I think that played into this one, his age is surprising for a player that is heading on to his second contract. So I comp this a little bit to the Tremaine Edmonds deal when because Tremaine Edmonds, I think our career arc was similar. They were first round picks. They didn't hit until the final year of their contract as kind of elite players.

28:06Robert Mays: And then they get paid big money in free agency. Tremaine Edmonds was drafted in 2018. Okay. Devin Lloyd was drafted in 2022. They're drafted four years apart. Tremaine Edmonds is five months older than Devin Lloyd.

28:22Dave Helman: I was going to say Edmonds was probably what, 23 when he's done that other deal? Yes. So they're both 27 now.

28:27Robert Mays: And so that to me, I didn't realize that when I was thinking about them kind of following that similar arc because they're at the same point in their careers. So Tremaine Edmonds, again, is only five months older than Devin Lloyd right now. So the age is part of this. The one year production is part of this. And I think the other element of this, it was a flooded market with off ball linebackers. I mean, there's so many guys you could have signed maybe one step down from that. I think it does the opposite of something like the John Franco Myers market that we saw yesterday or the Tyler Linderbaum market after Biash and McGovern are gone, where because there's only one guy left, that's how the number gets totally pumped up.

29:03Robert Mays: And for a guy like Devin Lloyd, when there's so many players available that teams were chasing yesterday, I think that's why you see that number fall back a little bit compared to what we might have expected it to be.

29:13Derrik Klassen: You ever wake up in the middle of the night and somebody's watching you and just as you're about to have a panic attack, you turn on the light and it's like a pile of clothes sitting on your chair? Yes. Devin Lloyd and Kway Walker, both for me, where I was like, this isn't scary at all. What was I worried about? Like, I would have been happy to have either of these guys at these prices. And I expected it to be a lot higher, I think. And maybe teams are learning their lesson. Like, maybe you can, like, you can, obviously, you're going to have to spend a lot of money to get guys at the top of the market.

29:45Derrik Klassen: But some of these prices don't seem as silly as what we've gotten used to. I mean, the Jermaine Edmonds deal is burned into my brain because I remember listening to this show when it happened and you in the moment trying to process it and being like, this just doesn't feel like it's going to age well. And Devin Lloyd might not ever be as good as he was this year, but at this price, I don't think that matters to the Carolina Panthers. It's just it's not a steep price to pay. They were also their linebackers were so bad last year.

30:14Dave Helman: I kind of get them looking at just whoever they can pay that amount of money to. And so even if Devin Lloyd, if they only get C minus value on this deal, he is still going to be a significantly better player than any of the guys that were playing there last year, even if he's 80 % of the player that he was this year.

30:30Robert Mays: A couple of different things I want to talk about as it relates to the Panthers. If I had told you two days ago that the Panthers would walk away from the first day of free agency and they would have Jalen Phillips and Devin Lloyd for$75 million, or excuse me, for, let me do the math in my head, for$45 million a year combined, that probably would be okay, right? Mm-hmm, just thought the split would be. Yeah, just thought the split would be different. But if I told you it would be for$45 million a year combined, you'd be like, all right, that kind of makes sense. Phillips for 25, Lloyd closer to 20.

31:01Robert Mays: Yes, so that was the thing about that last night. it's just like, well, this kind of eases the pain of paying Phillips$30 million a year. But I spent a lot of time over the last day or so thinking about the Jalen Phillips contract. And I had a couple of different things came to mind. The first thing was, if you were, because I thought that Baltimore would be potentially a Jalen Phillips team, that was a fit in my mind. And if you're Baltimore, Jalen Phillips got four years, $120 million. What Max Crosby has left on his deal is four years,$113 million. So now the trade for Max Crosby looks even better when you think about the money that you're paying Max Crosby compared to what a guy's making in the open market.

31:38Dave Helman: And a lot of that is not guaranteed for Crosby's deal. After this year, it kind of starts to go away.

31:41Robert Mays: They will touch it. They will do something to it, whether to move some money around or give him some more guarantees, whatever. But the fact that that's what's left, that looks pretty good right now. The other thing was, and I was just thinking about free agency in general and where free agency mistakes happen. And over the last couple of years, I feel like the ones that age poorest are when teams are paying average players like impact players. I don't think the real mistakes are when you're paying impact players like elite players, right? And the one that I would compare this to, when I looked at the Jalen Phillips contract and I think about what he was worth in a trade and what the contract was because he had some leverage in free agency, it kind of reminds me of the Montez Sweat contract from the Bears.

32:27Robert Mays: So Montez Sweat, I think, two years ago got$24 million a year on that extension after being traded. And so he has leverage because of that trade in the same way Jalen Phillips has leverage because he's a hitting free agency and multiple teams are bidding on him. The Sweat deal, he's not a 10-sack guy, right? He's not a superstar player, but you don't look at that contract and think, man, what an albatross, because you still feel the impact he's making on the game. And I think Jalen Phillips kind of falls into a similar category for me. You look at the contract and you're like, God damn, that's a lot of money.

33:00Robert Mays: But at the same time, he's a guy that's going to be impacting games for you. And even if you're having to pay a slight premium to get those guys, I still feel like those are the contracts worth handing out compared to giving guys that aren't making an impact, impact level money. I think about, again, you talk about Bears players, like Dio Dengbo is that contract, right? Like those to me are the real mistakes. This type of contract for Jalen Phillips doesn't feel like that much of a mistake. And the other deal that I would comp it to, and again, I think this has to be playing into the thinking for Carolina, Milton Williams is exactly that type of player where they paid Milton Williams elite money for an impact player.

33:36Robert Mays: And I think Carolina probably looked at what happened last with this year with Milton Williams and thought, we're not going to let that happen again. Not again. We're not going to let three or four million dollars be the difference between us finding an impact guy up front that we desperately need.

33:49Dave Helman: And even similarly to the Williams deal, because he's a little bit younger and because there have just been some weird stuff with Phillips' career just in terms of some of the injuries and him not having that many healthy seasons, there's a chance that you pay to get an impact player and then he ends up closer to elite the same way that Milton Williams did. Milton Williams ended up better than the deal that they gave him. I think there's less of a chance of that with Phillips.

34:10Derrik Klassen: But again, I think the thought process I'm okay with. 100%. I do think it comes with a very real risk of being, an albatross because of the injury history. The injury history is a different conversation. I think that's absolutely correct. I said this on our discord chat last night. It might blow up in my face, but I'm not projecting anything with Jalen Phillips. At least I don't think I am. Like I've watched enough of him to be like, this guy is a badass. He's going to do this. He can impact the game in this way. I am a hundred percent confident if he's on the field, he can be worth this paycheck.

34:43Derrik Klassen: The injury is the big, or the injury history is the big question mark, but I'll take my chances that he's put that behind him. And if he's available, I'm not projecting the type of player he can be. I know exactly what type of player he can be. And that, even with the injury history, that makes me a little more comfortable taking the risk. In terms of how he plays, I don't think there's a lot of guesswork there. It's just keeping him on the field.

35:07Robert Mays: All right, let's bring up the top 150 and see where we're at right now with what that collection of players looks like. Daniel Jones is at four. Or we have some initial reports from Jordan Schultz that Colts and Daniel Jones are inching toward an extension even if they haven't reached one yet. The Trey Hendrickson situation is fascinating, how that has kind of unfolded over the last couple hours. And I saw Adam Schefter talking about it today, and it seems like there is a significant gap between what Trey Hendrickson thinks he's worth and what teams are willing to pay Trey Hendrickson.

35:33Dave Helman: Are we surprised by that? In what way? Are we surprised that teams are not willing to give him that amount of money?

35:40Derrik Klassen: Am I surprised that teams don't want to pay a 31-year-old player who missed most of last year? With a core injury, which seems, given the way that he plays the position, probably pretty impactful. Am I surprised that they don't want to pay him north of$30 million a year? No, I'm not surprised.

35:54Robert Mays: So I think the reports were that there was a$10 million gap between what Trey Hendrickson was asking for and what teams were willing to pay him. What do you think that $10 million gap looks like? What do you think are the two numbers that equate to that$10 million? You think he's asking for$35 ,000 and teams are willing to pay$25 ,000? That's what it feels like to me.

36:13Derrik Klassen: That is probably the right range. It's funny you say that because when I saw this report, when I saw Shefter talking about it on Tuesday morning, I was like, surely we can just do like$24 million fully guaranteed and call it a day. So yeah, that sounds about right to me.

36:28Robert Mays: The problem is there are a couple numbers out there that I'm sure Trey Hendrickson's camper pointing at and saying, well, what is different about his career than guys like this? The Daniil Hunter contract, the fact that Daniil Hunter is making$40 million on that extension, I'm sure the Trey Hendrickson people are going to teams and being like, well, why isn't he worth this? Two years ago, he was an all-pro player. What's the real gap between him and Daniil Hunter? My answer to that is Daniil Hunter is sent from outer space. Yeah, he sends so.

36:56Dave Helman: They don't make a lot of athletes like that. Normal aging curves don't apply.

36:59Robert Mays: Have you seen pictures of Daniil Hunter?

37:02Derrik Klassen: Daniil Hunter also looked like one of the very best edge rushers in football. all of last season. I mean, sorry, it's a cliche, but what have you done for me lately? That's the NFL.

37:12Robert Mays: Speaking of the Houston Texans, the Houston Texans with another offensive line signing today, Braden Smith, formerly of the Colts going to the Texans, two years,$20 million. I think it was Ian Rappaport tweeted that it's a starting tackle that can play guard is what he said. And I thought that was interesting framing and not surprising. I talked to a couple of people at the combine that thought Braden Smith might profile best as a guard moving forward. And so if you're looking at this, if you're Houston. And they re-signed Trent Brown. So they re-signed Trent Brown. And so you have Trent Brown on a one-year$7 million deal at right tackle.

37:47Robert Mays: You have Braden Smith in the building now at two years,$20 million. You brought back Ed Ingram, I think,$12-ish million a year. And obviously you still have Arante Aresri from last year, and then Jake Andrews was there. This feels to me like we didn't want to overpay for any of the guards available on the market. We didn't feel like that was worth it. I think if you have Braden Smith at one guard spot, Ingram at the other guard spot, and you have Trent Brown as a placeholder at right tackle, and then you just say, with all of these picks that we have, which they have a ton of picks, by the way.

38:15Robert Mays: I mean, the Texans have way more draft capital in this draft than you think that they do. They're picking 28th. I guess it's less than I expected, because they don't have their own third-round pick or their own fourth-round pick, but they have an extra two, and they have the 69th pick in the draft to beat the Giants. so right now the Texans have four picks in the top 70 and they have five picks in the top 106 so they only have seven overall but they have more kind of squeezed into the top 100 than you might expect so the Texans sitting there and saying okay we've got we've solved this enough where if we had to play a game tomorrow we could and we can use our draft capital and those second and third round picks whatever way we want maybe add competition to the room I think it's a

38:59Derrik Klassen: reasonable approach. I enjoy the way the Texans are approaching their offensive line like a like a baseball outfield, just like platooning guys. They're like, as long as we got the bodies to handle the spots, we'll figure out where they all go later.

39:13Robert Mays: I can understand teams looking at the sticker prices of a lot of these guys signing in free agency on the offensive line and saying, we have no interest in that. Right. Like if you're the Texans, would you rather just say, we'll get Braden Smith for$10 million rather than paying Zion Johnson$16 million when And really the difference in that is some nebulous idea of potential because he's a little bit younger. Like I think history tells you that second contract guys are worth chasing in free agency. Interior offensive linemen, I think the conversation changes a little bit because of what matters most there.

39:47Robert Mays: And I think certainty is really important at those positions.

39:49Dave Helman: In most cases, teams will pay good young offensive linemen. Once guys start to get up to 28, 29, 30, it starts to become a little bit of a conversation. but teams want to keep their young offensive line, their good young offensive linemen. So I'm kind of with you. I, again, we can quote with like, how good is Brayden Smith really going to be? Can he stay healthy? All that other stuff. I would have rather done this than sign like a Zion Johnson for the amount of money that he was going to command.

40:11Derrik Klassen: I liked it a lot. Just thinking of him as a guy that plays right tackle. If you're telling me there's some flexibility there and he can do more for you than that, I like it even more. This is one of my, it's definitely one of my favorite signings of Tuesday, if not all of free agency so far. When he's been healthy,

40:25Robert Mays: I mean, he's worth$10 million a year as like a swing piece on your offensive line. And so you can see kind of the strategy for Houston's offense coming together. I mean, they're set at really a lot of premium positions, right? I mean, maybe you can start to think about what a succession plan for Daniil Hunter looks like. But we know they have Will Anderson. And then I think defensive tackle is where they need to get younger, right? Like that's where they don't, Sheldon Rankins is going to be 32, I think, this year. Defensive tackle is probably a position where they need to get younger. but corner is a spot that's very well set up for them.

40:56Derrik Klassen: I would hope that none of this would stop them from drafting an offensive lineman with a big pick. I think that's kind of what I mean, though. That's where they can be spending some of this draft capital

41:05Robert Mays: because they have a lot of flexibility and a lot of youth in a bunch of these other places, especially on offense. That receiver room, we're good, right? Like, we're all set there. You got Nico, the two guys from Iowa State last year, and it sounds like Tank Dell is going to be, like, in the mix for them this year. So the pass-catching spots, I mean, I think those are pretty well positioned right now. You still need a running back, but being able to just kind of throw a couple of picks at the offensive line. Well, they have Montgomery. That's right. That's right. And so, so being able to throw a couple of picks to the offensive line and just being like trying to foster some competition in that room.

41:37Robert Mays: Like, I think it just gives them some flexibility to go whatever direction they want to in the draft. And I think that's a good thing. That's the goal for me. Travis Kelsey back to the Kansas city chiefs one year, $12 million. This is always what I expected to happen. Like if he was going to play, I didn't expect him to play anywhere else. I can't really get worked up about this.

41:58Derrik Klassen: That felt like such a, it felt like a psyop. There were like three days of, oh, he might go somewhere else. I was like, why? Why would he do that? What's the point?

42:07Robert Mays: The only team, like the only situation where it's like, all right, would he be interested in doing this is like going to the Rams, something like that. Like you're going to LA, but like that, they don't need a player like that right now when you look at their roster. So I don't know what the landing spot would have been that would have made sense.

42:23Derrik Klassen: And for what? Just so you can be the latest guy to add to the slideshow of like Emmitt Smith in a Cardinals uniform? Like just one random year of Travis Kelsey in like a Browns uniform? Right. Because that's where he's from?

42:36Dave Helman: And usually guys like this stage, at least that would make some sort of sense if the Browns weren't like one of the worst teams in the league. Like with a guy like Travis Kelsey, usually maybe you could see, yeah, they hop one year and go try to win a ring somewhere. I know last year went the way it went for Kansas City, but it's still Patrick McClure.

42:52Derrik Klassen: I'm going to go try to get one more ring by leaving the team that's played in the AFC title game seven of the last eight years.

42:59Robert Mays: The other tight end news that we did not hit yesterday was actually a deal I think that was signed during the live stream. We just didn't get to it for whatever reason. KDOT and back to the Bucs. Three years, 30 million. It's interesting that when we were discussing the tight end market last week and trying to figure out and predict what might happen, One of the conversations we had is, would you rather have Kate Otten at like the Jake Ferguson price or would you rather have Charlie Kohler for like$6 million a year? And in reality, Charlie Kohler signs for$8.5 million a year and Kate Otten's right in that general range of$10 million.

43:32Robert Mays: So it's not, the gap between them wasn't very big.

43:35Derrik Klassen: I had a feeling Charlie Kohler was going to get a hefty pay bump. But also, like the Kate Otten salary is not as bad as I, like 10 years for$30 million is, it's a nice chunk of change, but it's not prohibitive for me. Like I wouldn't be like, same thing I said with the linebackers. Like I'm not afraid of K. Dotting at that price. He's making as much money as Juwan Johnson. It's kind of,

43:56Robert Mays: that's the contract that I think is most similar. And when you think about it and through that lens where it's kind of like, that kind of makes sense. Yeah. K. Dotting and Juwan Johnson making the same money, I think is probably where it should land.

44:06Dave Helman: Yeah, exactly. Like he's making as much as like Evan Ingram got with the, with the Broncos, which obviously he was a little older, but like he's in that thing. Like he's got as much as what Dawson Knox just got on his extension, basically like that. range of tight end where it's like he's not perfect, but he gives us something, can play in line a little bit, does a little bit of everything. That's a totally acceptable contract. I did think this would creep higher to like 12, 13. I thought he would maybe get into like the Cole Komet range and he just didn't.

44:31Robert Mays: Two linebackers signing with the Las Vegas Raiders. Similar price ranges. Very different. I mean, the buddy comedy we're going to have with 6-4 Quay Walker and 5-11 N 'Kobe Dean playing in the same linebacker room is very fun. Again, by the way. Yeah, right. And so what do you think about this, Derek? Quay Walker and N 'Kobe Dean, them throwing money at their linebacker problem in Las Vegas.

44:54Dave Helman: I'm surprised the numbers ended up as close as they did. And I think that is a little bit more to me. I thought Quay Walker would maybe command a touch more money just because, again, guys built like that at that position are a little bit harder to find. N 'Kobe Dean, I think you can argue right now is a better player, but just because a little bit smaller, I think kind of limited in what he gives you, even if he's incredible at the handful of things that he does. and also just more injury concerns with him, I think has been an issue, but I really liked them going out and solving the problem this way.

45:20Dave Helman: Like obviously last year, they were piecing it together with a bunch of mercenaries. Basically, it was like moving 30 something year old Jamal Adams to linebacker, Devin White, Alandon Roberts, like them going out and getting guys who, even if imperfect, maybe Quay Walker isn't as good as you want for the contract and all that. These are guys who are quality starting NFL linebackers. And I do think Dean, this was a front to me that felt very, other than Isaiah Polamau in their secondary, this was a front and secondary that just felt kind of slow as tacklers. Like it was well constructed, but they just didn't feel like they had a lot of pop.

45:52Dave Helman: Koi Walker and N 'Kobe Dean give you a lot more pop and range than I think they had. So I'm going to need to see how they fix the defensive interior in front of them because I think we saw with Koi Walker specifically, he really struggled last year with the Packers when they were down to like DT five and six and all that stuff. And I think he struggled a little bit, but so long as that room is passable, I think these guys are going to play pretty well.

46:12Robert Mays: What a weird team the Raiders are. I don't even mean that in a pejorative way. Because it's like, you know, you're signing these two guys. They had a desperate need at linebacker. Like you completely understand with all the money the Raiders had, you know, trying to fix this problem this way. Linebackers are typically a decent thing to spend money on in free agency because we know the development curve at that position can be a winding road. And so watching guys that have at least shown something something and paying a premium to find some certainty and stability at that position. I think there are worse ways to approach that spot.

46:44Robert Mays: But now, like you just said, the front needs completely, needs to be completely remade. They signed Quiddy Pay yesterday, but that really is all they've done. Every other spot you can probably use an upgrade. And then you look at the offense, obviously they spent the money on Tyler Linderbaum, but they still probably have a needed, they still have a needed guard theoretically, even with Charles Grant, Caleb Rogers being third round picks from last year. We'll see what happens at right tackle with DJ Glaze like we know what they're spending the first overall pick on but Dave I just wonder like where they use the rest of this draft capital because even on offense where you're trying to make sure that you have enough as much stuff to all of this possible because you're dropping the number one pick into that there's still like some pretty massive glaring holes on this team and like we just showed with the top 50 like most of the starting level players in free agency are coming off the board especially up front well and I think I think the

47:34Derrik Klassen: Raiders, considering that they're picking number one in the draft and they were the worst team in the NFL, I think I'm cool with them stopping here in terms of major acquisitions. I think they did good work here, honestly, and I joked about it yesterday. With the exception of Linderbaum being one of the most eye-popping contracts we've ever seen, I thought they did a good job being financially restrained with a lot of these other guys like that sounds silly when you spent 280 million dollars in a day but we we've been talking about it for a minute not like none of these linebacker contracts came in at a at a rate that like just kills you quiddy pay was the same way where it was like oh we thought he might get a little bit more than that like this isn't a prohibitive contract I feel the same way about Jalen Naylor late round pick swap for Teron Johnson who wasn't great for Buffalo last year but the great thing about being bad is everyone's an upgrade for you if you're the Raiders so I really like what they did.

48:33Derrik Klassen: And then you look at it and what? Let me refresh my memory. I know they have Baltimore's pick. So Fernando Mendoza is going to be on this team. Pick 14, pick 36, pick 67. I mean, you can go in a variety of different ways there. I think you probably want to address the front, even still with Quidipe on the team. You could do that with 14. I love the idea of adding an offensive lineman to this group. That's kind of my thought.

48:57Robert Mays: If you can add like a rookie right tackle with the 14th overall pick, I know there's some guys who might be available in that range.

49:02Derrik Klassen: I said it when the Ravens had the pick, and I'll just move it to the Raiders now that they own it. Pick 14 just feels like a great landing spot for Vega Ioane out of Penn State, who is just a big badass mauler. And you put those two guys in front of Fernando Mendoza, I'd be pretty pumped about what that might look like. But yeah, I mean, there will be edge rushers available if I had to guess. You could take a developmental offensive tackle if that's what you wanted to do. I think at least one of the top three corners in the draft would probably be there at 14 if that was something you wanted to do.

49:35Derrik Klassen: So I think you could take it any way you wanted to, honestly.

49:38Robert Mays: It's funny looking at the offensive linemen still available in free agency and just thinking, because with offensive linemen specifically, and especially on the interior, my thought is like, can we just get like starting caliber players in there when we're dropping the number one pick in? That's where my mind goes. And I honestly think the best potential option for them at guard right now among all the players still available in free agency is probably Dylan Parham. Just retaining him. He's probably bringing him back, yes.

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51:39Robert Mays: Let's look at a couple others. Speaking of just, you know, let's get this problem solved, veteran offensive line additions. Jermaine Illuminor back to the Giants, three years,$39 million. Shockingly low. I thought anyway.

51:51Derrik Klassen: Am I crazy? Nah. I don't think it's shockingly low. It was lower than I thought it was going to be. Jermaine Illuminor got a smaller contract than Elijah Vera Tucker. I think that... Elijah Vera Tucker is 26 years old. I know, but offensive tackles play well into their 30s all the time. Like, if you're 31 playing your best ball, that doesn't scare me. And that's Jermaine Illuminor. I mean, great for the Giants to get that discount and get to keep their guy. But when I saw that number come in, I was pretty surprised it was that low. Yeah.

52:24Robert Mays: I'm looking at the comparable contracts right now. And they're really, here's what I'll say. There really aren't any, right? And so for the most part, a lot of the other guys making between 12 and$18 million a year as right tackles that have gotten, you know, second or third contracts. Most of them are second contract guys that were extended. Zach Thomas at 22 and he's moved down. On Wenu, Brian O 'Neill, Spencer Brown, Mike McGlinchey, Terrence Steele, Abe Lucas, Caleb McGarry, Colton McKivitts. Jack Conklin is probably the best comparison. He got a new deal at 30 and that was for$15 million a year.

53:02Robert Mays: And then Illuminor comes in right behind that. And so maybe it's a little bit less. Maybe you do get up to that like McGarry McKivitts Conklin number. And, but at the same time, he's 31 years old. I think he, this is his age 32 season. So that's probably the explanation. I think you're right.

53:17Derrik Klassen: I just, I think of offensive tackles like hockey players. Like it's not weird to see an offensive tackle playing well and being like, holy crap, that guy's 37 years old. So why don't we do this?

53:28Robert Mays: Here's my rationale for it. Morgan Moses got 8 million last year. You're just getting 1 million per year. More. 1 million dollars per year more. Yeah. Per year younger. Yeah. So you get one year younger, you get$1 million more. Because I do think that like Illuminor is in the, how all quarterbacks are just versions of Kirk Cousins. Illumor is definitely like three years ago Morgan Moses. That's kind of what he is as a player. And so I think the fact that Morgan Moses got eight last year from the Patriots on that deal and Illuminor's at 13, I can understand on the spectrum how you arrive at that landing point.

54:03Robert Mays: Isaac Salomalu, again, you're talking about sort of veteran offensive linemen, the price that you have to pay for veteran offensive linemen, three years,$31 million to go to the Cardinals. Here's the only reason this is frustrating for me. This is one of those to what end moves. Like, so Amalo, because with the offensive line, I think if Jacoby Percet's going to be back there, I don't think the idea of signing a 31-year-old guard is all that important. This is the type of move I wanted the Cardinals to make last year, not the type of move I wanted the Cardinals to make this year. And that's why it's just slightly frustrating to me.

54:38Robert Mays: He's a good player. He's worth the money. I just am curious like how it fits into the multi-year plan for the Cardinals.

54:44Dave Helman: I'm more curious on the to what end for from his perspective. Like I would assume that he could have gotten similar amount of money for more competitive teams than the Cardinals are going to be.

54:54Robert Mays: So I mean, this here's exactly where I land with this. Why wouldn't the Raiders give Isaac Salomone with this deal, knowing that you're dropping Fernando Mendoza in there? So just the Cardinals, not because of need, they absolutely need a player like this. but just in terms of where the Cardinals are, it's just a kind of a strange fit to me from that perspective.

55:14Dave Helman: Yeah, last year this would have been awesome, but not as exciting now.

55:18Robert Mays: It's the exact type of player I've been wanting them to sign

55:20Derrik Klassen: for like three years. I'm always so curious by what motivates different guys. I don't know. Like I would imagine a better team gave Salamalu a comparable deal, but maybe this was the best guarantee structure. Maybe this was the best incentive structure. Maybe he loves the coaching staff there. Maybe he wanted to be back on the West Coast because he's an old Pac-12 guy. I don't know the answer, but I always wonder about stuff when I see a guy sign a deal that kind of makes your eyebrows go up like this.

55:52Robert Mays: Roy Lopez, back to the Cardinals, two years,$11 million. I love the run stuffers just getting upticks on their previous deals. Roy Lopez is now at$5.5 million. It was half that for the Lions last year. Same deal for Kairos Tonga where he's making more. his AAV is higher than his entire career earnings for the deal he just got in Kansas City. So I say that jokingly, it does feel like we're at a place where teams are valuing it more. But that one specific skill and yet that being your role within the defense, I think there is a higher valuation on that trait now than there has been in the last couple of years.

56:26Robert Mays: And I think there should be.

56:27Dave Helman: And there should be. And I think that like in a lot of years, there are a couple more guys that would like flood the market in that type of role. and there really were not that many of them who could be like a true nose guard for you in this. It was really those two guys. Yeah, it was just those two.

56:40Robert Mays: Those two guys. Let's get to the Chargers offensive line plan. This is the idea that the Chargers would sign Tyler Linderbaum for$20 million a year. I never bought. This is exactly what I expected the Chargers to do in free agency. Their big splash was Tyler Biotish for$10 million. And then now it's can we sign guys at a discount and just try to figure it out? signing Cole Strange to a two-year deal for$13 million and then bringing back Trevor Penning and just being like, ah, these guys were supposed to be good. Maybe they'll be good for us. I absolutely love it.

57:13Derrik Klassen: Cole Strange, I can at least get behind where he's following Mike McDaniel from Miami. Mike McDaniel's like, he can do this stuff I like. I promise you, he fits. If the OC is vouching for him, I can get there. Trevor Penning was here last year. It's$4 million. But you should know that that's probably not good enough. I don't know, like rerunning it with something that you saw. Maybe, you know, Rashawn Slater and Joe Alt coming back. Maybe a rising tide lifts all boats. Everybody will probably look better with all pro caliber players anchoring the line and Tyler Vyadish there. But I don't know.

57:48Derrik Klassen: It's not a bet that I would want to make if you have the money to upgrade it. Like if you have, didn't they have the most cap space in the league coming into this? Or it was like top three. It was top three. It was top three.

57:59Robert Mays: I think the Raiders are still number one.

58:00Derrik Klassen: The Titans and the Raiders were in the same conversation. If you have top three cap space, then why does it matter if you give Isaac Sayomalo a little more money? And so that's kind of where I'm at.

58:10Dave Helman: There's a world where, yes, Slater and Alt coming back and obviously Biotis getting in there and being a much better center than they had before. Rising Tide lifts all boats. I'm just, I'm a little bit tired of them operating that way. And I know that it's probably fiscally responsible to do all that and stuff. I just, this was a team that I complained about last year. Did not make like a big move to do something to give your team pop. And this year, to this point, they have not done that yet. And we're kind of running out of options for who that would be. Like, unless they're the Trey Hendrickson team, there's really not a lot of those caliber of guys even left.

58:41Robert Mays: So right now, as a current win stands, they have the third most cap space in the league. And if you look at effective cap space per over the cap, they have the second most. The only team that's ahead of them is the commanders. And the commanders have struck out on every outside of OA. Every receiver the commanders tried to pay has decided not to play for the commanders. So right now, the Chargers still have a ton of money to throw around, and they not surprisingly are not doing that.

59:04Derrik Klassen: Slater got his deal. Yeah. Alt, it's way too early to be talking about Alt anyway. Like, what are you saving your ammunition for, I guess is my point. And I'm not asking the Chargers to spend$300 million. I don't think it, I truly do think it's like an organizational philosophy.

59:21Dave Helman: But is that, does that make it right?

59:23Derrik Klassen: If you're saving, like, again, like, if you've got all these guys coming up for extensions and you're being diligent and judicious about how you space everything out, I understand that. But, like, the quarterback's under contract. Slater's under contract. Like, that, for the most part, is taken care of. Like, Mack, at this point in his career, is not a guy that you're trying to go long-term with. You could potentially say the same thing for Derwin James. Like, I just—

59:50Robert Mays: I think Derwin will be back on some sort of extension. And he is a free agent after this year. And so you need a new Derwin contract. You can afford it when you have as much cap space as the Chargers do. They have$145 million in 2027 cap space. And they're free agents next year. Well, so Tuli Tupelo is going to be up as well. So he's going to need a new contract. Deion Henley is going to need a new contract. So there are some guys that are going to need extensions.

1:00:11Derrik Klassen: You're not saying anything that is changing my mind about how they need to be using their money. That's fair. And like I said, I would question it if the Chargers had dropped$200 million in contracts. I don't think you need to do that. But if Tyler Beattish were on this team with Isaac Saumalu or David Andrews, I don't think that would be irresponsible. And I think I'd be pretty hyped about the Chargers if that were the case. Not to say that they can't still be good. I mean, David Edwards, you mentioned. David Edwards, I'm sorry. But I mean, if Beattish is there and the tackles are healthy, I do think this could be better than people are giving me credit for.

1:00:50Derrik Klassen: but why not just like one more punch to be sure, you know? Just one more expenditure just to be really confident that your quarterback's not going to get crushed.

1:00:58Robert Mays: Here's where I land with this. Joe Hortiz was in Baltimore for 25 years. The Ravens operated a certain way, where the Ravens did not hand out a lot of contracts in free agency because there aren't typically values to be had in free agency. The Ravens were able, I keep doing this, I've done this like a hundred times. the last two days. I don't understand why this is happening. It's the trade. It's just in your mind. For some reason, just the lines have blurred. The Ravens were almost never in a place where they had to do this, right? The Ravens were always, the overall quality of the Ravens roster was always in such a place or usually in such a place where they never really had to patch holes and show a lot of urgency to throw money around in a free agency.

1:01:44Robert Mays: And so the idea that you're trying to take that similar mindset and apply it to the way that the Chargers operate. I completely understand that. But you don't have the underlying level of talent and like homegrown talent to operate that way. Like you have holes to fill in a way that the Ravens never really did have holes to fill. And that's why they didn't operate that way in free agency. And so that to me is where the disconnect happens.

1:02:09Derrik Klassen: And I believe it was either today or yesterday, I saw the Chargers celebrating Justin Herbert's birthday. I was like, ooh, he's 28. He's 28 already. So Justin Herbert's washed? Is that your... He's not washed. Given how much he gets hit, he might be like 32 at this point. He's not washed, but that existential dread should always be in the back of your mind if you're trying to maximize a quarterback's timeline.

1:02:32Robert Mays: A few more we wanted to run through here. D offered to the Bills three years, 16 million. I thought D offered played well last year, but that's still a lot of money for D offered in free agency.

1:02:42Dave Helman: I think this just kind of speaks to like how different they want the secondary to look. obviously shipping off to Ron Johnson, who was a good nickel, but a guy who the reason you wanted him in the building was that he could tackle for you. And then clearly last year, he just kind of lost some of that juice and ability to do that. And so them kind of shifting some of the bodies they're going for in the secondary, I find interesting.

1:03:01Derrik Klassen: We talked about this. I mean, I thought I loved D 'Alford last year, and I love the job that Jeff Ulbricht did in Atlanta, period. But I just thought about this as you brought this up. D 'Alford had an amazing game against the Bills. was that Monday night game? Oh my God. He was freaking awesome. That's right. And I'm sure the Bills did more due diligence than that, but they're like, oh shit, that's the guy who just gave us fits on Monday night football. Let's get him.

1:03:27Robert Mays: Reed Blankenship and Elohi Gilman signed the same contract, which I absolutely love. Three years,$24.8 million, $16.5 million guaranteed was Blankenship's number. I'm pretty sure Gilman was in like half a million for both of those numbers. Not surprising to me to see them. Like those are, can we start him at safety? Yes, is D. Alford, or excuse me, is Reid Blankenship and Elohi Goeman. So I think that is, that to me feels like the market just above$8 million a year for, can we start him at safety?

1:03:56Dave Helman: And I think what's interesting is that I think both of these deals, like even though it's the same number, they're very different to me in the sense that I'm not saying that the Chiefs are going to draft the Caleb Downs, but I don't think this stops you from doing it. Like you're not paying him an obscene amount of money. They play with multiple safeties on the field anyway, as it is. And so I don't think it stops you from doing it. If you can't get him or you decide somebody else is the better pick there, that's fine. We can keep a lovey Gilman at safety. With the Texans, I think it's a little more interesting.

1:04:23Dave Helman: I said this going into last year with the Eagles, where in 2024, when Reed Blankenship was your worst defensive back, that's a really good spot to be in as a secondary. When he became their third best guy and like they had some other questions up front, it was like, OK, he's a quality player. What does this do for you? But in Houston, he's their worst DB, and that is not anything to say of his quality of play. The other guys are just insane. And I think that he can be really good as a guy who, he gives you a little bit as a center fielder if you need to, but really a guy who does well coming down into the box, playing that robber role a little bit, could maybe let Bullock really settle in more as a deep safety if they wanted to be.

1:04:59Dave Helman: This safety signing, I think, is really, really good for Houston.

1:05:02Robert Mays: A few other smaller signings to hit. The Lions signing Isaiah Pacheco makes perfect sense. I mean we talk about biting kneecaps him biting people I mean it's perfect alignment with like the type of players that they want I think similar conversation when it comes to like kind of downhill thumpers Rico Dowdle going to the Steelers not surprising based on you know what their running back room looks like right now his history with Mike McCarthy yep so and then the Steelers conversation we had yesterday I wanted to just revisit it really quickly because Sando did a good job of this like just kind of shitting on us in real time.

1:05:39Robert Mays: How could anybody do this? He was like, you know, you really can't judge any of these signings as they're happening. And I'm like, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. The whole five-hour show we're doing. He's right, by the way. And I think that, again, sitting there last night and kind of mulling over some of this stuff. The idea of what the Steelers are doing, and I think that we can kind of take it in a couple different steps here. When you think about the deals that the Steelers signed yesterday, the Pittman one's kind of like whatever. Michael Pittman, I think he's 29 years old. You'll probably get multiple years out of Michael Pittman.

1:06:11Robert Mays: The Jamel Dean one, to me, it's like, okay, let's just play out like what the next couple of years of Steelers football would look like. If you're going to bring back 43-year-old Aaron Rodgers this year, okay, and he's going to be your quarterback, you're going to be whatever you are this year. The goal is to be as competitive as possible. That's always the Steelers goal. at some point you're going to need to get younger at quarterback so you're this is not the year you're probably going to win the super bowl next year hopefully you can find a quarterback in the 2027 draft and get that clock started but you're still probably not going to be a competitive team trying to win a super bowl in 2027 and so the idea of signing a 29 year old injury prone cornerback as part of a plan where, again, the ultimate goal here should be to win a Super Bowl, that's where I have my questions that start to arise.

1:07:00Robert Mays: The comparison that we made about the Jamel Dean contract was the Carlton Davis deal, right? So Carlton Davis signs with the Patriots last year. And I even had these thoughts about Carlton Davis last year. But at least in that scenario, you have Drake May. Correct. So the idea, you've already started that process. By the time you signed Drake, Carlton Davis in 2025, you already have Drake May in year two. And even if that potential Super Bowl run feels far off, at least you can tell yourself a story about the quarterback taking a huge second year step. There are unknowns in a good way. There is potential to be filled with where you can be as a team.

1:07:38Robert Mays: If you're re-signing 43-year-old Aaron Rodgers, it's a very different conversation. And so at that position specifically, I thought Matt Harmon did a great job of laying this out yesterday, where instead of capping opportunities for young players at positions of need, why not just say, you know what? We're gonna take a guy in the third round. We're gonna see what we have at corner because in reality, it doesn't matter if we win seven or 10 games this year. We should just be building for what this team is in 27 and 28. And I'm just not sure if Jamel Dean is that sort of acquisition. And there's a difference here.

1:08:13Robert Mays: I think there is a difference between having a long view of how you're building your roster and tanking. Those are not the same thing. Those are different things. And so that's where I think some of the subtleties with the Steelers conversation get lost. I think that's what I was trying to say yesterday and didn't necessarily express in the best way in the moment.

1:08:33Derrik Klassen: Just doesn't feel like the Steelers view it that way. The Steelers, until further notice, seem to believe that if you make the tournament, anything can happen. And that's false. There's a lot of evidence.

1:08:46Robert Mays: There is no better evidence of that than the Pittsburgh Steelers. You don't have to convince me. So any thoughts about that? I mean, I just wanted to kind of get that out there after thinking about it all day yesterday.

1:08:58Derrik Klassen: When Will Howard makes his second all-pro team, this will be a great artifact that we can have on. It'll live forever on the internet.

1:09:06Robert Mays: If there's some Steelers content creator out there that wants to clip this when Will Howard is a... When Will Howard finishes second to Matthew Stafford in the MVP voting this year, everybody can throw this out there if they want to.

1:09:16Derrik Klassen: Outside of that happening, I agree with you. I mean, and I think I like Jamel Dean if he's healthy. I like the deal's fine. I like the player. And I think the thought was, well, they signed a good player at a position of need.

1:09:29Robert Mays: Why wouldn't you do that? And it's like, well, there should be more considerations than that. Like, those aren't the only considerations. It's not about taking good player and putting a position where you need good player. Like, there has to be more thought to it than that. It has to be a cohesive plan. Or should be.

1:09:43Dave Helman: It's not a good plan, but if they are going to bring Aaron Rodgers back, it does make sense that they want to try to maximize it. I don't know if it's disastrous. I just I don't know. What I will say is that probably not the best signing if they're trying to, like, maximize 2026, 2027, all that stuff. Selfishly, watching Joey Porter Jr. and Jamel Dean is going to be incredible.

1:10:01Robert Mays: Yeah. Yeah, it's there. Again, it's not a bad signing on a football level. The Steelers are probably a better team for signing Jamel Dean. It always comes back to me where it's like, what is the goal here? The goal is not to be a little bit better incrementally every single year. I just don't think that should be the goal.

1:10:21Derrik Klassen: Do you think the Steelers would be willing to do the Kenny Pickett thing all over again? I think it's a good bet that the second quarterback in this class will be on the board when they pick. I don't think they want to do that. I don't think they do either. I'm trying, but I'm trying to think of a way you could put a young quarterback who gives you some, you know, roadmap for the future on this team. And I don't think they want to draft one at 21. I don't think it really makes sense to draft one at 2021, but they don't seem interested in any of the other avenues to get a different quarterback on this team.

1:10:59Derrik Klassen: And that is perplexing. We just said it.

1:11:01Robert Mays: Will Howard is going to be a great player. We already know what the answer is. Get after it. A few other smaller ones here, Arden Key, two for 20 to go to the Colts, rotational pass rusher. I think that one, I can understand that. J.K. Dobbins and Alex Singleton back to the Broncos. For the Broncos, especially the Singleton thing, it's just like you know what you have, right? So you still have Stranade back there. They cut Dre Greenlaw. So now Stranade and Singleton are going to be back probably as your starters. And you probably give yourself an opportunity if you want to draft somebody. The Stranade contract is a third linebacker contract.

1:11:32Robert Mays: They were in on the Montgomery thing. And so for them to land back on J.K. Dobbins, I can understand that. Quincy Williams goes to the Browns on a very similar deal to the one Alex Anzalone signed. Quincy Williams playing behind that Browns front as a way to kind of reinvigorate his career. I think that's a pretty good landing spot to potentially do that.

1:11:51Dave Helman: I'm pretty into that one. Like, obviously, you have the big bodied edges who are going to help. But like Mason Graham was OK as a rookie. Malik Collins, when he was healthy, was legitimately one of the best penetrating defensive tackles in the league. And so putting a player like Quincy Williams with his range, with his pop next to him. And then you have standing next to him, Carson Swessinger was like about as good as a young linebacker can be. Like this, that was signing Quincy Williams. I said going into this that like, he feels like he could be a good bargain for somebody. That specific team in that fit, I really liked it.

1:12:20Robert Mays: Last one I wanted to hit. We don't spend a ton of time on this. Birexton Jones going back to the Bears. It's a one-year deal, five-year base out, five-year base up to 10 million. I think this is just a, we're going to have him. We're going to have Theo Benedict. it. We're going to kind of hold onto our hats for as long as we need to at left tackle. And honestly, like I'm fine with that. He did not win the job. He won the job out of camp last year, but never really looked right coming off of an injury, but he's going to be healthy now heading into next season. You've already seen him in the building.

1:12:46Robert Mays: There's a little bit more certainty there. So if that is their intermittent, like their intermediate plan at left tackle, just to have him and Benedict kind of fight it out and whatever the best solution is there you can live with for a little a while, I think that's totally fine.

1:12:58Derrik Klassen: It doesn't bother me at all. As we've been talking, it sounds like the Cowboys agreed to terms with P.J. Locke. That does anything for you? That do anything for you?

1:13:08Dave Helman: That doesn't really do that much for me to be honest. That's your guy, Dave. Yeah, when I was like, well, the Broncos signed Talanoa Hufanga so they don't have to play P.J. Locke. So that's kind of, those are my thoughts on the P.J. Locke sign.

1:13:21Robert Mays: Christian Parker was in Denver. Yeah, P.J. Oh, that's good. He knows him. I think, and so there is some familiarity there, but But anything, no disrespect to P.J. Locke, anything that moves the needle a little bit more than P.J. Locke that I missed?

1:13:33Derrik Klassen: Nashawn Wright. Nashawn Wright is going to the New York Jets on a one-year, five-and-a-half-million-dollar deal. This is so funny.

1:13:40Dave Helman: They couldn't get an interception or a turnover, so go get the guy who got a million somehow. We're going to tap into whatever wizardry he was using. Go get that guy.

1:13:51Derrik Klassen: I love that. I love that. That price doesn't bother me. Oh, whatever.

1:13:56Robert Mays: Yeah, five million bucks. If he was going to get 10, that's a different thing. And honestly, I applaud the NFL for, you know, I don't want to take money out of Nashon Wright's pocket. It is a sign of growth around the league that we can look at the season that Nashon Wright had and understand what was real and what was not about that season. So the Jets just saying we're going to pay five million dollars for an interception this year, I think is a completely reasonable approach to Nashon Wright's market. But the fact that we just had PJ Locke and Nishan Wright as the two things that we missed over the course of that 70 minutes speaks to what today has felt like.

1:14:31Derrik Klassen: Well, to be fair, all hell broke loose is an exaggeration. But from 1 to 145, it felt like there was a fair amount of shit going on. But yeah, it's definitely, it's been slower today. Like this morning, I was putting my phone in and out of airplane mode. Like, am I missing stuff? Like, where's all the news?

1:14:52Robert Mays: Hopefully we've got some stuff to talk about tomorrow. If not, we'll probably do what we did last year. When things started to slow down, we kind of shifted to more big picture discussions, just looking at some of the overall hauls that teams had. We'll likely start doing that over the next couple days, but we're going to have live shows coming your guys' way on Wednesday and Thursday, same time, 3 p.m. Eastern each of those days, 2 p.m. Central. We will be here either recapping the signings or just zooming out and taking a look at what free agency has felt like up to this point. For now, that's all we got.

1:15:26Robert Mays: Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

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