Hall of Very Good, Class of 2026

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2:29Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mayes. We didn't do this for like three years, and I really do regret it because it is one of my favorite shows that we do over the course of the summer. And it was very good to get back to it. It is the Hall of Very Good on the Athletic Football Show. We've done this three times over the lifespan of the show, but we have not done it since 2023. With Derek and Dave, we're doing four shows a week during the summer. It's the perfect time to bring back the Hall of Very Good. We get into the rules a little bit in the intro. On a very simple level, this is a way to celebrate players who are never going to be real candidates for the Hall of Fame.

3:07Robert Mays: And really the only hard and fast rule is if you have been a finalist or semi-finalist for the Hall of Fame, you are not eligible for the Hall of Very Good. Other than that, it's just guys you liked watching, guys that you enjoyed, guys that made a handful of Pro Bowls and maybe it would get lost to history if we weren't doing stuff like this. Let's make sure to breathe life back into the very enjoyable careers of players like that. So that's what we did today. And then we got a dozen guys that are like full-fledged members of this class, which some real good pulls here. Some ones from Derek specifically that I was kind of jealous of.

3:39Robert Mays: And then, you know, Dave just really digging back into the late 90s, early 2000s archives here in a way that I very much appreciated. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you guys, Will, as well. Let's induct some guys into the Hall of Very Good right now.

4:05Robert Mays: One of my favorite things we get to do on this show, sometimes we do it in snippets. Sometimes we do it for an entire show, an entire episode like we're doing today. We are remembering some guys today on the athletic football show. We've done this in the past. This is our fourth one, Beller, since 2021.

4:26Robert Mays: Two-year hiatus for a few different reasons. We were doing fewer shows in the summer last year, over the last two years. No reason to get into that. But this is the year we decided that we're bringing back the Hall of Very Good. You guys, neither of you, has gotten a chance to do this yet. So this is the first time for both of you to remember some guys in full force. Dave, how you feeling? This feels very much right up your alley.

4:47Derrik Klassen: All the best conversations are just your buddy saying the name of a football player, and then you say hell of a player. The cure to the male loneliness epidemic. I stand by this. Hell of a football player. And so to do it for a whole podcast episode? Absolutely.

5:02Dave Helman: I'm also amped for this. I was actually just talking with Beller before the show. Like when I joined in 2024, my first day was August 1st. So it's too late in the offseason to really do a show like this. And so to be able to do it now on, you know, we're recording June 22nd, perfect time to do a show like this.

5:19Robert Mays: There are no hard and fast rules for who is eligible and who is not for the Hall of Very Good. This is a very vibes based exercise. The only thing that I feel like we actually laid down when it came to the rules before we started is that you cannot be a Hall of Fame finalist or you cannot have been a Hall of Fame finalist at any point since your career ended. And I think that extends to semi-finalists.

5:41Derrik Klassen: We did. We said semi. Yeah, because there were there are a few guys who are candidates to be in the Hall of Fame right now who might not ever get in, who I would love to mention. But the very fact that you've been part of that process and you've gone through the voting and waited, I think that means you're too good for a conversation like this. Like if you're agonizing over whether or not you'll get in, I still think that's like a step beyond what we're talking about.

6:07Robert Mays: I agree. If you've reached that point, when it comes to the reconsideration of your career, I think you're probably too good for this. I kind of had like a rule of thumb. If you've been to more than let's say three Pro Bowls, you're probably too good for me in an exercise like this. And then like the Hall of Fame, my cutoff is you have to have been retired for at least five years and so my there was one guy i actually have that he retired at the end of the 2020 season that was his last season so we're now five full off seasons removed from that so similar to the actual hall of fame we there is a waiting period that you have to go through before you can just get thrown in here like deshaun jackson is going to be a great entry into this conversation at some point you can't do right now so and i it's funny because there when we've done this in the past I felt like Bellarite kind of trended toward really nostalgic picks because we had never done it before so it was a chance to go back into your childhood and guys that you remembered from 10 15 years ago this time I felt like I started with guys that were a little bit more recent guys I actually covered and now are just eligible so you can take this in a bunch of different directions and that's why it's fun that's

7:14Derrik Klassen: pretty much the point I've got I have one guy who is just now even eligible for this but I did I I wound up skewing a little bit more nostalgic a cause it's fun to revisit like heroes. It's your first time.

7:27Robert Mays: That's the only way you can do it.

7:28Derrik Klassen: Well, also like we went back and looked, we didn't want there to be overlap from previous shows and y 'all are so good at your jobs. You took out a lot of the best names possible from this era. Yeah. Y 'all are great.

7:40Robert Mays: So I felt like I had to dig a little deeper. I can't wait for Derek to go be like, man, do you remember watching AJ green when you were like in elementary school? I'm, I'm really excited. Listen, and somebody that's just completely inappropriate when it comes to the timeline a majority of my

7:55Dave Helman: picks are like retired like 2019 because i'm i'm not that old like i don't i'm not gonna say somebody when i was like 11 years old i wasn't seriously watching football when i was 11 four how many did you guys pick oh dude i have like 10 but i'm not planning on getting to all of them i have four how many do you have derek i have like six that i'm seriously ready to talk about and then a number of like in case there was overlap type of guys but according to beller we

8:20Robert Mays: have none so that's great all right so i think we'll probably get through at least a dozen here dave i'm gonna let you kick this off i'm very curious like where your list started and so i want you to be the first one to start to to get us going here who is your first candidate for the 2026 class of the hall very good on the athletic football show i think this is a great place to

8:40Derrik Klassen: start because he's just now eligible for these sorts of conversations he i believe retired yeah his last nfl season was in 2021 perennially underrated he's he's not he doesn't have a statistical case to really factor into the hall of fame he just doesn't have the postseason awards that would be ryan kerrigan really good oh love ryan really it's a really good one you could go

9:06Robert Mays: about brian rakpo is also a player that like you could throw out for something like this the fact that there were two of them playing the same position on the same team. So it's great. Derek Morgan with Brian Arakpo. We could do like six degrees of separation for all of very good players at certain positions.

9:20Derrik Klassen: I'm happy you mentioned Arakpo. And I mean, Kerrigan was just a phenomenal player, four-time pro bowler. He was never all pro, not even second team at any point in his career. 95 and a half sacks, which is a really impressive number. I mean, that's like bordering on too good for this exercise.

9:34Robert Mays: 95 and a half sacks right up against the line.

9:37Derrik Klassen: where not to put you on the spot where would you think that would rank all time all time because i i agree with you i saw i saw 95 and a half and i was like man that's really good like is he too good for this conversation somewhere in the top 30 it's 78th really yeah man a lot of guys we're getting more than 100 sacks than i thought we're getting crowded at the like after

9:59Robert Mays: you know the amount of guys we've had that 78th at 95 sacks they're way more than 100 sack guys than I thought they were.

10:07Derrik Klassen: I thought it would be a hell of a lot better than it is. And this is pro football reference, by the way. So, like, these are guys they've gone back and assigned sacks to with their research and stuff like that. So that's what pro football reference ranks him at. 95 and a half sacks. It's really, really good. It's not quite as, like, rare air as I thought it would be when I started this exercise.

10:28Robert Mays: On a practical level, that's nine sacks per season for 10 years. It's an incredible career.

10:33Derrik Klassen: the other thing i love about ryan kerrigan is he was the you could argue he was the most consistently good thing about the end of the daniel snyder era of washington like kirk was there you get one like supernova season of robert griffin the third uh you had some other guys like london fletcher had a really nice resurgence in washington jonathan allen was there and brian a rock poe, but like consistently across, you know, he got there in 2011 and was in Washington until 2020 across almost a decade. He was like the only consistent thing going, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, where just every year you knew he was going to be a pain in the ass, even if nothing else in Washington was going the right way.

11:19Robert Mays: I agree with everything you said. I just looked up something though, that is just emotionally devastating. This is absolutely our first entrant into the Hall of Very Good that's younger than me. Oh, wow. Okay. Not a fan of that whatsoever. Ryan Kerrigan, August 16th, 1988. So he's like a full year younger than me. That's devastating.

11:42Derrik Klassen: He's only a few months older than me. Yeah, that does. I don't like that, but I did love watching him play. And I got to watch him a lot covering the Cowboys too, twice a year. Just a phenomenal player, a high motor player. I was thinking about it, rewatching him and just looking back through his resume. And I was like, this feels like the best case scenario for like a high motor, high effort, not like a twitchy, freaky Von Miller sort of athlete, like his career, in my opinion.

12:12Dave Helman: I love that you said that he's like what I wanted George Karloftis to be coming out of college. And like Karloftis has like kind of gotten close to that. But Kerrigan really is like the pinnacle of what that's supposed to be. It's funny that he's didn't quite get to 100 sacks because I remember after like his eighth season or whatever, I was like, Ryan Kerrigan is going to be the quietest 100 sack player in NFL history.

12:32Robert Mays: If you're the 16th overall pick in the draft, this is like, we should celebrate careers like this more, where you were the 16th overall pick, you went to four Pro Bowls, you had 95 sacks, you were a good player for 10 years in the NFL. And this is the other part. And And this, again, is not explicitly in the rules, but I think that all the players we're going to talk about here fit the billing. And it's often one of the first places my mind goes when it comes to the Hall of Very Good. Are you beloved among the fans of the among the fan base of the team that you played for? Like if you went to a Washington fan, you're just like Ryan Kerrigan.

13:07Robert Mays: They'd be like, yeah, like that to me feels like a reaction that is necessary, especially if you spent the vast majority of your career with one team.

13:14Derrik Klassen: And I think it matters to again, the end of the Daniel Snyder era in Washington was awful. And so like to have him showing up year in, year out. Yeah, absolutely. And for the record, I should have said this at the top. So 78 unofficially because PFR charts all of that shit. The official record, he's still 53. So he's outside the top 50 in career sacks. Very, very good. But when you combine that with no all pros and anything of that nature, I just yeah, Like I can't imagine him getting to the Hall of Fame, but an incredibly good player.

13:47Robert Mays: Perfect choice. It's exactly the type of the guy that we're looking for here. Derek, who's your first one? Your first nomination for the 2026 Hall of Very Good is who?

13:55Dave Helman: So because of the amount of Pro Bowls, I'm almost worried he's too good. But this player will not sniff the Hall of Fame because of career sack number. But this is another one where it's like he played for this team. His entire career was part of like an incredible duo the same way that Ryan Kerrigan was. Tom Bahali for the Kansas City Chiefs was a dog that guy was so so good I because you had Justin Houston right who was this like incredibly explosive could bend like had incredible technique and Tom Bahali looked at the other tackle and said I'm gonna kill you and push you right into the quarterback he was just I loved watching him play they were like the perfect duo he he never made first team all pro but he did make second team a couple of times never actually got to 100 career sacks I think he was at 89 and a half if I remember correctly and the cool thing about this to me what you just said Robert of like if you go to a Kansas City fan and they ask if you just say Tom Bahali he played his entire career there he played 12 NFL seasons every single one was in Kansas City and like that's another thing I think we should celebrate more like there's nothing there's obviously nothing wrong with guys jumping teams and like going to get other contracts or maybe the team doesn't want you whatever i think it's really cool when a guy can play longer than a decade on one team and kind of go off on his own terms that's

15:10Robert Mays: just incredibly cool we'd probably don't talk about that's a name that doesn't come up enough this year would have been really appropriate for like slightly undersized pass rushers that were just pure ass kickers like that's because somebody was what like 6 '2 and change right he was he was thick but he was short shorter side yes he was like a short like sawed off like thick guy and his name should probably come up more in drafts like this where there were 10 of those guys and we were trying to find the right comps for them and it was melvin ingram every single time yeah

15:41Dave Helman: we could have moved up this is like tom bahali is like the super melvin ingram basically i also have

15:47Derrik Klassen: i have such a soft spot for pre-mahomes chiefs because that was a very consistently successful franchise at least like in the 2000s you know and i know y 'all did priest homes on a previous show like i think brian waters was also brian waters i will say some of the names we threw out on

16:05Robert Mays: earlier shows as i've recalibrated the formula are probably too good i mean you can make an argument that like brian waters is probably too good y 'all i looking back through the list i saw

16:13Derrik Klassen: a few names where i was like this guy's far too good i mean he's one of my favorite players ever

16:18Robert Mays: i think cam chancellor is too good for a list like no absolutely not you don't think so absolutely not no that's that's bullshit no there are some guys where yes too good cam chancellor absolutely not cam chancellor is the perfect choice maybe that for something like that just speaks to how

16:33Dave Helman: much i love cam chancellor to me because almost all of my like my like guiding light was like i know this player was incredible but he just won't sniff the hall of fame like i don't cam probably will not be a hall of famer but like when i think of cam chancellor i'm like that dude was amazing

16:47Derrik Klassen: you're not wrong but i'm not willing to let go of the possibility that cam could make the hall of Fame because I'd vote for him.

16:52Robert Mays: He's been out of the league since 2017 and I'm looking at the finalist ballots now. He has he's never been a finalist or even like a semi-finalist and so I feel okay about that. In my heart is Cam Chancellor Hall of Famer 100 percent but for the purposes of this exercise I think that he is fair game. Reluctantly fine. One of the names we threw out like on one of the early shows that now I'm like absolutely not it's like Anquan Bolden is more of a can court candidate than he is a whole very good candidate there was some i look back at that i

17:23Derrik Klassen: listen back to those episodes and you guys did like go back and forth and have a is he too good discussion but we're using this remembering some guy space to relitigate previous remembering some

17:33Robert Mays: guy spaces yeah that's fine that's fine you listen you workshop the concept over time you refine it i mean this is we're all just trying to get better every single day that's all that matters here All right. I couldn't decide whether I wanted to do this guy first or last. I've done a bear from the mid-2000s, I think, on all of the shows that we've done. And that partially is because of my own lived experience. But I also think there are certain rosters from certain time periods that just have like eight of these guys. Like the Packers, the 2010s Packers, there are so many guys that you could throw out there.

18:08Robert Mays: Like Cullen Jenkins is somebody that you could use for exercise like this. Like Nick Collins, we talked about Al Harris is somebody that would be good for something like this. The Seahawks early 2010 Seahawks, like I could Brandon Meebane is somebody that I could throw out for something like this. There are just certain rosters that were built and filled with these types of players. The 2005 to eight bears were exactly that type of roster. So I'm going with Matt Forte. Matt Forte is my bearer of choice for this year's exercise.

18:42Derrik Klassen: Matthew, Matt Forte is, he belongs on a list like this. He's perfect for it. And I was prepping for this show and I came to his name and I was like, no, like Robert will do Forte or it'll come up somehow, some way. Like I don't need to bring Forte to the conversation. So I'm happy to be proven right.

19:00Robert Mays: I think it was Peanut Tillman and Lance Briggs were the last two. And so again, exactly the same teams, exactly the same tier of player. a couple Matt Forte things, two Pro Bowls. That was it. Only two Pro Bowls for Matt Forte in his entire career. So he's definitely not too good for this exercise. Between 2008 and 2014, two players had more rushing yards total than Matt Forte over that seven-year span. Those names, Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson. Pretty good. That's it. That's incredible. Those are the only two guys who had more rushing yards than Matt Forte over that stretch. And I think the part of Matt Forte that, you know, obviously people that watched him talk about it a lot, And if you look at the numbers, they're self-evident as you look back at his career.

19:41Robert Mays: He had six seasons with at least 50 catches, which for a running back of that era is incredibly impressive. And what really stands out is that a lot of the guys that we think are really good pass catchers, really productive pass catchers, they're undersized backs. They're guys who have a little bit of wiggle to them. Matt Forte is huge. Matt Forte is like a legit 6 '2 and change 220. 20. And so you have this guy that was this really tall back, really upright runner is running fades in the red zone. Like he, the ways that they used him as a receiver and all the things they asked him to do for a back that big, the only guy from that era where he was as productive and as involved in the passing game as a big back that I can remember was probably Steven Jackson.

20:26Robert Mays: That was the only other guy that had that much to him and was a really heavily involved part of the passing game. So the idea that Matt Forte was like this passing game weapon where they're running them on wheel routes and choice routes and all of this stuff at 6 '2", 220. There just were not a lot of guys who were bringing what Matt Forte was to the table.

20:45Derrik Klassen: We had a chance to hang out with him at the Beast release party here in Chicago a couple months ago. And it was such a fun experience to live it out in real time where Matt Forte's, and obviously like you're in a football space there where everybody there is going to know who you are. But for the three hours we were there with Matt Forte, it was just a sequence of people being like, remember this? That was awesome. And he's like, yep, yeah, it really was, man. And I completely agree.

21:15Robert Mays: That's what we're doing now. So we're going to continue to do that. All right, Dave, you're up again. Who's your next guy here for the 2026 Hall?

21:22Derrik Klassen: Very good. So I drifted toward Matt Forte and I decided not to do it because I figured there'd be a good chance somebody else would bring him up. so I went further back in time for a much smaller player but a very similar mental image at least like again like nowhere near as big as Matt Forte but a similar package when it comes to a running back and what I love about him he was designed in a lab for me to hate him and I love him I absolutely loved him as a player Warwick Dunn from a man I'm surprised Work done has not been on any of the other ones.

21:57Robert Mays: Yeah. Yeah. This is great. We've rectified past mistakes here by bringing up work done.

22:03Derrik Klassen: So he's from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and he opted to go to Florida State, which right there, like, come on, come on. What are we doing? Please go to LSU. In fairness to work done, what years were those? No, LSU was garbage in the 90s.

22:16Robert Mays: There was nothing cooler than Florida State football in 1994. Nothing cooler than that.

22:21Derrik Klassen: Completely justified in this decision, but by a biased South Louisianian, it upset me.

22:26Robert Mays: In the 90s, Derek, Florida State was a very cool football brand. Just like I always wanted to let you know.

22:31Dave Helman: When I was a kid, the Florida Gators were pretty good. Yeah, so actually, that's all I needed, though.

22:36Derrik Klassen: All three Florida schools were the pinnacle of cool in the 90s for whatever that's worth. Mike Norvell bringing it back. So he plays his whole pro career for the Falcons and the Bucs first and then the Falcons. So again, this is a guy who spurned me my whole football watching youth, and I could not help but love him anyway. He's such a fun player. 5 '9", 180, and was drafted in the late 90s. Still managed to go 12th overall. And despite all of those doubts about his size, just shy of 11 ,000 career rushing yards. 10, 9, 6, 7. 24th all-time in career rushing yards. much like Matt Forte, prolific receiver, averaged 48 receptions per year during the course of his career.

23:20Derrik Klassen: So shifty. He's 5 '9", 180, so his center of gravity was just unreal. Like, I mean, he just tap danced through the line and was impossible to bring down. Surprisingly physical for a guy his size. And then on top, I think it's something you have to shout out. I remember it got brought up during every Bucks or Falcons game during his career, but he also did so much.

23:44Robert Mays: charity work some of the most like notoriously cool shit than any NFL player has ever done like the amount of people that I mean he bought houses for people yeah it was like a housing-based

23:53Derrik Klassen: he built single parent uh built helped build homes for single parent families because he lost his mom who was a police officer and decided to give back to people in similar situations so just did a shitload on that front in addition to just being an amazing football player and he he played for, you know, I grew up a Saints fan and he was always a pain in my team's ass and I couldn't help but love him anyway. He's so good.

24:19Robert Mays: Obviously the Bucs now are like, you know, the Bucs, we have a long history with the Bucs. Tom Brady won a Super Bowl with the Bucs. Like it's our relationship to them as a franchise has changed many times over the 30 years that I've been paying attention to the NFL. But in the mid 90s, the Bucs were not an interesting or exciting team. Like that, you can speak to this. Like they just weren't. And so in 1997 is the year where work done gets drafted. And that is the year where they go from the creamsicle jerseys to the pewter and the red jerseys. Now we are yearning for nostalgia. So we want the creamsicle ones back.

24:53Robert Mays: But when they changed to those pewter and red jerseys in 1997, and then you had work done, Warren Zappa just gotten there. The defense comes on with like that entire group of Derek Brooks and John Lynch. They were an incredibly cool team in 1997. Like the uniform change plus all of the just quality players that had arrived there. There was a really swift brand change for those Buccaneers teams. And Warwick Dunn was a big part of that.

25:18Derrik Klassen: They were like, for like neutral and young observers, a hot commodity.

25:23Robert Mays: Oh, I've mentioned this many times. I cheated on the Bears with the mid to late 90s Bucs for several years.

25:29Derrik Klassen: I think anybody who came of football watching age in the late 90s, early 2000s, like had a moment with Tampa Bay.

25:36Robert Mays: they were in the same division so I watched them live because I would always want to go to the Bucs games and so I like saw those teams at Soldier Field pretty much every single year when I got to pick like the three games I got to go to well and so I I'm too young for his Tampa

25:48Dave Helman: Bay Bucs days but when he was with the Falcons was like the early Michael Vick era and I grew up in NFC South Country like I grew up near Tampa Bay and I went to a number of Bucs games a couple of them against this Falcons team and so he actually was a player that when I was young I was like for a guy obviously he wasn't very big but he just made plays and made people miss when When you're nine years old watching a running back make people miss like that, it's like the coolest thing in the world.

26:10Derrik Klassen: Which he was good in Tampa Bay, but the peak of his career was undoubtedly when he was with the Falcons, in my opinion.

26:16Robert Mays: I mean, that was with Alex Gibbs years, right? I mean, just Alex Gibbs, Michael Vick. And then the other cool thing about work done is he had like the thunder components to the lightning in each of his two stops. He had Michael Alstott in Tampa, and then he had TJ Duckett when they went to Atlanta. TJ Duckett. that like very cool counterpoint in both of his nfl career like both of his nfl stops i can't remember what year it was alec yeah 2004 is when alex gibbs got to atlanta and so that was work done was very much in like the teeth of his atlanta falcons career when that happened all right we're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back with derrick's next nominee all right we've made it summer is here warm weather is back my favorite summer days are the ones that are nice and hot during the daytime.

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30:11Dave Helman: all right Derek who's your next one here so this I think of all the players I have on here is the one who is nearest and dearest to my heart he's recently retired in the sense of I think he would have had two rounds now where he could have been voted for hall of fame has not gotten in there all that stuff has not even been a finalist as far as I'm aware Thomas Davis playing alongside Luke Keekly unbelievable those two were nominal nominee that's exactly what we're shooting for

30:37Robert Mays: Carolina Panthers, Lance Briggs.

30:40Dave Helman: Basically, yes. Yes. That's the perfect way to put it. And I want to start by laying the foundation of his story. So he came into the league, played like five or six years, and then he had a three-year run from 09 to 11, which were his ages 26, 27, 28 seasons. So that's your theoretical athletic prime. Tore the same ACL three times in a row. That is a death sentence for any athlete ever playing any sport. Thomas Davis then came back and only got better. Like he actually reached his peak after that. And it was starting in 2012. Obviously, Luke Keekly comes there and they really the defense comes alive.

31:19Dave Helman: And then a few years after that, Davis has this stretch from, I think, starting in 2015, three straight Pro Bowls, including a first team all pro. Like what those two did together. Obviously, some of their run defense was great. Like Thomas Davis was a really good run through player. Like if he saw daylight, he was hitting somebody in the backfield. but him and Keeley together were I think the best coverage linebacker duo I've ever seen obviously what the Seahawks had with Bobby Wagner and KJ Wright was pretty good those two were just the length the speed the smarts it was a pretty it's why that defense was so good for that

31:52Robert Mays: half decade I'm 100 % with you on this he was he's a perfect choice for an exercise like this he gave you exactly what you're laying out just the range with those two guys combined was crazy absolutely crazy and then you mentioned the acls and that huge part of his story the fact that he was able to overcome that during that three-year stretch the injury thing that to me was almost more memorable is what happened with his arm he broke his arm in the nfc championship game in 2015 when the panthers were 15 and 1 and two weeks later played in the super bowl and if you look at it their pictures in the moment when it happened, his entire arm was like sliced open and they put like a dozen screws and plates in his arm and just sewed him back up.

32:40Robert Mays: And so when you, he took off the sleeve after the game, it looks like Frankenstein. Like his entire arm is just stitched up from top to bottom because he broke it two weeks earlier and he played in the game.

32:52Derrik Klassen: I had forgotten about that. What I do remember about 2015 though, is obviously Carolina goes 15 and one cam newton wins mvp and that was when he got first team all pro i think him and keekly got it together which is nuts but at that point i mean he'd been in the league for almost a decade already and had had at least yeah he'd already had four 100 tackle seasons at that point and was like a phenomenally good player injuries had gotten in the way and i just remember like when thomas davis got all pro that year like ball it was like a ball knower celebration like finally this guy gets some recognition.

33:29Robert Mays: I remember that vividly, and he's a perfect player for something like this. Derek, it'd be fun to go back through history and do the, we did this at Grantland, where you would have like the belt for a specific thing. So like, you're the best receiver in the league. You have the belt for that moment, and then you pass it on to whoever gets it next. 2015 is the Panthers, that both those guys were first team All-Pro. We're transitioning out of like the Willis Bowman era of having the two best linebackers going back and figuring out like who the best linebacker duo in the league was and who had the belt in any specific year it's like a highlander situation like there could only be one and so the fact that the niners transitioned perfectly into the panthers for that year and then you probably i don't know the year after that maybe you it drifts away to like uh

34:17Dave Helman: those guys were good there was a stretch where i think you can make the case that donta hightower and Jamie Collins were pretty insane there for a minute. Like those two were one. I think that's a good one. Obviously the Niners guys, like a couple of years ago when those guys were at their peak, like Fred Warner and Greenlaw, that's probably a more recent version, but there is always one. I would have to go back. I have always, I kind of already have that ready in my head. So we could almost do that on, you know, off the cusp if we needed to.

34:42Robert Mays: Yeah. Let's 2027 off-season project right there

34:45Dave Helman: as we build out our video library. I'm ready.

34:48Robert Mays: Speaking of the mid 2000 Seahawks, My next guy here, I want to go through just my relationship with this person as someone who was watching football at this time. So in 2012, that was the first year that I watched the league and studied the league and covered the league full time. Like I was working at Grantland in 2011, but 2012 was my first full year covering the NFL. And I remember watching games at Simmons's house that fall. And there's five, six games on at a time. And every time I was watching the Tampa Bay Buccaneers game. So he was wearing 71 at the time in 2012. And every time I would watch the Bucs, I was like, who is that?

35:24Robert Mays: And it was Michael Bennett. And he was just, every time I was watching a Bucs game, he was just flying off the screen. And if you look back that season, he finished with 71 pressures that year. He was one of the best run-defending defensive ends in the entire NFL. He was like this perfect hybrid player where on base downs, you could just stick him outside. He would 270, 275. You could slide him inside in any passing situation. He was phenomenal at rushing over guards. And so I'm watching him the entire year. I did a huge, like, write-up of him in the 2013 offseason when we're going back and looking at the 2012 season.

36:00Robert Mays: I was like, this guy is going to get paid. Like, he's a free agent. Like, he is somebody that deserves a ton of money. And then the Seahawks signed him to a one-year$4 million contract in 2013. And I was like, this is highway robbery. Like, I cannot believe they were allowed to do this. And they signed Cliff Averill in the same offseason and lo and behold the 2013 Seahawks are one of the most dominant defenses we've ever seen they waltzed their way to a Super Bowl and it was in part because they're getting guys like Michael Bennett who are like legitimate Pro Bowl talents for pennies on the dollar for reasons that I still

36:33Derrik Klassen: don't fully understand 2013 was my first year covering the NFL and I was just a Cowboys beat writer so I mean you do your best over time to follow everything because it makes you better at your job. But at that point, I was swimming, just trying to keep up with what was going on with one team. And I remember, I remember Bennett signing in Seattle and not knowing any better and like not thinking that was remarkable at all. Just like, okay, like this guy's changing teams to go be part of whatever's going on up there. And then yeah, him and Cliff Averill both just I mean, two of the most, I think listeners of a show like this, you might not consider them unsung but in the population at large when you just go down the list of people responsible for those seahawks teams i think you would say a lot of names before you got to bennett and averil but that doesn't make them any less instrumental instrumental in what happened there they were

37:32Robert Mays: dominant in that super bowl too i mean all most of those guys are dominant but the pass rush in that super bowl was just overwhelming and the averil and bennett duo is a huge went a huge way in making the feel like that and it was funny you mentioned the cowboys if you were covering the Cowboys in 2012, you would not have been surprised about Michael Bennett because he had two sacks in that game against Dallas in 2012. I remember that game. There was one, I mean, I think it was like maybe the, the header photo on the thing I wrote about him in 2012 is him just decapitating Tony Romo. There were plenty of games in that 2012 season where he looked like the best player on the field.

38:07Robert Mays: And the fact that the Seahawks were able to get him for next to nothing, and he could be like one of the pivotal players and what that legion of boom front felt like it was the rich

38:15Dave Helman: getting richer in a big way and he's like a perfect guy to explain how that defense was so special obviously the players in the back seven were amazing right like richard sherman was incredible earl thomas bobby wagner those guys but what they were able to do could only be done because the front was so so good and the fact that they were able to piece that together with i mean four million bucks at the time I guess it's like you know a lot less than it would be or a lot more than it would be now but still four million bucks is nothing for a guy who was playing at his level

38:44Derrik Klassen: it has nothing to do with his play on the field which was very good but I just have a random memory that's burned into my brain is after the miracle comeback to beat the Packers in that NFC title game he was just riding a bike around on the field at what was then CenturyLink just just i don't really i never found out why but i just remember watching him riding a bike around on the field after that game and thinking this guy kicks ass so even if like to your point derek the cap was a lot smaller than it is right now that season

39:20Robert Mays: that 4.8 million it was 4.8 million was 25th among all edge players in his cap hit for that year 25th

39:27Dave Helman: in the entire league and he was giving you top 10 play at minimum 100 especially when you think

39:32Robert Mays: about it as a two-way player like his pass rush production was really good and he was consistently one of the best run defending edges in the entire nfl could play inside for you all the ways he was impacting the game the idea that he was the 25th highest paid player at that position that season

39:49Dave Helman: as a free agent is ridiculous also final note on him bizarre aesthetic and it's kind of like adds

39:56Robert Mays: to the mystique of why he was such a great player even wearing like 72 like the fact that he was a more 72 for his entire seahawks time is adds to that i think a little bit which goes back to my point i will make this point as many times as i have to the player makes the number if you kick

40:14Derrik Klassen: ass 72 will look cool i've got some i have some guys on my list here we can try to get to who wore outside the box numbers and guess what if you rock your number is going to look cool and you're going to be like oh man that's that's kind of sick that he wears 72 i don't disagree with that i just

40:31Robert Mays: think that you're you have to overcome it you're setting up a barrier to your own success in a way that i just feels like you're stepping on a rake you don't need to just be a good player that's all steven jackson 39 another good example how good would he have been if he was wearing 23 steven jackson's a little bit different though because he weighed like 240 like the idea of like that back that big where in 39 i think that almost adds to it alvin camara in 41 maybe we're talking about him in this show in a couple years here we go stephen davis what a transition what a transition he is the next guy on my list so stephen davis had to overcome 48 yeah you can admit this but

41:07Derrik Klassen: he did and it looked awesome stephen david derrick if you're if you're not i'm unfamiliar if i'm going to be perfectly honest with you stephen davis was a running back for first Washington. That's incredible. And then he had a resurgence for the Carolina Panthers in the early 2000s. I think he got drafted in like 98, 96, 96, 96, end of the 90s, early 2000s, six foot 230, just a big old guy. And he wore number 48. And that is not a great number for a star running back unless you have three different 1400 yard seasons and score 65 NFL touchdowns. And then, you know what? It looks pretty badass.

41:48Robert Mays: 65 touchdowns. That the idea that Stephen Jackson had two seasons with a dozen rushing touchdowns and they were six years apart is actually pretty impressive.

41:58Derrik Klassen: Wait, Stephen Jackson or Stephen Davis?

42:00Robert Mays: Stephen Davis. Excuse me. He had two seasons with at least 12 rushing touchdowns. They were six years apart. One was in a year where he only had 180 carries and he had 12 touchdowns. Good for him.

42:08Derrik Klassen: So I Stephen Jackson is a guy that makes total sense if you want to bring him up on a list like this. I think he's a little too good. And even if the like, even if Steven Jackson doesn't make the Hall of Fame, his fantasy status like Steven Jackson was in national commercials.

42:23Robert Mays: The Nike commercial is what potentially puts it over the top.

42:26Derrik Klassen: Unfortunately, Steven Jackson is a little too famous. Steven Davis, I feel like has fallen by the wayside three time pro bowler. He was second team all pro one time. But and but like the numbers are so, so good. And he was he dealt with injuries toward the end of his career. But like you said, the fact that he was able to do it over a long enough stretch of time, he finished 55th all time in career rushing yards and the 65 touchdowns is top 50. So certainly not even close to being a candidate for something like the Hall of Fame, but such a good player. And then in 03, he goes to Carolina in 2003, and that was the year they lost that Super Bowl to Tom Brady.

43:06Derrik Klassen: And he was just he was amazing. 1 ,400 yards, eight touchdowns. What I thought was most interesting when I went back to look this up, I thought him and Deshaun Foster were like in my head. I was like, oh, those guys were a nightmare tandem that terrorized the NFL in 2003. Deshaun Foster had 400 yards in the regular season.

43:26Robert Mays: He was big in the playoffs.

43:27Derrik Klassen: In those playoffs, he was amazing. He had 200 yards and two touchdowns in the playoffs, including one in the Super Bowl. And that's on top of what Steven Davis was able to do. Yeah, I think it kicks ass that he wore 48.

43:38Robert Mays: He's just a big freight train. 79 yards a game during that playoff run. 64 carries for 315 yards over those four playoff games for Carolina 2003. By the way, tying it all back around, Stephen Davis' final year played with Stephen Jackson in 2006 with the St. Louis Rams. That's pretty good. Played on the same team. Do you remember Stephen Jackson, though, Derek? I remember Stephen Jackson. That dude was a straight. Stephen Jackson's too good.

44:03Derrik Klassen: Stephen Jackson's too good because Derek remembers him, but Stephen Davis has been lost to history.

44:07Robert Mays: Do you remember the Nike commercial with Steven Jackson? Not off the top of my head, no. It's hard to describe to you how important Nike commercials were to the stature of players that were in them during that time. The best Nike commercial of all time, still to this day, is the LaDainian Tomlinson Troy Palomalo one from 2006. Oh, wait. Which I believe was directed by David Fincher. I think so.

44:38Derrik Klassen: Where they're like in the various game situations. Yeah, when they're growing up.

44:43Robert Mays: When they're like, they show them as like little kids.

44:45Derrik Klassen: Oh, I'm thinking of, wait, which one am I thinking of? This is bad. Hang on, let me.

44:51Robert Mays: Yeah, David Fincher directed. I'm pretty sure David Fincher directed that. Like, they'll leave nothing.

44:58Derrik Klassen: I'm thinking of the Steven Jackson, Sean Merriman commercial. Yes, yes, yes.

45:03Robert Mays: If you have not seen it, Derek, you'd have to go watch the Fate Nike commercial from 2006. Okay, for Steven Jackson. No, it's the J.N. Tomlinson. Well, I guess both. I think it's Exorcist of Gold, the song from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is playing the whole time. And it's clips of them as little kids, and then they get older, and then it ends with them on the field together. Go look it up if you've never watched it before. It's very, very good. And speaks to a different time.

45:30Derrik Klassen: We're on a tangent, but I feel it's very, it's, this is the perfect show for it though. The other one that I go back and rewatch them all the time are the fantasy football commercials. Of course the fantasy files, Chris Cooley, digging through the drywall to catch footballs from the jugs machine. I watch that like once a year.

45:48Robert Mays: Mason Crosby banging them off of like the bell tower. Right. Like it's, yeah,

45:52Derrik Klassen: there's a lot of Andre Johnson's like catching punts from the jug. That's real.

45:56Robert Mays: That's real. That one's real. Any of the Andre Johnson stuff is actually real. Got it. Am I up?

46:02Dave Helman: no no I think Derek's up no oh yeah because you just did Steven Davis okay um all right I've done I've done a couple of defenders here I'm going to move over to the offensive side of the ball but we're going to talk about a big boy Mikey Upati was awesome for the San Francisco 49ers and then for a little bit for the Arizona Cardinals as well but I remember him because this was right around when I started like really seriously watching football like around the harbaugh era 49ers like this was a little bit when i started like watching film and all that stuff he was like a gap scheme demon like what they were able to do with that offensive line and obviously with the quarterback once colin kaepernick took over but like that run game was so good because of the way that he was able to move people like he i looked this up too because like obviously he looks big on film 330 pounds with a almost 35 inch arms it was insane what do you do What do you do?

46:59Dave Helman: What do you do when that guy gets his grips on you? And so he just, I remember him like, and it was funny too. And I think this is why he's kind of a good hall of fame, hall of very good candidate in the same way that like Thomas Davis was. I think by most people's estimation, he was never the best offensive lineman on his team.

47:15Robert Mays: Because that's also a product of the team.

47:17Dave Helman: Well, right. No, exactly. Like the team was obviously incredible, but like Joe Staley was always to his left. Especially playing left tackle. Like that guy is always going to get a lot more of the credit and whatever buzz an offensive lineman is going to get. But Mikey Potty next to him was just like constantly mashing people. He made four Pro Bowls in a row. I think it was 2012 through 2015. And one of them was on the Cardinals. So this was not just like an exclusive to him playing for the 49ers. And during that run, like he still had a really good career after that when things obviously fell apart for the Harbaugh era.

47:45Dave Helman: So there are not like earnestly, there are not that many like dominant offensive linemen. I remember early on in my like seriously analyzing watching football, at least interior guys. Mikey Potty was just like, that guy is different.

48:00Robert Mays: The worst offensive lineman on those teams was probably Anthony Davis, who was the 11th overall pick in the draft and isn't considered somebody who was like a bust. Even Jonathan Goodwin was the center on those teams, right? I believe he was. I'm just pulling that, but I'm pretty sure it was Jonathan Goodwin was the center. And then Alex Boone was also like a massive mauling guard on those teams. And those offensive lines were crazy. Like the, the, those, the way those teams were built in the Harbaugh era and just the fronts on both sides of the ball, just full of ass kicking dudes. And Mike Ayupati is probably the best possible example of that.

48:39Derrik Klassen: It's wild that San Francisco had two different eras where their roster was that loaded. But I mean, when you make the NFC championship game with regularity two different times in a decade span, I mean, it makes sense, but just two different, completely different eras where it just felt like their hole too deep was pro goal caliber players.

49:01Robert Mays: Jonathan Goodwin was there for three years. He was the center from 2011 to 2013. So I'm counting that. That was a good chunk of those seasons. All right. My next one. Let's stick with the big boys. I'm going with Snacks Harrison. Oh, man.

49:18Derrik Klassen: That's a great one. I'm tempted to say he's too good. One Pro Bowl. Well, okay. the thing that works in your favor is that he's a space eating d tackle and those guys just don't

49:29Robert Mays: get postseason accolades he was a first team all pro one time and i typically try to avoid any sort of first or second team all pros as part of this but it's his only postseason accolade that he ever received in his entire career he's it's recent enough where i assume a lot of people who listen to this show remember watching snacks harrison but his best couple seasons were a decade ago now so I don't want to assume too much. We just wish somebody a happy 23rd birthday on the last mailbag. I assume KH or whatever his name is. I assume KH wasn't watching Snacks Harrison in 2017. So Snacks Harrison for four years, five years, was the best run defending defensive tackle in the league.

50:10Robert Mays: Like for an extended period of time, he was the best run defending defensive tackle in the league. And Dave, framing him that way is correct, right? Like he is like a big nose tackle, but a lot of the guys who are these big nose tackles are simply space eaters. He was incredibly productive. He led the league per PFF in run stops three years in a row. He had 52 of them in 2016. That's crazy.

50:40Derrik Klassen: He had snacks. Harrison had multiple 80 tackle seasons. Just nobody like him in the league at that point.

50:47Dave Helman: That's crazy even for D tackles who like their thing is to get into the backfield. You know, like if like a Grady Jerry gets 80 tackles, that's crazy. Let alone someone who is eating that much space.

50:58Robert Mays: Being that big and then you watch him just like being able to control blockers playing down the line of scrimmage. Like the combination of anchor ability, size, and being productive and playmaking and being a disruptor in the way that he was. There was truly nobody in the league like him. I mean, he was, and he was incredible with the jets, that jets defensive line overall, like Muhammad Wilkerson is. Oh, he's another good one. That sort of exercise, like Muhammad Wilkerson, Calvin pace was a good player back then. Those jets, jets, D lines were really good, but then snacks Harrison goes from that jets D line to the giants.

51:34Robert Mays: And then you watch him in 2017. Doesn't miss a beat. Like is just as good, just as dominant, just as effective. And he was truly in the class of his own when it came to interior defensive lineman defending the run during that era of the NFL.

51:49Dave Helman: He is such a great pull because again, like his, his prime here is like right when I started kind of doing this stuff seriously. And so until Vitavea came around, Harrison was like the guy I put on the pedestal for like, that's what a nose guard who can defend the run really looks like. Like that is play in play out picture perfect football for what it looked like for again, like you said, like three, four years, which actually is a lot for that position. It doesn't feel like there's only ever like one or two guys in the league at most at as a pure nose tackle who like have sustained success like that.

52:24Dave Helman: Obviously, as of late, it's been like Vitave and Dexter Lawrence. You really only get one or two of those guys in the league at a given time. The fact that he was that guy for that era, he was awesome.

52:33Derrik Klassen: I'm kind of shocked I didn't know this because I'm a draft nerd. Damon Harrison when undrafted out of William Penn College which is an NAIA school that's not division 1, 2 or 3 he doesn't get brought up enough in terms of undrafted success stories

52:52Robert Mays: Michael Bennett was also undrafted Michael Bennett played at Texas A &M

52:57Derrik Klassen: there's levels to this that's crazy

53:00Robert Mays: I could if you really wanted to and this is, it's an entirely different exercise and the point of it is different, making the case for guys on Cancourt. I could absolutely make like a full-throated argument about why Snax Harrison is a Hall of Fame level player, but he doesn't have nearly the accolades to be involved in those sorts of conversations. And so I am happy and excited to acknowledge and appreciate his career in a space like this.

53:25Derrik Klassen: Let's do, that's another great segue for my next guy, which is another big player. Before we get to that, let's take one more quick break.

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55:09Derrik Klassen: All right, let it roll. Another big guy played in the New York area, played a position where it can be hard to stand out or get accolades. DeBrickishaw Ferguson. Great one.

55:20Robert Mays: Great one. Wow. Both those teams again, and Nick Mangold was such a good center on those teams. Like the offensive and defensive lines in that era of the Jets underrated.

55:29Derrik Klassen: I'll be honest. And he was a good player in his own right to bring a shot Ferguson, a three-time pro bowler. He was the left tackle for both of the Jets teams that made the run to the AFC title game with Rex Ryan across those two playoff runs. So multiple games over multiple years, seven pressures and one sack allowed in the Jets reaching the Oh nine and 10 AFC title games. I think that would have been the Colts and the Steelers. Yeah. Just a phenomenal player. But I'll be honest, the thing that really blew my mind about DeBrickishaw Ferguson is something I didn't learn until years after he retired because he was drafted top five in 06, played till 15.

56:11Derrik Klassen: Do you know about his Ironman thing? DeBrickishaw Ferguson only missed one snap in his NFL career.

56:20Robert Mays: That's crazy.

56:20Derrik Klassen: And it gets way better. I got to give Kyle Brandt credit for bringing this to my attention. He did a video about it some years ago, and it blew my mind when I saw it, and I've remembered it ever since. He played 10 ,707 out of a possible 10 ,708 NFL snaps. That's insane. He was never on an injury report. Okay, but it gets better. He would have the Ironman streak that Joe Thomas has right now. He would own it if he hadn't been pulled out of a game in week 17, 2008 season. Eric Mangini is the coach. It's the year before Rex Ryan gets there and the Jets get good. They pull him out to run some bullshit, pitchy, pitchy, woo-woo end of game thing.

57:08Derrik Klassen: They put Darrell Revis in at left tackle because it's some gimmick shit. and that is the reason he doesn't own the all-time consecutive snaps played streak. It's the only snap he ever missed.

57:22Robert Mays: How much does DeBregashe Ferguson hate Eric Mangini?

57:25Derrik Klassen: We need an addendum for how that's counted.

57:27Dave Helman: That is absurd.

57:29Derrik Klassen: It's unbelievable. According to the internet, he was never on the injury report playing on the offensive line in the NFL over 10 years.

57:36Robert Mays: Those are all very notable and very important football accolades. I would argue that in terms of DeBricashaw Ferguson's lasting legacy, the most important thing he ever did was inspire the Key and Peele bit about the East-West Shrine Bowl. I don't think I knew he was the inspiration for that. He was the reason that they did it, was that there was a guy named DeBricashaw, and they had to mine this territory. So I don't think that sketch exists without DeBricashaw Ferguson, which is more important.

58:07Derrik Klassen: In terms of, like, no offense to DeBricashaw, because he was a really good player. But in terms of like lasting cultural impact, it might be P.M. Peel. It might be. One more thing. He's a registered nurse now. Like truly just one of the most interesting people that I can think of in the NFL sphere. It's a great one. Yeah.

58:24Robert Mays: Really, really good. We went to Berkshire Ferguson. All right, Derek, what's your next one?

58:28Dave Helman: All right, I'm actually calling a little bit of an audible and I'm going to go back to a position I've already mined before and Dave will actually be very familiar with this player. sean lee another very good linebacker oh man oh really sean lee was on my short list i you can

58:44Robert Mays: get into it i'll talk about why i didn't end up choosing sean lee but i fully fully support this

58:49Dave Helman: part of it might have been like if he just had better like health he would have been a player

58:53Robert Mays: that's the reason because it he didn't end up becoming a player that was a hall of fame caliber player because he got hurt that's why i didn't want to include him but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be talked about in something like this.

59:05Dave Helman: And it wasn't one thing, right? Like, obviously he missed, I think the entirety of the 2014 season with a torn ACL, but every other year it was something with him. And that was kind of always the issue. But when he was on the field, I remember, again, this is like the really the start of when I started doing this. Sean Lee was one of the best coverage players in the NFL and one of the best pure run through play. Like a lot of the stuff I actually said about Thomas Davis kind of applies to Sean Lee. Like Sean Lee found a way to get his hand on the ball in a way that not that many linebackers at that time really did because if you think about it too like he was so he was drafted 2010 out of Penn State and then obviously starts to have his peak closer to like 2013 through 2016 ish there still weren't that many linebackers who were like great coverage players by that point like we were still kind of in an era coming out of the earlier 2000s where it was a lot of run and hit a lot of downhill and Sean Lee could do that and he was a big guy he really was a special coverage player in terms of what he was able to take away playing with the quarterback's eyes driving on the ball and so him he to me along with guys like Keekly along with guys like Bobby Wagner felt like he to me was one of those guys who fostered in a a different era of like of linebacker in the NFL

1:00:18Robert Mays: just a phenomenal football player yeah I mean it's Dave no you don't have to convince me about this like he's one of my all-time favorite players i went to dallas in 2016 i i think that's how we

1:00:32Derrik Klassen: met it might have been i think like you you went to the facility to write about sean and i saw you there and like knew who you were from your work and i'm pretty sure that's how we met i pitched

1:00:45Robert Mays: a story about him in that year because that year that 2016 cowboys year was obviously this magical season that no one could have seen coming because Dak was a rookie. And so Dak and Zeke were rookies. Tony Romo had gotten hurt. They have this magical year. And so much of the talk was about the offense, the offensive line, what they were doing. But the fact that Sean Lee was healthy for that season, because he wasn't for the 2014 season when they went on a very similar run, it was like a very cool part of that Cowboys year is that Sean Lee really got to be a part of it. And I just always loved watching him play.

1:01:16Robert Mays: And he was somebody that could just never stay healthy. and so I remember going down to Dallas and writing a story about him and reporting it out and talking to a bunch of different people and there were so many different anecdotes that stuck out but he's truly one of the smartest football players I've like ever spoken to he was in the Cowboys front office for a couple years now I think it's his own company but he was doing like remote scouting for them he's working on like analytics and stuff dude did it right made a lot of money went to Santa Barbara for a vacation once fell in love with it bought a house in Santa Barbara retired there just the dream like if you have the money to do it like this man knew what he was doing and the story that always sticks out to me in the pre-draft process the cowboys uber flus was the linebacker coach at the time and he had like a questionnaire essentially like a test for young players after he would teach them the defense it was 40 questions long and sean lee got 39 of the 40 questions right on the questionnaire and five years later still remember the question he got wrong.

1:02:14Robert Mays: He's like, I couldn't remember like what a certain B gap blitz was called. And so just his like football acumen, he existed on a different plane than a lot of guys do. And you combine that with just toughness, range, everything else. He was a phenomenal football player.

1:02:28Derrik Klassen: I personally, and there are dozens, hundreds of guys like this across the NFL, especially at linebacker. I feel like it's just a position where you have to be wired a certain way. but me personally I have never spent time with a player who was more about ball than Sean Lee just all the time always like you just said like remembering shit he got wrong like five years after the fact I remember I interviewed him for a Walter Payton man of the year story when he was nominated for it one time in Dallas and listening to him and his wife talk about how mad he would be for like days after the fact after his wife is also great she was yeah she was awesome talking about how he's you know he would just flip out at like three days after a game is over about something that went wrong during the game it could have even been a game that they won he just like held himself to this crazy high standard his position coach or his defensive coordinator in

1:03:28Robert Mays: college gave me a quote for the story i was looking up what you were talking that uh it was one of those things when you're reporting something out and somebody says it and you're just like god i I hope that thing is on. Like, you just want it so bad. And he said, Sean is the kind of guy who's trying to play the perfect game. He's never going to, but that's what he's trying to do. Like trying to play a perfect football game. And Iberflus, that year in 2016, when they played the Giants, it was the highest single game grade Iberflus had ever given to a linebacker. I think he finished with 22 tackles in that game.

1:03:56Derrik Klassen: Wow. The Cowboys do, they still do it. You call it a Blue Star special. They love to draft guys in the second round who wouldn't be there if not for some reason. So Sean Lee was one of those guys because injuries were such a problem. They did it with Randy Gregory because of the failed drug tests. They did it with Jalen Smith because of the knee injury. And Sean is weirdly an example of both things where like he played to this amazing level and he never should have been picked where he was, but his career would have been that much better with a little bit better health.

1:04:32Robert Mays: so obviously one that phenomenal choice they've both appreciated right i gotta say too narrowing

1:04:39Dave Helman: down which linebackers i wanted to go to here was hard there are so many that like or guys that like had like barely not been outside of the five-year window or whatever it was like picking which linebackers i wanted to go was difficult all right so i'm up again right yes speaking of white guys from that era let's do this i'm going with jordy nelson

1:05:00Derrik Klassen: i saw this i saw this coming when you were posting clips of him on on social media i was just going

1:05:05Robert Mays: through different guys again the packers are one of those teams where you could pick donald drivers easily a receiver from those packers teams you could throw into something like this like the packers had so many of these types of players jordy went to one pro bowl which is no that can't be right kind of crazy one one no there's no way one time i really i like my comp

1:05:24Derrik Klassen: that Jordy is Aaron Rodgers is Marcus Colston. Like it's the same shit, different teams.

1:05:29Robert Mays: So in part of the, another reason that I think that's actually really good is that if you look at some of the advanced numbers, Marcus Colston's always like in the top seven for players from that era in terms of like efficiency. The guy who's often near the top of that list is Jordy Nelson. So overall, okay, between 2011 and 2016 for players with 50 targets, there is one player from that in that six year span who averaged a higher EPA per target than Jordy Nelson. It was Rob Gronkowski.

1:06:01Robert Mays: Jordy's targets were the second most efficient of any player in the NFL for that six-year stretch. Gronk was the only one ahead of him. And what I think is so remarkable and why I think Jordy Nelson, we need to keep breathing life into players like this. If you look at a picture of Jordy Nelson and 20 years from now, you ask somebody what type of player Jordy Nelson was. You're going to get a very specific type of answer, and it will be wrong. Jordy Nelson was one of the most dangerous, deep threats in the NFL for like a multi-year period. He was 20th in targets of 20-plus air yards from 2011 to 2016.

1:06:39Robert Mays: 20th, okay? The only player with more touchdowns of 20-plus air yards in that six-year period was A.J. Green. That's it. Jordy had 20 of them on 106 targets 106 deep passes he scored 20 touchdowns that's one out

1:07:00Dave Helman: whenever every five times they threw it obviously you know some of that is Aaron Rodgers always puts it on the money but like Jordy was like he was a track star who was 215 pounds like he was he also and why he was so special and obviously this is part of like the why Rodgers was so special obviously Jordy could like win down the field but his ability to just flip his hips and like catch that sideline ball and toe tap was just like that was that was it it was the back

1:07:24Robert Mays: shoulder stuff and like the mind meld that those two guys had his late hands were insane like he wouldn't even react to a ball like an over show over the shoulder fade ball coming his way look at the one he caught in the super bowl the one he caught in the super bowl against the steelers like he's waiting till the last possible second and then flashing those up there and then And the back shoulder stuff, I remember I did an entire thing about it. I talked to both of them just about the body language, how you develop the timing and the chemistry and how he always knows. And at the time, beyond the back shoulder throws, he was as good at working the sideline, period, of any player in the league during that stretch.

1:08:04Robert Mays: His body control, the toe tap type stuff. And so you have all this refined receiver stuff, along with the fact that nobody in the league was catching more big posts over that three or four year period than Jordy Nelson like he was affecting the the game on so many different levels that that during that stretch that six year stretch he averaged 1.44 EPA per deep target so every time the Packers would throw a 20 plus yard pass to Jordy Nelson they would get a point and a half let me just say here too that I mean those first ones you throw our counting stats he missed the 2015 season yes and he's still yes as high up there as he is that that's the touchdowns is crazy aj green had 73 more 20 plus area targets and one more touchdown during that six-year period jordy nelson was really good okay also i want to

1:08:56Dave Helman: quickly say on the pro bowls he got robbed by his own teammate in 2011 greg jennings who was obviously a really good player but played 13 games and only had 950 yards that year jordy nelson had like 1400 yards and over 10 touchdowns how did how was he not the package receiver that made it that

1:09:13Derrik Klassen: year the one that sticks with me crime forever and he's got a dozen of these i'm sure probably more but 2011 late in the season ironically against the giants who would wound up who wound up beating them in the playoffs he just this disgusting back shoulder sideline ball to you know effectively ice the game for Green Bay, just contorting his body, like his knowledge of the sideline, his ability to high point the ball. It's another thing I would compare him to Colston with too, where back shoulder balls between the accuracy of the quarterback and what they could do up in the air, just an unguardable play for both players.

1:09:53Robert Mays: Yeah, it's those, again, those Packers teams for a lot of reasons live pretty prominently in my mind, some good, some bad. And so there's always going to be some Packers I'm sorting through in an exercise like this. this time around, Jordy was the guy. All right, let's go rapid fire. It was like two or three. Do you want to save it for next year? Or do you want to go a couple rapid fire that you did not get to induct?

1:10:14Derrik Klassen: I don't want to empty the clip, but I'll give a couple more. Mainly, I just, I want to do this one and see. I feel like this is a guy Derek's going to love. Reggie Nelson?

1:10:25Robert Mays: Reggie Nelson was great. Those Jags teams period were incredibly special and fun. And what he did in Cincinnati too. Yeah, he was a good player in Cincinnati.

1:10:33Dave Helman: I remember him a lot in Cincinnati. Because it was him and I think they also had, was it George Iloca? They had George Iloca. Yeah, dude. They were just like.

1:10:43Robert Mays: I can't believe I remember that, but that's who it was.

1:10:46Dave Helman: Those guys and like Vontaze Perfect was on. Those dudes were just slamming people on that defense.

1:10:51Derrik Klassen: Two things I want to say. We'll go rapid fire. So Reggie Nelson got hurt in that, in the famous playoff loss to Pittsburgh where Antonio Brown got knocked out. Didn't play the second half. here's the stat I want to leave you with for Reggie Nelson more career interceptions than Brian Dawkins Tyron Matthew and Earl Thomas and Kevin Byard who's obviously still playing but right now he has more picks than Kevin Byard I think that's insane he had eight that 20 that

1:11:19Robert Mays: 2015 Bengals team was so good they were sick it was so good he had eight interceptions his rookie year it's there I he's obviously more no well known as a Bengal but his rookie year he had five picks for the 2007 Jags who are still one of my favorite all-time aesthetic teams ever Maurice Jones drew uh David Garrard uh those guys on defense uh John Henderson Marcus Stroud that was the year they beat the Steelers in the playoffs yes and then uh Brady went like 20 of 22 against them in the playoffs John Henderson 2023 athletic football show Hall of very good inductee which not not the least bit surprising that's Rasheem Mathis like I just was a huge fan of uh a lot of the stuff happening on those teams.

1:12:02Robert Mays: So Reggie Nelson, very good one. Any other,

1:12:05Dave Helman: that entire 2015 Bengals team. I want to say, like, obviously we've all remember the offense, but that defense with those guys, like Carlos Dunlap and Michael Johnson were like an edge duo after my heart in the sense that they were both like 275 pounds and as long as trees. Those guys were incredible. Obviously the DBs on that team were good. So that is another one.

1:12:24Robert Mays: Jones is somebody that like is a whole, very good candidate. Marvin Jones finished with almost 7 ,500 receiving yards in his career. Like, that's just a really good NFL career.

1:12:36Derrik Klassen: I'll throw out two more quickly. Another completely underrated, nearly forgotten about safety from that time frame, Antoine Buffet. Yes. Really good player. And then this is a childhood hero of mine. And he was before the Breeze Peyton Saints, like before the Saints being a team worth watching was commonplace. Sammy Knight.

1:13:02Robert Mays: Sammy Knight.

1:13:04Derrik Klassen: Sammy Knight, dude.

1:13:04Robert Mays: That's even off my radar.

1:13:06Derrik Klassen: Sammy Knight was a phenomenal safety for like the early 2000 Saints. He also played for the Dolphins and the Chiefs. One time, second team all pro. He made one Pro Bowl. I'm telling you, Sammy Knight was like one of the only good things about some dog shit Saints teams. That's why I don't remember it.

1:13:25Robert Mays: There was not watching a lot of New Orleans Saints football in 1999.

1:13:28Derrik Klassen: When they broke through with Jim Hazlitt in 01, he was second team All-Pro for the team that won the Saints' first playoff game.

1:13:36Robert Mays: Sammy Knight.

1:13:37Derrik Klassen: We're really digging deep here. I love this. Underrated player.

1:13:40Robert Mays: Derek, you got a couple guys you want to run through very quickly.

1:13:42Dave Helman: I think a lot of the other ones I have here are probably too good for the exercise, so I'm going to leave it off and we'll rework my strategy for next year. Okay.

1:13:51Robert Mays: I feel very good about this class. This really does speak to the spirit of what we're trying to do here.

1:13:56Derrik Klassen: It's a great class, and Katie's got a special graphic for them. Do they get jackets? That could be next year's merch contest. We could send them cool sweaters because this is a very sweater-friendly show.

1:14:09Robert Mays: I'd be curious to hear what these guys would have to say if this matters more to them than getting into the Hall of Fame would i assume it's at least on par like if things you dream about as a little kid getting into canton wearing the gold jacket probably at the top but being a part of the athletic football show hall very good probably in the top three or four hey we can get them silver jackets i mean i don't know some geeks on a podcast really liked watching you play great that that's what it's all about i'm sure snacks harrison will let us know uh that was incredibly fun very much enjoyed getting back to that.

1:14:44Robert Mays: We will not let three years pass between this class and the next class. So we'll be back to it next summer. Appreciate all of you guys tuning in. We will be back again tomorrow with our next Lingering Questions show. Very much looking forward to that. Apologize for taking a week off from those. We did it for a bunch of different reasons, but we're still going to have five coming your way. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating.

1:15:20Robert Mays: We'll see you next time.

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