Hop aboard the 2026 Coaching Carousel

0:03Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays got a fun one a familiar one on the feed today our buddy Connor or from sports illustrated in the mmqb somebody who does more and better work in the coaching space than I think anybody else who covers the NFL. He has his annual list of potential head coaching candidates dropping today. That is kind of, that is a coincidence by the way we just did not know that was happening when we asked him to come on the show, but it is coming out today. And so that's what we spent today doing. We dug into 12 to 15 or so names of head coaching candidates that are going to be sought after in this cycle, starting with the guys we think are going to be at the top and then just kind of going down the rungs as we went.

0:43I love doing the show every single year with Connor. It's something that I have a ton of interest in and he does it in a way that really no one else does. And so always enjoy doing it. Today was no exception. Let's get to that conversation with me and Connor right now.

1:02Joining us today for what has become, I think an annual podcast. I think we've done this like at least two or three years in a row and I don't think we could go a regular season without doing it. Here to break down the coaching carousel that is to come over the next couple months, it is our old buddy from the MMQB and Sports Illustrated, Connor Orr. How you doing, man? I'm doing well, thanks. This is like pre-Christmas. I'm very, very excited. This is my time of year. We were talking last night over text and I think both of us acknowledged This is one of the weirder head coaching carousels and pool of candidates that I can remember since I started paying attention to this stuff.

1:41And you had a similar thought. And so I want to before we dive into the actual people, I want to talk about the dynamics at play and why this feels like the strangest year in a while, because I really do think it's a little bit different. So I think that there's three main factors that are occurring here. One is that offensive play callers have been strip mined like precious metal and there is just nothing left. And we've overfished the pool. We have overfished the pool. And so there's maybe one or two candidates, but with certain flaws that you're going to have to get over. And then there's a young pool.

2:20But are you going to be that team that's going to hire a 30 year old with no guarantee that he's going to be the next Sean McVay? or do you wait for them to get seasoned and a little bit riper? I think the second factor is that Mike McDonald and the Seahawks are showing that perhaps the best way to deal with McVay and Shanahan is not to keep trying to hire play callers who can keep up with McVay or Shanahan, but to hire defensive coaches who can slow them down a little bit. And there's a lot of those, right? Like we are rich with defensive talent in the market, which is good. The third factor that I think that we're just now starting to look at and to realize is if this Bengals job opens, the market goes bat nuts because Joe Burrow, you can coach Joe Burrow.

3:09And that is the golden goose. And that's what everybody's going to want. And, you know, even though it's Cincinnati and there are certain considerations with with that job and what comes with that job as well, everybody's going to want that job. And so now you have it all kind of laid out on the floor. It's like, what's that game perfection where everything pops out of the board? And this is what we're looking at right now. OK, so I don't want to dig into the opening specifically because I think that we'll hit that naturally as we go through some of the candidates. Like we'll play Nashmaker a little bit with some of the names.

3:38But just very quickly, obviously, the Titans and Giants jobs are already open. What are the other ones that you think are likely to come open? And what do we think the maybes are? We can run through this pretty fast. So the Cardinals, certainly you're looking at as a maybe to maybe likely. the Raiders you're looking at as maybe to maybe likely. The Dolphins are certainly on the fence. I'm still in the camp that I think that Mike McDonald is going to hold on to this job. But, you know, I think that there's there's always a potential that things could change there. Cleveland, I think, is headed in that direction.

4:12Cincinnati is a toss up. And what am I missing here? I think Atlanta. I think Atlanta is the other one that's going that's going in that direction. So we could have like six to seven openings by the time this is all said and done. I don't think that would surprise anybody. Right. I think the, I got from my range was like five to nine and then nine would include Cincinnati. And if there was a change, if Mike Tomlin decided to step down at the end of this year, which is, it's just possible. So, yeah, so that that's pretty normal, but that part of it is pretty standard. We usually have about that many in any given year.

4:47Nine would be a lot, but there have been plenty of years where we've been up in that general range. So that's not a surprise. That's not an exception. The types of coaches we're talking about are exceptions, like we just mentioned. So let's dig into that. Let's just start at the top. Like, who do you think if you had to pick two or three guys that in your mind are going to be the most sought after candidates as part of this cycle, where would that list start for you? Well, I think that you look at Vance Joseph, and I think that Vance has greatly improved his candidacy. I think if teams were willing to dig into what's happening schematically, he is behind a lot of the defensive evolutions that we've seen over the last year.

5:29A lot of the stuff that he's showing in Denver is stuff that a lot of teams are trying to now latch on and copy. And I would say that his tenure in Denver was, you know, you can look at that under a completely new light now where you have John Elway trying to pick the quarterback. You're basically taking the remnants of an old Peyton Manning Super Bowl team. It was a disaster scenario everywhere he's gone since then. He's done a really good job. I think he'll interview heavily. And I think that I think that that'll look good for him. I think he'll do well. I think he'll get a job. Jesse Minter is another one from L.A.

6:01really interesting case there where I, I, I, Jim Harbaugh, I even said it last year. He's like, yeah, he's, I'm going to lose him this off season and that's going to suck. And then didn't get any interviews. And, um, I, I texted countless people and I was like, what happened? And nobody had a satisfying answer. They're like, I don't know. It just didn't, didn't get any interviews. Um, that's going to change. I think that, um, I feel pretty confident that, uh, Jesse Minter is going to go. And then you have kind of your question marks, right? Would you do a third with Mike McCarthy? And I think he's only really going to fit into one job in particular.

6:38Um, so I don't know, same with Cliff Kingsbury where I know that he's going to be highly selective. And so if I had to pick a third, it would, I would probably lean in the direction of Jeff Halfley from green Bay. A lot of people like him. Uh, he interviewed well last year and, uh, I think he is one of those guys that, uh, Matt LaFleur is, has been doing a really good job, I think, encouraging him and pushing him. Same with Adam Stinovich, where he's a coach that you want in your corner, a head coach that you want in your corner. And I think that that helps Halfley as well. So those three are really interesting.

7:08Let's go through them kind of individually. The Cliff thing, I'd be surprised if there was like overwhelming interest in him. I guess the reason that there might be is like we mentioned, there just aren't that many offensive guys. But I think the specificity that they play with is potentially a turnoff if you actually dig down like a layer or two deeper. And so I think that's something you'd have to wrestle with if you were going to be hiring him. This is not somebody who's coming off of one of those trees, right? I think that when you look at the offensive coordinator hires that have even worked in recent years, for the most part, just picking the next guy off of that family is a quicker route to success than going with someone who has a little bit more of a unique identity from that perspective.

7:49And so I think you can ascribe that to the play calling head coach as well. So what happens with Cliff will be interesting, especially in what has been a down year for Washington. Cliff needs the right quarterback and he needs the right. And he has it now. And he has it now. So I like that. That's part of it where it's like, if you're Cliff, like I think it'd probably be worth coming back rather than having you pick the last job available to you in this cycle. Yeah. So let's dig into the three defensive head coaches. I think these are, I think with, with Minter and Vance specifically, I think there are two different dynamics at play with defensive minded head coaches with Vance, with some of these guys who are a little bit deeper into their tenure.

8:30And I would throw Brian Flores into this as well, even though obviously there are several layers to that, that complicate things, right? But with, with aging defensive coordinators, guys have been around for a long time. Vance is what in his early fifties at this point, he's 53, 53. Yep. He's 53. You need to be undeniable. that that is the word that i would use and that is the descriptor i would use with these defensive head coaches you need to be so good for so long that they're just like well we he has to get another chance like why he's pushed himself to the top of the pile and i think that's exactly what has happened with vance over the last few years in denver is that what he has done is so undeniably consistent and potent that he's forcing himself into these discussions and what he did in Arizona, I was always impressed with.

9:17I thought he was resourceful. I thought he was creative. And so what he's done with better talent in Denver is not surprising, but if you're a 53 year old defensive coordinator, again, you need to do it for so long that it's like, I'm breaking down the door. I'm not even leaving any ambiguity as terms of how deserving I am for one of these jobs. And I think he's done that. I think the other thing that Vance has going for him specifically is, and you hate to fall on something like this, but there are a couple of jobs that are just outright chaotic right now. There are a couple of situations that are outright chaotic.

9:51And it's almost like the Dan Quinn factor where not only do you have a schematic background that people are interested in, but your vibes are off the charts. And sometimes if you're an owner and you live through a situation that's bad enough to necessitate, and we have two in-season coach firings this year, and then we're going to have a bunch more after the season's over. I think he's one of those guys that comes in and really changes the temperature in the room. And I think that that's significant. I mean, you can't count that out. I totally agree with that. He does have like a calming presence about him, which is when you watch them play, you would think that it's a lot more chaotic than that.

10:27But when you talk to Vance, like he is truly like a veteran of this profession. He's seen a lot of things and he does have, he does have the right kind of makeup and composure for one of those situations. Like I'd be curious what he would do in someplace like the Raiders. Yeah. Like, I don't know if he necessarily has the stomach at this stage for like a full scale. Like we need to change the drapes in the building. Like we need to like change the color of the grout. Like that's where we are right now with that team. And so I think that's a tough task for anybody, but I agree with you that he is wired in a way that I think he might have the stomach for it in a way that maybe younger guys who haven't seen as much might not.

11:03And I also think in that way, Obviously the Broncos, even when John Elway was picking the wrong quarterbacks, I think that there's a level of like stability and competency to most parts of the organization. Arizona is not that way. Right. And so I think it's different now that money is there. And I do think that they approach things a little bit differently now. But that used to be in a very similar way to what the Raiders is a mom and pop organization that did the same thing in the same ways for a very, very long time. I mean, if you look at the people that they hired to run the Cardinals for essentially 20 years, it was all in-house promotions.

11:40And so there was really no self-reflection. And so you're walking into what even at the time when he was there from like 2019 to 2022 was still a fairly dysfunctional situation, even if they were winning some games. And so I do think that he has a decent amount of history and experience with a situation like that specifically. Yeah. And I think too, uh, you know, I think anyone who's with him would mention the fact that that was a critical stage in his development. And you can go back and look at some of the tentacles of, I mean, that was back when McVay was still just gashing everybody and Vance saw him twice a year.

12:14And I believe if I'm not mistaken, like remember that there was a lot of the early kind of jet sweepy, uh, Maryland stuff that Sean McVay was running. And Vance was the first one that really decoded a lot of that. And I think put some blueprints on tape where he was like, why are we doing, why are we going nuts every time they motion? Why aren't we just like staying sound and, and kind of putting our state in our, in our lanes and stuff like that. And I think he really was influential in that way. And then when he went to Denver, you can just see it kind of take off. I mean, now with regularity, they're just beating some of the best teams in football with not a lot of help from an offense.

12:49So I think he's really, really helped himself this year. And one of the things I like about Vance too, is that the defenses look different depending on where he's been and who he has. And so the amount of man they play in Denver, and they also dress it up in a different way than a lot of other teams do. They play a lot of man from two high structures. It's very modern defense, but when he was in Arizona, it was a lot of zone principles. And then every once in a while, I remember, I think it was the 2020 season. I went down there and did a story about him at the time because of how well they were doing on defense.

13:17And I think it might've been a 2021 season. I did that because it was my first year writing at the athletic, but I remember going down there and talking to him about all the man they were playing for a stretch the season before. And he's like, well, our guys got hurt. We couldn't, we couldn't play zone. We literally couldn't communicate. And so that's how much turnover there was. And so he's been really resourceful and a good problem solver in that situation. I think that's a good thing to have as a defensive minded head coach. So if he's in the bucket of undeniable, I think mentor is the exact candidate and we can draw the parallels to McDonald in terms of their experiences and where they've been.

13:49I almost think that's a coincidence here, but I think Jesse Minter is the exact candidate that is going to be helped by what McDonald is doing right now. Because last year we were still in a world where it was all offense all the time. And I think that you needed two years and not only two years of success, but one year of like extreme success. Like we're one of the best teams in the league from McDonald because we know this, like you need owners who are chasing an archetype to make that archetype worthwhile and attractive to these teams. And so now the fact that we're two years into the McDonald thing and he can kind of become in a way that archetype for defensive coaches in the same way that McVay was for offensive coaches, that is directly going to help somebody like Dressie Minter and even Jeff Halfley in a way it might not have last off season.

14:39Yeah. And the fact that just the realities of what we're looking at right now. We're looking at, and even all these quarterbacks, half of them are going to miss the playoffs. There's four or five of these monolith players. And then there's really the rest of the NFL. I mean, you don't know what you're going to get out of these guys week in and week out. How many of these guys can legitimately win you games? I mean, how many of these guys have we said were the MVP in week six, and then they're terrible in week eight and we can't trace why. And the defense, that is kind of the sustainable underbelly of all this.

15:13I mean, it wasn't just Mike McDonald on one hand, but like Brian Flores, like legitimately weaponizing a defense like we haven't seen in terms of scoring, in terms of the way that you're basically disarming any kind of offense. Doesn't matter how good it is. I think that is the thing that owners are looking at and being like, okay, well, if we can't have the cool thing where we score 50 points a game, like this is, this is pretty neat. And it's more cost effective a lot of times. And I think it just works. And so I think Jesse is one of those guys where he was strong at Michigan. He comes from that formative Ravens background, which defensively still matters to a lot of owners and a lot of search firms, stuff like that.

15:51People are looking at stuff like that. And I think like he's drawing talent from the back end of the draft consistently in multiple places. And so it's like, check, check, check, you know, family lineages. Dad was a longtime head coach at Cincinnati, Rick Minter. And so I think that there's a lot there for, for people that he can walk into an interview room and just knock it out of the park. I think mindset wise, in terms of their approach, again, I don't want to like draw too many parallels between them. They're different people, but I think that both Jesse and Mike have a very pronounced practicality to them.

16:27Like there isn't a lot of like sunshine and rainbows, blue sky type stuff where it's just like, Oh, we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And if we fix this, it's going to go that way that you sometimes hear from coaches. There is a lot of like, this is what we have. And we're going to try to do the best we can in assembling those pieces into what we think will work. And I think a lot of coaches kind of grounded in that where it's like, I'm under no illusions in terms of like what my guys are capable of and what they're not. And I think I have to make sure I'm putting something together that allows them to be successful in that way.

16:57And I think both of those guys are like that. And so I would be shocked if he was not somebody that got a decent amount of interest in this cycle, again, because of some of that DNA that he shares with Mike and the success that Mike has had. I look at defensive coaches. I talked to Marvin Lewis about this once, and that was a precursor for him in hiring other defensive coaches. I need you to spend a year at Pocatillo State. I need you to spend a year at Indiana State. Georgia State. And I think Jesse Minter, if I'm not mistaken, was I think Indiana State and Georgia State before Baltimore. And I think he worked for his dad in Cincinnati for a little bit before that.

17:31But that is the birthplace of, holy shit, what are we going to do? Like, we need the wide receiver to play free safety today. And I think that is where you find a lot of your answers in a lot of your options. And I think that that's why, you know, just the way that some of this has gone and some of the fast tracking, you lose it. But those coaches just eventually rise to the top because they're so good. Mike McDonald was the same way. The last one here that you mentioned with Jeff Halfley, it's just not at all surprising. I think from the first time I talked to Jeff Halfley, it was one of those things where like, oh, okay.

18:11Like he was a head coach. He carries himself like a head coach. And there are just, there are guys, and I'm sure you've had this experience and we can talk about it and not specifically, but just in terms of like what this feels like, where you're talking to a guy who's a coordinator and he feels like a coordinator, right? Like the way he carries himself. You belong in a dark room. Yeah, it's just like, and I don't, you don't like to pigeonhole guys because there are certain people that look like, Andy Reid doesn't look like Sean McVay, right? He doesn't carry himself that way. There's success to be found in a bunch of different ways.

18:44And there are a lot of ways to comport yourself as an NFL coach and still find success. but I think you can still feel it when you're around guys who have like a quiet confidence. There's a composure about them. They carry themselves a certain way. Jeff Halfley is that at the podium when you're talking to him in any sort of conversation. And so it's not at all surprising that he is somebody that's going to be mentioned here. And what I've really appreciated about him over the last two years is that there is a creativity and a flexibility about, okay, what do we, again, what do we have and how do we need to play in order to get the most out of that?

19:17And I think this year they're coming into that. I feel like in the first half of the season, they weren't quite as creative with some of the pass rush stuff just because they had Micah and they scaled it back over the last couple of weeks. I think they've started to ratchet it back up again. And I think you're starting to see what makes them so dangerous. And so, again, not at all surprised that he's going to be one of those guys that's consistently mentioned. And if you I think it was his final press conference of the season or might have been their pre-draft press conference where I think it was him and LeFleur both came out and said like, we need interior help.

19:50Like our interior is not good and we need to generate interior pass rush. And then Gudekunst was like, well, here's the best outside pass rusher in the league. Figure that out. And then, you know, like you said, fast forward 12, 13 weeks, you are making some of the biggest run stuffs and most critical spot run stuffs that we've seen all season just because of the way you're aligning and designing things. And what's funny about Halfley is I interviewed the AD at Boston college last year about him. Cause last year was his first year on the list. And the, the athletic director at BC was like, you know, I don't know how to say this man, but like, we're not getting good players here.

20:29You know, it's kind of, you know, it's kind of a luck of the draw. And it, you know, the fact that he was winning bowl games, like winning seven, eight games a year for us, building a phenomenal staff. I mean, his offensive coordinator at BC was Steve Shimko, who's the quarterback's coach in Dallas now. And I think the two of them could pair up if they ever, if Halfley ends up getting a head coaching job, like that staff is everywhere in the NFL. He hired really good coaches. He won games. And what his best player was Zay Flowers over the course of three years, you could say at Boston College.

21:04And so that again, it's the mark of resourcefulness, but also owners really like that program stuff. And I think, too, he plays really well for the Giants job in particular. And I know we'll play some matchmaking later, but I think that is one of the reasons why he's like codified on that list. I was going to ask you with the Giants job specifically, because he's obviously he's from the area, which I think is overblown. But I think people locally have made that connection and that's why his name keeps coming up. So what other elements of that job do you think are well suited to a coach like Jeff Halfley if he were to land with the Giants?

21:35So, I mean, you obviously have all that money that's on the defensive side of the ball. And I think that there's an attraction to, you know, can you and Micah Parsons is not an easy player to coach. Let's be real. He's a phenomenal player, but he's not an easy player to coach. Abdul Carter's the same way, needs to understand the why behind everything, needs to be regularly featured and needs to be engaged in order to succeed. And so I think that's something that he's not getting in New York presently. You still have a lot of meat left on that Brian Burns contract. And I know that they're not entirely thrilled with Kayvon Thibodeau, but would love to get something out of him at this point.

22:11And if you're looking in totality at this list, you know, who's going to present the best option to come in? It's going to be like, hey, look at what I did with Mike. He was all over the field. He was, I mean, if Miles Garrett somehow, I mean, he's going to win defensive player of the year, but Michael finished in second. And so I think he comes in with those bona fides. The other part of this is that the Giants have made a lot of experimental, and I put that in air quotes, hires. They've deviated from their norm, which was very much a norm for a long time. I think this one fits back into a middle of the fairway hire for them where, I mean, let's be real.

22:4590 % of the people who work in that building graduated from Boston College. John Mayer is a Boston College guy. Half of the people in decision-making places are from Boston College. There's a lot of Notre Dame people there, too. and we can get to that later. But I just think that this is like a down the middle hire for them that everyone would like. And it's, you know, how do those work out? I don't know. Aaron Glenn was like that. And we can debate whether that was a good decision or not. But I think the Giants kind of just need down the middle right now. They need to hit the fairway with this one.

23:14It's funny that you say that because I think in a lot of ways, if you look at the resume only, Brian Dable is kind of that like, oh, that makes sense candidate. Oh yeah. But not from like a presentation and personality standpoint in the way that Jeff Halfley is. And I think that is the key difference between the general appeal of one hire versus the other. What's amazing about Dable though, and I will say this, right? Because I have warned in print and maybe in an impassing conversation to anybody that I've ever met that was associated with the Giants job, you will lose this job at a press conference.

23:46And how many of these guys in a row lost that job at a press conference? Ben McAdoo trying to bench Eli Manning. Joe Judd's just all of a sudden just blasting Ron Rivera and the commanders for no reason. And like a 45 minute rant, like, what are you doing? They wanted to keep you. And Dable, it was by far the angriest and quickest trigger temper out of all of them. And he held on to the bitter end of that. It was remarkable. It was remarkable. He lost it on the sideline. Yeah. He lost it on the sideline and behind closed doors, not at the press conference, which is impressive, actually. Yeah. The one other thing, just to kind of put a button on these three guys.

24:22And I'm with you in a sense where it comes to, okay, if we can't be better than them offensively, let's have the answer. We're in year one of this working with Mike McDonald because he found the right offensive coordinator, right? You are at the mercy of who you get to come in and call plays for you. And so that is, I know I've been beating this drum for 10 years. I'm going to keep beating it. Look at what Liam Cohen is doing. Look at what Ben Johnson is doing. this is the fastest path to getting where you want to go because in order to be successful and consistently successful in the NFL you need a good offense if you can have a situation like Mike did where he comes in he's the best defensive coach in the league they find the right play caller picked in part because I think Mike has a very good understanding of what he wanted from that offense after sitting with what he didn't want for a year and I think that's another thing that if you have the right defensive coach they're going to understand what needs to happen on the offensive side of the ball.

25:20And maybe that focuses your search for the right person. But we know that if you have the right person for the most part, that guy's going to go very quickly. And so that is going to continue to be something that you have to think about. I think the Bucks are a very good example of this. Right. I think what's interesting, the play on that, that I've seen, especially from Kyle Shanahan is if I know I'm going to keep losing my guys, I'm going to start training. And this is not, there's no way this is going to come out right, right? Old people who I know or are not going to leave, right? So give me Brian Greasy, give me Anthony Lynn, give me a lot of these guys who I can teach them.

25:57And I know that they're excellent technical coaches, but who are never going to get head coaching jobs again. That's just the reality of the situation. And I think there are probably two or three coaches that I can think of that are of that ilk, that if you were someone like Halfley, or you were someone like one of these defensive guys that you could hire and keep for a long time and they would be at least decently effective for you. Now, there's a lot of these coaches who've tried stuff like this and it's blown up in their face. Chip Kelly was supposed to be that. Chip Kelly was supposed to be that.

26:30Johnny Morton was supposed to be that in Detroit. There's a lot of those that haven't worked. I think that people are maybe looking under the wrong rock sometimes. And it's crazy to me how much just like feel and friendship and past history still plays into this and how critical of a hire it is. But I do think that if that's your plan B, it's not the worst plan B. I'll say that. All right. We're going to take a quick break and then come back with a few guys that might be on that next rung down.

27:01All right. So let's talk about the second tranche of coaches and candidates here that maybe aren't going to be on every interview list, but you think are going to have a pretty strong market as we get a little bit deeper into the season here? So it's really going to be, I mean, what's interesting about this list just this year is I kind of refocused for years. It was like, let me tell you about the best head coaches. And I think that that got morphed into something that I just couldn't hold on to and I couldn't control, which I didn't like. And now it's this year is let me tell you about the people who I am 80 to 90 % sure are going to interview.

27:38And that's market dependent. And it depends on a lot of things. So when people look at the list, which actually comes out today, which I was going to ask you when it was coming out, because I hadn't seen it. That's good. That's great. So perfect timing. But, you know, a lot of the pushback is going to be why is Steve Spagnuolo on this list? Well, because the Giants are hiring. You know, why is Eddie George on this list? Because the Titans are hiring. And I want to be able to nail every I want to like Mel Kuyper's big board. I want to get as many out of 100 as I possibly can. But if we're looking at the next step down, and these are true upwardly mobile head coaching candidates that I think are going to be interesting for people in the years to come.

28:16I think you have guys like Chris Shula. I think you have guys like Kelvin Shepard. I think my wild card, and we can get into the much younger crowd here if we want to. But Anthony Campanale from Jacksonville is really interesting to me too. And then I don't know if we want to break these up even further, but then there's there's some of the younger offensive guys that I'm very, very excited about. And I think that they're coming next. So let's talk about that group of defensive guys first, because I think that that collecting all of those together makes sense. I think with Chris Shula It's such an interesting situation Because in year one The defense wasn't great For a good chunk of the year Got better in the second half of the year And then had a bonkers performance Against the Vikings in the playoffs And then there was a snow game against the Eagles And so it was kind of hard to be like Alright, what are they really?

29:10And then you go into year two And he just has been fantastic And I think that some of the ideas They have defensively this is always going to be a place that is kind of a petri dish for offense or for football innovation in the NFL. That's just what it is, right? Like that's what Los Angeles under McVay is. And if you look at some of the things they've done with personnel usage, how they match personnel defensively, what types of decisions they make based on down and distance compared to some of the more normal influencing factors that typically define what you're going to do defensively. I like a lot of what they've done on that side.

29:42And I think Chris also, he's an easy communicator, right? Like he's somebody that it's, he's very comfortable up there. And I think in a lot of ways, like this is going to sound weird, but because this is not actually true, I think at least in terms of perception, this is one of those things where I think people are going to look at him getting the job because of the relationship that he had with Sean. And it almost is something he had to like shake in those first two years to be like, no, no, no. Like I'm actually really good at this. I didn't just get this because this is my best friend. And so I do think by this point, he has done a good job of shaking that a hundred percent.

30:20And you remember at the time when Raheem Morris left, I want to say Brandon Staley was back on the market at that point. And that would have been a really sensible plug and play move for McVay to bring him back. And Staley was a big part of that Superbowl team. And there's a lot of comfort level there and all the kind of the background in that Fangio scheme that he had, but Shula was up next. And you don't even just have to shake your friendship with McVay. I mean, you have to shake the fact that you're goddamn Don Shula's grandson. You know what I mean? Might have led with that. Yes. Right. And it's just like your grandfather is like the greatest head coach of all time.

30:56And so I think that there's something to the fact that he is immensely normal. He is wonderfully down to earth. And I think that he is one of those guys similar to Vance where you're just going to by no by virtue of just him being himself is going to win some of those big tense situations where it's a five hour meeting and dinner at the owner's house. I mean, this is a guy that's going to win in those situations. It's funny because he's been doing it for just as long as Jetsie Minter has in terms of being a defensive coordinator only. And he had even bigger jobs on NFL staffs than Jesse did before getting that defense coordinator job with the chargers.

31:37Is it strange that just at first glance, when I think about it, I look at Jesse and I'm like, he's, I think he's suited forward and ready. And with Chris, it's just like, I wonder if I want to see him do it for like a year or two longer. I don't know why I feel that way, but I kind of do. It doesn't, it's not really rooted in anything concrete. And it's so nebulous too. I mean, I would tend to agree with you because I think that what we've seen from Jesse is probably more immediately applicable. And with the Rams, while all these coaches have been successful to some degree, there's a matter of the talent funnel.

32:15There's what you walked into. And you could say it's the post Aaron Donald world and there were their own set of challenges there, and he has done well. And yes, he's masking like Emmanuel Forbes in the secondary, like, oh my God, when are we gonna realize that that's happening? But I think that I would tend to agree with you, But again, like so much of this comes down to relationships and comfort and who you're going to put on a staff, all that kind of stuff. And that's where I think that Chris probably has a little bit of a leg up just because you can you can look down the hallway and there's six guys there that could probably be your offensive coordinator, you know, which is going to be a little bit of a different situation.

32:53Calvin Shepard, I'm not surprised to hear that at all. My like only pushback to the Calvin Shepard thing is he's young and he's done this for a year. Yep. Like, but other than that, like this defense has still been like a pretty damn good defense this year. And we don't even talk about like some of the injuries that they've had to endure both before the season and during the season in the secondary. They're missing so many guys. And this is not an end all be all type thing, but they are fifth in defensive DVOA. but fifth yeah yeah and and i think him it was funny talking to kelvin shepherd before the season and i'm fine talking about this now because we're obviously so deep into the year but in talking to him about the philosophy he had for how he wanted the defense to be different he was talking about just okay we're going to be more flexible in terms of some of the things we can check in and out of because now we have players and linebackers specifically who have spent several years in the system.

33:51Like this is not new for anybody. And so we're going to build in some contingencies and some flexibilities based on personnel formation, all that kind of stuff. And we're going to diversify and disguise in a way that we did not when Aaron was here. And sometimes when you're listening to defensive coaches or any coach put forth their vision for their side of the ball and how it's going to be different than their predecessor, there's usually a lot of like, not a lot, but there's occasionally some that guy wasn't doing it right sort of vibes to it. And there's also a, I promise you, this is going to work.

34:26And in talking to him about it, it wasn't either of those things. It was a, like, I think this is just the next step in who we want to be. And we're going to see what happens. And I think that a lot of what he laid out in August ended up becoming true. Like that is what the lions defense feels like. And I think that's why even with some of the things they've had to endure, they've still been hard to deal with. So when I look at how his personality, his ability to communicate certain ideas, the way he carries himself and the results on his side of the ball, all of those boxes are checked. It's just one of those things where he's only done it for one year and he's 37 years old.

35:05I can say I heard this last week, I think, where let's say LSU whiffs on Lane Kiffin and something happens and Kiffin goes to Florida. Kelvin Shepard's getting like a first and second interview for that job. Like I think a lot of people within the coaching industry are really excited about him. And again, if you're an owner and you're doing the archetype bucket, why did we forget that the D 'Amico Ryans thing is still working? It's still great. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like, and yes, there's been some issues at offensive coordinator, uh, which is going to happen, but the former player model, the recent former player model, especially if these guys can understand what Brian Flores has gotten to, which is that you want this to be a self-called defense.

35:53You just want to put them in the position to be able to do it and to be able to confirm on the other end, Hey, that's what I'm seeing to go for it. and I think that Kelvin is one of those guys and just has just an immense amount of respect and even though the Aaron Glenn thing isn't really working out and I think that again that was one of the worst head coaching searches that I can remember in the Jets I think the whole thing was faulty but I think that I think people still want a piece of what's going on in Detroit and again I think it'll take a year but I think that he's going to be a part of that next wave This is a weird one And I doubt it would happen just based on people seeking out very different things in terms of the overall resume and archetype of coach that you want.

36:39The guy that you're replacing is often very different than the guy you just let go. But I think about him with like a veteran defense. And I think about him in a place like Pittsburgh with like some of the guys they have like that interests me if it were to go that way. I'm glad you brought that up because when I had written, and I never try to be that guy. I think it was after, it was like two weeks ago where I wrote, like, it might be time for Mike Tomlin to just think about doing the Sean Payton thing. And, you know, there was a lot of pushback, you know, from people saying how great he was and everything like that and who are you going to get to replace him.

37:15The Steelers formula has always been young, a little bit before they're ready, defensive coaches. That's been it. I mean, that's been the model. And what is this class more deep in than anything else? Right. It's just like every single one is like every single guy. And so to me, it's like if you are the Steelers and you talk about this mystical formula that leads with, you know, young, upcoming defensive coach and the lineage of that, you got like eight guys to pick from in this class. So I think that there was a little bit of like, you know, I, you know, I'm coming from a place, not of hot takes, but like, I think this makes some sense.

37:56All right. So Kelvin Shepard, Chris Shula, who was the third guy that you had mentioned in this group? And now I'm forgetting Anthony Campanelli from Jackson Campanelli. That, that one I have less of a feel for never had a conversation with him. I think that what they're doing right now, we talked about this on our preview show last week when we were talking about Colts Jags, the Jags are just a team where when you watch them play right now, you can tell the defense is well coached and it's not about results. Like it's about how the details in terms of how they play some of these coverages, the mix of some of the stuff that they're doing.

38:27Like I just am impressed by a guy that year one defensive coordinator on a staff full of year one guys and all of these positions, how well he has done immediately. I don't, I wish I had any more insight than that. I really don't. Is there anything outside of just the results you've seen so far? Are there results that people you've talked to have seen that has kind of pushed him to this place? Or is there something kind of specific about him that you think has accelerated the potential interest in him? I think interpersonally, he's phenomenal. I think that the way that he relates to people, I think that he would be a day one podium winner.

39:05Like he is very endearing. And I think that that's a good quality to have. Like Nick Sirianni, and this is something that I've started to value the older that I get, being a part of one of those coaching families that aren't like the Harbaugh's, but like your dad coached at Don Bosco for 20 years and your brother is like a D2 quarterbacks coach and your other brother is this. And I think that that matters in such a way because you just have a better feel for people, relating to people. There's a humility factor that I think is involved in a job like that where you just don't get it somewhere else.

39:45And again, he's another guy that I just think has the right personality, has the right temperament. How many years in a row would, at least for me, like you look at a guy like Devin Lloyd and you're just like, why isn't he awesome? Like he looks awesome. Every time I watch a game and I'm like, hold on, who the hell is that? And then now he's awesome. And like, yes, I mean, I think that the, the realization of talent on that roster is, is, is a lot to do with him. I mean, they carried that team for the first seven or eight weeks of the season. And this turnover thing that happened in green Bay last year is not a fluke because it's happening in Jacksonville this year.

40:22Yeah. I think that makes total sense. And I will say that based on my understanding of kind of how they landed on him in Jacksonville, there were a lot of, and we've seen this happen a ton, right? You have the first year play calling head coach that gets paired with the former head coach who is now a defensive coordinator. And there were a lot of guys in that mold this year. Lou Anaruma was on, but Lou is almost like that, right? He's like so established. So you had Matt Eberflus, you had Dennis Allen, you had guys like Lou who were like established defensive coordinators. And I think one of the reasons they went with Campanile is they wanted somebody who had just a little bit more juice, right?

40:57Somebody who was a little bit younger, who had a little bit more to him, a little more oomph. And so far, it's really hard to argue with the results that have come with that thought process and how they arrived at it. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And again, I think he's one of those, you know, you hate to say like culture creators, like I almost put him in the Sala bucket where you just know that wherever he's going to go, the defense is going to be fine and the vibes are going to be good. And in a lot of places that just that's really important because, again, You're walking into incredibly toxic situations, environments, cynicism, all that kind of stuff.

41:39And, and, and he's, he's got the right temperament for that job. I also think that's something where, you know, this is, it's a small thing, but obviously Green Bay is that's set it and forget it. You know, I think that's, we know what they are. Matt's been there since 2019 now. And even before that, there was a level of stability, consistency, all of that. I don't know how much you learn from how to rebuild an organization by spending five years with the Packers. You learn a lot in one year in Jacksonville. You learn a lot. I mean, this was ground up shit in terms of how they are trying to rebuild the way that that organization feels, functions on every single level.

42:16And so I do think that sort of experience is instructive for somebody who is going to take over a head coaching job at what is likely a bad spot. And political considerations, right? Where I think that there are people that you talk to who have coached in Jacksonville and they are now free to speak. And then there are people that you have talked to that have dealt with the Jacksonville thing that still might want to work in Jacksonville. And there's some things that some of those people can say that the other people can't say, but there are some just complicating factors to that job, unique to ownership that just don't exist in any other building, but will start to exist in a lot of these places because this new class of owner, I mean, look at Woody Johnson is having his lineage, his family start stepping into some of the, you know, day to day operations and not like right now, but these kids are coming through college.

43:07They're going to be involved. The Colts just had a passage from parent to children. And this is happening everywhere. And so to deal with that dynamic, I think, is really important because there are coaches who are really bad at it and there are coaches that are not so bad at it. And you have to get good at it. Do you have no choice? Let's talk about the young offensive coordinators, because this is obviously like a fascinating collection of guys. And I think there's probably something to be said about why this happened anyway. Right. And so Sando has written a little bit about this. And I think that anecdotally in both talking to the coordinators themselves and in talking to some of the head coaches who are making these decisions, why we're seeking this out.

43:52I think a lot of these guys who are 27, 28 years old, they're perfect as offensive coordinators for play calling head coaches because they are they got free time. Yeah, they are flexible. They understand the technology associated with the sport and with coaching in a way that older coaches might not. And so just the level of like efficiency with here's how we want like our databases to look. here's how I can easily teach the rest of the staff how we're going to do something like this. So having a 27, 28 year old offensive coordinator might sound insane, but for these situations specifically, I actually think there's a lot of merit to them.

44:34The question now becomes guys like Grant Udinski, Declan Doyle, that jump from that sort of job to being the head coach of an NFL team. what is that going to look like? It's going to be, you know, it will feel like you're falling out of an airplane, right? But some of those people will eventually catch on. And let's call it what it is. I mean, you had mentioned databasing. And a lot of that is, and thanks to Robert Solow for just bringing it up, it's sign stealing. I mean, it's helping legal sign stealing and giving your quarterback an edge. And for anybody who doesn't think that what Robert said wasn't very important, And I'm just going to tell you this sheer number of texts that I got after that of like, thank God he said something because quarterbacks like Carson Wentz, Trevor Lawrence, J.J.

45:21McCarthy, like a lot of quarterbacks now come out of college needing that kind of identification when they get to the line of scrimmage. Trevor Lawrence played for maybe the greatest sign stealer in the history of sign stealing, who's now the head coach at Oklahoma. And I don't know whether he benefited from it directly, but certainly during the program, that's a prevalent part of your day to day is what can I learn about the other guy before I snap the ball that's going to help me? And all this stuff, the coolest part about the NFL is that it's not illegal and it doesn't need to be. I don't know what was on the Spygate tapes, but is it any more nefarious than like these defensive coordinators are overworked?

46:05there's way too many guys coming in and out of the lineup. And so a lot of their hand signals and what they call things have to be the same from week to week. How smart are you and enterprising are you going to be to be able to database this stuff, to be able to match it up with the calls and to be able to hand this to your quarterback and say, Hey, check this out. Uh, because you know, this is what's coming if they say this, or if, if somebody does that, there's a backup quarterback that I know in the league that keeps getting jobs because he is so good at this. and just that's like his number one job.

46:35Okay. That's just part of it. And I think the reality is the more that these guys come out of the pipeline, not dependent on it, but it helps the more value that that's going to be in technology and looking at some of this stuff and figuring it out. But in terms of these younger guys, I have, um, you mentioned, uh, Grant Udinski, you mentioned Declan Doyle. I have Davis Webb, um, who I want to mention here. And then I have Nate Sheilhaus also from the Los Angeles Rams, who I think are guys that are. And I think that Nate, just by virtue of how this process shakes out, may be the first one that starts to get some interviews this year.

47:15I wouldn't be surprised if Nate got a head coaching interview this year. It's one of the runoff things from the Rooney Rule, right? I mean, it's just like that. It has an impact in quiet moments like this. And I think it doesn't often happen like this. I know of certain examples where a guy maybe wasn't sought or thought of as like one of the favorites to get a job. He got the job or he got the interview because the rule exists and surprised in that room. Nathan Schielhaus is going to be one of those people that if you get him in front of enough people, he's going to get enough promotions to get a head coaching job.

47:45I have that sense. I do, too. Has come through it the right way. Former college quarterback checks. You know, I mean, just a lot of the stuff that teams are looking for. And again, it's just you have to consider, is he ready for the job like this? But with Webb, what really interested me, I called Cliff Kingsbury because Cliff had coached Davis Webb at Texas Tech. And I was like, what do you think about him? I mean, people are already thinking about him as a head coaching candidate. And he said, Connor, if I had a son who was playing quarterback, I would do whatever I could to get him to play for Davis Webb.

48:21Period. He is the guy. And he said when we were when he was a freshman at Texas Tech, he would be watching every college game, every NFL game, and he would be designing plays in a notebook and he'd follow me around and show it to me like through the through the week. And he's 18 years old. This guy has been ready for this job since he's been 18 years old. Right. And what's interesting about Davis is there are a couple teams already that I've heard of Tennessee in particular that young and high ceiling is kind of maybe the model for them. Right. And Tennessee could end up getting scared and going with Mike McCarthy.

49:00I think that's always a possibility, but Davis Webb is a guy that I would look at for that Titans job because they're looking for young. They're looking for someone who can come in and just sort of grab that quarterback by the shoulder pads and get them going. And I think that he's a really interesting candidate in that regard. can we just have him be an offensive coordinator for two years first is that like a crazy thing to want well you should but it's not gonna you know that's the thing it's he maybe he you get him in a different spot and i would love him in a different spot but are we at the point where one of these guys is going to get hired this year i don't know the answer to that i think that there's two worlds there's a world where one team does it and then the dominoes break and everybody thinks that they're missing out on something or the first team to really get to the starting line of this goes, ah, I'm scared, Mike McCarthy.

49:48And then everybody goes in the other direction and it's a copycat league and I could see it happening either way. Here's the other part of this with the young guys that I don't mean to psychoanalyze anybody, but I do think it's worth at least bringing up Sean getting the job at 31. You don't think that all the things that Sean had to wrestle with in terms of his self-worth and how he tackled the job and how he interfaced with the job. Think about where you were at 29 and where you were at 35 and how different that is. I think both of us specifically can talk to like our very different sort of life that we lived in our late 20s compared to our four years ago.

50:29Yeah. Our mid thirties. Right. And so I do think that even with these guys, like there's undeniable appeal to them, but I feel like this is a job. It's one of the most high stress jobs in the world. And the, the understanding of yourself, your values, how grounded you are in that kind of stuff, I think is underrated. And when we think about how experience plays into this, right? I don't think it's about football acumen or about how much football you've seen. I think it's about what sort of foundation you have because the storm's coming. It doesn't matter who you are. Like there is going to be a stretch where you lose three out of five and people are calling for your job and you've got to deal with that.

51:17And I just think that that's one of the things that makes this an easier fit for people who are just a little bit deeper into their lives and have a little bit more awareness of like who they are and how they're going to deal with that type of shit. And I, I don't really think I've thought of it in those terms before, but with this group specifically, I keep coming back to it because it's like, I think all of them are promising. I think that there are some just time on task questions that I think are worth bringing up here. And that goes more, even more to like who they are as people than who they are as football coaches.

51:51So another coach that I didn't bring up that I did put on the list this year is Brad Edzik. And I was asking about Brad. So Brad's dad was John, who is the former Jets GM and is a respected personnel guy around the league. But I think Brad understands the blender that is the NFL. I mean, his dad was railroaded in a way in New York that I've never seen from somebody before. And just the complete chaos that stems from that. But I remember asking a couple people in Carolina because Brad was really bright on the analytics front. And when he was an underling for Dave, just kind of helping him understand tendencies and what they were doing and what they weren't doing and what they should be doing.

52:34And so he became so invaluable to Dave that Dave – I mean, again, Dave was not a slam dunk hire when that was made. He ended up being a great hire. But I think a lot of people wanted him to lean towards experience and and and some guys who have kind of had their feet under the ground. Brad was 32 or 33 at the time when he was the offensive coordinator of that and had to go into a room full of much older people and say, you know, hi, like, you know, my dad used to be a GM and I'm here to be your bosses now. But I think in talking to some people who were at those meetings and who have dealt with Brad, super impressed with the way that he was able to do it.

53:15He's an impressive guy. Really impressive guy. And so that's one of those guys that if, and again, it's like if you, it almost helps to have gone through that, to had a family member go through that, I think. And so some of these guys obviously don't have that. I mean, different people internalize different experiences like Bo Nix. I remember talking to him about how much it hurt him that Auburn basically cut him. And that's been this driving force behind him. Maybe Davis Webb being cut from three NFL teams is enough for him to understand the ups and downs and the failures and how things work in the NFL.

53:51I can't, I don't know that, but I know he's an incredibly intense person. And if I had to pick someone who was going to like literally just punch his way through a series of brick walls, I think that's probably going to be your, your guy out of all the young guns. It's funny that this is a weird place to land, but I think I actually do kind of believe it. A lot of these guys, and I'm not going to say specifics, but I think a couple of people that you've mentioned in this conversation, they're guys that are incredibly energetic, are very smart, and there's a level of curiosity they bring to the job that makes them well-suited to the role that they're currently in.

54:26There's also a level of being idealistic and hopeful with some of these younger guys, like you talk to them and like, there's an excitement and I think some of that is driven by that curiosity. And like, you can feel that I almost kind of want them to be beaten down by this world a little more than they have been in order to get them ready for this job. And I think Sean was kind of the same way. Right. And I think he's, he's such a supernova that it almost didn't really matter. But I think that some of these guys, like it's, there is like a, there's an optimism that kind of permeates everything that they do.

55:05And while I think that's a strength, it also, I think, can not necessarily set you up properly for what the job is going to demand of you. I think that that's probably true. But I also think so much of this is you're in the dark with like wet flint and you're trying to light a spark and the guys who were able to do it, like everything else, their quirks and their weaknesses become cute and endearing and interesting and not like the subject of like a 7 ,000 word Seth Wickersham story that's gonna make you look like a crazy person. You know what I mean? And I remember thinking about that with Ben McAdoo where like this guy was fumbling around just looking for a spark.

55:46And I think like a lot of the things about him, like the big suit and like how he dressed and how he acted. Like if the Giants had won that playoff game and had gone out the next year and done well, it's like, yeah, he like stares people down and it's like really cool. And it's like, no, he stares at you and it's strange. And I wanted to get out of that room because you just didn't win enough games. And so I think with a lot of these guys, it's just going to be, can you get out to like a four and two start? And then a lot of your flaws just end up getting buried in the trunk somewhere. I honestly do believe that.

56:21I mean, you're living through it right now with Ben Johnson, where I think that we were doing a show the other day and we went back and we took that Matt LaFleur clip and we played like some music from The Shining behind it. And it sounds a lot different than, you know, and it could have been that way. Like, let's say they go out and they get the absolute shit beaten out of them in green Bay. It's different, right? But the fact that he pushed the floor to the very brink of that, and it, you know, quarterback makes an iffy decision at the last minute, throws the ball late, or else you would have gone into overtime.

56:56You know, all the things that make Ben Johnson, Ben Johnson are very endearing right now, down to ripping his shirt off, you know, uh, we've, we've arrived there, but, uh, you know, I'm sure everybody in Chicago is like crossing their fingers and hoping that they got there because if they didn't, this would have been a runaway train in the other direction very quickly. It's also so funny. Just, I mean, you listen to that press conference and then you look at how he presents himself in those situations now. And it's different. Like it's, you can feel the difference in tone. He was so good after the Green Bay loss.

57:28He was so good because it went from, and the fact that you can tell how intelligent he is with how quickly he's gone through this cycle where it's like, he arrived at the press conference in Chicago being like, people think I'm not interesting. Let me be interesting. And then he tried that, didn't quite work. And then you get like a couple of weeks into the season and there's like procedural errors. And then you're like, I'm a genius and I don't have to deal with this shit. And I don't wanna, I'm gonna shut down questions. And now we're all the way back to, let me just be a normal person in the human race and answer questions.

58:00And the Green Bay press conference, I thought was unbelievable. He was so good in that moment. And I was like, oh, he's got it. Like he's figuring this thing out. We're going to take one more quick break and then come back and just do a little bit like rapid fire with maybe four or five other names that people should keep an eye on.

58:18We don't spend a ton of time on this next group, but I think if you want to just mention four or five other names that you think are going to be guys who get at least one interview, maybe multiple interviews as part of this cycle, who are the ones that you would throw out there? So there's, this is tough, right? Because this is where we get into your Arthur Smiths of the world, your Matt Nagy's of the world, your top two college coaches that are going to possibly be of NFL interest. These interviews are going to be so clandestine and like, and so hidden that we might not even know about them until August, right?

58:53And I'm talking about Marcus Freeman and maybe Steve Sarkeesian, who I think are really the two names left that might be of interest on the professional level. I don't know if this is going to happen, but this is something that I hope is going to happen. And I'm an idealist. And so I just want to bring it up in this particular case. As I have Frank Ross from the Texans on my list, and I talked to Frank for a story. He's the Texan special teams coordinator. Okay. I talked to Frank for a cover story that I did a couple of weeks ago, and we were going through all this stuff and he's just blowing my mind with how intelligent he is.

59:30And we're talking about how one of my great crusades in all of this, I mean, this list started in 2018, was that Dave Tobe should have been a head coach by now. That was my great crusade. And we were kind of commiserating over this. And Frank said, you know, what's awesome about right now is that this entire league goes batshit nuts. And the first eight weeks of the season, you know, coaches are studying tape more. We've refined how to block kicks. Uh, we know how to do it better. Uh, you know, there's all these new kickoff rules that make us a true third phase of the game. This is not a bullshit hire anymore.

1:00:07And it was for a long time. And now it's going to separate those of us who know what we're doing and we're excellent coaches versus the people who are like, you know, I went to college with the head coach and you know, there's nowhere else to put me on the staff. And so here, just kick it out of the back of the end zone every week. Okay, pal. And so Frank to me is that guy. And does, did Joe judge ruin it for everybody forever? I don't know. But I think that Frank, I think in a couple of years, someone like Chris Banjo with the jets, I think Matt Daniels with the Vikings, these are guys who are just, cause Matt has a lot to do with Brian Flores and, you know, kind of how good that, that, that turnover mentality is.

1:00:53he helps on the defensive side of the ball. And I think a lot of these guys help on other sides of the ball. You know, I don't know. Is, is that something that maybe one team takes a step forward and says, you know what? These guys are just good coaches and I'm going to take the same risk that I'm going to take with a defensive coordinator with one of these guys, but at least we're going to know the rules. We're not going to look sloppy. Um, we're going to be able to win in unconventional ways. And, and I don't know that maybe that's my idealism hope, but this has been my crusade for almost a decade now.

1:01:22So I'll be curious to see when the next guy gets a shot, because like whatever you think about John Harbaugh now, and I'm sure that some of the luster has been lost based on how this season has gone and some growing frustration. It has been an unmitigated, smashing success. Yeah. John Harbaugh's tenure with the Baltimore Ravens. It's remarkable how good he's been. And the fact that we have not sought that out again, other than the Joe Judge thing is, and I guess Jason Garrett is your offensive coordinator. So yeah, that's, that's the problem there, right? I mean, and that, and obviously that gets down to it with, with John specifically.

1:01:58I think that Baltimore has done as good a job as any franchise in the NFL over the last decade at cycling through coordinators when needed based on what was necessary for their teams. Yes. Like this, these are our players. This is what we need to do. Well, these are the guys who can allow us to do well. I think that they've consistently done a phenomenal job with that. My, my concern is with the special teams guys, if you don't do that, you're not going to be successful. And so you're just building in layers of difficulty because instead of hiring one coordinator correctly, you need to hire two coordinators correctly.

1:02:36And that just becomes harder to do. And so I think the bar is higher, but if you find the right guy who's in tune with the right coaches, who needs to hire, where he needs to look for those guys, it absolutely can still succeed. Frank was interesting because, so the rule change comes down and he's kind of walking me through like minute by minute what's going on. And so the kickoff rule changes, there's no one at the practice facility. He grabs his assistant special teams coach and then like another guy. And he's like, we have to go down on the field immediately. Cause, and then he, the three of them just start pantomiming live kickoffs because they can't be in contact with the players.

1:03:11They don't know what's going on. And then the players get in, in like three weeks and he has this notebook and he's walking around and he's like, no one knows what this is going to look like, but legitimately down to like, he's going up to like the third string linebacker who might be on kickoff return and being like, when you're standing here, like, where do you want your butt facing? Like what's comfortable for you? Like, do you want your butt over here or do you want your butt over here. And it's like, he has this living, breathing document that is just purely based on preferences that his players have that put them in positions to be comfortable.

1:03:46And I mean, we're looking at the baseline thing underneath it all is how you can deliver that on a mass scale. And can you deliver to that on a mass scale? And I think that Frank is one of those guys that really interests me is like, could you do it? I think you could do it. I don't know. I think that, and again, there's a lot of, you know, we can talk about because we had what Adam Stenovich is another interesting name and he interviewed for the Bears job last year. And while I think that was a little bit of gamesmanship with Chicago, I think that he has a lot to do with the run game in green Bay.

1:04:18And I think he will be an interesting guy. Um, again, you have your Naggies, you have your Robert Salas of the world that are, are going to be there. Um, Clayton Adams is another name that I think in another year is probably going to be there and be ready. I 100 % agree with that. I mean, it's what he's done in each of his last two stops is undeniable in the roles that he has felt undeniable. And to see what, how Arizona's run game fell apart when he left, it's just, it's obvious, right? And so I think that a lot, you know, again, it gets back to what we were talking about at the beginning. This is a minefield of a coaching search.

1:04:55And if you're good at it, you're going to find the right person that fits you and fits your organization. Um, but why wouldn't you at least like, this is the year to interview college guys. If you're going to want to interview college guys, and this is the year to interview special teams guys, if you're going to want to do it, because again, it's like, there's no Vrabel here. There's no guy that's like, okay, that's an automatic. Yes. And we're going to be fine. Chris Banjo checks two boxes. I mean, he has the best special teams unit in the league right now, by far, right? Like by far. and he's a former player.

1:05:26So if you want to go like the former recent player route, he's doing it on multiple different levels. And so that's interesting. The last thing I'll ask you, you mentioned that you thought McCarthy was a fit for one specific job. What is that one specific job? I think if the Titans end up getting nervous. So what I've heard from early on in the Titan search is that they want someone young. They want someone who's going to be able to connect with Cam. I think that they can, And you can ride the same path that you rode with Brian Callahan and get to a different result. But I do think if they get scared, Mike McCarthy is probably there.

1:06:04And that's one of those hires that would be at least popular in the beginning with the fan base. And I don't think he works with Cam as a player, personally. I don't think that they're going to—what Mike likes to do offensively and what Cam likes to do offensively. Like I think Cam needs someone who's going to put him into a structure that accentuates his mobility, does a lot of those things. Mike is not necessarily that guy, but Mike's a good coach. And so I think what Tennessee might just need right now is a good coach. And there's, you know, you have the stadium opening next year, which is a huge consideration.

1:06:39It's part of the reason that Callahan got run out of there, right? And so you might just need that name to put on top of the masthead. You know what I mean? And that could be the reality of the situation. Two names that you did not mention that I just want to throw out there. Joe Brady has been somebody that's been brought up for multiple years. Like where are we at with Joe Brady's candidacy on December 10th? It's so crazy, right? I mean, he's on the list and it's like when you interview with people, it's like interview people about Joe. It's like Joe could be the first head coach hired in this cycle.

1:07:11And Joe could not be the offensive coordinator by the time that the bills get to the playoffs. Like we just, you just don't know. Right. And I think that's the nature of this group. Yeah. Yeah. For the offensive coaches. And what I think that understanding what Joe is doing at a fundamental level and the way that they built the offense that they did is really smart. He's a defend all blades of grass guy. He is understanding of Alan as this, you know, glowing entity and how everything is supposed to orbit around him. And so it's almost impossible for him to go out and to produce like a structure and say, here's my offense.

1:07:49But I think that the the way that he got that running game effective enough where Allen doesn't have to do it, he's still going to do it. But I think that that's probably his biggest calling card for this job. But to say that it's been flawless would would be a lie to say that there's still not another level that Allen could go, I think, is also a lie. So I think that, you know, he's, he's a really interesting name. Now, if Jacksonville had shaken out a little bit differently, I think that Joe might be down there right now. And so again, I think he's ready. I think he interviews well. And this Buffalo job is a big job, right?

1:08:26So I think he will probably maybe get one. But again, like, I think that this season could have dovetailed in a way where he may not have been calling the place anymore. You know what I mean? It's the craziest part. There are guys who like, I think their fan bases want them fired. And I think there's a chance that their head coach is at the end of the road, which is hilarious, but this is the nature of the beast. So weird. Connor or always appreciate it, sir. Please tell people where they can check out both your list that just got published today and everything else that you guys are doing over at the MQB.

1:08:57Oh man. SI.com slash MMQB. And, and just, you know, subscribe to a goddamn magazine people. Like this is, uh, this is my number one pitch. Like this is, I know I said before the show, I have a book buying and physical media addiction, but it's just the best just to always have something interesting laying around your house to pick up and read that isn't a phone screen. You should really do it. It's great. Our prices are phenomenal. Five to six magazines still delivered to my home. Hell yeah. Um, and I get a physical newspaper delivered to my home three times a week. Yeah. I go to the smoke shop every week and get the Sunday Times it's the best I don't know how I could live without it I need to hold it in my hands alright coming from the two oldest millennials in America thank you guys very much for listening sincerely appreciate it we will be back tomorrow with the week 15 preview a lot of fun stuff on that one very excited to dig into the Philip Rivers of it all which we have not talked about in this podcast Holy shit.

1:10:02That's a real thing that's happening. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.