How "all in" is too far all in?

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1:54Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's another Mailbag Monday. Really enjoyed this one. A lot of good questions. A lot of good big picture questions. Chatting about the player movement we've seen this offseason. Why we're seeing that. Undervalued positions. Just a ton of fun stuff. With me, Derek, and our producer, Michael Bell, are queuing up the questions. So let's get to that conversation right now.

2:25Robert Mays: Time for another Mailbag Monday here on the Athletic Football Show. Nice collection of questions today. A lot of stuff that was worth chewing on as we were prepping for this thing. Let's get to it. We got a bunch of them to work through here. All right. Club 8D gets us going. Club says, looking at the moves the Rams have made to go all in, where is the line for going all in? Say tomorrow the Rams traded two first-round picks for Max Crosby. Is that mortgaging the future too much? Stafford only has one or two years left. Shouldn't the Rams go full F them picks and cap space and actually go all in?

2:59Go sign some guys to add more depth. Move cap into the future to make it work. Along this line of thinking, what in your mind is the correct level of aggressiveness a team should have when in a window of contention? What factors play into the calculus? How aggressive should teams like the Ravens, Bills, Bengals, or Cowboys even be? I also wanted to shout out Witness Gritness, who had a very similar question, but focused specifically on his team, the Detroit Lions, who I think are a worthy part of this conversation too. So what do we think here, Robert?

3:25Robert Mays: I think trading two more first round picks for Max Crosby is going a little bit too much all in. That's the first thing that I would say. There is a balance here. And if you look at the Miles Garrett trade, I mean, and so the McDuffie trade happens, they trade a first round pick. They still have one as they're making that trade. I think that's an important consideration, which I want to talk about that a little bit later, but they only traded away one first round pick to get Miles Garrett. And so they still have a first round pick in the 2028 draft, 2029 draft moving forward. I still think you need to offset the aggressiveness with making sure you still have a decent amount of picks.

3:58Robert Mays: And the Rams have actually done a very good job of this. Even as the Rams traded away all those first round picks over the years, they still made between nine and 10 picks a year pretty often because they had a bunch of third round picks, a bunch of fourth round picks. So I think that's a balance that's necessary. I think there are a lot of different considerations here, a lot of questions here. I think the most important one before I see what Derek thinks about this, where in the window are you? Realistically, where in the window are you? And with the Rams, they're obviously at the end of one.

4:31Robert Mays: By doing this, you're not potentially sacrificing good years of Matthew Stafford's prime. Matthew Stafford's career is going to be over by the time you're really paying the tax for this. If you're the Ravens, if you're the Bills, if you're the Bengals, if you trade away multiple first-round picks for a short-term push, and that short-term push doesn't work out, then you're harming your chances of properly competing three or four years from now when those quarterbacks are still in their prime. And so if the window is truly closing, push it all in, man, who cares? Like if you don't set up Ty Simpson for success, but you have a Super Bowl, I think that's something you can live with.

5:08Robert Mays: But knowing you're not giving yourself the best possible chance to win a title three years from now with Josh Allen, I can understand being a little bit more hesitant about something like that. And I do think the Rams are in a unique position of being all in. Like a lot of those teams, the Bengals, the Ravens, the Cowboys teams that, you know, in theory, if they wanted to do it, they could or you could get why they would do it. None of them were close last year. Like none of them were close. And some of them are now operating with first year head coaches in the way that the Ravens are, whereas the Rams are kind of always close.

5:36And I think that you can make an argument that they had the best roster in the NFL last year and just, you know, played a very close series against the eventual Super Bowl champions. And so I think them being a team that is more willing to do it makes sense. I think you bring up a really good point, too, with them having the extra first round pick. And so, yes, they're trading away all these these first round picks. But because they had acquired another one, that feels less insane. And they still have some draft operas to go. They're also with this version of the team. Some of the financial off ramps are already built in, right?

6:08Like Devontae Adams and Matthew Stafford are only going to be on this team for so long. whereas if you are then going and trading a bunch of picks for whether it would have been like a Micah Parsons type of guy or Max Crosby or whatever these guys are theoretically like could be on the books for even longer and I think that starts to pinch you a little bit and so for as much as it feels like the Rams went all in and they definitely are their future doesn't feel like that strapped like it's definitely you know more strapped than whatever your base resources would be but it doesn't feel like they've completely cut themselves off it's also important

6:38Robert Mays: with the Rams, there's a pivot point here. They haven't committed to a lot of their worthwhile extensions. We talked about this a lot. If you look at the amount of free agents they have hitting the market next year, it's a lot of guys who are going to get paid. And so if they want to pivot from being a more kind of top-to-bottom, deeper team like they've been over the last couple of years because they've hit on so many of these draft picks and they want to be more top-heavy and keep some of these really, really expensive guys and have that be the team build that they chase they can do that like they are at a place where they can kind of take either road and i think that flexibility is one of the reasons they're afforded this opportunity i'll say this about two of the teams that club 8d there from discord mentioned but with both the bangles and the cowboys i think we're seeing the version of all in that those teams are willing to embrace like the dexter lawrence trade that's as all in as the Bengals are going to be.

7:35Robert Mays: And I actually commend them for it because even if Joe Burrow is still a relatively young player and you're going to have Joe Burrow hopefully for the next 10 years as the Bengals quarterback, I also think this version of the team where the offense has both of those receivers, both of those receivers definitively in their primes, that position is different than it is with quarterback. You're not going to have Jamar Chase playing at this level for the next 10 years as much as you may want him to be. And so really trying to maximize this specific window with the offense playing at this sort of level, I completely understand that.

8:06Robert Mays: And I commend them for it. Like, I think that them making the Dexter Lawrence trade, it's kind of irresponsible in a way I like seeing the Bengals be. And with Dallas, the Cowboys have had their own version of that sort of offseason. Like, if you look at what Dallas did, I know they traded away Micah Parsons, but then they immediately traded for Quinnen Williams. Like, that is an aggressive move. The amount of money the Cowboys have moved around this offseason, they zeroed out the DAC contract, They zeroed out the CD contract. They're second in the NFL this year in cash spending. And that's only because the Texans have given extensions to two edge rushers.

8:40Robert Mays: That's why the Texans are up near the top of that list. Dallas is really doing its version of let's try to get this thing over the finish line. And so, again, I do commend both of those teams for being a little bit more aggressive than we've seen in years past. And if I'm going to criticize them for that, which I absolutely have, I want to give them credit for showing a little bit more ambition in the way that they have this spring. and we actually should think about it in the way that you just because we're talking we started this with the Rams right and then we're obviously talking about the Bengals I think we have to go into those discussions knowing that the ceiling for whatever all in really means is just different for those franchises and so we kind of have to do the calculations a little bit differently so I think that's a good point and then again the Ravens the Ravens to me one because it's you know new coaching regime I think that that puts you in a tricky spot but then they've just got a bunch of contracts that I think are in weird spots like Lamar's cap hit is insane right now Matt Abike I think because we don't know his health it's like a question of what are they going to do with him in the next year or two say Flowers his cap number is really high right now they could get him on like an extension and see what how that goes like they've just got they're just in a weird place financially that it's more like what are they going to do with this next 18 months of team building that I it doesn't feel like they should be a team that goes super all in even though obviously they tried to and you know tried to do the Max Crosby thing and it would have been fine I think I understand how that ended up getting walked back.

9:59Robert Mays: I also just think that if you're a team that wants to be consistently competitive, it's really hard to trade away a bunch of first round picks and be consistently competitive. Like the financial element of this and the draft capital element of this are two different conversations to me. I think teams, if your owner is willing to spend the money, just keep spending. Just keep spending. Because even in the worst case scenarios, we've seen what that downturn financially looks like. It's what the Saints have had to do over the last couple of years. and while the money aspect of it is bad, it's not that bad.

10:29Robert Mays: Like you can dig out of that hole really as quickly as one year if you want to. The Dolphins are hopefully going to be in that position. Like they're going to have to eat some of the two a deal next year, but for the most part, they've taken most of their financial medicine in 2026. You can get out of that quickly. It's when you start trading away a ton of draft capital that I think that level of aggressiveness can linger in a bad way. And so we talked about the Rams offsetting the first round draft pick trades with a lot of mid-round trades. Other teams have done the same thing. The Eagles traded for A.J.

11:01Robert Mays: Brown. They had extra first round picks in that draft. And so I just think if you're going to trade away draft picks and be really aggressive with it, where are you trying to offset that a little bit to make sure you're making the requisite amount of picks over a multi-year span so you're not completely depleting your chances of being competitive three, four years from now? Yeah. And the last thing I'll say as as far as the Rams being, again, a unique case, we can say that they've been lucky with how many of their second through fifth round picks have hit for them. But on offense, I don't think it's fully luck.

11:31Right. Like, I think because you have McVay and there's such a clear identity and vision for what the offense wants to be, it makes it easier to find Puka Nakua or Kyron Williams or all these tight ends that they've got. or I mean you know some of their offensive linemen are free agent like lower level free agents that they brought in but it's also like Alaric Jackson was an undrafted free agent uh Warren McClendon was a fifth round pick like they just understand guys who can they don't need to be superstars but if we can go pay for the one or two superstars like a Matthew Stafford and Devante Adams we know how to find contributors in a way that again there's a little bit of draft luck but it does feel like they are just better at that and have a clear vision for that than most other teams I

12:09Robert Mays: gets a really important point because i think shanahan is also a good example of this where they've been able to skimp on certain positions like they i think about it one of the points i was going to make here is i don't think you should be making these sorts of trades especially with first round picks if your quarterback situation isn't settled one of the reasons the rams can do this is because they drafted ty simpson you have to if you need those first round picks if you're going to need a quarterback at any point in the next couple years and i kind of think the same thing about like truly premium positions right like trading away a first round picks when you are going to have a needed tackle over the next couple of years.

12:40Robert Mays: That can be dicey. Well, if you're a team that can get by with a fourth or fifth round pick at offensive tackle because of your offensive ecosystem, your play caller, your offensive line coach, you're able to be a little bit more aggressive in what you can do with some of those draft picks. A lot of teams couldn't be competitive with, and Colt McKibbin has gotten much, much better, but with that sort of plan at one of your tackle spots, it's hard to do. And I think both the Rams and the Niners have really shown an ability to make the most out of not huge investments at really important positions.

13:13Robert Mays: So you can use those massive assets to be a little bit more aggressive because you can cheap out in ways that other teams might not be able to. The Eagles can't do that. The Eagles can't do that offensively. They need stars everywhere. They need stars everywhere. And their version of fudging it and getting by is what they do with the cap. Whereas, you know, the Rams do some of that. But it is part of just the way that they can draft on offense is just a little bit different than some guys. Let's get to the next one. All right. The next one comes to us from Switch. You guys have mentioned in previous pods that free agency doesn't really seem to be a way to reliably get good talent anymore due to teams locking up their best guys ahead of time.

13:51As such, in addition to the draft, you've mentioned that trading premium picks for superstars or at least star level talent would become more frequent. and we've seen it happen now with guys like Micah Parsons, Dexter Lawrence, Trent McDuffie, and recently Miles Garrett and A.J. Brown getting dealt for premium picks. Is this an actual trend, or is it simply one of those things that happens irregularly due to a combination of circumstance and player availability, and we're just seeing a blip in how teams go about their business? Derek, you're up first on this one. I think both are true. I will say this cycle was a lot.

14:22Like, getting this many superstar trades in one cycle, and even if you want to, you know, rope in the kind of Max Crosby trade, kind of not actually happening thing. I think there was clearly an appetite for a lot of this. The part of it that does feel a little bit circumstance driven, two of these were Rams trades. And we already know that this is a team that has an appetite for this, even if like before we consider that this is potentially a league wide trend, like they're just a little bit different. And then one of the other ones was AJ Brown, where I think we've known that for the last year or so, there's been a lot of contention, there's been all that stuff.

14:52So it does feel a little bit like this year specifically, right place, right time. And I will say with this draft specifically, it didn't feel like there were that many superstar talents that teams were just waiting on and needed to pick it like third or fourth overall and wouldn't want to trade up to that spot. They'd rather go get the veteran, even if it's going to be expensive. And so there is a little bit of right place, right time. But generally, I think we do see that it's hard to get this caliber of player, a Trent McDuffie caliber player, a Dexter Lawrence caliber player in free agency.

15:23Like those guys just don't really hit the market anymore you can find good b - level players b-level players the true field tilters you got to give up draft capital for them whether it's getting the veterans or trading up to second or third overall to get like a will anderson like it that that kind of is the premium for those spots

15:39Robert Mays: i think if we look back at history we probably overstating how many superstar players ended up hitting free agency even in a different era but i think it's even more pronounced now because of just how much the cap is exploding and the exploding cap and just how much financial flexibility and then you combine that with teams being more creative in how they're manipulating the cap, you can really afford who you want to. And I think that impacts things on two different fronts. It impacts things because you can keep all the players you want, and so fewer guys hit free agency. But it also means you have the flexibility to absorb players with these sorts of massive contracts.

16:14Robert Mays: One of the reasons that you don't see a ton of expensive veteran player movement in previous eras is that teams just couldn't afford these sorts of players if they weren't already part of the plan. Now you can do whatever you want. Like you can wave a magic wand for the most part and you can create the space that you need to, or you already have it because the cap has exploded so much that you can absorb these players pretty consistently. So I think that's part of it. I think GMs are just more aggressive now. And I think it's a combination of how we've seen that aggression play out. Like the Rams have done it a few times and succeeded.

16:48Robert Mays: The Eagles won a Super Bowl being hyper aggressive and trading for AJ Brown. So I think there's just a new breed of GM that's kind of willing to embrace that level of risk because we've shown that it consistently works independent of sort of the systemic reasons this is happening. And I also think that there are a couple, there's like market-driven forces as part of this as well. Like what's happened at Receiver and Edge specifically, those markets have exploded at such a rate that I can understand looking at some of those contracts and just being like, I can't justify this. Like, I can't pay one player$45 million and forego the opportunity cost of that amount of money and two first-round picks.

17:33Robert Mays: It's just not worth it to me. And I think that's what the Cowboys said with Micah Parsons. And we can go back and forth about whether that's right, but I think some teams are landing there. And the other part of it is that, while I think a lot of teams are embracing their short windows and their aggressiveness to make these moves, I think that on the other side of these trades, you have GMs that also understand their windows and the fact that this is worth it for me. Like two sides can have different competing motivations and different timelines that make these trades make sense. I think the Miles Garrett trade is an example of that.

18:04Robert Mays: And I also feel like with some of these moves, you also have front offices that have gotten so much smarter about aging curbs, right? And so or just positional stuff. like Trent McDuffie getting$30 million a year in a first round pick. That's an incredible amount of capital for the chiefs. Like if you're the Rams, I understand wanting to maximize your window. If you're the chiefs, I understand looking at that and saying, we can't turn this down. Like that first round pick and$30 million a year is Trent McDuffie for Mansour Delane, Kenneth Walker, and Elohi Gilman. And that's a pretty good way to look at it, especially too, especially in the McDuffie case specifically, we've talked about this a lot.

18:45He was clearly a special nickel player, but they had just moved their defense to move out of that. And Delane is probably going to play outside where McDuffie played. I think taking a corner at sixth overall, as good as I think Delane is a pretty good player. I don't think it's that crazy that he plays as good as McDuffie did on the outside. Like, maybe not year one, obviously, but if you get that year two on top of the savings, on top of having Kenneth Walker on the roster, it's like you start to understand why teams are willing to do this. I think I am a little bit shocked we see it as much as we do with edge rushers, just because I do think outside of quarterback and tackle, those are some of the hardest positions to find.

19:18But teams are more willing to move on from edge, in part because quarterback and then tackle, even though you have two of them, they are not really squad positions. You have your guys on the field who are going to play. Whereas at least with edge rushers, even if there's a ton of value in having an ace, obviously, you also can build a pretty good room of just four kind of nice guys in a way that that's just not as true of tackle or quarterback, obviously.

19:43Robert Mays: 100%. We're going to talk about this a little bit later with positions that we feel like are slightly undervalued compared to the market. And I think when you compare some of those positions, even like offensive tackle to what edge rushers are making right now, there is a massive gap between how those positions are compensated. And I mean, the arms race with receivers and edges specifically happens so quickly and so dramatically that I think that's one of the reasons. And then with edges, the scarcity is going to be there, right? Like the scarcity is absolutely going to be there with edges. Those guys are hard to find when you're looking for like the true tippy, tippy top guys.

20:14Robert Mays: You're mostly finding those guys in the first round at receiver. We have a decent supply pretty much every single year. And so there was always in my mind going to be a tipping point of when teams were just going to say, no, thank you. Like I just can't justify if you're going to give me a first round pick for this guy and I have to pay him$40 million a year, especially a guy on like a third contract like A.J. Brown with potential physical issues that might be creeping up over the next couple years I get the Eagles independent of how happy or unhappy he is being like this is in our long-term best interest like he's a really good player but I still feel like we have to do this in this moment all right what's the next one the next one is from Macy Carwin Macy says as an avid NFL and NBA fan I've always found it interesting that the two leagues do the draft and free agency in different orders.

21:03In my mind, the NBA's draft first, free agency second approach makes more sense than the NFL's. I think acquiring players via free agency is more predictable and controllable than who will be available in the draft. Is this something you guys have considered? And what would the potential pros and cons be if the NFL were to switch its order?

21:20Robert Mays: Robert, you take this one first. I absolutely have considered it. It is something I've thought about and talked about in the past. And Kevin Seifert actually did a really good story about this for ESPN. I think it was like four years ago. And the history of it dates back to the pre-free agency era in the NFL, like before 1993, when we actually had free agency, they had something in the previous, I think, three to four years that they called plan B, which was kind of like a precursor to true free agency. And you got to protect a certain number of players on your roster each year. And then the guys who were more fringe guys ended up hitting like a de facto free agency.

21:56Robert Mays: And the players as part of that system wanted to know where they were going as soon as possible. And so that started like almost immediately after the season ended. And so that was part of why that happened and then the draft happened. And when you go back to the 90s, they're just, it was harder to prepare for the draft in the 90s. You didn't have as much information. The staffs were considerably smaller. And so people wanted more time to prepare for the draft. And that's why the draft happened in late April and the veteran movement happened much sooner. Now, there's really no reason for it to be this way.

22:31Robert Mays: It's just kind of how they always did it. I think you could make a really serious argument that we're in a spot where front offices have gotten so much bigger and processes have gotten so much more streamlined that you could have the draft on April 1st if you needed to. I think that absolutely could happen. And so would you want to do free agency after that? I think there are reasons in terms of being in the consciousness that this works out for the NFL, because by going, you have the combine right after the Super Bowl, essentially. So it's a draft event. So you're wetting people's interests and appetites for the draft.

23:03Robert Mays: But then you have free agency. So you own that two weeks and then the draft has a month long news cycle. So you really do own the entire conversation all the way through May 1st until the NBA playoffs are really ramping up. Baseball hasn't started that. So I think there's a lot of different competing forces. we can talk about how it would influence the choices made in free agency or the draft but Derek I'm curious of what are your thoughts about just how this is set up and what whether you think this is the right way to approach it well so that's actually where my mind went was like who in terms of decision making who does this affect and like what kinds of free agents does this affect because I think if the draft were to be first I think it would be a little bit easier in my mind for teams to just be like who is the best player that I can get and then when we get to free agency we'll fill in whatever other spots we need because how often do you know teams don't want to draft for need but ultimately if free agency is first you end up with two holes on your roster where you're like I guess we just need a tight end and we've got to take one or I guess we just need a defensive tackle so we've got to take one whereas I think if you have draft first it's easier to be like we think this guy's a star we'll just take him and we'll fill out the other rest of the stuff.

24:12And then that got me thinking of like, well, which kinds of veterans does that hurt? Because on one hand, you're going to have more of these going into free agency, some more of these starting spots like already filled, right? Like with first round picks and stuff like that. But I still think that at the top of the free agent market, because those guys are also starters, I almost wonder if there's even more competition for those guys, because now there's a desperation. Now it's like, I can't fill that in the draft. Now I have to pay you. And so I think there actually might be more competition for like the top 20 of free agents and then i actually think the mid-tier guys and below tier guys maybe get hurt because maybe teams in the third round were like ah we took a receiver we don't need to sign a guy now you know what i mean and so that to me is i wonder just which kinds of free agents it hurts or helps i think that's exactly right i

24:57Robert Mays: think that the top of the market especially in certain years where there's scarcity in the free agent pool like i always think of bellers think of like an auction fantasy draft like the guys who go way higher than they should are the last player in a certain tier at a position. And so if you're sitting there and you need a running back in this year's free agent class, the draft has already happened. And let's just say for argument's sake, like Travis H. Han has already been signed and Kenneth Walker is the last guy. Then we get to a place where you get really desperate to pump up the value of those guys.

25:30Robert Mays: I think that would happen. But I think the guys in the second and third tier players, there isn't as much interest because some of these holes have been filled. The argument you mentioned about best player available, coaches have said that. Kyle Shanahan was quoted being like, I think that would happen if we did this. I think that's the idealized version of it. Like they wouldn't actually arrive there. I think in reality, if you were still looking at a depth chart with all of these empty spots on it, you'd still probably draft for need to a decent extent. I think that would likely happen a little bit more.

26:04Robert Mays: And if you did that, then I think even more veteran salaries as part of this would get depressed because you would just have less glaring needs after the draft was over. Just because I think by like human nature and the way that we do this, you would still draft for need to a certain extent. And it would make free agency a little bit less important when it came to filling some of those holes. I think you would definitely still draft for need. It's just at least to me, I think you would go into the draft knowing that we have three or four spots that are wide open, where sometimes you get to the free agency and you just get stuck and it's like, shit, we don't have a right tackle at all.

26:39We have we have to take one. Whereas I think if you're going in with three clear needs, it's a little bit easier to find whatever the balance is between drafting for need and being like that guy's a star. Let's just take him.

26:50Robert Mays: I'll say overall, I think if we switch the order, I honestly think it would have less of an impact than it might seem at first glance, because I do think that the two sides have gotten really good at talking to each other. that we see this we see certain positions get pumped up in free agency because even if you don't know how the draft is going to go the amount of modeling the amount of like tiering like what percentage chance is this guy going to be available by the time we pick how many guys in this tier a player are there before we get to our pick I think we've gotten good enough at that to know that there's a reason that Kenneth Walker gets 14 million dollars a year in free agency and it's because we know there are no running backs available in that year's draft so I do think that they talk to each other often enough that they've influenced one another enough that if we did switch them it wouldn't be some seismic shift where you would just see the thought process completely change the last thing i'll ask do you think we would get more or less trades like in the first round like because i do think some trades are driven by desperation some trades are obviously driven by like i want to take will anderson at third overall and so there is like some different considerations and stuff like that but i just wonder how that would go i think that's kind of where i land too yeah i think it'd be less because i think that the that like again the scarcity and the we need to get the last player of this position in this tier and we need to make sure that we're doing that like like the eagles going up and trading for makai lemon you know with the way they did in this year's draft i assumed they had him as like the last player in that tier of receivers that they wanted to chase and that's why they did it so i i think if you you can tell yourself oh we'll just find one later you know we'll just we'll just find this guy in free agency I think you'd be a little bit less there'd be less urgency in making sure you were getting ahead of certain teams and getting certain players I you know that's actually I think we probably like those top 10 trades like trying to get the elite talents that probably doesn't change but a lot of those trades that we see like back into the first round of what you're talking about of making sure we get that last guy in a tier probably see less of those because those be like yeah, we'll sign whoever for$11 million and it'll be fine.

28:56Robert Mays: One of the prevailing kind of sentiments when I was reading about this is that people are just comfortable with the way that it is right now. And I think Kwesi was quoted in the story and he was saying that, I don't even want to think about that because this is just how it is. There's just no value in thinking about that. And that's kind of how I feel is that I find the offseason cadence so comfortable at this point because i've done it so many times i i just i love this like i i love the way that it is set up right now just because it feels very warm and cozy and i can just kind of like wade into the offseason with the exact same rhythm every single year so i i vote for keeping it the same even if i can admit that it might not be optimized we in the nfl sphere whether it's the league us and media fans whoever it's a very ritualistic and like i like the way that things go league and so for that reason alone i would understand why they never even think about changing it yeah it's a worthwhile question it's a very good one by macy but i vote to keep things the way that they are right now we're going to take our first quick break and then we're going to come back and chat through a few more of your questions all right we've made it summer is here warm weather is back my favorite summer days are the ones that are nice and hot during the daytime You can go to the pool.

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33:25hi bar what's the next one all right sean jameson appropriate last name for this question sean says jesus attached is a photo of the different horrific infusions of malort from the barrel house in dayton if you're unfamiliar with what malort is we can talk about that a little later if you're listening we have the we have this up on screen right now on our youtube channel we have the he sent us the screenshot of the infusion so you can see it on youtube this had me wondering What player or coach could be infused into teams with everything else remaining the same that would put the worst taste in fans' mouths?

33:57Like the Bears being forced to play Aaron Rodgers at quarterback this year. Bonus points if there's some critical mass that could be infused that approaches the liquid f*** you. Sorry for the bleep, Katie. If you're not watching, the liquid f*** you is a malort infused with dinner mints, banana runts, Old Bay, Wormwood, Pickle Brine, Raisins, and smoked scorpion peppers. Robert, I know you went first on the last one, but you're the Chicagoan answering the questions. You got to take this one first.

34:22Robert Mays: The idea that, like, Malort is so bad that you can just do whatever you want to it because it has no pride is offensive to me. Like, I find that deeply offensive. I agree completely. I don't want to be one of these people that's like, no, it's actually good. I get why people are turned off by it, but what I drank, which, you know, I used to do a decent amount, I shot Malort. That was my, that's what I did. Like it was, that was my choice. If I was sitting at a bar and we all did one, that's what I did. And so I like it. I mean, I have liked it. Again, I think it deserves more respect than whatever this bar in Dayton is doing it to it right now.

34:59Robert Mays: If you want to have it be involved in some sort of like elevated cocktail program and you want to do cool shit with it, there are bars that have done this in Chicago very well. Like Lost Lake, when it existed, had a really cool Malort menu and did some fun stuff with it. That's acceptable. But I want you to be respectful of it as respectful of its integrity if you're going to be doing things with it in a bar that's my lord soapbox i want to talk to someone who's running our merch contest and say this is going up after the merch closes but if someone out there is hearing this after it closes and you want to make a tafts we respect malort shirt we can get that into the contest also it deserves respect that's what that's what i'm gonna say i would say right now there are two things that come to mind because in this offseason specifically they've been like the two main sources of vitriol that have come across my timeline.

35:46Robert Mays: I'm going to flip the Bears-Packers thing. If you made Caleb Williams the Packers quarterback right now. Oh, that's a better version, yes. And listen, if I were a Packers fan and all I had to hear about was this guy that completed 58 % of his passes and threw all these interceptions in the playoffs and objectively was still a very flawed quarterback last year and about how he was the second coming, I'd be pissed off too. I would be very frustrated with this because your quarterback, I hope Caleb Williams is a superstar. I hope he wins 10 MVP awards. Jordan Love is a better quarterback right now than Caleb Williams.

36:24Robert Mays: Jordan Love is a very, very good NFL player. And so I get just yelling at the, like just screaming into the void if you're a Packers fan, having to deal with what the Caleb Williams discourse has felt like in like the last month of the season and into this offseason. I completely understand that. The other one for me, I want you to go first because I have like I have a rant with the second one. My other one has already happened, which is the problem, which is that the idea that Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers are together again is seems like it would have been insane for the both of them two years ago even.

37:00And now we're at a point where we all have to pretend or or at least like talk ourselves into this idea that it's everything is fine and going to work. And so it's, I think if you asked me this question a year ago, I would have been like Mike Tomlin getting fired and Mike McCarthy being the head coach at the Pittsburgh Steelers.

37:15Robert Mays: My next one, the other like real just animus that I have seen this offseason is the animus that Seahawks fans have for the Rams. And I think some of that is driven by how much they're perceiving people talking about the Rams. OK, so I think in this specific case, it would be like if you took away Mike McDonald and made Sean McVay the coach of the Seahawks and they had to win the Super Bowl, but it meant Sean McVay got to win another Super Bowl. I think that would leave a bad taste in Seahawks fans mouths. I want to talk about this, though. I want to talk about the Seahawks Rams situation. I would like to address this.

37:52Robert Mays: If you are a Seahawks fan, I completely understand being frustrated at people crowning the Rams as next year's champions because of what they've done this offseason. That to me is disrespectful. Like, we should not be doing that. But someone said to me this week that people have been talking about last year's playoffs as if the Rams just got unlucky. Like, it was really just that the Rams lost it and a couple bounces didn't go their way and that's why they didn't win the Super Bowl. I have never said that because I don't think that the Seahawks were like a dominant, worthy champion. They were an excellent, excellent team that is a deserving champion in any given NFL season.

38:34Robert Mays: Like no matter what the AFC side of the bracket looked like. But when it comes to why people have been talking about the Rams this offseason, I just don't get why that's hard to understand. Like people are reacting to what has happened this spring specifically. the Rams have made several of the most noteworthy moves of the entire offseason. They made two of the five biggest veteran trades that we saw, and they shockingly drafted a quarterback in the first round after the guy they had at quarterback won the MVP last year. The Seahawks offseason has been very quiet. Like the guys they've lost are more notable than the guys they've gained.

39:09Robert Mays: And it's inevitable that right now, because of that, we're going to be talking about the Rams more than we talk about the Seahawks. If we start previewing the actual season, I think people would be very well served to remember how good Seattle was last year. That's important. But it's April and May. Like the Rams just traded for Miles Garrett, like framing that as the Rams traded for Miles Garrett. But remember that the Seahawks won the Super Bowl, guys. Like that would just be weird. Like we why would we do that? And so that just doesn't make sense. But I think as we get closer to the season, we should be really acknowledging how truly dominant the Seahawks were last year, which I think I did a lot near the end of last season.

39:49Robert Mays: You were on it before most people. Yes. And I think the other part of this, and I think this will happen inevitably on this show over the next two to three months, we should be having more conversation about Mike McDonald's place in the league. That is something that should be happening. And I plan on doing it. We just sketched out the next two months on this show. It's going to be a lot of conversations about this because I think he will be an incredibly influential figure in what the next several years of the NFL look like. Jesse Minter, I think, is partially the Ravens head coach because of Mike McDonald.

40:18Robert Mays: There really hasn't been a defensive version of McVay when it comes to a guy that is going to wield a ton of influence on the shape of the league as one singular presence on defense in the last 10 years. I think McDonald has a chance to be that, and I think the implications of that are going to come up over and over again, and we're going to talk a lot about that. But the last few months have been reserved for offseason moves and the Seahawks just didn't make many of them and I just don't understand like there we shouldn't have to like ring a bell every time we talk about teams being like just remember guys the Seahawks won the Super Bowl we know they did the easiest way to put how that all happened is that if before free agency and before the draft we put Super Bowl odds both of them would have been top five and then the Rams did a hundred things and the Seahawks did nothing It's kind of that simple.

41:06And even going back to like the playoffs and all that stuff, if I've maybe ever said the Rams got unlucky, I don't mean like bounces of the ball and stuff. I mean, like those two teams could have played a thousand games and they each win 500 of them and somebody had to win that game. And that doesn't take away from obviously what the Seahawks did. I just think that those two teams were incredible and the Seahawks were the one to get it over the finish line. So obviously they deserve a lot of credit. But again, these were the two, at minimum, the two of the best five teams in the NFL going into the year before free agency, before the draft, before all the trades.

41:36And the Rams acquired like a star corner, the best pass rusher in the league and all this other stuff. Like, of course, we're going to talk about them differently.

41:43Robert Mays: Yeah, but again, I think most of my commentary on them has been like the thought processes and the actual acts themselves. Like, I'm not sitting there. I get why they have the highest Super Bowl odds. It's like no one on this show I think is treating this as a foregone conclusion that that means the Rams are winning the Super Bowl next year. Matthew Stafford might break this year. Yes. It's just for so many different reasons. And so, yeah, the whole thing I think is kind of silly. But it's come up often enough that I at least wanted to address it in some capacity. All right, Bellarmine, what's the next one here?

42:15Okay, Ross Millard. We're getting in the World Cup fever here. Check it all out on The Athletic. We have a lot of cool stuff coming on The Athletic for the World Cup. Ross is thinking on soccer. and bringing that over to the NFL. He says, In the Premier League, elite teams have converged on a control meta, possess the ball, defend well, grind out, low variance wins. That drives up the price of certain player profiles, creative forwards who can break down settled defenses, elite sixes, lock down center backs, and creates value opportunities for clubs willing to play a different style. What's the NFL analog?

42:47If a front office completely set aside stylistic preferences and asked what player profiles are systematically undervalued right now, then built the offense and defense to maximize those players, what would that team look like? Thinking about how teams like the Bengals or Eagles have consolidated spend on one side of the ball, but taken a step further, if you were truly style agnostic and just chasing the best talent per dollar, what's the approach? And is this happening today? Derek, what do you got here? Yeah, so I think trying to figure out like what positions teams are chasing and why, I think it definitely depends.

43:17I think we're already seeing the one that teams believe is to be undervalued, which is the tight ends movement. Like everybody believes that that's just like a cheaper way to be able to put together your skill group. And, you know, we did the tight end show. I think it came out last Thursday or Friday. Like you were talking to Charlie Kohler, Robert, about how it's just more business savvy to build your pass catcher room overall with these tight ends because it's going to be a little bit cheaper. And so I think that we've seen teams want to do that for that reason, which I do think leads us to an interesting point.

43:47I think sometimes when we get these positions or archetypes or whatever that feel undervalued, it goes away so fast in the NFL. The NFL is so quick to be like, that's the trend. We're going to hop on it. And two years later, whatever that value, you know, that you thought you were extracting is probably gone. Like if you're having to jump on it now, you are potentially a little bit late. And I think that that's kind of just the way that the NFL works. I also talked a little bit on that show. Like, I truly do believe that like downhill linebackers again are in a spot where they're a little bit undervalued.

44:19I still think we're in a position where we're kind of obsessed with coverage and interceptions and all that stuff. And I get that. But I still think that there's a little bit of like a. I think that there were much better downhill linebackers in this particular free agency class, for example, than Devin Lloyd. Like, I think that there were a lot of them who are better at that than Devin Lloyd. But Devin Lloyd got paid the most because in theory, he can get you some interceptions, which that to me feels a little bit more like luck based him kind of falling into some of those opportunities. And he's a good coverage player, whereas like the consistent downhill stuff that you're going to get from like a Robert Spillane, right, who is making like millions per year less than a guy like Devin Lloyd.

44:59I just think extracting value from those guys is pretty nice.

45:03Robert Mays: I think you're right in the sense that if we, by identifying them on this show, we're already a step behind. That's inevitably happening. I'll say this. I think that my answer to a question like this is, as the price for players on the perimeter has exploded, I think the value resides with players that play closer to the ball and in the spine of the offense and defense. right like interior defensive linemen to me right now still are undervalued compared to their counterparts on the edge like if we look at it right now will anderson is making 50 million dollars a year 50 5-0 the top interior defensive lineman is still only at 30 and that contract has been treated about as an outlier by the market for chris jones and so and i think you could make a really serious argument that the best interior defensive lineman especially because of what they're asked to do in light box run situations are as valuable as the best edge rushers right now and the gap between those two is 30 million dollars a year and even in the draft right like if byron murphy was an edge rusher with his production profile in the draft where he went he would have gone in the top five 100 instead he's in the teens and i so i think that position specifically, I would try to be building just the most badass interior defensive line rotation I possibly could with a combination of guys who are really stout against the run, have enough pass rush juice, can be pocket crushers like that position specifically, I still think is undervalued when it comes to the impact it has overall compared to other very, very highly compensated positions on defense.

46:40And even just look at a number of the best defenses in the league lately. Look at how many resources and picks the Rams spent on that position. Obviously, the Seahawks drafted Byron Murphy, who we just talked about. They go and trade for a Leonard Williams, like, you know, really investing in that room. Look at how quickly the Patriots defense turned around when they brought in Milton Williams to pair with Christian Barmore and then obviously getting Barmore back healthy and then also putting Robert Spillane behind them, like really like shoring up that spine, I do think is a good way to put it.

47:09The last thing I would want to say on this is I think if we're trying to do the thing of like identifying what are the archetypes and players that the league is really trending towards I think one of them is inevitably going to be the big nickel position but I don't think that is like a value proposition I think that is just like I think chasing that gets into like the scary where everyone after the cover three thing was like we're just going to find Richard Sherman's and Brandon Browners these six three corners is it's like man how many nickels are six three two twenty and can actually run like that I think if you start chasing that you run into an issue whereas I think trying to chase like having two quality tight ends or just having like linebackers who can downhill fit the run I think it's just a lot easier to find those guys like those skill sets are there are more of them it's just like identifying and really valuing them and giving them the money they probably deserve I think

47:57Robert Mays: that's probably right but I also think that if there is a guy that you think can capably play that position for you in free agency because safeties are available in free agency and maybe we're bucketing those big nickels in with safeties in terms of how many of those guys are hitting the market. Kyle Hamilton makes$25 million a year. That's not enough. That's not enough for what he is. That's not enough. And it's just, it's driven by what we pay them, that position. And so I think there's value to be found in both safeties and off-ball linebackers. I think part of the challenge with drafting those positions high is that it can be a little bit hit or miss for evaluating them because there's so much that can't be seen physically.

48:35Robert Mays: and so I think allowing yourself to pay them in free agency one they're available more often and two it's a little bit safer but I would be willing to pay those guys in free agency like I'd pay a little bit more for quality safety linebacker play than the market would probably dictate right now because I think that those players are probably undervalued that's a good point if we knew there was a guy who could give you around what Derwin James obviously gives you as like that flex you know kind of big nickel I think if there were five of those guys on the market or you know maybe that's a lot but like teams would be willing to pay for them but again in the draft that's a little bit of a scarier proposition that's why a guy like nicky manoir even for as talented as he is doesn't go in the first round because it's hard to pin down exactly what he was right and i think that's part of the reason but even like a guy like kobe bryant making what kobe bryant made in free agency i'm not even blinking at that contract because i just think that those types of players are really really valuable and like the idea that you know corners are going to be getting paid significantly more than those types of safeties now.

49:33Robert Mays: I just don't think that's correct. And the other position I would say is, I think interior offensive linemen and just offensive linemen in general, is you can still build a room like that at a relative discount for how important it is to your team's overall success. Like the idea that Will Anderson's making$50 million and the best offensive tackle is making$30 million. And so the highest paid offensive tackles are making 75 % of what the top wide receivers are, 60 % of what the top edge rushers are. And that's the thing. Like, I, Will Anderson and Daniel Hunter obviously deserve the money that they're getting, but how much cheaper would it be to, like, pay for a top-tier tackle duo?

50:14And not that necessarily you need to make that concession, but, like, that's exactly what you're saying. Like, it would cost you, like, 75 % of what it would be to have that ace pass rushing duo than it would to have, like, two superstar tackles.

50:25Robert Mays: Well, when you consider what right tackles are paid, you could pay the highest paid left tackle in the league and the highest paid right tackle in the league and it would add up to what to what will anderson makes and so i think just offensive lineman in general and like i think that's why we've seen so many first round picks thrown at offensive tackles over the last few years is that like we those players are hard to find and we just should keep investing them over and over and over again and i will say actually the tackle one is is kind of weird because at least with guard and linebacker and center we've talked about this before some of it is tied to like because of how weird they are to find in the draft that like goes into how it you know how we end up paying them and all that stuff and how they transfer to different schemes and whatever you want to say for that but tackles are a premium position that does always go in the first round and so you know what i mean like it's just weird that it's not treated in quite the same way as the edge and they also those guys age really well too it's not like there's really a consideration there like i i wonder what the push and pull there really is I wonder if just because there's less movement at that position than it is with some of the other positions, right?

51:25Robert Mays: That's a good point. Those guys never hit the market. Well, they never hit free agency, period. Right, right, right. And the only – and I'm curious. I'd have to look back at this, but I know that at one point – and I don't remember how kind of explicit this was because I think some people treat it as an outlier. But the DeAndre Hopkins trade happens to the Cardinals. He gets that massive AAV contract as part of that deal. and I think some of that bled into you know what other players were making and then Christian Kirk gets 25 million maybe that's part of it like they're yeah but at the same time it's like if I were a Laramie Tunsil and Dan Moore got 24 million dollars a year I'd be like this like I deserve way more than this and so it's I wonder if just the lack of overall movement at tackle compared to some other positions the price points just haven't changed quite as quickly and quite as dramatically as it has with something like receivers.

52:17Robert Mays: And I also think the receiver thing directly influenced the edge thing because we had these guys hitting the market at the same time or hitting free agency at the same time. And with Nick Bosa and Justin Jefferson, it was like the highest paid non-quarterback thing was real. Like those two like pushed each other up in a way that didn't seem to happen with offensive tackles. And so that's worth examining. Like why hasn't the tackle market grown quite as quickly if we acknowledge that those players are really valuable and really scarce as the wide receiver and edge market has. I also wonder too, and this would be a bad way to build a team to be clear, but obviously wide receiver and pass rushers, they put up numbers.

52:57Like it's very easy to see what you're paying for. Whereas if you pay for, you know, Tristan Wurst for as incredible as he is, and if he's making five all pros in a row, it's like a little bit harder to see like what the exact numerical value for what he's providing you is. Whereas Will Anderson Jr. can give you 20 sacks in a season. And it's very obvious what he is giving you. Again, I don't know if that should necessarily, if you're the GM, like fall into how you're doing it. But like I get perception wise how that might have some effect on how that's happening.

53:23Robert Mays: Talking about tackles, to me it even extends to interior offensive linemen. Like the idea that, yeah, they're getting paid more than they used to, but you can still get really, really, really good guards for like$15 million a year. He's a good player, and I don't even think this is like an overpay by any means. It's just more about market forces. Nick Herbig got$25 million this week. Like you're getting really good guards still for like numbers in the teens. And so I think that there is like a tiny bit of a gap between how we're valuing edges, receivers, even corners to an extent. Like the, again, the idea that Trent McDuffie is worth$30 million and Penny Sewell is worth $28 million.

54:01Robert Mays: That doesn't, that doesn't compute. Like, I just don't think that that is currently how the game is being played. That's, that's a really good way to put it with the Nick Herbie thing. Again, he's a really good player. there are there are two guards to make at least 23 million dollars it's trey smith and tyler smith that's it that's it and nick herbig it just got that money as a guy who has never been really a full-time starter but it's again because that's just kind of what the going rate is for a pass rusher even like milton williams getting 24 million in free agency i think milton williams i'd rather have that i'd rather like the interior defensive alignment thing i think that's where a lot of it true.

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58:13Okay, Jack Brenton has our next question. Jack says, elite edge rushers usually win with a combination of speed, power, and technique. But if you were building an entire edge room and could only prioritize one of those traits, which would you choose? The catch every player in the room is elite in your chosen trait, but only adequate in the other two. So your options are elite speed, adequate power and technique, elite power, adequate speed and technique, elite technique, adequate speed and power. Which room are you taking and why? Which trait gives you the best chance of consistently creating pressure in today's NFL?

58:45Derek, Robert got to do two in a row first. You get to do two in a row first. You take this one. Perfect. So I understand the value of putting all three options into the question. I don't think you can pick technique because to me, technique is only valuable insofar as it unlocks your athleticism.

59:03Robert Mays: Only a nerd would pick technique. Yeah, like, come on. We don't need to be doing that. Because I think with this, too, I was trying to think of like, okay, who is a player who I think is like incredibly technique sound and is maybe like adequate power and speed? And I was like, Tuli Tui Pilotu? Even that, I think, is too much power. I think it's Layatu Latu. I think Latu is actually the answer to that. That's a good one. Because Thule has a little bit more kicker ass to him. Thule's got some FU to him. He's got a little bit of punch to him. He's got more than adequate. That's a good one. Latu is a good one.

59:36Whereas I think if you look at some of the other guys, I think to me it was a little bit easier. At first, my inclination was immediately just like power. Of course it's power. But then as I thought about it, if the exercise is that you're taking elite speed. You're going to disappoint me here. I'm still probably lean power, but here's my argument on why I got myself a little bit closer on speed. Usually my issue with the speed guys is they are like zeros against the run, like truly hurting you. But if their technique and power is adequate, like we can get by and they're getting in the backfield enough, I think there is more of an argument than I probably initially led myself to believe.

1:00:13i still probably ultimately go to power because i think the ceiling for a room built like that is just way higher both run and pass even if obviously the the seal the ceiling is higher for the speed the floor the floor is higher for i think um the power guys okay that's what i thought you meant yeah yes the floor is higher yes sorry the ceiling is highest with speed right totally

1:00:34Robert Mays: and so i think the best recent examples where obviously it's not this because it's not a theoretical exercise but like if we're leaning towards speed some of the niners teams that we've seen the browns at their best a few years ago like that's the best example of this to me is we're like we're just getting upfield and it we are gash or be gash we do not care the giants right now i kind of are like this yes and but i wonder if their front plays like that right like that's it's a very different style than like what denard wilson might ask them to do i'm thinking of like these four down attack fronts and i think the the high end outcomes of that that we saw it with a 2023 Browns where the high end outcome of that is you have one of the best defensive success rates of all time.

1:01:17Robert Mays: If you play that way. And I do think that the ceiling cases for all speed is, are very tantalizing at the same time, especially with the way the game is being played right now. I want the power guys. Like it just give me five dudes who will, I, one of my favorite things is watching a sack where it just happens because the quarterback falls on his ass. Like it's just a bull rushed offensive tackle right back into the quarterback and the quarterback just falls over. If I have a defensive line where that's how I'm getting all my sacks, I support this. I actually think I think a good way to we can look at actually there are specific edge rooms that I do think are built like this.

1:01:55I think both the Seahawks and the Rams were built like those are power rushers. Now, obviously, versus like too good at too many things to really fall into this. But he is more that style of play. Absolutely. Versus the Broncos are very much the like speed only baby. And so it's kind of like, would you rather have the Broncos style of edge room or would you rather have Rams or Seahawks? And again, I think obviously the best games for the Broncos are just like, holy shit, Nick Benito and Jonathan Cooper in the backfield every single play. But I do think that there are games where you can bully them on the edge a little bit and they can be nullified in a way that like Jared Verce and Demarcus Lawrence and Byron Young and Chenna Nwosu, they are always going to pester you.

1:02:33At worst, they are always going to be around and at best they are going to be in your lap pretty consistently.

1:02:39Robert Mays: And I think that to me, what tips this is the run defense aspect of it. Totally. If you have the, and there's a difference between power and strength. And I would ask that question, like, are these guys powerful or are they also strong? Because if they're very strong in a phone booth along with being powerful, then to me, it's like a no brainer. But David Bailey is the guy we talked about this with in the draft. David Bailey is powerful. He's not necessarily strong. Like those are two different things because power, I think, is about explosiveness. And there's a level of explosiveness necessary to be really powerful as a pass rusher.

1:03:09Robert Mays: But the part of this that I think is notable is that there's a reason that you need a little bit of both. Because one of the reasons that the Rams defensive front works so well is because if you have a defensive line of all power guys, you're going to struggle to finish plays. That's what the issue is going to be. But if you build a room where it's a combination of them, like Kobe Turner is an amazing piece of a broader defensive line rotation because his change of direction is so good that if the quarterback is spilling at all, he is so good at cleaning stuff up. And that's what a player like Jared Burse does.

1:03:44Robert Mays: Jared Burse creates sacks for other people. If you only have that type of player, then who's going to get the sacks? You're getting them in the exact way I described, where you're just trying to collapse the entire pocket all at once. That is a great way to put it. And this does really go back into like, you do need to make sure you're building the rest of the room correctly. because I do think on the other end, the Broncos have done a good job of that, too. They built a defensive line room that was like, we're going to get push immediately, force the quarterback to want to get to the edge. Oh, shit.

1:04:11Nick Benito is right there. Like they've both of these teams are all three of these teams have done a really, really good job of that. All right. What's the last one here? All right. Last one. Scarecrow 003. After listening to the AFC supporting cast episode, both of you had a sense of positivity toward Declan Doyle and how he will impact the offense in Baltimore as the play caller. I see similarities this season between him and Mike LaFleur, even though LaFleur is the head coach in Arizona. Why do you think there is a different level of optimism toward how these guys will impact their new teams?

1:04:40Is it as simple as one has Lamar and the other has Jacoby Percet or Gardner Minshew or Carson Beck?

1:04:45Robert Mays: Robert, what do you got here? I think with the Cardinals, there is a lack of enthusiasm to the point where there's only so much excitement you can have about Mike LaFleur. We know the quarterback situation is bad. We know they're not going to be a very good team. With Declan Doyle, he gets to play with Lamar Jackson immediately. And I think that's unfair to the individual play callers if we're trying to isolate them from the situation. Because I think there's absolutely a chance that Michael Fleur does a really, really good job with the Cardinals. To me, the best case for him, and I think the other part of it is, with Declan Doyle, we've never seen him do it before.

1:05:18That's exactly what it is to me.

1:05:19Robert Mays: When there's this mystery box element of it, it's so much easier to talk yourself into the best possible version. And we've seen Michael Fleur do it before. He wasn't a disaster with the Jets, but we've seen him do it and ultimately get fired. I think the best case scenario for a Michael Fleur is similar to what we just saw happen with Clint Kubiak, where there's solid but kind of unspectacular play callers at first. And they're both the same age. They both were play callers in like 2021. And so the timeline of it actually does match up pretty well. And they're solid, doesn't work out for whatever reason.

1:05:52Robert Mays: they go spend some time as really important pieces from a game planning perspective with some of the best play callers in the league and then they get a chance to do it again before they hit their 40th birthdays like there's absolutely a shot that michael floor is a one of those game-changing play callers this time around because of what the last four or five years of his career have looked like i'm open to that idea i think for the reasons that we stated there's just a little bit less excitement for him compared to a guy like Declan Doyle. Yeah, I think the mystery box element of it is huge. And like, again, LeFleur was fine with the Jets.

1:06:26I think a lot more of the reason he was fired was not necessarily because he was bad at the job. It was just the quarterback was not good. And the situation was, it was obviously not good. And so I think it's entirely possible, like you said, that he takes some learnings from some of the situations he's now been in since then and ends up being pretty good. I think the other small consideration is like, one Doyle is going in purely as the offensive coordinator Lafleur does will have head coaching responsibilities and so it's like he's just gonna have more things on his plate it's a little bit harder to see how he's gonna handle all that stuff what's also part of like if Declan Doyle

1:06:57Robert Mays: got hired as a team's head coach I'd be like what like holy shit I would not be excited as or as excited like if he was the Ravens head coach I'd be like I don't know man like it's and the Cardinals finished they filled that up that vacancy last and like there's so much talk about is this even a good job like I think there's just so many different circumstantial things that play into how we see Michael Floor in that role versus how we see Declan Doyle in his role that even if they're play callers both of them it's just a different lens that we see the LeFleur higher through than we see the Declan Doyle higher through and the last the last little note I have that I do think it gives Doyle a little bit more interest Michael Floor is obviously coming from like the Shanahan, McVay world, all that stuff.

1:07:41And we've seen a lot of those guys succeed, but that's also old news, right? Like we've just seen a lot of these guys before, whereas Doyle coming from more of like what feels like a slightly newer tree with like the Ben Johnson coaching staff, it just feels slightly newer and a little bit more refreshing, even if it is a lot of the same type of principles.

1:07:57Robert Mays: Yes, I 100 % agree with that. All right, Beller. I think that's all we got for today. We will be back with another full slate of shows this week. Like now that vacations are over, and by the way, Dave's on his honeymoon. Like Dave's coming back. Just letting you guys know. Like Dave got married a couple weeks ago. Yeah, wait a minute. Should we say congrats, Dave? We haven't been clear about that. Congrats, Dave. Congrats, Carm. Yes. He's not back yet. We'll congratulate him when he comes back. We'll get there when he's on the show, yeah. When he has to come to work again, we'll congratulate him.

1:08:27Robert Mays: Yeah, Dave got married and he's on his honeymoon right now, so he will be back. But we now, the fact that I'm back from vacation and we're kind of settling into our off-season schedule, It'll be Monday through Thursday every week, essentially through the start of training camp. That is our plan right now. So no shows on Fridays, but we will have four shows a week all the way through training camp. And then when training camp starts, all bets are off. I mean, we haven't necessarily ironed those plans out yet, but you guys can expect a shitload of stuff coming your way when we get to late July. For now, that is all we got.

1:08:58Robert Mays: Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We will talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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