Jalen Ramsey/Minkah Fitzpatrick trade reaction with Bill Barnwell

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2:03Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. News is always fun. We had plans for this week in terms of how the show was going to go, and those plans dramatically changed on Monday morning when we got news of the trade between the Dolphins and the Steelers. A couple trades. We're all lumping them into one. The Dolphins get Minka Fitzpatrick. They send out Johnnie Smith and Jalen Ramsey. We get a swap of 20, 27 draft picks in the process. Me and my friend Bill Barnwell from ESPN, we're going to be banking a mailbag today for next week. Cause you know, that's how the summer recording schedule works.

2:36Robert Mays: Instead, we're moving some stuff around and we did an entire episode on the Johnnie Smith, Jalen Ramsey, Minka Fitzpatrick trade. A 15 minute discussion turned into a 35 minute discussion. So we're just letting this thing stand on its own. So please enjoy this conversation with me and Barnwell right now.

2:58Robert Mays: Here to help me dig through a massive trade in the NFL landscape happening on June 30th, like it always does. We were definitely planning on this. I knew when I got up this morning that we'd be reacting to an incredibly interesting, notable trade in the NFL world. It is my friend from ESPN, the one, the only Bill Barnwell. Barnwell, how are you feeling today? You know, Mays, I don't want to say pulled some strings, got that trade over the line. I don't want to say I did that. But it does feel serendipitous, certainly, to say that we were planning a podcast. And it's coming out, I believe, next week.

3:38And we managed to find, on our way to doing the podcast, a whole-ass trade to discuss. us and a fascinating player for player challenge trade with like a weird sub trade included as well. I don't totally understand why they're two separate deals. Don't totally understand why they were reported this way, but I think a really fascinating move for both teams.

4:00Robert Mays: This is one of those moments where it rises to a level of just being notable that I have to bring it up to my wife as she's like walking past me in the house and she has to pretend like she cares like 10 seconds oh yeah I mean think about the waves of how this happened this morning first you get the Jalen Ramsey to the Steelers news which you have an initial reaction to it's one of those moments where it's like okay you know I understand that they need another corner somewhere this is a team that has pushed its chips in with a 42 year old quarterback they have an aging core this is one of those let's just throw another log on the fire sort of moves I understand that so you have that reaction.

4:36Robert Mays: And then you have Schefter tweeting that it's actually Jalen Ramsey for Minka Fitzpatrick, which adds an entire another layer to the weirdness of this and also the football elements of it. And then we get the John O. Smith part of it. So how often do you get three different waves of news about one single transaction and it changes your opinion of the transaction three different times? It was beautiful. It was one of the weirder sections of NFL news and reactions to it that I can remember happening in a very long time did you tell your wife about the trade in each step as it came through or was it we didn't get to the johnny smith part of it we just we just got to the minka fitzpatrick jaylen ramsey part of it okay and what was her reaction maybe i could just steal her reaction for this she just kept walking and then put her other earbud in just just sheer ignorance just not even acknowledging that you you deigned to waste her time which is frankly fair and the exposure that she had to it was the distance it takes from the kitchen to going back upstairs.

5:35Robert Mays: So that's all she had to endure. What are your initial thoughts about this? If she doesn't care, how much do you care? I care, but her reaction might be accurate in terms of what it really means for things, right? I mean, you know, you're framing this as like a Steelers all in move. And I think that's been kind of the, you know, a common thread I have seen in this, this sort of conversation about this trade so far, but they also subtracted like a key player from their secondary in making this move. Let me be clear about this. I don't think this is some boon for the Steelers championship chances.

6:11Robert Mays: I just think that trading for 31 year old Jalen Ramsey, which is how old he'll be this year falls in line with a lot of the other things the Steelers have done when it comes to their perception of themselves and what they think that they can achieve this year. Whether I believe any of that is an entirely different conversation. Okay. Happily on the same page here. the way I describe the Steelers at this point is that it feels like they're the team the Saints want to believe they could have been with Derek Carr like man if everything goes right we could win nine or ten games maybe we'll even get to host a playoff game in the first round we'll probably lose by 25 points but we could do that and I understand they've made a lot of moves this offseason but it just strikes me as so odd because what was the the hallmark of the Steelers when we were coming up in this industry what was the hallmark of the steelers when we were kids it was we're going to draft we're going to develop the hell out of our players we're going to hold on to as many picks as possible we are not a team that's going to go out and get a ton of expensive players from other places there's going to be nine players starting for the steelers this year who were either added in free agency added in trades or uh i guess those are the only two ways you could really have players that free agency and trade would be the two of them really felt like i was on on a on a real it's the rule of threes it's the committee rule of threes you had to land the third one unfortunately there isn't one i was gonna say waivers it doesn't really count um but you got the idea i mean this is a a franchise now that's relying so heavily on players from outside the organization to play key roles and i mean surrounding a 41 42 year old aaron rogers with those guys i'm not sure that really gets them where they want to be I mean, you're paying now$20 million, I believe, is the figure after the Dolphins, I think, are eating a little bit of this.

7:54But Jalen Ramsey, as a likely slot corner, which is where he's going to fit in this lineup, as some kind of maybe we'll talk about the fit maybe in terms of when I'm going to be on a slot corner. But it's not like you're getting Jalen Ramsey when he was 26 or 27. You're getting basically a one-year rental on Jalen Ramsey. You're getting a one-year rental on John Smith, a one-year rental on Aaron Rodgers, a one-year rental on Robert Woods, a one-year rental, I believe, on Darius Slay. I mean, it feels like this is a team that is saying, no, we actually believe with these moves, we are really an all in team for this year because a lot of those guys are not going to be back next year.

8:26They're going to have to bring in more players to replace them. There's not a lot of built in replacements. Some of those guys on this roster, we don't know what's going to happen with TJ Watt. There were sort of an ominous tweet from ESPN's Adam Schefter and about TJ Watt's future with this organization, whether there's going to be teams trying to trade for him in the final year of his deal. I sort of don't really understand what the Steelers think this is going to accomplish. It feels like sort of it's a full measure to get a half result. It feels like this is a way to ensure they get the results the other past couple of years that really improving their ceiling all that much.

9:02Robert Mays: I think I landed in a similar place with that. The Watt thing is so interesting to me because I would love for someone to articulate to me how trading TJ Watt after doing the rest of this stuff makes sense. and is there any possible layer to that I'm not sealing seeing because I don't see an angle to how that tracks everything else you've done trading what is still your best defensive player when you need your defense to carry you to wherever you're ultimately going to want to go that just makes absolutely no sense to me so I see them playing out the watt thing the only thing that to me is justified not justifiable but the way this tracks to me the Ramsey for Fitzpatrick swap and how it does increase your odds this year.

9:42Robert Mays: We talked about this a little bit, Derek and I, when we were discussing just how good the rest of the Steelers are as they've been framed as this quarterback away team. And I think if you look at Minka Fitzpatrick's play over the last couple of years, he has fallen off a little bit. And for me, part of that is the way that he has to be deployed in this defense because they haven't had a secondary safety that they can play in the post. And you aren't really allowing Minka Fitzpatrick to have that roaming role where he can really make a bigger impact on the game. Swapping him out for a guy like Jalen Ramsey, who is going to be in a more natural spot, even if it's inside, we've seen him do that before.

10:18Robert Mays: Combining that version of your defense with Juan Thornhill and Deshaun Elliott on the back end, does that actually make you a better defense in 2025? I think you can make an argument that it does. I just don't know if it pushes you far enough for me to have materially different expectations for what this defense is supposed to be yeah i mean last year in miami you saw jill and ramsay used much more often as a pass rush or a good thing he was only like 40 pass rush snaps it was still way more than he'd been in the past he was really effective in that role on a snap by snap basis he was torso under scrimmage more often he was in the backfield more often like he was he you know he was not just playing outside cornerback and i think one of the strengths of jill and ramsay is he has the instincts the tackling ability the physicality to be a guy who can play multiple roles.

11:03And so I do wonder if the Steelers see something we're not seeing here. And I go back, ironically enough, to the Minka Fitzpatrick trade they made with the Dolphins all those years ago, where when they traded for Minka, he was a slot cornerback who had just been benched because Hollywood Brown had torched him for like three touchdowns in that week one Lamar Jackson MVP season game. They move him to safety and he's an all-pro, I believe, that very season by the end of the year. He's played really well for them once they moved him to safety. I wonder if they just are so confident that they see Ramsey as like a, you know, just a total freak genius of a defensive player that unleashing him in kind of a free role might be something they think would make him worth what they're going to pay him for this upcoming year.

11:47Because again, let's say Ramsey does play really well this year. Are you going to pay him$20 million next year to be, you know, your, your like inside slot corner safety guy? That would be an incredibly large investment. And maybe the market's not there for him for that, but we've seen this is a guy who, I mean, he wants to get paid. I was literally writing about him, writing a piece that by the time, I think it'll come out tomorrow. I'm not sure. It'll come out this week about the bag hall of fame. Joe Ramsey's in the bag hall of fame for me. That's a guy who has consistently pushed the envelope when it comes to getting paid and deservedly so.

12:19But that does not seem to jive with what these dealers have typically paid cornerbacks outside of truly tippy top players. And it just speaks to like, okay, where are you spending your money? What is your long-term philosophy? Are you just plugging holes by adding veterans who you think are undervalued? Or is there really a long-term vision here beyond some of these moves that seem very short-term?

12:41Robert Mays: Yeah, I don't know what the long-term vision would be. And it's funny because when I've talked about the Steelers before and how this can all potentially come together, to me, it was difficult to land the plane because the needle you're trying to thread as I mix my metaphors on defense was getting smaller and smaller as these players were getting older. And one of the consistent refrains from that, one of the consistent responses was, well, Mink is only 28. You know, you're acting like he's as old as these other guys. Well, now you're taking a team that was fifth in snap-weighted age on defense last year, as I steal from the info in the tweet that you had at the end of last season.

13:13Robert Mays: And now you're making them older by adding a guy, a corner, who's going to be in his age 31 season and swapping out a 28-year-old safety. And you just signed a 34-year-old outside corner as part of your off-season plan. So it seems like the fragility and just, again, how tight this is for them to have it all come together is becoming more difficult, not less difficult, based on the moves that they've made this off-season. All right, before we move on, we're going to take a quick break. Football season has arrived, and with the U.S. Bank's Smartly Visa signature card, you earn an unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase, including at the stadium or at home, watching on a brand new TV.

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16:02Robert Mays: Should we talk about the Johnny Smith-ness of it all? Well, so I like the Johnny Smith part of it all. And so here's what I'll say about the defense. The last point I'll make, I think coming to a conclusion and the money is obviously part of this, but a lot of that$20 million I believe is going to be in the option bonus he gets in week one. That's 19 million bucks. They'll prorate that over five years of the deal. So you're going to have to eat a little bit of it later. And it's, but it's more of a cash consideration than it is a cap consideration for what Jalen Ramsey is going to weigh this season.

16:30Robert Mays: But so you look at the defense and you come to a conclusion and you say, OK, I would rather have. Darius Slay on the outside, Joey Porter Jr. on the outside, Jalen Ramsey on the inside, either at safety or corner in some capacity with a combination of Deshaun Elliott and Juan Thornhill over a defense that has Minket Fitzpatrick still at safety, but Beanie Bishop at the slot cornerback spot. I'm fine landing there again. I don't know how much of a difference it makes, but I can understand preferring what they have now. I actually think the more material change is John Smith in this offense because it's such a strange collection of skill position players that I don't think there's any way you could have gone about this in a traditional manner and been effective.

17:11Robert Mays: So adding John Smith as just a yak piece, getting him the ball on screens, slide routes, et cetera, and having that be a huge portion of your offense when you didn't have a pathway to a traditional number two receiver. I think I'm okay with that, but I land in a similar spot where I'm like, yeah, I get this, but does it make me feel any differently about the 2025 Steelers? I don't think so. Just to look at the contract, right? You're getting John Smith that they swapped a five for a seven for John Smith. It's not a huge deal, but still something for a team that has traded a bunch of draft capital in moves where you'd want to hold on to as many picks as possible.

17:49What are the chances that Johnny Smith is worth more than 12 million dollars a year in terms of surplus value for this offense?

17:55Robert Mays: Where does that fall among tight ends? I mean, for tight ends, that's not that bad, right? Is that's a cold commit money. You don't need to own yourself, Mays, on that one. I'm just saying it's like 12 million bucks for a guy who is probably going to be the second most important money. 12 million bucks for a guy. And again, I think that 12 million bucks for a starting tight end is like that's market value. That's sticker price. But I think how important he's going to be for you to have a viable path to a decent offense. I understand the argument for it because this team is there's no way they were going to be able to drop back and play like other offenses and be successful based on the pass catchers that they had.

18:36Robert Mays: So John Smith taking them in sort of a weird direction. I'm OK with Johnny. Do you think the line between can do that and can't do that is 65 targets for John Smith? Again, this is not about my enthusiasm about the Steelers and their chances. I just understand the vision for how they're trying to squeeze as much as they can out of this. I just have a lot of doubts about how much juice is actually there to get squeezed. No, I mean, I think it's all rind. You just brought more Ryan into the equation to squeeze. I don't mind Johnny Smith as a player, and I don't mind limb leaning into more 12, even 13 personnel with Arnold Washington being involved.

19:17Robert Mays: They do it 40 percent of the time anyway. So this is a team that's going to have two to three tight ends half the time. Now it might be more tight. And she like, I mean, there's 14 personnel. You can do it. The Chiefs did a few snaps. You can do it. But it sort of reinforces what this offense is going to look like and how little it's going to realistically change post Aaron Rodgers, which I think is a plus. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Aaron Rodgers' QBR over the last three years, I believe, is 15 points better with two plus tight ends on the field as opposed to one tight end or no tight ends on the field.

19:47I mean, I think it leans into being bigger, dictating personnel, creating some easiness matches for Rodgers. All that stuff is great. I don't have any issue with that. but I mean I just look at what they could have done this offseason like they spent 32 million dollars minus whatever they are paying Mika Fitzpatrick um which I figure exactly how much but you know they spent a significant amount of money in the last week of June to get these guys like wouldn't you rather spent that money in March or April I know maybe you were worried about the quarterback situation but you kind of figured at some point you were getting Rodgers just felt like there's maybe a better chance to spend that money earlier in the offseason on some players who were not going to be quite as expensive i think johnny smith is a good player i think you could have got reasonable tight ends for not as much money you could get maybe two as opposed to one you could have got maybe uh two defensive backs you could have got more depth i'm i i just

20:45Robert Mays: feel like terrible free agent group though like think about the secondary pass catchers available in free agency this year the guys that you could sign to johnny smith money there's there was two of them at receivers specifically. It was really just Josh Palmer and Deami Brown. I'm not sure you're losing a lot by having to sit out free agency this year specifically. I just think all of this is just a lot of movement and a lot of noise to end up in what I believe is probably going to be a similar spot. And I think that's why I just, even if it's a compelling move, because the details are kind of wonky, it's just hard for me to get overly invested in what this means for the Steelers chances, because I don't think there's much of it anyway.

21:25Robert Mays: I think we're going to get to the end of this season. This team is going to have to have a long look in the mirror about how aggressive it's going to be to find its next quarterback and hit reset on this version of the roster with or without Jalen Ramsey and John O'Smith. But like the Saints, to bring it back to what I started with originally, these moves don't hint at a reality where they're facing and saying, okay, we're not good enough. They're hinting at a reality saying we're a step away. We're a player division went away as opposed to, you know, looking at it as being, okay, no, like the fact that we are consistently coming up short and not being really close to winning in the wildcard round is proof that we're not close to winning a title.

22:04They clearly see themselves as much closer to breaking through than I do. And I'm certainly like someone who's very down on the Steelers year after year and it's consistently proven wrong. But you know, is there any reason to think that this is actually going to work and they actually are going to be closer to competing for an AFC title than we're giving them, we're making it out to be?

22:26Robert Mays: Here's my, here's what I would say to that. I think the downside of these moves and the financial levels they'll have to pull to make them work are far less dangerous than what the Saints were looking at. The Steelers right now, without a TJ Watt extension on the books, have$86 million in 2026 cap space. And I just assume that they'll have to pivot from whatever this is to a market, to a model where they'll have a rookie quarterback contract to build around. So I think trying to get the most out of this year, even if it's probably all for not doesn't come with enough significant downside for me to be that worried about thinking of yourself this way.

23:02Robert Mays: I think it's misguided, but I think ultimately it's kind of harmless. If that makes sense. Outside of the draft picks, yes, if they were just signing a bunch of old free agents, it's very doing like a seventh. It's not like they're swapping out a bunch of them and they have a lot of excess draft picks next year. But you never have enough excess draft picks, Mays. That stuff, just because you have extras, does that mean you should be trading it away for Jalen for Johnny Smith? But it's a fifth for a seventh. Like the draft capital part of it is just kind of like, eh, whatever. This is more about money than it is draft capital.

23:35Robert Mays: And I don't think they're giving, I don't think they're leveraging themselves enough with the money for me to be concerned about. I think this is. The money's fine. I think this is them believing they're a little bit closer than they are. And that to me is only a huge problem when you're making decisions that make your that put your future in jeopardy. And I just don't think this really does that. I think it's an example of not having a lot of self-awareness about just your general positioning. But again, I don't think it comes with that much downside where they're going to harm themselves in the long run by doing this stuff.

24:06I don't believe they're going to harm themselves by doing this, but I do think that they are in a position where it is hard for me to sit here and think, OK, we're going to be talking about this team next March and they're going to be in the exact same spot without those veterans. I don't think, I wouldn't be shocked if none of these guys we talked about are on this roster next year and we're just sitting at them, watching them cycle through veterans in these spots that are just sort of one-year rentals. And that just, it defeats the purpose of what the Steelers are. It just seems so at odds with what has worked for them in the past.

24:39It feels like they want to get back to being the old Steelers, the constantly competing for title Steelers by going in the opposite direction from what built those teams year after year.

24:50Robert Mays: I think when you go the Rogers route and you understand we have one year to do this anyway, these moves are in line with that. And next year they're going to have to hit some sort of soft reset no matter what happens. That's kind of how I see this. You don't think they're going to talk themselves into Kirk Cousins next year and a couple other veteran guys? If that's one of the pads here, that is a dangerous path to go down. I'm just operating as though they are they've stockpiled enough 2026 draft capital and there will be enough options in 2026 where they're going to get to the end of this and say, OK, we did what we did this year with our older guys.

25:25Robert Mays: We're going to get a young quarterback next year and try to offset some of this. I'm operating as if that is going to happen. I understand that might be a mistake, but that's just kind of where I'm at with this team is that like, all right, 2025 is going to be what it's going to be. Even if we have a couple of aging pieces and this is a very fragile approach to this season, even if it goes poorly, we're turning a page next year anyway. So some of that is mitigated. But I might be completely wrong about that. If they get to the end of this season and they say, all right, now we're one more age 35 or older quarterback away from actually having this all come together.

26:00Robert Mays: That is a dangerous path. you are willing to put on the record here that we're not going to be sitting here next March and reading Pittsburgh local media saying yeah Mason Rudolph should get a shot to be the starter he went three and one filling in for Aaron Rodgers last year you're telling me there's no chance of that happening that's not going to be what happens with the Steelers next year or again the fact that Kirk didn't play at all this season or won't play at all this season and now we're gonna be he's two years removed from the Achilles Aaron Rodgers Aaron Rodgers was the 18th best quarterback in the league last year and the Steelers went 10 and seven and lost in the first round of the playoffs.

26:34Robert Mays: What if Kirk Cousins is the 10th best quarterback in the league? What could we do with that? That's probably a more realistic outcome, but I'm not sure what they just did pushes them any closer to that. I think that just might be, this is who the Steelers are at their core. Okay. I think we agree. All right. Before we finish up this discussion, we're going to take one more quick break.

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28:30Robert Mays: Anything to say about the Dolphins? The Dolphins are so weird. I was going to say. We're just talking about moves that don't align with where teams actually sit. This idea that the Dolphins offseason to me is fascinating. You have this team that it was essentially a similar thought process I had for the 2025 Dolphins that I have for the 2025 Steelers. It's like, all right, we've committed to all these aging pieces. This is probably our last run with this thing anyway. And then Teron Armstead retires. They trade Jalen Ramsey and you think, okay, maybe this is a sign that they're taking their medicine a little bit.

29:05Robert Mays: They're going to take a step back. They're going to get back to a more methodical way of trying to add talent, get a little bit younger. And then they make the single most indefensible trade of the entire draft by going up and trading a mid-round pick for Jonas Savanea. At least the Falcons, at least the Falcons, you could talk yourselves into the fact that they're close, even if I disagree with it. The idea that the Dolphins, who have no rookie contract talent on the roster, are trading away mid-round picks to move up for a single interior offensive lineman is completely indefensible. So even if you think it's hard to square all the things the Steelers have done in a single offseason, I still think it's harder to square all the things the Dolphins have done.

29:46you have you have to answer this with with truth and honesty maze did the falcons pay you to say

29:51Robert Mays: that is this spawn con i completely disagree with what the falcons did but at least i understand it right if you have a team that you think if we're a pass rush away from being really competitive and i'm a gm on the hot seat so i have to make this all work for me to keep my job i get how that move happens i do not get landing in the place that the dolphins did by making that move in the second round of the draft. You don't see the Dolphins saying, oh, no, if two is broken, we're screwed and everyone gets fired. That's the only that seems completely obvious to me. I don't agree with it, but that seems way easier to justify.

30:26Robert Mays: You can find another interior offensive lineman 20 picks later without having to trade away another mid-round pick. How have we flipped to the point where you're just like, all interior offensive linemen are the same in the second round. Just plug anybody in, bro. I just don't know that the difference between Jonas Savanay, I'm trying to think of somebody taken a little bit later than that, like Dylan Fairchild or like whoever. To me, the gap is not nearly big enough to justify something like that. We don't need to get that deep into this right now. But I think this is just an explanation that the Dolphins are strange and I don't really understand what they're trying to accomplish.

30:59Well, do you feel like they're sort of making the move the Steelers or not? Like they're sort of recognizing, OK, with the core we have, we were not going to make it any further. We did lose in the wildcard round a couple of times. And instead of leaning further into trying to squeeze more out of that core, maybe we do need to reset.

31:16Robert Mays: Yes, I think that's a lot of what they've done this offseason does point you in that direction, but not all of it does. And so and again, I don't know what is this group with Chris Greer at the helm going to be allowed to oversee that reset, considering how everything else is going. Like, I'm just not sure who the Dolphins are trying to be and who is going to take them where they're trying to go. they're just a very confusing team to me right now. Tough part for me is, okay, if you're going to do that really over the last two off seasons, you're going to want to keep your young core of players.

31:45Let some of the veterans go. Maybe don't extend Jalen Ramsey a year before you're going to try and trade him away after paying him with an extension the prior off season as well. You know, lean into keeping some of the young players you've developed. And yet Christian Wilkins left last off season. Robert Hunt left last off season. Those are two of the most expensive players, non-quarterbacks in free. I think the two most expensive non-quarterbacks in a free agency this year, Javon Holland leaves. And maybe individually you could say, okay, we can't justify paying for one of those guys. But when you're letting your young players who are just coming off of rookie deals leave and you're stuck with a group of young players who haven't developed, you're relying so heavily on those veterans you've added.

32:26And those guys were not living up to expectations last year. Ramsey wasn't his usual self and is now gone. Tyreek Hill obviously had a disappointing year. Bradley Chubb didn't play all year because the, I believe because of the injury. Jalen Phillips, who's now in a fifth year option, not obviously an older player, not an older player, but missed the entire season or pretty much the entire season after coming back early on. I mean, they're such a top heavy roster. But now adding Minka Fitzpatrick just makes them even more top heavy. Yeah, that's kind of my question.

32:55Robert Mays: It's like if you want to trade Ramsey away, why would you wouldn't you rather have like a third round pick in 2026? is you're trying to reset what you are as a team rather than Minka Fitzpatrick, who's already expensive and is going to be 29 this year? The only reason I think that happened is because they could not find someone to eat Ramsey's salary. Like, I think it was just going to be so difficult for them to land a play. And, you know, get rid of a guy who's making$20 million a year. It was going to cost them, I think, 22 or$23 million after they already paid him$4 million this year. Like, that was always going to be a tough sell this late into the offseason.

33:30And there's just not a lot of teams who have that money to work with. And so I wonder if Fitzpatrick was kind of like the necessary evil just to justify getting this deal done. They could still consider trading Fitzpatrick. I want to be shocked if they moved him before the trade deadline. It feels like that is a situation where the Dolphins aren't tanking. I'm not saying they are, that they're going to start over. But I do think they're being more realistic about the faults that they've made in this process along the way than maybe a team like the Steelers have. And I think it really speaks to going back to our draft pick argument.

34:04You know, the idea that maybe trading draft picks for players has a downside. I know we saw the Rams do it very successfully, but those Dolphins moves for Chubb, for Hill. You know, Joe and Waddle was a trade up that worked out a little better, but trading a third run pick for Ramsey. I mean, when you're not only acquiring expensive players, but then also giving them new contracts and you're missing out on the cost control players that are part of those draft picks, those guys have to be superstars to make this work. And the Dolphins did not have them being superstars last year. And they're with those guys either struggling or gone.

34:36There's a real lack of core talent that's going to take those guys in place.

34:41Robert Mays: They could absolutely bottom out this year. Like there's 100 % chance that let's say two gets hurt again. And now you're, I think, pushing yourself to a spot where it's more likely than not that there'll be a bad team. And I think that's worth considering. The problem here is that when you're doing this, sometimes when you're hyper aggressive and the ways that you're trying to add talent, at least if those moves don't work out, like in free agency, for example, you're going to have these little peaks. But you're trying to offset that aggression with more patience and just more cost control and just control, period, because you're having you still have draft picks.

35:15Robert Mays: That's the problem here is that when all of this stuff doesn't work out now, when this era ends, look at the Dolphins roster. There are no rookie contract players on the Dolphins. You know what it kind of reminds me of? I think that they've been more successful doing this than the team I'm about to mention. But think about like the end of the Kyme Cardinals era where they traded away all of those picks for aging veterans. And when that doesn't work out, you failed twice because you failed to maximize who you're trying to be in the short term. And then you have no off ramp for what the next version of your roster is supposed to look like.

35:50Robert Mays: And then when Mani Austin for got there, they essentially had to spend two years undoing all of that and trying to accumulate as much draft capital as possible to get back even on a normal timeline as a franchise. And it kind of seems like the dolphins are approaching that. And to me, that's the sin of something like the Savanaya thing is like, you know, at some point in the next couple of years, you're going to have to restock the coffers, which is many rookie contract players as you can. So there's no way to justify trading away any picks right now when that is so clearly coming on the horizon.

36:26Just picturing Steve Kime looking at two stickers on the wall, trade for veteran in the first round or draft weird hybrid defender who we're not going to get anything out of. And he just, he's just staring you know like a bruce i don't know what to do oh um you're right i mean you're you're right but i i can see the dolphin saying hearing you say that and saying the one exception is we need to protect to our only hope our only prayer of making it through this and being competitive is if we keep to afloat and i i could see them justify selling out to do that over anything else and given how bad their offensive line looks on paper i i'm not saying it's a good move but i'm saying i could understand why they did it in the same way you can understand why the falcons made their move have you seen the dolphins depth chart or cornerback post jalen ramsey yes even with jalen ramsey it

37:14Robert Mays: was an absolute disaster and then look at safety it's now better but we were in a spot before this trade happened where i believe their two starting safeties on the depth chart were ife mel phone wound ashton davis like look at what they were allocating to all of their starting defensive backs outside of jalen ramsey and now the same thing is true outside of make fitzpatrick it's kind of what I mean. Like it's an extremely weird team. And to kind of put, to put a bow on this, here's what I would ask you. Okay. The Steelers, everything that they've done, even if I think you can poke holes in it and you can argue with some of it, I can at least understand the argument for if we are the best version of ourselves, this can work out.

37:54Robert Mays: And the case for the Steelers, I think goes this way. If the Steelers can get to a place where their young offensive line gels into a very, very good group. They're dominant on the ground. They have a number one receiver in DK Metcalf. And again, they can kind of be unconventional in the way they manufacture yards outside of that. And they get to a place where they're a slightly above average offense. And then the defense is a top five unit. They have the best pass rush in the league. Everything else is acceptable enough. That gets you to a place where I think you can at least be competitive with this group while not sacrificing too much in the coming years.

38:28Robert Mays: That's the best case scenario for the Steelers. I don't agree with how realistic it is, but I get the argument for it. What's the best case scenario for the Dolphins in 2025? Jalen Ramsey doesn't show up to practice with a armored truck telling you to trade him or give him a new deal. You just have peace and quiet. And I think sometimes that's what you want. I either there's no like. Again, I feel like this is more about acceptance. It's more about just accepting that we are not Jalen Ramsey is not the difference between us being a Super Bowl contender and a team that misses the postseason. And if that's the case, unfortunately, you're probably better off trading him.

39:10And that's what the conclusion they came to in April on both sides apparently came to in April. I think it's the best case scenario is that they hit more explosives than they did last year. Two is healthy all season. The offensive line is better. The running game is better when it was terrible last year. And the pass rush with Chubb and Phillips is healthy again. Chop Robinson, who was awesome last year, is a superstar. They have a great pass rush, and it covers up a secondary that looks truly disgusting at cornerback on paper and make a pick saw seven passes, and they win 11 games. I think it's very tough to see that happening, but I think they have to just assume we are going to be able to manufacture offense and maybe we'll just get a better pass rush and manufacture some turnovers on defense.

39:58Robert Mays: How well do you think they'll be able to manufacture offense without John O. Smith being what he was for that team last year? Because I do think that I think he was really important to the overall equation of what they were trying to be offensively last year. Like, I think we, we didn't talk about it that much because they weren't a relevant team. They were irrelevant so quickly because of two is injury, but the stylistic change in what the Dolphins offense was last year where they went from being a team that was near the bottom of the league in yards after catch pretty much every single year because of how they played to a team that was relying on it.

40:29Robert Mays: I do think John Smith was a very important piece of that. And unless Devon H and is going to replace most of that production and this version of the Dolphins offense, it's hard for me to imagine a world where they're better offensively on a per snap basis this year than they were last year. Cause when two was healthy, that was a really good offense last season yeah i i they could be better at running the football i think that's that's the answer because they were very bad at that last year they were bad and that's the 7a argument they weren't explosive and so it i do trust mike mcdaniel to evolve the offense i mean the 23 offense it's not like durham smith was you know a driving force in that offense i think you can evolve that offense with a healthy tyreek and a healthy jalen waddle to the point where you don't need the tight end to be a significant portion of what the offense is doing after the catch or you can manufacture stuff after the catch with your running backs or um is who's the dolphins lead tight end now by the way they don't really have one i mean that was one of the things i can't remember who reported it but it came out very quickly that now the dolphins are in the veteran tight end market because they traded johnny smith that gets me back to my original point it's like what is this about i mean it's michael mayer it's trading for michael mayer that that's the position you put yourself in i just don't i just don't really understand them do you think michael mayor's the uh modern greg olson get him on the right team and he's suddenly going to break out after i can't i can't believe that's the knife twist that you're going to have here as we get to the end of this you keep saying we're gonna get to the end of this and we are now uh 40 minutes into what was supposed to be a 15 minute conversation this is now the whole podcast this is exactly what's going to happen here i'm pretty sure that we've axed the mailbag part of this because we just spent 40 minutes talking about it i will say i again the last putting a on this.

42:13Robert Mays: I think I don't agree with the Steelers opinion of themselves, but at least I understand what they're trying to accomplish. I don't think I agree with the Dolphins opinion of themselves. And I also don't understand what they're trying to accomplish.

42:28I can understand why you would say that. And I respect what you're trying to accomplish. I'll leave it at that.

42:34Robert Mays: All right. Well, that was supposed to be a 15 minute discussion at the top of another podcast. That's just going to be what today's podcast is because there's no, there's no reason to force this into something else. So Bill Barnwell from ESPN, please let people know where they can check out the stuff that you are working on right now. Yes. ESPN.com. Um, the bag hall of fame, I believe is coming this week. I wrote it. Hopefully nobody else in the bag hall of fame gets traded between now and published date. Um, Dion is one of the players in the bag hall of fame. If he gets traded, I'll be very impressed.

43:06But, uh, I think that one, that's when I, I've been kicking around, I think for like seven years. So I'm happy it's finally done. And hopefully nobody gets mad at me. Uh, blessed the players. Any guesses? Do you have any, any bag hall of fame?

43:18Robert Mays: Kirk Cousins has got to be in there. Kirk Cousins is number one. Kirk Cousins has got to be in there. Uh, Kirk Cousins, Laramie Tunsil is, is, has to be in the ball. Laramie Tunsil has to be in the bag hall of fame. Those are the two that come to mind immediately. Dak is Dak on there. Dak is on there as well. Yeah. I'm just trying to think of guys who have consistently maximize their leverage at every single turn because not everyone does that. And so I think those three are probably at the top of the list for me. I'd have to do some more thinking a little deeper to come up with anybody else. Legendary cornerback who's not Deion Sanders.

43:57Robert Mays: Nnamdi Asamoah. Is he on there? No, no, not Nnamdi Asamoah. Although that's actually a pretty good one. I should have thought about him. I was saying Daryl Rivas. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Daryl Rivas did a very good job with that. Stephon Gilmore got paid a lot too. Stefan Gilmore is another good one. He got that. He got a free agent contract. Like there, there are a couple of guys I'm probably not thinking of, but those three are the first ones that come to mind. All right, please go check out the bag hall of fame and please go check out all of the work that Bill Barnwell is doing on ESPN.com.

44:23Robert Mays: Appreciate the time, buddy. Good to chat with you. Thanks buddy. All right. That's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Barnwell for joining us. We were originally going to have a show between my buddy, Sam Schwartzstein from Amazon and I today about the future of football. A lot of different things playing into that. Schematically, rules, analytics, how AI is playing into the NFL. We're instead going to run that a little bit later this week. So please be on the lookout for that. For today, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

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