Kyler Murray takes the reins & and other training camp stories worth caring about

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1:21Derrik Klassen: So you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Dave Hellman. We liked last week's training camp recap so much, we decided to run it back. There is a fire hose of news coming out of 32 different NFL training camps. So as we wait for the first preseason games of 2026, Derek Klassen and myself decided to react, catch up all the storylines happening, all the things we missed, just a training camp grab bag episode. Let's get right to it.

2:02Derrik Klassen: All right, Derek, we did this last week while Robert was out on the road. We had such a good time with it. We decided to go back. There's more stuff happening in all 32 training camps than you could possibly hope to keep track of, but we're going to do our best. My only complaint, I'm just furious at the timing because we're recording this a few hours before the preseason gets underway in earnest. There's six games on Thursday night. And then there's preseason football all through the weekend. And it's it's pretty sad how excited I am. Like, I'm I'm sure it happens this way every summer, but I feel even itchier for this than usual.

2:38Derrik Klassen: I just I need new data points. I need something new to react to instead of the same half dozen conversations.

2:45Dave Helman: No, don't feel sad. This is we're back, baby. Like, I feel I'm itching. I'm ready. Like I've gotten to the point where, listen, it's so fun doing like offseason projects and going back and watching all the old film. And how does the Texans defense solve this problem? All this stuff. It's we're recording this August 13th. I've watched about as much 2025 as I have wanted to watch. I'm ready for 2026 film.

3:08Derrik Klassen: Yeah, I just want to watch bullshit preseason footage of the rookies that I like doing stuff and and completely overreacting to it negatively and positively. Yeah, I'm ready for some social media propaganda. Before we get into all that, and I'm sure we'll have plenty of takeaways from what goes on in the first weekend of the preseason and everything after that. There's plenty of preseason football coming our way. But we're going to use this show, A, to catch up on new stuff that has happened in the last couple days. B, to flesh out things that maybe we missed, because we have been doing a lot of more evergreen conversations, picking top 10 defenses, projecting breakouts for the upcoming season.

3:53Derrik Klassen: And sometimes things slip through the cracks. Like, let's start out really obviously. I don't think we've had an official TAFs conversation about the Vikings deciding their quarterback battle. I know we've talked about it from every angle possible, And I don't think anybody on this show is surprised that Kyler Murray was named the quarterback. But I feel like we could still dedicate some time to it now that it's official and Kyler Murray is going to be QB one in Minnesota.

4:21Dave Helman: Well, it's funny. I think the last conversation we had about it was you and I doing this show a week ago and me saying, let's end the charade. Like this is the clearly the better quarterback here is going to be quarterback one. And that's where they've arrived. Like, and I think it was funny, too. I think the day before they uh announced that he was the quarterback I think they had done like a night practice um that was open to everybody and Kyler Murray looked not his best practice according to a lot of the reports and then he gets named the starter which is like obviously going to get a little bit of vitriol but then the practice following him being named he like apparently just lit it up so it's just funny how sometimes stuff like that works but I think now that we're here and now that it's decided I think we can all be a little bit more like we can actually start to get excited about what this thing might look like and be like, okay, he's getting all the reps that he's going to need.

5:09Dave Helman: And I'm, I'm just excited that we're here and that he's going to, he's going to be their quarterback now.

5:17Derrik Klassen: Just keep a jump to conclusions, Matt, in my kitchen at all times. Like I am much easier to fool with preseason hype. So I'll ask you, cause I'm, I'm pretty excited about what this might look like. And maybe, maybe you're not going to offer as disparate an opinion as I think because I know you've always you've always at least appreciated Kyler Murray even if you don't outright love him but I'm I'm curious for your thoughts on how good you think this could be because it's pretty easy for me to get carried away with with optimism about how this could go I mean I think in the best case scenario

5:53Dave Helman: they are like the surprise top six offense I don't know if it necessarily like I don't know if I would necessarily bet on that outcome, but you look at a quarterback who like he's done that before, like he's had runs with the Cardinals where he looks like an MVP and they're starting off seven and zero and he's throwing to one of the best receivers in the league. You know, in Arizona, it was DeAndre Hopkins for a while. Obviously now he's going to be playing with Justin Jefferson. I think Minnesota's line, if healthy, is like much better than it was two years ago. And I think even better than they showed last year, because again, I think just with some of the quarterback play limiting what they were able to do some of the injuries that they had I just don't think that they showed their best selves I think this year if they're a little bit healthier I think that unit has some potential to be pretty good Jordan Addison is still a good receiver like TJ Hawkinson I think is solid and Kevin O 'Connell has been a really good play caller in the past even if last year again was kind of shaky and so I just think that this situation is ripe for all of the were so burned by how weird and ugly last year was when they had the worst quarterback play in the league.

6:55Dave Helman: And if Kyler Murray is even average, like 85 % of what he's been at his best, that is enough for this to be a top 10 offense.

7:03Derrik Klassen: I think I'm just excited for a season where there really shouldn't be any excuse about what Kyler Murray is. I mean, barring some sort of major injury, let's go do it, man. Like I think more highly of Kyler Murray than most, and you're not going to have a better opportunity to show people that than this year. So at the very least, even if it, if it doesn't go well, I'll still have an answer about what Kyler Murray really is. So I'm, I'm excited for this to be a, I mean, a somewhat definitive statement about Kyler Murray, I guess. I mean, I'm sure his, whatever happens, his career is going to continue after this, But but this it's never going to be more opportune than this.

7:48Dave Helman: Yeah, this is his chance to make to make good on what he has been in the past and like what some of the cliff offenses look like. And obviously it'll look different in Minnesota. But like at his best, he was like the 10th best quarterback in the NFL. And that's not like, you know, I think, again, when he was at his MVP peaks, we were probably a little bit over our skis on how good he was going to be, how high he was going to ascend, because he does still have limitations given some of his size and stuff like that. but he's been a guy who at his best is like the ninth or 10th best in the league and the thing I want to reiterate about Kyler and like he's just never been bad he's had stretches where he's mediocre and he's maybe not playing up to his potential like he was uh you know especially the first half of last year but like even the 24 Cardinals where that was kind of a flawed team like he played above average football by any metric or standard like if you watch him and so he has frustrating moments but he's never been bad and he's going to an offense that But we said going into last year, we could throw a complete unknown in a quarterback and they would be good.

8:45Dave Helman: Obviously, that wasn't the case because the quarterback just wasn't good enough. But I think Kyler Murray is enough of a known that if you put that into what we all believe a good quarterback situation, we're going to get good offense out of it.

8:56Derrik Klassen: He was the 13th best quarterback in the league by EPA per play in 2024. I know what happened last year, but I want to believe, dammit, I'm okay just saying that. We'll see what happens. we don't have to spend a ton of time on J.J. McCarthy, but it's at least worth visiting in the wake of this decision. He seemed to say all of the right things. The decision was out of my control. He said several times talking to reporters that he wants to remain in Minnesota. Doesn't sound like he's going to request a trade or try to force his way out. I mean, I don't know how plausible that would be anyway. But I'm curious for your thoughts on whether we should hold out hope for some sort of next act for J.J.

9:39Derrik Klassen: McCarthy. I know exactly how bad it looked last year. He's still 23 years old. He's still a talented guy. And I just, I mean, if we've learned anything over the last five or six years, it's not to close the book on a guy's career too quickly. And so, I don't know. I'm intrigued to see. It's kind of hard for me to imagine a legitimate second chapter in Minnesota, but where this goes from here is interesting to me.

10:07Dave Helman: I think what I would say about the difference between McCarthy and some of the other, you know, revival projects we've seen for guys who were drafted, you know, in the top 10 guys like Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, obviously leaving Cleveland and going to what felt like half the league before he landed in Tampa Bay. Those guys, even if it obviously pittered out at the end with their first teams or whatever, they still played a lot of football before ultimately like the NFL decided to give up on them for a period and then move on. I think the J.J. McCarthy thing is almost more akin to either Zach Wilson or like Anthony Richardson with the Colts.

10:43Dave Helman: And obviously his is a little bit more injury wise, but they just got to a point where they were like, we have not gotten enough out of this. And I think the Colts are seem to be pretty done with Anthony Richardson. And I would guess the Vikings are at the point where when you go out and sign someone like Kyler Murray, you're kind of making a statement that we're done here. And so there's a chance that he does get a chance somewhere else and he gets reps somewhere else. But like you said, I think in Minnesota, I would be shocked if there's a second stint.

11:10Derrik Klassen: Yeah, I wanted to expound on that. If you take issue with it, I just, it seems practical to me because all right, if Kyler Murray has a great year, he's the Vikings will do what it takes to keep him. And Kyler is their quarterback moving forward. Even if Kyler struggles and this is a one-off bare minimum, you're going to bring in competition exactly like Kyler Murray next year. Like there's no scenario where JJ gets a uncontested shot at the starting job again. So like a best case scenario would be him entering into another quarterback competition next year. And maybe, maybe it's with a quarterback that isn't as established as Kyler.

11:51Derrik Klassen: And maybe it would be a more open competition, but I don't know. At the very least, he would have to really, really impressed to like win that opportunity again. And I just, I think it's more realistic that he winds up somewhere else either next year, or maybe he hangs out on the roster for two more years. But I just, I feel. And the other thing too is in a high profile situation like this, I think it makes more sense to give him a change of scenery and get that conversation off of your roster after a certain point. And I think too, like, I think when people look at Kyler Murray

12:25Dave Helman: because of his injury history, like Kyler Murray has missed time pretty much every year that he's played NFL football. He's a little, he's just a smaller guy. Like that's kind of just going to happen with him. And he's someone who runs around and takes a lot of hits. he's gotten better at protecting himself but you're still inviting hits given his play style with with the vikings quarterback two situation i i posted this on blue sky if the vikings are six and three at the end of october whatever it is and kyler murray has to miss two weeks are they playing jj or are they playing carson wentz did you see they're probably playing carson

12:57Derrik Klassen: wentz the same the same reports about how kyler lit it up after he won the job said that carson Wentz took his most ever reps with the twos in that same practice and the alarm bells went off in my head where I was like ah yes okay the veteran backup and before he got completely beat to shit and his shoulder fell off Carson Wentz was playing serviceable spot quarterback for the Vikings last

13:22Dave Helman: year that makes sense to me he was totally acceptable backup quarterback play like obviously he's Carson Wentz so there's still a couple of boneheaded plays like I remember the one where he just got like sought off on a blindside sack because he just was not ready for it to be coming. But he played pretty respectable football. I think his EPA per drop back was like 0.16 higher than J.J. McCarthy. It was like closer to like, you know, a little bit below league average, which like, again, if that's your backup quarterback coming off the bench for three weeks, you can get by and you can win some games that way.

13:52Derrik Klassen: my wish for JJ is that Mac Jones signs a lucrative deal in the spring and the 49ers are intrigued in acquiring his services to be the next reclamation project in their little factory over there. Like that, that's what I want for JJ McCarthy, but we'll see how it goes. You wanted to stick on a couple of the other 2024 quarterbacks, namely at the very least, there's a couple of injury updates with a few of them. Bo Nix is not going to play against Atlanta on Saturday night. Sean Payton's going to hold him out of the preseason opener, let his ankle, you know, get to a place where they feel as confident about it as possible.

14:36Derrik Klassen: That makes sense to me, but you also wanted to talk just about Bo Nix's training camp in general.

14:42Dave Helman: Yeah, this is more positive. You know, obviously with J.J. McCarthy, he's getting benched, and I've been somewhat, not even somewhat, I've been pretty critical of Bo Nix a lot on this show, but I at least so I wanted to shout out Nick Kosmider, who is our Broncos, our Broncos beat writer here at The Athletic. He wrote a really good article about what Sean Payton and Davis Webb are kind of looking at with Bo Nix and his development as a quarterback, because obviously he's been pretty productive his first two years in the league. But I think part of my criticisms with him is that it's been very specific.

15:15Dave Helman: Like he's not a guy who I think throws the middle of the field all that much because he doesn't want to hold onto the ball. He's like a guy who really is going to get the ball out and spit it out and hit his checkdowns or hit his first reads. Or he's going to be a guy who gets outside of the pocket. And that I think is also why they they boot as much as they do. It's why they RPO as much as they do. It's why they screen as much as they do. So they can just get the ball out of his hands. They've even said this offseason that like they want him to get a little bit better playing in the pocket and stay on time.

15:44Dave Helman: Sean Payton had a quote in this article where he was talking about within the framework of each passing play, you know, defining like three step drop, three step with no hitch, five step drop. Just like getting him more comfortable with the timing, timing that up with routes, getting him to hang in the pocket, get to second and third read deeper into the play without it just being like a touchdown to check down offense. which again, they've been successful that way. But I think when you bring in a Jalen Waddell, your third year in the system with a player, you want to expand things a little bit more.

16:13Dave Helman: And the fact that they're so cognizant of what that step is supposed to look like does give me some faith, especially with, again, like I know people don't like Sean Payton, the guy, and that's totally warranted and that's totally fine, but he's a kick-ass football coach.

16:28Derrik Klassen: It is funny to think, I assume Bo Nix doesn't get the same developmental faith as some other guys because he was an older player coming into the league. He spent a lot of time in college. He played a lot of college games. So it's a more reasonable estimation that what you see is what you get. But Sean Payton can coach some ball, man, and has a track record of working with quarterbacks and getting the most out of them. I mean, Drew Brees is obvious, but even across all the years he was in New Orleans, when he had to work with a backup, the results were usually pretty good. Like he had that awesome tear with Teddy Bridgewater.

17:06Derrik Klassen: I want to say it was, I think it was 2018 or 20. Yeah. It was like 2019 or something for easy. He went like three and one or four and one with Teddy Bridgewater. So I trust Sean Payton to get more out of Bo Nix than what we've seen. Like, even if he is an older player, I think it's so easy to assume that there's no ceiling for Bo Nix to hit. And, And maybe it's not as high of a ceiling as a younger, more developmental guy, but I assume there is more there and Sean Payton can find it.

17:36Dave Helman: And one that Sean Payton can find it in to like Bo Nix is really gifted. Like he's like really good athlete. He's got size. His arm is not like special, but I think more than clears the benchmark for being able to hit every throw on the field, being able to throw some of those deep routes on the far hash, stuff like that. He's got all the talent in the world to take some of those steps. And so that's why even if I've been critical to this point and I'm, you know, maybe not 100 percent confident that he's going to take those steps, he has all the talent in the world to be able to do all the stuff that you would want to take those next steps.

18:08Whereas sometimes we do this, you know, the development game with young quarterbacks and it's like they just don't necessarily have the talent to like tap into something above what they are.

18:18Dave Helman: But Knicks, I think, does have the talent, the arm talent, the athleticism to tap into something new.

18:23Derrik Klassen: In addition to Jalen Waddell, Pat Bryan is also this week's guy I can't stop hearing about. Every single Broncos training camp report is just gushing about the camp that he's having. So if the Broncos, because people are excited about Waddell and Cortland Sutton is a steady, good player. I don't know if people view the Broncos receiver core in totality as this frightening top of the league unit. But if Pat Bryant makes that sort of leap and you have Jalen Waddell and Cortland Sutton, I'm intrigued. I'm no intrigued is not the right word. I'm very excited about what this could be.

19:00Dave Helman: Yeah, it's it's been a slow burn with the Peyton offense and some of those guys coming on and them adding the talent. But like they've they've got every ingredient they need to be like a pretty a pretty sweet offense.

19:11Derrik Klassen: Which this means in the preseason because nobody's game planning and nobody's showing any real interesting scheme. but Davis Webb will also be calling the preseason games. So something to keep an eye on if you're checking in on Broncos preseason football. Actually, let's just keep it on the other side of that. I did just let's just go through the 2024 quarterbacks that are making headlines. Michael Penix Jr. says his ACL is the best in the world, apparently, even though ACLs are perfect, not ready to be hit, though. Like, I don't get the impression we're close to seeing him in the preseason.

19:47Dave Helman: certainly not on Saturday night I I really don't think so either and like this was kind of the concern with Michael Penix and like I I think he's a flawed player even on the field sometimes he's got some ups and downs but like if you look at him uh statistically he's not like nearly as bad as like JJ McCarthy well it's like Michael Penix has played like passable NFL footwork even if you know football even if it seems like maybe there's a limit it's just that all the health is up with him it's it's hard to get him the reps that he would need to take some of the development that he's going to get.

20:17Dave Helman: And especially now that they have another quarterback in the building who, you know, whatever you want to say about Tua, and I think he's pretty flawed as well. At least he's played a lot of NFL games and he's played well at a lot of NFL games. Whereas, you know, Michael Penix was previously fighting against Kirk Cousins, who like, I'm not sure either of his legs really worked at that point.

20:35Derrik Klassen: Michael Penix in the year started 35 % of his possible NFL games. And now he is behind a training camp, installing a new offense for a new coaching scheme. Kevin Stefanski and the new structure there did not draft him. And they liked Tua Tungavailoa enough to bring him in, even if it was on a cheap contract. They still identified him as a guy they were comfortable with. And I've been saying it all offseason, but it feels like an uphill battle to the point that Tua would have to get hurt for Pennix to have a shot, even though they haven't named a starter. That's just how it feels. Although, unfortunately, Tua getting hurt, it feels like a very real possibility to me.

21:18Derrik Klassen: But I'm just I'm not counting on Michael Penix Jr. getting like a long look at this, at least at the outset of the season. You mentioned that the article you were mentioning also talks about Caleb Williams as well, right? Let's like let's just do all of the 2024 quarterbacks while we're talking about this.

21:37Dave Helman: not that article but there have been a lot this training camp I think talking about what was kind of the this like a second part to the storyline with Caleb Williams last year was like Ben Johnson was pretty open about the fact and Caleb Williams was open about the fact that like they were throwing the kitchen sink at him as far as the playbook goes because the Ben Johnson offense I think at its best gives the quarterback a lot of flexibility it puts a lot on their plate it allows them to like see and handle a lot of things that's why they have so much motions and stuff that they do. It's why they run as many different personnel packages and formations and all this stuff.

22:08Dave Helman: And the quarterback has to be able to handle a lot of that. And I think that we saw with Caleb Williams for the first two months of last season, it was a lot. They were a team that was getting procedural penalties and they were a little bit late getting out of the huddle and stuff like that. Whereas I think at the end of last season, it started to come together a little bit more. And I think things started to crystallize. And Williams has talked about this offseason. I I think Ben has talked about like Caleb Williams is a little bit more comfortable with the playbook and how it seems. And so I think him just not having to spend all his mental energy on remembering play calls, remembering what motions are, all this stuff, and actually being able to spend a little bit more time thinking about like, hey, what is the defense trying to do to me?

22:49Dave Helman: I think that that is how you start to tap into what his next level is, because I think what's interesting about him is that I think some quarterbacks or some teams and how they handle their quarterback development is they kind of start at a lower level, like dumbing the game down almost, and then they try to build them up. I think it's a lot of what the Broncos have done with Bo Nix. It's like, we're going to do just what he's comfortable with, and we're going to slowly build this thing up over time. The Bears do the opposite with Caleb Williams, where it's like, we're going to throw everything at him and give him two years, and he's going to figure it out.

23:20Dave Helman: And I actually do think that that is a style of development that if the guy can handle it, and he can be forged in that fire, you get better and more impressive results.

23:30Derrik Klassen: It's funny the stuff you kind of take for granted. I hadn't thought about it. After the journey we went on with the Bears last year, I hadn't thought about it. But my wife, Carmen Vitale, was on Mina Kimes' show this week talking about how much better the Bears' offense and Caleb look compared to last training camp. And I hadn't thought in a long time about what a mess the Bears offense was in training camp and how beside himself Ben Johnson was on a regular basis about procedural stuff and stuff as simple as like getting in and out of the huddle and getting the play call in and like starting out from there this year, in addition to just growing as a player, obviously, but just having all of that shit down, I probably wasn't thinking hard enough about how much it means for Caleb, but a lot of the young guys in that offense as well.

24:24Dave Helman: I mean, that's another great point. Like, it's not just Caleb Williams that's a young guy. Like, outside of the offensive line, the entire room is young. Like, the receivers are young. Colson Loveland's a second player. Like, you know, DeAndre Swift is an older player, but Kyle Mnungay, their second back, is a younger player. Like, it's kind of an offense of guys who were in college not that long ago. And so the fact that Ben Johnson has kind of threw everything at them immediately, it's just between how good I think he is and how talented all of these players are like that's the other thing like Caleb Williams is as talented as a quarterback can be Luther Burden is unbelievably explosive Colson Loveland is a monster at tight end and even Roma like Roma Dunze is probably the like quote least talented of those four and he was still good at like talented enough to go in the top 10 in his draft like it's a phenomenally talented offense with a play calling that I think is teaching it incredibly well.

25:18Dave Helman: So I just, it's hard not to be excited about the Bears offense.

25:21Derrik Klassen: It's funny to think back to the week one Monday night game last year, where there was so much anticipation about what it was going to look like. And it was a mess, by the way, just like training camp led you to believe it might be. And I just, whatever the future holds for the Bears, like I don't have those concerns. Like, I feel like I know what to expect from the Bears offense, which, yeah, a year ago, that was just absolutely not the case. And yeah, it's fun to like remove yourself from the moment and think about it in a larger picture. All right. I think that's all that's all the young quarterback news, right?

25:59Derrik Klassen: I didn't miss anything. Did I

26:01Dave Helman: think the only one from that class we didn't talk about is Drake May. And I think him and AJ Brown are doing just fine.

26:06Derrik Klassen: So they're OK. They're joint practicing against the Colts. sounds like it's going fine. All right. We'll take a quick break then and we'll come back. We got plenty more training camp catch up to do. Hey, everyone. Michael Beller for behind the scenes at the athletic football show here. I run TAFs and our college football show, the audible at the athletic. And so that means I've got a lot of tasks on my plate. Most of those are fun to do. There's a reason why I'm in the business. But if I'm being honest, there's probably one or two that I wouldn't mind being able to shift off of my plate. And I think that's probably true for all of us.

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30:02Derrik Klassen: I mentioned things slip through the cracks sometimes when you're doing pre-programmed material during the course of training camp. I felt really bad, Derek. I was going through my notes and getting ready to do this show. And I realized, A, I don't think we've had a conversation about Debo Samuel re-signing in San Francisco after the Ricky Pearsall injury. And then I felt worse when I went back and looked and realized Debo signed with the Niners at the end of July. Like, that just completely flew under the radar. He's been there for a minute because, unfortunately, the Ricky Pearsall injury happened in the early, early days of training camp.

30:41Derrik Klassen: But it's worth revisiting and remembering that another older veteran is back on the San Francisco 49ers and hoping to turn back the clock.

30:51Dave Helman: I think it's kind of the combination of of everything, right? Like, I think Mike Evans and him staying healthy has been a big talking point. Obviously, the Ricky Pearsall thing in their wide receiver room. That is something that took up a lot of air. Dazon's dribbling. I think people seem to be pretty excited about how he's playing. And it seemed like he played pretty well in the joint practice they just had with, I believe, the Titans. And so like, there's just been so many other reasons to talk about the 49ers wide receiver core. Whereas with Debo Samuel, he's coming off a year, really a couple of years, obviously his last year with the Niners in 2024 was not his best work, I think.

31:26Dave Helman: And then he plays one year with the Washington Commanders. And he was, that team obviously kind of tanked and they just did not win very many games. Jaden Daniel gets hurt for a lot of the season. Defense is terrible. So I think we just kind of forgot about them. and I think there's this assumption that Demo Samuel was like completely useless for them I think he was a little bit misused and not his best but he still put up 700 yards last year which again isn't like anything crazy but if we're slotting him in here as the wide receiver three potentially on wide receiver like three and a half if you count Christian McCaffrey as a wide receiver on an offense that very obviously knows how to use him because this is where he was playing Pro Bowl football I have some amount of faith that again he's not going to get back to his peak but that like he will be a more useful player than I think what our memory of was him last year.

32:14I mean,

32:15Derrik Klassen: I would hope that Kyle Shanahan at least isn't going to misuse him.

32:18Dave Helman: Yeah. Right. Whether or not Evo does enough with his opportunities, who knows, but I don't think they're going to ask him to run like one-on-one routes into the boundary, the way that Washington was asking him to do all of last season.

32:30Derrik Klassen: This feels like a good opportunity to check in on the Niners beyond just being horrified about their injuries. and wondering if there's any truth to the substation conspiracy theories. Like, it was one hit after another throughout the early going of camp, and it sucks that Ricky Pearsall is out for the year. He was very high on my list of guys that I was excited to see this year, and so that was really disappointing. And we're dealing with Nick Bosa having tendinitis in his ACL right now. We'll see where that goes. But when you get away from the doom and gloom of just the day after day camp updates, I don't know.

33:12Derrik Klassen: Like what you just said paints a, at least given the circumstances, somewhat optimistic picture. And you factor in George Kittle is the latest guy. There are like eight dudes coming off of major ligament injuries who just seem like they're fine. And their teams expect them back sooner rather than later if they're not just back already. I don't know what's going on there, but I've been operating under the assumption all year that like, okay, George Kittle will be useful after Halloween. And that's great. But if you can get back and look anything like George Kittle faster than that, Mike Evans is already back to practice after the quad strain.

33:51Derrik Klassen: You mentioned people are excited about Derjan Stribling. if if Debo's got some in the tank and George Kittle is back faster than I gave him credit for yeah I'm not I'm not dooming and glooming about the 49ers this seems fine well and again like

34:07Dave Helman: the Debo thing is like Washington needed him to be their second best skill player on a kind of flawed offense the Niners need him to be there I mean if George Kittle is back like their fifth like it's just they're asking so much less of him than I think was the case in Washington so I think that there's a chance he can be fine I think that I think the defense I'm more curious about what it's actually going to come together as because I think this was a team where I think the corners and the secondary is better than it the overall numbers for the team showed last year because they couldn't rush the passer and they couldn't stop the run so it was just a situation where it was almost like the like inverse of like CJ Stroud with his offensive line it's like you're just always in bad situations so it's hard to look as good as you could be if the front comes together if fred warner looks like fred warner if nick bosta can come back at some point and be healthy like i just it's hard for me not to get excited about that defense as well not as like an elite unit but as actually being able to play football not i think that they could be good enough that they're not playing like 42 to 45 games against the bears again in in december

35:13Derrik Klassen: those those there was awesome to be fair there were some fun moments there with the bad 49ers defense though yeah i i'm waiting on bosa clarity before i just get fully optimistic but like it's so like you wake up every day for a week and there's bad 49ers news and there's a tendon there's a temptation to just push them to the side i'm i'm coming out of it i'm coming out of my 49ers funk as we're getting into preseason football. A couple other signings, much more recent ones, by the way, this was like something that spurred our desire to do this show is last night after we recorded the top 10 defenses show, the Steelers added a guy that you love.

35:56Derrik Klassen: They signed a Landon Roberts to their linebacker core, which I don't know if it drastically changes your outlook on the Steelers defense, but our outlook on the Steelers defense was already clearly really good. Like you drafted them in the top 10. I felt the same way. And now if they're just a little bit deeper at linebacker, I like that signing a lot.

36:16Dave Helman: I mean, I did. He's, I love him dearly. He's, I think I've said it before, but he is my player where like, relative to what he's actually accomplished and how good he is. He's the player that I love the most in the entire NFL. Um, but yeah, them adding him to, to just get depth in this room. Like currently I think their third linebacker would be, it would either be Carson Bruner who they drafted in the seventh round last year are Cole Holcomb, who I think had some moments in Washington like four or five years ago, but it's not really been that useful of a player recently. They do still have Malik Harrison on the roster, but I think even Harrison, I think has been a little bit more up and down than a guy like Roberts, where Roberts doesn't give you anything but coming downhill and banging in the run game.

36:52Dave Helman: But he does at least give you that in a way that, you know, I don't think he's going to start over Patrick Queen or Peyton Wilson, obviously, but he at least allows you to have a third linebacker you could put on the field. If you want to get a little bit heavier on base downs you can if teams come out in jumbo they come out in goal line packages like you do have a player like this who can be kind of just like a submarine go hit somebody take out a guard sort of player and um i do think that that is pretty pretty nice for a defense that like again patrick queen and peyton wilson can do some stuff and they're good athletes they are just not come down and hit a guard style of linebackers so this is this is a more pittsburgh sort of

37:28Derrik Klassen: signing here for your linebacker.

37:30Dave Helman: This is them returning to what they, what they once were. Yes.

37:34Derrik Klassen: I've said it to you before. I, I hope Patrick Graham can get a little bit more out of this linebacker group than what we've seen over the last couple of years. Cause like, and especially like PQ is a talented player. I know like he's not consistent. He's, he's, I mean, he was all pro that one year in Baltimore. I think that's, you know, that's a byproduct of playing next to Roquan Smith more than anything. But like, I think Patrick Graham could get more out of that than than what we saw last year specifically.

38:04Dave Helman: And Roberts was part of Graham doing that last year with the Raiders. Like if you look at the Raiders linebacker core last year, it was like Roberts, Devin White, Jamal Adams, if you want to call him that. Like it was just a bunch of guys and they were like a totally fine run defense. And so I think that that is a part of the reason that Graham brought him over. is that, you know, sometimes when coaches move places, they want to get at least a couple other guys that they're familiar with can help, you know, kind of understand the system and stuff like that. And so them bringing in a backer that they, he knows full well, understands his system, I think is a nice thing to have.

38:39Derrik Klassen: As long as we're, let's just talk about LSU linebackers for a second. I know, we did talk about Jamal Adams signing in Minnesota. I remember that. I don't know if we ever talked about Devin White also landing in Detroit during the early days of training camp? I miss that, no. So I don't know if that does anything for you, but we'll see if Kelvin Shepard can get anything out of Devin White after the 150 tackle season he had in Vegas last year.

39:06Dave Helman: I mean, I don't know, but I will say if at this point, Devin White is purely a send him forward or chase the quarterbacks, buy the quarterback, whatever sort of player, send him on blisses, send him on run stunts, all this stuff. So Kelvin Shepard isn't like the most blitz happy guy, but I do think he had some unique ways of how to use his backers and how to send some of his pressures last year. So like there's a chance that if he's just their guy off the bench or maybe he's going to compete with Rodriguez, I don't know. But it's nice depth to have with the way that they run their defense, I think.

39:39Derrik Klassen: Another signing that happened on Wednesday night, the Panthers lost Chris Brazold, a huge rookie receiver early in training camp. and they just go back to the well of tall guys by signing 6 '6", 240-pound Darren Waller, who had a nice season in Miami. I'll say that with my chest. And I went back and watched Darren Waller some this morning. Like, there's something there. I just love that the Panthers are obsessed with getting as many huge pass catchers as possible for Bryce Young.

40:10Dave Helman: I think that that's funny, especially to, like, this team. It's funny. The last time the Panthers did this around like 2015, 16, 17 with Kelvin Benjamin and Devin Funchess, just getting these guys who were like skyscrapers. Because I think the idea was that like Cam is a really good quarterback, but he's a little bit imperfect when it comes to ball placement. So if you just give them these big targets, it's going to work. Those guys weren't really good enough and you still needed Cam Newton to be God himself for that offense to work. and now it's it's the opposite where you have like the shortest quarterback in the league but because of the trajectory of the ball from a shorter quarterback and Kyler Murray has this issue as well if they miss they miss high and so getting the entire room to be 6 '3 plus it it sounds funny and it kind of sounds like the dumb guy way to build it it's like oh our short our short quarterback needs big guys but it's like it does make sense when you think about it like mechanically

41:08Derrik Klassen: I don't think it's a coincidence either. Darrell Waller had an amazing game against Carolina last year. And he, like a lot of the work that he did was going down the seam and getting high pointed balls from Tua. And he, he made some like crazy acrobatic plays. Like I think against the Steelers and the jets, he made like some acrobatic touchdown catches. Like there's still plenty of athleticism there. Do you like, And I understand what you're saying of like helping a slider quarterback out with a bigger target. Do you think like where where would the Panthers deploy Darrell Waller? Like is Bryce Young going to throw to him the way that like would maximize his ability?

41:52Dave Helman: I think between the 10 yard lines. No, but I do think that Darren Waller was really good in the in the end zone last year. And he was good to see he's specifically a target that you can kind of throw it a little bit high on the back line. and he's able to come down with it. And I think the fact that if they, like the other thing with, you know, we talk about, you know, short quarterbacks, I think having issues seeing the middle of the field generally, that becomes especially true in the red zone. Like Kyler Murray has always been a guy who tries to create in the red zone because he doesn't see it well.

42:19Dave Helman: I think Baker Mayfield sometimes can be a little bit up and down in the red zone because he's not as tall as some other guys. Like the shorter quarterbacks, I think just struggle a little bit to see it the way that you would want in the red zone. That's why they end up running and creating as much as they do. And so I think just going out and getting targets. Like, again, Waller, you can just chuck it up on the back line. Teddero McMillan, throw a 50-50 ball. Jalen Coker is 63, throw a 50-50 ball. Like, them just getting all these targets that if it really comes down to it, we can just chuck it to the back corner of the end zone and one of these guys is going to make a play.

42:49Dave Helman: I do, it's, again, it sounds like the dumb guy way to do it, but I actually genuinely think it makes a lot of sense.

42:55Derrik Klassen: Another fun Panthers note, as long as we're talking about them, Jonathan Brooks is going to play in the preseason opener this weekend, which I think will be his first preseason game ever. And just his fourth game for the Panthers period, like including the regular season too. I don't know how excited to be about that at this stage. He was drafted. I think he was the first running back off the board in 2024. So year three, I'm not, not to, not to say that he can't do it. I just, I don't even know what to expect, but that's a name that I want to watch.

43:30Dave Helman: I don't either. But yeah, I mean, again, he was a pretty talented back coming out of Texas. And just the fact that we haven't seen him at all, I think, makes it really difficult to figure out what he's going to be. I will say the good news for him, I think, is that this is an offensive line that I know the tackles are banged up. And obviously, in the preseason, this is not going to super matter. But like their interior, I think, does run block pretty well. And so if they can figure something out at the tackle situation going into the season, however they got to formulate it whether you know it's Walker and Freeling or you know however it's going to turn out I still think there's a chance that this can be like a pretty good run blocking unit and so if he can get average offensive line play that's at least you know it's better than us seeing him in his first like real NFL action in a while and him just being thrown behind like last year's Raiders offensive line or something like that three of the first four running backs

44:20Derrik Klassen: taken in 2024. Jonathan Brooks was first off the board. Then it was Trey Benson. Then Blake Corum had a nice year last year. I know there's a lot of anticipation for him in LA. And then Marshawn Lloyd. That's a lot. We talked about Marshawn Lloyd last week. Like a lot of guys that have not played much football. Unfortunately, I, I hope that's, I hope this is the beginning of that changing. I remember loving all of those guys. And particularly for Brooks, who we just really haven't seen at all. And Lloyd, for that matter.

44:55Dave Helman: Right. At least, you know, three of those guys do have a runway. Like, it seems like the Rams are excited about Coram. They're saying he's more explosive this year. Like, Lloyd is going to have a runway to playing time. Brooks is potentially healthy. The only tough one is Trey Benson, who his team has added, like, four different running backs since the time that he got drafted.

45:13Derrik Klassen: One last note that I have. I'll see if you have any more in your notebook. but we've talked a lot this week about the injuries to Nate Wiggins and Marlon Humphrey, two big injury scares in the Baltimore secondary over the course of the week. Jesse Minner said Thursday that he thinks both of those guys could be back as early as next week. So a lot more precautionary. It sounds like than anything. I mean, and even if they're not back next week, I mean, Nate Wiggins was carted off. So to eat, to hear that he could be back in short order, even if it's two three weeks from now whatever the fact that it's not a season-ending secondary changing injury for the Ravens is definitely worth hitting on yeah the fact that they're not

45:55Dave Helman: really scared about week one is is a good sign like you just don't want to go into the season with the first game you playing like missing some guys the fact that they seem like this is going to be again if they've got to be a little bit precautious fine that totally makes sense you know Humphrey's a little bit of an older player Wiggins is a little bit of a slighter player so maybe you just want to be a little bit cautious with some of these things. But yeah, the fact that those guys are going to be back, they're going to need them if they want to be an elite defense. They've obviously got some other bodies in the secondary that I think can be good for them.

46:24Dave Helman: But I mean, we talked about it on our swing player show, like Humphrey might be one of those players. So the fact that, and the Humphrey thing was contingent on Nate Wiggins looking good, which I think he is a really underrated player and he was awesome last year. But those two guys need to be healthy.

46:38Derrik Klassen: All right, we got a few more notes to hit, but that feels like a good spot for our second break. We'll be right back after this.

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48:48Derrik Klassen: All right, Derek, good show by you. This is exactly why it's worthwhile to do this show, because I know we hit the Laramie Tunsil injury in Washington at some point this week. But I think the Cade Mays injury in Detroit happened in between recordings. I don't know if we've had a chance to sit down with it, but newsflash, it sucks. And it ruined my day when I saw it. So Cade May is dealing with a wrist injury. I think he fractured a bone in his wrist. It's like an eight to 10 week injury, which I'm not going to call it a best case scenario. But if the Lions can have him back by midseason, at least that's not the end of the world.

49:28But I loved that signing.

49:30Derrik Klassen: I love what a big physical player he is and what that could have meant for their run game. And we I remember we talked about it over the summer. They did a nice job of protecting themselves on the interior of the offensive line. Like Juice Scruggs is in Detroit now. They got some young developmental players that could maybe help them there. So it's not the end of the world. But for a unit that we're really excited about and we think can be one of the best in the NFL, it just really sucked.

49:58Dave Helman: it it sucks because like if the offense was I think going to get back to really being like the second or third best offense in the NFL as opposed to the like ninth kind of like they were last year I think it was going to have to be contingent on the center play being significantly better and then just a small step forward I think from the two guards playing next to them who I think both showed some moments I think especially Christian Mahogany really had some moments when he's been healthy so I think that was really going to be that was going to be the driver for their success this year. But like you said, I think them having Scruggs at least insulates them from being worse than they were last year.

50:34Dave Helman: You know, last year the line wasn't perfect but they still generated some explosive plays and Panay Sewell was able to open up runways. They just weren't as down-to-down consistent as you wanted and I do think that if they have to play Scruggs it'll probably look more like it did last year. But that's at least them better than if they hadn't signed Scruggs and then they're in a spot where they're really scrambling and like, oh shit, we don't have anybody to play now that Cade Mays is hurt. And so I would have loved to see Cade Mays may play from from step one and I think him being a signing that they made this year makes it hurt more like obviously losing your center at any point is going to hurt but if this was a guy who had been around the team for three years all that stuff you know had some chemistry with the guards I think this would hurt a little bit less but because this is supposed to be his first training camp first time in the new system first time playing with these guards first time playing with this quarterback him missing a lot of that time missing the first you know anywhere from the first like four to eight games depending on how that shakes out I do think that that's pretty tough

51:32Derrik Klassen: and we've brought it up before too it was a big contract but this is not a long time consistent starter in the NFL like half of almost half of his NFL starts in over his career happened last year and so I was really excited about it and I still am when he eventually gets back but But yeah, I think that's a solid point is maybe you feel a little less confidence about him just stepping in and not missing a beat. But to your point, you said, OK, maybe it'll look like it looked last year. Well, they were a top 10 offense last year. So right.

52:07Dave Helman: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the other thing. I think people are there's a little bit of an overreaction to like the sky is falling in Detroit. And I do think the defense has some sky is falling issues. But like. The offense was still really good for most of last year. And I think that they'll probably be better.

52:23Derrik Klassen: I think the problem is just that in our minds and maybe Kelvin Shepard will surprise us. I know Dan, it's so weird getting updates about Kirby Joseph and Brian Branch and like, like not, I mean, really Kirby Joseph more than Branch. And I think like Dan Campbell said earlier this week that Kirby Joseph might be on the Branch timeline, which is to say he's not ready right now, but we could have him early in the season. I'm taking everything I hear about it with a grain of salt. But I think the expectation is just that the offense has to be excellent to compensate for the defense. And losing somebody that you prioritized so much before you've played a game just really stings.

53:07Derrik Klassen: But I think once you sit in it for a couple of hours and mope about it, you're like, okay, well, if the offense looks like it did last year, it'll still be really damn good. Mm-hmm. Another signing I forgot to mention. I don't even, I don't know if we brought it up or not. I think Mays might have mentioned it briefly, but Jadeveon Clowney re-signing with the Houston Texans where he started his career. Fun first full circle moment. I think, yeah, you mentioned it on the top 10 defenses draft that he can fill the Derek Barnett role, basically. Just a fun, useful player going to a defense that didn't really need the help.

53:47Dave Helman: Yeah, like in real football terms, it was nice because I think if there was any issue that you could take with this roster, it's that if Will Anderson and Daniil Hunter were off the field, they just didn't have a whole lot going on. It was going to be like Dominique Robinson and Dylan Horton. So the fact that, you know, they kind of get Clowney, who had some moments last year, who is going to be able to replace what Derek Barnett gave them, which was like perfectly fine third player off the bench, sort of pass rush and run defense snaps. I love it. there also I had a moment with this signing I'm not a Texans fan like I'm not a South Carolina fan like none of that but there was something about seeing Jadavion Clowney sign back with the Texans that was like it made me like weirdly emotional because I think it was just a lot of like that 2014 class I technically started doing work in the 2013 class but the 2014 class was just more memorable for me like the seasons that Clowney had like that draft class the quarterbacks that were in that class like it was just such a memorable moment for me and I thought he was such an awesome player outside of the injury so to see him come back home so to speak and play for what is the coolest defense in the NFL in my opinion it was like a weirdly emotional moment for a team that like I don't actually have any sort of rooting interest for and you'll have a rooting interest for them now that you drafted them overall in the defense pool yeah now I have a rooting interest that they don't cost me a couple hundred dollars at dinner no it's it's

55:10Derrik Klassen: always cool to see stuff like that. And like Clowney, he probably he didn't live up to the hype, at least not as a Houston Texan, but had a very solid Houston career. And to get to go back to where it starts. And I am a Seattle Mariners fan. So it's understandable why it matters to me. But when King Griffey Jr. went back to Seattle at the very end of his career, and was just like a vibes guy and hit 19 home runs. It was awesome. And it like made my year, even though the Mariners were not a very good team. And I have higher aspirations for the Texans than the Seattle Mariners. But it's just, it's cool to see those sorts of storylines.

55:50Derrik Klassen: It's very similar to why I would be geeked if Aaron Donald does come out of retirement. It just, it speaks to like the younger, more optimistic version of myself.

56:00Dave Helman: Which again, 2014 draft class, It just made something about those guys going back home is cool.

56:05Derrik Klassen: For that matter, ask me if I got emotional at the clip of Odell Beckham and Malik neighbors doing footwork drills next to each other. That, I mean, how many, man, how many badasses from the 2014 draft class are like potentially back with their teams. The fact that it's Donald Odell and Clowney, that can't have happened that many times for like all of these guys to come back to where they started this late in their careers yeah I don't know that that's like a

56:36Dave Helman: really good question I don't know if there's any others because like there have been some guys who like you know I don't think Khalil Mack is going back to to the Raiders which I think they've moved since when he was drafted so I don't even know if that's like as you know it doesn't even feel like

56:49Derrik Klassen: as home as much if we're we're thinking about this in the moment if we're forgetting something cool So please hit us on Blue Sky or Twitter or email us or find us in the Discord. This is one of my favorite topics of conversation. Tell me what other older dudes are back with their teams, recapturing the vibes. Oh, okay. He's not back with his original team, but I wanted to bring up another senior citizen signing that did fly under the radar. Emmanuel Ogba is back with the Chiefs now. I guess that is a reunion, but it's not the team that drafted him, but probably worth bringing up.

57:26Dave Helman: I mean, they need D-line depth as much as they can get. You know, they've had a couple of banged up injuries there, and I still think that they're pretty unsettled on the edge. And also, I think last year, Ogba played a little bit, and he's gotten this way as he's gotten older and gotten a little bit bigger. He's played a little bit more of like a three-tech to five-tech role, depending on, you know, just the fronts that they're playing. I think him just being a bigger-bodied edge again is probably the best way to use him, but we'll see what they want to do.

57:56Derrik Klassen: Okay, that does officially empty out my notebook. Am I forgetting anything that you really wanted to talk about?

58:03Dave Helman: No, I think we kind of emptied it here. I think that that's all I got.

58:07Derrik Klassen: I think that's fine for the record. Jordan Tyson strained his hamstring at Saints practice on Thursday. I don't have any further information, and I hope next time we record this was just a blip on the radar. I don't want to entertain that as a serious possibility.

58:24Dave Helman: Yeah, I'm hoping that means a whole lot of nothing sort of injury call.

58:29Derrik Klassen: It won't be a long wait for another show either way. We are doing a Sunday recording. Derek and I will be back. Like I said, we're doing all of this before the preseason madness ramps up. But from tonight until Sunday, it's preseason NFL football wall to wall. And on Sunday, we'll be getting back in the studio to recap, react. say what we thought was cool. I don't know. It's hard to know because preseason is so unpredictable and so many players are going to sit, but some cool shit's going to happen and football's back and I can't wait to talk about it with you in a few days.

59:06Dave Helman: I mean, I can't wait. Again, there's, I'm sure some of these preseason games are going to be disgusting and I'm going to feel disgusting for having watched the film of them the next morning, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.

59:18Derrik Klassen: The best time of year. Glad to be back. Until then, we appreciate it. For Derek, I am Dave. Dave, we will talk to you all next time. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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