Lessons learned from the league's best offenses

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2:34Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Really enjoyed today's show. We've done this a couple times over the years. I think it's a really good off-season exercise. Just going back and watching some of the best offenses in the NFL and trying to figure out what lessons, big picture-wise, we can take away from studying those teams. Here to have that discussion with me, it's our old buddy, Derek Klassen. And we also invited somebody whose opinion on this, I feel like is as good as anybody's because of the work that he does. And that's my friend, Bobby Peters, who runs the Substack, alertthepost.com, and also does a series of yearly manuals about the best offenses in the league.

3:09Robert Mays: You can go to Amazon, you can find those books. He wrote, guys, this off season on the Vikings, on the Lions, on the Bucks, on the Broncos. So just really deep dive studies every single spring about the offenses he finds most interesting. So I could think a few people better that would have a better perspective on what these offenses are doing and what fuels some of the quality that we've seen around the league. So let's get to that conversation with Bobby and Derek about the lessons that we've learned rewatching the best offenses in football.

3:43Robert Mays: this is one of my favorite shows that we've done over the last several years it's just such a good off-season exercise good off-season study it's a good time to learn things and this is the right time to do it just as we get into training camp these are the last few days of no football to react to and so the last few days where we can kind of take a breath and do some more off-season content Derek have you done this with us before and other off-seasons or is this your first off season or best lessons podcast? I think this is the first lessons podcast that I've done. Obviously I listened to all the ones that you had been doing with Nate and all that stuff beforehand, but I don't think I've been on this particular show yet.

4:20Robert Mays: I'm excited to have you. And I'm excited to have our guest today because in my opinion, he's the perfect person to do this with Bobby Peters from alert, the post, a wonderful football sub stack is you, if you are not subscribed and a man who has written, I don't know, about 75 guides to the best offenses in the NFL over the last five years or so. Bobby, how you doing, my friend? Pretty good. Pretty good. Thanks, Robert. It's an absolute joy to be joining you guys for this discussion. How many of these have you done? And when I refer to these every offseason, you do like deep dive, full game planning guides for the offenses that really just interest you most, the ones that you found most compelling from the previous season.

4:59Robert Mays: So this offseason you did which teams? so the total number i've lost count but this year i think i did as i'm looking up at my stack here i think i've got eight done so i did game planning books for the packers rams 49ers and dolphins and then i did the full complete offensive manuals which is more of like a concept based approach for the buccaneers the commanders and the vikings and then i also just finished up a broncos game planning book i wasn't planning on doing that one but i was really enjoying a lot of the stuff sean Peyton put together last year. So I'm like, I, I got to take off with, with this one and just finish this one up before training camp starts.

5:34Robert Mays: What makes me so happy about this is that we don't talk about this. We don't talk about which offenses you should be doing. You ask me sometimes, who do you think I, who do I think is doing interesting stuff and we bounce stuff off of each other, but you do this mostly independently. And if I had to pick the offenses that I would want to study in terms of what are they doing? What can we mine? What are the offenses that are building concepts and ideas that other teams should steal from? Those are probably like the eight to nine teams I would have picked. So it seems like you are the perfect person to include in this conversation.

6:02Yeah, no. And I think, I think the fascination lies with doing more with less, right? I think initially, I remember a couple of years ago, one of my favorite ones I did was I did a complete manual and then a game planning book on Ben Johnson's lions. And at the time, Jared Goff had just been completely disregarded by, you know, McVay and the Rams. And, you know, he seemed to be playing even better with Ben Johnson. So I wanted to see, okay, what are they doing? How is he, you know, one of the most efficient passers in the NFL. So just that general approach, you know, and not just quarterbacks, too, but even for the rest of the rest of the personnel.

6:32I think that's having that approach and that mindset. You can kind of you can find the most interesting stuff scheme wise if you're looking at it that way.

6:38Robert Mays: So what we're going to do is you guys are just kind of going to go back and forth with the lessons that you took away when you went back and watched the best offenses in the NFL from 2024. Bobby, you are our guest here. We're going to let you kick this off. The first lesson you wanted to chat about as you studied the best offenses in football from 2024. so one detail like like you said i studied about eight or nine in extreme detail and i think the one element of each offense that seemed to even even more so than previous years was um the elements of the screen game that just both uh the design of them and then the technique from from each offense just really stood out to me do you think that's more about you need a good screen game in order to fuel a good offense like the bucks is the first team that comes to mind for me.

7:23Robert Mays: We talked about their screen game all throughout last season. And if you look at like the total EPA generated on screens, they were the best team in the league. Like there's true tangible value in that. Or in your mind, is this, if you watch an offense that has a well designed screen game, it's often an indication that the other details on their offense are probably going to be pretty good too. Yeah, I think the latter is very true. I think when it comes to coaching, when it comes to coaching, I think you have to put a ton into the screen game. There's so many different elements and so many different moving parts that have to be acting as one, right?

7:56Sometimes, you know, pass protection, you know, not, you know, the offensive line doesn't quite know exactly what routes are going on downfield, but when we're calling a screen, all 11 have to be in sync. And I think a lot of, a lot of the teams throughout the league, sometimes the details just quite aren't there and you can see it on tape and you know, teams that are good in the screen game, it certainly helps the rest of your offense. If you can create easy explosive big plays in the screen game, I think it makes the rest of your offense seem easier.

8:19Robert Mays: Derek, did you have a screen specific one? I did. I was going to, it was going to be team specific and it was going to be the bucks because the bucks were far and away the best screen team in the league. They did it more than anyone else. And they on a yards per basis were like top three or something like that, which when you're doing it that often is pretty impressive. I mean, they were calling and I'm talking about specifically running back screens. And I don't know if Bobby, that's exactly what you're talking about too. Cause some teams were more receiver screen oriented. Like the Broncos are actually, they throw a lot more to the perimeter with their receivers, even with some of their tight ends.

8:48Whereas the Bucs, I felt were more of a, we're getting it out to the back. And really the Arizona Cardinals were the only other team that I thought was like super high on that list. And what I kind of find fascinating about those two teams specifically being like the heaviest running back screen teams in the league is they're also some of the heaviest gap scheme, the run games in the league. So like they are very used to having these linemen who can get out into space and move and like use these different pull techniques that might not look like a screen at first. And then you realize halfway through the play, oh, God, this guy's actually not going out in space to on a run play.

9:19He's he's leading out the running back on the perimeter. So I just thought it was kind of fascinating that if I were to imagine who are the two biggest like gap scheme run games in the NFL right now, it's probably teams like the Cardinals and the Bucks. And for them to be the teams that were also throwing to their running backs on screens the most, I thought was pretty interesting.

9:36Robert Mays: Is this really funny that this might be the biggest canary in the coal mine thing you could have? I'm looking at the numbers right now. She's on NGS EPA per drop back on all types of screens. Here are the top seven teams in the NFL from last year. The Cardinals were number one. The Bucks were number two. The Lions were number three. The Bills were number four. The Ravens were number five. The Broncos were sixth and the Rams were seventh. You can make a very serious argument that those are seven of the best, like 12 designed offenses in the league, Bobby. Yeah, definitely. And I, Derek, I want to build on one of the points you were making about, I didn't even think of that, that the, you know, the gap scheme correlation with, especially running back like slow screens out of the backfield, I think, you know, okay, what do we have on a gap scheme?

10:17We have a kickout. What do we have on a gap scheme? We have a lead blocker pulling through the hole. What do you have on screens? Right. We set a landmark. We have the first offensive lineman is usually the kickout player. And then you've got a second offensive lineman leading up through, you know, the sidewalk or the alley, whatever, you know, you want to call it. And then you have a third lineman who's going to peel back and what's often called the rat killer on the screen and there's a you know your line of being able to move in space the kickout technique and then the ability to lead up inside of that kickout block the the you know like you said the mechanics of it are pretty similar yeah it's about as close as you can get to like a passing game play easy type of thing to what you would simulate in the run game and that's why i think a lot of the teams that are like super heavy zone outside of maybe the lines i think they're more of a zone team than people might realize um but outside of them it's like a lot of the zone teams maybe aren't as good or it's a little bit trickier for them to find the true running back screen stuff.

11:07Whereas these gap scheme teams, it's like, we just have the lineman for this, man. We're ready for it.

11:11Robert Mays: As we go through some of these individual teams, Bobby, what sticks out to you about the Bucs screen game specifically when you go back and study some of the details of it? The Bucs, so they were definitely really good at running back screens, but some of their tunnel screens were incredible too. I just, you know, unique designs and obviously the execution. Like I remember there was one screen they called once against the Raiders and then once against the Panthers in one of their matchups where it was a wide receiver tunnel screen to a trips look. So they're throwing the ball out to the number one.

11:39So the outside receiver and then, you know, the other receivers, usually they'll typically block like, you know, the most dangerous man or one will go take the linebacker. Well, what they did was and especially in the Raiders matchup, they saw it was cover zero. So they ran like crossing routes. So they were crossing across the field to take the man, you know, the man coverage defenders away. So all we really needed was one kickout block. I think it was a 30 yard touchdown in that game. And it was one of the easiest walk-in touchdowns I think I saw on tape all season. And that's a creative adjustment.

12:05Usually, you know, some of the Andy Reid guys, they'll use, they'll run like a drive concept paired with a running back slow screen going the other way. But usually on these quick tunnel screens, the receivers at the point of attack are blocking. So that was one of the first times I saw that. And that really jumped out to me as a unique element. And there was a few other ones too within, you know, the tunnel screen category. And then some of my favorite screens, the Bucs also ran really well, were what I call filter screens. So they're called more generically their gaps, their gaps screen. So the offensive line will like kind of gap block away.

12:34OK, so the running back or tight end, whoever we're throwing the screen to is going to one one thousand to one thousand block the in man on the line of scrimmage, shed him and then turn inside. And then the place I tackle will down block away for two or three counts. And then he'll end up being the kickout block. And the Bucks had, I think, a low red zone touchdown against Baltimore. That looked beautiful. That was absolute clinic teach tape running that screen. So they ran a lot of different screens and they executed them all really well, which is something you rarely see. The Chiefs loves doing that with their tight ends to that like that.

13:02What you just described where he'll filter out for a second, kind of block, kind of block. He's actually the screen player. They love doing that.

13:08Robert Mays: And then Washington was also a team that used a ton of screens. And for them, it was a lot of wide receiver screens. And this is an offense that, again, you talk about doing more with less. I think that's why what Cliff and Bobby Johnson and that entire staff did last year stuck out to everybody just because we went into the season. not really having a high opinion of the overall talent level on that offense. And we're talking like a top five or six offense, according to a lot of metrics. And when you watch that screen game from last year, Bobby, in Washington, and you try to project it moving forward, what sort of role do you think that element has and what that Washington offense was and what they want to be?

13:44So I can't wait to see how this expands next season, especially with Debo coming into the fold now, too. Like, so last year they ran wide receiver tunnel screens. I believe it was 37 times an average, like five and a half yards per play on them. And, you know, looking at the tape, I'm like, there's they left a lot of meat on the bone here. There was a lot of times where, you know, the kick out block quite didn't just make it. You know, the receiver didn't work inside the landmark as far as he should have or, you know, little things like that. Like, oh, man, if they just if they were like a step quicker on this, they could have really busted something here and really gotten explosive.

14:13They I mean, Cliff is insanely creative with his backfield actions and his alignments to get to these types of screens. but the different actions from the offensive line really stuck out to me. So one of the main ways to run these quick tunnel screens is you'll have your play side tackle and your play side guard pass set for like a quick one count. OK, let the defender get upfield and then shed them and then there'll be the kick out and lead players. Right. That's one way to do it. Another way to get to these quick tunnel screens is have the offensive line block outside zone away for three hard steps.

14:41And then the same thing, play side tackle and play side guard will end up leading out. And you can get some big plays there if you're if you're playing defense where their linebackers are fast flowing to zone action. Right. And you don't necessarily have a, you know, a quarterback that you really want to get on the move, going back the other way on a keeper for whatever reason. Those two and then they got to him off gap, like gap run actions, too. Like they would fake trap going the other way or fake power going the other way and then use the center as the first kickout block. And then the backside guard would be the lead guy.

15:08And then they would even fake some of them. Some of the more beautiful ones. There's one against Baltimore that I loved in the red zone that they called off GT counter. so their backside guard so that so this the garden tackle to the side of the screen would pull so now our center and backside guard are the ones kicking out and leading coming all the way across the field that was a really a really fun one to see so they they block them and they dress them up really well and i think if they nail down the details a little bit more this year i think they we could see a huge explosion in their uh efficiency on them all right derek let's get to

15:35Robert Mays: your first one the number one lesson you took away re-watching the best offenses in the league from last year? Well, I think we can kind of keep on the theme of Washington, but I had, I had two teams here for what I'm going to say. And like, to me it is, and Robert, we talked about this a million times during the season, the value of protecting your offensive line. Like there are some teams where they don't have to protect the offensive line. The offensive line allows them to do other things. Whereas like the 2023 lions come to mind, the Eagles for however long, it's like their offensive line allows them to do things.

16:03But when I watch teams like Denver and Washington for different reasons. They do a very good job of insulating their offense from mistakes, their offensive line from mistakes, by the way that they're mixing up their protections, using chips and stuff like that. There's a stretch that I was rewatching to try to, I was trying to find like a very good like example that I could use for this specifically, even though we saw this all throughout the season in one of the games that Washington played against the giants. I think it was maybe week nine. There's a little stretch there where one play, they have both tight ends to the left side and they slide the entire line to that left side so that the two tight ends just take the end everybody else squeezes everyone else and then they let the running back be take the edge player on the right side so you've just got like you kind of wad up the middle of the offensive line so they're not having to think as much about like where the twist coming from where the backers like there's just no space for those guys to even get in like it just doesn't matter and jayden daniels was able to rip i think he threw like a 12 yard come back to the field uh it was a really nice throw shortly after that they go under center and they run play action with like g uh h counter like with the tight end and they use that as like a way to just get instead of having your tight end to the left side they like obviously pull him and make it look like counter and so now they've got more of their protection help to the right side and it's just one of those little things that i think stuff like that they did a really good job with consistently mixing up where their help was coming from because like it's one thing to say oh we use a lot of six and seven man protections but if you're not mixing up who is blocking where then like teams can just manipulate you and it happened to them one or two games this season but for the most part they did their menu of different protections was

17:42Robert Mays: awesome this stuff tells very nicely with something i knew bobby wanted to talk about bobby you had like an idea of percolating that was kind of like a half-baked lesson that you wanted to study a little bit more that was going to touch on kind of a similar idea just what these really buttoned up pass protection groups look like and just how almost non-negotiable it is in fueling a good offense. And I think one of the things that's interesting to me when you and I were talking about this earlier today is just, it's not necessarily about the rules of your pass protection unit, you know, being strict or anything like that.

18:18Robert Mays: It's almost about being flexible and dynamic enough to give you options in pass protection. I think Derek is alluding to that a little bit, but there are also more layers to how you can have that flexibility and wield it when you're trying to just build your pass protection plan overall. Definitely. And obviously the rules are important, but like we were, like we were talking about, I think, you know, there's only maybe like three or four different ways you can build those rules. I think some of that is relatively common throughout the NFL and, you know, some family, you know, coaching trees kind of, you know, we'll bucket those rules, you know, in their, in their own way.

18:49But I think like kind of what Derek was, was getting at, I think having diversity in your protection, having a deep bag of protections you can call kind of dissuades defensive coordinators from bringing certain looks. Like if you know, I mean, shoot, I could think of some teams that I've watched over the years where you, okay, they run their typical, you know, six man, you know, two, three jet protections, which is like the running back in the backfield, you know your typical six man protection or like a scat protection where, you know, the running backs free releasing or you're an empty. And those are like their only, their two main protections and they run those, you know, like 80, 80, 90 % of the time.

19:19If you're a defensive coordinator and you know that you can game up either a simulated pressure or an actual pressure to uh to get to the quarterback or to you know eat up the running back and pass protection but if you're if you're able to mix in um you know other types of seven man pass protections or you know obviously you know we're talking about the lions like i mean they run so many different play action protections that um you know they're really keeping defenses you know guessing on that side of it if you have a deep bag of of all those different uh assortments of protections and you run them well and you're sound on, you know, assignment wise, you're sound on who's blocking who.

19:50I think you can really dissuade a lot of those those blitzes because if the defensive coordinator, hey, if I don't know I'm getting a guy free on the quarterback and I'm bringing an extra guy or two, I'm not I'm exposing my secondary. And I don't want to do that if I if I don't know for a fact I can get a guy free on the quarterback.

20:04Robert Mays: One of the only things you can do as a defensive coordinator to dictate how the game will go to an offense is trying to manipulate protections. It's one of the only front foot things you have as a defensive coach. And I think as an offense, trying to do everything you can to make sure that defenses aren't dictating to you in that area of the game is hugely important. And Bobby, you talk about diversity of protections is one way to do that. But there's also an element of are we making sure that even if we're having to keep an extra body and protection, are we getting four and five guys out into the route?

20:35Robert Mays: What does that look like to you and who are some of the best teams at making sure they're kind of having their cake and eating it, too, in this area? So the Vikings and the Lions are the first two that come to mind. Matt LaFleur up in Green Bay also does a pretty good job with this, especially when I studied them in 23. I thought a lot of the stuff they were doing there was real good. So specific to, you know, when we call play action concepts, typically, you know, historically, you know, they're seven man pass pro. You're only getting one or two routes out and we're not we're not getting a ton of route distribution across the whole field.

21:05That's changed the last couple of years in the NFL. And these offenses that are that are really efficient off play action, like I was saying, especially the Vikings and the Lions. they're really good at getting four and five receivers out and if you're able to design your protection such that you can do that without like you know leaving you know an edge free for a nickel to run through or something of that sort you're you're creating the same reads you would in the drop back game but just with play action right so say you know the defense recognizes its play action all right they're dropping their linebackers into these dig windows you know they're getting flat defenders under these deep bench routes on the outside if you're a quarterback and your checkdowns are eating up you know and pass pro you've got nothing to do with the football Right.

21:40So now if we're getting these guys into the check downs to kind of, you know, replace these defenders that are getting depth. Now we really created a full a full play for our quarterback to read. And it's a play that has answers for these guys.

21:50Robert Mays: The Lions always jumps out to me. And you and I have talked about this for the last couple of years where they'll just have these designs where Laporte will just be one, two beats and then just release out into the flat as a check down. And the timing of it marries up perfectly. Right. So you think about just the timing and the mechanics of a play action pass, play action, fake. You're turning your head as a quarterback. You're looking at the downfield rock concepts that are unfolding. If those aren't there, then your tight end is releasing on that exact same timing as soon as your eyes are coming off of those downfield concepts.

22:18Robert Mays: And now you have an outlet for those plays. The Lions were doing that a couple of years ago in a way that I just hadn't seen a lot of teams do that effectively. And that's just one of the examples. When we talk about how many options and how many safeguards is your play caller building into the offense for your quarterback? Those are the types of things that we're talking about. And I think the Lions have done as good a job as anybody over the last couple of years of consistently building in those fail safes. And again, when we start talking about why is Ben Johnson the right sort of clay caller and architect for a quarterback and trying to teach him where his safe outlets are and trying to give him answers.

22:56Robert Mays: Those are some of the specific examples that we're talking about. And I think the last thing I would want to say is like the quarterback can also inform how versatile you can be in some of your pass protection stuff, specifically to me with like, how much can they handle not having any extra help and just being in five man protections? How much of that can they handle? Like, that's why the Bengals can play the way that they play. It's like they can handle Joe Burrow being in pure five man protections more than most quarterbacks because you know that he's going to get the ball out on time and he's very quick to check down.

23:25And when he does it, it's not a wasted play. It's usually a very good play. And so I think your quarterback can kind of help inform that. And I think it's a thing that young quarterbacks often have to learn, which I think is kind of what makes Jaden Daniels pretty impressive, is that that's not something that he had to learn. He obviously we just talked about how much the Washington did to help their offensive line with six and seven man protections. But they also did do a decent amount of five man stuff because in the event that they did that, Daniels was very good at either one getting outside of the pocket immediately or he was just quick to check down and be like, OK, I know there's pressure.

23:56Boom, we're just going to let it out. And it wasn't an issue. So I think the fact that he did that was impressive. And I think the biggest example of like how you saw this develop over a quarterback's career is go look at what Josh Allen could handle in like year two in terms of being able to handle the five man protection, get the ball out versus what he does now. Like he's probably one of the best empty protection quarterbacks in the league right now because it's very easy for him to just operate the check down and do stuff like that.

24:20Robert Mays: We don't often think about that being a byproduct of like quick processing ability is what you're able to do with the protections that you're using, not just how long the quarterback is holding onto the ball. And I actually think that's a very good thing to point out. Bobby, the only team we didn't really mention specifically with the protection stuff that I do think is worth mentioning, Derek alluded to them, but you've studied the Broncos a little bit. And I just feel like their, you know, their offensive line is full of good players. They've spent on that offensive line. Bowles is on a third contract.

24:48Robert Mays: They paid powers in McGlinchey and free agency. I mean, obviously they've used some resources. Quinn Miners is now one of the highest paid guards in the league, even if he was cheap, you know, as of last year. But in terms of like all pro level players, we don't really believe that about the Broncos heading into last season. And they had one of the best pass protection groups in the league. So what are some things just mechanically that that team is doing that you think is helping out that group and their quarterback as an extension? So the short answer to your question is full slide protection.

25:16We don't see a ton of this in the NFL. It's so it's seven man protection and drop back pass protection. And I think coaches tend to stray away from it because I think it's sometimes it locks up guys in pass pro and they're afraid to do that. You'll leave an extra, you know, removing some of those checkdowns down the field. But one one game that particularly comes to mind, just because I wrote about it for Alert the Post recently, was their their week three game against Tampa Bay. Right. Todd Bowles loves to bring blitzes. He brings nickels. He brings safeties. So how do we account for this best while still making sure our young quarterback, you know, Bo Nix in his third start?

25:48how do we account for this for a young quarterback? And full slide protection is probably the best answer when we're in drop back situations. So what that means is, you know, you got, say you got your tight end and you're running back to the right side and shotgun, the offensive line is going to slide to the left. So the weak side, so the, uh, the open side of the formation, right? We're going to leave our, so they're going to slide to the widest defender, right? So, so our tight end is going to stay one-on-one with the defensive end or end man on the line of scrimmage. And our running back is going to fit off of that, right?

26:15So he's going to work inside out from there. And if nobody comes in, he can run a check down over the ball. So what the Broncos like to do is Sean Payton over the years has been a huge, you know, choice concept, looky concept guy. And normally he'd run it from like empty protections. Well, when you got a quarterback in his third start and you got a blitz heavy coach, but you want to get to some of this stuff on third downs, you know, let's let's full slide it. And we'll give the quarterback an answer to the single receiver. If we get a one on one pressure look there, if we got a too high look, let's take advantage and run the choice concept to the other side.

26:43And they had some success with it in that game and then throughout the season, too. They ended up sticking with it, you know, as Nick's gained some more experience. So not being afraid to use those different answers, you know, some of those old school, you know, Sean Payne's got a deep bag of protections. But this was just one example of of, you know, a protection that that they made great use of for their young quarterback. And even kind of to that same point, really quickly, they the Broncos sprinted out a lot, like a lot more than other teams like they will, which is like a little bit in the full slide family kind of.

27:10but they would just sprint out and be like, the offensive line is not even going to be a part of this play, which is a very easy way to give them a playoff where, again, if a team is dropping back on average, I don't know, 30 times a game, and you can immediately say three or four of those plays, you're not even involved because we're just sprinting out. That is a way to kind of like just mitigate the chances that your offensive line even has a chance to ruin the play for you.

27:31Robert Mays: Bobby, a lot of the teams that we're talking about here, you know, and we've talked about this before, just as a general idea, like you watch the, the, the dolphins, for example, And I think it would be easy for me to talk to my wife and explain to her why the Dolphins offense is well designed, right? It's overt. It's very obvious. It's flashy in a way that you can kind of instantly understand and appreciate. The Broncos, I don't feel that way. Like the details and the quality of the Broncos offense is much quieter, but no less important. And I don't know how much they'll come up in the rest of this conversation.

28:04Robert Mays: So I wanted to drill down on them just a little bit. Like when you were trying to figure out and decide, I want to study the Broncos offense next as an offense that maybe is a little bit less flashy. There's less motion. There's less of this, like running a guy in motion through a bunch than there is in Tampa or L.A. or some of these other offenses. What do you think kind of explains the quality of the Broncos offense, even if some of those aspects are a little subtler? Yeah, Robert, that's a great point. And that's that's pretty spot on. I think the biggest thing is they're just so well coached in the details.

28:36Like they run a lot of old school classic concepts, right? Four verticals, scissors. You know, we talk about the choice stuff. You know, some of their quick game stuff is, you know, we can trace back all the way to the origins of the West Coast offense. And, you know, they run this stuff and they believe in it. And you can tell they coach it up. You know, the ball always goes to the right place on time to their quarterback as well coached and is what he needs to do. And the other thing, too, is whenever they call a lot of these plays, like a lot of these downfield shot plays, like they always get the look they want for them to write.

29:04So whether they're checks at the line of scrimmage or they're just game playing the heck out of them, they do a really good job of that. And one of the ones that sticks out to me is that opening drive touchdown against Buffalo in the playoffs where they call that scissors concept and they free up the outside number one receiver on a post route against quarters. And it's like, well, that's, you know, they just game planned up a touchdown, right? That's the look they wanted, the concept they want. I mean, that's just as classic as it gets, you know, for beating quarters coverage over the top. So that's one of the probably the best way I could explain it.

29:29And then what it made their offense fun for me this year was obviously we just talked about some of their full slide max pro tweaks that they incorporated with some concepts they don't usually write to kind of create, you know, to make the offense fit a rookie quarterback. Right. And then they also mixed in a lot of other stuff, too, like some of the stuff that stuck out to me were some of their pinpole RPOs. Right. So they're pulling a couple offensive linemen with the run play going one way. You know, we're locking the backside tackle on the defensive end so our quarterback doesn't get smoked.

29:53and then we're running you, whether it be a bubble screen or, you know, some sort of quick game concept to the other side of the field to take advantage. If we get a look, we don't want for the run play, or even if we get a look that we want to throw the quick game. I think mixing all that together, it was a nice infusion of, of his old school classic stuff with some modern twists to fit it to a rookie quarterback. And then also to kind of grow and evolve his offense further to a rookie quarterback that

30:16Robert Mays: did a shitload of that stuff in college. Like just little things that you're little tiny ways to make your quarterback comfortable. Either that's with well-designed classic stuff or stuff that he's used to. And again, it's not an offense where it feels as overt as some of these others, but it's just so clean and so kind of airtight that when you try to figure out why does this feel or look easy for some of these teams? With some teams, it's easy to do that. And with the Broncos, I think it's a little bit harder, but no less important. And Bobby, I think kind of to the point of the details and catering to your quarterback, especially a young one, which I think all the best offenses do, it's something I noticed watching Denver and I wanted to get your thoughts on was a lot of teams especially from like the Sean McVay you know Matt LaFleur style of tree they'll use the dig route as like a backside cutter um and so you know quarterback will go one to two and then he'll finally come back to the backside dig and it'll be a little bit later almost on you know if it comes from the left side or they'll hit it on the right hash almost something like that the Broncos use the dig route a lot as like the first read in a progression and he'll hit it almost immediately out of the break.

31:20And I just kind of thought it was fascinating that they use that route in particular differently than almost every other team does. And I wanted to know if you saw some of that as well. Yeah. So I think to your point, so when they would call dig routes, it would be like you said, it would be the front side. Right. So they you know, a lot of their teams, they'll call. So like the way they got to it was through the dagger concept. And a lot of teams will still run dagger. But I think like to your point, I think with the Broncos, they didn't they never threw or completed a ton of true backside digs.

31:46It was more that front side dig with dagger so what dagger is is the outside receiver is going to run that deep dig cut like that 15 18 yard in breaker coming from the outside and you know you've got a clear out coming from the inside and then some form of hook control underneath whether we're running a grab route from a tight end who's going to work out you know between the hash of the numbers or we're running a shallow from the other side of the field and um you know one of my favorite parts about studying sean payton's offense is dagger's always been a big part of his offense but i don't ever remember him running it nearly as much as he ran last year and there were some sweet variations that he got to like one particularly against New Orleans.

32:18I think it was week seven where they run it kind of out of like a cluster look. So not quite a bunch, not quite spread out. And they brought so the number two receiver ran the dig. So the middle receiver and then inside receiver, the number three receiver, he ran the clear out. Well, what did the number one receiver do? He ran the bender or the crosser from that side. So now we're running just typical three by one dagger with the shallow coming from the other side. But now we're beefing up the concept against man. Now that man defender on that corner has to fight through all that traffic. If he's going to chase that guy across the field, it was just such a simple adjustment to the concept where, Hey, if we get pre-snap indication, it's man like this, good luck, good luck covering that bender route working all the way across.

32:55Right. But if we, if we get zone, Hey, it's just our, it's our traditional dagger concept or high, low read on the hook, on the hook zone.

33:01Robert Mays: This is extremely anecdotal and I don't have numbers on this, but would really like to see them the same way we talked about screens being like a strong signal of quality of your offense. I have a sneaking of like a sneaking suspicion that the best dagger teams in football are the best offense teams in football. I think about the lions. I think about the Vikings. I think about the Packers and why I think this is actually directionally accurate. And more than just like a joke is that dagger is a really effective way to create explosives in a too high world as it's gotten more difficult to do. So the teams that are really good at figuring out how to manufacture explosive off of that concept specifically, I don't think it's an accident that most of those are the best offenses in the league.

33:45Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I think dagger might be my favorite drop back pass concept. Um, it's, it's your point, like dagger, it's good against everything, right? It's gotten, you can, you can, you can run it against basically anything and you're not, you're not in trouble. Um, and at the same time, like that tweak I just mentioned, okay, it might not be great against man, but Hey, let's add this little tweak here or there. It's so adaptable. Like you can get to it so many different ways. You can run it from drop back, you know, in the seven step world, you can get to it and play action.

34:11And then a lot of teams too, like, um, you know, like you said, the best teams that run it, they'll run like a mini dagger as well. So it'll be like a five-step version of it. So they're not pushed that receiver's not pushing up to 15, 18 yards. He's running like more of like, it looks like a basic cut, right? A basic dig. So at 10, but he's not square cutting it. He's still, you know, speed cutting it, but, um, there's, there's just so many different ways you can get to the concept and adapt it and kind of play off of it too. So yeah, I definitely agree with your point as a lover of dagger. that's such a great point because like if you know if you just want to run it as like a two man play action concept you're going to end up pulling the backers by virtue of it being a run concept and so they're going to step down and you're going to have that dig window behind them but a lot of teams too to your point if they want to run it out of trips you know the two outside receivers will be running that dagger concept and then the inside guy will just run like a little hitch you know pivot route under it to create like what i've seen called like spin concept and it just creates this high low and that gets the backer out of there so there's so many different ways to like all right how do we get this safety out of the way how do we get him deep and then how do we get this backer to step two steps up so he's out of the way and you just create this this void that again all the best offenses are really good at throwing into now

35:15Robert Mays: the vikings are the first thing that comes to mind with that is the vikings running those dagger and like mini dagger concepts out of those like trips and bunch looks they did so often last year we're going to talk about the vikings a little bit more here in a second as we discuss how to create explosive past concepts but first we're going to take our first quick break i know i know none of us really wants to admit it, but the end of the summer is approaching. Quince can help take some of the sting out of it though, because look, when you look good, you feel good. And maybe you don't mind that the summer is over and with the fall staples that Quince can provide, you are going to look very, very good.

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39:13Robert Mays: All right, Bobby, what's your next one here? Your next big picture lesson as we're talking about what we can learn studying the best offenses in the NFL. So every week, offensive coordinators, head coaches, they're looking to create explosive plays. They're trying to watch college tape. They're watching their own tape. Maybe not so much college tape during the season, but they're watching tape across the league. OK, who's who's creating the most explosives and how are they getting to it? And the Vikings were head and shoulders above the rest of the NFL with regard to this. Um, they, they do such a good job of tweaking base concepts that are pretty common in like the Shanahan McVay world, uh, to, to get, to get to these explosives.

39:50Yeah.

39:50Robert Mays: So the Vikings last season, they had 35 completions of 20 plus air yards, which was the most in the NFL. The league average was 22. So just think about that for a second. Essentially the Vikings are getting one more of those plays a game than the league average team. That's unbelievably important. Two first downs that they're just like creating out of thin air more than anyone else. And if you look at the percentage, the percentages of scoring on a drive where you get an explosive, if you have six drives a game and you're averaging one more 20 air yard completion per game than the average offense in the NFL, just think about what that means stacked up over the course of an entire year.

40:27Robert Mays: So they just did such a great job of finding these plays and pushing the ball down the field. And, you know, I think, Bobby, one of the things I found really interesting when you and I have been talking about this in the past is that they just don't accept what the general conventional wisdom is about how you create explosive off some of these concepts. So they'll run like a smash concept where there's like a hitch route or some sort of like return route underneath and then a corner from the inside receiver on that side behind it. So you're trying to find the corner route on that play for an explosive.

40:59Robert Mays: But if you watch the Vikings, they've got like 15 variations of that concept. So inherently, it's a decent way to seek out those plays. But then they've got five, six different layers to that in terms of how they're trying to find kind of riff on that idea in a way that maybe other teams aren't quite as creative in that space. Yeah, no. And that example specifically. Right. So we got that corner route. They do such a great job of creating the double moves off that stem. So a lot of times, you know, Justin Jefferson sees so much to. too high coverage, so much help over the top. It's hard to create opportunities for him down the field, but this was one way they would do it with that concept.

41:35So they would tag him on either what I call a cop route, which is a corner post, and he'd work back across the safety space, or he'd run what I call a POCO, which is a post corner. The POCO example, one of the best ones we could see is from week one. They hit an explosive to him in that game. And then an example of the cop route would have been, I believe week five against the Jets. I believe that was the London game. So if you wanted to go back and look for those explosives. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's absolutely incredible. both the amount of too high looks that they see because of Justin Jefferson, and they're still finding ways to push the ball down the field to him.

42:04I mean, if you're a coach of any level, you need to be studying this on how to find ways to get your number one receiver, the football down the field.

42:11Robert Mays: Do you have any explosive play creation ones there? Can I stepping on any of the points that you wanted to make? Not really. A lot of mine were a little bit more, uh, yeah, not specifically geared toward explosive plays, but I do think like, obviously the Vikings are one of the best example. And I think to me, it's more just not just that they're really good at creating explosives, but I think they are one of the teams that are very, because of Justin Jefferson's skillset, have realized that they're very comfortable letting their best receiver play from the slot, which that's a thing that's been happening for like five, six years now, but they probably weaponize that better than almost any other team in the NFL right now.

42:44Robert Mays: So it's funny that you say that because when I was going back and rewatching all of the Vikings explosives to prepare for this, one of the things that jumped out to me is how many explosives they were getting from either a slot alignment or a tight alignment. So it's your number one receiver, but he's in more of a cut split. So if you look at it, Minnesota was second in the NFL in total EPA generated on vertical throw. So 20 plus air yards out of the slot and they were in a slot or tight formations and they were incredibly efficient at it. And so as you take that kind of one step further, I feel like teams that are using these bunch formations effectively, and you can do it in a bunch of different ways and we can talk about that.

43:23Robert Mays: Those also are some of the best offenses in the NFL. So just looking at bunch formation percentages, period, last season in the league, here are some teams in the top 10 for their usage of bunch in terms of overall percentage of plays. The Bills are number one at 21.6%. The Rams are number three at about 20%. The Vikings are number five at about 19%. The Bucks were number seven and the Packers were number nine. So those are five offenses that we think consistently are going to come up here in the top nine. The Ravens and the Lions were tied for the league lead in play in yards per play out of bunch formations.

43:58Robert Mays: So the best offenses in the NFL are either the ones using these bunch formations the most, Bobby, or using these bunch formations more effectively than any other teams in the league. Yeah. And something one thing I did want to talk about was it's kind of like a twist to the bunch thing. So something recently in the NFL, the last year or two, especially, and the Vikings are probably the best example of this last year, is their use of what I call cluster formations. So a cluster is, and it probably gets in these stats that you're pulling, they're probably they probably get fit into this category, too.

44:29So the category of bunch that is. So a cluster, how I define a cluster is it's a loose bunch. So it's not completely spread out and we're not completely tight to each other either. We're probably, you know, each receiver probably has about four or five, you know, maybe like four or five yards of separation from each other. And what these things do is they create some hesitation from the defense. Right. So if the defense wants to stay in man coverage, say they have man coverage called, they're not necessarily going to check out of it because it's not a true bunch. And they could they could still play man to it.

44:55But all right. Good luck with these quick rubs and stuff that are going to happen right away. And at the same time, the Vikings fast motion to this stuff all the time. So they'll bring a receiver from the other side of the field and fast motion him. and they could snap the ball with him as the number three receiver, the number two or number one, or even stack behind somebody when they snap some of these. And, you know, if you're, if you're the defense on the side of the cluster and this guy's screaming across, how do you, and you're playing a pattern match coverage, how do you identify who's number two, who's number three, right?

45:22Who, who does the nickel relate to, right? All this stuff you have to kind of react to post snap. So, you know, it has benefits against man. It has benefits against pattern match coverages. And from zones, we can create leverage for routes this way too, right if we want an in breaker say we're running dagger all right you call it from a cluster all right your number one receiver he's going to spray outside he's going to outside release that corner has to he's going to be outside naturally so by by nature of alignment we have one inside leverage for our dick route so um the vikings and then the dolphins a couple years ago um i think it was like 22 and 23 and mike mcdaniel's early tenure they really pioneered some of this and i bet i think kevin o 'connell just kind of took it to the next level with with how they were attacking with it that's i'm so glad you brought that up with the bunch formation and and some of the motions because that was actually going to be the next thing I wanted to talk about was like teams the ways that they get defenses to not call man coverage because honestly I think if teams align if offenses aligned a little bit more static it's not that defenses don't have the corners to just run with and play man coverage like the average wide receiver two in the NFL probably is better than the average corner number two but you could get away with playing like a decent amount of man coverage if teams were more static but because of by nature of some of these tight formations whether it's just the cut splits that you were talking about robert or even some of these bunch formations when you're tighter the formation it's harder to play man because when the play snaps you are that much closer to just running straight into a linebacker or there's just so much more traffic that man coverage becomes difficult and then when we talk about some of these motions especially with like the through motions into the bunch like the team the falcons did a lot of this the rams do a lot of this the bucks do a lot of this it's all it's all the McVay teams by the way it's all of the McVay team teams specifically like the Shanahan guys actually do this a little bit less I noticed it's mostly the McVay guys and even like the Bengals were doing more of this last year with Jamar Chase like it really is like the McVay guys started to love this and again that through motion into the bunch creates immediate traffic and I think the hesitation NFL teams have with man coverage is less that oh we don't think our corner two can run with their receiver two it's like no it's sorting out these bunches at the snap of the ball when there's a motion going immediately I think they have trouble with that and that's why you know to flip it to the other side of the ball really quickly I think that's why the Lions were able to get away with playing so much man coverage is the way they taught sorting out bunches and having a player like Carlton Davis it was like they were just kind of uniquely equipped to deal with that in a way that almost every other offense in the league just wasn't I love this as a

47:49Robert Mays: general point and it's because there are some of these like quieter ways where it happens and I'm trying to think of the game, Bobby, you might remember it, but the Vikings last year had an explosive play that they created and it wasn't a bunch formation. It was actually just a two by two formation with a tight end. And then the number one receiver was in a cut split to the right. And the number one receiver ran like a big crossing route. I think it was Jordan Addison and the corner to that side ran right into the linebacker because they created a pick with the tight end. So that's not a bunch.

48:18Robert Mays: I mean, that's, but at the same time, you're still making it difficult to play man coverage because you're just cutting that split a little bit in order to get him closer to the tight end. So I think these really good offenses, whether it's creating leverage, creating traffic, they're just making things an ounce more difficult for the defense, even if what they're doing doesn't seem that hard to deal with. All right, Bobby, let's get to your third one here. Your next lesson that you learned rewatching some of the best offenses in the NFL is what? let's go with uh working to all uh working a concept to get all the receivers involved in the progression the ball um i think some of the best examples of this are the bucks and the lions the vikings kind of fit into this but i just finished cutting up the entire lion season maybe a month or two ago and there was one example um of them running a dagger rail concept so it's a variation of dagger where i made kind of a super cut of it where it's like a minute long and it's it's every to every it's every wide angle of Jared Goff hitting every single receiver in the progression.

49:22And it stood out to me when I was breaking them down, because like, you know, teams run concepts throughout the year, but you might not see a quarterback get to every single read in the progression. You know, maybe just he doesn't you know, he doesn't trust it. He's taken off before, you know, the pocket the pocket might not be clean. But to see that, you know, I'm sure it happens more often. But there was it just it just really stuck out to me. And what what that does is, you know, if your coach creates a concept that that is all purpose, you know, in the truest sense of it, you should be hitting all these guys throughout the season.

49:49Right. And that was just something that really stuck out to me. And that was probably the best example. But all the other offenses kind of have a form of that as well. Bobby, I actually have a question. Would you say that the offenses that are the best at that also have the quarterbacks who have been around for the longest? Because that to me feels like something that the quarterbacks who understand where the answers are, the offensive coordinator would be a little bit more inclined to put in plays that like you can get to that and like that's why kind of why jared golf comes to mind you know he's been around for i mean what he was drafted in 2016 he's he's now played in multiple different offenses and that was something in my opinion he couldn't do when he was two three years into the league i think mcveigh had to hold his hand a little bit more but now that he has played for eight years and he's seen a bunch of different offenses he worked with ben johnson for a lot longer it's a little bit easier for him to feel more comfortable getting to the fourth and fifth read in a progression in a way that you know i don't know maybe you know cj Stroud was great last year, but maybe he wouldn't have been as comfortable doing.

50:44Yeah, I think I think, you know, generally speaking, that's probably true. One one example that came to my mind of a young guy doing it really well was Jordan Love in 23. He, you know, whether it be the play action stuff or they're getting four or five out or some of their drop back stuff, he was he was working. You know, there's one specific concept that that they ran that now that now that you asked me that where, you know, they're running kind of that spin concept to the weak side of the formation out of empty. And they've got like a version of slot fade to the field. I want to say they hit the dig route on the spin, the underneath route on the spin and the slot fade.

51:16And then the kind of the corner control route for the slot fade, like a little hitch route out there at one point, too. So it's like that's an example of a young guy getting getting through it and working every receiver in, you know, within a concept, too. So I do think your point is generally true, though, because you gain more experience, you gain more trust. I think this is something Robert and I have talked about, too. Like if the play caller and quarterback are on the same page and they're in sync and the quarterback trusts the concept, he trusts the play caller. he's gonna be more inclined to you know step up in the pocket and kind of move along kind of like

51:43Robert Mays: how it's drawn up on the piece of paper and so i think that's where my mind goes derek is that i think the quarterback has something to do with it but the packers are a good example of this and the lions are a good example of this i think about the vikings last year for me it's my view on this is based on conversations i've had with quarterbacks and two guys that really come to mind are jared goff and sam darnell talking to jared last summer talking to sam darnell before the season last summer. And just this idea of having a play caller or an offensive architect, whoever's in charge of dictating and articulating the offense to you that can cleanly explain to you, okay, here's how we're going to try to manipulate the number one receiver to be open.

52:21Robert Mays: If he is not open, here is your second, third and fourth option. And here's why you would be going to those. And here's the pace at which you should be going to those. That dialogue, that to me is like a non-negotiable part of being a good offense in the NFL. You feel when that dialogue is clean and healthy between the offensive coordinator and the quarterback. And there's going to be so many moments on this show that are just me like trying to build hope and optimism for what the Bears are going to be. But when I think about the transition from the type of offense the Bears had last year to the type of offense that the Lions are, Bobby, that's the first place my mind goes is just seeing how clean that dialogue seemed to be for the Lions over the last couple of years and how disgusting and muddy it clearly was for the Bears last year.

53:04Robert Mays: That's the biggest switch you can flip, in my opinion, for going from an offense that feels disjointed to an offense that feels like it's clicking and clean. Yeah, no doubt. And I think even more so, and especially with Ben Johnson, so this is something that we can get excited on as Bears fans, is the number one job of an offensive coach, the coaching staff, the play caller, is to get the number one receiver in the progression open, right? So obviously we just got done saying we want to be able to work the whole progression as needed, but it's the coach's job to try to game plan that first guy in the progression open.

53:35And the Vikings are a really good example of this, too, where if we can build that trust and confidence in our quarterback that, OK, you know, seven, eight times out of 10, when you drop back, when that back foot hits the ground, you can let this ball go to your number one receiver. And you don't have to read the full field. You don't have to slide up. Our offensive line doesn't have to protect for an extra second or two. So the coaches, conversely, the teams that do work the whole progressions well, at the same time, they're hitting that first read the progression often as well. And that's something that just really sticks.

54:02I mean, how many times do we remember Jared Goff over the last couple of years? That back foot hits the ground. That ball's coming out. I mean, it's beautiful. Some of those in breakers, those guys throws, they're not thinking. And I mean that in the best way possible. Like they are just at Ryan Tannehill obviously was like this at his peak where it's like there's no thought to whether or not that 16 yard dig is open. They just knew it was supposed to be pre-snap and they're very willing to make that throw.

54:24Robert Mays: Bobby, when you're thinking about how to build the backside of concepts in order to make this easier for your quarterback and easier, make it easier for him to get to the third and fourth read in the progression. How do you conceive of the right ways to build those backside concepts? Like, are there teams that you've studied that you feel like, whether it's there are certain routes that they're putting in certain details on those routes that just by virtue of design, make this concept a little bit easier on their quarterbacks? Yeah. So I think, so I think generally speaking, when we start to build a full field pass concept, Right.

54:57We got it. We got like a two man concept to our front side. Right. So say we want to throw a choice route to Justin Jefferson. All right. So say, you know, we think based on down and distance, he's going to get a one on one. All right. So let's call the play. Oh, shoot. The defense brackets him. They rotate a safety down. They push, you know, a linebacker out of the box or whatever they do. They get to they get they double team Justin Jefferson. All right. How are we building our backside concepts to work into our quarterback's vision to replace these defenders that have left to, you know, basically get a three over two on that front side?

55:26And, you know, we kind of start with a backside dig, you know, as like one of the more common ways and then how you control the underneath defenders. There's a bunch of different ways you can do that. Another common way, Vikings and Bucks, you know, obviously McVay over the years, too, has used what I call like a jerk route underneath. So like they'll they'll run, you know, they'll make it look like a snag concept. So that receiver will sit down at four yards, stop. He'll kind of, you know, maybe kind of feel for a soft spot in the zone. If nothing's there, then he'll break in. So if, say, a hook defender gets under a dig window on the front side, like a dagger, or say they squeeze a choice route, okay, now we're working a receiver underneath into the quarterback's vision there.

56:00And then obviously the Shanahan guys over the years specialize in what I call that return route. So we're selling flat. We're selling a flat route for four or six hard steps, and then we're working back inside from there. So there's a lot of different ways you can get to it, but basically the teams that are good at it understand that they're replacing space and working back into the quarterback's vision.

56:20Robert Mays: Derek what's your next one here your next big picture lesson that you wanted to hit from studying the best offenses in football yeah my mine is a little bit more abstract and a little bit less pointed than some of the discussions we've we've been having so far but mine to me is like I think if you look at a lot of the best offenses in the league there's a lot of value to having a unique pitch and what I mean by that is like the handful of teams that I thought of when I got to this was the Bills leaning so far into six offensive linemen last year where where they get their sixth tackle into the game and they're just like we're gonna run the piss out of the ball like we're gonna really lean into all that stuff get under center be kind of a bully ball team that was kind of valuable in itself but also pretty interesting in the fact that they could also like i said earlier get into just pure spread five-man protections like the fact that they could oscillate so much and live in both worlds i thought was super valuable obviously with the eagles it's something like the tush push the lions probably ran more trick plays than anybody else which again And it's like kind of hard to like, you know, it's not like, oh, this one concept that they do that they lean into.

57:18But they it was felt like once or twice a game. It was something that you had never seen before. And then in a little bit more of like a repeatable way, Baltimore being the heaviest 12 personnel team in the league, like just the fact that I mean, and those are all of what the some of the five, six best offenses in the league. The fact that they all very clearly had one thing that if you were to game plan for 31 other teams in the NFL, you wouldn't have to deal with. but you show up to them on Tuesday meetings and it's like, Oh my God, what do we got to put in this week to deal with that? I do think there's a lot of value in something like that.

57:49Robert Mays: And then another grand example that comes to mind, maybe not from last year, but from the last few years is like all the 21 personnel you have to deal with when you play the Niners. So it's just like a page on your game plan, on your and your playbook that you have to go to that you just don't really utilize for 15 of the other weeks of the year, unless you're also playing the dolphins. And so it's a great point. It's just one unique thing that is not typically a problem for you that you have to tap into that week. And it almost inherently puts the offense at an advantage. And I will say, like, some of it is it's a little bit of like a self-fulfilling cycle, right?

58:23It's like the Bills can kind of get away with spending extra time being a six offensive lineman team because they were already a good offense. But that's them building a little extra thing to go from good to great with the Lions and being able to invest a little bit more in trick plays. it's well you've had the same coordinator for three years and you're already a well-run machine on the down-to-down stuff we have a little bit more flexibility and time to do something like that with the Eagles you obviously just have a very particular pairing with Jason Kelsey and your and your guards obviously now it's not Kelsey but when they started it it was and then with the Ravens just for so long they just drafted so many tight ends because that's what Greg Roman wanted and now they live in this world where they can be more of like a pure pass team but they still have two or three really good tight ends that they can put on the field and be a very different offense So sometimes you kind of stumble into it by already being good.

59:10But I think to that point, that's kind of how the good offenses stay really good year to year, as opposed to just kind of being these flashes in the pan that you inevitably get once or twice.

59:21Robert Mays: Let's take one more quick break. And then I want to get back with a question for Bobby. And then we'll hit a couple more lessons before we move before we get out of here. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. If you're anything like me, you know, you do just about anything for your pet. which is a nice sentiment but also a scary one because if you've ever owned a pet you know they run on their own logic they jump first they think later they ask questions never it's part of what makes them so lovable but it's also how you end up with surprise vet visits you didn't see coming that's why ASPCA pet health insurance helps cover eligible vet expenses so when those moments happen you can focus on getting your pet the care they may need instead of stressing over the cost the The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans that can fit your budget, your lifestyle, and even your pet's particular quirks.

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1:02:30Robert Mays: So I mentioned the Dolphins, Bobby, and I wanted to fit a conversation about the Dolphins in here somewhere because you've shown a lot of interest in the Dolphins offense over the last few years, and it is a really well-coached offense. And they really do evolve from year to year in compelling ways, but that doesn't always include them papering over their weaknesses. So you'll see them kind of change from year to year, but some of the inherent flaws to the offense haven't been fixed, which I can't really say that about any other team where it's like, I appreciate what they're doing, but the problems still haven't been fixed yet.

1:03:05Robert Mays: It's like if you rebuilt the Death Star and you put like 20 more guns on there, but the same port problem was still there. Like that's what the Dolphins are every single season. So like last year, they go from being this team that hits a ton of these chunk plays where they're pushing the ball down the field on some of these intermediate routes off play action to last season becoming one of the better like screen and space teams in the NFL and manufacturing yak for all of their best players. So they're doing stuff they've never done before. But again, they're not necessarily addressing what's wrong with the offense.

1:03:39Robert Mays: So when you think about how the Dolphins have been built and how it compares to some of these other teams, like what do you find most interesting about the overall trajectory from Mike McDaniel in that group? Yeah. Like you said, over the last three years, um, they've been absolutely fascinating. Cause like you said, every year they double down on what they're good at and they kind of build around it and kind of build like auxiliary stuff to compliment those things. Right. Um, you know, there's something, like you said, you talked about like those, those bang, those drift routes, those mini digs, those seven step, uh, cuts coming in, um, the, the deep benches, the deep digs off play action, that's stuff that they've, they've found ways to protect over the years and then my favorite examples are in the run game where they're running what a lot of coaches call full flow outside zone so i think like i formation you know think like with the 49ers right you got use check and kittle both working play side you know the eye you know tight end and fullback working towards the play side there's like 20 different ways you can do it you know and they do them based on game plan but um that's just the general idea they the dolphins do a tremendous job every week of finding new ways to get to those and finding ways to create double teams against the fronts they're seeing and then their perimeter run game with like crack toss concepts and crack seal.

1:04:44Like defenses know these concepts are coming because they see them every week, you know, on Dolphins tape and they know they're coming. And yet Miami still finds ways to create leverage and space with them. So, you know, myself as a coach, right? Like, okay, if I'm good at something and, you know, I want to keep being good at this, the Dolphins are a great team to study from that standpoint. So I'll continue to study them just because, you know, I find that insanely interesting, but like you said, there've been holes in their offense that they haven't quite addressed.

1:05:09Robert Mays: When you think about their coaching staff this year and the makeup of it and Bobby Slowick coming in to be like an added voice in that room. What sort of influence based on what he did in Houston? Obviously the Houston offense had tons of flaws, but we do this way too often where we look at an offense that has failed or an offense that has struggled and the coach that was in charge of that. And then he goes to get a very different job where he is just adding ideas and being another voice in the room as they build that offense. And they're like, oh, he's a terrible coach. Like, how can that work in any way?

1:05:40Robert Mays: Which is not the right way to think about this. It's just a very different role. So as you think about some of the strengths of what Houston was in the passing game and some of the relative weaknesses about what the Dolphins have been, how do you feel like his influence can kind of shape what we should expect from the Dolphins drop back game this year? So this is this is by far my my most interesting non play calling higher on the offensive side of the football in the NFL this year. You know, maybe outside of some offensive line coach. I think what Bobby Sloa can bring to the table with Miami, if they what he did well in Houston marries really well with what Miami needs in their pass game.

1:06:13And specifically, this is with different types of five and seven step drop back pass concepts in passing situations. We remember CJ Stroud. I'm sure you guys are the numbers guys, so you can give me numbers on this. But when I studied the Texans in 23, they felt like they were insanely efficient on third downs. And a lot of that is just CJ Stroud dropping back, five step, seven step concepts, reading out the coverage and finding the open guy. And Sloick and the staff did a really good job of designing receivers open within that progression for him. And that's something that's that Miami hasn't really done that well, you know, in passing situations, you know, like third, you know, third mediums type type of situations with Mike McDaniel.

1:06:50So I think if you can kind of infuse some of that design within what they already do, well, I think we're really talking about an offense that could potentially take another step for an offense that hasn't taken that that next step, you know, the last couple of years. All right.

1:07:04Robert Mays: We got one more here from you, Derek, your last lesson that you learned going back and rewatching the best offenses in the league. Again, this is a little bit more abstract, but it actually is pointed to a particular team or at least the best example of it. I think that we saw last year, but I think the best offenses are not afraid to be something different from week to week or even month to month as the season goes on. And I think the best example that we got of that was Matt LaFleur. Like Matt, I think, I think Matt LaFleur. So if here's the way that I'm going to phrase some of the best play callers in the league.

1:07:36I think if I needed to get through an entire season, who would be my best play caller to me? It's probably like Sean McVay. If I had three of my starters missing and needed someone to put together the best play game plan, I'm probably calling up Matt LaFleur. And I think what you saw from that last year was like, obviously in the Malik Willis games, they did a lot of stuff with like almost turning into a triple option offense. But I think some of the most interesting little tweaks that they did throughout it was they got into a lot more like two back stuff, but not with another running back. They put Jaden Reed in the backfield a lot and they would do a lot of these split back concepts where they're either, you know, faking the behind the back give to Reed and then they're actually giving the ball to the running back or they're faking it to the running back and then they're throwing a swing to Jaden Reed.

1:08:17And I thought they did a really thoughtful job of stuff like that. But then even as the year went on, I think Matt LaFleur took that and went, OK, some on some of those concepts, the fake to Reed is Jordan Love is completely turning his back from the defense and giving, you know, faking read the ball. And the Niners had did some of this when they had to put Debo Samuel in the game a handful of years ago. But then when they started doing as the year went on is that instead of, you know, you've got run to the right, whatever the concept is, the quarterback just typically opens to that side and is going to hand the running back the ball.

1:08:48They did a lot of like if the run is to the right, Jordan Love is opening to his left and full spinning around. And it was just one of these little tweaks that they did that you could constantly see second level defenders kind of pausing and hesitating and i just kind of thought the fact that like matt lafleur was so confident just to be like oh this kind of worked a little bit in like week two and week three let's just sprinkle this into the rest of the offense for the rest of the year i just think having some of that like let's lean into this type of thing is i think a lot of the best play callers have a humility of like stumbling into stuff and just being like wait this is actually good let's let's keep rolling with it bobby you wanted to talk

1:09:21Robert Mays: about something that I think is a little bit connected to this when it comes to your last lesson. And that was just the idea of like these auxiliary runs that are kind of change-ups within your offense. And Derek, I think that kind of stuff from the Packers in those Malik Willis moments applies to that. And the Packers are one of these teams. The Packers are one of these teams that consistently has some of these really effective auxiliary run change-ups. And I think you could say the same thing about most of the best offenses in the NFL. Yeah, no. And I wanted to bring this up because you know obviously auxiliary runs have been around for a long time in the NFL um but it just seemed like teams that were the best at running the football this year really leaned into these more so taking a step back like an auxiliary run is a run that we don't see every week in the NFL it's not a huge part of the the game it's not a huge part of of the playbook right so like when we think of NFL run game we think of inside zone outside zone duo is probably the big three right and then power encounter kind of somewhere behind them right those are kind of like the big five families of of main run concepts so like auxiliary run examples are like, you know, even like pin pull can fit into this, right?

1:10:23Your wham schemes, your trap schemes. Those are just some examples, um, you know, that, that, uh, of them. And, um, you know, they're so critical for these teams because, you know, defenses in OTAs, in training camps, see power, they see duo, they see outside zone over and over and they rep and they, they, they find different ways to stop them. But when you're in a week, like Derek, like you're talking about, when you've got a week to prepare, right. And you're, and you're, um, you're, you're, you're going up against one of these defenses, okay, we can get really specific with some of these, these different run calls that we can put into the game plan.

1:10:54And, you know, yeah, we only call these a couple, a handful of times, but these are the ones that usually end up being the explosives, right? Like, you know, we usually, you know, get a nice, you know, and we could have a good average or a good clip for outside zone or duo or whatever, but you're going to get your explosives on these auxiliary runs and the best running schemes in the NFL made great use of this in 2024.

1:11:12Robert Mays: Give me some examples. Like what were your favorite auxiliary runs in the NFL last year? and who were the teams that deployed them the best? So a couple of examples. So first are the Lions. You know, I'm sure everybody's talked about, you know, the Lions run game on third downs, right? So if we're seeing, you know, like a wide front, you know, where we've got two wide three techniques, two wide nine techniques, that's a great time to run the ball, right? And if we call a short trap into that, we can easily pick up a first down. And Ben Johnson, the Lions did a ton of that. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers with Liam Cohen, the different ways that they designed jet sweeps to get the ball on the perimeter were just a ton of fun to study.

1:11:45So what they would do too is to get an extra blocker on the perimeter to get, to get a hat for a hat on the play side, you know, to account for like two high safeties, like a safety rotating down. What they would do is most of the time when they would run their jet sweeps is they would leave the play side defensive end unblocked. So when you're doing that, right, you have to make sure he's not going to blow up the play. And, you know, through the various designs that they, that they got to it, it was a fun, a ton. It was a lot of fun to study. And the Bucks had a pretty good average, average yards per carry on jet sweeps as well.

1:12:13And then one of my another explosive example of this is over over the years, we can all remember all the all the different explosives the Dolphins have gotten off of like their end arounds and their reverses. You know, on alert the post, the last couple of years, I've posted cut ups of full season clips of this stuff. And it's just absolute clinic teach tape for these end around. So when we say an end around, right, we're we're either we're faking a zone run one way or we're faking like counter one way. And then the receiver ends up carrying the ball after the play fake going back the other way.

1:12:40And there's a lot of different ways you can block them. And Miami utilizes a lot of different ways, you know, based on the different fronts and the different secondary contours they're seeing. And, you know, all those teams I mentioned and obviously some, you know, the Packers kind of dove into this a little bit more, too. You know, usually, you know, when I've studied them in the past, they're just straight, straight inside zone, straight mid zone, outside zone and straight duo. And like in 2020, that was their whole run game. Right. Matt LaFleur last year got really game planning with with a lot of different auxiliary runs that he was including in their game plan.

1:13:08So these these were a ton of fun to study throughout the league last year. and i love this point because i think for the longest time at least as long as i've been doing this job we always conceive of like a lot of run game stuff is in service of setting up like play actions and that's how you can get some of your explosives but i think what you're talking about bobby where like you can also use some of your base run concepts to get into the same formations and all this stuff to set up some of these weirder auxiliary runs that maybe maybe it's just it's a different polar it's your garden center instead of your center whatever the little tweak is you are effectively setting up and calling this particular tweak in service of trying to get an explosive it's not one of your base runs on purpose and of course some of that is because some of the angles you're trying to get to to your point are like based on certain fronts and maybe you wouldn't want to run it into whatever this defense's base you know nickel uh set is going to be but again on some of these you know maybe it's second and 12 and they're in in like a dime and you know weird formation it's like okay well that's a perfect time for us to do something weird.

1:14:05And so I really do think that this should be thought of almost in the same way that we think of like trying to generate play actions through explosive passes.

1:14:11Robert Mays: Well, and it's become harder to generate explosives off of play action because of the way that the defenses are playing, right? I mean, part of the move to like this Fangio tinged world where we're playing a lot of shell coverage is that you're dropping guys down into a lot of those play action windows that should lead to explosives. And so I think a lot of these things that we've talked about, these are lessons about how you try to find explosive plays and explosive offense within the world we now live in, in NFL defenses. Double moves off of some of these play action, off of some of these concepts, Bobby, where, all right, it's something traditional, but if you're throwing three different versions of that corner out at people, that's a way to find explosives in this world.

1:14:50Robert Mays: All these dagger concepts are ways to find explosives in this world. Auxiliary runs are a way to find explosives that take advantage of the way that defenses are playing. So in this current iteration of NFL defenses, how are we manufacturing ways to find explosive plays? I think almost every single one of the things that we have hit on today answers that question or serves that idea in some way. All right. That is all we've got for today. Bobby, sincerely appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Please let people know where they can check out all of the work that we have referenced on the show today.

1:15:27Yeah, the best place to start is my website, Substack, that I started a couple years ago, alertthepost.com. Up there at the top banner, I've got links to my cut-up library. And then, like we talked about a lot, I've written a lot of books. I was counting up the pages earlier. I think I've written over 2 ,000 pages this offseason on the different offenses. So I think I'm going to take a couple weeks off here before the season starts. But regardless, all my books are all linked. There's a banner at the top where you can click the book link and it'll take you to my Amazon author page. But also if you just Google my name, you know, I think my book, my book author page on Amazon comes up pretty quickly on there, too.

1:16:01And then I'm pretty active on Twitter. I like posting a lot of stuff. And I love discussion discussing this kind of stuff on Twitter that anybody that wants to. So my handle on Twitter is at B underscore Peters 12. And yeah.

1:16:13Robert Mays: People always ask me what resources should I use to learn more about football? If you if I if you were trying to, like, find stuff where I can just learn more about the game that's adjacent to the conversations you guys have on the show, where would you point me? Bobby stuff is one of the first things that I mentioned, go check out those books, go check out Bobby's work on his website. So highly encourage you guys to get yourself a subscription. And again, Bobby, sincerely appreciate the time, Derek. I'm not thanking you for anything. You have to, you get paid to be here. You have to be here. I'm paid to be here.

1:16:40Robert Mays: All right. We will be back tomorrow for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

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