Nine lessons we learned from the NFL's best defenses

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0:32Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mayes. Last week in this space, we talked about some of the lessons that we learned rewatching the best offenses in the NFL. What can we take from what teams like the Rams, the Bears, the Jags, some of the best constructed offenses in the league? What are they giving us and what does that mean for the 2026 season? What can other teams pick up on? What are the trends? What are the big picture ideas we should be focusing on? Well, if we're going to do it for offense, we've got to do it for defense. So that's what we did today. We dug into some of the lessons that we can learn going back and re-watching the best coach defenses or the best defenses in the NFL from a year ago.

1:09Robert Mays: Nate joined us last week to talk about the offenses. Today, joining me and Derek is our friend Cody Alexander from Match Quarters, who does a fantastic job breaking down all things defensive football, whether it be the NFL or college. So that's what we did today. We dug into the lessons we can learn from rewatching and revisiting the NFL's best defenses in 2025. So let's get to it right now.

1:41We did the offenses last week and we have to give equal time to both sides of the ball.

1:47Robert Mays: I mean, it would just be a slap in the face to the resurgent period that we've experienced for NFL defenses over the last few years. If we did not spend some time this summer digging into the lessons that we can also learn from the best defenses in the league. Last week, we had Nate on to help us dig through the offenses. Today, somebody whose expertise lies on the other side of the ball from match quarters, which is a fantastic resource on all things defensive football, college and the NFL. it is an old friend Cody Alexander Cody how you doing man doing great thanks for having me on guys very excited to dig into this similar to last week very simple here not a lot of details or direction with the prompt wanted both of you guys you and Derek to kind of come back with three to four big picture ideas thoughts lessons that you had after looking at studying refreshing revisiting the best defenses in the NFL Derek I think it's only fair that Cody started us off here.

2:46Robert Mays: He is the guest. He spends all day, every day thinking about this stuff. So I think we have to let him kick this thing off. It would be ridiculous if we didn't. Half of my stuff is research from the stuff that he was doing. So we might as well start with him. I will say that I spent a decent amount of time on his website this morning. I'm more than willing to admit that. All right, Cody, let's dig into it. Your first big picture lesson you wanted to talk about after watching and revisiting and thinking about the best defenses in the NFL last season was what? I'm going to start with the Super Bowl champion head coach and saying that I know that he leads with every year when he installs the defense, and it is stop the run to have some fun.

3:25So you have to be able to stop the run in order to rush the passer on third down. I think we've kind of come full circle in this. I think people understand that running is an element within the game of football that is a non-negotiable. I think running the football statistically, like if you just look at, you know, basically bare minimum stats, just, you know, yards per carry, how many rushes a year, average, you know, the yardage, it really hasn't changed in the last five years, but it has changed how people are doing it. And so I think like if you look at the top defenses, Seattle, Houston, Denver, I'm going to even throw in the New Orleans Saints, especially on the back half of the year.

4:08These are defenses that understand structure and understand how to stop the run. And what that does is it multiplies how effective they are on the back end, because these are also the defenses that were really, really pressure heavy in terms of getting to the quarterback. And those two things are relating together. I mean, that was kind of like related to one of the things that I mentioned or was going to mention was specifically stopping the run on first down. And I actually, this was actually something that I kind of like changed my mind on slightly when I was doing the research. I think in my head, it's always like, well, you want to get them into second and eight so that it becomes a passing down for you.

4:47And I do think that that's true. But a lot of what the best defenses actually did was that on first downs, they were not immediately giving up a new set of downs. Like they were teams that were not giving up like immediate 10 yard gains. The Texans, the Broncos, the Seahawks, the Patriots, the Rams, and the Falcons were the only teams to allow less than a 10 % first down rate allowed on first downs. Like they're just not giving teams new series. And that goes back to what Cody is saying is like, well, if a team runs for 10 yards on first down and they're back to first down, well, they're back to having depend and they can do whatever they want on this down.

5:19Where if it's second and six, even if that's an okay down for the offense, I do think you're like, okay, you're in the middle of the series. There's maybe a little more pressure to keep things moving. And so to me, stopping the run on first down specifically was like a huge portion of this.

5:33Robert Mays: I also think it's not stopping. It's not even just based on down and distance situation. It's how, what are, what resources are you devoting to stopping the run on early downs in a world where we want to play in these light boxes, right? We want to play with these two high structures in these light boxes. If you're chasing the foundational kind of aspects of what the best defenses are, Seattle is the right place to start. Right. And it was funny earlier in the summer when I kept saying, I promise we're going to talk about the Seahawks a lot over the course of this summer, this show and others are the ones that I knew were coming.

6:03Robert Mays: where we were going to talk a lot about the Seahawks. So if you look at Seattle specifically, and you look at light box runs on any down and distance situation this year, they were fourth in total success rate on those runs. And I believe they faced up there with some of the most in the NFL. So they allowed a 38 % success rate on light box runs this year, Seattle did. The Rams were in the top five. The Texans were second overall. So a lot of these teams, it's not just that they're stopping the run. They're stopping the run out of light boxes and playing the way they want to. And Cody, what I think is so interesting is that we kind of have, all this stuff is going to tie together in the same way it did with the offensive stuff, right?

6:40Robert Mays: And so we have these teams that offenses are getting heavier and they're getting heavier, I think, in order to take advantage of lighter bodies on defense. And I think you've saw, you saw a league wide, some teams play a little bit more base in order to match this stuff, but that also kind of plays into what offenses want you to do as a reaction to the bigger bodies they're putting on the field. And so these teams that can play these lighter bodies and still stop the run, that feels like the magic bullet to all of this. And Seattle is probably the best example of it. So let's talk about some of those things you're discussing, Cody, structurally, whether it's the fronts, some of the pressures you can bring, all of the different things that these really good defenses are doing in order to survive in these light boxes and still be able to stop the run.

7:26Yeah, I think it starts with we've seen a recommitment really within the last five years to paying interior offensive and defensive players on the line of scrimmage. And you cannot play a light box without having some sort of interior presence because what you're trying to do in this essence and really here's the thing that a lot of guys don't want to talk about. because when you get into the academia of football, you start talking about run-fit spacing and how many guys are attached to the box and people's eyes glaze over and they fall asleep. But I'll make it really simple. You really want to try and fit the box with six defenders.

8:10You know you're going to get a seventh or an eighth defender just depending on the coverage structure that you're using or just how it ends up fitting up. But if I can keep and contain the box with these six defenders, then I am going to change the math on the back end. And the way that you do that is you play a gap and a half on the inside. So you're having these two interior guys that are going to use the three guys in front of them. If they can use three to block two, I have one-on-ones on the outside. I haven't even gotten to the linebackers yet. So the linebackers can be patient. The safeties can now play from a too high shell.

8:56Everybody is now leveraged against the pass. We can now fit the run because we have free hitters at every level. That is the key to defending modern football is leverage the back end, use and allocate as few numbers as we can on the front end.

9:15Robert Mays: Seattle, obviously, it all comes down. It doesn't all come down to, but it starts with just talent level. And that's at the end of the season, Derek. I remember we kept kind of coming back to that when discussing Seattle's defense. It's like, well, you can try to copy some of this stuff structurally and you can use it as a baseline. But it really helps to have the Byron Murphys and the Leonard Williams is and the edges that are just massive bodies and just are so strong at the point of attack. You're you Chenin Uwosu's players like that. And Cody, you did a really good job breaking it down this week.

9:44Robert Mays: some of the early down run pressures that Seattle uses. And as part of some of those run pressures, they got Nicky Manwari lined up on the line of scrimmage to create some of these five-man fronts. How many teams can realistically use their nickel defender as a 220-pound will linebacker to do that? And so I think there are a lot of structural things that we can talk about, and I do want to talk about them, but acknowledging that the personnel is what allows you to drive a decent amount of this is an important place to start. It's a huge one. And I would say, too, like all the teams I mentioned earlier with that under 10 percent first down rate allowed, the Texans D-line is actually was like, I think, sneaky better than we thought it was last year.

10:23But like, think about how many guys the Broncos have. The Seahawks have what they have. The Patriots defense is built on what they had. The Rams interior D-line was really good. Like all those teams had that. And I do think part of it is what Cody is saying with like the being able to play gap and a half. These guys can just like, you know, peek into into the play side gap, fall back if they need to, all that sort of thing. I also think when you look at specifically teams like the Broncos, the Texans, the Seahawks, the Patriots, their interior players are also really good at like slashing across the line of scrimmage and stunting.

10:52And that can create run pressure without necessarily firing the backer immediately because you're creating these run through alleys. Like it's it's why Drake Thomas is able to do it's why Aziz Alshair is a good player, but he's also very specific in that he's just so quick to trigger and so quick to go. and they their whole defense their run fit system is like how do we create run throughs for him and henry tooto and they have the two perfect linebackers to do it and so obviously some teams are really good at just like immediately throwing bodies at the problem like minnesota they're kind of a unique team but some teams are good at not necessarily firing the backers immediately but being like hey we're gonna stunt this guy across the guard this should open up and as soon as you see it clear you gotta go what i think is so interesting is that a lot of the discussions

11:37Robert Mays: we've had about defenses reacting to the pre-snap motion world that's evolved and appeared over the last 10 years is that the back end of these defenses have gotten very static pre-snap you don't see a lot of movement you don't see a lot of guys flying around to the defense's benefit but one of the things i was going to say and it completely it totally ties into what you just said derek being dynamic up front and having that be where you feel so much of the movement, especially on early downs, that is a common thread among so many of these defenses. And it's one or the other. If you're not an early down pressure team, you're not like Minnesota.

12:14Robert Mays: You're more like Seattle. Seattle's in the top five, Cody, in your stunt rates, where they're moving the front so consistently. The Rams are one of those teams. The Chargers are in the top 10. And so if you're going to play in these light boxes, you can't just sit there and play in them. You got to do something. And whether that's run pressures or just stunts and movement, you feel, Cody, the best defenses in the league have these really dynamic fronts that are just creating tons of confusion, tons of kind of attacking mentality, even if it's not based in pure blitzing in the way that we can sometimes think about it.

12:50Yeah, and I want to put a caveat on the stunt rates because I did a big study on run fit structures and stunting and then blitzing. The stunt rates are actually for a lot of these teams are coming on third downs. But how does this affect?

13:07Robert Mays: Interesting, okay. Yeah, so how does it affect? Because this is the same thing because I thought the same thing and I started really getting into it. Stunting in the NFL on rundowns is actually not that much. I think it's like right around 4%, which is super low. What ends up happening is these, and I understand what you're saying, dynamic. These guys are moving from one gap to the other, but it's built within the structure and it's not necessarily a called or a quick stunt. So when you watch these teams, it's more of a fluid mentality. This is something that's been around really at the college level for over a decade because of how you have to fit the run when you have, you need to slow the linebackers down.

13:49But you can't do that without these premium players inside because at the NFL level, if you are going to have to move from one gap to the other, you have to be physically strong enough to do that. And one team that you did bring up was the Chargers. And the Chargers have really, they've kind of, Minter started this really when he had Puna Ford and Tier Tartt, was I'm just going to put two noses in the interior. I have these two thick defensive ends. We're going to just create a massive vice. Now, we're not going to have great pass rush, but you could argue on early downs. Pass rush is not a premium.

14:27It can actually hinder you if you're trying to attack the pass on early downs. And so what you see time and time again with a lot of these is, and I think, Derek, you mentioned it, of just like the stoutness of some of these defensive lines, whether it's Denver. The Denver gets away with having lighter edges because their interior is so stout. So what I've really noticed, even with Seattle, is like having a guy like Demarcus Lawrence, who is really a run-stopping defensive end. On the opposite end, you have more or less that hybrid edge. So you're building rooms within a room on the front, and you're not necessarily having just two light guys because the Patriots figured this out really quickly.

15:14It was like, oh, we have two guys that can't really hold up. Our run defense is going to have to be stout. What do we do? We have two really good inside linebackers who can take on guards. And so you look at all of these structures, but the common denominator is you are getting movement, but it's friction. It's not quick stunts to create early penetration. It's friction and they're moving across the face of these offensive linemen. All right.

15:40Robert Mays: I want to talk just a little bit quickly before we move on, because I did want to bring this up just about early down run pressures, Cody, and the teams you think are doing that well. Like who are the teams in your mind beyond just the gap and a half stuff, but actually sending more resources and more bodies to defend the run on early downs? Who are those teams in your mind that are doing that well? and what do you think are the hallmarks of what a well-constructed early down run pressure system looks like okay so you mentioned this because we have to talk about this really quickly the static alignments on early downs so the vikings are kind of an outlier in the way that they pressure on early downs the the buccaneers if you go and look at it they were they just were trying to manufacture pressure on every down it really didn't matter but the teams that are actually Todd Bowles, baby.

16:27The teams that were actually good at it were really relatively static. They were lower in blitz rates, but they were very pinpoint in what they were trying to do. So you're trying to, when we get under center, our vertical pressures. We're trying to attack you vertically because you're attacking us vertically through the run. Even if it's a wide zone, you're trying to get run through these vertical penetrating run throughs. So we're attacking kind of these A gaps. were in an odd front, meaning that we have five across. We're trying to hit you through the A gaps. The Saints were really good at this.

17:00The Patriots were really good at it. In fact, the Saints had the best efficiency on early downs. Then you go and you look at some of these other pressures where if we're getting gun runs or we're getting zone schemes, we're going to attack the B gap. That would be the Seahawks. I mean, I can't believe that the Patriots didn't have an answer. they had this on tape all year that the Seahawks were going to attack you through the B gap, primarily the weak side B gap, and they just never had an answer for it. But it destroys your run game. And that's because that B gap, if you study football, the B gap is the fulcrum of the modern football, of modern offense.

17:39Everything is predicated either off tackle or through the open B gap bubble, whether it's RPOs at the college and high school level, or it's just the path of least resistance when you're looking for something at the higher levels. And those teams are, that's the hallmark. I think Denver was a little unique in the way that they pressured with Hafunga after about week four, but it's still the same alleys. If you're under center, we're hitting the interior, we're making it bounce. We know you're not, think about this. The person that's not blocked on wide zone and duo is the corner. Why do you think the Seahawks got rid of Reguolen but were also one of the better defenses is because their corner's tackled.

18:19If you go and you look at all these top defenses, the corner's tackle because there's an inefficiency within the way that offenses block, and if your corner can tackle, then now you have that. How do you protect your nickel and your sub-packages? Run them through the B-gap. So it's these B-gap pressures, but then also matching the offense on the plane that they're working, whether it's vertical or horizontal. I actually have a quick question for you about some of those pressures, Cody. I think talking about some more of the vertical pressures where we're just trying to get straight into the backfield immediately, especially through the A-gap.

18:51Do you think that's a response at all to teams running a little bit more duo and just not giving them the double teams and not allowing them to clear your interior players vertically? 100%, because in those duos, you're going to get the double team. It creates a natural gap. The offense is okay with that because the running back is reading the frontside linebacker and then bouncing it frontside. It's not zoned. So that's the difference between inside zone and duo. In inside zone, I'm actually attacking the center, and I want to cut back. In duo, I'm going to keep it front side. I'm not going to work back side.

19:25So what defenses have done is saying, I'm going to quicken the pace. The running back is going to have to bounce right now. So you haven't been able to work up to the second level, and now you pretty much have a massive humanity. The other thing, too, is because it happens so quickly, if you come off of your double, the defensive lineman now has inside leverage. He now has the leverage on that guy. So it's like, I already own the leverage. It's really interesting when you break down these kind of simulated pressures that you're talking about. It's really the guy, it's really the lineman that ends up making the play a lot of times if it's not just a clean run through because that double team comes off and well, now you have a 330 pound dude just sitting there and the running back has no time to actually adjust.

20:08Robert Mays: All right, we're going to take our first quick break and then come back and let Derek get in the mix here.

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22:06Robert Mays: All right, Derek, your first one, your first big picture lesson after revisiting the best defenses in the league last year was what? Yeah, my first real big one, I'll stay up front and I'll stay with trying to be dynamic up front. A lot of the best defenses have some sort of hybrid edge linebacker player. Like almost all of these guys have one, whether it's Leo Chennault, Jalen Walker was this, Zach Bond and Jahad Campbell are this for the Eagles. Andrew Van Ginkle and Eric Wilson to like obviously Van Ginkle is a little bit more pass rusher Wilson's a little bit more linebacker but they are like the inverse of each other in that way Isaiah McDuffie actually for the Packers was doing a lot of this like almost all of these teams have a guy for this and I think that there are a couple of reasons yes Derek yes Derek Barnes the Lions I think there are a couple of reasons for this I think one it's like if you are in nickel I think you want a way to still be dynamic with your fronts and get into odd fronts if you want to which like then you can move that guy down to the edge you can get into some of these 5-1 fronts and do that that way I also think it's that if you are in base it still allows you to be multiple with your fronts and you're losing a little bit less in terms of coverage like is Derek Barnes as good as covering as a safety or a nickel or whatever no is he probably better at covering than whatever defensive end that you would end up being dropping off the line of scrimmage?

23:29Absolutely. And so I think it gives teams a lot of this like flexibility without really losing much in the run game, specifically setting the edge, because a lot of these guys are awesome at it. Like Derek Barnes is good at setting the edge. Eric Wilson, Leo Chennault is obviously incredible. Like a lot of these guys are really not any worse at defensive ends at doing that. You're obviously going to lose a little bit in terms of pure pass rush. But on first down, kind of like Cody was talking about earlier, that's just not, as big of a factor for you. And so I just think having that flexibility, almost all of the best defenses outside of a couple, right?

24:03Like Houston doesn't really have this guy, but they are very just like four down front, get after it. They don't really need one of those guys.

24:10Robert Mays: So before we talk about this, cause I'm curious about your viewpoint on this, Cody, I'm, I want to take just Houston as an idea because I'm wondering like, is there anything we can justifiably take from what the Texans are? I have a couple that I'm going to talk about, But like, are there that many things that you feel like you brought to this show from Houston? Because I feel like they're kind of the exception to this where it's like, ah, well, they just kind of do what they do and their players are better than everyone else. And they all play like they're a little bit unhinged. And so that's how they get by playing the way that they want to.

24:42Robert Mays: So the fact that Derek is like, yeah, they all have this except for the Texans. I feel like that's kind of a theme for a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about here. Yeah, this is I wrote I wrote a piece about them like during the season. I called them the anti-defense because they really, when you break it down, their nuance is actually in the way that they play their early downs in coverage-wise, whether they want to run quarters or cover three. If they feel like your tendency is to pass, they're going to try and play quarters. If they stop you, they're going to flip it to cover three because they know you're going to try and get right, and then now they're going to load the box.

25:17So they're playing off of that. But yeah, those five guys on the back end, they all run and hit, and then you have the two in you know you have the two d line in there and then those linebackers like derek said are perfect fits in this this is actually the iteration of the solid defense that i think that you really want is that we can live in a wide nine we can play quarters cover three and a little bit of cover one you and then kind of keep it at a coin flip on early downs of what we're going to do to just keep you honest and i think it's the perfect iteration but to your point it's pretty much player led.

25:51Robert Mays: So let's talk a little bit more about what Derek was discussing there, where you have these kind of hybrid players that you can walk down onto the edge to create some of these odd fronts. Cody, in your mind, as you've watched some of these defenses, and I mean, even some of the pressures that you're pointing out with Seattle, you need the defensive end, who's more of a true edge player to do some of this stuff and coverage and early downs, if you're going to do some of this pressure stuff. So what are the benefits in your mind of having a player like that and the flexibility that it gives you these linebackers that Derek's talking about well it changes the the snap like it changes the blocking right before the snap and so what you've seen a lot of times atlanta was really good we we haven't even mentioned the ellis brothers who are all hybrids um at this point but they walking a guy down like that may seem like just something very simple and that a offensive line should be able to figure out but when you're talking about going from a four down front and then to an odd front now it's five one uh that that changes maybe the way that you block and you're doing it at really late in the down i think the other added ability is even like if you look at a barns barns is actually a strong side this is the old school ted linebacker te for tied in he lines up on uh the tied in mcduffie you mentioned uh halfley going back into his four three roots using a ted linebacker on the tight in.

27:12If I'm going to play from a too high shell, I got to stop that tight end a little bit or at least create a chip. I need the look, the more I can get the tied into chip and the running back to chip, something that, you know, a lot of offensive guys don't talk about is that if we have to chip that guy, he's not going vertical. If he's not going vertical, he's not really a threat. So to me, that's really where you've seen defenses really kind of force the issue. Okay, we're going to be in base. The number advantage really might not be there, but I'm going to stack a guy on your tight end. That's going to create a problem.

27:43Or I'm going to walk a guy down on the weak side. I'm going to make you change your blocking. If you run a pass, it's okay because he doesn't necessarily have to blitz. He's just going to grab something out of the backfield. And like you mentioned, he's a better coverage defender than my edge linebacker that I have out there. So that's why I think Penny got the Penny stuff. Like if the five one with, you know, your typical Ford Alfred, you basically take your will linebacker out and you put a nickel in. that craze died quickly just because of the structural issues that we just are talking about.

28:16You basically have to run cover three all the time. If you don't, that edge has to be a dynamic player. Van Dinkle, there's only one of them. It's really hard to get that guy on the roster. So what you do is you say, let's just get into 4-2 and let's walk that guy down. You mentioned the static ability early in the down. I want that picture to look the exact same every single time. Well, if I'm looking at personnel and you have your nickel personnel out there, but then I'm going to run that nickel menu. Oh, you walked that guy down. Now it's an odd front. It just changes the way that you call plays.

28:49And it's a passive pressure for defenses. And it's a way to complicate that for the offense. I think the last thing that I would say about this too, it's a really good way to hide limited players. Like putting Frankie Louvaux on the line of scrimmage. Okay, he doesn't really have to read stuff as much. Like Leo Chennault, I think, sees the game well, but he's not like a good sideline to sideline runner. So let's just put him on the line of scrimmage and have him hit people. I actually like Demetrius Knight for the Bengals had a really tough season. Some of his best plays were when they just put him on the edge and said, hey man, can you set the edge for us?

29:19And he did a really good job of that. So I think that's another way for it too is defense is so much about like your weak link. Well, if we can hide his weakest parts and still make him functional and still have size on the field, it's a pretty good way to do it a lot of the times.

29:32Robert Mays: It's funny looking at, because the thing I'm about to talk about now, just like the ways that defenses want to play in terms of their personnel and the bodies they have on the field and the amount of light bodies they have on the field. That's a through line with some really good defenses. But there are some other examples totally on the other end of the spectrum. The Lions and the Vikings last year, per True Media, were dead last in the percentage of nickel they played. And some teams are lower on that list now because they play so much dime, right? Like the Chargers are in the bottom eight, but that's not because they're playing a lot of base defense.

30:00Robert Mays: With the Vikings and the Lions, it's because they're playing a shitload of base defense. the Chiefs are one of those teams that doesn't play a lot of nickel, but they are 33 % base. Well, that's all the teams that we're talking about here. One of the reasons that they can survive in base is because they have this very specific type of player that you're discussing, Derek. And so I don't think it's an accident that a lot of the defenses that are still pretty good units and are kind of drifting away from this nickel and dime meta that started to emerge are able to survive in part because of the specific skill sets you're pointing to.

30:32You just need a hybrid player somewhere. For some of these teams, it's their safety nickel type. For some of them, it's this linebacker hybrid edge guy.

30:39Robert Mays: As we talk about all this base defense, my next one is a lot of the best defenses in the league are refusing to play base defense. And you look at it right now. I'm just looking at nickel percentages in the exact same page. I was looking at the base defenses. Seattle's number two. Philly's number three. The Texans are number five. and you know there are two again it's it's complicated a little bit because it's not just nickel it's nickel and dime so if you look at it all the top if you look at the top 10 defenses the league last year almost all of them were ranked either in the top 10 and nickel percentage or the total snaps they had with at least five or six tbs on the field seattle houston philly jacksonville rams chargers who were 10th and five to six tbs seattle philly and houston all top five and nickel rate.

31:27Robert Mays: And if you look at the players on those teams specifically, Seattle, Houston, Philly, Rams, Chargers, every single one of them has a six foot, 200 pound nickel or bigger. Every single one of them. Like, I think that we've talked a lot about this, where you have these, these big nickels and the rise of these types of players and what this will mean. And is it worth chasing these type of guys? And there are enough of them, but the teams that have found them have really realized, Cody, the benefits of being able to play that way. Like the idea that the Seahawks and the Texans specifically can just hold up in these looks because Petrie and Imanwari are such viable run defenders, what it allows you to do as offenses are doing more and more and more to try to manipulate your personnel and make you play the way that they want to.

32:13Robert Mays: These defenses that just refuse to play into that game, they're creating an advantage for themselves before the ball is even snapped consistently. Yeah, my number two thing was nickel is a force multiplier. Because if you have a nickel that essentially allows you to line up against 12 personnel, there's really nothing the offense can do at that point. I think the other thing, too, with offenses is they're really cosplaying the run. They're getting 12 personnel, but we know they're probably going to carry one online tight end that's more of a blocking guy, and then they're going to have a move tight end.

32:48That's the hybrid. Well, if I have a high, if I'm in nickel, the numbers are in my advantage. And if I can live with, you know, a three, four yard gain here and there, I'm going to second and six is a passing down a lot of times. So it's like, look, I've got you in a passing down. I'm in nickel. I haven't changed my structure. I think that's the other thing too, is that the cat and mouse game of, of moving guys around the player personnel type. And then, you know, to go to the hybrid player of like, oh, now I can walk a guy down and And I don't have to ever get out of it's kind of the way that like McVay envisioned with his all 11.

33:25Right. Well, I never have to leave. So you have no idea. And I can run every single thing randomly. And you don't know what I'm in or what I'm doing.

33:35Robert Mays: It's exactly that's a perfect comparison. It's like it's it's truly like that mindset of I can do everything out of 11 personnel. I'm giving you nothing flipped to the defensive side of the ball. And I think, Derek, we've talked about this forever. why like the McVay McDonald kind of arms race between each other is so interesting. And I actually think, I don't think we said this on the offense show, but I think it's worth mentioning them being in the same division. In my opinion, this only accelerates what league wide evolution will look like in the NFL because they're literally going to play each other twice a year.

34:12Robert Mays: so you have all of these touch points with them having to deal with the next steps that the other is going to take to try to get the upper hand and so the how quick the cycle is going to continue because of that it's really cool like it's amazing that that is going to happen twice a year in perpetuity at this point and i think the way that cody just framed is a perfect example why it is and like yeah they're going to play each other every year for the next handful of years and that is the team, you know, the Niners are a good team, but those are like, you have to beat that other team where you have no shot at winning the division.

34:45Like if you go, if the Rams go 0-2 against the Seahawks or vice versa, division shot, like you cannot win it. And so I think the fact that it is such an important game is going to drive a lot. One of my first thoughts for like team that is all nickel and is able to hide everything and is really able to do whatever they want coverage wise, Sean McDermott's bills early on did a really, really good job with this where Teron Johnson was just like an absolute badass in the run game and it kind of allowed them to be a little bit ahead of the curve of like they were able to throw some of these cover rotations be a little bit lighter in the box and other teams because of what he was offering them um i want to expand on some of the nickel size stuff too because you brought up all the elite elite teams obviously had guys who were a little bit bigger i looked at even top 10 epa per play defenses in 2025 compared to 2018 In 2025, the average weight was 196.6 pounds.

35:38And I said six and a half of them were above 195. The reason I said six and a half is I counted two players for the Seahawks, both Devin Witherspoon and Emanwari. Witherspoon is under. Emanwari is over. But Witherspoon being under, like he obviously plays like he's over. So that's just one thing to note. In 2018, the average size was 191.1 pounds. And only three of those guys were above 195 pounds. Like the body types that we're getting there are as different as they possibly could be.

36:07Robert Mays: It's that's a crazy difference. That's a really, really good number just to illustrate like how much things have changed. I mean, anecdotally, like that's just how it used to be. Like your smallest corner that couldn't play outside, just play it in the nickel. And just we've gotten so far away from that. And the defenses who have really understood the assignment have reaped the benefits of it. And outside of just the nickel stuff, we've talked about this a little bit this summer. But Cody, one of the things I keep coming back to is just if offenses are going to try to dictate to you based on personnel, can you try to dictate back to them based on down and distance situation?

36:40Robert Mays: And so the teams, in my opinion, in the second half of the season that really leaned into this, to me, it's something that's worth watching. Like the Rams did it all year where if it's second and seven plus, they don't give a shit. If you're in 13 personnel or 12 personnel and whatever, second and seven plus, we're playing a lot of time. Like that is a get back on track passing situation. We're playing dime. You look at the numbers in the back half of the season. Seattle played 43 % dime on second and seven plus in the back half of the year. 43%. The league average was 7%. The Ravens were at 36%.

37:15Robert Mays: The Rams were at 25%. The Chargers were at 22%. A lot of these teams that I think have the right ideas and are making sure that they're on the cutting edge with some of this stuff. they're using down and distance to their advantage. It's like, it doesn't really matter what you're trying to do to us. We're going to play this way based on the game situation, not about the situation you're presenting to us with personnel. And I wonder how many more teams are going to try to do that and try to get by that way as a way to make sure they're holding the pen last in these situations. Well, I think that's part of how analytics has really changed the way that I think defensively that you're looking at the game that used to be we're going to match personnel with personnel.

38:00You know, oh, I would love to know what the run and pass is, but I really think that there has been an emphasis really in the last 10 years of, hey, you really need to look at where are you on the field and then what is the run pass. If they're going to trot out 12 personnel, I'm staying in nickel on second and seven if we know here that this is a 70 % passing down. And it goes back to what we opened the show with. if I feel comfortable fitting with the guys that I have in the box and I feel like I can then stop the run or at least, hey, give you a three yard gain. And now, hey, now that's, you know, third medium.

38:37I think that's where a lot of these teams are saying, hey, I think we can win with our front. Why don't we just go ahead and play dime? It also goes back to the player personnel, you know, being able, do you have that dime player? Do you have a Derwin James? Do you have and even worry who can play that dime back? Or do we trust our nickel? And again, I laughed when you said it about Seattle. A lot of these things people are going to try and look at and be like, yeah, we can't do that because we don't have Witherspoon who can go nickel and then we don't have even worry who could basically line up at Will Linebacker on every play too.

39:09So nobody carries two nickels like that. But I do think that's where the player personnel has come in this past offseason. Trying to get three corners, trying to get three safeties. If we can do that, then we can start living in dime. I know I talked to an NFL coach last offseason. The more we can play dime, the better off we are going to be as a defense. And I really think that that leads into kind of what you're talking about heading into 2026 is playing the down in the field zone instead of just playing who's on the field.

39:38Robert Mays: Who's dictating to who? Who's making the decisions based on their own volition? Who's making the decisions because of what their opponent are doing? I think on offense and defense, that to me is just something that really creeped up last year. looking at the numbers I was curious when you were talking so first and 10 run rates in the NFL and the this season first and 10 to 20 is how I had it bucketed 52 52 run second and seven plus what do you think it is Derek run rate run rate I'll say like 37 32 oh wow so we go from 52 on first and 10 to 32 % on first and seven to 20. So if you're getting 32 % run on average, and that's even lifted by like the bears are at 44%, the Seahawks are at 42%.

40:23Robert Mays: There's only four teams above 40. So we're talking about 28 teams that are less than 40 % run. And we're talking about over half the league is less than 30 % run in those situations. Well, if that's the case, why would I ever allow you to make me think that you're going to run the ball in that situation. You got to prove it to me. And I think the best defenses in the league have done a very good job of, again, making sure they kind of have the upper hand and defining what those moments look like. All right, Cody, I believe you're up again. So nickel was nickel as a force multiplier. We, which we hit.

40:57Robert Mays: What's your next one? Yeah, I think we are officially a zone league. This is, we got to, we got to quit looking it. And this is going to change the way that we look at corners. We look at safeties. uh receivers too i mean i i feel like it's like it affects both sides of the ball in a really interesting way yeah it's it's interesting because i'm i'm working on something for early downs with it with the lions in fact just right now before i got on the show and i was like okay well what are the what is the zone rate on early downs so taking it from first and second second and seven is usually what i what i limit it for the early downs it's an 82 percent zone teams are not playing man on early downs you're just not doing it i mean even we saw this pivot from the browns i think people would be very surprised to find out that the lions who are typically man heavy they're actually running almost 21 quarters last year on early downs and i think that that and it's not necessarily split so if you want to dive in deeper we are now at a coin flip on early downs of whether it's cover three or quarters when you look at it analytically so not only are we 82 percent zone that's a super majority right that's a definite tendency but then also on these early downs we are playing half and half cover three and quarters on top of that now you factor in so the third factor to this is going to be that most teams are trying to play from a too high shell yeah that's a very difficult situation for an offensive coordinator who's going into an early down saying okay well um what do we want to do because i have no idea it's a coin flip i know we're getting zoned but that doesn't necessarily help me out in terms of matchups i remember talking to mcveigh a few years ago about this and just like the the term that he kept coming back to when it comes to the approach overall was just all-purpose place like we're at a point where the offense just needs all-purpose plays because the idea that in almost any situation in the league now outside of very specific examples where teams have really heavy tendencies.

43:05Robert Mays: You just can't dial up beaters, especially on early downs anymore, because you really have no idea what's happening. And I was going to say that it's not even just the similar rates of cover three and quarters. It's just that it's coming from the exact same shell beforehand. So not only do you not know what the coverage is going to be, you have no tell pre-snap with anything. There's no hint from what the defense is going to do. And so I'm curious, in terms of what defenses are thinking about with quarters versus cover three, in those early down situations, what do you think are the benefits to either approach?

43:40Robert Mays: Like, why would you play quarters versus cover three? Or is it, in your opinion, just about making sure you have the right mix to keep people off balance? Well, I think it's actually we're seeing a change in the way that people are approaching cover three. And I think they're dictating it off of formations. I think if you give them a two by two, you're probably going to get quarters. If you're getting any kind of three by one set, you're probably going to get a covered three. So we're seeing formationally based. If you, you know, we get motion all the time. Well, the easiest way to not look like you're adjusting to motion is to stay in a two high shell.

44:13We're also getting more field boundary, basically a collegiate style of defense. I know everybody's looking at the field and it's like, there is no field boundary. There is a little bit more space to the field when it's on the hash, putting my primary corner into the boundary. So all these structural issues are now affecting the offense. I think building quarters rules into your cover three allows you to create backstops because what do we get out of play action? You mentioned it about, I call them utility plays. So I call them utility blitzes. I call them utility plays. But having these plays that it doesn't matter whether it's run pass, first, second, they're going to work and we know exactly where to go.

44:54Well, defensively, what you're doing is you're adjusting to those. So you're saying if you want to run, if you think we're going to run cover three, you're probably going to run some sort of crossing route. Crossing routes are probably the number one thing. Okay, well, I'm going to have a safety sitting right there, away, backstop. I'm going to create layers in the intermediate. We're going to squeeze you out. We're going to start all these crossing routes that we see from these condensed sets. Well, quarters answers that. If we're in cover three, I've got a quarter safety playing on the other side.

45:24even though I'm in cover three. That's why I think the evolution of this has really pushed people to get away from the Pete Carroll system of like, we just show cover three, we play in it. Yeah, we have some toolboxes, but we're going to play everything from a cover two or basically a two high shell. And then we're going to have rules within it to where we can layer in it. And I think that's kind of what's given these offenses a hard time.

45:52Robert Mays: We talked about this last week. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I was going to say, too, like it's I think that's such a great point about like building in what kind of feels like quarters into cover three, because if you're starting from too high and you're rotating, let's say one of your safeties down and he ends up being a backstop for a crosser, that doesn't look that different from a quarter safety. you just like playing a poach or something like that it doesn't look that different until it's all declared like I guess you could get different tells based on like if you're truly in quarters like the Mike's footwork in his drop might be a little bit different but like you can't look at that and look at the weak safety and look at like you know what it's just too many things for the quarterback's eyes and so making that drop from the safety kind of look the same whether he's a hash safety whether he's like poaching whether he's truly coming down into the box that that is it's such a big reason why especially younger quarterbacks are getting really confused by a lot of this stuff.

46:46Robert Mays: We've just seen like the areas of the field that offenses have to attack because of this start to change. I mean it's when you look at a lot of the completions and a lot of the chunks that are coming on crossing routes they're very shallow crossing routes. There are things that are happening three or four or five yards in front of where the safeties are. It's just behind the linebackers. I mean these are throws that are four or five yards downfield if you're going to be running these crossing routes and then it's also just a lot of outbreaking routes to avoid those crossers brought it right into that safety that just sitting in the middle of the field it just it that area is just almost off limits if you're one of these early down play action teams and that used to be the most fertile area you could possibly attack was let's call it 10 yards 12 yards past the line of scrimmage just as the player is like crossing the center to the other direction.

47:36Robert Mays: Like that's where that safety is just sitting now. And we've just seen structurally offenses have to change how they want to approach this because of it. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat about a couple more of these. From taco night in Tulum to sushi in Tokyo, everybody's rewarding and postworthy with MX golds, four times membership rewards points at restaurants worldwide, wherever you dine points are piling up. So bring your friends along for your next course, because it's not all about the posts. It's about the company and the memories. How can gold from MX sweeten your next food moment?

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48:26Robert Mays: All right, Derek, you're up, buddy. Your next lesson from watching the best defenses in the league last year is what? So I actually want to go back a little bit to the point that we were making about dime defenses. And I think what's interesting to me is that this is not necessarily that teams are playing way more dime than they used to. I actually went back and looked at 2018. In 2018, which that to me, again, that was the same one I did for the nickel body types. 15 teams ran at least 100 snaps of dime. This year it was 14. And in 2018, actually, there were four teams with at least 300 snaps of dime.

49:04The Chargers, like, lived out of it. The Steelers and Packers were knocking on the door of 400. And then there was one other team that I can't remember. This year, the only team above 300 was the Rams. But I think this goes back a little bit to what you were talking about. I think more in 2018, some of those teams were not necessarily using dime as, like, we are doing this to dictate personnel. know we are playing to certain downs and distances it was just like these are the best bodies we have it's a passing league that's what we're gonna do you're seeing teams now 85 11 you can play that much not worry about it exactly it was just a different league but now it's it's more to what you say you're saying where teams are weaponizing it in specific downs and distances the six teams that had positive epa per play as a dime defense were the jags weirdly the bears uh that was a lot of turnovers, but the Cleveland Browns, the Chargers, the Seahawks and the Rams.

49:58It's all of these teams, like you are saying, that are not necessarily like on first and 10 wanting to live in dime the way that like the Chargers were, you know, seven years ago. It's just that when we get you into second and eight, that's a passing down. We're going to put these guys in the field. And so I think it's not just using dime for dime's sake, but it's like you're saying, making sure that we're weaponizing it in the actual correct way. And two, like back in 2018, even when you were in dime, like Cody was saying, also, it was just way more of a man coverage league. And so you were just kind of like running with guys.

50:29It was it was just a little bit of a different consideration. Now these body types are a little bit bigger. And so even when they're in dime, you're conceding a little bit less than you were even in 2018. Dime dime to me, though, it goes back to especially in this ecosystem is and Derek, you alluded to it. We're not playing man coverage. I think of the top, I kind of looked at the body types too, of the top defenses, there's really only a couple, like the Patriots with Jones and then McMillan with the Broncos, but a lot of sturdy inside guys, right? So if you're going to have a light corner, he has to be that.

51:04I also think, too, it's down to player personnel and what we've seen. You are seeing more and more of these defensive coordinators. I thought Christian Parker hit it, talking about Caleb Downs. This is a first-round talent position now. And how often have we seen a guy where like, man, like Brian Branch, how did he follow the second round? Well, he was a safety. Well, the Lions figured out, man, after one year, like, man, we got to have this guy on the field literally all the time. Look at the Eagles defense when Cooper DeGene comes on. It was like, oh, this is what the Fangio system is supposed to look like, right?

51:37So I think with the dime setting, again, I think teams are getting smarter with it. 2018 was literally a reaction to the first RPO team winning a Super Bowl. And then you have, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you have like the basketball game that was played between the Chiefs and the Rams. And people were just trying to freak out. If you go to 2019, actually the man rates jump even higher because teams, defenses were like, I don't know how to answer this. Let's just play man because, you know, and which didn't work. So I think teams slowly figured it out. But it's really interesting. a lot of those teams in there have a plethora of quality DBs.

52:15And so it goes back to you look at this draft, you look at this offseason, and it goes back to what I said earlier. Three corners, three safeties. You've got to find a way to be able to be multiple because you can't start moving guys around if you don't have that guy behind. So if you're just playing an all-11 defense, like we've seen the Lions play forever, when one of those guys goes down or you can't move that piece, it's a cascading effect because now you're giving the onus back to the offense. The offense can set the table, and now you're in trouble. So the dime to me, and I'll go back. I talked about this with a defensive coach last year.

52:55The more we play dime, the better off we're going to be, and I think it goes back to what you were saying, Robert, is we are dictating it. We are leaning into your tendencies, and now you don't have an answer for that.

53:06Robert Mays: And the dime thing, Derek, I think plays into the next one I wanted to talk about where when you're in dime and you have all of those bodies in the back end, just think about all the different permutations of pressures the Seahawks can then use when they're in those looks. It feels like it's when they're at their scariest is when you have Witherspoon and Imanwari closer to the middle of the formation. And then just a million different things can unfold from that space. So mine, it's a simple idea. But when you look at it, it really slaps you in the face. the best defenses in the league aren't necessarily the defenses that are blitzing the most, but they're the defenses that are blitzing the best.

53:44Yes. Yes. It's the efficiency and it's what you're doing. It goes back to what I talked about. It's how you're doing it and why you're doing it, not just spamming it. Now, the one outlier in this, because people are going to be, well, what about the Vikings? The Vikings don't have a secondary. So what are they going to do? They're going to gap everybody out. They're going to walk their safety down. Harrison Smith was basically allowed to do whatever he wanted to do. Metellus was essentially a Sam linebacker. And you're just, you're going to blitz and you're going to plug every gap. Not a lot of movement.

54:15There's not a lot of, we're just going to line up, gap you out. You're going to have to, we're going to get a two on one somewhere. The ball's going to have to come out quickly. That's not what we're talking about. What you're talking about is the efficiency in which you're doing it and kind of because we give so many of these static alignments we're able to then hit this I mean I think that one of the best simulated pressure guys is like Ron Roberts who's now at Arkansas I mean he's the godfather of a lot of the a lot of this stuff at the college level with Dave Aranda and the reason why is because he's not a heavy blitzer on these early downs or even on late downs but it's when they do it it's that static and then all of a sudden everybody moves.

54:56And I think even going in, leaning in, especially on third down, stunting the front to keep these guys in the second, that's really where you're seeing the stunting is on these third downs or in these dime packages to really create havoc up front and to change the math. And then, Hey, we're going to hammer you with a nickel pressure. Or if you give me condensed, I mean, Spagnuolo has been doing this forever. We're going to hammer you with a corner pressure and these guys can blitz. That's the other, that's the other thing. I go back to what I said. There's a market efficiency within the offensive.

55:24We're not going to block the corner. Well, Well, if corners can tackle, they're going to have to start blocking them. Well, that takes a guy away from the box. And then that's how the math changes on defense.

55:33Robert Mays: I was looking at the next gen numbers success rate on blitzes this year. Here's the top six. Seattle was number one. Minnesota was number two. The Chargers were number three. The Texans were number four. The Eagles were number five and the Broncos were number six. And that is not the same top 10 as on non-blitzes. So you could just say, well, those are the best defenses. Of course, they're good in those situations. The top 10 on non-blitzes actually looks a little bit different. Like Seattle's lower than you'd expect them to be. The Chargers are lower than you'd expect them to be. But these teams, when they blitz, are absolutely devastating.

56:04Robert Mays: The Seattle this year, we've mentioned this stat before, but it's worth bringing up while having this conversation. Negative 0.4 EPA per drop back on blitzes this year for the Seahawks. That is the second best mark since 2021, according to NextGenStats. Only the 2023 Browns were better. 2023 Browns also were number one in completion rate allowed. Sub 50 % completions on blitzes for the 2023 Browns, which is just absolutely insane. And the reason I was looking at that is because Philly allowed 51 % completions on their blitzes this year, which is the fourth best mark since 2021. And so the Eagles and the Seahawks in some capacity were probably the two most efficient blitzing teams in the league this year.

56:49Robert Mays: so you have the structural stuff that we're talking about where you're playing with these light boxes you're able to defend the run out of those light boxes and then you're complementing that by being the most efficient devastating dangerous pointed sniper like blitzing teams in the league i think what's so interesting about that too is like it felt like even as recently as like three or four years ago and the vikings to be clear are still very much this but it used to feel more like the blitzing meta so to speak was we are going to pressure a lot we are going to put a lot of people on the line of scrimmage and then when we don't blitz that actually is more of the like oh shit they have seven guys in coverage now like we weren't ready for that now it's more the opposite of like vic fangio's totally fine sitting there with seven men in coverage for 80 of the game and then the one third down he brings it you're not ready you can't block it up and i think that those guys now it's more about like smelling blood in the water and knowing when and why to do it or another like minor thing that i think a lot of these best defenses are good at very very like team-specific game plans like the the Chargers game for example that the Eagles played obviously their interior is terrible Vic Fangio is not a huge blitz guy he blitzed N 'Kobe Dean like every play that game because he realized that the second half of the Super Bowl was like that for Seattle it's another good example a hundred percent and like these defensive coordinators I think especially with pressure now even the guys that don't love to do it they recognize the moments of like no we can pick on this scheme or this player this back whatever it's going to be and I think being very mindful of when they're going to do that I think even that is a layer of like surprise because like maybe the Chargers know that like you know they're trying to prepare like we know our interior is not great we got to have x y and z plan but they're not ready for Vic Fangio to like double his his pressure rate in a given game and so I think just stuff like that is another way that these some of these best defenses do a really good job of keeping teams honest and I'll go one further I think when you think of blitzing you think of presentation right you think of oh man there's seven guys or you know the zimmer double a you know that he used to he would span with it with the vikings okay i know pressure's coming whether it's simulated and there's only going to be four guys or you're actually bringing pressure i know pressure's coming now the vikings leverage that in a completely different way because they are now saying that is our meta that is what we do we don't do anything else but when you look at that list, a lot of those are off ball pressures.

59:10A lot of them are low pressure rate. So what are we doing? We're giving you the static presentation and then, oh, you're going to go ahead and you're going to go big on big and you're going to have the running back be in charge of the backer. And then all of a sudden we're going to blitz that B gap. And I have been saying this, I've been screaming this forever, make the running back block. He's the worst blocker on the entire office. He doesn't want to block. So and very rarely do you find a guy that is oh, that guy's a really good running it. Look, here's how you know is if you say oh that guy is really good at blocking as a running back.

59:46You're like yeah, why is he on the roster. So it's like, it's like you attack that guy you go when you look at what Seattle did. and even with the because I know what the Eagles are doing there again those B gap stabs we're sending guys through the B gap we're making that running back either cross the formation ID who's coming you look at those they're attacking the back they're getting two on ones on the back somebody's going to come free so it's the efficiency in what they're doing they're not just giving you presentation I thought Mike McDonald I think he did the Dan Patrick show he was talking about everybody wants to do these exotic movements in the back end they want to do these exotic fronts, but sometimes about just having that structure and then understanding like when to call that and then calling it at the right spot, lulling them into, oh, that guard needs to work with the nose.

1:00:34Oh, the nose is going. I'll just go ahead and continue to chase. It turns into a four man slide. Now there's a B gap that's, you know, it looks like the Red Sea just parted. Oh, we're going to send two guys through that, especially on the weak side. And so I think like that to me has been what you see time and time again is make it look static. and then change the picture post-snap, whether it's in the back end or it's with your blitz structures. That's what these teams are doing.

1:00:58Robert Mays: It's so funny when you compare that to, like you said before, where in 2019 people were like, we don't know what the we're doing, so we're just going to play a lot of man coverage. We are not that far removed from defenses around the league scrambling, just scrambling for answers. What was the right approach? We just have, it's slipping through our fingers consistently, And now it just feels so far away from that for the best defenses in the league. They just feel so sturdy and solid in the way that they're approaching this and just how calm and controlled and again in control. Like they are the ones in control in a way that it just did not feel like five years ago.

1:01:39Robert Mays: And it's really remarkable how fast things have changed. Cody, I think you're up. What's your this is your last one. What's what's what's your next one if you got one for me. Yeah, split field coverages. This is going to be a big trend on early downs. The quarters rates, if you look at them, let's just look at quarters and cover six. This is not going to be like the Seattle cover two stuff. It's not Tampa two. We're purely looking at either cover four or cover six, a quarter quarter half. The Fangio stuff where they do the rotational coverage, all of that. We'll slump it all together. Split field coverage minus cover two.

1:02:14on early downs that's where you're going to start seeing quarters being used quarters rates through the aggregate just overall they've kind of leveled off they haven't gone anywhere cover two's kind of risen even though we've you know cover three's shrunk man shrunk so we are getting more cover three but really quarters on early downs you want to run 12 you want to run 12 personnel you want to get in double condensed the best way to do that is to get into a quarter structure be able to cross key, be able to pick up these crossing routes, layer the intermediate. That has really been where I think the best teams are starting to do this on early downs, playing from these two high, where I think Seattle was a little different as they ran a lot of cover too.

1:03:00But a lot of these teams, that's where the quarters is popping up. That's where your split field coverage is popping up. It's now on early downs. This is not a prevent cover for a defense anymore. They're actually learning quarters and then implementing it on early downs. And it's a very aggressive style of quarters for a lot of teams like they are playing downhill very fast, which I do think makes it like an interesting. I think another thing that like ties into a lot of what defenses are doing now is that they are making you challenge them deep down the field. They are they are daring you to do it.

1:03:34They're like, how many go balls do you think you can complete? How many of like do you think you can throw a scene ball into this tight window? Do you think that you can throw a 15 yard comeback rail? and I think a lot of the teams that are willing to do it like the Rams the Jordan Love and the Packers like the quarterbacks and the teams that are willing to make those throws and play a little bit more of a volatile game if they have to that's the only way to break this because I think if you're doing a lot of what you're saying where it's oh we're gonna try to scheme up the middle of the field the way that you used to or we're gonna try to scheme up yak the way that we used to well teams are one good at closing the middle of the field better than they used to and like you said at the top of the show, these corners can tackle, man.

1:04:11Corners and safeties are not shying away from contact anymore. These are not like, oh, if I catch him in open space, I'm going to be able to create five more yards. Unless you're Jamar Chase, that is just not really true. And so I think for a lot of those reasons, everything that defenses are doing now is daring them to challenge them, especially beyond the 10 to 15 yard range.

1:04:30Robert Mays: And I'm curious if we see more offenses try. I'm curious if we see more offenses just be like, we're back to big post baby because that's where we want to live now i was actually watching this game a little bit earlier to prepare for this show one of the teams that did the best job against seattle this year was the bucks in week four they went bombs away and baker mayfield said screw it i'm gonna throw this back and they they did a really good job of manipulating some of the safeties if they thought they were playing three by one and that backside quarter safety was going to poach they would like tie him down on purpose and run like a 40-yard crosser over the top of his head, and they were just willing to do it.

1:05:09And is it scary? Yes, because those are much lower completion percentage plays. But if you hit three out of the six that you try in a game, that's going to be enough to flip the field a number of times. And they did it a bunch on third downs, and they were willing to do it. I think the fact that some of the best teams to undress these really good defenses, you do kind of have to really play in a way that feels a little bit scary and play on a knife's a little bit. And I think that that's what a lot of these offenses are not necessarily used to doing that recently. They've been used to doing what they want and being a little bit safer if they want to.

1:05:41They're kind of being forced into a way that feels a little bit uncomfortable for a lot of them. One of the things I did for prep for the Super Bowl, the Patriots were one of the best deep ball passing teams. And what they did is they hunted that weak side safety. And, you know, we talked about this multiple times that the quarter structures or adding quarters into cover three, you still look you can't pull it there is no perfect defense so you're going to take something you're going to push something somewhere that's going to isolate boundary corner I thought one of the things that you saw in the playoffs people actually attacked Christian Gonzalez why well the Patriots were playing a lot of either weak rotation cover three or quarters that's what they were playing well where is the isolation it's to the boundary corner now you're getting those inside nines, which is basically a skinny post, the big post, all of those things.

1:06:28I think that's a trend going into this year that you're going to see is because that's what the defensive ecosystem is giving you is a lot of weak rotation, cover three and quarters, which basically we talked about this. They function almost identically if you teach them correctly. Okay, well, where is the isolation? The isolation is going to be on that backside corner. So if you don't have a boundary corner, you're going to be in a lot of trouble this year because I think teams are going to hunt it and they're going to start seeing, okay, we think we can get that, or we're at least going to wake you up and we're going to throw that.

1:07:00And that's where that's going to be. So you're going to, even Christian Gonzalez is getting targeted on these plays. I mean, so you're, this is where I think you're going to start seeing this.

1:07:10Robert Mays: Derek's having a very complicated emotional response to this entire segment because on one hand, he's so happy about teams chucking the ball downfield again. On the other hand, Christian Gonzalez is like his child. He got targeted, but he did not give up a lot. Well, no, but I'm just saying that's the point. Right. That's who you want to throw it at. Exactly. You're going to have to. And I thought, and you mentioned it, Derek. There are certain teams that just said it doesn't matter. We're going to go after it. We know you've got a top corner. I don't care. The space is there. Offense is the whole purpose of the offense is to find space.

1:07:43The whole purpose of the defense is to constrain it. So if you're an offense and you're not attacking the space that they're giving, you're going to be in trouble in 2026. One last thing I want to say on the flip side of this, actually, of like what might come for next year, X receivers are back, baby. Like if this is going to be how you got to attack, why do you think the Niners wanted Mike Evans? Because he can run exactly those routes against exactly that kind of defense.

1:08:05Robert Mays: Pierce just made$29 million a year. Like when those guys are going to be back in vogue if those are the types of routes that we're going to need to be running. So it's such a fun push and pull. And one of the teams that I think you see the opposite of this where, and like you just said, the Niners to me were the exact team on the other side of this where they didn't have that guy. And that's why Seattle was able to play them the way that they did. Like teams against San Francisco this year, you can just hammer down on that stuff because you're just not afraid of what they're going to do outside the numbers down the field on you.

1:08:39Robert Mays: And so beyond Mike Evans just bringing a skill set to that team, that is, it's just going to open up so much if they can start to access that part of the field. That's the number one team that jumps out to me where defense Seattle specifically could just completely consume and pick on the Niners because they didn't have that answer in the way that a team like the Rams could do. Like a team like the Rams is going to take advantage of some of those one-on-ones down the field in a way that San Francisco just can't. And so trying to find every way you can, every avenue you can to accessing that against these types of defenses, you're going to need to have that in your bag or you're just going to get swallowed up in the way that we saw it happen to the Niners twice in the back half of the season.

1:09:18felt bad for for kyle on the super bowl because it's like he's at levi's stadium the super bowl and they go well what is it about the seattle seahawks defense and he's it's exactly what you just said well they live in a too high shell and we can't run the ball he goes that's pretty much going to kill every offense and it's just like that's that's it that's the modern recipe and that's what seattle was able to do and they didn't again you go back to why are they going to get mike evans well we got to have we got to be able to push it down i know shanahan's talked about this offseason about re-emphasizing in the passing game you can't talk about it I actually go back to the Eagles versus the Chiefs in that Super Bowl of the Eagles just said we're gonna we're gonna play quarters we're gonna pack in we don't think that you can throw outside not that Mahomes can't make it but you don't have a receiver that's gonna go outside so go ahead over the top either one of those things you can't do either one of those things can't do it and that's what we're gonna do and I think that's where we we see then the evolution in 2025 like you're gonna have to throw the ball deep and you're going to have to attack and the X receiver I think is going to be

1:10:16Robert Mays: back in the same way that we're talking about defensive personnel dictating a lot of the stuff and the bodies you have and the talent you have allows you to play this way I think that like Derek said the talent swings back to the players mattering more on offense than the scheme now because if the scheme is going to have fewer answers are you're going to need players that provide you those answers and it does feel like we might be drifting back that direction a little bit which is a fun place to be yes anything else from you derek is that all of yours no that that was pretty much all my big picture ones i think i'm wrapped up okay yeah well my a lot of mine played into that but uh really good conversation cody sincerely appreciate you joining us for everyone that has not checked out the work that cody is doing at match quarters i have been a subscriber for i mean pretty much since you started it those those emails hit my those emails hit my inbox every single morning.

1:11:11Robert Mays: There's always something interesting, whether they're deep dives about specific things teams are doing. We talked about the Seattle early down blitz stuff, a lot of big picture breakdowns of, you know, what is the Fangio system? What are some of these teams doing? A lot of analytical statistical work in there. So if you guys are interested in just where the league is and some of the stuff drifting up from college defensively, Cody's work is a great place to start and you should be checking it out. So Cody, sincerely appreciate the time and thank you for joining us. Yeah, thanks. Appreciate it, guys.

1:11:40You know me. I love talking defense.

1:11:43Robert Mays: That's all we've got for today. We will be back on the feed tomorrow. We got a good one coming tomorrow. I'm very excited about it. I'm actually a little bit nervous, Derek. I'm putting my board together right now, and this is going to be a tough one. I'm looking forward to it. I got a little bit nervous when I was putting my, not my team together, but who I hope is going to be my team together. We'll see how it goes. I'm just going to say, I'm just going to tell you guys what we're doing. We're talking breakout players tomorrow, but instead of just listing off breakout players, we're going to draft breakout players, me, Derek and Dave, and we're going to try to figure out who has the best team coming out of it.

1:12:20Robert Mays: So there are actual stakes to how you're putting this together and the guys that you want to chase. I think very similar to the under 25 draft that we did. And I was a mess as we did that entire thing. And probably will be tomorrow because I want to win. And it's going to be a fun thing to do. So that's all we've got for today, though. Sincerely appreciate you guys. We will talk to you tomorrow. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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