Nine players who quietly defined the 2025 season

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2:23Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Last week, we spent an entire show talking about the tight end moment in the NFL. Talked to Charlie Kohler a little bit about it, talked to Derek about it, and just what this looks like, the moment that we've arrived at that position specifically, and how it's kind of an expression of the way the game is currently being played. Today, we wanted to have sort of a similar conversation, but about some other positions. There is one tight end in this discussion, but there are also guys who do a lot of other things. We're going to zero in today on about eight to 10 players who we feel like were quietly representative of what the NFL was in 2025.

3:02Robert Mays: the position that they play and the way that they play that position, how it factors into good offense and good defense based on what those teams are trying to accomplish in 2025. And I think heading into 2026. So that's what Derek and I did today. We picked about eight to 10 guys and tried to explain, examine why those guys were a reflection of what the NFL felt like in 2025. Really enjoyed this conversation. Think you guys will as well. Let's get to it right now.

3:42Robert Mays: Doing a little bit of a look back today. Obviously in June, a lot of space to play with, not a ton of news coming down the pike every single day. We're able to look back at some lingering questions that we've had from last season over the last couple weeks. We will continue to do that. But this is a show I wanted to do. it's kind of an extension of the tight end conversation we had last week when it comes to archetypal players from the 2025 NFL season. And we might talk about some tight ends today, but we're also going to talk about some other positions, just guys that for one reason or another, Derek, we thought were representative of what the league felt like in 2025 for one reason or another.

4:21Robert Mays: So the goal today is to hit like eight to 10 guys who, for whatever reason, are a accurate expression of what the NFL feels like in this exact moment right now. I'm really excited for this one. Before we actually dig into it, did you have like a parameter for this? Because like my only one was like, as long as they didn't make a Pro Bowl, because that felt like at a certain point, they were probably a little bit too famous. Because I did have one guy that like maybe we can talk about him at the end if we have time. I wanted to put Kamari Lassiter on here, but I was like, I think he might be too good, actually.

4:54Robert Mays: That's funny. I didn't really have that. I mean, like, so just spoiler alert. I had a guy who was second team all pro last year. And the reason that I had him is that I had a originally I had Tarheeb still in that spot. But I was like, am I am I going to have this conversation and like diminish the real conversation I want to have? Or am I going to pick the guy that's actually representative of all of the things I'm talking about. So I went with the more famous guy, but the first three and one's a first round pick. But again, I think that he does embody a lot of the things that we're talking about.

5:26Robert Mays: So I fudged whatever the qualifications were supposed to be and just went with four guys that I thought would be fun to discuss. Okay, that's good. Then maybe at the end, I'll throw in Kamari Lasseter because I did have some stuff for him. Let's let's start with the one that I do know that we actually have some overlap on, which is inevitable. Yes, That is Parker Washington from the Jacksonville Jaguars. Why did it feel that way? Why did you have to put Parker Washington on a list like this and have him be a part of this conversation? So part of it to me is that the way I tried to come to some of these players was like they ended up on teams that we talked about a lot for whatever reason.

6:06And with the Jaguars, that was obviously true. They ended up being one of the best offenses in the league down the stretch. We were talking about Liam Cohn and, you know, Trevor Lawrence was taking this step. And, you know, BTJ had some of the struggles early on. And then he finds a role. Jacoby Myers, all that trade. Meanwhile, Parker Washington led the team in like every statistical category throughout the course of the year. And he just like we we kind of just forgot that he was just this really good ho-hum player for them really for for 17 games.

6:34Robert Mays: You look at some of the season wide, like like league wide season long stats. I guess it was limited to a certain portion of the season, but the one that I want to throw out from week 10 onward, every player in the league, all wide receivers and tight ends. Parker Washington was 14th in targets per route run. It was like two spots behind Colston Loveland, which was that. That was the reason I was looking up the number because I did Barnwell show earlier today. And I was like, holy shit, Parker Washington is 14th on this list. He was a really important part of what the Jags were doing. So other than the prominence of Parker Washington in an offense that we talked about a lot, why did you want him to be a part of this discussion?

7:12So I think part of it is that we I think probably the biggest schematic talking point with how we arrived at the Jaguars was like, man, you bring in Jacoby Myers and it just fixes all of their stuff over the middle of the field. Right. And part of what we've said with Jacoby Myers, we even joked about this on our utility question that we got in a mailbag. It's like you can just move him anywhere. Well, if you move that guy anywhere, somebody else also has to be moving. And Parker Washington is a player that you can move into the slot, out of the slot, all that sort of stuff. Like according to FTN Fantasy, Parker Washington aligned in the slot 48.4 % of the time, which was the 18th highest rate in the league.

7:48Myers was right behind him at 23rd. Like those two guys really did end up being pretty interchangeable in the offense. And Washington's not like an exceptional player on the outside. But even if you just look at some of his numbers on the outside, like his EPA per target is like top 30 ish, like a lot of his numbers as an outside player purely are top 30. So he's not like dominating outside, but he's doing more than enough for you again to be this high level role player that is allowing everybody else to kind of fill into the roles that they need to.

8:17Robert Mays: So I think I focused on similar thoughts, but just taking it one step further. I also had the numbers about 50 50 slotted inside, which was about 50 50 split. So he spent an equal amount of time inside, outside. What I think is a really important point here, and one of the reasons I wanted to include him in this discussion, even if he's spending 50 % of his time outside, he is a very good expression to me of some of the benefits these offenses are getting by having and playing with a lot of these condensed formations. Because he is somebody that if you're going to play him outside, quote unquote, but he's three yards removed from the core of the formation and teams can't play any sort of press coverage against him, then you're limiting where some of his weaknesses might exist as a 5 '10 player on the outside against some bigger corners.

9:05Robert Mays: And I think that has come up a lot in the discussions that we've had over the last year. You know, we did an entire show about this archetype of receiver during the regular season last year with me and Matt Harmon. We talked about this a lot with a Kyle Lemon coming into the league, where is he a slot only? But in this world, if you're playing with all these condensed formations, what does that mean? And I think Parker Washington is a really good expression of a lot of those conversations and ideas about how if you shrink the width of these formations, it's easier for him to survive outside because you're really limiting where some of his weaknesses might show up.

9:41It is. And the press coverage point is a good one. And I will say on the flip side of why he can work, you know, kind of fake outside-ish, but like can actually work outside a little bit. His hands are huge. Like he actually like they're great and they're fantastic. Like when he's got to go up for the ball and like find it in the air and come down with it, like he he really can do it for a guy who's a little bit smaller. And so he has that like standout trait for him. And then the one other thing I wanted to point out for him statistically, according to NFL Pro, there were eight players last year who had a yards after catch over expected of at least 100 yards.

10:15It's George Pickens, Puka Nakua, Jamar Chase, Khalil Shakir, Jameson Williams, Nico Collins, and then Parker Washington. And then the guy right behind him is JSN at 99. Like he was in a category of like pretty elite players.

10:29Robert Mays: So both of those things I think are really important to point out because I also think that those two traits specifically are worth noting with the way the modern game is being played. I'm like dancing around a theory that I, the obsession that I have long had, I think some people have with the ability to create separation matters less in this era for two reasons. One, we're playing in less space than we were, let's call it 10 years ago, right? When it's a lot of single high, the offenses are a little bit more vertical. You're playing in a little bit less space. And two, I think the offenses and the offensive coaching staffs have gotten so good at manufacturing separation for receivers, whether it's by play design, getting guys in motion.

11:16Robert Mays: How many, I don't know how much Parker Washington you went back and watched for this, but when I went back and watched it, how many plays where he's going in motion and catching a crosser and having to do absolutely nothing when it comes to creating separation for himself. So if separation is going to be the ability to separate is going to be slightly marginalized because of how offenses are playing. I think there are two things that kind of rise up in conjunction with that one catching the football, just period. Like, can you do it in traffic? Can you make contested catches? if we're going to have more bodies in coverage and we're going to have an umbrella over things and you're having to deal with more traffic the ability to make those plays in traffic becomes really important and two if you're going to be making those catches underneath what do you do after the catch and so both of those traits that he has in kind of surprising ways i think become more accentuated based on how the game is currently being played it really does it that is a great point that if we're working in less space, you got to find some way to win the space.

12:17And if there's less space, you're probably not going to create more of it. You probably just need to work with what you got. And those guys who have the huge mitts and are just willing to make catches like Parker Washington is absolutely one of those guys. Like he, I would probably say like, even though they have a handful of good pass catchers on that team, like he was probably their best red zone weapon too, because he can just kind of like make catches in that area in a way that some, some of the other guys can't on that roster.

12:39Robert Mays: Per PFF, here are the players in the NFL last year who had more contested catches than Parker Washington. Puka Nakua, Michael Wilson, who had 22 of them, and George Pickens. That's it. End of list. Those are the only three guys. He's 5 '10". Yeah, think about how much bigger all those guys are than him. All of those guys are at least six foot, if not, you know, closer to like 6 '2", 6 '3", in a lot of those cases. Like, the fact that he's doing it at 5 '10", is like, they just, he is like the exception that proves the rule for guys that size being able to go up and get the football. It's pretty remarkable, actually.

13:14Robert Mays: He was one of the first names I thought of with this exercise because I think that he just checks so many of the boxes that we're trying to hint at. When you watch him, there is an innate understanding that he's really bringing a lot to the table, but I wanted to articulate that. Why do we find ourselves so attached to the idea of Parker Washington based on how the current modern NFL operates. And I think all of the reasons that you articulated are exactly why. So let's go from former sixth round pick, Parker Washington, right? Fifth, sixth, something, definitely day three. Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was a sixth round pick.

13:51Robert Mays: Let's look at this. Sixth round in the 2023 draft. So let's go from a quiet, underrated sixth round pick to a guy that was drafted in the first round. But one of the guys I really wanted to talk about for this, because I do think, I'm going to spin this in Galaxy, Brandon, into why he belongs on this list. The Seahawks won the Super Bowl in like truly dominant fashion, right? That was just one of the best defenses that we have seen march through the postseason in the last five to 10 years. They were an incredible unit. And I think in a lot of ways, again, are a very pure representation of what works with defensive football in the league right now.

14:27Robert Mays: If you were to list off the most important, prominent, talked about players on that defense from last year. How many guys do you think you had mentioned before you got to Byron Murphy? Man, it's like at minimum four because people love talking about Emin Worry. Devin Witherspoon is obviously up there. Leonard Williams is obviously up there. Ernest Jones for a lot of people is up there. And then maybe you get into the bar. So it's a win. Yeah, I think that there are guys that you would mention first. And I wanted to talk about him just because I think that he is such a good representation of what you need up front to play this way.

15:06Robert Mays: And when we talked about the Seahawks all year, we kind of talked about the front as a whole, like that group of five, six, seven players allowed them to play the way that they wanted to. But I think in some ways, Murphy is like the best expression of that, in my opinion. And it's for a couple of different reasons. One, I think it's his own personal improvement from his rookie year till last year, especially against the run. And that's what's so interesting to me about Byron Murphy specifically, is that when Byron Murphy came into the league two years ago, he profiled as this like penetrating, disruptive, 305-pound three technique, and that's what he was going to be.

15:43Robert Mays: That's not what he is for this team. Because he plays next to Leonard Williams, he plays a ton of nose, Byron Murphy does for this team at 305 pounds. And his ability to hold up against the run and hold up against double teams, I think in a lot of ways is one of the reasons that the entire Seattle defensive plan, run defense plan and run defense dominance all fell into place the way that it did this year. So like him getting to be that sort of player, we talk about him and Wari as this like skeleton key for the Seahawks playing this way. I think in an underrated way, Byron Murphy also did the same thing, just in a much less high profile way.

16:26I think that's a good point, though, that like he came into the league as something and has really been asked to be something completely different. Like he feels more like Javon Hargrave at certain points, like early on in his career was like this, where he was playing a lot of nose, but was really more of like an explosive player. And I would even say to the point that you were making, like Murphy, as a like just sit in my spot anchor type of guy is way better than Hargrave ever was at that.

16:49Robert Mays: 100%. And I think that's really important to point out. And that's kind of what I'm getting at is like, it's not, we see some of this stuff where Javon Hargrave is a very good example, especially in Philadelphia. They got to a place where they're playing that attack front in Philly. It's a really get up the field sort of defense. And he fits there even as an undersized nose. The Seahawks aren't playing that sort of defense. Like he's having to take on way more blocks and take on way more double teams and kind of sit at the point of attack rather than what Hargrave would be asked to be doing that system.

17:19Robert Mays: And I think it's on several different fronts. You see just how good he is at it. His ability to like get on one knee and anchor down against double teams as a small player. He's so good at finding that leverage. And I think what where this all kind of comes back is just this idea of if you're going to play with these light boxes, you need block destroyers. And he is a block destroyer, even as like a 305 pound nose tackle is ability to understand angles to play with leverage. When necessary, he does have the explosiveness to be a penetrating player. So just his ability to affect the offensive line and the other team's run game and pass protection on so many different fronts as a nose tackle.

18:01Robert Mays: He just really represents like an interesting idea to me with like what type of players are really, really useful when you're trying to play this type of defense. Yes, if you are trying to play this style of defense, you need D tackles. And really this extends to the edge. And I do think obviously Seattle did a good job of this. but guys who will buy time for second and third level fitters, which a guy like Murphy, even at his like a little bit undersized does a really good job of, or you can, you can fudge how the gaps are being played in terms of run defense by like slashing him and Leonard Williams across the line of scrimmage.

18:32And it's not necessarily to get them in the backfield. It's to get them way across the guard's face faster than he thinks it can happen. And then Drake Thomas can fly downhill and pop somebody.

18:43Robert Mays: That's exactly right. I watched that happen a dozen times today. it's the whole defense baby it's it's more like truly the more you watch it it is like how many times can they just scheme up drake thomas to just like fly through and just smoke a running back and they did because you have these two defensive tackles and leonard williams and byron murphy that are capable of doing that you can get away with that in the way that they did and then if drake thomas misses part of the beauty of the seahawks defense ernest jones is going to clean it up like he's going to find it every time like they really are i know this is mostly supposed to be about Byron Murphy, but it's remarkable how well every piece of that defense fits together.

19:16It's insane.

19:17Robert Mays: And I think that the ability to affect the run in multiple ways is a huge part of that. Like you said, they'll have those guys, you know, slant a gap over, create some disruption that way. But the ability to have that level of explosiveness and pop and the ability to hold up at the point of attack at 300 pounds, there just aren't that many nose tackles who can do both of those things in the way that a Byron Murphy can. And if you look at it, the pass rush production, he led all players in the NFL in pressures per next gen, lined up as a two technique or further in. So head up in the guard or further inside, he led all players in the NFL in pressures.

19:53Robert Mays: He was ninth in pressure rate on those plays, despite being the only guy in the top 15 who had more than 225 of those pass rush snaps. He had 349 of them. So the volume of pressures is there. The pressure rate is there. Like the only guy that was kind of similar to him in profile with where they were lining up and their ability to affect the quarterback is Vitavia. That was it. Who is 50 pounds heavier. Yes. It is what he did this year and what they asked him to do is remarkable. And I think when they drafted him, there was part of me that was like, isn't Leonard Williams like kind of your three technique within this defense?

20:32Robert Mays: Like how are those two guys supposed to play together in a way that accentuates each one of their strengths? And Byron Murphy turning into this sort of player kind of allows Leonard Williams to be the player that he is. It just makes everyone around him better. And I just don't know, I certainly haven't, if we've talked enough about Byron Murphy's role in making this whole thing go for Seattle. Yeah, that's 100%, especially for a first round pick. It's sometimes easy to forget contributors who are third round picks and all that stuff. But we're usually not fast to forget guys who are first round picks, especially in a high profile team like this.

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24:50Robert Mays: All right, so Parker Washington was one of my other ones. We both had Parker Washington. Who was your next guy that you wanted to talk about here? So I knew we were both going to come to the table with a tight end. I feel like the way that the league is moving, it was that was kind of inevitable part of the conversation. And I'm actually going to stick in Seattle. I think AJ Barner was like way more important to shaping the 2025 season than people realize. Like this dude is an awesome football player. One of the only reasons I didn't pick AJ Barner is because I have multiple other Seahawks on my list.

25:18Robert Mays: In my I have a tight end. The next line in the notes is AJ Barner. Just like AKA could also be AJ Barner. He is so good, man. And I think I think it's easy because we're so much of the conversation about tight ends is like teams going to 12 and going to 13. And it's, you know, we want to talk about some of these guys who are the second or third tight end off the bench, whoever it's going to be. But I think with the way that Seattle ran their offense, with with being such a get under center, run, boot, play action team, you really do need your true wide tight end to be like an incredible glue everything together piece.

25:55And you, you really can't do much better than AJ Barner was for the Seahawks last year. Like purely as a pass player, he's not explosive. He is not a sexy player. Like he had, where was it? I found it on FTN. He had like a 4 % explosives rate. And most of them were just like extremely schemed up like shot plays. He just doesn't do that.

26:13Robert Mays: He averaged 4.3 air yards per target. The reason that I know that is the guy that I have also averaged 4.3 air yards per target. And I thought the fact that it was the same was very interesting. My guy is Colby Parkinson, by the way, which I think you can say a lot of the same things about A.J. Barner that you can about Colby Parkinson. And so I think there's going to be a lot of overlap in this discussion. A hundred percent. And like he, while he doesn't have the explosives, the way the offense is built is so that Kenneth Walker can get them in the ground game and so that JSN can get them in the pass game as a play action passer.

26:44And so you need a guy like A.J. Barner to do a lot of the dirty work in the passing game. And he did. According to FTN Fantasy, he converted 96.7 % of his catchable targets into catches because he has that massive wingspan and he just has really good hands. He was able to do that. He ranked, according to True Media, he had a 60.3 % success rate on his targets, which was the sixth best in the league. If the ball's around him, it's not going to be an explosive play. It will be a good play. And I think the way that that often manifested schematically, a lot of what they did with him was like whenever they were booting to their right or their left he would be the online tight end and he would chip and he would get a huge piece of the d end and then they would just like float him out into the flat and it was just an automatic like eight yards every time and he just did a really good job of that and the offense did a good job of kind of allowing that to him and then the other thing man he kicks ass as a blocker like he is just he's awesome like he part of it is like it's kind of everything with him like he's I think really good technically in terms of like where he's putting his hands and how he's moving the angles he's taking and then he has an 87th percentile wingspan so he just like in like just engulfs the people that he's going around like he just i think outside of explosive plays like he really is a true do-it-all wide tight end it's not even just the efficiency of the blocking

28:04Robert Mays: he had 432 run blocking snaps last year as a tight end that was number one in the league by 34 snaps it's like an entire game's worth that that no one else in the league no other tight end in the nfl was on the field blocking as much as aj barner was and that to me speaks to the value in players like this is that they them doing a little bit of everything for you makes them so so valuable aj barner was a fourth round pick colby parkinson who is my guy for this he ranked sixth or seventh and that same stat, he had 366 run blocking snaps. He was also a fourth round pick that signed with the Rams for like eight and a half million dollars a year.

28:45Robert Mays: In a world where Tutu, I didn't say it on the show, we did with Charlie Kohler, I'll say it here. In a world where Deami Brown and Tutu Atwell are making 10 million bucks, the idea that you can get a Colby Parkinson for eight and a half million and Charlie Kohler for eight million and AJ Barner in the fourth round. These guys are extremely valuable because they can be on the field for you on every single snap. And I think I didn't go back and watch all of Barner's targets. I went back and watched all of Parkinson's targets. And the discussion we were having last week about, do you clear the bar as like a viable receiver and block?

29:18Robert Mays: Like, do you get there in both areas? With Parkinson, he's exactly that in clearing the bar as a receiver. A lot of his targets are exactly what you're talking about, where it's chipping, it's late releasing, it's being an outlet in the flat and trying to do a little bit of something after that. And I think as more teams, we talked about this last week, if in a world where we're using a ton of under center play action still, but a lot of those chunk plays that were available to you seven or eight years ago, because teams are playing more single high or not getting more guys out in the route and trying to have more underneath completions off play action, the same way the Rams did all ton last season.

29:56Robert Mays: I think that's going to be really important, and both of these guys allow you to do that. But at the same time, if you want to run him on a corner route, he can do that, right? Like, he's not—even at 6 '7", 265 or whatever, he can do that for you. You can throw some design screens to him, and they can turn into positive plays. He doesn't have to be Colston Lovell under Terrence Ferguson for him to have value for you in the passing game. And I think that's true for both A.J. Barner and Colby Parkinson. set that's especially like corner routes that's such a good one to use because like the difference between like a loveland or ferguson is that if you're running them on deep crossers or seam routes and stuff like you would like them to actually be able to run away from people a little bit but if it's a corner route throw it a little bit high if it's out of bounds it's out of bounds but this guy's 6 '6 with a huge wingspan maybe he can go and get it for you and parkinson made a number of incredible catches last year barner had a handful of those as well like this this archetype of player really does go like a long way for you and they're not sexy like it's again AJ Barner had like three explosive plays last year and they were all super schemed up but like the fact that they can never they never have to be taken off the field and they give you at least like neutral value on every play like AJ Barner like a guy like AJ Barner doesn't have bad plays there might be plays where he just kind of like does nothing and he's just on the field and maybe it's a you know five yard game or whatever but he doesn't really have drops he doesn't really blow blocks like he doesn't really end up in the wrong spot like he just does the right thing and being able to have guys who raise your floor like that especially at the wide tight end position it really allows your other skill players to really shine in the way that they need to is that are like a slightly more expensive version of this over the last three or four years like cole comet dawson knox that's like the premium version of this where those guys were getting like 10 11 million dollars a year because there was a little bit more pass catching compared to the blocking but i'm 100 % with you.

31:48Robert Mays: And I think that that ability to be on the field all the time, to do a little bit of everything, it's you feel how important that is. And last year, I can't remember what week it was or what team I was watching. I think it was it was it was the inverse where I was watching the Eagles offense. And I tweeted something about how you can tell how good an offense is in 2025 by how much their tight ends want to block and how good they are at it. And I think that both A.J. Barter and Colby Parkinson are very good expressions of that. Like those guys being the tight ends, they're going to play the most snaps for you really does bleed into what your offense feels like overall and what it's capable of accomplishing overall.

32:27That's such a great point because I, I actually didn't go back and watch all of AJ Barner's targets. I went back and watched all of Seattle's explosive runs just to see like, what are they doing behind AJ Barner? And there's one against the bucks where it's in the middle of the first corner. And it's just outside outside zone toward uh barner's side and yaya diabi's lined up a yard or two outside of him in kind of a wide alignment and aj barner just takes one step to him and knocks him completely out of the club and it gives kenneth walker an easy crease through the through the sea gap to get like a 10 yard gain and it's just like he does that every play man like just every play he gives you that kind of effort and that kind of ability so again those guys even if the the 12 yard gain doesn't go on A.J.

33:10Barner's stat sheet. It only happens because you have guys like A.J. Barner.

33:14Robert Mays: I remember talking to Mike McDonald before the season last year, and we were just talking about the offense kind of finding a similar attitude to what their defense had found in the back half of the 2024 season. And when I was asking him, like, who are the guys that you think that can be rooted in, like the guys who can be at the center of you developing that on offense, A.J. Barner was the first guy that he mentioned. So, like, A.J. Barner, even before last season started, was treated as like a potential focal point, even if it's not in terms of like targets or attention or anything like that, but it's a potential focal point in how we want our offense to feel.

33:49Robert Mays: That was the first guy out of their head coach's mouth for a team that eventually won the Super Bowl. And I think that's very telling. Having Mike McDonald mentioned an offensive player in training camp, that means he's giving us some sort of issue. And I'm going to trust that Mike McDonald has the right eye for that. All right, so I want you to do one more because those are three of my four because I lumped in Parkinson with A.J. Barner. So who's your next one here? So I have these two guys I'm going to group together because I think this is less about defining like these teams necessarily defining the season or whatever it's going to be.

34:21But I think this style of player has become really important in the NFL. Reed Blankenship and Evan Williams are like the perfect encapsulation of the type of safety where all these teams that are playing quarters and want to play cover six, but their change up off of that is we're going to rotate late and play cover three and he's going to be like a hook defender working down into the box as a late run fitter. Reid Blankenship and Evan Williams are exceptional at this. Like there have been guys in previous versions of the NFL who were a little bit bigger and they're 220 and they're ready to be like a linebacker pre-loaded into the box but these guys are a little bit smaller they have to play from depth but to do that you need to be able to see it well you need to be able to time up your angles correctly you need to be able to adjust on the fly, like have the agility and you still need to be able to hit people.

35:06And both of these guys are really, really good at it. Like the more I watch both of their defenses, I just come away being like, those two guys are really good football players.

35:15Robert Mays: I'm so glad that you did this because I was trying to figure out who like the archetypal safety would be to have this sort of discussion. And I kept going back to the Rams guys, but I didn't want another Rams player after picking Colby Parkinson. So I just bypassed the safeties overall. So I'm very glad you brought it back around to this because I do think it's a really important idea with how much pre-snap too high stuff that we've seen around the league over the last four or five years. Yeah, and it's like, and these, to be clear too, like these guys are also pretty good players in coverage.

35:44Because again, if the cover three roll down into the box, be these late, you know, hook players, that's like part of it. But that is a little bit the change up. These teams want to live in quarters. They want to live in cover six and have these guys be like hash safeties. Both of them, I think, are really good. And I would even say like Evan Williams in 2024 showed flashes as a rookie and then was really, really good in 2025. I thought Reed Blankenship, I think up until 2025, I was like, he's he's a fine role player. He does what he does. And the more I watch him in 2025, the more I watch the Eagles, I'm like, I don't know, man.

36:16He's just kind of like actually a good player. And so I just think the way that he sees some stuff, he had a breakup. Actually, it's funny. I was watching the Cowboys offense for the lingering question show that we did. And he had a breakup in the red zone, Reed Blankenship did, where he's just running with a crosser and like makes this incredible diving over the back play in front of the receiver. And I'm like, to be able to do that and play the run the way that he does, like he just I think he's a really good football player.

36:42Robert Mays: If you were trying to explain to someone what makes a good split field safety, like as we've moved into this world and we need more of them, what makes a player like that effective in coverage? How would you describe that to somebody? It's a great question. I would say a couple of things. I think one, those positions often ask you to be a little bit flat footed when you're playing like on the hash and be able to read stuff and click and close. And so you have to have that ability to anticipate routes, know how is the defense trying to like high low me or, you know, try to, you know, get my eyes going one way and then they throw back the other.

37:17I think you have to be really, really good at that. And I think both of these players are. And then off of that, the execution element of that, I think the guys who can flip their hips and immediately get into gear those are the guys who I think are really good in this like split field world like watching Reed Blankenship like turn to run with a crosser and just go and take it is more impressive to me than when I watched like I was again watching the Niners defense um when we were doing that lingering question so watching like Jair Brown try to do it he can kind of see it but his ability to like flip his hips and just go and start to run is not the same as a guy like uh Blankenship or to me like Evan Williams and so I think those are kind of the two elements of it on top of you got to be able to hit and tackle in this defense because the whole the whole part of it is like well we're lighter in the box because our safeties can come down and tackle so i was looking it up when you were talking because i was curious

38:09Robert Mays: so reed blankenship's contract with the texans 8.25 million dollars a year let's go back to our buddy charlie coler just as like an expression of that idea of that kind of tight end 8.1 million dollars a year this is kind of the pool we're talking about when it comes to these very specific and lower profile roles as part of very good offenses or very good defenses i think that this is where free agency can be really useful where you can go out and you can spend pretty marginal money on starting level players with these specific roles and you just feel their presence kind of bleed into what you feel like overall on that side of the ball and I think that Reed Blankenship is a very good example of that on the defensive side of the ball the other safety kind of archetype that I was going to mention was the like Alohi Gilman Jalen Hawkins I'm gonna be a capable safety in these sorts of defenses that allows you to take your best player and play him where you want him play you play him where you want to so lohi gilman is this uh was was this for the chargers and then it became this for the ravens like he had to do it twice and so i do think those types of guys are very important as you're building the rest of that room because if more of these really good safeties who can play safety very capably in base defense are going to move into the nickel when you do that you need that third safety in order to give you that sort of flexibility.

39:43Robert Mays: And so I do think that type of player becomes really important if you want to play this type of defense. And that kind of is the reciprocate of the tight end movement, right? Like if everyone needs a second tight end who can come on the field and blocks so that we can do whatever we want with our primary tight end, it's like the flip side of that is having a safety so that we can take our other guy and match them up how we want to or put them in the post when we really want them there, whatever it's going to be. And so that is like the one step down version of what I'm talking about with like Reed Blankenship and Evan Williams, these guys who probably are not very good at anything, but can be in the right spot and can tackle well enough.

40:18And it allows you to put your star players in the position you want them to be in. That's kind of the theme of this show. It's like guys who allow you to put your star players in the positions that you want them to be in.

40:28Robert Mays: Well, I'm about to cheat and come back with a star player after we take one more break. So I'm playing in a softball league this summer, and it's great. I'm having a ton of fun. Baseball was a sport that I played my entire life. I was pretty good at it. If we're going to let myself pat me on the back for a sec, always came naturally. And my brain still works the way it did when I was younger, when I was a little bit better at the sport than I maybe am right now. I'm playing shortstop, ball gets it to my left, a ball gets it to my right. And my brain still thinks, okay, that's a ball I can get to.

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43:35Robert Mays: All right, so like I alluded to earlier, the guy I was going to put here originally was Tarheeb Still. And it's for this reason. When I look at the best defenses in the NFL from last year, and especially what they were doing in the second half of the year, The amount of dime defense that we are seeing from teams like the Rams, teams like Seattle, especially in the second half of last season when they started getting healthier in the secondary, the Chargers play a ton of dime. And so you think about the Chargers. In nickel, they want Derwin James as that nickel player. That is his primary role within the defense now when they have five DBs on the field.

44:13Robert Mays: When they bring six DBs on the field, that's when you can bring a more traditional nickel player who can be a little bit undersized inside as that second inside corner. And that's what Tarheep still was for the Chargers. When they would be in nickel, he'd be on the outside. When they'd go into dime, he'd slide inside a guy like Cam Hart or Dante Jackson would be that second outside corner. And so I was going to talk about Tarheep still, but as I kept thinking about it and kept going a little bit further down the road for like the perfect expression of this player, it's Devin Witherspoon. And it's Devin Witherspoon for this specific reason.

44:47Robert Mays: it's the pass rushing element of this like having that guy as a viable pass rush threat somebody you can really play around with as you like dial up these crazy pressures that a team like the seahawks is capable of doing he's the best possible version of that he had 21 pressures from the slot last year devin witherspoon did that was the most in the nfl and you just think about the efficiency of those plays he's not rushing the passer that much to have that many pressures over the course of the season. Like it's absolutely ridiculous. And why I think this is like, it doesn't take a lot of imagination or ingenuity to land on why Devin Witherspoon is an important player, but how I would project this moving forward.

45:30Robert Mays: Last year, the Seahawks were in dime on 27 % of their plays from week 10 on. That was the third highest rate in the league. Again, as the guys in the back half started getting healthier again, Julian Love, et cetera. on second and seven plus. So second down we're talking about here. Seattle played dime on 43.4 % of their snaps in the back half of the season. And that was the point I wanted to get to here. It's not just about the amount of dime defense we're seeing. It's the amount of dime defense we're seeing based purely on down and distance situation. And I think the Rams did a very good job of this early in the year where it didn't have to be third down for them to start playing in these packages and treating it like third down.

46:12Robert Mays: And I think that's what you're going to see here from the best defenses in the league. We've talked about this a little bit over the last couple of weeks. Offenses want to make sure they're playing early downs as often as possible, even on third down, right? If it's third and five, but you think I can run the ball, it's no longer really third down. Well, if you're an offense that is really, really pass heavy and get back on track situations where it's second and seven plus, that then allows the defense to play third down twice. And I think Seattle and what they did in the back half of last year, they're the best possible example of this.

46:50Robert Mays: Because if it's second and seven plus and they're in dime and Devin Witherspoon's playing that other inside spot, you're getting heated up. Like you have to play third down twice in a row. And I think Seattle did a very good job of kind of illuminating the drawbacks of that if you are an opposing offense. And that's what makes him the like special version of this player is that he is so aggressive. He's so fast to see it. He wants to hit you so hard. So when you're lighter on the field in terms of body type and body count, you don't lose anything. You do not lose pass rush juice. You do not lose aggressiveness.

47:23You do not lose any ability to tackle people. Like I, it's funny, I was looking this up for Kamari Lasseter, who I might talk about at the end of this Devin Witherspoon thing, because I think they, for similar reasons, are very valuable players. but Kamari Lasseter last year had 41 stops as a pure outside corner which stops are like tackles of like a negative EPA that are good for the defense by rate the next guy and the only guy really even in his stratosphere is Devin Witherspoon on his outside snaps which was he had 399 outside snaps and 21 stops if you bring all of Devin Witherspoon snaps he's really the only other corner that has 40 plus stops all the other dbs are safeties which makes sense right like Hufanga being down near the line and stuff like that.

48:03But having a corner like Devin Witherspoon, the reason he can move, I think when we immediately think of moving inside out, it's like, well, because he can cover inside out. And it's like, no, it's because he can hit when he's inside. He can impact the game inside out.

48:19Robert Mays: He can affect the offense inside out. It's not just about coverage ability. And so more and more of these guys that, you know, again, you don't want them in the nickel necessarily on early downs because maybe you want a little bit more size in there. But if you play some dime in defined passing situations, the size becomes less important and the juice becomes what is important. And that is exactly what Devin Witherspoon is giving you in those situations. Yeah, he's an awesome player. I had one more thing about Devin Witherspoon that I find. He has like a unique gift I find for when his back is to the ball as a coverage player, he just knows how to throw a hand up and find it.

48:56I swear that he does this once a month where he just has an incredible play. like eyes behind his back throws it up and part of that is you know you're reading the receiver where they throw their hands up but like he the way that the reliability at which he could do it is actually like pretty pretty startling and unique he's a cool player the last number i wanted to

49:13Robert Mays: throw out just again talking about where some of this might be going because it to me it is kind of a response to if offenses are going to be trying to dictate to defenses with personnel where it's like all right this personnel is making you play a certain way i think a good response to defenses is we're not going to respond to the personnel you're playing. We're going to respond to the down and distance situation that that personnel is in. And so you're seeing more defense. I would be surprised if we didn't see more defenses try to play a higher rate of dime in some of these second long situations this year.

49:47Robert Mays: So there are four teams that were dancing around 20 % or more playing against 12 personnel on second and seven, 20 % dime or more this year, or like right around 20%. It was Baltimore, the Rams, the Patriots, the Seahawks, and the Chargers. And I think that is a good collection of teams to look at when we're thinking about situationally how some of these defenses might respond. So even, again, it's 12 personnel, and so you'd think at worst you're playing nickel on those plays, but those five teams played about 20 % or more dime against 12 personnel in those situations because they were playing the down and distance more than they were the offensive personnel that they were seeing.

50:29Robert Mays: And I do think we're going to see more and more teams start doing that. Or at least we should. I think that is a proper response. All right. You mentioned Kamaru Laster. Who else did you want to talk about? Yeah. So I have, I of course had to throw a linebacker in here because that's what I do. And I think there were a number of incredible linebackers this year, but I think one that I think helped paint how the 2025 season was shaped, Robert Spillane for the New England Patriots was like... I should have known this is coming back around. This guy was awesome, dude. Like he was just a really, really good player for them.

51:02And there was, I think there are a number of factors for this to be the case. Because like on-off type of splits are really difficult. In the first Bills game that the Patriots played, they allowed 71 rushing yards. And so many of those plays, Robert Spillane is just kicking ass. Like there was a play, I think in the first half, where they're trying to run counter his way. Reggie Gilliam is coming outside as the outside puller. He steps down so fast to the line of scrimmage, lights him up and Jelani Tavai just like cleans it up for a one yard gain. Just he brings that sort of oomph and like ability to just see plays through in the run game, especially like between the numbers really, really well.

51:37In the second Bills game they played without him, they ran for about 180 more yards than that. It was about 250 yards. And so that's not all a Robert Spillane effect, of course, but there is an ability that his ability to just see things, to make sure guys are lined up the right way, to come down and take back space, which is a thing that I've talked about that I think is really, really important for linebackers right now. Like I even had like a tier under this guy that I think kind of explains it. Denzel Perryman, like the on off splits for him for the Chargers defense in terms of their run defensibility because of what he does taking back space is really important.

52:11And so I just think when you look at the way that the Patriots defense was really able to like rally in the playoffs and become a good run defense when Spillane was on the field, he to me just felt like a guy who, again, we talk about the Patriots defense with like the play calling that Zach Curry did down the stretch and like, oh, the defensive tackles and Christian Gonzalez is incredible. The safeties. Spillane at a certain point just kind of got forgot about, but he was a very, very good player for them.

52:38Robert Mays: I would love to know. We should keep a running count, Katie. about how many sub 6-2 linebackers Derek is going to talk about on this show over the course of this entire lifespan how many like fire hydrant linebackers like downhill pluggers we're going to have mentioned the amount of times Denzel Perryman has come up on this podcast compared to like where he how much you would expect the ratio is pretty out of whack in a way that I actually really appreciate I think I think maybe in NFL history the two players that I love the most relative to like what they actually were as players in terms of like what what they should be talked about are Denzel Perriman and Alandon Roberts and they're both like 5 '11 235 pounds just want to hit something I love them so much so beyond what Splane is actually doing why do you think it's important now compared to how important it would have been in like previous I was gonna say eras it that that makes it seem linear let's say previous spots on the cycle that we're in Right.

53:38Robert Mays: Like if the NFL is a circle, we're talking about where we are on the circle. So why is Robert Spillane important now compared to how important he might have been at other points along this cycle? So I think part of it is that when we lived in more of a one high world and more of a penetration, just trying to get into the backfield world, you didn't need as much people cleaning things up. You just needed somebody to be right and be fast enough. I think now we live in a world where you need your linebackers to be able to see things a little bit cleaner. You need them to be able to clean up plays and you need them to be able to buy back space in the run game.

54:15Like the difference between them meeting a guard a half a yard past the line of scrimmage and a yard and a half past the line of scrimmage is the difference between like a 25 yard run and a one yard run. And that doesn't feel like a lot, but that is enough for the best running backs in the league to go make an incredible play. And guys like Robert Spillane and to a slightly lesser degree, Denzel Perryman do a really good job of like buying back that space, making sure they're squeezing as much air out of the run fit as possible. even if it's not necessarily for them to make the stop it's so that you know your safety coming down whether it's a low he Gilman or I guess in Spillane's case like Jalen Hawkins or Craig Woodson so that they have time to get in there and make their fit from depth Craig Woodson also

54:59Robert Mays: talking about run stopping safeties that was the most impressive thing he did last year he was phenomenal in that area like they've got multiple guys in the second and third level of that defense that are very willing tacklers and I think you saw that consistently for them for the Patriots throughout last season. All right. Anybody else? Anybody else that was on your list? Anybody, any honorable mentions, passing mentions that you wanted to hit before we got out of here? No, those were really it for me. Again, maybe I'll like throw my little bit more love at Kamari Lasseter real quick and try to say my spiel here.

55:28I feel like I've been teasing it for this entire show. He was kind of in the line that you mentioned with Byron Murphy. How many guys would you talk about on the Texans defense before you actually get to Kamari Lasseter? Like he...

55:38Robert Mays: So I think it's a lot when it comes to star power, but I know. And so I'm, I'm not like a reliable narrator on this because I know how central he is to their identity and just what sort of character he's kind of become for the organization in general, where I think them landing on him in the draft, them kind of looking at some of his limitations, the 40 time, all of that stuff. and just being like, no, this is like our dude. Like he's our kind of dude. I that's he represents something to them. And so I think because of that, he has a little bit more prominence in the way that I think about the Texans defense, maybe compared to how somebody who just watches them every Sunday would think about that.

56:25But but that attitude is what I mean, like the like why he because, again, he was he was a part of a defense that was so good that we watched the Texans offense and we're like, I still kind of think this team can make a run. And it's partly because of the way that a guy like Kamari Lasseter plays. Like I mentioned it in the Devin Wittishman thing. Lasseter is among the craziest corners that we have in the NFL. Like we usually talk about these guys as nickels, but he is an outside corner who wants to step down and just destroy people. Again, he had 41 stops, which are plays that are good tackles for the defense, like produce negative EPA for the offense.

57:03He had 41 of them as a cornerback aligned on the outside. The next closest had 33. Like he's in his own universe in terms of like stepping down, blowing up screens, making sure guys aren't getting yak. Like he is just a phenomenal player in that respect. And then downfield and coverage. Think about the difference in what it feels like when teams throw at the Denver Broncos Broncos number two corner in Riley Moss and what it feels like when teams throw at the Texans number two cornerback in Kamari Lasseter. kamari lacheter will make you pay like he's not perfect but he will make you pay for throwing at

57:38Robert Mays: him one of my favorite things said about an nfl player over the last five years number one still by far is jordan lewis talking about isaiah pacheco saying he run like he bite people that is the classic number one like by far number one like pacheco run like he bite people is one of the greatest bits of commentary ever made about an NFL player in the same general vein, Nico Collins this year talking about Kamari Lasseter in the locker room. And he just goes, Kamari, he ain't right. He's not. And that's why he's perfect. That's why he is a perfect football player. You need those guests. You absolutely need those guys.

58:18Robert Mays: And I think Kamari Lasseter is definitively one of them. All right. This is fun. I think to me, again, this kind of feels like even though we talked about tight ends again, this kind of does feel like an echo of the tight end conversation that we had last week so moving beyond why certain archetypes at that position are important to the league is currently operating what archetypes at some other positions are an expression of just the way the nfl game feels today so being able to hit what do we talk about eight seven eight different positions like i think that again feels like a nice counterpoint to the tight end conversation that we had last week so really enjoyed doing this.

58:56Robert Mays: For now, that is all we've got. We'll be back with our next mailbag on Monday. For now, appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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1:00:12app.

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