Our surprisingly intrusive NFL thoughts

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1:25Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, me and Derek are talking about just some things we can't believe have come across our minds over the course of this offseason. Now that we're into May and June, just deeper into the offseason and everything has been settled. You know, we had so many kind of stray thoughts about the trends around the NFL, certain positions being valued, about specific teams. And so we're going to kind of consolidate some of those thoughts today down to the ones that have just been a little bit surprising. Like you've been sitting back and taking a look at the league and be like, man, I can't believe that this happened.

2:04Robert Mays: We're going to hit about eight of those today. Just things that for whatever reason have either snuck up on us or just have been a little bit hard for us to wrap our arms around. The thing that inspired this was kind of me talking about the Cowboys earlier, like last week, and talking about the Cowboys offseason and just being a little bit struck by how optimistic I was about the Cowboys. So our thought was, how many of those are there? Like, how many surprising thoughts or opinions have we had, either about teams, players, or the league in general, over the last couple months that we can talk about today?

2:34Robert Mays: So really enjoyed this set of conversations with me and Derek. Let's get to it right now.

2:49Robert Mays: This show is a product of a few different things. You and I were talking the other day, Derek, just about some ideas, things we wanted to do over the next month. And we were talking about just how struck I was during the conversation we were having about the Cowboys in the buy or sell show and the buy or sell segments we were doing. And I almost couldn't believe how bought in on the Cowboys I was, given my personal experience with them over the last couple of years. And so I wanted to do an entire show now that we're this deep into the offseason and we can get away with shit like this about some of the things as the offseason has gone, as we've moved through the entire free agency period, the draft, the combine, everything.

3:28Robert Mays: And now we're in the quiet time. What are some things that have come across your mind that have been points in the discourse that you're kind of like, man, I just can't believe this is happening, whether for you personally or just associated with the league. And so that's what we're going to talk about today. we're going to talk about just a handful of things that even if intellectually we understand them are still for some reason kind of hard to come to kind of hard to come to grips with as we get into June here I mean this is good too because again I think the last show that we did before we're recording this I don't know when all these are releasing we're on a weird schedule but the last one we recorded was um I was talking about the Seahawks and I had the similar experience to you with the Cowboys where it's like I felt like every move they made I hated it in the moment And then I looked up at the end and I was like, this is fine.

4:15And they're probably OK. They're probably going to be like the fourth best team in the NFL again. I'm not really that worried about it.

4:20Robert Mays: It's fun just to kind of come out on the other side of wrestling with some of these ideas. And either your mind changes or, again, you're just a little bit caught off guard by however you're processing some of this stuff. And so I thought this would just be a fun opportunity to wrestle with a group of those ideas or thoughts or trends or whatever they happen to be. This started, I think, as a I can't believe I think that about this team. and then morphed into a little something different as I thought about just some of the other things that have struck me over this offseason, whether it's you look at the contracts that were handed out or the way that the draft unfolded.

4:53Robert Mays: A lot of this, I think, is driven by the discussions I've had with people, whether they were at the Combine or I talked to a lot of people after the draft. I think that's just a good time. Everyone's very busy, you know, still onboarding and doing offseason stuff, but everyone's a little bit. Their guards are down a little bit. It's just an easier time to kind of catch up with people because no one's holding on to state secrets about what their team is going to do in the draft. And so these are motivated, inspired by a whole host of things. But I think we have about eight or so discussions that I'm really looking forward to.

5:24Robert Mays: So why don't you kick us off? What is the first thing that, as you have sorted through the offseason here, you kind of can't believe you think? I'm trying to decide because I have a couple of team ones that feel takey. And then I have a couple ones that more are just stuff I want to chew on. We'll get some of the team ones out of the way. I genuinely can't believe I kind of want to watch the Steelers offense. This is not optimism. I want to be clear. I want to be clear. I'm not sure they're going to be good. But last year, you could not convince me that there was a world where it would be fun or good.

5:58Like all they had was DK Metcalf. You had Aaron Rodgers coming off the season that he had. And a lot of that is still true. But now there are at least other pass catchers there. and there's some amount of new that it's like, I don't think it will be good, but you can convince me to watch it this year in a way that last year you just really couldn't. Let's talk about this.

6:18Robert Mays: So what is the environment that would make watching the Steelers offense a good time for you on Sunday? Because part of the problem that I have with this is that this version of Rodgers, it's not even just about quality. Quality is whatever. You can be a bad quarterback and I can still enjoy watching it. The way he plays the position now is just so not compelling and so frustrating for me to watch. And that doesn't feel like it's going to change even if the pieces around him are better. I kind of think the die is cast with what he is as a quarterback now. And so kind of taking that into account and acknowledging that that probably isn't going to change.

6:59Robert Mays: I just don't know how compelling the rest of it needs to be for me to enjoy it. Again, I don't have any issues with how the rest of it was put together. I like it and I'm excited about it. But when it comes to my own personal experience, if I'm watching the Steelers on Sunday, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where the rest of it is so cool that I'm not. It's not totally colored by how frustrated I am watching him play the position. Well, so that's the thing. I don't think it's going to be cool. And I don't think he's going to be any different. He's 40 whatever years old. He's barely signing just now a couple of days ago.

7:31Like he's going to be what he's going to be. But I do think that two different things are true. One, the skill sets that they have around him are more conducive to the way that he wants to play, where it's a lot of 11 personnel. We're going to be able to spread it out last year. That was even if that's not the ideal way to run an offense last year, they couldn't do it. And that's the only way that he needs to function. And so they have that element of it. And also, again, last year.

7:53Robert Mays: What makes you say that, though? Is that is this truly just like being able to spit the ball out to Jeremy Bernard? because I think about like where but the areas the field that Michael Pittman accesses are not areas the field where this man wants to throw the football oh I don't think that's true I think Michael Pittman's really good in the one to ten and that's all Rodgers wants to do and I think give me give me like in a specific like route idea where you can imagine Michael Pittman and Aaron Rodgers I'm open to it give me like a specific sort of idea where you imagine Aaron Rodgers and Michael Pittman coexisting in a way that you enjoy literally any of the routes where a guy has to sit in zone stick routes spot routes uh running to the right spot on like drag I'm telling you like it's all the boring shit but it's like he's gonna be open on a lot of those and he knows where to find it playing around that's fine yeah that's an acceptable answer I just it's that's so boring and that's like such a milquetoast like way to spin it but did they have a guy like that last year i guess not at that position i guess not the problem this and why this is so surprising to me is that on the honorability scale oh he's what he's currently doing he is playing quarterback as dishonorably as you possibly can right now and so for you specifically it just feels like this is a bridge too far so i'm just surprised to hear you say this because listen, I don't think I'm going to enjoy it.

9:19Again, he is the way that he is and he plays a disgusting brand of football at this point. But I can at least see the world where the offense is good enough this year. And last year there was, you could not convince me that world existed. I still don't think we'll get there, but at least it's on the table now in a way that I truly do not believe it was there last year at all.

9:37Robert Mays: I like you doing this because I think this challenges the way that I've talked and thought about them for most of the off season because I think that I've been a little bit too binary with it, where because he's there, I have to throw the rest out when it comes to quality. In terms of aesthetics and values and whether or not I think it's, again, there's an honorability to it, that I think we know the answer, but that doesn't mean it can't be functional enough to keep them competitive. And even if I think it could have been better and more interesting with a different option, that doesn't mean that this version of it can't get to at least an acceptable level.

10:12Robert Mays: And so I think I should be more open to that than I am. It's just been hard for me to embrace those thoughts because so many of the other ones are toxic enough that it kind of pushes it away. Because even the best version of this is not cool to watch. We convince ourselves on other things that might be more of a stretch because if it is good, it might be fun to watch. Like last year's Raiders offense, if it was good, it would have been fun to watch. But that's just not even really true of this year's Steeler team. And so I think that's why it's a little bit hard to get there. But and again, I think the other thing, too, I'm not even making the case that Aaron Rodgers can be an average quarterback again.

10:47I think we're both like that ship has sailed. He's more realistically quarterback 24 or whatever. But there's always a handful of offenses every year who like are an average offense despite having quarterback 24. And I feel like the Steelers might be able to do that.

11:01Robert Mays: And that feels like the best case scenario, too, right? If you're an average offense and you can acknowledge by the end of the season that he's quarterback 24, forward you can at least spin it forward and say okay if we get better quarterback play in here whether it's quarterback 16 or quarterback 12 we go the veteran route if we get a young quarterback in here in 2027 that we're excited about somebody we trade up for whatever it is it doesn't honestly doesn't matter it's like whatever the more compelling quarterback path is if they're an average offense with him at court as quarterback 24 then i think you can start talking yourself into what the Steelers can be on like a multi-year level.

11:36Exactly. And like after last year or like going into last year, I just don't even think we could have convinced ourselves that was on the table. And then the last like cherry on top.

11:43Robert Mays: Yeah, because they were like an oddity. And like the entire offense was a curiosity with him. Now it feels like we're less in that place. I get what you're saying. I do think that there's a reasonable path here. It's not just about the curiosity and like him anymore. It's like this could just be like a regular 18th best offense in the NFL. And then the other last thing, last year, I think part of the calculus with the offensive line and watching them was like, oh, maybe Broderick Jones takes his step. But I feel like we were so far into it that that was not as interesting as now the other young tackle being Max Zianatra.

12:14That is a little bit more interesting to watch where it's a rookie now thrown into them.

12:17Robert Mays: Yeah, the entire offensive line. Like, Fatano now in, like, his full second year. Like, it's just there's so many different guys that's like, I can't wait to watch this group and see if it can all come together. And we'll see what happens. Like does Dunker play early? Is that something that we're interested in? I just think there's so many layers of intrigue with the offense beyond him that I get what you're saying. Even if we're acknowledging all of that stuff is still true with the quarterback, I think there's enough going on elsewhere where it's like, okay, I actually am interested in this way more than I thought I would be.

12:49Robert Mays: My first one here, this is the scope on this is so wide and we could talk about this is a show in and of itself and it probably will be. But I've been thinking about this a lot for a bunch of different reasons. There was a lot of Barnwell wrote about the 13 personnel stuff last last week for ESPN. Just, you know, what that meant for the Rams. What do it mean for the league? A couple of guys in the fantasy space wrote some interesting stuff about over the last couple of weeks. Jacob Sanderson, whose work I really enjoy, did something on his sub stack just about this movement to a multi tight end world and how kind of it mirrors what's happened in the NBA over the last 15 or 20 years.

13:24Robert Mays: as we've gone from this Warriors death lineup where you don't have a guy over 6 '7", to now getting back to a place where big men were so important the way the league operated. And it extends to other things. Watching Devon Achan get this contract and not even blink about it and just think about, well, if Bijan and Jameer Gibbs made$20 million, I don't think I should be surprised by that. I think that's probably what they deserve to make in the current market, even if that feels rich for a position that we weren't paying very much. I think the thread that ties all this stuff together is this. I shouldn't be surprised by this as somebody who has covered the league and watched it and paid attention to it the way that I have over the last 15 years.

14:02Robert Mays: But I'm still struck by how resilient the evolution of the sport is. Like if there is blank space to be found, if there is an inefficiency, if there is a pivot, how inevitable and forceful and hammer like the downswing in the cycle feels. and how this cyclical element of it just being driven home in the way that it has been this offseason, even if it's not surprising, it's been very cool to watch. It's been a reminder of how beautiful and alive the sport is in that wherever that blank space is, the coaches and the players and the people associated with this game are good enough that they are going to find it.

14:43Robert Mays: And I think this spring specifically has really been a very stern reminder of that. Yeah. Well, I think what's always beautiful about it is, is, you know, on some level, what's going to come, right? Like when we got a lot lighter and we got a lot more pass heavy, you know, intuitively like, okay, at some point the swing has to be that we're going to get heavier, but it's, you never know what exactly that's going to look like. Are the body types at running back going to change? Are we going to get more bell cows the way that we had 20 years ago? Is it going to be body types at tight end changing?

15:11Is it going to be like we've gotten more 12 and 13 personnel where you just put more of them on the field? Are body types at tackle going to change our offensive line where teams are like, we can get guys that are 10 pounds heavier and we want to be able to move instead of being like pure pass protectors we might have wanted, you know, 10, 12 years ago. Are body types at receiver going to be different? And I think that is even that is true. Like the pure, your pure like five, nine slot guys, they're just not as valuable as they were 10 years ago. And there just aren't as many of them that are good because that's just not the sport, the way that the sport has operated.

15:42And so I do love that. It's like you always know intuitively where it's supposed to go, but exactly like which dials get turned to what and how we arrive there is always different over the eras, just depending on. And I mean, now like that change is different than it could have been 25 years ago just because of some of like the different rule changes and stuff. Like it's just there's so many different things that go that go into it. And it's it's why the sport is the best.

16:07Robert Mays: And I think there it's fun because there's a tension between wanting to learn from what has happened in the sport over the last three, four years, two, three years. We're like, OK, I want to make sure that we're making optimized decisions based on what the game looks like right now in terms of resource allocation, where you're drafting certain players. Like there are things that you should tap into there in order to make sure you're making the best sets of decisions. But at the same time, if you're too mired in what the sport has looked like over the last four or five years, are you going to miss out on being in line and on time with the next thing around the corner?

16:44Robert Mays: And even something like the Jeremiah Love stuff where it's like, yeah, I'm open to the idea that like maybe this is right. Like maybe we should be investing more in this position because it's still undervalued. And I think in the veteran market, that's something where the offseason that we had with Saquon and Derrick Henry was a real important moment. Where if you want to spend on veteran players at those positions, they have immense value in certain situations. And I think kind of trying to remove yourself from running backs bad. It's there are nuances to that, like draft capital and what you're spending on them in the free agent market at the top of the market is very different.

17:22Robert Mays: Like you can spend$15 million on a running back now and be in a very good spot. Should you spend a top five pick on them? Because historically you find certain types of players that are a little bit more scarce in that range of the draft. I still think that's true. But at the same time, how quickly this all seems to be happening and the fact that it all it does seem to be coming back around there is a part of me that's kind of like well maybe we should be a little bit more skeptical about this stuff and so you don't want to be just totally frivolous in like how we're doing things and the lessons that you are in but I think you also want to be a little bit more open-minded to like how quickly things should be changing so I think there's a tension that has been really prevalent for me this spring and I think that push and pull of the running back contract versus selecting them in the top five is like the perfect example a little bit where it's I think once you have one of those let's just say top seven top eight running backs where he's a three down guy for you he's incredibly explosive paying them is not a problem so long as you're not paying for you know age 31 season or whatever that running backs do I think still have the age cliff and that is something you have to consider but paying them on that second contract if you think they're still going to be an elite level player no problem with that the draft is a little bit different though because of the opportunity cost of maybe it could be an address or maybe it could be a tackle whereas I think when you're paying him in the free agent market, it's still a certain amount of money, but they are already making so much less money than everybody else that it doesn't feel like that extra four million that you're paying to Jameer Gibbs or whatever is going to kill you in the cap.

18:46Robert Mays: And I also it's I think it plays into a lot of different things like where are the limits of that? Like, are we going to get to a place where we are paying them too much? Are we even close to that? And I think part of this is driven by the fact that at the core of it, I think this is why I've been thinking about this is that the sport changes at such a clip now. And I also think that's part of it. The for so many different reasons, the sport is changing. It's such an incredible pace right now that sometimes if you're attaching yourself to certain ideas of value or, again, like optimized efficiency, that stuff can change so quickly that if you if you're half a step behind, you're already getting left in the dust.

19:27Robert Mays: And so with how we even pay certain positions, it's like the safeties. Like, do we have the right framework and handle on how valuable safeties are right now based on how much they're paid? I think we could argue no. And so how should we be reconsidering that? Like, should we be paying them more? What are the limits of that? And I think part of the reason the sport is changing so fast, it's multifaceted. So many people have talked, written, podcasted about this over the last like five, ten years. But the way that information is available now where you can get any clip, any cut up, any stat about any granular element of the game immediately.

20:08Robert Mays: And so how quickly these trends are adopted, like the fact that the day to run on tight ends happened this year, the year after all this 13 personnel stuff with the Rams started, like it's immediate. It's instantaneous. The league's response to these sorts of things. And I think in part that's because the information and there's just no barrier to it. The information world is completely flat. And I also just think that the coaches at the top of the sport right now are so incredibly good at responding to whatever, again, that blank space is for them to start claiming. And I was talking to somebody about this recently, but I honestly think that because McVay and McDonald play against each other twice a year now, that that tension that's created is going to push things forward even faster.

20:57Robert Mays: I think you have the two most important thinkers on offense and defense in the sport in the same division playing each other twice a year in perpetuity until those guys leave. And number three is also in the division. Shanahan's also there, right? But like it's that like though that and there are certain moments and you know, I they've talked about this with themselves and I've talked to them about this where in 18 the Rams came to play the Ravens in practice and McDonald is like that moment of watching that Rams offense was like very central to like him thinking about defense in a different way.

21:31Robert Mays: And now I think that it's come back around where the Rams and teams like that having to play against this version of the Seahawks is going to push it forward. Remember, it used to be once a year. It was 18 when that happened. It was 23 when the Rams played the Ravens. And now we're in this place where it's twice a year. And so from so many different places, I just think that the sport is being pushed forward with like a speed and a vigor that I can't really remember. And I may not be giving enough credit to previous generations or eras or whatever, but it just feels so fast and so relentless right now, like the arc of the game and where it's going.

22:08Robert Mays: And I'm still struck by it, even if we have plenty of evidence to suggest that's how it's been. Well, and because I think and again, maybe I just don't have a good enough history for what 1990s schematic football looked like and how all those trends were happening. But like the fact that Shanahan McVay are so young and a lot of the guys that are off of their tree are still so young and their stars are rising. And now we're finally getting those with the defensive guys. It's not just that the like they're I think a lot of those guys are at the point where it's like they've gotten to a point where they are with coaching because they learn certain systems and all that.

22:39But they're also still so young and malleable in it that they're very willing to like iterate and create in a way that like if you are a 58 year old offensive play caller and head coach, maybe you just like it's like I run what I run. And you just don't feel the need to continue to push forward like that.

22:54Robert Mays: That's absolutely part of it. The same with the information, with that world now being flat, the fact that the coaching staffs are populated by all these very young guys now, I do think that leads to just like a hub of creativity and openness and just urgency in a way that might not have happened in other eras. And I think that's absolutely right. I think it is made for a very cool environment for all of this stuff to be happening in. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about a few more things we cannot believe we believe from this spring.

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25:59All right, what's your next one? So I'm going to go to something that's a little bit related in terms of how the sport is changing and what different body types we're using and stuff for so I started doing this in 2013 and really from the entirety of the time that I started doing that until maybe three years ago the idea was that even highly drafted tight ends this was going to be a three-year roadmap like this was going to take a while and even up until 2021 it felt like Kyle Pitts was the exception right like when he had that because he wasn't a tight end right exactly like he was barely a tight end he was barely playing the position And he was in line a little bit, but he was more of like a flex player.

26:36But over the last couple of years, we've gotten so many guys that feel like they break the mold that I do feel like we have become more open to the idea that these guys can just play early. And I'm trying to grapple with like, is that a product of the sport changing? Is that a product of coaches getting more used to using these guys who are different body types than they might have been 20 years ago? Or are we just on like a three-year heater of insanely talented tight ends like Sam Laporta and Brock Bowers and obviously Kyle Pitts at his, but last year, Tyler Warren, Harold, Harold, Fann and Colston Loveland, even Oronde Gadsden having a year that he had, I think was a pretty big blow up.

27:15And so I think the note I want to put on this statistically is that since what did I do? Rookies, rookie tight end since 2016. There have been nine players who had at least 40 receiving yards per game. It's Brock Bowers, Kyle Pitts, Sam Laporta, Evan Ingram, Tyler Warren, Harold Fannin, Colston Loveland, Aranda Gadsden, Dalton Kincaid. Almost all of those guys were the last three years outside of Kyle Pitts, who was not really a tight end. And then Evan Ingram, who like also not really a tight end when they drafted him. Like it's all happened very, very recently.

27:53Robert Mays: It's an impossible question to answer in terms of like if you're going to create like a pie chart of how I think the causes of this, how big are each individual piece? How big is each individual piece? I think the two that I'm willing to. I think they're all connected in some way. But the two that I would start with is that I think one of the reasons that tight end was such a difficult position to master or even get on the field and contribute early is that it was a multifaceted position by definition. Right. Like for the most part, if you look back traditionally at what tight ends have been tight ends, when you think about why tight ends and like the role that those guys play in the offense, you do truly have to be two different types of player at the same time.

28:37Robert Mays: You have to be able to hold up as a blocker and you have to be a receiver. That's a ton for a young player to be able to digest and put into action as a rookie. And I think that's part of the reason that very few guys were able to do it. I think that as body types have changed and coaching has gotten better, now you have more guys coming in that don't have to be multifaceted players. Or even if they, just by definition of the sport and the way the offenses are, they do have to do some blocking. These coaches are so good that they're consistently putting them in advantageous positions as blockers that aren't just, hey, you're going to be, you and this tackle are going to be on this tray on like a defensive end.

29:20Robert Mays: Like, good luck. Like, you are just an offensive lineman now. That's not what Sam Laporta did as a rookie. That's not what Colson Loveland did as a rookie. And so I do think that the overall quality of coaching has understood the best way to deploy these guys and minimize their weaknesses early on. And that's why they've been able to be more turned up contributors to these offenses. Yeah, I get that is the coaching point where it's like we're not just asking these guys to be put on the line of scrimmage and go and block. And I also think, too, because there has been a lot more 12 personnel, like teams are more willing to draft one of these tight ends when they already have a good one or already have a plan for who tight end two is going to be.

29:59And so this guy doesn't have to be the primary like why tight end when he walks in. Like Brock Bowers did not have to be that in Las Vegas when he walked in. Sam Laporta did not have to be that when he walked in. And some of them are right. Like Tyler Warren was immediately the number one guy. And you can get some guys who are like that. But like Dalton Kincaid, when the Buffalo Bills drafted him, did not have to immediately be their number one like wide tight end. And so I think there's that that kind of that element of it as well.

30:26Robert Mays: So do you think this like these types of players like the Dalton Kincaids and the Brock Bowers and these guys that are these like past first receiving tight ends? These guys aren't new. So do you just feel like the deployment of them has gotten better to the point that we don't notice them struggling or them being like diminished versions of what they could be? They're just good right away. I think it's a couple of things. I think because the sport has been changing even at the lower levels for like 15, 20 years. These guys are just better at it. Right. Like we're just like when they come in, they are just more ready to do it.

30:56I do think the deployment is a little bit better just in terms of what kind of blocks are we asking them to make? What kind of routes are we asking them to run? Where are they running from? I certainly think that there's that element of it too. And so I really do think it is like we're just getting better at it. I also, the part of it that I'm trying to wrap my head around the most is like, let's go back to 2017 where teams are a lot more, you know, 2017, 18, 19, where teams are a lot more 11 personnel. and we had a lot more of our slot receivers being a little bit guys who were smaller, a little bit quicker.

31:26Well, if our slot receiver is a little bit smaller and quicker and we get this move tight end, who's our only tight end on the field, you're kind of committing to a we cannot move anybody around sort of style. And so I think the league struggled a little bit to know what to do and how to deploy some of these guys and how to best use them. Whereas, again, when we get to an era where Dalton Kincaid is walking into a Buffalo Bills offense that is always has 12 personnel on the field or 21 or just is always heavy and willing to do that they kind of circumvent some of the issues that Kinkade might have because the offense is just built to kind of withstand some of his issues like players like that some of their issues

32:04Robert Mays: let's go back and watch more like 12 personnel football in a previous era to see exactly how some of these like f tight ends were used and because I just I remember that era of the league less right like i mean by the time i'm like really doing this we're drifting into that 11 personnel world that you're talking about that we like definitively live in now i'm looking up some of the numbers and because beyond like before 2010 you just don't have a lot of good information about like overall personnel usage and so i'd be curious to go back and look at like again if like when there was more 12 personnel in a previous era when we were heavier how were those second tight ends being used compared to how they're being used now that's something i'd like to learn more about just to get a better handle on it uh this one's a little bit more a human i guess is what i would say like a lot less schematic less as like less x's and o's but in talking to some people this spring and just kind of thinking about the decisions that teams are making i shouldn't be surprised by this again after paying attention to the league as long as I have, but I've still been struck by it as I really sat with it over the last couple months.

33:14It still is just jarring to me how flawed so many of these decisions are on like a big picture

33:24Robert Mays: level from these teams. And I don't even mean that as a criticism, but I think that sometimes when you're in our chairs and we're looking at the way that teams are operating and the choices they're making and the perspective they're taking with those decisions like you bring a really good example of this is dave talking about uh the browns maybe playing themselves out of quarterback this year because maybe they're going to be too good and they've added too much talent around the bad quarterback play to like be picking number one overall to find their next quarterback and i don't begrudge them for doing that like at a certain point you do have to build up the overall infrastructure to get there but i think you can make an argument that in order for the Browns to be the best team they possibly can be in like 2028 trading Miles Garrett right now in order to get the quarterback is still probably in the best interest of the Browns winning a Super Bowl at some point in the next five years like I think that's probably true but at the same time like I get why you don't want to do that like you have to compete to a certain level now you have to win enough games to keep your job they're trying to open a new stadium like if it's not miles garrett who are you gonna put on your season ticket info when you're sending out those emails like who would it even be right like we love carol swessinger like yeah exactly we love those guys but how much is that it's not it's not miles garrett he's not miles garrett and and i get again i'm trying to give teams grace in this because i think the disconnect for me is that too often i'm looking at this stuff and not remembering that human beings are making these decisions.

35:02Robert Mays: Like they have the same dynamics at their job, even if this is a very visible multi-billion dollar operation that you do at your job. Like there are people making decisions all over America in high leverage spots where, well, maybe this isn't the best guy to do this role, but I like this person. I've worked with this person. I'm familiar with this person. And even like the Daniel Jones signing with the Colts and like them bringing back Daniel Jones at that price tag. Like, I think we can all intellectually understand that Kyler Murray for a million dollars is better than Daniel Jones for forty four million dollars.

35:38Robert Mays: But it's a devil, you know, thing like they've done this before. There's a familiarity and a comfort there. And so watching them retreat back into it, even if we know it's probably the wrong choice, it's still easy to understand. And I think there's been a bunch of those this year where the comfort familiarity self-preservation all of these things drive decision making in this world more than we like to think given what's at stake and given how we like to play this on a spreadsheet and just like move the move the money around and sit there and like click buttons on the computer and that's just not how this works at all and i still am sometimes surprised by that when you actually like look under the hood and see how this stuff works this is so good after the draft because the draft really is like the biggest microscope on that, where it's like, I think when we're all doing mock drafts and playing out scenarios and talking about prospects, it's so easy for us to do whatever the thing is, where like if you hit the 90th percentile outcome, this is like a home run, this changes your franchise, all that stuff.

36:43But when you're some of these teams and in some of these situations, there's a little bit more value of just being like, I know this guy will hit the 70th percentile outcome of whatever his thing is. and I would rather get that. Like, I think a perfect example of one that I've even come around to support, but I had no idea that this was going to happen in the moment. The Titans taking Carnell Tate over a guy like Arvel Reese or something like that. It's like, sure, the upside for a guy like Arvel Reese and like the value of that position, if you want to play him at the edge, is so much higher than it might be with Carnell Tate.

37:17A player that I think everybody believes is going to be good, it is going to be solid, but maybe never going to be that all pro receiver obviously the the arvel reese thing has a higher

37:25Robert Mays: upside but if you're the carnell tate can't be jamar chase arvel reese could be micah parsons correct that is the exact way to put it it's but but on the flip side it's like the titans and even myself might feel like i'm positive that carnell tight tate will be as good as like chris godwin like a very solid like 1b receiver i'm confident he will be that and so if you're in the titan shoes and you're like Mike Borgonzi, you bring in this new staff, you're paying all this, you know, all these free agents and you have this quarterback that you just took number one overall. It is important for your success to make sure that that quarterback is extremely good and let this defensive head coach figure it out on defense.

38:04And I'm not sure that that's how that played out. Maybe they just didn't like Arbel Reese, but like from our position and how you can see it, it's like that's sort of how the just making sure we get on base sort of picks can happen.

38:15Robert Mays: And I'm not even trying to spin this in a really cynical way where I'm like, these guys are just sitting there making every decision thinking, how is this going to help me? I don't think that's how people are operating. I think it's just natural. But it's there in the back of your mind. Yeah, it's in the back of your mind. It's an unconscious thing. But I do think that it's driving so much more of this than I really think about in the moment. Like I try to ascribe the most optimal level of thinking and decision making and just like organ like seeing the board for what it is and being like, listen, we're going to do everything we can to make sure we're building the best roster possible to be a Super Bowl caliber team on the timeline where it's feasible.

38:58Robert Mays: and that's just not happening and it's a good thing to remind yourself of every so often as you like look at how every team functions and what the actual motivations and incentives are as they're moving toward whatever short or long-term goals exist it just makes things clear once you look at them that way even if you don't agree with them or don't love them it just makes things a little bit clear even and again this isn't not meant as a criticism but you're talking to people around the league, coaches, front office people. And it's just like, you, what I'll say is stuff is often less complicated than you make it out to be in terms of like why something happened or why a decision was made or what the thought process was, you know, the very high, high, high concept convoluted versions of things was like, well, maybe they did this because of like X, Y, and Z thing.

39:46Robert Mays: And it's kind of like, nah, it's simpler than that. Like they just don't like that guy. that stuff just happens more than i probably acknowledge and we should acknowledge it a little bit more often the titans again why did the titans pay wandell robinson an unbelievable amount of money because brian dable knows if he knows how to use it it's kind of that's that's all there is that's right that's right all and it's and that's that's why it's so funny because i think other teams talk about it in the way that we talk about it right i every team like Like any team looking at that is looking at the money given to Wanda Robinson.

40:22Robert Mays: Like, that's crazy. Right. Like they can't they can't fathom giving Wanda Robinson that amount of money. But it's easy for Brian Dable to do it. And so other teams say this about their competitors, the teams in their division. But then they can't get out of their own way when it comes to like their specific versions of it. Right. Like everyone falls prey to this and then is judgmental when it happens to somebody else. And that's just inevitably how it goes. Right. because I'm sure the Titans are looking at the Jaguars last year and being like, you traded what for a guy who's supposed to be a two-way player in 190 pounds?

40:55You know what I mean? Like, it's the same thing.

40:57Robert Mays: Yes, there are a lot of people that I'm sure are saying that about it. And then if they were in that position, would probably be willing to do pretty much the same thing. All right, what's your next one here? Let's see, what do I got here? I have one more team one and one more. So I'll go with one that I actually don't think this is true, but it is at least something that I've been thinking about this year based on how this year went. I'm surprised how quickly like quarterback run just went completely out of the meta. I love this one. I love this one. And I do think that there there's like half truths here.

41:31Like I think there is a schematic element of this, right? Like we used to live in a world where there was more four down front, heavy boxes. And when you were getting that, when it was a lot of cover three, a lot of cover one on a lot of these quarterback runs, you could isolate the end. We could read him and we could get to the perimeter. You can't really do that with the way that teams are playing now where they're more too high, they're lighter in the box. You have these alley fitters from your safety is kind of coming from depth and making sure that you can't get to the perimeter the same way.

41:57And so there's more air to run your quarterback between the tackles. Do you want to battering ram your quarterback, you know, 10 or 11 times between the tackles? I don't know. And so there is that element of it, which I do think has some staying power and truth to it. I also think that this year was just a weird year for all of our running quarterbacks. Like Jaden Daniels did not play for a lot of the season. Lamar Jackson was banged up for a lot of the season. Jackson Dart is kind of the perfect example of both where he did not play a lot of the season in part because he had the running style where he's running up the middle and bashing his head.

42:30Jalen Hurts is not the runner now that he was two or three years ago. And again, that one is, I think, partly because of the schematic changes, but also partly I think he's just slower. And so I'm trying to grapple with how much of this is just the players that were available last year or those guys changing and how much of this is like a real schematic difference in the NFL.

42:50Robert Mays: Do you think you started seeing I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if you look at the efficiency numbers on design quarterback runs specifically, even if you go back to 24, you started to see this happening where those that those used to be some of the most efficient plays in football. And that's as recently as like 2022, 2023. They were some of the most efficient plays in football. That stopped happening even in 2024. The arrow started pointing down. And so I don't think it's just about the guys who were hurt or not contributing to those numbers last year because I think we already started to see the direction of that trend.

43:24Robert Mays: I'm also wondering, and again, I think you're exactly right, like the cost benefit of even if these are mildly more efficient plays, which they're not really even anymore, is the juice worth the squeeze when it comes to injuring your quarterback like the quarterback is so important and that used to be one of the thoughts about quarterback running game in general is just like well we can't do it because the quarterback can't get hurt and then that went away for a second and now it's back again where it's just like well the quarterback's gonna get hurt why would we do this the last part of it i think is interesting we now have an avenue for these quarterbacks to create value with their legs but not necessarily put themselves in harm way to quite the same extent.

44:06Robert Mays: Us being more cognizant about the value of scrambles and how much they matter, does that change the calculus a little bit about, well, if we have a quarterback that can move, we need to make sure that we're running him a little bit. Your quarterback is probably going to give you value if he can move now as a scrambler. And I think we're aware of what that means. And so has the expression of the quarterback run game changed to scrambling more than quarterback design runs. And I know that's different. Like Jalen Hurts has been a better scrambler recently, but there are guys who are better runners than scramblers and there are guys that are better scramblers than runners.

44:40Robert Mays: But I do think we at least have an outlet for how the quarterback can change the game with his legs now in a way that we're starting to fully appreciate. Yeah, and I think, again, yeah, I think those guys who were athletes, like you could, in like, even like 2022, 2023, Justin Fields was not a good quarterback, but because of what he did purely as a designed runner, like you could kind of run an offense. I just don't know if you could do that now with a guy in the same way in like 2025 or 2026. And I think that does make it interesting in the sense of like when some of these really good athletes come out of the college game at the quarterback position.

45:15And a lot of these guys can run at this point now, like even Fernando Mendoza is not the craziest athlete, but you can run him and he can move. It is almost more important to find, do they just have like that scrambler's instinct? like Justin Fields that's the problem he's the best athlete on the field but he's not a good and natural just go type of scrambler and some guys can develop this like I think Baker Mayfield used to be very sporadic in terms of like his decision making for when was the right time to go and when wasn't but he has developed a better sense for when is the right time to pull the ripcord how to get there and stuff like that and so he's always had the athletic ability it was just something that he had to to kind of hone in and rein in and so I think trying to just I think if there's anything to maybe be learned from this it's what you're talking about where scrambling is obviously incredibly valuable but that just being an athlete does not make you a good scrambler and you can vice versa be a pretty good scrambler without being the best athlete on the field like Mayfield was like the second or third most effective scrambler in the league last year despite being like maybe slightly above average in terms of like what is NFL quarterback athleticism.

46:21Robert Mays: And I wonder if he's just an outlier example. And he could be, yeah. But it's also, it's interesting to me where we have all these examples recently over the last four or five years of these quarterbacks getting these second opportunities at 27, 28 years old, and they're more fully formed as passers. And that's, I think, one of the reasons that we've seen this wave of second chance guys come in and really make a difference. is there a world where your feel for the position can actually make you a better scrambler as you get deeper into your career than you might have been even if you were a better athlete at 22 23 i don't know if i'm ready to say that yet baker mayfield may just be like a a weird example of this but maybe maybe if you just have a better feel for that space and timing and everything else even as you get a little bit deeper it's not just about improving as a passer can you improve just as a player in the pocket and the timing and everything else that comes along with that overall.

47:12So this is interesting because ultimately the good scramblers outside of the pure athleticism, what makes them good is, is they know when a play's dead at the right time,

47:22Robert Mays: but some is a very good, was, was a very good example of this for most of the season. Exactly. And like, but some quarterbacks don't respond to whatever that trigger is in the same way. Like some quarterbacks might feel that and then they'll just check the ball down or they'll immediately throw it away and so for some guys that doesn't develop into scrambling like I actually think especially down the stretch of this last year and especially in the Super Bowl actually Sam Darnold did a really good job of like the play's dead just I don't ruin this play and like guys being able to learn that I think is really important and so again it manifests for guys in different ways but scrambling can be one of those avenues all right before we move on let's take one more quick break.

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49:33Robert Mays: I've got two more. I've got one that's more general and then one that's a specific point. I'll do the specific point about a specific guy first. I want to be clear about how this came about and why I landed on this. I know that I am not a reliable narrator when it comes to this. This is driven by what other people are saying. I can't believe how people are already talking about Ben Johnson. I can't believe how fast it happened. And this is driven by a few different things. Multiple people, peers, people I really admire, respect, have done like coaching ranking shows over the last two weeks. Mina did one.

50:13Robert Mays: Greg Rosenthal and those guys did one over at NFL Daily. I can't remember exactly where they landed on the draft that Greg Jordan and Ali did. But the one that Mina and Shield did, I'm pretty sure they had Ben Johnson as like the fourth best coach in the league. and he's showing up there in all of these lists and no one really is like yeah that's wrong have you i don't think anyone's responding to it that way be more shocked if he fell out of like the top six somehow in anyone's like rankings or draft or whatever it would be so that happened right so now people are just talking about him as a top five coach in the nfl and bella just said he thinks that greg and jordan had him fifth so top five and again people that do a lot of thinking about this.

50:56Robert Mays: If that was it, if it was just us nerds that were sitting there and be like, man, Ben Johnson is great at this. That would be one thing. I can't tell you what wild shit people have said to me about him this spring. And this is people that have coached with him. This is people that have coached against him. This is people that have nothing to do with him. I mean, there are coaches I'm talking to at the combine, offensive coordinators just being like, yeah every week I'm queuing up like what their run game looked like and just seeing what they did why they did it his understanding of front mechanics how to manipulate that stuff is just on an entirely different level this is like unprompted that this just comes up in conversation I had a coach that's worked with him say to me in Indy when we were sitting there and he said this so matter-of-factly it was like kind of jarring to me and he goes yeah he's going to be one of the greatest coaches of all time pretty strong to just and I was like I was like what what?

51:53Robert Mays: He's like, yeah, he's going to be one of the greatest coaches of all time. And I was like, all right. That sounds great. I'd be happy if that ended up happening. And then there was somebody else last week. I was talking to him and he's just like, yeah, I think it's Sean and then Ben and then Kyle. Yeah. And so I was, I think what's interesting about that trio and really the difference between Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan and why I think Like he's probably closer to Sean McVay, not even in terms of quality, but just in terms of how this has gone down. Kyle Shanahan was really good at a lot of different stops before he got the head coaching job with the San Francisco 49ers.

52:35And then obviously year one, that roster was disgusting. He was playing with like fake quarterbacks and like we all knew it was good, but it was hard to just be like immediately that guy's one of the sexiest head coaches in the NFL. Well, with McVay, you knew a month into that thing that it was like, oh, that guy and what he can do offensively is extremely, extremely different. Obviously, they go to the Super Bowl in year two. It's like very clear that he is that sort of guy. And what Ben Johnson did with the Chicago Bears offense this year and his first time stepping into the head coaching and play calling role was like, oh, holy shit, the fact that you could do that with so many young pieces.

53:10And it's not even just that it was all the young guys, right? It was like you clearly saw Colston Loveland get better as the year went on. You saw Caleb Williams get better as the year went on. You saw Luther Burden get better as the year went on. You saw the run game go from like, how long do you think they were a bad run game? The first like two months of the year? They couldn't really figure it out. It was quicker than that.

53:29Robert Mays: It was four weeks. Their bye was four weeks in. They had that bye after the Raider game. And then they came back out of the bye and played Washington. And remember that their run game against Washington? But that's what I'm saying. They didn't walk into the season like week one, they're mashing people. It was like they couldn't find it immediately. And then he solved the problem as the year went on and they got they just continued to get better. Like it was just the fact that you so clearly saw this thing up and up and up and up over the course of the year. And having already been excited about what he was, obviously, with Detroit to get that immediate proof of concept was like it's it's really hard to quibble with how good he is like that.

54:09That dude is incredible.

54:10Robert Mays: if it was just one thing if it was our opinion of him my opinion of him if it was the media's opinion of him or if it was coach's opinions of him if it was any of those one individual things i think you are a little bit more hesitant about a little bit more cautious where it's like yeah we'll see right like this could easily go off the rails and to be clear it still can't it's been one year but just how fast and how definitive it has happened with the way that people are talking about this in the way that they're framing it and the fact that there hasn't been a ton they said what i've seen of like immediate pushback to putting him in that tier and up and with that category of guys i just think is really telling and so i again just struck by last week again having a conversation with somebody i really respect in the league and just being like yeah i think that he's already like right there like in this person listed off five play callers on offense and defense combined that they think are like the true difference makers in the league and Ben was one of those guys and so it's it really is just I can't believe how quickly that happened and how much everyone just seems to kind of be accepting the fact that it happened I mean even offensively like he would almost have to be right like I think Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan obviously deserve a spot in that in terms of that but then if we're talking offensively like he probably is that next guy what a world yeah happened fast it happened extremely fast all right what's your last one here so my last one is more team specific and this is one just looking at the so many things happen over the course of the offseason that you kind of just look up and you're like how do I really feel about some of these teams I can't believe that I don't really buy that Denver's defense is going to be able to do it again and it feels weird because it's like the same guys it's the same play caller it's most of the same players outside of John Franklin Myers but I think that there are a couple of factors here one sometimes defense can just be a little bit sticky and I think because of the way that they played that can sometimes be true where they are just like go go go all of the time I think sometimes when you're just firing hot those defenses can look insane I also think just though there were a couple of moments last year where they were really gettable like there were just teams that clearly found ways to pick on them that Giants game sticks with me the Giants game is like such a weird example of that yes the Giants game I thought the Jaguars did a fantastic job like finding what they wanted to do I know the Packers lost that game and like you know the Broncos scored 40 whatever on them I thought the Packers had a really good game plan against them like there were teams that found clear ways to pick on the Denver defense, especially down the stretch of the season in a way that I just didn't feel that with Houston.

56:57I didn't feel that with Seattle, where those teams just felt like more surefire. And so again, the Denver defense obviously was great last year. But if you look even at weeks 10 and on from last year in terms of DVOA, they were 12th in total DVOA, 9th in passing, 15th in run defense. That's still pretty good. But like, that's kind of more what I'm saying when I expect this is I don't expect them to be a bad defense next year. But I think even though they were probably widely regarded as like the third or fourth best defense in the league last year, and I think that that was true, it's probably more realistic that a defense like this that didn't really add any sort of like significant talent probably just is more like the ninth or tenth kind of defense in the NFL.

57:38Robert Mays: I think it's a great thing to point out. And even if you look at it, they were eighth in weight of defensive DVOA last year. And so if you and that's taking into account the first half of the season than weighing the second half a little bit more. But like you said, if they ended up being a, the 12th best defense in the NFL this year, or even the 10th best defense, why that's important is if you look at the last two seasons, the types of teams that have won the Super Bowl, we're at a place where these complete teams are winning the Super Bowl. But the teams that have done that as complete teams without superstar quarterbacks or without like high, high level offenses, they've been the best defense in the league.

58:13Robert Mays: They've been like truly dominant on that side of the ball and that's been their path forward so if you go from being a defense in that tier to a defense that's merely very good it should change what your realistic expectations and goals for that season might be and so trying to predict like which of these defenses is going to take that step back from being like the true difference making we are controlling how the game is being play defenses too. Yeah, they're very good. Like they're very good. They are a Super Bowl worthy defense. Those are two different groups of teams and trying to figure out which one is going to fall from the first to the second, I think is important.

58:53Robert Mays: And the Broncos might be one of those teams. And that's the thing. It will be somebody, right? Like one of those elite four or five defenses from last year will inevitably fall off to like kind of just above average and not special. But I look at who these teams are. I don't think it's going to be Houston. I don't think it's going to be Seattle. I still have a lot of faith in what those teams are doing. I think you can make a case that the Eagles defense is better now that they have Jonathan Gernard and Tariq Wollin. Like it feels like those scenarios are just a little bit more stable to me in terms of what they're getting there.

59:24Robert Mays: Yeah, the last two Super Bowl champions finished number one in defensive DVOA. The last two. Seattle did last year and then the Eagles did the year before that. And so being one of those types of defenses, we're now at a place where the offense still has to be good, But I think we've now gotten to a place where the way that the sport is being played, so many different things, you can win the Super Bowl with the 12th best offense in the league, the 10th best offense in the league, if you have the best defense or like a true, like terrifying game shifting defense. But it needs to be at that level for that version of your team build to get you to the ultimate goal.

59:58And here's a good way to like put a kind of put like a final note on that. Last year, the New Orleans Saints ended the year at 10th in defensive EPA per play. That's a pretty good defense. Do the Seattle Seahawks win the Super Bowl with the New Orleans Saints defense? Absolutely not. No, there's no way. Not even close. There's absolutely no shot. And so that gives you a long runway, but yeah.

1:00:22Robert Mays: My last one here, and again, this isn't like a criticism, but I kind of just can't believe that we're in a place where there are so many teams right now, whether it's a new play caller, whether it's a new quarterback, it's a lot of new play callers. But their plan for, like, what they wanted this year was, man, I hope this works out. Who's your list here? How many teams do you think this is? Steelers with Rodgers, right? Yep. Man, hope this works out. Even for what I said at the top of the show, it is still like, man, hope this works out. Hope this works out. This is the only option we had. Hope this works out.

1:00:59Robert Mays: Colts with Daniel Jones. Man, hope this works out. Panthers with Bryce Young. Man, hope this works out. Eagles. Be like, bring it in Sean Mannion. Well, hope that works. David Blau going to Washington, where it's like you have this hot, maybe potential hot seat staff, where it's like, man, hope this guy can get it right. Zach Robinson with the Bucs. Man, hope that works. Like that's, we have a lot of teams that kind of feel like, And this deal is obviously in year one, right? Like they're in year one of a regime. And so it's a slightly different conversation. But I think a lot of these other teams, they've reached the end of the road, whether it's with their staffs, their quarterbacks, something.

1:01:39Robert Mays: And they're just kind of in a place where like, all right, we changed one thing or we doubled down on this thing. And like with Daniel Jones, it's like, well, if he stays healthy, hope this works out. Like you are, there's a lot of hope in this. There's a lot of like, I'm hoping this version of it is different for X, Y, and Z reason. And I think some of them are justified in believing that. Like, I think that version of it can play out for some of these teams. But it's just funny to me how many of them are in this place where it's like, ah, fingers crossed at this time, it's going to be different.

1:02:09And yeah, it's funny too. Like, yeah, all of these guys are, for the most part, are all of those quarterbacks incumbent? They are, right? I guess the only one that you could maybe throw into this too, that wouldn't be is like the Vikings, right? where it's like you're taking Kyler Murray off the scrap heap and you're like, God, J.J. McCarthy was so bad last year. I hope that this guy works out.

1:02:29Robert Mays: This works out. And that's slightly different for that exact reason. But again, I think you can lump them in with the rest of these because the overall theme is still pretty similar. 100%. And like some of them are too are like, I don't even know what to do. Like the Sean Mannion to the Eagles thing one is so interesting to me because I think we've seen evidence now that when the Eagles just hire a play caller that we know is passable, the offense is incredible. They're one of the best in the league. And so I think it's interesting that they are kind of wading into pretty unknown waters again.

1:03:04And Mannion might be good at the job, I don't know. But it's just interesting that they have chosen to wade into completely unknown waters.

1:03:11Robert Mays: I guess another way of putting this is that there are a lot of these teams where we try to make it about so many things when in reality, a lot of these teams just kind of come down to, was this the right guy? Like, was this the right guy for what you're asking him to be? Like, is David Blau going to be that sort of difference maker for Washington? Is Sean Mannion going to be that for the Eagles? Like the Panthers, we can do, we talk for an hour about all the things that Panthers have done to improve their roster and the ways that they've spent and what they've built. And I think there's a lot to like about all of that.

1:03:46Robert Mays: And then it comes down to it. It's like, well, if the quarterback isn't good enough, then none of this matters. And so there's a lot of these where it's like there is one central figure associated with these teams where that guy has so much say in how this season is going to go. And even if you can understand how almost all of them arrived in this place, it still is a little bit of an uneasy feeling just being like, all right, I hope so. I think the Panthers one is that one too is like the trickiest for me in the sense that like it really is easy to buy like the upward trajectory of this team like a lot of these other teams are like kind of on a downward spiral or have had just a weird year or two like the Eagles it was a weird year last year Washington was obviously incredibly banged up and they wanted to move on from Cliff but like if you just remove what you thought the quarterback was last year and look at what the Panthers like progress has been over the last two years this is one of like the best ascending teams and rosters in the NFL and it's just like man I hope I hope that he plays well enough to make good on all of that and there's really nothing else you can do right like it's you can only change out so much like if they weren't the Kyler Murray team and it like with their build I get why they didn't want to do all that and like why you would just give the one more year to Bryce Young but it's like what else were they going to do if they weren't the Kyler Murray team you were going to draft like whoever quarterback to like you were going to draft Tyson like that doesn't make sense either for where they're at like I just it truly is a we got to hope this works out because this is where we're at and that's where a striking number of teams are and again even if I shouldn't be surprised by it uh I am a little bit I am just a little bit all right that is all we've got for today I think this is running on Tuesday so you You guys will hear this on Tuesday, the 19th.

1:05:35Robert Mays: Our next show is going to be on Thursday this week. Only three shows this week. Buying or selling the contender off seasons is our Thursday show. So be on the lookout for that. Sincerely appreciate all of you for listening. That's all we got. Talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

1:06:32We'll see you next time. and your business, and search X-E-R-O for your free trial. Conditions apply.

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